Does anyone REALLY like Street Fighter II on the PC Engine?

[TurboXray]

lol say what?!?!  the PCE could have EASILY handled hyper fighting mode(s).

What are you basing that on? To me it looks like the PCE struggles to handle the game even at normal speed. I guess we'll never know the answer, though, unless it came from the one of the original programmers' mouths, or someone gets a hacked sped-up version running on the original hardware.

I thought I posted about hacking the animation speed. There are animation sheets in the game, just like the arcade, that contain down counters for each frame. I was making them faster, for fun. The game played along just fine.

[kazekirifx]

It's based on the fact it requires ZERO or nearly zero extra CPU cycles to simply speed up a sprite animation.  For example, if you have a sprite in VRAM and the timing is such that it displays a new frame every, say, 4 game ticks/vblanks, you could just as easily set up the timing so that a new frame is displayed every 2 ticks/vblanks, or every vblank for that matter.  All the other code (collision, gamepad polling, etc.) would remain the same.  In a game like SF2, the only thing you'd need to make sure of is that your code is fast enough to load character frames from ROM > VRAM within the alotted span of game ticks between one frame to the next.  Even the largest characters in SF2 (Zangief, Sagat, M.Bison) would top out at around 3KB when uncompressed, and that's assuming they just use a square sprite block (which they don't).  So it would actually be a bit less than 3KB per character, per frame.  Then also consider that a new frame needs to be loaded into VRAM instantly anyway if you press any attack button or execute any move.  All you'd be doing is speeding up the timing between frames.  And where do you get the impression the PCE is struggling to handle SF2' CE?  There's really no slowdown to speak of and minimal flicker.  Protip: The slowdown after a KO is intentional and is there for dramatic effect.  It's also in the arcade.  ;)

Okay. I accept that explanation. I wish they had added this feature in that case.

What X68k are you playing it on though?  II' plays very nicely on a standard X68k.  Super SF II plays a bit too slow on a 10mhz machine though, but very nicely if you have 16mhz or faster.

Same with the FM Towns port.  On a 386? lol slowdown, on my 586@133mhz Fresh?  Rock solid 60fps baby.

I have the X68k ACE, which is the same processor speed as the first gen X68k. Cool. I didn't realize it runs better on the faster machines. I tend to think most X68k games are not programmed to take advantage of the faster models (which is why I went ahead and purchased an older one), but it's good to know some of the newer titles do take advantage.

It still sounds like you aren't very familiar with the PC Engine's library.

That's slander. I grew up with the PCE and own the vast majority of the PCE and TG library. I may have just recently started actively posting here due to the high amount of downtime I've had at work lately, but I was an active member of the community back in the Turbo List days.

[CrackTiger]

That's slander. I grew up with the PCE and own the vast majority of the PCE and TG library. I may have just recently started actively posting here due to the high amount of downtime I've had at work lately, but I was an active member of the community back in the Turbo List days.

Then why do you think that the PCE is so slow that you question someone saying that the PCE could handle Turbo speed and why won't you quantify what exactly it is about the PCE version of SFII' that leads you to believe that "the PCE struggles to handle the game"?

You say that we'll never know if the PCE could handle more than SFII' unless it comes from "one of the original programmers' mouths", yet as I pointed out, there are games that do much more than what SFII' does. It doesn't matter if you own or have played the specific examples I gave, I suggested even simply watching videos of them since you're judging the SFII' port by looking at it.

[kazekirifx]

Then why do you think that the PCE is so slow that you question someone saying that the PCE could handle Turbo speed and why won't you quantify what exactly it is about the PCE version of SFII' that leads you to believe that "the PCE struggles to handle the game"?

You say that we'll never know if the PCE could handle more than SFII' unless it comes from "one of the original programmers' mouths", yet as I pointed out, there are games that do much more than what SFII' does. It doesn't matter if you own or have played the specific examples I gave, I suggested even simply watching videos of them since you're judging the SFII' port by looking at it.

All right. Point taken. I grew up with the PCE, but I'll admit I don't know too much about hardware/programming. I think my reason for viewing the PCE version of SFII as "struggling" is caused mostly by occasional flickers, and probably just an assumption that the lack of adjustable speed proves its impossibility. I remember the Die Hard Gamefan review saying this game was an "incredible feat" for a system so close to its end (or something like that). I always felt lucky the game runs at all. I also owned the Genesis version and SF2 Turbo on SNES back in the day, and to me it always seemed to be running more effortlessly on those systems, but that was just my perception, of course.

Also, is it just me, or is the AI in the PCE version kind of weak? I didn't have too much trouble finishing the PCE ver. on level 8 without continuing, but could never come close to doing this on Genesis or SNES. I especially noticed some predictable patterns the boss characters followed in the PCE version which made them easy to beat if you knew them. Now that I think about it, I think I also assumed back in the day that this weak AI might also be caused by hardware limitations. I think now it's more likely to be lazy AI programming, or is the easiness of the PCE version my imagination?

[SuperGrafx16]

I love the Sharp X68000 version because it is arcade-exact in every way ^__^

[kazekirifx]

I love the Sharp X68000 version because it is arcade-exact in every way ^__^

No. It's very close, but "exact in every way" is pushing it. X68k ports have (virtually) identical graphics to their arcade originals due to the resolution and color palette, but the hardware is still not identical to the original arcade boards, and the games still need to be reprogrammed. In the case of SF2, the X68k's single ADPCM channel is also a bit insufficient to handle both the music and SFX. (Of course, this is not an issue with MIDI support. But if you use MIDI, the music sounds less like the arcade original than the FM synth - though it may sound better depending on your preference.)

I do agree, though, that the X68k version is a very close port, and probably the best one in existence at the time.... IF you have one one of the faster X68k models and hard drive.

[majors]

I love the [blah blah blah] version because it is arcade-exact in every way ^__^

I'll stick with the CPS1 release, because it IS arcade. It's really nice with the optional Capcom Impress attachment.

[soop]

I love the [blah blah blah] version because it is arcade-exact in every way ^__^

I'll stick with the CPS1 release, because it IS arcade. It's really nice with the optional Capcom Impress attachment.

It's not the arcade version unless it smells of cigarettes, there's a queue of people waiting behind you and you don't know what a "hadoken" is, or how to do one.

[Nando]

SURE YOU CAN!

[SuperDeadite]

I love the Sharp X68000 version because it is arcade-exact in every way ^__^

No. It's very close, but "exact in every way" is pushing it. X68k ports have (virtually) identical graphics to their arcade originals due to the resolution and color palette, but the hardware is still not identical to the original arcade boards, and the games still need to be reprogrammed. In the case of SF2, the X68k's single ADPCM channel is also a bit insufficient to handle both the music and SFX. (Of course, this is not an issue with MIDI support. But if you use MIDI, the music sounds less like the arcade original than the FM synth - though it may sound better depending on your preference.)

I do agree, though, that the X68k version is a very close port, and probably the best one in existence at the time.... IF you have one one of the faster X68k models and hard drive.

How much RAM do you have?  More RAM+16mhz = ADPCM driver loads up, and then you don't get the sound issue anymore, though I love the MIDI personally (I use Roland CM-64).  Games don't have to be programmed to use the 16mhz, the machine just runs everything faster.  It helps a lot with some games, even an old game like Salamander runs 100% slowdown free at 16mhz (the arcade slows down to a crawl, I own it).     A few games run too fast at 16mhz, but not many. 

I adore the FM Towns port though, the redbook music is fantastic, and it's silky smooth if you have a powerful Towns to run it on.

[spenoza]

I love the [blah blah blah] version because it is arcade-exact in every way ^__^

I'll stick with the CPS1 release, because it IS arcade. It's really nice with the optional Capcom Impress attachment.

OK, I'll bite. What is the Capcom Impress attachment?

[kazekirifx]

How much RAM do you have?  More RAM+16mhz = ADPCM driver loads up, and then you don't get the sound issue anymore, though I love the MIDI personally (I use Roland CM-64). 

Not a RAM issue. The system only has one ADPCM channel. That's the issue. When playing with FM music, ADPCM parts of the music cut out whenever a voice or ADPCM sound effect is played. Not an issue when using MIDI for the music.

[esteban]

I love the [blah blah blah] version because it is arcade-exact in every way ^__^

I'll stick with the CPS1 release, because it IS arcade. It's really nice with the optional Capcom Impress attachment.

OK, I'll bite. What is the Capcom Impress attachment?

Cook says,"Ditto!"

[kakutolives]

coincidence as it may be. this game just turned into the first pc engine HuCARD game in my collection! I ended up getting it for 5 bucks plus shipping

/29dh4sn.jpg

[Nando]

Ok, ok so when do we get into the discussion of different arcade cabinets and different sound and monitor set ups? which one was THE TRUE SF experience? The arcade I think was way better than the arcade version.....

[CrackTiger]

Aside from having to fool around with multiple floppies and different hardware configurations, the X68000 version was definitely the second crappiest port for the time, bested only by JapJac's CPS Changer port.

But at least the CPS Changer is a console and not a computer, so I think it's safe to say that the CPSC port is the king of home versions and completely desyroys the lousy X68K version. But the 16-bit console versions are far more impressive ports.

[majors]

OK, I'll bite. What is the Capcom Impress attachment?

Cook says,"Ditto!"

/arcade/impress.jpg

[Starfighter]

You give me that! You give it to me now! I always wanted an Egret II, and that looks just like one! You know.. Minus the lame stuff on top. ;)

[CrackTiger]

OK, I'll bite. What is the Capcom Impress attachment?

Cook says,"Ditto!"

/arcade/impress.jpg

Personally, I've always found those kinds of cabinets pretty gross, especially for games that predate them. Playing on one feels like playing emulation to me.

The day (pre-PCE version release) that I committed myself to owning the arcade, I was determined to have it in the cabinet I considered definitive for it-

[soop]

I like the red one more, but I do like the japanese style cabs for certain things.  I saw some guy on youtube who collected naomi shooting cabs, and they looked fantastic.

However, the one thing I do remember from the arcade were the little instuctional cartoons.  I'd need to have those on my perfect cab.

This is the closest I can find to illustrate my point, but I remember them being somewhere, maybe above the screen on the cab:

[Nando]

we used to skip school and go to the local donut guy who had MK and a SFII cabinet.

This cabinet to be exact 

Street Fighter Alpha 3 playing on a Street Fighter 2 machine
lost: /P2280018.JPG (Source)

[spenoza]

That is the exact cabinet on which I played it way back when I first discovered the game, at a minigolf place in Indiana.

[Joe Redifer]

Nando owns the the very same physical cabinet you played in a different state?

[RegalSin]

Everytime I look an arcade cab a sense of joy, pops up inside me. Not nostlagia but something else.

[kazekirifx]

Too bad that cab doesn't have the original game in it! 

[Tatsujin]

that cab looks so uber cheesy, it just turns in to cool again.

[CrackTiger]

I have a World Warrior cabinet that I bought with the game for like $75. After cleaning and repainting the cabinet, I was taking the newspaper off of the control panel when it slipped and yanked the wires. Ever since only a couple directions and a button or two work for either player's controls. But it still looks cool on advertise mode and I can pop the board into my CE cabinet whenever I want to play the actual game.

[OldMan]

I have a World Warrior cabinet that I bought with the game for like $75. After cleaning and repainting the cabinet, I was taking the newspaper off of the control panel when it slipped and yanked the wires. Ever since only a couple directions and a button or two work for either player's controls. But it still looks cool on advertise mode and I can pop the board into my CE cabinet whenever I want to play the actual game.

If the board plays fine in another cabinet, you just screwed up the wires and/or switches. Get an ohm meter and make sure the wires are okay, then check the switches. It might take a couple of hours, but you should be able to
get that running again cheap.

Kinda reminds me of when I worked in an arcade. The boss was gonna trash a SFII CE board, and said I could have it if I could get it to work. 1 20-pin connector and 2 hours later, and I had it going.
Too bad he lied. But when he moved the game back out, I made sure to take the connector back

[soop]

Man, my 2 Street Fighter II stories...

I own an original PCB from a place I used to hang out with arcade games.  Unfortunately, I couldn't get to it before 2 of my friends had kicked the shit out of it.  Looks like one of the chips burned out, but it's not really gonna come back to life now.

Second story:  Me and a friend went to this club and they had a Street Fighter II machine.  We put in our money and started to fight, but I noticed my side was broken - I couldn't move back (or block) and some of the kicks didn't work.  Well I started abusing the stick and noticed the stick panel was loose.  I flipped it over, and there were some jumpers loose, so I plugged them in, and got them all in the right place first time!  There was also a plastic cup someone had jammed in there to collect anyy coins inserted, so I collected my repair fee (about £5), split it with my friend, and had a couple of free beers each and a game of Street Fighter

[majors]

The day (pre-PCE version release) that I committed myself to owning the arcade, I was determined to have it in the cabinet I considered definitive for it-

I picked up one of those with an Atomiswave inside. Decent cab, 25" Dynamo (if I recall) but with a little flare in the rear (um...no homo?) I sold it to someone, somewhere after I swapped the AW with something else. Once you go candy, you don't go back.

If we are gonna really get into "best cab"...

Head-to-head at it's best.

Second story:  ...

That is awesome, good story.

[JoshTurboTrollX]

To answer the OP's question- hell yes I like the PCE port of SFII CE!!

If I'm in the mood for Street Fighter in the midst of Xanadu or Ninja Spirit game time, all I have to do is pop in the chubby little HuCard, rather than getting another console set up. 

[SignOfZeta]

Personally, I've always found those kinds of cabinets pretty gross, especially for games that predate them. Playing on one feels like playing emulation to me.

The day (pre-PCE version release) that I committed myself to owning the arcade, I was determined to have it in the cabinet I considered definitive for it-

I have no idea what you are talking about here. The fiberglass Japanese-style machines pack maximum monitor as close to the user as possible in the minimum amount of space, the allow for sit down play, and they have controls which destroy that Happ garbage. I don't know what you mean SFII  "pre-dating" them either. The Versus City was practically invented for Super Street Fighter IIX.

BTW, I don't like the Versus City since its almost impossible to punch your opponent, shoulder bump him off his stool, or even have him hear your verbal insults. Its like playing in a vacuum. Not very SF, IMO. You're supposed to be uncomfortably close to your opponent while playing fighting games.

As for "gross" that would be the American machines made from MDF, which by this point is all rotting and full of squirrel shit. Also, even though way more people smoke in Japan they seem much less likely to put their cigarettes out on the control panel.

Honestly, its kind of like saying you prefer the American cover of Victory Run only because that's what you were familiar with at the time of release, despite that fact that it a) sucks, and b) isn't original.

[Nando]

Nando owns the the very same physical cabinet you played in a different state?

'

I'm in your mindz stealing yuz memoriez!

[soop]

BTW, I don't like the Versus City since its almost impossible to punch your opponent, shoulder bump him off his stool, or even have him hear your verbal insults.

I nearly said the same thing.  I do prefer the crappy American cabs though, as a nostalgia thing.  The Japanese ones look nice with some games, but they seem... Kind of sanitised, like it's something you'd see at a bowling alley or a multiplex cinema, rather than a true-blue arcade.  Plus there's not much distinction between them.  It would be like buying games that came in a clear case without any artwork showing.

[spenoza]

I like both kinds of cabs. I think for a game I'm gonna tear through in 15-30 minutes I'd prefer to stand up rather than sit down. If I had a cab I was using for home console games, then I'd want a sit-down style.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I like standing up.  Usually turns into bowing forward and leaning my junkregion against the cabinet to hold myself up, but I still like it.


It feels good to rub against my Tron cabinet.  I DO IT ALOT.

I hate seeing cabinets with cigarette burns on them.   Fuck those people.

[soop]

I like both kinds of cabs. I think for a game I'm gonna tear through in 15-30 minutes I'd prefer to stand up rather than sit down. If I had a cab I was using for home console games, then I'd want a sit-down style.

It might actually look nicer in a home, and if you're gonna be playing different games, maybe you don't want branding.

As far as crappy cabs go, I remember there was a whole website about terrible homemade cabs.. this may be it, but it's blocked so I don't know
http://www.wickedretarded.com/%7Ecrapmame/

[Arkhan Asylum]

^^^ That MAME site is completely awesome.   PAC MATT IS TAKING THE FUCK OFF.

[esteban]

Call me crazy, but I prefer standing up. Humans can stand for HOURS at a time, especially when MegaZone is involved.

I like both kinds of cabs. I think for a game I'm gonna tear through in 15-30 minutes I'd prefer to stand up rather than sit down. If I had a cab I was using for home console games, then I'd want a sit-down style.

It might actually look nicer in a home, and if you're gonna be playing different games, maybe you don't want branding.

As far as crappy cabs go, I remember there was a whole website about terrible homemade cabs.. this may be it, but it's blocked so I don't know
http://www.wickedretarded.com/%7Ecrapmame/

I love this one.

[spenoza]

Back on the Street Fighter II' discussion, to help allay kazekiri's fears that the PCE is somehow struggling with SFII', let me attempt to recall past discussions of PCE chip audio. I think I've seen the numbers 5-10% as to how much of a hit the CPU takes with complex PSG audio engines handling music. The SNES and Genny both have audio co-processors that do all the heavy lifting with sound, but the PCE does the audio work right in the CPU. That means the Hu6280 CPU in the PCE is likely taking a 5-10% overhead for the audio in SFII' (and all other HuCard games with quality audio engines, and some CD games, too). The PCE is clearly keeping up just fine, despite having a minor CPU handicap.

Anyone know specifically about how much the audio in SFII' taps the CPU, outside of these estimates I've seen bandied about in the past?

[TurboXray]

Back on the Street Fighter II' discussion, to help allay kazekiri's fears that the PCE is somehow struggling with SFII', let me attempt to recall past discussions of PCE chip audio. I think I've seen the numbers 5-10% as to how much of a hit the CPU takes with complex PSG audio engines handling music. The SNES and Genny both have audio co-processors that do all the heavy lifting with sound, but the PCE does the audio work right in the CPU. That means the Hu6280 CPU in the PCE is likely taking a 5-10% overhead for the audio in SFII' (and all other HuCard games with quality audio engines, and some CD games, too). The PCE is clearly keeping up just fine, despite having a minor CPU handicap.

Anyone know specifically about how much the audio in SFII' taps the CPU, outside of these estimates I've seen bandied about in the past?

I just looked at the DDA interrupt routine in the debugger and it looks like for a single sample being played, it clocked in at 15% cpu resource. For two samples (drums from music and punch sample) it clocked in at 25% cpu resource. I only measured using the debugger time stamp. But I did it at a point where the BG area had no hsync calls (so hsync wasn't artificially inflating it). Not sure how much the PSG music routine takes up itself.

 I also did a quick load test on the game:

It runs the whole game at twice the speed. Since the game moves soo fast, use the music as a guide (since it's playing twice as fast) to judge if there's slowdown. Though, this isn't a true test of the SF2 game engine - because there's other stuff being done that's redundant and eating up more CPU resource than it would normally for double the speed. For instance, you wouldn't update the SAT twice as much, or do twice as many line scrolls (this include two title bars), run the PSG engine twice as much, etc. That and it's uploading vram twice as much too (a potential 4 player frames in a single NTSC frame).

 Edit:

 Here's another video showing off hacking the animation timing sheet:

The video doesn't play at full speed on youtube, so I did a frame by frame advancement near the end. Both players are having their frames updated once per frame in vram. I hacked it so there was zero delay between frames of the 'resting' animation. What does that mean? It means the game engine has no problem updating any play frame (and both) in a single frame.

[nat]

It's mildly comical that the console's stigma as "just a lowly 8-bit machine" is enough to warp people's perceptions so they actually think they're witnessing the system "struggle" to play SFII at full speed.

[spenoza]

I just looked at the DDA interrupt routine in the debugger and it looks like for a single sample being played, it clocked in at 15% cpu resource. For two samples (drums from music and punch sample) it clocked in at 25% cpu resource. I only measured using the debugger time stamp. But I did it at a point where the BG area had no hsync calls (so hsync wasn't artificially inflating it). Not sure how much the PSG music routine takes up itself.

Geez... Why do samples put such a drain on the CPU? The PCE could have used an audio co-processor, that much seems certain.

[Joe Redifer]

It's mildly comical that the console's stigma as "just a lowly 8-bit machine" is enough to warp people's perceptions so they actually think they're witnessing the system "struggle" to play SFII at full speed.

Well  have you noticed that it takes the PCE version .002 seconds longer from when you press RUN on the title screen to get to the character select screen than the other versions?  This is clearly because of the shitty 8-bitness of the machine.  I'm surprised the title screen doesn't start falling apart or something.

[CrackTiger]

It's cool that even with such a heavy hit to the cpu to run samples with the engine NEC used, combined with all that extra stuff Tom has it doing at Turbo speed, the PCE still handles it all. Makes nat's point all the more comical.

[TurboXray]

I just looked at the DDA interrupt routine in the debugger and it looks like for a single sample being played, it clocked in at 15% cpu resource. For two samples (drums from music and punch sample) it clocked in at 25% cpu resource. I only measured using the debugger time stamp. But I did it at a point where the BG area had no hsync calls (so hsync wasn't artificially inflating it). Not sure how much the PSG music routine takes up itself.

Geez... Why do samples put such a drain on the CPU? The PCE could have used an audio co-processor, that much seems certain.

Part of it is that the samples are compressed. Not loss-y (not that it matters), but they're bit packed. So it takes cpu resource right there (on every call) to shift, test, OR, etc. The routine itself isn't optimized either. Funny, cause the DDA routine/TIMER interrupt actually sits in ram (all the code) - yet they don't do any self modifying code (some PCE games do use self modifying code that I've seen). If they kept the samples at uncompressed 8bit, they could have gotten the dual sample output down to the 15% range (without optimizing the rest of the code). In comparison, Air Zonk also uses sample compression (lossy and RLE variant) and for a single channel it clocks in at up to 21% cpu resource. So SF2 is doing alright in comparison to that game, that's putting out samples for both channels. But yeah, it's still quite a bit of cpu resource there.