Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE

[spenoza]

I want the community's opinion on what some of the biggest missed opportunities were for the PCE. What games were begging for a PCE port but inexplicably missed out? What major market moves did Hudson/NEC completely fail to predict or later take hold of? Were there any companies Hudson and NEC failed adequately to court or partner with?

I think Capcom missed the bus with the system, supporting Nintendo and Sega extensively but for some reason relying on NEC Avenue to provide Capcom titles for the PCE. Konami didn't develop as effusively for the system as they did for others, but at least they did develop directly and did a darn good job of it. Sunsoft and Natsume did lots of great action games for the NES but didn't migrate to the PCE with the same productivity or enthusiasm. Sure, there were a couple here and there, but it would have been nice to have had the same selection of rockin'-soundtracked action games.

Wandering into pipe dream territory, the original Rastan would have been a pretty cool port for the PCE, as would the arcade game Silkworm, though given how the Ninja Gaiden port on the PCE suffered maybe it was a good thing Silkworm never got ported.

[OldRover]

I would have liked to have seen a conversion of Magic Sword on hucard, and perhaps a conversion of Mortal Kombat for ACD.

[geise]

Any CPS-1 game port NOT by NEC Avenue.  I personally would've loved a port of Final Fight. 

I also thought Viewpoint could've been done on the Arcade card quite well.

[Arkhan Asylum]

There weren't enough first person RPGs.   We got the Wizardry series, two M&Ms, .... but no Bards Tale.  no Ultimas.  No other Goldbox games.  Just OotG, and that one kinda blew.

Ultima would have been awesome on PCE.  Ultima Exodus especially.  I guess the lack of First person RPGs was a culture thing. 

There was a severe lack of Capcom.  Konami aside from Shooters was another missed opportunity.  Bayou Birry, Contra, more castlevanias, metal gear... we really couldve used that stuff. 

[CrackTiger]

There weren't enough first person RPGs.   We got the Wizardry series, two M&Ms, .... but no Bards Tale.  no Ultimas.  No other Goldbox games.  Just OotG, and that one kinda blew.

Ultima would have been awesome on PCE.  Ultima Exodus especially.  I guess the lack of First person RPGs was a culture thing. 

There was a severe lack of Capcom.  Konami aside from Shooters was another missed opportunity.  Bayou Birry, Contra, more castlevanias, metal gear... we really couldve used that stuff. 

You might not love them all, but there is Dragon Knight I & II, Lady Sword, Death Bringer, Double Dungeons, Dungeon Master, Laplace No Ma, Madou Monogatari, Out Live and Megami Tensei Sin.

But it sounds like you wanted more western RPGs than anything.

[apachacha]

Honestly I think it might have been the unreleased sequel to Cocoron. If anyone here doesn't know the original NES title, it's a non linear game where you create your own characters from parts (sometimes making realy bizarre combinations) and then set up their weapons from a small selection. You could make a new character after defeating each boss.

Somehow, expanding on this formula as well as updating the graphics/visuals would have made it a realy great platform title, one of which the system had not enough in my opinion.

[Arkhan Asylum]

But it sounds like you wanted more western RPGs than anything.

Yes.  I like all of those games mentioned but they still have that distinct Japanese RPG style to them.

The goldbox series, and Ultima games would have been awesome.   The really in depth adventure games.  Thats what was lacking.  Much like how the C64/Amiga lacked JRPG style games and all they had was obnoxious adventure games. 

At least the PCE did indeed get some of both.  I would have loved to see World of Xeen on the PCE CD.  It clearly was doable, as its the same engine as Isles of Terra.

and, Order of the griffon proved they could do the gold box games.  a CD version of any of the Forgotten Realms games would have made me wet myself.  Curse of the Azure Bonds especially.

or like its been said, Ultima III. 

I do plan to remake Ultima II, and plan to try doing it on multiple platforms because its an Ultima with a sweet story, but terrible implementation.

Also, Dungeon Master is barely an RPG.  It's more like a puzzle game to me. 

[Tatsujin]

Clearly it lacked in some good side scrolling brawlers. Final Fight at the start of the SGFX would have been so awesome. Also some high speed super fast action jump'n run would have been fun to see on the pce.

[Arkhan Asylum]

What about Genji Tsushin Agedama???

We really got screwed with the lack of Contra.  Thats like the biggest punch in the nuts ever.

[Tatsujin]

What about Genji Tsushin Agedama???

Yeah that's a good one but certainly no alien soldier & co. Anyway, I liked to see more than one or two of those.

[VestCunt]

Don't forget Might and Magic III.
 

No other Goldbox games.  Just OotG, and that one kinda blew.

OotG is awesome.

[Mathius]

I would have liked to have seen some side-scrolling action/adventure platformers in the vein of Metroid. A game with well thought out item progression would have rocked!

[SamIAm]

Basically, platformers. Specifically, modern platformers. I love what's there, but whenever I fire up Sonic 3 or Yoshi's Island, I think "this is what's missing on the PCE".

[RR1980]

well Jackie Chan and New Adventure Island are pretty awesome platformers but you are right that it never had that one big blockbuster like Super Mario Bros or Sonic that would make people buy the system just for that title.

[apachacha]

What about Genji Tsushin Agedama???

We really got screwed with the lack of Contra.  Thats like the biggest punch in the nuts ever.

I like it.....until the final boss, the it just becomes a dick Mostly cause of the weird way you have to avoid lightning from hitting you even if you donn't touch the ground.

well Jackie Chan and New Adventure Island are pretty awesome platformers but you are right that it never had that one big blockbuster like Super Mario Bros or Sonic that would make people buy the system just for that title. 

Well there's Bonk.

But I do feel a stunning lack of platformers for the system. Take for example games like Hagane, Run Saber etc. The only game similar to those that I even know off is The Ninja Warriors, and I always get killed almost instantly.

Also, Newzealand Story anyone ? That one's both weird and good.

[nat]

Faussete Amour is a good, very unique platformer for the Duo.

Then of course there is the Valis series, the Axe series and the Bonk series among tons of varying quality one-off titles. I'd take the Bonk series over the Sonics (Sonic CD aside) any day.

[SignOfZeta]

well Jackie Chan and New Adventure Island are pretty awesome platformers but you are right that it never had that one big blockbuster like Super Mario Bros or Sonic that would make people buy the system just for that title. 

I already had the system, and I still didn't buy those games. The only reason why I had Bonk 1&2 was because they were pack-ins. I didn't get Bonk 3 until last year. There isn't really a shortage, per say, of platformers on PCE, there's just a shortage of anything better than a C+. Maybe Mario and Sonic are asking for too much, but what about Rystar, Rocket Knight, Heady, etc? Shit even Vector Man embarrasses most PCE platformers, most of which seem to be Wataru or Wonderboy hacks. Same floaty jumping arc, same shitty shops.

I'd say the biggest missed opportunity on the PCE was the fact that the last few years of the system were dominated almost entirely my menu driven games. Galget, RPGs, and Digital Comics, mainly. At the end we all had CD systems and Arcade Cards but if you wanted a shooter, a platformer, a beat-em-up, or even a sports game you had to go to the early CD or even HuCard era for any kind of selection. Of course, before eBay, this forum, etc it was really fucking hard to find PCE games that weren't brand new so...there wasn't a lot of "action" in 1993, 94, 95.

Specifically, I guess I would have liked to see an Assault Suits series game for SCD. Given NCS Masiya's huge support of PCE its kind of odd there never was one.

[SamIAm]

Faussete Amour is a good, very unique platformer for the Duo.

Then of course there is the Valis series, the Axe series and the Bonk series among tons of varying quality one-off titles. I'd take the Bonk series over the Sonics (Sonic CD aside) any day.

Ha ha, we have very different taste, my good man.

To me, Bonk is decent, but if I were making a list of my top 5 favorite games ever, Sonic 3 and Sonic CD would both be on there. I love Sonic 1, as well.

As for Valis and Faussete Amour, well, I think they sum up the PCE-CD in more ways than we'd like to admit - great visuals, but not a lot of good action to be found.

[OldRover]

A Mario game would be pathetically easy to make on the PCE, and a Sonic game not much harder. The fact that we didn't get any such high-quality titles is pretty much just attributed to the fact that Mario and Sonic were done by top in-house teams with huge budgets, and most PCE games were made by companies with very limited budgets, some of which were one-hit-wonders on the PCE. We really did need some better platformers... but I suppose the ones we got weren't terrible, with a few exceptions... but yeah, some killer ones would have been nice. Other platformers on the two other consoles were almost always made by companies with larger budgets, and with the knowledge that sales would come easy. The PCE never really had such a comfort zone, and the TG16 even less so. That might have contributed to the lackluster efforts of said C+ games.

Ristar would have been pretty easy to do. Same with Rocket Knight. I don't know enough about Dynamite Heady to make a judgement call there.

Hell though... I could make a kickass Mario game over the freakin' weekend... in fact, I think I was gonna a few weeks back... never did it though... dunno why, not enough challenge I suppose.

[soop]

I think what sums the PC Engine up in my opinion is "if you want something done ... get Hudson to do it".

IMO, Hudson have got the greatest stable of hits for the system, an extraordinary run rivalled only by Sega and Nintendo at the time.  However what really hurt the PCE was the fact that Nintendo tried to strong-arm developers into developing only for their system.  That's the reason there were so many NES-only titles - part of Ninty's "license" was "we'll let you develop for our system if you give us a cut, let us have the final say and promise not to develop that game for any other system.

And later, I think moving to CD so quickly undoubtedly hurt the Super Grafx, which really should have been the bees knees.  everyone praises the CD system, but I own about 3 CD games, and I just see so many more great games in HuCard format :/

[apachacha]

Hell though... I could make a kickass Mario game over the freakin' weekend... in fact, I think I was gonna a few weeks back... never did it though... dunno why, not enough challenge I suppose.

You mean as in programing a new one, or just modify a previously used engine ?

[Arkhan Asylum]

Don't forget Might and Magic III.
 

What do you think Isles of Terra is, lol

EDIT: oh wait, i never said IoT, but I said two M&Ms, same difference.

I liked the first M&M even though its all Anime'd up and a bit more "THIS IS WHAT YOU USE, DO IT. TOUGH IF YOU DONT LIKE".  Kind of like OotG, only not as lame.

ootg is still good, but they left out the customization of the goldbox games and left the rest -_-

OotG is awesome.

That would be better if I wasnt stuck with generic party 9000

[Digi.k]

would had loved more scrolling beat em ups and more racing games like outrun, victory run which I really do feel were lacking on the pc-e

[Arkhan Asylum]

Too bad we couldn't has battletoads.

We did get RCR though, and that's my favorite beat em up, lol.

[OldRover]

You mean as in programing a new one, or just modify a previously used engine ?

From the ground up. If I were to modify existing source, I could do it in a day. Of course, I'm referring to the code alone, since that's my department. That doesn't take into consideration the graphics and sound.

In any event, most platform games are composed of two major portions: finite state machines (FSMs, and not Flying Spaghetti Monsters either, though that would be teh jawsum ), and collision detection (coldet). At the lowest level, that's all they are. Where they differ is in the level of coldet (some have additional collision types, such as platforms you can "jump up to") and the number and capabilities of the states (all platformers have "run around and jump around" but some have attack states, some have multiple attack states, some have special jump states and substates, etc etc etc etc). A basic player FSM can be coded in a couple of hours, even in assembly. Enemy FSMs tend to be simpler. Coldet is usually even easier, especially if you already have a robust mapping scheme and understand bounding boxes and thresholds. Of course, to do them well, you need to have not only experience but also skill... it's pretty easy to fuck both of them up if you don't know what you're doing.

[NecroPhile]

Passing up on exclusive rights to Mortal Kombat was a heck of a missed opportunity; love it or hate it, that game sold like hot cakes and surely would've sold some systems too.  Of course, one game couldn't have made a huge difference all by itself, but had the profits been used for effective marketing and/or bringing over additional popular titles, who knows how things might've ended?

[soop]

A basic player FSM can be coded in a couple of hours, even in assembly.

Yeah, but you really need to know what you're doing.  Massively so.  I haven't touched assembler since Devpac 2/3 on the Amiga, and it's certainly not something most people could do on a whim in a matter of hours.  You'd need to live it, and who really does these days?

But yeah, if you have decent tools and reference Mario would be a snap as far as I can think.  It does have nice jump physics though, I've always thought that.

[Mathius]

A basic player FSM can be coded in a couple of hours, even in assembly.

Yeah, but you really need to know what you're doing.  Massively so.  I haven't touched assembler since Devpac 2/3 on the Amiga, and it's certainly not something most people could do on a whim in a matter of hours.  You'd need to live it, and who really does these days?

But yeah, if you have decent tools and reference Mario would be a snap as far as I can think.  It does have nice jump physics though, I've always thought that.

I think our Rovie knows what he is doing I would assume.

[SignOfZeta]

And later, I think moving to CD so quickly undoubtedly hurt the Super Grafx, which really should have been the bees knees.  everyone praises the CD system, but I own about 3 CD games, and I just see so many more great games in HuCard format :/

The Supergrapfx was a terrible idea, or at least a terribly executed idea. It seems like a half-ass attempt by NEC to sell hardware without much though of WTF customers/developers/Hudson were supposed to do with it.

CD had way way more to offer us. When they invented it nobody had any clue we'd get something like Y's IV or Fatal Fury Special, but there they are...and you aren't doing that shit with a SGX (not without a really fucking expensive/huge HuCard anyway). Obviously the SGX didn't see its full potential, but even if it had I just can't see it giving us much that was all that different from a standard PCE HuCard.

BWT, jeez, get more CD games! You have three? No wonder you don't think its so great.

[OldRover]

I wish the SGX would have become the de facto standard... the machine really is better, at least from a coder's point of view. Having two graphics chips and double the total VRAM is great, and four times the scratch RAM helps a LOT. Out of anything else, I think the SGX itself was the largest missed opportunity.

[NecroPhile]

Out of anything else, I think the SGX itself was the largest missed opportunity.

Agreed.  Just think if they'd stuffed the SGX hardware in the Duos.

[Arkhan Asylum]

If the Duo was a SuperDuo,  there would be so much OBEY it would knock Earth off its axis.

They should have done that man.  Then developers could have used the MOAR POWAR, if they wanted... or just stuck to the turbob power.

and then, Super Grafx Super Arcade SUPER CDs

oijagofijasodifja43 rgboirtgbrsonbhtgfdtrh

Someone make it, go go go.

[MottZilla]

Out of anything else, I think the SGX itself was the largest missed opportunity.

Agreed.  Just think if they'd stuffed the SGX hardware in the Duos.

Reading through this thread that was smething I was thinking about too. The SGX seemed to be thrown out the door the fend for itself and didn't get much support. Surely SGX + CDROM would have been able to pull off some better games. Not sure what the cost would have been but I'd really liked to have seen a game utilizing the combo of SGX + CD + Arcade Card. You probably could have made a killer port of Mortal Kombat that would have put all other console ports to shame. Not to mention all the other great games that may have been possible.

[Arkhan Asylum]

and not to mention how much the whole setup would cost.

but, yeah it would rule.

[Ceti Alpha]

Faussete Amour is a good, very unique platformer for the Duo.

Then of course there is the Valis series, the Axe series and the Bonk series among tons of varying quality one-off titles. I'd take the Bonk series over the Sonics (Sonic CD aside) any day.

Fausette Amour does look quite nice. But yeah, Valis, Axe, Bonk, NAI and even Ghouls 'n Ghosts if you want to cheat a little and include the SGX, are all great platformers. I would also take Bonk over Sonic, any day. I'd probably take Bonk over Super Mario Bros 3, as well. So, I don't think there was a massive shortage of great platformers, but more would have been nice. A Contra port really would have been awesome.

A few more beat 'em ups would have been nice, since all we really have are Double Dragon, Riot Zone and River City Ransom.

A few Phantasy Star 4 type of RPGs would have been nice, as well.

All-in-all, if you Google "best Genesis games" and look at some of the lists, it certainly doesn't make you want to trade in your PCE/TG. It does come up short in a couple of departments, but overall, I wouldn't change too much.

[NecroPhile]

and not to mention how much the whole setup would cost.

I'm not sure that it would've been prohibitively expensive, based on the cost of the Mega-CD with its extra 68000 and lots of memory.

[apachacha]

Out of anything else, I think the SGX itself was the largest missed opportunity.

Agreed.  Just think if they'd stuffed the SGX hardware in the Duos.

Reading through this thread that was smething I was thinking about too. The SGX seemed to be thrown out the door the fend for itself and didn't get much support. Surely SGX + CDROM would have been able to pull off some better games. Not sure what the cost would have been but I'd really liked to have seen a game utilizing the combo of SGX + CD + Arcade Card. You probably could have made a killer port of Mortal Kombat that would have put all other console ports to shame. Not to mention all the other great games that may have been possible.

I'd be afraid to touch something like that, in fear of accidentaly blowing up the world

[Arkhan Asylum]

and not to mention how much the whole setup would cost.

I'm not sure that it would've been prohibitively expensive, based on the cost of the Mega-CD with its extra 68000 and lots of memory.

oh, I was picturing the supergrafx + supercd megaunit9000.

So, the vacuum cleaner setup, condensed down into a tiny doodad with arcade card built in.

yknow, I wouldn't even care if it was expensive.  That would be fucking awesome.

[nat]

Faussete Amour is a good, very unique platformer for the Duo.

Then of course there is the Valis series, the Axe series and the Bonk series among tons of varying quality one-off titles. I'd take the Bonk series over the Sonics (Sonic CD aside) any day.

Ha ha, we have very different taste, my good man.

Agreed.

To me, Bonk is decent, but if I were making a list of my top 5 favorite games ever, Sonic 3 and Sonic CD would both be on there. I love Sonic 1, as well.

Sonic CD is the only worthwhile Sonic IMO, not to derail the thread, but only to clarify my earlier statement about choosing Bonk > Sonic. I'm not sure any of the Bonk games OR Sonic CD would make my top 5 favorite games ever, however.

As for Valis and Faussete Amour, well, I think they sum up the PCE-CD in more ways than we'd like to admit - great visuals, but not a lot of good action to be found.

I'll disagree again here. The Valis series certainly has its low points (*cough* Valis II), but there is plenty of great action to be found in the rest of the games. Maybe super-high-speed runs through levels are a prerequisite for "good" action for you, but not me.

[SignOfZeta]

Regarding the SGX surviving long enough to be built into Duos...


Shit like this never works, and this would have been no exception. In many ways the SGX dying as bizarrely fast as it did (I'm sure it was effectively killed before it was even released) was a blessing.

If the SGX had taken off, then we would have been in a tricky situation. Were previous owners of PCE systems supposed to basically bin their old systems purchased just two years earlier? That would suck, especially considering the price of the SGX, and the CDROM2 (planed from the begining) combined. I'm pretty sure sales of PCE in that early period were some of the best the system ever saw too. It would have been suicidal to shit on that customer base.

Of course the developers could have made everything a Darius style hybrid HuCard, but everyone who understands the concept of rational thinking knows that this wouldn't have been worth it either. For the SGX's super powers to truly be taken advantage of you'd need to build the games from the ground up to be the best they could be. A hybrid card isn't going to make the most of either system. Software designed to scale up and down to different power levels and configurations always suffers. The biggest advantage of consoles is that you know EXACTLY what every user has so you can make the absolute most of the hardware, down to last byte and CPU cycle. A hybrid HuCard is going to lack running under one or both modes.

The SGX shits in the face of the entire "core" concept that the PCE was based arround. You can't upgrade to the SGX like you can with different system cards or CDROM addons. You have to chuck your 25,000 yen system and buy another one, and for what? Power upgrades that to this day haven't been proven to really be worth two shits, let alone another $200 on top of the price of another PCE (most of the hardware in which, owners of standard PCEs already bought once).  If SGX capabilities were something that could be added to any PCE, and eventually incorporate into Duos for free (like the Super System eventually was) then yeah, fuck yeah, obviously that would have been awesome. Unfortunately the dipshits that created the SGX made a setup where that was impossible.

The SGX died so that we could have a non-fragmented user base during the SuperCD and HuCard eras, and it was totally worth it. The best PCE soft came during the periods when most users were all on the same page, hardware-wise. The PCE already has the most confusing matrix of system configurations in history, adding SGXCD, SGXSCD, and SGXACD to that list would have meant less customers, less software, and probably, honestly, worse software.

Also, fuck Mortal Kombat. It would have sold a few systems in America, sure, but then what? MK2, MK3, fuck that. Some things just aren't worth the psychic price.

[OldRover]

Did not the SuperCD "fragment" the CDROM userbase? Not a hell of a lot of difference.

[lord_cack]

I think, to be perfectly honest, the biggest opportunity to have "the biggest lost opportunity" for the PCE has yet to happen, and can be prevented.

Mind Rec, Aetherbutt, Frozen Utopia....

A few years back Mind Rec gave us 2 game, Implode and Meteor Blast. But they have PC Gunjin in the works, an RPG.

A couple of years ago Aetherbutt released Insanity and is working on Retrocade, a collection of Classic Arcade Remakes. Making nice strides in just getting NEW Turbo/PCE material out there. Also, I'm sure Arkhan has the potential to do more games.

Frozen Utopia has Mysterious Song Remake, and a Platformer, Jungle Bros. in the works. I also know for a fact that those aren't the only titles that Frozen Utopia has the potential to make.

So really, I think the greatest potential loss for the Turbo has yet to happen. The loss of some great games that have yet to be released for this system.

[OldRover]

Frozen Utopia also has a brawler in the vein of Final Fight in the works, for those people who crave a good scrap.

[nectarsis]

A few years back Mind Rec gave us 2 game, Implode and Meteor Blast. But they have PC Gunjin in the works, an RPG.

I don't remember hearing/seeing about their RPG.  Last I heard the other 2 are aiming more at the 360 (and MAYBE still for the PCE).

[OldRover]

They announced an RPG a number of years back but nothing ever came of it. As far as I know, MindRec has already pretty much left the PCE scene and is doing the 360 and I think mobile stuff now.

[grahf]

I disagree about the SGX, Rover. I completely understand where you're coming from as a dev, but that thing was destined to failure. From a consumer standpoint.

I don't think the PCE had any huge missed opportunities, but I vote for Mortal Kombat as the biggest missed opportunity for the TG16. A LOT of my classmates bought a Genesis just because it had the "better" version of MK. Most of them already had a SNES. In my area it was Mortal Kombat, not Sonic 2, that pushed the Genesis ahead of the SNES for a bit. Mortal Kombat was absolutely huge at the arcades, and I didn't know anyone who didn't have it for a home system when it came out. It was one of the first games that made kids from all over my neighborhood get together for gaming sessions. Sonic 2 was an amazing game to have IF you had a Genesis, but you HAD to have a Genesis to play the cool version of Mortal Kombat.

I can imagine massive sales of TurgoGrafx if they didn't pass that one up.... The system was already selling for way cheaper than the Genesis and SNES, so it would have made a difference for sure.

[SignOfZeta]

Did not the SuperCD "fragment" the CDROM userbase? Not a hell of a lot of difference.

Yes, things were plenty fragmented by the end, but there is a huge difference.

Everyone wanted a CDROM system. Those that didn't buy one left PCE for SFC, but those that did pretty much all got a Super System Card eventually. Eventually, with the except of a small number of ACD releases, active PCE consumers were buying the same format of game, SCDs, and they could be played on PCE, CG, CGII, LT, Duo, Duo R, Duo RX, Laseractive, and even the SGX.

If the SGX became mainstream there is no doubt that SGX functionality would have been built into Duos, and cheaper Core systems further down the line, but the early systems would have been useless. Not just the white PCE but the Core Grafx also which was on sale at the same time as the SGX. WTF were they thinking? One of them had to be cut lose. Because the SGX was abandoned ALL systems could play ALL (non-SGX) HuCards, right up until the end. Formation Soccer, when it was released in 1994, was just as playable on a 1987 PCE as it was on any other PCE system. All systems that could play any CD could play all CDs with the right card. This is one of the coolest things about PCE, IMO.

[Ceti Alpha]

Damn. Who knew that the PCE/TG was Android of the day with all the "fragmentation". lol

[SignOfZeta]

I don't think any platform in history has ever been as fragmented as Android. It makes Windows look like the NES.

[SamIAm]

The Mortal Kombat fiasco probably ranks up there with the biggest fumbled deals in video game history. I, too, remember the MK craze, and I can name 4 people off the top of my head who definitely would have bought a TG16 if it had been the only way to play the home port.

Also, I'm going to join in and say that the SGX was a terrible idea. Remember how Sega went to the doghouse when they released the Saturn right after the 32X and burned everyone who bought one of those? They were making fun of Sega and the 32X on Saturday Night Live, for heaven's sake. The technology and the potential of the SGX is exciting, but it really doesn't make much market sense.

If you want to talk about never releasing the PCE and making the SGX NEC's base system from the start, that's a different story.