Just picked up a Sony 4K TV and thought I share some comparison between the OSSC & Framemeister. OSSC is at 5X line and Framemeister is with the firebandx turbo profile settings. The OSSC has a 3 frame input lag vs the 4 frame with a Framemeister on my set. In conclusion, the OSSC is only 1 frame faster in terms of lag but the framemeister has better picture quality imo. Also the picture quality using the ossc on a 1080p HDTV is not much better than direct component since it's only works on 2x line on those set.
Direct Component Vid to 4K:
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/70c2/3215oc76ev52e8g4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/3215oc76ev52e8g/DSC4401.jpg)
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/17c1/8r4x1d995lx08934g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/8r4x1d995lx0893/DSC4402.jpg)
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/790e/farzga4mfo9sdmq4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/farzga4mfo9sdmq/DSC4404.jpg)
Component Vid via OSSC:
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/65b5/7xr6uvqtuw35llh4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/7xr6uvqtuw35llh/_DSC4405.jpg)
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/67e7/2d336qgoc26j0s64g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/2d336qgoc26j0s6/_DSC4406.jpg)
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/2472/aizid266e0cvclw4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/aizid266e0cvclw/_DSC4408.jpg)
RGB VIA OSSC:
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/de1f/7s48lz4c91sjfci4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/7s48lz4c91sjfci/_DSC4409.jpg)
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/e7b5/17079jpx27wq2r54g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/17079jpx27wq2r5/_DSC4410.jpg)
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/eb7a/6qjd15cco1sx5kq4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/6qjd15cco1sx5kq/_DSC4413.jpg)
COMPONENT VID VIA FRAMEMEISTER:
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/f12d/8q2y8zjyyh0h7up4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/8q2y8zjyyh0h7up/_DSC4414.jpg)
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/2830/gf8iaggpbkcohcx4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/gf8iaggpbkcohcx/_DSC4415.jpg)
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/c494/s6tl95jvi7fue1r4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/s6tl95jvi7fue1r/_DSC4418.jpg)
RGB VIA FRAMEMEISTER:
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/cc1c/uduersg72uo7au94g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/uduersg72uo7au9/_DSC4419.jpg)
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/5e97/bi4f9p367y3mtoj4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/bi4f9p367y3mtoj/_DSC4420.jpg)
(http://www.mediafire.com/convkey/5ccc/zdbu4zddz1wp70a4g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/view/zdbu4zddz1wp70a/_DSC4421.jpg)
Wait, FM has vastly more lag than the earlier models? Fucking...why? Are you sure? I though being three frames faster than any XRGB would require time travel into the future.
I was all about the frameister and upscalers but then I noticed how much more I enjoyed games on a crt. I got a pvm and sold all my scalers.
I have since modded a 27" Sony triniton for RGB scart and that is my go to tv for all games prior to dreamcast. I remember playing gate of thunder on the xrgb and the lag really annoyed me. I have not tried the OSSC which I hear is pretty good.
I can't see anything. Photobucket as declared war against the internet.
Quote from: ginoscope on 11/26/2017, 04:44 PMI was all about the frameister and upscalers but then I noticed how much more I enjoyed games on a crt. I got a pvm and sold all my scalers.
I have since modded a 27" Sony triniton for RGB scart and that is my go to tv for all games prior to dreamcast. I remember playing gate of thunder on the xrgb and the lag really annoyed me. I have not tried the OSSC which I hear is pretty good.
Its a placebo effect. I tested this theory myself.
I ran an upscaler into a CRT VGA monitor. You get all the tingles.
I sometimes wonder if it's EMF brain interference that draws people to CRTs. That and the glow.
I still use my upscaler because playing on a 60" screen and surround sound is fucking cool.
Quote from: guest on 11/26/2017, 06:42 PMQuote from: ginoscope on 11/26/2017, 04:44 PMI was all about the frameister and upscalers but then I noticed how much more I enjoyed games on a crt. I got a pvm and sold all my scalers.
I have since modded a 27" Sony triniton for RGB scart and that is my go to tv for all games prior to dreamcast. I remember playing gate of thunder on the xrgb and the lag really annoyed me. I have not tried the OSSC which I hear is pretty good.
Its a placebo effect. I tested this theory myself.
I ran an upscaler into a CRT VGA monitor. You get all the tingles.
I sometimes wonder if it's EMF brain interference that draws people to CRTs. That and the glow.
I still use my upscaler because playing on a 60" screen and surround sound is fucking cool.
Yeah you are probably right that it's placebo. I do agree about the sound I have a nice two channel amp that I connect to my retro systems. Lots of people worry all about the picture and use tv speakers for audio.
Quote from: crazydean on 11/26/2017, 05:14 PMI can't see anything. Photobucket as declared war against the internet.
Sorry, moved the pictures to another hosting site. Should be working now.
There is an atmospheric effect achieved only from CRT.
It's that ambient glow, that weird humming that indicates that the CRT device is on it's way to death, and that weird feeling, like when a TV is on and you can feel it even though you can't see or hear it.
All of that stuff is what people really are talking about when they say they prefer the CRT over an LCD monitor that's been upscaled. They just never stopped to think about it.
You can set an upscaler + fancy ass LED TV to look the same as a CRT in terms of clarity/scanlines... but it doesn't produce that same glow/feeling, so people automatically assume anything else is inferior.
It's kind of funny to watch the people in FB groups lose their shit about CRTs and PVMs. They've gone snobbing to the point where it's like OH I CANT PLAY GAMES ON A CONSUMER GRADE CRT EVEN ANYMORE.
and im over here with an NES going through a VCR to a Mangavox TV from like 1989 like "yeah whatever fucktards"
Perfectly square pixels never existed before LCDs. It's completely unnatural.
"Placebo effect " means there is no real effect and that's just retarded, I don't know what you're even on.
The main drive for these things is historic. In the 2000s a bunch of morons allowed The Man to brainwash them into thinking they needed a super thin flat panel display and they threw away their Sony and JVC and Toshiba sets to replace them with Walmart crapola because ANY flat panel was good. What good is thin? Well, nothing. They sure don't save one mm of space since the sets are so huge they take up an entire wall of your fucking house.
Then years down the road they noticed that everything looks like shit on this display and the lag makes it unplayable. We'll ignore "sound bars" and the weird fad/scam that has come from that (selling decent TV speakers separately from the TV)
Then insert thousands of dollars worth of add-on machines that more or less fail to deliver what EVERYONE had for free, and I can't explain this enough to the 12 year olds...EVERYONE HAD LAG FREE GAMING ON THE TURBO when it came out. Where did the lag come from?
Created wants.
Thanks for fixing those pictures. I don't really see a difference in quality between the OSSC and Frameister. However, the component/RGB comparison is much more than I expected.
Quote from: SignOfZeta on 11/27/2017, 02:08 AMPerfectly square pixels never existed before LCDs. It's completely unnatural.
Yeah... you can rig up upscaled crap to have the same aspect ratio as if it were on a CRT. You can even run them on a CRT monitor. The one year at CCAG, I had my PCE going thru an XRGB to a PC CRT monitor from like 2001 or so.
People were like YEAHHHHHHHH THIS THE REAL SHIT, CRT FOR LIFE and I just laughed inside.
Quote"Placebo effect " means there is no real effect and that's just retarded, I don't know what you're even on.
That's not the right word probably.
What I mean is that there's people who act like they can't play a game unless it's on a CRT.
Even if you have a game setup with no discernible lag, completely playable on a properly setup upscale'd setup, they will sit there and do that CRT PVM wank bullshit.
I don't really know what you want to call it, but it's gotten to the point where there's that idiotic pocket of people who won't even game on a CRT TV. It has to be a broadcast grade Sony PVMLGBTQ or whatever.
That's where my "placebo" thing was going really. People are fucking stupid if they act like they can't play NES unless it's on an RGB modded fucktardbox 900003202309$ PVM.
It'll play the same on a POS RCA from Goodwill with an RF box. They'll go "THERE, THAT'S BETTER" when you put the same crap on an overpriced PVM with probably fucked geometry.
That mentality goes into upscaled setups some as well when people act like they just can't do it and refuse to play a game because it's not on a CRT.
Honestly if you have an XRGB3 or even an FM and can feel the lag, you set it up wrong. There's lag, sure, and you'll see it with those test programs, but unless you have MegaTism
TM or are a robot, you won't notice otherwise.
The exception might be fighting games, but I don't know. I've never watched two spazzes try to duke it out on an upscaled setup.
QuoteWhat good is thin? Well, nothing. They sure don't save one mm of space since the sets are so huge they take up an entire wall of your fucking house.
well, the one perk is the weight when it comes to moving one. Granted, if you have some massive ass TV, you still need help because you can't physically wrap your arms across it to hold it..
I sold a few Commodore monitors and it got me an XRGB3. I've had people go on and on about "omfg lag" with upscalers, and well,
I played through Tatsujin on PCE, can do fine in those Kirby showdowns, wiggle around bullethell stuff fine, and a bunch of other precise-crap using it, so I don't know what the fuck the big deal is.
Maybe I am lucky. I've had great experience with my XRGB3 to the point where the only perk I am getting playing on a CRT in the other room is that I can feel that weird static when I sit close, and it all looks fucking goony because it's running through a VCR and out from Coax to the TV, so it's like glowing hilariously.
It's hard to find anything elitist about advocating scrap-bound TVs from 20 years ago...but sometimes I get that from people. Like...they make it seem like owning a CRT is as expensive and as much of a commitment as owning a vintage Ferrari or something. "Just not practical" they say but for no specific reason. (This coming from people who are running out of HD space for all the pictures and videos they've taken with their cardboard box collections.) I don't know what the "upkeep" thing is, like you have to lube and balance a CRT every three months or something. It's just just a damned TV. Your grandmother managed to own and operate the things for decades and she never even learned to read. Think about that.
My secondary CRT at the moment is basically perfect and I got it for free this year, Toshiba. It's about the same volume, slightly more, as that hot air cooker I got for XMas three years ago which cost who knows what and is definitely a created want, as is looking for fixes for games looking terrible on screens 16 times the size of the largest thing existent when the game was made.
"I've deliberately driven my lowered Vette down the roughest road possible and I will buy all the tires and rims and shocks and control arms I need to keep blasting down it rather than go back home and get the station wagon which I know from experience soaks up all the bumps like they weren't even there. As you can see, I'm in a terrific hurry to go absolutely fucking nowhere, this is important."
If you have room in your life, both physically and psychically, for complete game collections and a 70" TV you have room for an old Commodore monitor.
That's not placebo, it's PVM snobbery.
It's awesome that these clunky, hard-to-recycle consumer CRTs are finding new lives with gamers and people should embrace that. When you can find a cheap or free consumer set with S-video and component, and use cables you probably already have, why disparage someone that doesn't want to spend hundreds of dollars on a monitor, new cables, switcher, etc. to get that extra 10% that they'll get with a PVM or BVM (and basically limit themselves to 20" or smaller)?
Quote from: SignOfZeta on 11/27/2017, 04:53 AMIf you have room in your life, both physically and psychically, for complete game collections and a 70" TV you have room for an old Commodore monitor.
Agreed, and in most cases that footprint is already being taken up by a shelf, TV stand, etc. I have 7 systems and a MAME PC connected up to a 20" PVM and a modest set of computer speakers, taking up less than 3'x3' of floor space in the corner of the room. The stand I'm using could fit a 27" CRT easily.
The real thing is people love to do everything but actually play games. This includes arguing about which display method is superior. Just this last year I've played through games on a pvm, consumer trinitron and upscaled on an flat panel pc monitor. It's all pretty much the same experience. Anyone that thinks they need to play it one way is just fooling themselves.
Quote from: SignOfZeta on 11/27/2017, 04:53 AMas is looking for fixes for games looking terrible on screens 16 times the size of the largest thing existent when the game was made.
Completely agree. I don't care how much quality upscaling I have at my fingertips, I do not want to play a PC Engine game on a 90'' monstrosity. The aforementioned monitor I use is 24''.
I personally prefer how games look in a CRT as opposed to LCD through upscaler, because of the aforementioned "glow" that the CRT gives the graphics. Although not as extreme, it is akin to the difference between playing Vectrex on that ipad emulator versus the real thing.
With that said, I like the OSSC better for RGB 240P sources, in comparison to the Framemeister. Main reason is that the interface is much cleaner and the colors seem to be closer to what I can get in the CRT. Might be placebo effect, but I also feel like it is more responsive than going through the FM.
The FM I only use for 480i PS2 through component and the PSP GO for native PSP games full screen. 480i is definitely the OSSC achilles heel, so the FM is still the best choice for deinterlacing.
I have a very small space for my "game room", as I have to share it with a home office and a mini music studio, and still was able to fit a 20" CRT and a 32" LCD, so it is possible with a little planning.
(https://preview.ibb.co/j0OgdR/IMG_20171027_164841971.jpg)
Quote from: SignOfZeta on 11/27/2017, 04:53 AMIt's hard to find anything elitist about advocating scrap-bound TVs from 20 years ago...but sometimes I get that from people. Like...they make it seem like owning a CRT is as expensive and as much of a commitment as owning a vintage Ferrari or something. "Just not practical" they say but for no specific reason. (This coming from people who are running out of HD space for all the pictures and videos they've taken with their cardboard box collections.) I don't know what the "upkeep" thing is, like you have to lube and balance a CRT every three months or something. It's just just a damned TV. Your grandmother managed to own and operate the things for decades and she never even learned to read. Think about that.
When CRT+elitism comes up, it's never about actual TVs. It's about those dinguses that scoff at a fully functional 30" Zenith in favor of a 9" BVM.
Funny enough, the CRT I hooked my VCR up to was my grandparents. It's the one I used to play NES on at their house, and Sega CD when I would drag it there to finish Lunar 2.
I didn't get rid of my CRT televisions. I just moved them to another room since home entertainment and new consoles went HD, so having the main setup by the couch required something that wasn't the Sanyo CRT.
The XRGB3 sits at that TV so I can conveniently jam something into it and play stuff. I don't keep all my old shit hooked up simultaneously anymore because I got tired of wall-wart Tetris, and RF box daisy chain tai-chi. I plug in the one I am playing and the rest sit on a shelf nearby.
QuoteMy secondary CRT at the moment is basically perfect and I got it for free this year, Toshiba. It's about the same volume, slightly more, as that hot air cooker I got for XMas three years ago which cost who knows what and is definitely a created want, as is looking for fixes for games looking terrible on screens 16 times the size of the largest thing existent when the game was made.
If you have room in your life, both physically and psychically, for complete game collections and a 70" TV you have room for an old Commodore monitor.
lol. I dumped all my commodore / rgb monitors because they will inevitably die and suck to replace. Replacing a basic ass TV is simple though. Just drive around the block on garbage night and you'll find one.
People that go chasing dragons with PVMs and shit are basically retarded. Watching people drop 500$+ on a like, 10" screen that was in constant use at a broadcast place is hilarious. they all need serviced and shit. That high pitched hngggggggggggggggggg noise isn't "the glory days". It's your overpriced screen begging for help.
They post pics and go CHECK OUT MY PVM SCORE, and its like yeah buddy, check out that / \ or )( or () shaped screen. You did it buddy. Nailed it.
My absolute favorite is when they post pics of their screen that got shipped to them via UPS, packed by an idiot, and it shows up in pieces.
I've gone back and done sanity checks myself. Recently, I hooked up an SNES to XRGB3+60" TV, and then to a PVM I recently sold, and then to my 27" Sanyo via composite and RF.
Unless you're doing a side by side comparison, it's a whole lot of "who fucking cares" when you get right down to it.
Nothing about the PVM made me think "shit, I better keep this". The 350$ I got for it was way cooler than the image quality.
It's almost like when you go to the eye doctor and he's like "whats better, 1, or 2?" and you just pick one because you can't tell.
I'm going to start streaming shit running through RF on this magnavox TV just to see how many RGBPVMBLTADHD people I can get upset all at once.
I might even twist the RF box a little so it goes staticky. Who knows. The sky's the limit.
There are a couple of things I really like about the PVM as opposed to a consumer CRT, besides its marginal increase in image quality:
-its flat on the sides, so its very easy and safe to flip for vertical/tate gaming.
-its got every connection needed, composite, svideo, component and RGB. If you dont care for RGB, then this is definitely a moot point...
I do agree that just the marginal increase in image quality is probably not worth the extra cost. I paid $100 for mine and feel like the cost is justified, even if it only lasts me a couple more years. Then I can try to find another one or a consumer CRT for cheap. If not, the OSSC or other scaling solution will do. It's always good to have choices.
Nice comparo pics. Both upscalers look good to me (either rgb or composite fed), though the framemeister has somewhat better looking colors.
As for the tube tv / pvm / lcd discussion, I don't really give a fuck what people use as long as they're actually gaming and not proselytizing about how great what they're using is and that you're a retarded asshole if you do anything else. Personally, I prefer a tube tv; the extra size and weight (vs lcd) doesn't bother me, and the additional cost of a pvm and rgb mods isn't worth it for the small improvement, not to mention the rarity of large PVMs.
I hooked a PS1 up to one of those Ikegami monitors once.
It was too good looking. It looked fucking *weird*.
I still enjoy that people thought my PCE beefcase was RGB'd on a 1084S once. It was just composite.
That's how good composite on PCE ends up being. The RGB jump wasn't worth having my Beefcase modded, honestly.
I basically dismiss anyone when they say "consumer grade TV". Those people are dipshits.
Then they start ramblefucking about other CRT related specs. I think they enjoy that more than gaming.
The gaming just gives them another dickheaded angle to elitist-knob-polish.
BROH I GOT THIS 1200230$ BVM AND BROHHHHHHH LOOK AT MY RGB'D X68000 PC RUNNING THIS RARE BULLETHELLSHUMPLOL
"theres no controller how are you playing it"
WHAT DUDE LOOK AT THAT IMAGE. YOU CAN'T GET THIS ON A CONSUMER GRADE TV.
Yeah, I have a 1080 and everything looks great on it through composite. I just love the glow that little monitor gives. It being 13" probably has a lot to do with how great it looks.
Those Commodore monitors are pretty good. The 1080 had the best quality of any of them.
We had a 1084S with our Amiga500. I got a 1080 way later from someone and was like "shit this is way better", but it was mono so that sucked. 1084S was stereo and had a headphone jack!
My 1084S died in the middle of playing Hydlide 2, and then the 1084SD-1 died while demo'ing Atlantean at CCAG.
It was a sad time. but someone bought it broken.
Quote from: guest on 11/27/2017, 12:26 PMWhen CRT+elitism comes up, it's never about actual TVs. It's about those dinguses that scoff at a fully functional 30" Zenith in favor of a 9" BVM.
Yeah, loooool.
Quote from: guest on 11/27/2017, 12:26 PMlol. I dumped all my commodore / rgb monitors because they will inevitably die and suck to replace. Replacing a basic ass TV is simple though. Just drive around the block on garbage night and you'll find one.
People that go chasing dragons with PVMs and shit are basically retarded. Watching people drop 500$+ on a like, 10" screen that was in constant use at a broadcast place is hilarious. they all need serviced and shit. That high pitched hngggggggggggggggggg noise isn't "the glory days". It's your overpriced screen begging for help.
They post pics and go CHECK OUT MY PVM SCORE, and its like yeah buddy, check out that / \ or )( or () shaped screen. You did it buddy. Nailed it.
My absolute favorite is when they post pics of their screen that got shipped to them via UPS, packed by an idiot, and it shows up in pieces.
I've gone back and done sanity checks myself. Recently, I hooked up an SNES to XRGB3+60" TV, and then to a PVM I recently sold, and then to my 27" Sanyo via composite and RF.
Unless you're doing a side by side comparison, it's a whole lot of "who fucking cares" when you get right down to it.
Nothing about the PVM made me think "shit, I better keep this". The 350$ I got for it was way cooler than the image quality.
It's almost like when you go to the eye doctor and he's like "whats better, 1, or 2?" and you just pick one because you can't tell.
I'm going to start streaming shit running through RF on this magnavox TV just to see how many RGBPVMBLTADHD people I can get upset all at once.
I might even twist the RF box a little so it goes staticky. Who knows. The sky's the limit.
I'm pretty convinced that most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a pvm and a vga crt monitor if not for the fact that the general look is different. Just about any old pack-in monitor with a pre-built PC is going to do the job good enough for old systems.
After looking on eBay, it's probably about time to unload my PVM locally if I can. I thought you were half-joking on current prices but I see the 14'' model I have is popping for $400+ lately... And the one I have is in fantastic condition. But is it worth dealing with the fucktard responses I'm going to get. HMM.
Quote from: nopepper on 11/27/2017, 12:42 PMI do agree that just the marginal increase in image quality is probably not worth the extra cost. I paid $100 for mine and feel like the cost is justified, even if it only lasts me a couple more years. Then I can try to find another one or a consumer CRT for cheap. If not, the OSSC or other scaling solution will do. It's always good to have choices.
$100 is reasonable. Quality does cost money. But like $400 for a 14'' screen that tops out at 480i is pretty lol.
Quote from: guest on 11/27/2017, 01:23 PMI hooked a PS1 up to one of those Ikegami monitors once.
It was too good looking. It looked fucking *weird*.
I still enjoy that people thought my PCE beefcase was RGB'd on a 1084S once. It was just composite.
That's how good composite on PCE ends up being. The RGB jump wasn't worth having my Beefcase modded, honestly.
I basically dismiss anyone when they say "consumer grade TV". Those people are dipshits.
Then they start ramblefucking about other CRT related specs. I think they enjoy that more than gaming.
The gaming just gives them another dickheaded angle to elitist-knob-polish.
BROH I GOT THIS 1200230$ BVM AND BROHHHHHHH LOOK AT MY RGB'D X68000 PC RUNNING THIS RARE BULLETHELLSHUMPLOL
"theres no controller how are you playing it"
WHAT DUDE LOOK AT THAT IMAGE. YOU CAN'T GET THIS ON A CONSUMER GRADE TV.
PCE composite is hot.
Quote from: Gypsy on 11/27/2017, 01:48 PMI'm pretty convinced that most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a pvm and a vga crt monitor if not for the fact that the general look is different. Just about any old pack-in monitor with a pre-built PC is going to do the job good enough for old systems.
A decent VGA CRT monitor should crush just about any PVM/BVM in picture quality due to the finer pitch. The top-of-the-line BVMs that idiots are literally spending thousands of dollars on today were around .25mm which is similar to a halfway-decent VGA monitor. My Viewsonic 22" is .23mm and I paid $40 for it. Emulation with the right settings and filters looks insanely sharp (https://www.dropbox.com/s/1z2jqtj568tk20j/2017-10-30%2019.46.50.jpg?dl=0) on it, but for playing on original hardware, it's not necessarily cheaper than a PVM since you still need to buy an upscaler and not everyone is spending thousands of even hundreds of dollars for decent 20" PVMs.
Quote from: Gypsy on 11/27/2017, 01:48 PMAfter looking on eBay, it's probably about time to unload my PVM locally if I can. I thought you were half-joking on current prices but I see the 14'' model I have is popping for $400+ lately... And the one I have is in fantastic condition. But is it worth dealing with the fucktard responses I'm going to get. HMM.
Prices are ridiculous right now, but 14s aren't selling for $400 except maybe the L5 or BVM-D14 which are multiformat and can display up to 720p/1080i, and only desperate fools are spending even that much.
Who cares about fine pitch when the signal is only 240 lines!?! Why is $400 crazy for a PVM that originally cost $3000 but not for a box from Micomsoft that you wouldn't even need if you had just bought/kept the right TV? Ditching Commodore screens because they would die and be hard to replace so get shittier TVs that will die even faster and be even harder to directly replace?
Some of the shit in this thread makes zero sense to me. Zero. I'm going to go play some games.
Quote from: SignOfZeta on 11/27/2017, 02:47 PMWho cares about fine pitch when the signal is only 240 lines!?! Why is $400 crazy for a PVM that originally cost $3000 but not for a box from Micomsoft that you wouldn't even need if you had just bought/kept the right TV? Ditching Commodore screens because they would die and be hard to replace so get shittier TVs that will die even faster and be even harder to directly replace?
Some of the shit in this thread makes zero sense to me. Zero. I'm going to go play some games.
High dot pitch/stripe pitch = thick scanlines = BVM guys wetting their pants. Dot pitch and vertical resolution are two completely different things. The original price PVMs sold for is basically meaningless since these are now 15-20 years old and have almost no demand in the broadcast/medical industries they were originally designed for and sold to. $400 is crazy for a 13" gaming monitor. $400 is crazy for a magic box that adds scanlines. Go play some games.
I'm not anti-PVM, like I said above I use one and I've owned a bunch. 8/16 bit gaming looks fantastic on them. But there's some real craziness going on with the prices lately and people are quick to justify it with things like "but these cost like $20K new".
Quote from: jperryss on 11/27/2017, 02:20 PMA decent VGA CRT monitor should crush just about any PVM/BVM in picture quality due to the finer pitch. The top-of-the-line BVMs that idiots are literally spending thousands of dollars on today were around .25mm which is similar to a halfway-decent VGA monitor. My Viewsonic 22" is .23mm and I paid $40 for it. Emulation with the right settings and filters looks insanely sharp (https://www.dropbox.com/s/1z2jqtj568tk20j/2017-10-30%2019.46.50.jpg?dl=0) on it, but for playing on original hardware, it's not necessarily cheaper than a PVM since you still need to buy an upscaler and not everyone is spending thousands of even hundreds of dollars for decent 20" PVMs.
That does look nice.
Well, you could just get a basic line doubler, it depends on what all you would want to hook up to it. I was just bringing it up as a comparison point. I've spent $0 on all the VGA crt monitors I currently have and they look great.
Quote from: jperryss on 11/27/2017, 02:20 PMPrices are ridiculous right now, but 14s aren't selling for $400 except maybe the L5 or BVM-D14 which are multiformat and can display up to 720p/1080i, and only desperate fools are spending even that much.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=pvm%2014m4u&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2045573.m1684
Seems like a derp spike lately. Honestly I wouldn't even need $400 for it for it to be worth selling to me.
Quote from: SignOfZeta on 11/27/2017, 02:47 PMWho cares about fine pitch when the signal is only 240 lines!?! Why is $400 crazy for a PVM that originally cost $3000 but not for a box from Micomsoft that you wouldn't even need if you had just bought/kept the right TV? Ditching Commodore screens because they would die and be hard to replace so get shittier TVs that will die even faster and be even harder to directly replace?
That was kind of my point. There isn't a huge difference at all that many people will notice so why go to all the trouble of committing the time to track down a pvm in good condition. It's much easier to get a computer monitor and something to hook up consoles to it. I don't mind having a PVM, and it looks great, but I don't think they are really worth it at current "market value".
I know this wasn't directed at me but I'd love to have some commodore monitors on the cheap. I'd use them until they went under. Wouldn't go out of my way or pay much for one though.
Also I wouldn't pay retail for a micomsoft box.
Quote from: SignOfZeta on 11/27/2017, 02:47 PMI'm going to go play some games.
There ya go. I should too. I think some Final Lap Twin.
Quote from: Gypsy on 11/27/2017, 03:28 PMWell, you could just get a basic line doubler, it depends on what all you would want to hook up to it. I was just bringing it up as a comparison point. I've spent $0 on all the VGA crt monitors I currently have and they look great.
Totally agree. VGA monitors are overlooked and they're good for more than just emulation if you're willing to buy some extra hardware. Hopefully prices don't start getting crazy on those too as more people realize how capable they are.
Quote from: SignOfZeta on 11/27/2017, 02:47 PMWho cares about fine pitch when the signal is only 240 lines!?! Why is $400 crazy for a PVM that originally cost $3000 but not for a box from Micomsoft that you wouldn't even need if you had just bought/kept the right TV?
The XRGB3 offers some useful features that make it worth the <400$ price tag.
It has plenty of connections, including allowing me to plug in and upscale a PSP to my TV so I can play RPGs on not-handhelds. It makes doing a convention demo setup much easier in terms of space usage in my car, and on the table.
It's also a bit future proof and makes me not have to worry about "ah fuck I don't have a thing to plug this into".
It doesn't require fucking BNC connectors either. I hate those things.
It even opens up the ability to slap shit on any CRT monitor with a VGA connector. Not just ones that go for stupid amounts of money. This is great for computers like MSX or X68000.
The boxes also don't require immediate or soon-to-be-needed maintenance. Most PVMs you find need a bunch of crap done to them because they've been around the block, or they got jarred around a lot. Proper maintenance on a PVM can basically afford you an XRGB now.
Also, you don't even need an XRGB3 really. You can get a fuckin doofy XRGB1 and it will do what is needed. You lose out on scanlines, but there's like a 40$ doodad that does that shit too IIRC.
Or just slap it on a CRT monitor of your ThriftStore's choosing.
QuoteDitching Commodore screens because they would die and be hard to replace so get shittier TVs that will die even faster and be even harder to directly replace?
Because I can get a replacement CRT TV with the same kind of composite quality, or better, and also component input + svideo... for like 10$ or freefromgarbage(TM), and I can't do the same with a 1084S.
Also, 1084S is tiny. A like, 25+" TV shits all over a Commodore monitor.
The S-D1 is unable to actually sync to an MSX signal, and uses stupid DB-9s in the first place. Sometimes it's female, other times its male.
A 1080 isn't even stereo. So you have to dick off with that too.
So, fucking off with repairs on them vs. unloading them for like 200$+ a pop?
for 200$, I can get a garage full of competent CRT TVs that will outlive the 1084, and look better.
$200 for a Commodore monitor? Damn.
Quote from: Gypsy on 11/27/2017, 04:12 PM$200 for a Commodore monitor? Damn.
Yep. It's hard to keep something you know is going to crap the hell out when you have some dude offering you 200$ for it because "it matches his Amiga"
I'll second the I don't care what people play on as long as they're actually playing their games. My setup right now involves a 50 inch lcd, I still have my 27 inch Sony Wega though, with component input, and one day when we live in a place with more rooms I'll get it set up in a proper game room.
Keeping the fiance happy definitely plays into things. As a big vertical shmup fan I do have to say I love the convenience of my current setup. Any time I want to play a vertical shmup, the wall mount for my TV lets me rotate in about 20 seconds and I'm ready to go. Way back in the day I kept a 19 inch on its side all the time along side that 27 inch Sony, just for vertical shmups.
I have a 32" or 36" Wega that I play all <32-bit console and arcade games on. I got it free off craigslist, on the condition that I also take the stabd. It looks much better than my RGB monitor, which I keep on its side for playing tate games.
Composite looks great on all crts, when the signal is good. I wish that RGB to s-video mods were more common.
I only use a framemeister for capturing HD video. I have no problem playing emulation on hdtvs/monitors for short sessions or capturing screenshots, but will always play 240p games on real hardware using a crt if I can.
After not playing Henshin Engine on real hardware since an early build, I was shocked by how good the pixelart of the later stages looks on my TV. There is more than scanlines with crts that compliments 240p pixelart. No emulator filters I've seen come close to the overall effect.
If anyone prefers hdtvs or even emulation over real hardware, that's their business. As long as it's not stretched to 16:9. There are just too many threads in misc forums of people complaining about problems that could easily be avoided through much cheaper and more practical solutions.
Like people using real carts on fake hardware, yet insisting that flashcarts on real hardware is a "fake" experience.
lol I just found a like 27" toshiba theater vision TV on a lawn.
I broke the bottom tried to load that fucker in the car, but it might work.
I have to like, get help to get it in my house because it's yuuuuuge.
Quote from: guest on 11/27/2017, 07:31 PMIf anyone prefers hdtvs or even emulation over real hardware, that's their business. As long as it's not stretched to 16:9. There are just too many threads in misc forums of people complaining about problems that could easily be avoided through much cheaper and more practical solutions.
Yeah, that's the actual worst. Who thinks that looks good??!
I had many FB battles with gimps that thought stretchytime was fine, lol.
Dudes losing their shit over being made fun of for playing PCE stretched out.
There were some funny memes I made. I should dig them out.
One of them was like, a 3 pixel tall stripe and a caption like LORDS OF THUNDER IS AWSEOMEEE or something
Put me in a situation where all I have is a 14" BVM and offer to trade me one of the better consumer SDTVs over 25" for it, and I'll accept. If all I have is a 9" BVM, I'll probably try to talk you out of the deal for your sake. But there is no consumer TV you could offer me that I would trade a 20" broadcast monitor for.
20" broadcast monitors are the best CRTs for 240p. The picture quality is objectively better than everything else and next to nobody is going to find anything lacking about the size. (For the few who do, the larger PVMs are going to be hard to beat.) Consumer SD CRTs almost uniformly have bad corner convergence and warping somewhere in the geometry. They also tend to suffer patchiness or shifting on full-white screens because of overly simple high-voltage regulation, too.
Consumer SDTVs are perfectly usable and can look very nice if they have at least S-Video inputs. Component is really no worse than RGB, too, although some of the mods people have been doing to add RGB inputs are very cool as well. I can't imagine people turning up their noses at these things and outright refusing to use them. However, can you blame anyone for wanting to keep a broadcast monitor instead when they have the choice?
Like so many things, there is some bandwagon-bullshit to step around, but if you have a chance to get a 20" broadcast monitor in good shape at a reasonable price and you have the space for it, for god's sake TAKE IT.
As for the whole LCD thing, it's simple: I am willing to accept one, and only one, frame of added lag in the whole pipeline. No screen tearing or frame stutter, and I want sophisticated CRT filters in 4K resolution, too. I'll take the Pepsi Challenge with three frames of added lag any old day of the week.
As for HD CRTs, I used to champion mine, but in the end I had to admit that the way it line-doubles 240p is pretty awful. It's literally this (https://i.imgur.com/UUBxPma.jpg) versus this. (https://i.imgur.com/ldckG1g.jpg)
Quote from: SamIAm on 11/27/2017, 11:23 PMI can't imagine people turning up their noses at these things and outright refusing to use them. However, can you blame anyone for wanting to keep a broadcast monitor instead when they have the choice?
You must not go on FB very often, lol.
I had some 19" PVMs, and I sold them. The thing about all of them that really sucks is how DEEP they are.
I wanted to use one for my MSX, but it took up literally the entire desk. It was pretty rough. They ended up going to good homes though so it's whatever.
The thing about 20" broadcast monitors though, is, they often have issues now too. I watched someone locally buy a NOS 20" one, and it needed cap work, and the screen looked like / \
That isn't really awesome. Especially for how much it cost him.
It died on him, also. I don't know if he ever got it serviced.
If you don't have someone who wants to open and fiddle around with those things, it's not particularly great anymore. You have to get really lucky to find one that isn't goony, for a reasonable price.
Now, people are starting to get stupid. They're assuming ANY crt is $$$$$$$$.
Someone locally was selling a fuckin RCA TV for 300$. A *tiny* tabletop, antennae only twisty knob RCA TV.
You're right, I don't go on facebook.
Getting a broadcast monitor that hasn't been used to death really is the big gamble. At this point, having to swap the caps just goes with the territory.
For some reason, Japan's prices are nowhere near as high as North America's, and I've managed to pick up four twenty-inch broadcast monitors. Two needed no work, and two basically needed a full recapping. One of the latter is still kind of goony, but the other went from having a hilariously wobbly screen to being the best display I've ever had.
QuoteNow, people are starting to get stupid. They're assuming ANY crt is $$$$$$$$.
Someone locally was selling a fuckin RCA TV for 300$. A *tiny* tabletop, antennae only twisty knob RCA TV.
Occasional stupidity aside, surely the supply of consumer CRTs in the US still outstrips the demand? I just popped onto my small hometown's craigslist, and there were five posted in the free section in the last week alone.
The prices in Japan may not be as high because tons of space to do full game room setups to photograph on Facebook aren't as big of a thing maybe? just guessing.
America is where people will post their room with 9 monitors (all with messed up geometry) next to 90000000 other things, and probably don't play anything past a title screen anyways.
You can find TVs for free/cheap still, sure. Finding VGA CRT monitors is starting to get dicey, around here at least.
Anything cream colored is now "vintage retro rare 500$plz" it is starting to seem...
I think there are three big reasons why CRTs are relatively unpopular in Japan:
1. The size is actually a pretty big deal when your apartment is tiny.
2. People feel extra-high pressure to have the latest gadgets, in part to support domestic gadget-making industries.
3. Throwing away a CRT costs around $50, but there were some widely-advertised campaigns a while ago that gave people limited-time discounts on that, which they jumped on.
Sony also had a Japan-exclusive line of TVs called Profeel Pro that were basically PVMs aimed at consumers. Broadcast monitors coming down in price wasn't as big of a deal with those available.
Oh right, I forgot you can't just chuck a TV on the sidewalk in Japan.
that's how I got this stupid TV that I can't physically lift out of my car. I was driving and just saw it on the sidewalk and went HEY A TOSHIBA! and probably looked like an idiot trying to lug it to my trunk.
My friend's house over there still has tiny TVs everywhere because of space concerns.
With heavy lunky ass TVs comes the need for a piece of furniture that can support the thing. I am currently wondering where I will put this TV I just found.
I have one stand that might work, otherwise it's going to go on the floor.
Good thing I serviced CRT TVs in the past, so if I happen to stumble on an old CRT sometime, I should be able to do some common repairs and geometry adjustments if needed.
Quote from: Gypsy on 11/27/2017, 03:28 PMQuote from: jperryss on 11/27/2017, 02:20 PM(...)My Viewsonic 22" is .23mm and I paid $40 for it. Emulation with the right settings and filters looks insanely sharp (https://www.dropbox.com/s/1z2jqtj568tk20j/2017-10-30%2019.46.50.jpg?dl=0) on it(...)
That does look nice.
To me, it does look horrible. Because it artificially darkens the screen.
However, if you guys like it, that's OK.
Take a look at the GnG pics in this post:
https://nfgworld.com/mb/thread/661-Recreating-CRTs
Quote from: guest on 11/28/2017, 02:51 AMTo me, it does look horrible. Because it artificially darkens the screen.
However, if you guys like it, that's OK.
Take a look at the GnG pics in this post:
https://nfgworld.com/mb/thread/661-Recreating-CRTs
Yeah, this was more of an experiment than anything else. It's way too sharp and doesn't look natural (and obiously exaggerated a bit due to being super close-up) but it was neat to see. I was going to use this monitor in a MAME build but ended up going with a softer 19" shadow mask JVC along with soft15kHz. It has a nicely curved tube and is much closer to an original arcade monitor.
Yeah, I bet she's got curved tubes.
huuuhuuu
Quote from: Psycho Arkhan on 11/27/2017, 08:50 PMlol I just found a like 27" toshiba theater vision TV on a lawn.
I broke the bottom tried to load that fucker in the car, but it might work.
I have to like, get help to get it in my house because it's yuuuuuge.
Is that a big wood floor console model or are you just a pussy? :P
Quote from: guest on 11/28/2017, 10:19 AMYeah, I bet she's got curved tubes.
huuuhuuu
Fat tubes need lovin' too.
I was talking about her titties. lol
PROTIP: WHEN GRABBING TV FROM LAWN IN THE DARK, MAKE SURE THE ASSHOLES DIDN'T CUT THE FUCKING POWER CORD OFF.
SON OF A BITCH.
Quote from: guest on 11/29/2017, 02:32 AMPROTIP: WHEN GRABBING TV FROM LAWN IN THE DARK, MAKE SURE THE ASSHOLES DIDN'T CUT THE FUCKING POWER CORD OFF.
SON OF A BITCH.
Ha. That made me laugh. Mostly because of how many posts you made about this TV. Anyway, it's an easy fix.
The real question is: Who would cut the cord off an old TV and why? We may never know...
QuoteWho would cut the cord off an old TV and why?
I've done that. Maybe not a TV, but other things.
That and a trip to HomeDepot is a cheap extension cord. Especially when you need one
about 6 inches long for a power brick.
Quote from: TheOldMan on 11/29/2017, 03:36 AMQuoteWho would cut the cord off an old TV and why?
I've done that. Maybe not a TV, but other things.
That and a trip to HomeDepot is a cheap extension cord. Especially when you need one
about 6 inches long for a power brick.
But WHY?
To make a cheap self-electrocuting device. Sends angry pixies from the power outlet straight to your bare hands, there's no better way for suicide without going through too much trouble. Way better than being burned alive, drowning, suffocation. Maybe jumping from a roof can still beat it, but if you choose the latter, be sure it is high enough to not just make you a heavily disabled person afterwards.
Also make sure it is not too high, or you'll go through hellish seconds overthinking what you've just done (see also: Instant regrets (https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=22823.msg510261#msg510261)) before you eventually reach the ground.
Quote from: crazydean on 11/29/2017, 04:46 AMQuote from: TheOldMan on 11/29/2017, 03:36 AMQuoteWho would cut the cord off an old TV and why?
I've done that. Maybe not a TV, but other things.
That and a trip to HomeDepot is a cheap extension cord. Especially when you need one
about 6 inches long for a power brick.
But WHY?
Some of the older guys I work with used to do that with stuff they thought had become a fire hazard (they repair shit here). Basically it was like saying "don't bother, I'm busted/dangerous".
Quote from: crazydean on 11/29/2017, 04:46 AMBut WHY?
Some people do this for the copper in the cord; they get a bunch of them, strip them, and sell the copper to a scrap metal place. I actually know someone who does or used to do this; any time they see someone with an appliance at the curb they'll stop their car and chop off the power cord if someone hasn't already beaten them to it.
QuoteBut WHY?
A) Because I can.
B) Because I'm cheap
C) Because short (< 6 in) extensions weren't available at the time.
D) Because no one wants a 6 ft extension cord with a power brick attached under foot.
E) Because I'm wierd like that.
Pick one.
Quote from: gheebee on 11/29/2017, 12:25 PMI actually know someone who does or used to do this; any time they see someone with an appliance at the curb they'll stop their car and chop off the power cord if someone hasn't already beaten them to it.
Reminds me of the friend who put an office chair out on the curb and returned later to find that someone took the wheeled base and left the rest of it.
Bunch of savages.
Quote from: crazydean on 11/29/2017, 02:47 AMQuote from: Psycho Arkhan on 11/29/2017, 02:32 AMPROTIP: WHEN GRABBING TV FROM LAWN IN THE DARK, MAKE SURE THE ASSHOLES DIDN'T CUT THE FUCKING POWER CORD OFF.
SON OF A BITCH.
Ha. That made me laugh. Mostly because of how many posts you made about this TV. Anyway, it's an easy fix.
The real question is: Who would cut the cord off an old TV and why? We may never know...
I got it all in spliced wires and it looks like the TV was dead.
SO maybe they cut it as a warning.
but they rested the TV remote so nicely on top of it, I didn't even think.
Sad times. Those theater view TVs look fucking awesome.
Quote from: jperryss on 11/29/2017, 01:38 PMQuote from: gheebee on 11/29/2017, 12:25 PMI actually know someone who does or used to do this; any time they see someone with an appliance at the curb they'll stop their car and chop off the power cord if someone hasn't already beaten them to it.
Reminds me of the friend who put an office chair out on the curb and returned later to find that someone took the wheeled base and left the rest of it.
Bunch of savages.
Lol, I just imagine some hillbilly furniture dolly or something using the just the wheeled base.
I recently ripped the female SCART sockets out of an old TV I am going to recycle because it doesn't work. I did leave the power cord connected too though so maybe I should cut it off.
Fuckin bastardssssssss
Its ok, my Sanyo still rocks on.
QuoteBut WHY?
Because they snatched up a TV from the sidewalk that had no power cord. So they cut it off from the other TV next to it.
One time, my dad was doing a deep clean of his house and very briefly set a PC monitor on his front porch. Someone hacked the VGA cable off of it, which was built in at the monitor-end. A good VGA cable has shielding and all that jazz, so it must be at least a little valuable...but on the other hand, I can't imagine someone investing the time to make something out of the cable as part of a business model.
With power cords, there is probably ten or twenty cents worth of copper in the lines.
Quote from: SamIAm on 11/29/2017, 11:26 PMWith power cords, there is probably ten or twenty cents worth of copper in the lines.
About 5 - 8 years ago if you lived in the northeast USA that price was almost tripled that. The guys here would steal bits from everything, break into houses for the lines, and strip every bit from demolitions. If they could get a 30 gallon garbage can filled they were selling it for multiple hundreds of dollars at a time.
Yeah I'm in CT and in some of our, er, more urban zones it is still fairly common for abandoned warehouses to get broken into and the copper pipes/wiring stolen.
Quote from: turboswimbz on 11/30/2017, 08:27 AMQuote from: SamIAm on 11/29/2017, 11:26 PMWith power cords, there is probably ten or twenty cents worth of copper in the lines.
About 5 - 8 years ago if you lived in the northeast USA that price was almost tripled that. The guys here would still bits from everything, break into houses for the lines, and strip every bit from demolitions. If they could get a 30 gallon garbage can filled they were selling it for multiple hundreds of dollars at a time.
Yeah, lol houses around here in the jankier areas had the aluminum siding ripped off, and inside, people ripped the copper pipes out of the walls.
Like someone who was on vacation came home to a house with no pipes.
Yeah thankfully commodities prices have come down a bit so there is less blatant theft. City had an issue with people opening the bottoms of light posts and pulling out the wiring here for a bit. I've got a ton of old cords and it looks like a lot of places will give you a flat rate (by pound) for unstripped cords even.
PCE/TG-16|CD/SGX Discussion => Topic started by: turbokon on 11/26/2017, 02:07 PM