PCEngine-FX.com

Steve Hanleys's circuit design advanced to be more universal to work for many other consoles. But I think this thread should remain NEC specific.

* A Simple Jailbar Fix Guide has been included. Check end of this post.

* Current Revision (8/24/2014): The latest 2014 design (over the 2013) adds a 470 uF DC filter cap for Luma/Y to bring the video signal closer to video standards and help eliminate problems like screen flashes, sync dropout, etc. Many other tweaks to note also, so it's significantly different from previous designs.

(?action=dlattach&topic=13231&attach=6721&image)

---

** Parts List Review (Updated: 8/24/2014) **

• Resistors (15): A $10 general 500 resistor pack should have all values needed, check eBay.
• Capacitors (5): 1 x 22 μF, 1 x 470 μF, and 3 x 100 μF (circuit operates at 5 VDC, so a cap voltage rating of twice or more is safe: 10 V+). A $10 capacitor kit should also have all values needed, check eBay.
• Transistors (7): 7 x model "S8050" and that's IF you want the BEST according to steve, but you can use the RadioShack favorite/standard, the 2N3904. You can buy 50 pieces of the S8050 transistor for about $2 bucks on eBay from Chinese sellers.
• Potentiometers: (3) 2 x 10,000 Ohms, 1 x 100 Ohms. a) The 10,000 Ohm pots should be centered to 5,000 Ohms on both terminals to start the circuit off. Alternatively, you can substitute these pots with four 5,000 Ohm resistors in series, 2 for each line, with the center point soldered to the transistor base. b) As for the 100 Ohm pot, you can either get it or fiddle around with 10 to 90 Ohm resistors from your pack to find the best output value for the Luma/Y. I'll try to determine the best value for this when I get a chance.
• Diode (1): One, any cheap low-watt model will do.
• PCB: One 5cm x 7cm board is good enough to build this circuit on. Have fun!

This image is a little outdated because of how much steve changed the design. I will update it eventually. Stuff like the S8050 transistors shown is still relevant. It's just the capacitor types that have changed.
(?action=dlattach&topic=13231&attach=1304&image)

Notes:

• If you can get a ceramic version of the 22 μF capacitor, that would be better as ceramics are non-polarized! The ambiguity here of voltage direction doesn't best lend itself for polarized aluminum caps. Ceramics start getting expensive for bigger caps such as the 100 μF and so forth, so just pay attention to the schematic for polarity when it comes to the aluminum caps that you'll have to use, same for that last 470 μF cap (negative end goes to jack/TV).
• S8050, NPN transistors can be bought cheap on eBay by this seller, yankee_electronic (http://www.ebay.com/usr/yankee_electronic). A pack of 50 for ~$2 bucks, etc. Search his eBay store if he has them up for sale, and after purchasing, ask for S8050 so you get regular, full sized transistors and not surface mount, small type ones, etc.
• Pretty sure everything can be purchased at your local RadioShack if you're impatient, prefer retail options and go with the 2n3904. For caps, the 470μF are standard, (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12457711) but cost a $1.69+ each, so are the 220μF, and the 22μF ones might or might not be there though. They have a 500 piece $9.99 1/8 watt resistor kit (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2994585) or a $13 1/4 resistor kit (1/8w is fine!). PCB boards are $2.19 each, but for that much money, you can buy 10 pieces from a Chinese seller on eBay... There is a 15 pack of transistors, 5 of which are the 2n3904 (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062586) needed for about $2.99+ or so... As for RCA jacks, they are a complete ripoff at RS... So, in the end, I recommend just getting used to learning how to shop on eBay for this stuff. You'll have to wait longer, but your money will go so much further. Example, for $4 bucks I bought 100 S8050 transistors, the good kind that are steve-approved... They came, I tested them on my SNES mod, they work fine! With the same amount of money at RadioShack, I get only 5 of the needed transistors and they're generic... Pathetic!

Cheap hobbyist PCBs are plentiful on eBay (bought 10 pieces for $2 bucks) such as this 5cm x 7cm board which is perfect for this mod:

(?action=dlattach&topic=13231&attach=1302&image)

These wall plate gold-plated RCA jacks are also perfect if cheaper than buying 3 jacks individually, though they usually come in standard yellow (composite), white, red colors, but nothing a little good blue & green nail polish can't solve to give you the proper coloring for component jacks as I did here:

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff216/Sephiroth1975/General/GoldRCAJacks.png)
EBay Search for "rca wall plate" with or without "component". (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=rca+wall+plate+component&_sacat=0&_from=R40)

This circuit is still a WIP and subject to revisions. I have yet to build mine, though I was responsible for pestering steve to help me when I tried to use the R-Y/B-Y outputs off the HuC6260 chip, but we eventually found that repairing these signals outputted by the chip was not worth the trouble and that led steve to later design the Red/Blue/Y mixer you see above! There are plans by BlueBMW and steve to manufacture professional printed circuit boards of this, so you may be able to buy one from them in the future instead of building it yourself. But I think this will be an enjoyable mod to perform yourself (building the circuit), so that's why I'm not gonna wait.

Screenshots of the first circuit built for one of steve's customer can be found here:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/pcengine/rgb-mods-t174-s10.html
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/pcengine/rgb-mods-t174.html

---

Jailbar Fix Guide - It is also recommended that you perform this simple mod to eliminate the "jailbar" problem that can occur in some cases.

pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=13231.msg287992#msg287992 (https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=13231.msg287992#msg287992)
(?action=dlattach&topic=13231&attach=6717&image)

---

A little History here with the old design of the circuit. Steve said the customer was getting "shadowing" effects with this circuit. It tried to use the existing Luma/Y that the chip produces and mix it with RGB Red and Blue, but steve concluded there was a syncing issue with doing that causing the "shadowing" and what not, so he decided he would have to tap RGB and Sync to fully produce his own matching Luma, making the new/current design far more complicated. Anyhow, I leave a link to the old design for reference and just in case for others to fiddle with.

Quote from: previous_designhttps://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff216/Sephiroth1975/General/NECHuC6260YPbPrMod.png

its a fun build, but i wouldnt want to do it from scratch twice

I just asked thesteve for this:) My next project. Planning to component mod one of my tg16's.

wtf, that's really easy.  Has thesteve made and tested this circuit yet?

Quote from: Drakon on 10/07/2012, 01:02 AMwtf, that's really easy. Would this work with any rgb source?

Nah. It's only if the Luma/Y signal is already being outputted/prepared by the video chip and is ready for TV use as it is in this case (it's been mixed with sync and RGB). Otherwise, you'll need the standard more complex circuit that inputs all RGB signals and composite sync to convert to whatever, etc.

QuoteHas thesteve made and tested this circuit yet?

Yeah, he built/tested it for one customer. There were some hiccups, but it works now.

SFIIPCEYPbPrTest.jpg

So this will do component without the use of an external converter box?

Maybe it's just the camera or TV but that SFII pic doesn't look right to me.

Seems to be saturated with too much green, there's something weird happening on the edge of the screen (a vertical green bar) and pixels aren't as defined as I would have expected for a component picture, everything looks washed out and blurry.

Not trying to be a stick in the mud or anything, I commend your ability to create such a circuit. :)

Yeah this is an awesome circuit for sure.  My next question is, does the picture quality look better than that amazing s-video circuit?

the S-Vid looks a bit better.
yes my green is a tad hot

Interesting.  If you take the rgb from the console, amp it and convert it to component, then would that component video look better than the s-vid?  I must say the s-video from console is a force to reckon with it's the best looking built in s-video.

Quote from: thesteve on 10/07/2012, 11:39 AMthe S-Vid looks a bit better.
yes my green is a tad hot

Quote from: thesteve on 10/07/2012, 11:39 AMthe S-Vid looks a bit better.
yes my green is a tad hot

Mmm, that's a troubling thing to say... If that is true, no reason to go this far then... The s-video out of my SNES is terrible compared to the component mod I started on it. Dot crawl, wavy interference, etc. You get beautiful, rich colors, contrast, no dot crawl when you switch to component in that case... Anyhow, I will see what the deal is when I get going on my Turbo Duo. That wasn't the best picture you posted to showcase the results, but oh well. ;)

you might get better with a converter.
likely equiv to S-Vid

the green could be adjusted by R9

I"m just always impressed when people dream this stuff up and make it work. call me easy but tech stuff like this is great.

Quote from: NightWolve on 10/07/2012, 02:34 PM

Quote from: thesteve on 10/07/2012, 11:39 AMthe S-Vid looks a bit better.
yes my green is a tad hot

Mmm, that's a troubling thing to say... If that is true, no reason to go this far then... The s-video out of my SNES is terrible compared to the component mod I started on it. Dot crawl, wavy interference, etc. You get beautiful, rich colors, contrast, no dot crawl when you switch to component in that case... Anyhow, I will see what the deal is when I get going on my Turbo Duo. That wasn't the best picture you posted to showcase the results, but oh well. ;)

sounds like you have horrid S-Vid on your SNES
S-Vid is a type of component and should perform close.
it does depend on how the TV implemented it.
if the TV mixes S-Vid to composite first, it will look like composite.
if the TV processes the luma and chroma separately it should be really sharp

The s-video was definitely much better than the standard composite output out of that SNES; less dot drawl, sharper picture, I'd say like a 15% improvement, but the component signal was far beyond better! Deep, rich colors, no interference or blur, high contrast/sharpness, dot crawl practically eliminated when scrolling occurs, etc. Anyway, you took that picture before any of the recent tweaks/improvements/adjustments in the design, so that is not a good reflection of the mod. We'll see how it goes in my case.

S-Vid should never have dot crawl, as that is a composite issue caused by mixing luma and chroma

I wasn't aware the separating of luma and chroma eliminated such artifacts 100% ? I figured a reduction, not complete elimination. Is that right, s-video completely eliminates that problem ?? Anyway, if these artifacts I'm seeing are not dot crawl, then I don't know what to call them... While there was ~15% improvement in contrast/colors and reduction in dot crawl or whatever after switching from composite to s-video in the case of my SNES and this TV, going from s-video to component was a fantastic improvement by far! Big difference!

My older Apex crt tv's s-video quality ended up surpassing my other crt's svideo and component input both. Crt sets were really never cut and dry. Some companies took some serious short cuts on them, but as Steve said, you really should not be getting any noise in the s-video inputs picture unless they implemented a bunk method of handling it. S-video should be just a notch below component, with just barely a tad more color bleed.

While the theoretical differences between composite, s-video, and component are pretty cut and dry, the practical advantages vary widely depending on the chip actually producing the signal and the set displaying it.

The Genesis 1 for example produces a composite signal that is blurry as all hell. It gives composite a bad name. Doing the s-video mod on a Genesis 1 is an enormous improvement partially because s-vid is better, but equally because of the fact that the composite was so shit.

On a good late-90s/early 2000s CRT with fancy comb filter options and a system like the SNES which produces a rock solid signal, s-video is pretty damned good. With properly line-doubled RGB its hella sweet, but honestly even the composite is pretty great.

I have a CMVS with a NeoBitz and frankly the s-video and component are so similar I'm not sure I can't even tell the difference on my Sony XBR set.

I also have a JVC pro production monitor on which s-video is pretty underwhelming. Fancy filters and such are often left out of such monitors since there is no point in a monitor that scrubs the signal since its only going to mask defects that eventually make it to tape. Its assumed that your Y/C is coming from a camera or tape and is already pretty clean. Therefore on this set the component mod is usually going to make a significant upgrade over Y/C.

So yeah, it's all over the place.

I agree I'm just impressed you built this.  This's no easy thing to make.

Quote from: HercTNT on 10/07/2012, 03:06 PMI"m just always impressed when people dream this stuff up and make it work. call me easy but tech stuff like this is great.

As for the s-video from a snes, it isn't the greatest out of the box as demonstrated here: http://youtu.be/K8TcINkc7eE If you watch this video in 720p, the right screen is the s-video from a non modified model 1 snes.  The left screen is the s-video from my snes mini where I bypassed the built in video encoder and installed a sony cxa2075 encoder circuit.  The revision 1 snes ppu has blurry rgb right from the chip, the model 2 ppu has sharp rgb but the built in video encoder isn't as sharp as the cxa2075.

You made it 16x9

Take a pic displaying 4x3

Good luck with this mod NightWolve!
I've always been interested in doing some hardware mods myself, though I haven't really done anything beyond the basics...
Still enjoy reading mod WIP logs, always makes me threaten myself to explore this field more :wink:

Any other pics of this?  I'll definitely do this mod but not if it turns out like thesteve's screenshot haha, way too much green.

What do you know, my final order from China happened to arrive today, a 200 pack capacitor kit (http://www.ebay.com/itm/190736143983?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649) - it had the 22uFs and 470uFs needed! I now have all the parts necessary and even recorded parts of the youtube video for determining placement of RCA jacks and drilling the holes, etc.

What the hell, lemme throw images up from the video (animated 5 seconds apart, lighting sucks and so does the camera, but oh well).

(?action=dlattach&topic=13231&attach=6723&image)

How's it looking? =) That's my BluRay player underneath so that I could put the jacks in the most standard order and instead of composite where the yellow jack is, I got a s-video mount in place! In order to make full use of the limited real estate in that area and achieve 2 rows of jacks, I had to modify the PCB of the power supply input behind them. There's a stupid little "choke" I guess it's called, coiled wires going around a piece of metal in a plastic mount, and I had to desolder it off the PCB and solder 4 copper wires in place so that it could be moved away. Also, there's a plastic stand for the output power wires that go to the motherboard, and since it's 1/4" high and isn't removable anyway, I soldered it off and instead soldered the wires directly onto that PCB. That pretty much gave me full clearance to use both rows without any trouble!

Quote from: ConHuevos on 10/19/2012, 08:45 AMAny other pics of this?  I'll definitely do this mod but not if it turns out like thesteve's screenshot haha, way too much green.

Nope, not yet, sorry. I have to talk with steve some more about the state of things. From our last conversation, I gathered that he concluded that the Luma signal off the chip isn't quite as it should be and as a result, he's decided to build a full RGB->YPbPr circuit that would need to accept Red/Blue/Green/Sync signals and mix them all... If that's what it takes to get the mod to work on 8bit4life's particular TV, then the current circuit is about to get more complicated. I'll have to catch him on the chatroom and talk some more tech with him about this...

There's a tg16 tech chatroom on irc?  What server/channel?

EDIT: We have our own embedded chat now.

Looks great bro!!  Definitely this is something I want to do on one of my systems, question is which one should I do this on?

Seems like yesterday you were replacing caps for the first time, now you're building component PCB. Great work!!!

Quote from: turbokon on 10/28/2012, 09:49 PMSeems like yesterday you were replacing caps for the first time, now you're building component PCB. Great work!!!

Thanks man! Just FYI though, "stevie wonder" (AKA thesteve) of course designed it, I'm essentially helping to get the word out and I made a nicer image for it all! ;) I guess my role was helping to pester him into doing this, though. I was trying to use the Red-Y and Blue-Y off the chip many months ago, and he was helping me to try to fix the signals with circuits he was coming up with on the fly, but we didn't succeed. In later thinking about it, he decided it'd be better to take the RGB Red and Blue signals and mix them with the working Luma and give up on fixing the existing signals that the chip was producing. So that led to the current circuit that you see. I DID design and build a component circuit for my SNES though with what I learned from steve! I wanna make a separate thread about that later though!

But yeah, fixing my ole Express via full capacitor replacement was good fun! When I was in my teens, I actually would fix mechanical failures for VCRs for this local Resale shop. They'd buy the VCR broken for a few bucks, and gimme $10-20 if I could fix it in my leisure. Rubber band stuff, cleaning, worn out springs, even changing the heads with a new cylinder if I could get the part ordered from the manufacturer (my suppliers were Dalbani and MCM electronics), that sort of thing, etc. But it always bothered me that I didn't understand electrical components and how to handle their failures, etc. Normally, like I said in the video, when I was a kid, always wanting to open up electronics to see what was inside would usually lead to the end of the product functioning... ;) Ah well, it was all in the name of science! These were necessary sacrifices!!! Heh-heh!

I guess from what SignofZeta said, I'm kind of wrong about something else I said in my video, about the 10-20 year cap failure rate and that NEC just got a really bad batch of electrolytic capacitors and that's why their hardware has had such a high cap failure rate. Wikipedia suggested that if you don't power on a device that has such capacitors and leave them sitting there for 5-10 years, that could accelerate their failure rate, hence the use 'em or lose 'em bit... Well, I dunno... Anyhow, I guess the evidence seems to point more to that NEC, one of many producers of electronic devices, was the victim of a bad patch of electrolytic caps as were others of that era.

Anyhow, on the status of the component circuit, I'm currently waiting for steve's next revision... His latest findings are that the Luma signal comes out late by a few milliseconds in the current circuit design and that causes a color shadow apparently. So, expect an upcoming revision to the current circuit in the first post when I hear from him. He said another 3 resistors and an amp will be needed...

I'm sure thesteve will figure it out soon enough, that's one smart dude there. I'll wait until he finalize the design until I start on it.

RGBS from the chip (full encoder)

Lastest: SCARTcomponent.PNG

new circuit

Lastest: SCARTcomponent.PNG
SFIIYPbPrTest.jpg

slight update (id=79)

Lastest: SCARTcomponent.PNG

i posted on another thread already..but i modded a briefcase with component:
http://youtu.be/7dGWvIKSUzM

did you mean RGB?

That looks great,  but I'd like to see a "zoomed out" picture as well, kinda hard to tell with just a close up.  It seems to look great though!

If I didn't know any better, I'd say that's like the best screenshot steve's ever taken, minus him not resizing it proper for easy viewing though. ;)

(Same image, resized down to 2 sizes and pixel rotated a bit to straighten it out.)

(?action=dlattach&topic=13231&attach=1336&image)

Well, that IS looking good! I can say that now!! There's some blur, likely from slight camera movement that's very apparent with Dhalsim, but pretty good other than that.

If somebody with a RGB modded system and TV could load the game and take the same screenshot for comparison, I'd appreciate it. steve?

Anyway, good work man! I'll get the cap value and signal input details from ya whenever, I'm kinda busy right now, but when I get a chance I wanna update the OP with the new circuit. Or, looks like you added them after all, I see 470uF on C3. And I figure RGB Green is inputted at R1, and Composite Sync at R2 (or vice versa) and RGB Red and Blue at the bottom inputs as usual. Looks like only 3 caps needed now, but more resistors, a diode, and another transistor. Well, not as simple as before, but not terribly complex either AND still cheap!

EDIT: Here's a comparison versus the MagicEngine emulator. Either that TV's old and it's a brightness issue or the mod, etc. whatever the case, the blue curtain underneath the trunk of that elephant is failing to appear. Other problems aside from darkness like color vibrancy, even though this is not a fair comparison against an emulator, it does reveal some obvious problems that can be improved I should think. You should pause it and also have the composite signal hooked up, steve, and see how things look compared to its output, etc.

ME	TV
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff216/Sephiroth1975/General/StreetFighterIIChampionEditionJ-003.png)	(?action=dlattach&topic=13231.0&attach=1334&image)

Quote from: thesteve on 11/18/2012, 12:44 PMdid you mean RGB?

Yeah, he said RGB mod in his youtube video. Since raw RGB is also referred to as a component type signal, he thought that's what this was about I guess.

Quote from: oreo76 on 11/18/2012, 08:44 AMi posted on anotehr thread already..but i moded a briefcase with component:
http://youtu.be/7dGWvIKSUzM&feature=plcp

This thread is about getting a working YPbPr Component type signal out of NEC hardware; the circuits you've seen steve posting are not your usual raw RGB amps and what not. They're mixer circuits essentially, mixing the raw RGB and Sync to form Luma and also mixing the inverse of Luma with RGB Red and Blue to achieve the desired Blue-Y (Pb) and Red-Y (Pr) signal outputs, etc.

Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YPbPr

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ef/Component_video_jack.jpg/220px-Component_video_jack.jpg)

It's a type of "Luma-based analog component," a general description which also covers S-Video and it was the last analog signal standard here in the U.S.A. before the jump to digital HDMI. You guys had the SCART standard in Europe, we got this, not as good as raw RGB, but much better than Composite and S-Video, etc. The color choice of green for Luma/Y when it comes to RCA cables and jacks is somewhat misleading (one might initially think it's raw RGB Green), as it's really a mix of RGB and composite sync, but since green is mostly derived from it (along with the Red-Y and Blue-Y), I suspect that's what factored into choosing that color.

SFII-RGBvYPbPr.webp

you asked for it

Any other games? SF has always looked weird to me on component on old systems. It ends up looking much granier than some of the other games.

sure no prob

107_a3140bb55e579c41f10fab75c7d908c4.jpg

You need a better camera lol. :P

have one somewhere

change R14 to 500ohms
add cap

Lastest: SCARTcomponent.PNG

Quote from: thesteve on 11/26/2012, 04:06 PMchange R14 to 500ohms
add cap

I see two Q1's...
Are C1 and C2 22 'uF' or ?

so i got my Qs numbered wrong
yes 22uf c1, c2

YPbPr (Plasma TV)	Composite (CRT TV)
(?action=dlattach&topic=13231&attach=1342&image)	(?action=dlattach&topic=13231&attach=1344&image)

EDIT: Whoops. Little bit of mis-communication there between steve and myself. I had suggested a RGB v. YPbPr compare, but these shots were YPbPr v. Composite... Results are self-evident. YPbPr is far superior of course!

I gather Steves set is suffering from some major lag there due to the difference in character animation taking place between the two tv sets. Lag looks to be significant too. But anyway, these shots with the phone camera are way too shity to make any good judgement calls on quality here. I'd rather stay reserved until work is finalized on the mod and someone with a decent camera can take some shots.

i wouldnt call that lag, as the plasma simply is showing 2 frames at once (displaying as 480I)

Quote from: PCEngineHell on 12/03/2012, 08:23 AMI gather Steves set is suffering from some major lag there due to the difference in character animation taking place between the two tv sets. Lag looks to be significant too. But anyway, these shots with the phone camera are way too shity to make any good judgement calls on quality here. I'd rather stay reserved until work is finalized on the mod and someone with a decent camera can take some shots.

Eh, false alarm... Littl' bit of mis-communication with steve on this - figures, I bolded the question I was curious about (RGB v. YPbPr) but looks he mixed it with my suggestion to him about checking the Composite signal to make sure he's getting the color levels (and tint) right and what not.

steve, when I suggested a Composite comparison against the YPbPr output, that was meant for you, to help you make sure that the color levels just about match with the Composite output as well as the tint (on the same TV)! That's how I tweaked my SNES YPbPr mod: I would quickly switch from Composite, to S-Video and back to YPbPr output and try to get the color intensity to match just about. But yeah, I would suspect tint also might be an issue in your case. Kind of a no brainer, you probably already have been doing that, but it was just FYI.

As for the RGB v. YPbPr comparison, I wanted to get an idea of how much better analog RGB is compared to analog YPbPr in the case of a console, etc. I've corrected the labeling on the images above and of course they make sense now, seeing that YPbPr is far superior than Composite wasn't an unexpected result. I was more curious about how much better analog RGB is compared to YPbPr in this case. That's all. I was confused, I didn't think they differed by that much, but the shitty image was Composite all along... Anyway, carry on.

in my case RGB will be far superior, as my set supports 240P in RGB.
that difference wont be so noted on sets that do 240P component

Any updates on this?

i need someone to build from the schematic for verification

Quote from: ConHuevos on 01/26/2013, 12:51 AMAny updates on this?

Yeah, go ahead and build the schematic shown on the first post (http://pcengine.freeforums.org/download/file.php?id=86) if you're feeling adventurous and wanna help the cause. ;) Steve and BlueBMV have a partnership to build pre-made PCBs eventually based on that schematic (with RGB and S-Video support also I believe) to make it easy for everyone (you'd mainly just have to solder wires to the Luma, RGB and Sync pins, Composite, +5V, Ground, etc. and then to the RCA/S-Video outputs), but steve wants some more verification by others to manually build what's there before taking that final step. It was implemented on 8bit4Life's (a customer of steve's) Turbo Duo so far with success.

Quote from: thesteve on 01/26/2013, 03:07 AMi need someone to build from the schematic for verification

Sorry steve, I still gotta do a full capacitor replacement first on my Turbo Duo motherboard (I want it 100% restored before doing the mods along with plans for videos) and I just have been doing other things lately (SNES) along with other distractions and downtime, etc., so I don't wanna hold you up with your plans for manufacturing boards. I think the only tweak I could help you with is determining the best output resistance value for Luma instead of having to use a potentiometer, but maybe you like having a pot there better anyhow. I assume Blue was going to build it manually as well, no? Anyway, I'll see what happens; it's *ON* my To-Do list no doubt, it's just my energy levels, interest, enthusiasm, mood, etc. change over time. You know how it is.

Quote from: NightWolve on 01/26/2013, 04:00 AMyou'd mainly just have to solder wires to the Luma, RGB and Sync pins, Composite, +5V, Ground, etc. and then to the RCA/S-Video outputs

I just tried this and got nothing, I did have a 3904 in backward at first and one jumper missing, but all I get is black screen.
I see no place for luma, composite, or +5v in to this circuit or svid out, did I miss some things or did you list the extra stuff for no reason? ;)
I assume sync is used for S input, but a few posts in NW is talking about how it uses Y(luma) another mistake on the schematic or what?
Can I also assume it's ok to pull rgb straight from the 6260?
Where do you pull sync (or luma)?
I'm trying this on a Duo.

Quote from: akaviolence on 03/20/2013, 12:26 AM

Quote from: NightWolve on 01/26/2013, 04:00 AMyou'd mainly just have to solder wires to the Luma, RGB and Sync pins, Composite, +5V, Ground, etc. and then to the RCA/S-Video outputs ...

I see no place for luma, composite, or +5v in to this circuit or svid out, did I miss some things or did you list the extra stuff for no reason? ;) I assume sync is used for S input, but a few posts in NW is talking about how it uses Y(luma) another mistake on the schematic or what? Where do you pull sync (or luma)?

You misread that paragraph and confused that comment with the separate Component circuit in the schematic. I wouldn't list stuff for no reason... I simply mentioned future plans that steve/BMV have which is to manufacture and sell their own video boards (like JROK). Such a pre-made board would have it *all*, multiple video outputs: S-Video, RGB, and Component and all you'd have to do is solder the input end and the output end, etc. Such a board would use the natively produced Luma (pin 40) for the S-Video aspect, hence why I mentioned it. Why did I mention anything about it at all ?? To let people know a pretty cool idea is in the works, etc.

QuoteCan I also assume it's ok to pull rgb straight from the 6260?

Never done a RGB amp mod for a customer ?? I don't think you can tap them from anywhere else (never seen any mod where they weren't tapped from the pins of the chip) cause they're not actually used by the system elsewhere I read (The chip produces Y, R-Y, B-Y and CB to mix for a Composite amp and that leaves the chip). Well, here:


So, you got 4 signal inputs going into this Component circuit and +5V (plus ground) for you to decide wherever to tap. Steve didn't make his schematic very detailed, but the +5V goes into the power line the transistors are sharing. I just made a quick redo:

Lastest: SCARTcomponent.PNG

QuoteI just tried this and got nothing, I did have a 3904 in backward at first and one jumper missing, but all I get is black screen.

I would replace that transistor. Assume it's been damaged to avoid complications in building this.

Anyhow, good luck!

Quote from: NightWolve on 03/20/2013, 02:15 AMNever done a RGB amp mod for a customer ??

You may not believe it, but NO, never have actually gotten a customer to say yes lets do any video mod requiring rgb to start with, so far just adding composite and stereo jacks to the rear is as far as i've been asked to go, but I really want to sell what consoles I have with component outs.

Quote from: NightWolve on 03/20/2013, 02:15 AMSo, you got 4 signal inputs going into this Component circuit and +5V (plus ground) for you to decide wherever to tap. Steve didn't make his schematic very detailed, but the +5V goes into the power line the transistors are sharing. I just made a quick redo:

Holy crap! Why would you show gnd but not +5V!?!? LOL
Glad I asked about it! I almost was sure there had to be +5V somewhere...
Anyway, thanks a bunch for clearing up some stuff for me, you've been super helpful.
I'll go back at it today/tonight and report back as soon as I know anything.

http://youtu.be/qIJMu9OiOGc
Here's some video of what i've got, it's way too dark and maybe too heavy on green.
Can you tell me what voltages I should see from signal to gnd on rgb in's, and Y, Pb, and Pr outs?

Quote from: akaviolence on 03/20/2013, 06:22 PMOk, I have video (https://youtu.be/qIJMu9OiOGc), but it's way too dark and maybe too heavy on green.
Can you tell me what voltages I should see from signal to gnd on rgb in's, and Y, Pb, and Pr outs?

I cant tell you what is what, but I hope yall get this figured out.  :)

Quote from: akaviolence on 03/20/2013, 06:22 PMOk, I have video (https://youtu.be/qIJMu9OiOGc), but it's way too dark and maybe too heavy on green.
Can you tell me what voltages I should see from signal to gnd on rgb in's, and Y, Pb, and Pr outs?

The RGB input pins are high actually, at 4.66 V according to steve. A really good circuit will kill that all off by the end of it to where you read 0 volts on the output. Industry specs call for 0 to 950 millivolts on Component or general signal outputs (like Composite, S-Video, etc.). You can get away with 1-2 volts though on the outputs (I got a BluRay player that goes 2.66 V max on its Luma line), but if it's 3+ or more, that's borderline bad, not good for the 75 Ohm impedance resistors on the TV/monitor's input module in my opinion (but that's what they're there for, protection), so you'd need pull down resistance and/or output capacitors.

Anyway, that's not an issue for now. See my comments on your youtube video for possible issues other than just reviewing the whole circuit again. Gonna PM steve to chime in on this also, if he hasn't seen it already.

I get 435mV on Y,
2.25 V on Pb,
2.4 V on Pr.

your Y is low
what is R16 set to?

Ok, yeah removing r16 got the brightness right! Getting real close!
I still think blue is wrong, dark green is almost black.
Y is now 935mV, others unchanged.

Also seeing vertical bars, very undefined. I usually don't see bars in component so i'm sure it's not the tv this time, I almost always see jailbars with composite and svid on this tv.

if you need more trim r11, r12

also the bars are native to the system, solved by 2 caps

Quoteawhile i figured out a jailbar fix, but was waiting for further testing
the fix is placing a 22uf ceramic or tantalum cap from the HUc6260 pin 41 to ground, and another from pin 43 to ground.

NEC6260JailBarFix.jpg

Yeah, good idea to mention this; steve recommends that while one is doing this mod, that you might as well add the jail bar fix that he came up with which turns out is purty simple.

You need two 22 uF capacitors for it (16V rated or better). Solder one to pin 41 and ground, and the other to pin 43 and ground (negative ends to ground obviously if caps are polarized). They happen to be right near where the RGB and Sync pins are tapped, so might as well do it right after. Since the 6260 chip is on the bottom side of a US Turbo Duo, those small surface mount caps would work best in that case, see his 2nd photo here (https://attachment.tapatalk-cdn.com/3624/201210/107_3d3a9fa8a917b6fd1f60425929c9e93e.jpg). Japanese units with the 6260 chip on top are much more convenient to work with and using leaded caps would be easier, obviously:

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff216/Sephiroth1975/General/20130314222631_zps4cbf0390.jpg)

Made this nice one just now, close up, bottom of a Duo:

NEC6260JailBarFix.jpg

OG Clean:

PCEJailbarFix.jpg

I don't have any 22uF smd caps on hand, but good to know it's an easy fix....

Quote from: thesteve on 03/20/2013, 07:48 PMif you need more trim r11, r12

It doesn't need any more brightness, but trimming r11 down does make it brighter or wash it out is more like it, trimming down r12 makes it darker, trimming up washes it out just like with r11.
Well post more video in a minute.

http://youtu.be/uiY0JCAigjA
Vid showing dark green issue.

r9 will effect green, but will change brightness as well

r7 and r8 are green mix

I won't say they didn't do anything, but none made dark green look right, still black...

the green input resistor should effect green contrast, the sync input should effect all contrast

Been at it for over an hour...
I have what I think is a great image, but I had to mess with everything to get it.
I also checked to make sure I had good connections at the 6260 from the pin and I mean right at the plastic to the circuit, all 0 Ohm, so that's good.
R2 - 75 Ohm - lower would lighten the still too dark green but top of image starts to tear right, some still seem too bright a shade of green
R16 - 47 Ohm - made a lot of difference putting this back in
R9 - 355 Ohm
R6 - 4.76k Ohm
R7 - 9.25k Ohm
R8 - 4k Ohm
R4 - 1.2kOhm

Does that make any sense? Is it just my TV?
Too be honest it's too sharp! :)
The colors don't blend together like composite so it looks weird, but I guess that's the compromise...

lower r2 strengthens green, and weakens sync, thus the tearing (lower r1 would solve)
r16 reduces luma and luma offset (add cap across (470uf) to reinforce if needed)

r6 and r7 cancel each other, as do r4 and r8

try this
add 470uf cap across r16 47ohm
r4 and r6 5.6K
r7, r8 12K
r3, r5 2K
all others per schematic

based on the values you posted

Quote from: NightWolve on 03/20/2013, 07:57 PMYou need two 22 uF capacitors for it (16V rated or better). Solder one to pin 41 and ground, and the other to pin 43 and ground (negative ends to ground obviously if caps are polarized). They happen to be right near where the RGB and Sync pins are tapped, so might as well do it right after. Since the 6260 chip is on the bottom side of a US Turbo Duo, those small surface mount caps would work best in that case, see his 2nd photo here (https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach&topic=13231&attach=7935&image).

Would regular polarized aluminum caps be ok, or is a ceramic or tantalum cap really the best choice?

Yeah, any cap would work, from my understanding, but if your 6260 chip is on the bottom of the PCB (a US Duo), an aluminum cap will likely be too big when you put that PCB back in place. If you got a Japanese unit and the 6260 chip is on the top, like that first screenshot, then no problem. Ceramic/Tants are the better choice though, and the ceramic won't care about polarity, but they will be more expensive (ceramics >10uF stop being cheap). I noticed that Hudson/NEC used expensive tantalums on the bottom of the PCB and the cheaper SMD aluminums on the top (for the big uF values, of course you had to, as they only came in aluminum, so that had to be designed with space in mind, meaning they had to go topside).

Yep, JP Duo-R.

I might have to give this a go this weekend.

Already replaced C961 with a 220uf per thesteve and that made a slight improvement to the jailbars.

aluminum caps would likely need to be bigger

Quote from: thesteve on 03/22/2013, 07:43 PMaluminum caps would likely need to be bigger

I picked up some 22uF Tantalums from my local supplier.

side note
looks like the schematic runs as drawn
just needs some resistor values tweeked (ready for PCB)
may need a resistor and cap at each output jack to reduce dc offset (off board)

Finally had a chance to install the 22uF Tants for the jailbar fix.

Works great!

If there are jailbars there now, it's damn hard to tell.

Were you getting jailbars with S-Video or a RGB connection ?? Anyway, that's awesome! Supposedly, this is only a problem when tapping RGB, but just checking.

Good work steve, you mad genius!! How the hell this guy took risks with a video chip like that by fiddling around to figure this out I'll never know!

didnt risk a thing

Quote from: NightWolve on 03/26/2013, 12:31 AMWere you getting jailbars with S-Video or a RGB connection ?? Anyway, that's awesome! Supposedly, this is only a problem when tapping RGB, but just checking.

RGB. I see some very, very faint ones under some specific situations, but it's vastly improved.


Yes, thanks Steve for the great fix!!!

I just started building this pcb. Still waiting for a few components to come in.

Well poopy crappy poop. Looks like I am one type of resister short. Gonna have to wait a few more days to get them in the mail now.

My HDTV also accepts RGB via VGA. I will do both YPrPb and RGB mods and do a comparisons.

I couldn't wait for the 22uf tantalum caps to come in so I built the circuit using 22uf polarize caps instead. I get flickers between light and dark and sometime TV screen goes blank. I don't know if its due to the polarize caps or something else. Still looks better than s-video.

http://youtu.be/NL8Gihy6--I

Quote from: turbokon on 04/26/2013, 10:55 PMI couldn't wait for the 22uf tantalum caps to come in so I built the circuit using 22uf polarize caps instead. I get flickers between light and dark and sometime TV screen goes blank. I don't know if its due to the polarize caps or something else. Still looks better than s-video.

http://youtu.be/NL8Gihy6--I

Hm, I see a green decoding issue there, I guess related to this flicker you say you're getting. I'd guess that would be mostly a problem with the Luma signal. The + side of the caps should be facing towards the +5V source after the 500 Ohm resistor I should think (steve??) - should've made that clearer in steve's schematic last time I updated it... Note: tantalum caps are still polarized, you'll still have to watch that. You're thinking of ceramics. Thanks for testing BTW! =)

Colors looks good to me. I'm using an iPhone to record the video so that's might what you're seeing regarding the green. I will play around with the polarity of the caps to see if it helps any.

At first I had the two 22uf caps polarity with the plus toward the 500ohm and now I have the minus toward the 500ohm.  It flicker from too red and then too green and sometime it goes blank and sometime the picture is perfect.

I found some loose connection and now the flickering is gone but more red push thru every now and then.

No more flickering,  everything is constant but now it's a tad dark and a tad green.

Quote from: Drakon on 10/07/2012, 11:45 AMI must say the s-video from console is a force to reckon with it's the best looking built in s-video.

I would argue that the Neo Geo CD unit is amazing.  Almost justify s owning one alone.

I bypass r16 and got brighter picture but color are still dark compared to composite.

Component
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l594/superkon316/pc-enginefx/null-2.jpg)
Composite
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l594/superkon316/pc-enginefx/null-1-1.jpg)

turbokon, did you have to add the two 22uf caps for the jailbar fix or did it look good without them?

I noticed the jail bars too especially on blue background. I added the two 22uf it only improve it slightly.

An update on my component mod, I used 500ohm for r2 and 3.8k for r4 and got brighter green and blue.

Is this worth doing over a Quality S-Video job?

The quality difference is quite noticeable so I say yes if you're good at this sort of thing. If not, I wouldn't bother with it, to much of a pain to build.

I build another cleaner board and the red drops off after a few mins every time. It doesn't matter on how the 22uf's are polarize, it didn't help. Still waiting on my non-polarize caps.

Looks like I got the component mod working right. I used 500ohm for R2 and 10kohm for R4 & R6 and everything else per thesteve design. With the pots I can adjust the red & blue to my liking. I've been at this for a few weeks. Time for me to close it up:)

So, I finally did this mod on a system I had on hand and man do I have to say it is not for the faint of heart. It just took a really really really long time to build this circuit. It took me so long I have decided I will never do this mod again unless there are some premade PCBs for it cause it definitely was not worth the time to have the improved picture quality. Then again, I still prefer to use a CRT TV. So I suppose if all you own are Flat screens then maybe your will power to do this mod would be greater?

On the positive side it does look great.

I finally got my TG16 all closed up with the component mod. All I can say it looks fantastic on an HDTV now:)

(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l594/superkon316/pc-enginefx/null-3.jpg)
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l594/superkon316/pc-enginefx/null-4.jpg)

I am having an issue with Jailbars. I installed the two suggested caps for the jailbar fix and it doesn't seem to do anything to help. The system I put the mod in is a US TG16. The games you can see them the most in is anything with blue background. So bomberman title screen or JJ and Jeff work great for testing. Anyone have any suggestions?

Quote from: Keith Courage on 06/13/2013, 03:19 PMI am having an issue with Jailbars. ... Anyone have any suggestions?

I got two for ya:

1) From steve: Ground your mod video circuit (be it a RGB amp or our new YPbPr mixer, etc.) as close as possible to the 6260 chip - pins 55+56. You can bridge them as they're both ground for easy soldering of a wire! Here's a nice video I remembered that I'm gonna link in the OP:

http://youtu.be/uzoa51FMTKQ?t=3m25

I've also updated the Jailbar Guide photo to help. :)

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff216/Sephiroth1975/Tech/NEC6260JailBarFix.jpg)

2) You familiar with twisted pair wires ?? That was a basic, cheap way to help reduce interference as the ground/negative wire wraps around the signal wire, etc. The next step up, the better way was a coax design, where the ground is sheathed/braided wiring that completely surrounds the signal core wire inside. If they use aluminum wire, they'll even wrap it with solid aluminum foil. If it's just copper, it'll be just braided copper, etc. Anyhow, point is, if you're willing to do the grunt work, you can try switching from single, solid wires to dual ones that include ground, just like the very RCA cabling that is used for Composite/Component on the outside, etc. The best would be the thinnest copper ones you can find. Problem is they'll be bigger than the single wires you're using now... Solid twisted pair wires not so much, but they're not as good at interference reduction. Note, no guarantees here with this idea, but just a suggestion...

Other than that, I can't think of too much else from what I've read around here. There was talk about using more shielding over chips and stuff somewhere though. If you were willing to go that far, that is, etc... But yeah, I'd try the first basic suggestion unless you already tapped those pins for ground.

I'll try taking ground directly from the 6260 Chip first and let you know what happens. Thanks for the info.

Not sure how or why but using those pins for ground off of the HU6260 chip actually made my jail bars worse :(

Keith, how did you tapped the rgb & synch for the tg16? The first tg16 I tapped from expansion bus and the jail bars wasn't that apparent. I just did another tg16 and I tapped it directly from hu6260 and jail bars are more noticeable.

I tapped everything directly from the HU6260 chip. Maybe I should try the expansion bus instead.

I just tapped from the expansion port instead and man what a difference. The Jail bars look 10 times better. They still exist but now you have to look for them instead of them staring you right in the face.

I still wish I could get them to go away completely but I guess this is better than the way it was. Still very noticeable on blue backgrounds.

Can anyone confirm that jail bars are not present on DUOs? Maybe it's a US Tg16 issue for whatever reason?

That'a good news, I will redo this tg16 and tap rgb from
 Expansion port.

Yeah, the jail bar is eliminate with the fix for a duo, at least I didn't notice it.

Quote from: Keith Courage on 06/17/2013, 01:20 AMI just tapped from the expansion port instead and man what a difference. The Jail bars look 10 times better. They still exist but now you have to look for them instead of them staring you right in the face.

I still wish I could get them to go away completely but I guess this is better than the way it was. Still very noticeable on blue backgrounds.

Can anyone confirm that jail bars are not present on DUOs? Maybe it's a US Tg16 issue for whatever reason?

Oh wow, thanks for the experimenting. Hmm, so tapping ground close to or at the chip is questionable then. I wonder if shielded wires like I mentioned would make a difference. That'd be the other thing left to try besides that shielding idea (those plastic coated pieces of aluminum or whatever they cover chips with, etc.).

So to review, with steve's 2 capacitor idea and tapping the signals at the expansion port, jailbar reduction is pretty good now ?? Is your +5 V supply taken right from the regulator BTW ??

sounds like you may have a bad ground to the chip itself

Is there a way to check whether you have a bad or good ground with a multi meter obviously other then the continuity check??

If there is a bad ground on the chip itself couldn't I just take a wire from the ground on the board and run it to pin 55&56 to fix the problem?

Where you soldered the negative end of those 2 jailbar fix capacitors is the closest other ground point. Be interesting to see if that would make a difference.

I just installed the component board in another turbo duo and can confirm the jail bar is eliminated with the jail fix. So the jail bars fix definitely works on the turbo duo but doesn't work so well on the turbografx systems.

Meh, that's a bummer. I'll only suggest this for people with DUOs at the moment then. At least it works well with those. Personally the with the jail bars being put out by the Tg16 I modded I'd rather just use composite just so the jail bars don't exist.

I change the placement of the component mod board, jump hu6260's pins 55 & 56 to the ground of the component board and jump from comp board to another ground. This is the best I've seen regarding the jail fix for the tg16. It's barely noticeable.

(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l594/superkon316/null-36.jpg)

Another thing, I see that pins 41 & 43 already have capacitors to ground on the duo so I switch to 33uf caps with the tg16. So it's safe to say with the combination of all these things drastically improved the jail bars.

Fine work, turbo! So steve's ideas are vindicated once again. ;) I wonder why things didn't work so well in Keith's attempt, though. I guess I'll just need a disclaimer on any Image Guides: "Your Mileage May Vary, etc."

I'm going to be installing a BA6592F coupled with a 3 video channel amp in my duo as soon as my parts arrive within the next 2 weeks, I'll post my results.

In the mean time does anyone know if you can buy the AV connector plug for a turbo duo or do I need to change it to something like a mini din so I can make a component cable for this.

Everyone here has their preferences. din 8 jack, VGA jack, RCA jacks. all work well.

Ah, I just want something where I don't have to rip a hole in the system.  I want it to be able to go back to stock if I ever want to change it.

i just built a board up to test/inspect turbokon's board
im very happy with the performance of the board as designed
i also built it using all 22uf ceramic caps instead of the 220uf and 470uf i originally spec'd
the test was connected to the expansion port on a white PCE

as for the AV din on the duo, the 8 pin din is easy to find and would work for the mod

Yeah, I just got some din 8's in and will use this on the next duo I'll mod.

Thesteve, it's about time you caught up with me:)

I assume the jail at fix with 22uf caps works on the Duo-R?

yes i did it on a duo-r

I just installed the component board in a turbo express. I can't get rid of the jail bars. I tried grounding the two caps to hu6260, shield and component board but got the same results each time.

I'll installing this coming week and post the results.

The one you did had a stock screen ya? Could be the RGB lines being shared with the stock screen.

Quote from: turbokon on 07/06/2013, 02:30 PMI just installed the component board in a turbo express. I can't get rid of the jail bars. I tried grounding the two caps to hu6260, shield and component board but got the same results each time.

No, it's modded with a 3.5"LCD. I tapping rgb directly from hu6260. I will see if I can tap rgb from else where.

the TE has a noisy power supply, could be the cause

Is there a way to reduce the noise?

I am sure some caps could help with that. Also is this one lithium battery?

Yep, this is my original modded TE. I added both shields back and seem to help some but still not as good as the duo. It still beats composite video:)

I finally got a chance to move the component board in my Tg16 to the place you mentioned turbokon(in your pic). It definitely helped with the jail bars. It's not perfect but definitely an improvement. I'm happy with the results.

Yeah, in my experience, the jail bar fix works best on the duo. I have installed the component board in the duo, TG dock, TG-16, pc-engine and a turbo express. I still need to install the component board in my pce-lt and supergrafx.

I just installed a board in my pce I had thesteve worked on and it looks great. I didn't have to install the two caps for the jail bars fix as there weren't any. First system I didn't have to do the jail bar fixs.

Hmmm, so it works perfect with no jail bars on a white PCE but not on a US TG16. weird.

Nevertheless good to know.

No, just seem to be this particular pce only. I did another pce and I couldn't get rid of the jail bars. The only thing I did differently to this pce is that I replaced the three ram chip a while back, the one by the hucard slot and two on the main motherboard. I don't know if replacing these ic's affects the jail bars or not.

it couldnt be the ram
i just did a CG RGB mod that didnt need the jailbar fix right after fixing turbokon's PCE

My BA6592F's finally got through customs....only to find out I don't have enough rca jacks now >_>.  Need to wait for those to arrive before I can play with this.

Anyone know the impedance for the RGB lines coming off the 6260 by chance?

they carry 1K loads easy

In Vp-p?  If you have tools to measure impedance I'd appreciate the approximate amounts.  If they are indeed higher than .77Vp-p I'll need to use a divider to drop them down.

Well I am sure hoping this is going to be my last component mod problem. Anyways, I have installed the component board in a DUO. I even installed the two 22UF capacitors for the jail bar fix but the jail bars are still present. Now here is the interesting part. This DUO also has an 8PDT switch installed for a region mod. Well, if I touch the wires on the 8PDT switch the jail bars disappear. Any idea how to fix this problem? I already tried running a ground wire a wrapping it around the wires for the 8PDT switch and that did nothing. Only when I touch the wires do the jail bars go away.

keith its a wire routing issue
caps to ground couls solve it and cause game glitches

Quote from: ConHuevos on 07/27/2013, 02:36 PMAnyone know the impedance for the RGB lines coming off the 6260 by chance?

the lines are running open stock
the outputs that are used are running into approx 1K loads

You were right thesteve. It was a wiring routing issue. I didn't even consider it because none of the wires were even close to touching one another before when the problem was present.

Glad you solved the problem Keith.

Also, thesteve said this design should work for all rgb enabled systems by adding three 1kohm resistor to the rgb signals. Thesteve and I installed the component video boards with the additional resistors in our genni and its works flawlessly.

(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l594/superkon316/pc-enginefx/null-84.jpg)
(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l594/superkon316/pc-enginefx/null-85.jpg)

Is the last schematic posted the latest version or have there been updates?  If so, can you post them?

the schematic is correct in the first post

all the caps are now 22uf ceramic

Awesome thanks, currently making a board in Eagle to send to oshpark :).

Oh nevermind...read your post in the sales section.

Turbokon really should edit his post as he is generalizing that all other console will only require 1k extra resistance on the RGB inputs, when it's impedance dependent.

Quote from: ConHuevos on 08/15/2013, 03:43 AMAwesome thanks, currently making a board in Eagle to send to oshpark :).

Oh nevermind...read your post in the sales section.

Turbokon really should edit his post as he is generalizing that all other console will only require 1k extra resistance on the RGB inputs, when it's impedance dependent.

Thesteve, correct me if I'm wrong, the 1kohm resistors are needed to help with the offset voltage cause by the genni's rgb lines outputting at a higher voltage then the pce. Impedance is something different, is the ratio of voltage to current in a ac circuit. This design operates in a dc, so impedance and resistance are the same. Theoretically, the additional 1kohm resistance should work with other rgb systems.

Quote from: turbokon on 08/15/2013, 09:21 AM

Quote from: ConHuevos on 08/15/2013, 03:43 AMAwesome thanks, currently making a board in Eagle to send to oshpark :).

Oh nevermind...read your post in the sales section.

Turbokon really should edit his post as he is generalizing that all other console will only require 1k extra resistance on the RGB inputs, when it's impedance dependent.

Thesteve, correct me if I'm wrong, the 1kohm resistors are needed to help with the offset voltage cause by the genni's rgb lines outputting at a higher voltage then the pce. Impedance is something different, is the ratio of voltage to current in a ac circuit. This design operates in a dc, so impedance and resistance are the same. Theoretically, the additional 1kohm resistance should work with other rgb systems.

I'm curious about your design Turbokon, I notice thesteve's schematic on the front says 1K off the B, R lines, and 1K on the sync.  But on your PCB  you're using 2K on the R,B, 1K for G and 510 Ohm on the sync.

I can't tell from your genesis picture...but you added another resistor to the board, which is an additional 1K  on RGB?  So are you using 3K Ohm's off the R, B lines and 2K on G with the genesis?

the resistors on the board stay the same, as they are for signal mixing balance
the PCE outputs the RGB signals at the desired 0.7V output spec expected by monitors and my circuit
the geni outputs double voltage as its expecting 75ohm resistors on the outputs to feed 75ohm loads

snes working
same setup as geni

Hi Everyone, just wanted to thank turbokon for his wonderful mod work!  He did an LED, component, S-Video, and audio jack mod on my system.

My son absolutely loves playing and I am happy with the results.  I reiterate what he says that you do need an HDTV that supports these signals.  My TV does not support the component mod well as there is a lot of noise in the blacks but the image still looks pretty good!  S-Video looks outstanding. Check out.  (Sorry about the lighting on some of these)

Component
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a59/MotherGunner/AAA533A9-3386-4820-8CC0-9FCB18418CBD-6332-000005E2FE06FAA8_zpsee63e9f1.jpg)
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a59/MotherGunner/30190CAE-E1CE-4A4E-9F23-D3F6BBC74DE5-6332-000005E2F544F538_zps2d3676e5.jpg)
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a59/MotherGunner/91D920C3-6F53-44FD-B140-216ABA031419-6332-000005E306C4A817_zps36958a5b.jpg)
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a59/MotherGunner/6177A715-BD88-4CF4-8DA2-29F51F82C286-6332-000005E31AE9B19E_zps34055588.jpg)

S-Video
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a59/MotherGunner/B22AD901-2288-4C24-86B5-08FAD76C95B2-6332-000005E2E255BBB4_zpsdc5be46f.jpg)
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a59/MotherGunner/7A366E2B-F2BB-44BC-914A-52B68FCDBA95-6332-000005E2C20E9F7D_zpsea3e5ed7.jpg)
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a59/MotherGunner/AF497AC4-4EE2-46B3-8723-EBAFA0207C0C-6332-000005E3A127B28C_zps1920a409.jpg)
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a59/MotherGunner/07FD2865-40E8-4319-958D-A6394BCE3665-6332-000005E35A664BD5_zps08ef9822.jpg)

Will be doing more mods through turbokon when I get more hardware!

Thanks again!

No problem MG:)

Anyone else get jailbars on a snes when using this?  Weird thing is, I don't get them with my TV but through my capture card.  I know its my circuit because I don't have jailbars when I run my snes via straight rgb to my PVM or my capture card (PEXHDCAP), I put 2 decoupling caps (2x .01uF) on the 5V coming to the circuit but doesn't seem to help any.

Anyone else have this?

Got rid of the jailbars, added a 220uF and a 0.1uF bypass caps between 5v and GND on the circuit.

Quote from: ConHuevos on 11/10/2013, 04:31 PMGot rid of the jailbars, added a 220uF and a 0.1uF bypass caps between 5v and GND on the circuit.

I wonder if this will fix some of the jail bars I get on some tg16/pce with my component video boards. Do you have a pictures or diagram where you added the two caps?

For the TG16, I put 4 bypass caps on the encoder, and then 2 on the component circuit.

(?action=dlattach&topic=13231&attach=6733&image)

I don't use a 22uF like TheSteve suggested. 1 0.1uF Ceramic and 1 220uF Aluminum can in parallel for each pin.

I tried at first with just 0.1uF bypasses on the circuit and encoder but I still had bars.  I noticed on my oscilloscope I was getting some noise on the vcc line so I added the 220uF's in parallel with them, it got rid of them and reduced the noise greatly.


Then just put a 0.1uF and 220uF in parallel between your vcc and GND input on the circuit.

Screenshots using my PEXHDCAP to capture the Component:

(?action=dlattach&topic=13231&attach=6735&image)
(?action=dlattach&topic=13231&attach=6737&image)

It looks amazing on my CRT.

Big thanks to TheSteve for creating this circuit, it's great!

Turbo, I can send mine back.  >=]

Sure mother, you bet:)

Yeah, thesteve is awesome, without him, most of the mods wouldn't be possible.

I wonder if just adding the two caps to the component board will be sufficient enough to reduce the jail bars.  It will be benificial for component video installation in the ifu, dock or booster.

Look up coupling caps, or stiffening caps (same thing)
The shorter the wires the less its needed 2

I just added a 220uf cap to the component video board in a pc-engine with bad jail issues before, now I don't notices any jailbars.  I didn't have to add any other caps.

Quote from: ConHuevos on 08/15/2013, 10:50 AM

Quote from: turbokon on 08/15/2013, 09:21 AM

Quote from: ConHuevos on 08/15/2013, 03:43 AMAwesome thanks, currently making a board in Eagle to send to oshpark :).

Oh nevermind...read your post in the sales section.

Turbokon really should edit his post as he is generalizing that all other console will only require 1k extra resistance on the RGB inputs, when it's impedance dependent.

Thesteve, correct me if I'm wrong, the 1kohm resistors are needed to help with the offset voltage cause by the genni's rgb lines outputting at a higher voltage then the pce. Impedance is something different, is the ratio of voltage to current in a ac circuit. This design operates in a dc, so impedance and resistance are the same. Theoretically, the additional 1kohm resistance should work with other rgb systems.

I'm curious about your design Turbokon, I notice thesteve's schematic on the front says 1K off the B, R lines, and 1K on the sync.  But on your PCB  you're using 2K on the R,B, 1K for G and 510 Ohm on the sync.

I can't tell from your genesis picture...but you added another resistor to the board, which is an additional 1K  on RGB?  So are you using 3K Ohm's off the R, B lines and 2K on G with the genesis?

Turbokon could you post the current Schematic since the first post doesn't have the correct caps or resistor values that you're obviously using in your design and what value trim pots are replacing what in the schematic.
I'm trying to get this to work on a Saturn and it does work but green is too strong and the colors are off a bit, I have a 100ohm trim pot in the Y output but that only brightens the image.

Quote from: Helder on 02/05/2014, 10:13 AMTurbokon could you post the current Schematic since the first post doesn't have the correct caps or resistor values that you're obviously using in your design and what value trim pots are replacing what in the schematic. I'm trying to get this to work on a Saturn and it does work but green is too strong and the colors are off a bit, I have a 100ohm trim pot in the Y output but that only brightens the image.

Steve says the OP schematic is correct, except all cap values are 22 uF ceramic and that's good enough (That'll let you make a smaller board, no big 220/470 uF caps). Anyway, you're trying to use this design for a Saturn and so the source RGB signal is not gonna be quite the same. Like the Genesis, it's going to require some fiddling. I dunno about ole turbokon revealing any changes he made as he's selling a factory-made PCB of it. ;) But from what I can tell via the photo of his PCB, he used 10k pots for R4 and R6, those 6.5k resistors, making that aspect adjustable. So there's that, and I'd say you'd want to add extra resistance to your Green line as well given your particular case.

for universal setup perhaps some pots could be implemented? I know each of my systems RGB always needed a little adjustment to look right. As Wolf stated they are all a little different.

I had some oddball things happen and I had sync but colors were whack then after adding pots the image got a little better but my connections weren't great so I couldn't make proper adjustments.
My blue wouldn't do much when I tweaked it and then I noticed I had a 5v wire come loose that goes to the 22uf cap on the blue line and once I put that back the colors came out strong again instead of dull and almost black and white.
The only issue I have now is the SYNC which is making the screen jump, I had been using the Composite video and sync and was working fine but now it doesn't and the Saturn does have a Sync pin which I also used but its still not keeping the image stable.
So does anyone have any idea what to do to the Sync part of the circuit to stabilize the image without using a LM1881 which I do have but would like to avoid it since it was working fine not too long ago. I didn't touch anything on the Sync part of the circuit.

Here is the layout for my boards.

(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l594/superkon316/pc-enginefx/TG16_PCE_COMPONENT_V4.png) (http://s1125.photobucket.com/user/superkon316/media/pc-enginefx/TG16_PCE_COMPONENT_V4.png.html)

This boards works with the SNES/genesis by adding 1kohm resistors to the rgb signals. May just need to play around with the rgb resistors value for the Saturn. I will test with pots to see if they will work universally.

Thanks for the picture, I have just about it almost figured out except I have no green. I can adjust blue and red no problem and I have sync but there is no green or little and the image is dark as hell, if I can get it to brighten up and add a bit more green it will be ok. What resistors or any other component affect green and luminance? I have made the board like the first post so it has the 220uf and 470uf and I'm using the 22uf electrolytic caps since I don't have them in ceramic. Thanks for any help you guys can give me.

no green means that your luma isnt getting mixed with the R and B (or green input missing)

Quote from: Helder on 02/05/2014, 09:03 PMThanks for the picture, I have just about it almost figured out except I have no green. I can adjust blue and red no problem and I have sync but there is no green or little and the image is dark as hell, if I can get it to brighten up and add a bit more green it will be ok. What resistors or any other component affect green and luminance? I have made the board like the first post so it has the 220uf and 470uf and I'm using the 22uf electrolytic caps since I don't have them in ceramic. Thanks for any help you guys can give me.

This sounds somewhat familiar to the problem I am having while fiddling with this board on a MVS. I will just copy paste the PM I sent to Turbokon on here and see if, in more detail, it sounds like the same issue you are having

QuoteOk, after adding 1 kohm resistors to the RGB lines coming off the MVS unit I honestly am not seeing too much a change. Also, I am noticing more issues then I did prior on initial testing. Maybe you ran into these issues prior when doing Snes and Genesis, so I will lay these out for you and get your input.

1. I am noticing that on some screens red and blue are fine, but on other play screens or on RGB test screen in MVS service mode that depending on what the pots are set to, Red may be missing. I can jack up the red pot to make red appear in the RGB test, but when I do that and exit out to run a game red then appears way too strong.

2.Green is also bleached out and is more or less just a light tint color on the RGB test screen. Other times it will display more greenish, but not as colorful as it should be. This was both with and without the 1kohm resistor added.

This variation in color quality/intensity affects other colors too like yellow and purple colored objects. Objects that should be a solid yellow end up appearing bleached out quite a bit or orange'ish instead.  It tends to vary from screen to screen.

Any thoughts on the above?

Try lowering the resistor value coming from the green in. The board has 511ohms on it not including the 1k for the SNES/genni boards.

Quote from: turbokon on 02/10/2014, 09:57 PMTry lowering the resistor value coming from the green in. The board has 511ohms on it not including the 1k for the SNES/genni boards.

You know I actually considered this myself during testing and tried both with and without a 1 kohm resistor attached to the wire and just attached the green line a tad further down passing up the initial SMD resistors, but that did not fix the issue. Green still looked bleached out. :(

Try using just green hooked to all 3 inputs, then adjust for black and white output.
Then hook your inputs back normal and test 2

I have just uploaded a video comparison for the RGB to YUV board (composite vs component).

TurboGrafx 16 composite vs component comparison ( YS I & II, Lords of Thunder) (http://youtu.be/FQ3bkYTInLw#ws)

Video was recorded using an XRGB Mini going to an Hauppauge! HDPVR2. I can't get the composite to look better with that setup. :/

Let me know what you think. I'm aware that the colors might be off a bit, I suck and adjusting them.

Looks good sensato . With your permission I would like to add your demo video to my website.

Quote from: turbokon on 02/15/2014, 12:57 PMLooks good sensato . With your permission I would like to add your demo video to my website.

Sure! No problem about that.

Well, gave it the old college try but sadly for me anyway, MVS is a no go with this thing. The problem is just that the color quality will not stay consistent. I ended up going to a couple of screens that have multiple vibrant colors being displayed and paused the MVS on those screens (Sam Showdown II character select screen and a couple of different stages) and adjusted on them. Colors on them looked near perfect (including yellow and green), but with the same settings I still get completely faded/bleached out colors on other screens.

Also, where blue will appear vibrant on some screens, on others like the initial NeoGeo load screen when the SNK logo appears it is colorless. This is simply either a comparability issue with the MVS itself, or it is possible it is a TV issue. Sadly I cant confirm the possibility that it is a tv issue, as the other two tv's in the house that accept component video will not work at all with this add in board and the MVS.

I still need to try this board on a Genesis here and see how it does on my tv's. If I get the same issues as on the MVS, then that will tell me at least it is a tv issue, and there is a possibility it will work fine on some TV's with a MVS at least, and just not mine. If Genesis ends up working perfect then I will know its totally a MVS compatibility issue. Will fuck with this more later down the road and post an update when I do.

Just an update, worked on my tv fairly fine with a Model 2 Genesis tonight, so problem I ran into so far seems to be limited to the MVS in particular in my case. I'd still need to try the other two tv's we have here to see how compatible it is , but as is nice to see it worked in the Sega on my Toshiba.

Question about this mod, how does it look compared to RGB? I am really debating getting an XRGB-mini, or barring that a PVM, if I can find one, that being the case how does component look compared to RGB? Is it a big loss of quality going from RGB to component. The websites I was looking at say yes, but a lot of the screens in this thread look amazing.

Also, could this board work on a Saturn in theory?

A few colors may not translate well, but your unlikely to notice

It is a real time encoder so no frame lag

Anything that outputs RGB 0.7V and sync should work without much work  2

Quote from: bishopcruz on 03/01/2014, 12:39 PMQuestion about this mod, how does it look compared to RGB? I am really debating getting an XRGB-mini, or barring that a PVM, if I can find one, that being the case how does component look compared to RGB? Is it a big loss of quality going from RGB to component. The websites I was looking at say yes, but a lot of the screens in this thread look amazing.

Also, could this board work on a Saturn in theory?

ConHuevos described it best here :


https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=14876.msg320310#msg320310

Quote from: turbokon on 03/02/2014, 04:37 PMConHuevos described it best here :


https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=14876.msg320310#msg320310 (https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=14876.msg320310#msg320310)

Ok, nice explanation. I think this really will depend on whether or not I can track down a PVM or not. Man RGB is a pain in the ass.

Hi long time no see I was the original ginny pig for this mod. Has there been any advances since mine was done should I send my turbo duo rx to someone my rca jacks arent green blue red which is an ocd thing for me also lol. I think it was all he had at the time.

Second question is it still possible to put rgb on my turbo duo rx I plan on getting a xrgb mini with tax returns.

Yes RGB can still be done
The color has been improved a bit 2

improved compatibility and 0V offset on Y

Lastest: SCARTcomponent.PNG

OP updated! Good man steve! :) So 470 μF DC filter cap on our Luma/Y line, check, and now 7 transistors even. :) I tweaked your schematic a bit right quick, squished it to fit without horizontal scrolling, added credits, etc. Some day I promise to make it all pretty like my unfinished SNES stuff (https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach&topic=13231&attach=6677&image) to help make it more easier to read for the masses. ;) Want it to look as pretty as say this:

(?action=dlattach&topic=13231&attach=2110&image)

220Uf is considered ok, but 470UF is the standard
I also changed my luma input cap to 470UF as I wasn't happy will the Luma sag I was getting on my scope

just corrected error on schematic

I notice the 220uf at rgb inputs.  Is 22uf ok to use instead.

Should work fine, just better white level, with bigger caps

Please update first schematic again

C1 C2 C3 are optional
may help with some systems, but not needed on PCE

block diagram

(?action=dlattach&topic=13231&attach=2114&image)

So, I was updating this, saw you made quite a bit of changes, and then realized I don't understand the arrows to the two 10 KOhm resistors for mixing the -Y into Red and Blue that you did... What the heck is going on there ? Will have to simplify that as fewer people will understand that notation. Is it 5 K to the left, 5 K to the right, and the connecting point going to the base of the transistors ?

Quote from: NightWolve on 08/19/2014, 11:40 AMSo, I was updating this, saw you made quite a bit of changes, and then realized I don't understand the arrows to the two 10 KOhm resistors for mixing the -Y into Red and Blue that you did... What the heck is going on there ? Will have to simplify that as fewer people will understand that notation. Is it 5 K to the left, 5 K to the right, and the connecting point going to the base of the transistors ?

That's for the pots I believe.

that is a standard notation for a 10K pot
it shows a resistor with unfixed center tap

Ah, I get it, so the 2 pins on one side of the 10K pot would connect to the left and right points (incoming signal + inverse Luma/Y and DC) and the single, center pin would connect to the transistor's base.

What is the default setting to initialize the pot with that's best ? Like 6.8K was the previous solid resistor choice.

Well, lemme know if you're fully done with the design, I might just work on making it look pretty soon.

start right in the center, and you should be close
set the pots for clean white
in this version as the sync is separate, the Y pot adjusts contrast perfectly

Quote from: thesteve on 08/20/2014, 03:03 AMin this version as the sync is separate, the Y pot adjusts contrast perfectly

I was wondering about that, did you move the Luma/Y pot before the Sync line because of my pointing that out earlier, as the old design attenuates both at the same time, or were you intending to do that all along ? Just wondering if I helped again in any way. ;) Also, I take it that when a 10K pot is centered, it is 5K of resistance on the pins that are on the same side from the center pin ?

Anyway, I'll probably start up my prettified schematic.

My boards already uses the pots.  I will eventually revise the board layout for the additional sync circuit.

Injecting sync after the Y pot was to improve stability (eliminate a sync drop on white screen)
The 10K pots center is 5K per side

Here is the new revised component board layout.  I still need to triple check it again.  Note, original C1 & C2 are removed.  C1, C2, & C3 are at RGB or resistors can be used in its place for more universal application.

(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l594/superkon316/RGB-To-Component.jpg)

change R18, R15, R11 to 500ohms
increases sync current and picture brightness range

Major update is now live!! (https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=13231.msg261894#msg261894) Steve's circuit design is up-to-date as of 8-23-2014 and hopefully is in what's considered a much easier to understand image form for the masses. This is a free universal RGB-to-YPbPr encoder circuit by a fan for us do-it-yourselfer fans that works with many other consoles as well! I will continue to improve the OP, bring the parts list up-to-date and so forth in the coming days or so.

change R17 mine, R12 NightWolove to 10K

better black level, more consistent sync level
fixes picture washout on Genesis

Lastest: SCARTcomponent.PNG

note it should work fine with 22uf ceramics on the input, instead of the 100uf im running now

SCART to component converter

Lastest: SCARTcomponent.PNG

do note that its good sense to put a large capacitor across the power supply input + and ground
i have a 470uf cap on mine

@TurboKon

What components are required to add into your existing rgb-comp pcb? Or is it imposable to mod and existing board i have?

Quote from: crans on 08/25/2014, 12:47 PM@TurboKon

What components are required to add into your existing rgb-comp pcb? Or is it imposable to mod and existing board i have?

Doesn't look like it would be practical to mod the existing board, too many new components and require some new traces.  The redesign will increase the size of the board significantly unless I go with smaller SMD components which would be harder for me to work with when assembling the boards.

Another revision to the board layout.

(http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l594/superkon316/RGB-To-Componentv2.jpg) (http://s1125.photobucket.com/user/superkon316/media/RGB-To-Componentv2.jpg.html)

check it again
the sync amp is wired wrong

more like this

(?action=dlattach&topic=13231&attach=2160&image)

try this one

the designators have changed
R1 AND R2 10k POT
R3 100 OHM POT
R5 10K
R17, R19, R20, R21 75 OHM
R18, R12, R6, R16, R11,R10  500 OHM
R13 15 OHM
R14, R15, R7, R8, R9,R4 1K

C1 22UF
C2, C3, C4 100UF
C5, C6 470UF

(?action=dlattach&topic=13231&attach=2162&image)

Thank you turbokon. Seems I'll have to push the current ones I got real quick. One I can use but two others idk.....I can drop ship for you from California :D?

new designators to match board layout

Lastest: SCARTcomponent.PNG

@turbokon

Looking forward to your report how this is better or worse then your current mod sold.

the signals are more stable
higher clarity
better black level
better green purity
more consistent brightness over different sources and displays
higher contrast range (adjustable)

I might have to take a trip to all electronic and make one. Now only if i can find a clone store to copy my self 10X to keep up with work.

if you have the previous handy it can be upgraded much easier then building new (thats how i proto tested)

i have two ready to be upgraded.  ill have to dig through this thread and see whats changed and work on it

wow, i just looked at mine, i have a few resistors marked wrong
i had R8,  R9 2K not 1K
switched R9 to 1K and the color got even better

corrected values

2014 Lastest: SCARTcomponent.PNG

i picked up a rev 1 board from turbokon, but hes out on vacation atm,  so i wanted to see if anyone else had the same issue im running into...

I am using a PEXHDCAP capture card, and the picture does show up albeit dark , however as soon as i start any game play it seems it flickers and looses signal , like im draining the power as i hit the controller buttons.. i am currently testing with one game blazing lasers.

The software I am using is amerec and stream catcher and they seem to have the same issue. a strobe affect that cuts the picture off..

My settings on the capture device are 720x240 YUY2 59 FPS

I checked the voltages and seems to be low compared to some of the posts ive read.. so i dont think its a compatability issue..

I wonder if the new circuit design will help here.

heres my DMM Input readings

Sync = 4.94v
G  = 4.16v
R = 4.15v
B = 4.2 v
5v = 5.00v

Output
Y = 901mV
Pr = 2.88v
Pb = 2.61v


I am using this on a north american TG-16, after crafting my own crimp housing with jumper cables to the expansion port, so im wondering if theres any improvement in the new design that might help me here.

I don't have any other CRT to test except VGA, and a composite upscaler, so im looking around for someone who might have one to test.  I am also wondering if its a length issue of my component cables.

ok yes the new design does address this issue with some games/tele's, havent tried a capture card

try adjusting the Luma gain potentiometer. Some TVs don't like it being down too low or too high. Gotta mess with it a little to get that sweet spot so the pick doesn't flicker on and off.

I have to turn down the gain slightly or I loose picture using the TV in my living room.

lens?
luma perhaps
also the new board has much less trouble with it

Sorry I meant Luma. So used to talking to people about cd read issues that I guess my brain automatically turned Luma into Lens via my typing fingers.

Quote from: secnine on 10/03/2014, 09:07 PM......

I am using this on a north american TG-16, after crafting my own crimp housing with jumper cables to the expansion port, so im wondering if theres any improvement in the new design that might help me here.

I don't have any other CRT to test except VGA, and a composite upscaler, so im looking around for someone who might have one to test.  I am also wondering if its a length issue of my component cables.

He's back home now. I got a v.2 board on its way in the mail. I'll be sure when i install and test it and let you know. I have a capture card that doesn't get much love so i am looking forward to trying this out.

So I built a through hole PCB based off the latest schematic on page 1 and for the most part it works great except that there is too much green where there should be black. For example the TMS intro screen has a strong green outline and I've played with the pots and nothing fixes that green outline. I didn't use the same resistor values but it was close enough like 500ohm I used 512ohm and the 15ohm I used 12ohm. Thanks for any info.

Hi Helder, first off, thanks for going the DIY route instead of buying a board which was the intent of this thread, to not have to buy some JROK or similar board and learn to build it yourself. Very few participants have tried to do so and everyone else just resorted to buying turbokon's boards. I found that disappointing, but I understand, not enough has been done to reduce the first impression complexity of the circuit. The OP is very unfinished and more work on better presentation and guiding is needed which I hope will happen over time.

Anyway, I have a quick experiment for you to try. I dunno if it'll help, I wanted to be set up with my scope before getting there, but I am behind on it.

So, for relevant background, the formula for producing a proper Luma/Y signal for YPbPr when the resolution is 240p/480i/480p is something like this: Y = .299 (Red) + .587 (Green) + .114 (Blue). It's different if the resolution is 720p and up and the TV's circuitry would expect a different mix as a result.

Given that formula for Y, those first 3 resistors (R1-R3) for the RGB lines are what condition our Luma/Y mix to get to that standard which most TVs will expect. Now to translate it to precise resistance values is the trick/thing!! The way I've seen it done was based on the first feedback resistor to the first amplifier component which inverts the signal (thus, gives you a 180 degree out of phase signal, hence "-Y" and why the P [for Phase shifted] notation is used for P_blue and P_red). The properly selected feedback resistor is 324 Ohms in that case, so for R = 324/.299 = 1070 Ohms, G = 324/.587 = 549, and B = 324/.114 = 2940 Ohms.

Well, Steve's chosen feedback resistor is 500 Ohms and so if blindly using that same formula, then:
1) Red = 500/.299  = 1672 Ohms
2) Green = 500/.587 = 852 Ohms
3) Blue = 500/.114 = 4386 Ohms

So to get to the point, for R1 on Steve's schematic (page 1 of thread), I want you to try 1672 Ohms, R2, 852 Ohms, and R3, 4386 Ohms. R2 going to 852 Ohms will weaken the green by a bit from the 500 that it's at now, but since this calls for weakening the others, still couldn't guess if that would bring the 3 signal levels to the proper balance that the spec calls for. You see, I don't have the special insight when it comes to the S8050 transistor and how that relates to the chosen feedback resistor of 500. Steve does, but he didn't closely follow the spec and went by his eyes in this area I believe. The circuit that I learned this math from was using an op-amp and the feedback of 324 Ohms was like a special sweet spot for optimal operation of it and what not... I am blindly applying it here with transistors so no guarantees obviously.

For thread reference/research, here is said circuit/schematic, but note that it's not complete as they do not inject H/V Sync (unlike Steve's circuit) to produce a working Luma/Y (left up to the user):
(?action=dlattach&topic=13231&attach=8103&image)

Well, if trying my idea, you'll obviously need like 2 solid resistors in series or 10k pots to get those non-standard values (like 4386 Ohms) for all 3 signals, but I wanted to offer those values up for a test since I haven't done it myself. The short answer is though you can simply increase the resistance value of R2 which is for green obviously. This assumes you did the whole circuit correctly as it is tricky and one soldering mistake will seriously throw things off!!

Thank you for the speedy reply! I should have given a little more info in the previous post, I'm generally trying this on a Sega Genesis Model 2 on a SD TV so it should take 240p without issue as I have done so in the past with a different circuit. The board I made is actually a fabricated PCB I made so it would be real simple to mod and alter as needed so that I can later shrink it smaller using SMD parts. If anyone here wants a simple DIY board to try this circuit I can sell the remainder (9) for $5 plus $2 shipping if in USA.

(?action=dlattach&topic=13231&attach=6679&image)

So I guess as a safe bet in trying the values you posted is to use a 5k pot on the 3 input lines in place of the 500ohm and 1k resistors, and adjust them close to the values you mentioned and take it from there. I will post back the results tomorrow after using the pots, thank you again.

another thing i found running geni is the black isnt near as good, due to a wider sync pulse
the 15ohm brought it close to the PCE, but a slightly larger resistor could serve you better (or a resistor to ground from sync input)

Quote from: Helder on 10/08/2014, 08:49 PMSo I guess as a safe bet in trying the values you posted is to use a 5k pot on the 3 input lines in place of the 500ohm and 1k resistors, and adjust them close to the values you mentioned and take it from there. I will post back the results tomorrow after using the pots, thank you again.

Aha, I thought so, you have 1K for the blue line! That was a mistake I caught for Steve after studying the SDTV formula for Luma/Y. If you look at the schematic again, you'll see it was changed to 2K per Steve's judgement and my insistence that 1K had to be wrong because blue is supposed to be the weakest signal in that mix. But yeah, I'm a perfectionist and want to know the math to compute the exact resistance values for what those 3 input resistors should be, which is why I shared my research and suggested updated values. For now, the official circuit/schematic photo has Steve's generic choices, 1000 Ohms for Red, 500 for Green, and 2000 for Blue.

That's a nice looking layout on these boards of yours BTW and looks like your pricing is pretty fan friendly. Thumbs up! You could probably stuff it in a regular envelope, and slap 2 forever stamps on it for shipping in the US! Heh. I bought a SDRAM module for $3 bucks on eBay, he charged $2 for shipping and that's what he did, sent it to me in an envelope with 2 forever stamps! So shipping cost him .75 cents or whatever, the sneak! Anyway, trouble here is Steve may resdesign things again down the road, but at least this issue is just a matter of resistor choices.

My v2 board arrived today. I normally build alot of my mods but this one was so slim and sleek i decided to get the pre-made and forgo the building stage and go straight to the installing one. I'll post my thoughts on this board once i'm done installing & reviewing it.

UwtCfg.jpg

Quote from: cjameslv on 10/10/2014, 12:22 AMMy v2 board arrived today. I normally build alot of my mods but this one was so slim and sleek i decided to get the pre-made and forgo the building stage and go straight to the installing one. I'll post my thoughts on this board once i'm done installing & reviewing it.

/5bd0kz.jpg

Awesome, notice R19, R20 and R21 are empty.  Those are for other systems application.  Thesteve already confirmed 75ohms there will work for the SNES and Genesis.  We still need to test for other systems.

Quote from: turbokon on 10/10/2014, 08:31 AMAwesome, notice R19, R20 and R21 are empty.  Those are for other systems application.  Thesteve already confirmed 75ohms there will work for the SNES and Genesis.  We still need to test for other systems.

We have some great guys on this forum devoted to develop and figure out these mods. I really appreciate it!

Nice board! I guess I must have missed that 2k resistor on the schematic so I will give that a shot and see if changing the 15ohm to something higher might help. The Blue isn't the issue it's the green instead of black and I post a screen shot if you guys want to see what the issue is.

screenies help

My test calls for more resistance on green so still wanna see what happens if you try that idea.

1) Red = 500/.299  = 1672 Ohms
2) Green = 500/.587 = 852 Ohms
3) Blue = 500/.114 = 4386 Ohms

Just pointing out on blue that there was a mistake on the schematic and you wound up building a board with it. If my test/idea is no good, you wanna default back to Steve's generic values and just up resistance on green in your case.

important point to make
the resistor values will have a much higher impact at high light (near white)
also the pots are for green balancing
the red pot sets the cross point between green and red
the blue pot sets the cross point between green and blue

Sorry I haven't posted any results just been a busy weekend, but tomorrow is a free day to get cracking on it. Also I heard that there are ways to make a similar circuit with an op-amp and some resistors, ever look into this steve?

Quote from: NightWolve on 10/12/2014, 01:22 AMMy test calls for more resistance on green so still wanna see what happens if you try that idea.

1) Red = 500/.299  = 1672 Ohms
2) Green = 500/.587 = 852 Ohms
3) Blue = 500/.114 = 4386 Ohms

Just pointing out on blue that there was a mistake on the schematic and you wound up building a board with it. If my test/idea is no good, you wanna default back to Steve's generic values and just up resistance on green in your case.

Just to let you know I tried to values with some pots and it was sooo off on every color. I also tried tweaking each pot to see if maybe it would improve but I could never get the colors to even remotely look like they did with the normal resistors in place.

I'm going to try steve's method but I added a pot in the Green input to see if that will help and also increased the 15ohm to 33ohm, I'll post results soon.

Ah, thanks for trying!

Alright, just to review here, I trust that the two 10K pots for the Red-Y/Blue-Y lines were set right in the middle to 5k, 5k, etc. when you started it off ? You do have to adjust those pots to achieve the proper tinting especially with a dramatic change in Luma/Y as was done here, and they're not supposed to be exactly the same actually. Strength levels are supposed to be .71 for Red-Y and .57 Blue-Y according to the spec. So, output resistance of Blue-Y would be higher in a normal design, it should be weaker than Red-Y, but in Steve's case with the 10K pot adjustments and no output resistors, you'd fiddle around with just those pots.

Another test would've been to have had just the Luma/Y output from your PCB/board connected to the TV's Composite jack to see if you're getting a good black'n'white picture - that would be the best test for a good black'n'white picture. Should be no excess green, or blue, or red, etc. Then after connecting Luma/Y normally to the YPbPr/Component jacks with Red-Y and Blue-Y also, you'd have to adjust those 10K pots for tinting.

But yeah, I assume in your test you tried plenty of adjusting of those pots and didn't just leave 'em alone, right ? I don't see you mentioning any adjusting of those, just your custom ones on the RGB input lines.

Well, anyhow, that formula was based on that company's op-amp and a sweet spot 324 Ohm feedback resistor, so no expectations it'd apply to the generic transistor with a 500 Ohm feedback resistor. There still should be a way to compute exact resistance values for our Luma/Y, but this might not be it is all.

Quote from: Helder on 10/12/2014, 09:29 PMAlso I heard that there are ways to make a similar circuit with an op-amp and some resistors, ever look into this steve ?

Yeah, that's what this is that I posted earlier!

(https://web.archive.org/web/20170317065640im_/http://cds.linear.com/image/159_circuit_1.jpg)

Here's where that math info I wanted to test with came from (http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/6559f.pdf (http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/6559f.pdf) - good research material from this PDF!):

(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff216/Sephiroth1975/Tech/LT6559-RGBtoYPbPrInfo.png)

The company's full page on their circuit titled, "High Speed RGB to YPBPR Converter":

linear.com/solutions/1312 (https://www.linear.com/solutions/1312)

They're trying to sell you on their chips, LT6559 and LT1395, both op-amps, and that "high speed" RGB-to-YPbPr circuit is an example on how to use them.

(Single 400MHz Current Feedback Amplifier) (https://www.linear.com/product/LT1395)
(Triple Video Amplifier) (https://www.linear.com/product/LT6559)

---

Self Reminder: I have recently created PCE/TG-16 video testing software that I asked Bonknuts/Tom to produce for me both for flashcarts and as a CD-R for CD drives. All the software does is when it's booted is make an all white screen, all pixels max white, then every time you press button I, it goes to all Red, then all Green, and all Blue, etc. This will allow you to view a steady RGB signal when using an oscilloscope on the HuC6260 video chip on the RGB pins and hopefully help tweak circuits like this one, etc. I will update the thread's OP with info and download links later when I get a chance.

I didn't mess with those pots at first but the difference wasn't major so I didn't bother so much. So that op-amp circuit can be used with any op-amp chip? I have quite a few laying around might give that a go as well. I have some free time today so I will see what my last changes give as results.

The exact resistor choices are expertly tweaked based on their chips, so there would be changes with other chips. I dunno what luck you would have. Also, as mentioned earlier, they left H/V Sync up to you. Something like Steve's Sync amp would work I guess, and then you'd connect it to Luma/Y after the 75 Ohm resistor on the final path to the TV.

Oh right, they also assume the RGB signals coming in are 75 Ohm ready, like say from a SCART output source, meaning, 1Vp-p (I guess ?), that is, properly amplified, so if not, you'd have to remove those 3 pull-down resistors at the start, the 80, 86 and 76 ones. Dunno how well this would wind up amplifying weak signals even after that. If you did a basic RGB amp first and THEN fed the lines into this design, then no problem.

Man, can't wait to get going to try this out for myself! My new scope is ready, willing and able, just need to make the time for this project finally. Might just see about using my TurboExpress since my Duo is out of commission waiting for the recap job. Would've been nice to have had a working TG-16 to mess with as well. I won one via NEC's Turbo Titans contest, but it broke on me... The games would load, but the colors were all wildly inverted/crazy, etc. and I guess I just threw it away after I upgraded to a Turbo Duo for the $99 deal back in the 90's.

After tweaking things to where it looks good and getting rid of that Green bleeding the downside is that the Green is lacking or super weak in alot of places. When everything is as it should be with the correct color balance the Green bleeds into the black, below is a picture showing a great example:

(?action=dlattach&topic=13231&attach=6681&image)

Up close (notice the green in the eyes and hand outline):
(?action=dlattach&topic=13231&attach=6683&image)

what do you guys think might need to be done or altered in the circuit to fix it ? I tried messing with the 15ohm resistor and all that did was mess with the sync so that's not anything that could fix it. There must be something in the mix that is causing the bleeding but everything else is great.

I tried to find those amps you linked above and they aren't that easy to find unless you get them in China so I looked for something similar and found that the TSH344 and TSH343 used in conjunction could output Component.

Datasheets:

st.com/../technical/document/datasheet/CD00079538.pdf (https://www.st.com/web/en/resource/technical/document/datasheet/CD00079538.pdf)
st.com/../technical/document/datasheet/CD00079537.pdf (https://www.st.com/web/en/resource/technical/document/datasheet/CD00079537.pdf)

what input caps are you using?
i was using 100UF as my scope liked the signal better

I'm using the same 100uf caps as you and the schematic, could changing the cap on the green line affect the bleeding? maybe go to 220uf?

the bleed is caused by luma sag
either you have a cap reverse biased or need bigger caps
note the inline caps in your scart cable (if used ) will cut the input cap values near in half

I'll try larger caps and I'm using some RCA sockets so that shouldn't be the issue with the Scart. I'll post results soon on different cap sizes.

Well I tried a 470uf and it didn't change anything but one thing I also noticed before and again when I was testing with Sonic 2 is that in certain parts of the level where there seems to be more Blue the green actually changes hue a bit then back to normal once I leave that area. Any other suggestions to stop the bleeding?

a few sugestions
try it with just luma hooked and see if its still bleeding
try it with 1 input color unhooked and see if it stops bleeding
that should determine where your having an issue

I will try that but before that I changed some of the other resistors to pots on the green line and have had some good results but still bleeds. The only way it doesn't bleed is if I over saturate either Red or Blue but mainly Red. I'm thinking that Red might need some resistor tweaking, I'll post results later today.

Edit: Tried the Luma by itself and I can see a heavy outline on the lettering which is the bleeding green when I connect the other colors one by one. So looks like something on the Green/Luma is the culprit.

Edit 2: It turns out it was the 1k R1 on the Red input that was causing the bleeding, I put a pot on there and tweaked it till the bleeding disappeared and adjusted the other pots to get the correct colors. Now that I know the values I'm wondering how I can remove the 10k pots and put specific numbered resistors in their place and how to rewire them since the pots fed 2 location at a time. I will post the values I used once I documented them all so everyone can use them for the Genesis.

Edit 3: To get no bleeding simply change the Red Input Resistor to 2.4k and the Green Input Resistor to 1.5k. I also have the 100 ohm pot at 45ohms which looks great. One last question so I can refine a new board with these values, can 22uf ceramic caps be used in place of 100uf and 470uf? or do these have to be electrolytic caps or even tantalums?

if using the sync stripper a 1K resistor from sync input pin to ground is a drastic improvement
dont know how it would effect it running direct chip sync from a PCE

I've never had issues with sync unless this somehow adds to the bleeding on the Red channel?

It does not, however if red is bleeding, a resistor from the input red to ground will help

Well I also have a special bleeding problem. It´s white that goes out to the right. I did an RGB-Mod, using the THS 7314 Amp with 3,6M Ohm on +5Volt, 82nF CerCap to the Inputs and 330uF ElCap + 75 Ohm to the outputs of the IC.

(?action=dlattach&topic=13231&attach=2383&image)

To Sync I use C-Sync in line with a 220uF ElCap. On my 2nd Duo, this mod worked fine, I swapped the Mod and it also worked fine. So my conclusion - it´s from the Duo / 6260...

Any Idea where to look for ?

are you saying your running as an RGB mod, or running an RGB amp into the component board?
it looks like you may just not be loading 1 (or more) of your signals causing an echo

Hello The Steve. Its like this:

(?action=dlattach&topic=13231&attach=2385&image)

I go from 6260 R / G / B to THS-7314 Chip. I use the circuit enclosed. It works in serveral Engines (I´m from Germay and RGB-Scart21 is common here). For some Reason this PC-Engine DUO has her own mind... could shadowing come from the IC-Circuit ?

P.S.: your Component Mod is great ! Especially used on LED-Flatscreens it looks superb ! Would it be okay to translate and post it into the german Forum Circuit-Board ? (www.circuit-board.de (http://www.circuit-board.de))

yes, but i suspect thats not your issue
does the composite output have issues as well?

...yes. Let me check...

Just resoldered the Composite Video Connection - no bleeding. But still Bleeding if I use C-Video as Sync. I also tried to let the Kynar Wires go different paths - no change.... Also desoldered R, G, B and resoldered it, looked hard for solder blobs or bridges...nothing.  ](*,)

The problem is, my Oszilloscope is 600 km far away - out of reach... :-(

check your grounds and cables first
try a 1K resistor from the RGB inputs to ground

To be certain - 1K before THS to GND or 1K after THS (where the Signal goes to TV) ?

should be before

Soldered in 1K to GND for each Color - no change, still "white bleeding" in RGB-Mode. If I connect to TV by Composite, the bleeding is gone. I never had this Issue before...

and this amp/cable has been tested on another system?

For Certain. I swapped the Amp PCB with a working one into a 2nd PC-Engine Duo. The Test-System worked perfekt with the "bleeding Amp", the bleeding System was still blurring white with the "non bleeding Amp". I used the same RGB-Cable and also made a 2nd one with R/G/B to 75Ohm on GND. No reaction. What I might have found out - the Issue comes from the green line. If I swap colors the issue is still visible on the screen but not in white (...and not that strong). If I disconnect the green signal, it looks fine to me (but might depend on the missing color, dimming the brightness) ](*,)

the odd thing is your having an issue with white while using RGB
that means your getting the effect on all colors together

I use this for my RGB only need's.

Some things changed from original is use of 5.1M resistors for each color input to ground.
Using 0.1uf on all inputs and one bridged power and ground rail's. For the output i use 75Ohm and 220uf.

Not sure what it will help just my use of this amp

I will try it out this week. But it must be something from the Engine, as thr 3.6 MOhm Amp works perfekt in other units. @thesteve: yes, this is really strange - bleeding / shadowing with white I had never before...

its not bleed, its actually echo (bleed streaks decreasing from left to right, echo has more of a image copy shifted right overlayed on the pic)
is it possible you getting some composite crosstalk?

Just checking in noticed I put 1uf not .1uf as I should have.

Hello guys, back from sickbay this Weekend I will again encounter the "Shift-screen-Battle". Thesteve - your last Idea fits perfect to the issue. I used the Testsuit 240p and found out, that the Image is in deed double layered, shifted to right and not only bleeding. Update will follow...

UPDATE - PROBLEM SOLVED but still weired -

It was missing Ground ! Inside the 8-Pin-Din-Input, there is a small Ground-Connection getting into contact with the Shield-round Metal Part of the DIN-Plug. If the Ground-Connection is missing, you get the Problem. Weired: even if you connect GND and Shild inside the cable, the issue will still come up. You have to install the Ground Connection!!!

I am trying to install one of these in a TG16 docking station for the first time. I've installed this board in many DUOs and TG16 systems without any issues.

Anyways, I am having trouble finding a good ground. I've even tapped the ground from the expansion port and it doesn't help. The problem I am having is the picture will not stay steady no matter how I adjust the brightness gain pot. I had the same issue in a DUO in the past before I found a good ground.

Anyone have any suggestions?

Found the issue. Thought I'd post in case anyone else ever has this issue. Not sure how or why but the ground from the expansion port on the TG was not getting the same ground provided from the Hu6260 chip. I simply tapped a wire from the chip to the expansion ground and problem solved. First time I've encountered that.

This is amazing and I can't wait to get building one. Question though - would it be possible to make this into a standalone universal rgb to yuv transcoder if you source the 5v input from an AC adapter ?

Sure, it is pretty universal. Here's essentially a fan-made turbo booster using this circuit:

https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=14876.msg392378#msg392378 (https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=14876.msg392378#msg392378)

It started with TG-16, but he added the SNES Multi-AV cable for units that had RGB available all along.

(?action=dlattach&topic=13231&attach=2429&image)

that's awesome and more along the lines of what I'm thinking

In particular I'm thinking if I could hook up the circuit to a female SCART input so I could use it for multiple consoles and maybe a 15khz mamebox in the future. SCART in particular so I could still use the consoles with my upscaler when on flatscreens. I was hoping I could build something sort of like the csy2100 or the tc1600 transcoders. Just thought it'd be a fun project especially considering the tc1600 isn't being produced anymore (the developer passed away). And the screens people are posting look pretty mint

thats exactly how i had it set up when i was building this circuit
was swapping between PCE and GENI scart cables

did you attach both SCART pins 8 and 16 to the circuit 5v input ? or just one

sorry if the question is really basic, I'm basing it off these:

(https://web.archive.org/web/20220121183206im_/https://videogameperfection.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/saturn-scart-diagram.png)
(https://web.archive.org/web/20050526202458im_/http://members.optusnet.com.au:80/eviltim/gamescart/snesntsc.png)
(https://web.archive.org/web/20050526230918im_/http://members.optusnet.com.au:80/eviltim/gamescart/megamstr.png)

Just 8

awesome, just ordered all the remaining parts. I'll post some pics of the end product once completed

So, I have a question... I bought a few of these chips from Turbokon, and I set to installing 2 of them into a Genesis and a Master System. On both systems, with two different chips, my colors are coming out very dark. The whites look like a medium grey and the remaining colors are dark, as well. I tried tweaking the luma signal but that only served to make the colors look washed out, and not brighter. So, I removed the 1k resistors that are connected to the RGB inputs and replaced them with 1.5k resistors. no change. I'm tapping into a CXA1145 encoder on both systems. I haven't tried it with my SNES yet, but I wanted to get this resolved before I move on.

Here's a question: For sync, I'm tapping into the sync pin and not the composite pin. Would that make a difference ? I'm using the older encoders for this, so I thought without the LM1881 I could use the sync signal without issue (I'm using sync out, not sync in). I'd really appreciate any help on this. Thanks!

Edit, I have also tried this circuit on a Genesis:

(https://i.imgur.com/So9lYtu.png)

This circuit works fine, and on the same television, the colors look correct. I could build this circuit, but since I have the chips from TK, I want to use those instead. Thanks.

what version of the board do you have?
the original board works well with 1K input resistors and no caps
the sync must be C-Sync when it gets to the circuit (LM1881 or any other TTL sync source is fine
the new board needs the 75ohm resistors installed on the board and 75ohm resistors with caps between the CXA and the inputs (as found in the GENI SCART cable)

Hey Thesteve, thanks for writing me back.

To answer your questions:

It is the old version of the board. I bought about 15 of them a few weeks back.

I have placed 1K and 1.5K resistors on the board, both to the inputs themselves, as well as to the input solder points of the resistors (which had been suggested by Turbokon). The video is still dark either way.

I've tapped C-sync from the AV out as well as directly from pin 11 of the CXA1145 - there is no change in quality.

I'm in the process of building the circuit I already posted to show off the difference.

Thanks again!

well never had a dark pic issue.....that i can think of

I have one TV that displays the picture slightly darker than its other inputs using this component mod. However, it is brighter on my other TV sets so the issue could be how your TV accepts the signal.

Have you tried it on any other Televisions?

It's on my to do list. My concern is that I've used a different component circuit on the Genesis/SMS with the same TV im using now, and the colors are noticeably brighter between the two circuits, so unless the TV is sensitive to the output driven from the R-Y and B-Y outs, im not entirely convinced that it's the tv. But yeah, I plan on trying it on another set tonight.

Turbokon circuit:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/lastcallhall/Mobile%20Uploads/20150223_222915_zps2mm6zawy.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/lastcallhall/Mobile%20Uploads/20150223_223528_zpsn2bvnyms.jpg)
(Sorry about the blurriness!)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/lastcallhall/Mobile%20Uploads/20150223_222955_zpsskpnvovd.jpg)


Ace/Helder Amp:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/lastcallhall/Mobile%20Uploads/20150223_223307_zps6ro347pv.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/lastcallhall/Mobile%20Uploads/20150223_223317_zps9pnr4fva.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/lastcallhall/Mobile%20Uploads/20150223_223327_zpsi3ihabpw.jpg)

I want to be clear, here: I don't think the amps are faulty in any way - they work fine on the Turbo stuff. I just don't know what's going on when I connect them to a non-Turbo console...

Ace used a professional RGB Encoder IC (the BA7230LS) I believe, if it's the same guy I'm thinking of, and Steve's circuit design is something you can build from off-shelf RadioShack parts, 2n3904 transistors, caps, resistors and a diode, etc. Transistor video buffer amps/drivers will never perform as well as specialized ICs (likely with internal op-amps) that convert RGB-to-YPbPr. The thing about Steve's circuit is that anyone with some solder skills can build it and cheaply (shopping via eBay!). Not crazy about the pricing of turbo's boards built on the free design, but the full circuit is freely shown here for all of us Do-It-Yourselfers out there (unlike say JROK), so something to consider as far as pros/cons...

Actually, Ace is a cool guy and also released his circuit design, but you gotta buy a custom IC, that BA7230LS chip. Here goes for others:

(?action=dlattach&topic=13231&attach=6685&image)

It's a BA7230LS - I have ~100 of them sitting on my bench. It's just a video encoder. You can get them for a dollar or so if you buy a lot of them (which is how I wound up with ~100 of them)...

I know im being a pain in the ass wanting to get the circuit to work for something other than the Turbo stuff, but I'm really interested in the circuit's output, especially based on the pics that TK put on his thread. The output looks crystal clear, and no jailbars, which is the seller for me. Ace's design still has jailbars on the Model 1 Gennys and the Master Systems. If I can get a clear pic out of the TK board, then Im all for trying to figure this out. I just have no idea where to start...

Hm, maybe I'll hit you up and buy a 5 pack off of ya.

There was a newer version released recently:

(https://i.imgur.com/So9lYtu.png)

I'm also interested in grabbing some of those BA7230LS

RE: Ace's circuit. That's a really old design. Here's the current design:

(https://i.imgur.com/So9lYtu.png)

I actually just made a board through OSHPark today that got sent off to fabrication:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/lastcallhall/RGBtoComponentBoardV22_zpsac0616cd.jpg)

In a few weeks I hope to see how they turn out, as I've been using an older design prior to today.

Well, that appears to be when you can't obtain a clean source of the H/V Sync, so instead you tap the Composite output and it thus requires buying a Sync stripper. I don't need that, but yeah, others might, so might as well include it here. Is there an update without the stripper ? I'll edit it into my earlier post.

He started adding the LM1881 in version 2.0.

i wonder how the power usage compares?

another note, i know the TK board (my circuit) can do better then that on the genesis
during the circuit redesign i was switching between un-amped PCE and GENI SCART for my input
had good results with 75ohm and 220uf in the scart cable and 75ohm to ground after the cable

Now if only rid the TG-16 of jailbars once and for all?

lastcallhall, I'm curious as why yours as so dark.

Quote from: NightWolve on 02/24/2015, 01:05 AMAce used a professional RGB Encoder IC (the BA7230LS) I believe, if it's the same guy I'm thinking of, and Steve's circuit design is something you can build from off-shelf RadioShack parts, 2n3904 transistors, caps, resistors and a diode, etc. Transistor video buffer amps/drivers will never perform as well as specialized ICs (likely with internal op-amps) that convert RGB-to-YPbPr. The thing about Steve's circuit is that anyone with some solder skills can build it and cheaply (shopping via eBay!). Not crazy about the pricing of turbo's boards built on the free design, but the full circuit is freely shown here for all of us Do-It-Yourselfers out there (unlike say JROK), so something to consider as far as pros/cons...

Actually, Ace is a cool guy and also released his circuit design, but you gotta buy a custom IC, that BA7230LS chip. Here goes for others:

(?action=dlattach&topic=13231&attach=6685&image)

night, I would have to disagree with you my friend. Just because you have some soldering skill, doesn't mean you can build the board easily using thesteve's circuit design.  I know I had a heck of a time building the prototype.  Good to do it once that's it.  Even with the prefab boards, still takes a lot of time to put one together, very tedious, all done by hand.  With that, I think my pricing is fair.

Lastcallhal, where are you getting your signals from?  I tapped every signals off the CXA1145 chip on a model 1 genesis.  I'm still using version 1 component board.

If you have enough solder skills, can buy all the parts and want a weekend project, it can be done. "Easily" is not my word, but it is something that requires patience and understanding of schematics, sure. The aim of this thread is to teach people how to do it themselves in principle and not take the easy way out of buying a pre-made board, as nice as it is. Anyway, I don't know the net cost of your boards, but I do know for what it is, what it does, versus what you can buy for the same amount of money, it's not much of a deal, so, just calling it like I see it.

Quote from: NightWolve on 03/02/2015, 07:46 PMIf you have enough solder skills, can buy all the parts and want a weekend project, it can be done. "Easily" is not my word, but it is something that requires patience and understanding of schematics, sure. The aim of this thread is to teach people how to do it themselves in principle and not take the easy way out of buying a pre-made board, as nice as it is. Anyway, I don't know the net cost of your boards, but I do know for what it is, what it does, versus what you can buy for the same amount of money, it's not much of a deal, so, just calling it like I see it.

If I would have known you can buy something better that already does this at a better price, I wouldn't have invested a lot of time into getting this made.  These are all built by hand.  Not to mentioned the time it took to layout the board design from the circuit and trouble shooting but ok.....

I agree with TK here.  Of course you can build them on your own.  I did just that with the region mod chips back in the day.  Building them on protoboards sucked so I spent the time (hours upon hours) working with thesteve to develop the first region mod chip boards.  Then shelled out significant money up front to get them made and order the appropriate parts.  All in all it was a large investment of time and money to make them.  And that time effort etc was reflected in the price.   These component encoders are at least 3 times as big and have more components and are about twice as expensive.  I think the price is justified.

Anyone is welcome to build it themselves from the info posted here.  And I'll bet if someone ran into trouble building their own TK would gladly help out.   If it's more trouble than its worth for some people then the pre made board is the way to go for some people.  If it saves three or four hours of frustration / lost time then it's definitely a just price.

If you think it can be made and offered cheaper NW... This is America, make it happen!

My $0.02.... carry on.

Quote from: thesteve on 03/02/2015, 02:57 AManother note, i know the TK board (my circuit) can do better then that on the genesis
during the circuit redesign i was switching between un-amped PCE and GENI SCART for my input
had good results with 75ohm and 220uf in the scart cable and 75ohm to ground after the cable

Thanks for the tip. I'll try terminating the signals the same way.

Quote from: turbokon on 03/02/2015, 07:33 PMLastcallhal, where are you getting your signals from?  I tapped every signals off the CXA1145 chip on a model 1 genesis.  I'm still using version 1 component board.

I am tapping from pins 21-23 on the CXA1145 for RGB, and I've tried the component out AND the sync out from the DIN-8 jack from the back of the console for a sync signal.

These are the same signals I'm using for Ace's board, too.

Quote from: lastcallhall on 02/24/2015, 01:36 AMRE: Ace's circuit. That's a really old design. Here's the current design:

(https://i.imgur.com/So9lYtu.png)

I actually just made a board through OSHPark today that got sent off to fabrication:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v445/lastcallhall/RGBtoComponentBoardV22_zpsac0616cd.jpg)

In a few weeks I hope to see how they turn out, as I've been using an older design prior to today.

Finally got a response from him. It looks like he made a decision to invest in one single design and make it as universal as possible. He indicates that this way makes both cases of having a clean H/V Sync or a Composite signal the most compatible/universal. Thus, you won't see an update without that Sync Stripping chip by him... I understand, but that's too bad. So a clean H/V Sync is supposed to go through that LM1881 chip as well. Doesn't seem ideal to me, but I don't have Steve's brain to know the pros/cons nor do I know Ace's experiences with how well this is working out, etc. One good chip that also accepted a Sync input would be great to properly mix it internally.

Looks like low voltage to me.  Might try a different voltage source.  I think thesteve design has a higher power consumption then acer's,

Quote from: turbokon on 03/05/2015, 01:20 PMLooks like low voltage to me.  Might try a different voltage source.  I think thesteve design has a higher power consumption then acer's,

I'd like to hear TheSteve's take on this, as the circuit seems to use mostly passive components. I mean, if I can power an IC AND a sync stripper using the same +5v source that I have connected to your circuit, im hesitant to think it's a power consumption issue.

Unless you're suggesting that I tap into the ~11V input voltage for the circuit...

11v will be over kill, I don't think the transistors can handle more than 7v, have to double check on that.  Passive component also consumes power,  P=Isquare x R.

as most of the circuit voltages are relative it may run at 11V (not that id recommend it)
could also burn out as it would increase the heat in the transistors
i dont think its low voltage

slight update
for picture improvement add a 22uf cap across D1
this will reduce noise in the luma circuit and make it less sensitive to different input signal levels
major improvement noted on SNES

I was kinda curious. On the board Turbokon is selling, is there a way to keep the thing from losing sync on the GBS 8200 when using a Turbo/PCE? Happens during flashing screens. Even on my Toshiba it slightly happens depending on how long the flash is going on, but on the GBS it can completely cripple gameplay. Any thoughts?

version2 should fix that prof
what version have you tried

well i have a GBS8200 and a version2 handy so i tried some cards
didnt get a full screen flash on anything, but sync was solid on everything i had handy
LEGEND OF SUSANO has a 3/4 screen flash and it was solid

I've noticed that if you change the Luma gain it can fix the video cutting out problems. some TVs like it higher and some like it lower. this holds true especially when using the older style component board.

one TV that I own requires me to get the luma gain in a sweet spot that isn't too high or too low for the screen to stay constant and solid whereas other TVs I've tested it on have no problem at all.

I received my RGB to component V2 a day ago and I am now just opening it up.

These are soldered by hand correct? I mean seriously, this thing looks like it was done on a machine! If they are done by a machine ok nvm... but... What size solder diameter are you using?
I am using .032 and I think now that it is too large to be using for super clean solder joints like what I see on this board.

Btw, thanks for a great product for those of us that don't want to do it by hand. I mean really, what is $25 bucks nowadays anyways? Half a tank of gas... One visit to a restaurant by myself... A 12pk of good beer. So yes, thank you and if everything goes good I won't have any questions.

Hopefully get to it this weekend or the next. I still need my Din 8 port and scart cable I am going to use. This weekend if Radio Shack has any of it if not next weekend most likely as I will have to order online.

Quote from: MNKyDeth on 04/23/2015, 08:10 AMThese are soldered by hand correct? I mean seriously, this thing looks like it was done on a machine! If they are done by a machine ok nvm... but... What size solder diameter are you using?
I am using .032 and I think now that it is too large to be using for super clean solder joints like what I see on this board.

You will get cleaner looking joints if use extra flux.  Shouldn't have much to do with the solder diameter.  Pick up a something like this (this is what I use):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kester-951-Soldering-Flux-Pen-Low-Solids-No-Clean-10ml-Xbox-360-PS3-Reflows-/360972271403 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kester-951-Soldering-Flux-Pen-Low-Solids-No-Clean-10ml-Xbox-360-PS3-Reflows-/360972271403)

Ahh ok, I always use rosin-core solder so assumed the flux already in it was enough. Just added to my list of things to pick up or order. Thank you.

I believe they are assembled by hand but with solder paste and a hot air station or oven.

Quote from: thesteve on 04/22/2015, 01:35 AMwell i have a GBS8200 and a version2 handy so i tried some cards
didnt get a full screen flash on anything, but sync was solid on everything i had handy
LEGEND OF SUSANO has a 3/4 screen flash and it was solid

Version I have here is a V2 I believe. It is installed in a Ten No Koe 2. In Side Arms it will happen on the wheel boss if I remember right. On like Neutopia it will happen during the lightning flash at the temple when you first start the game. Any idea on how to fix it? My Toshiba via component in copes with it much better, but the GBS via component in will lose synch for a brief second when that kind of flashing occurs.

Also adding 1kohm from sync to ground helps with sync issues on some TV set.

Yep these are assembled by hand using solder paste and hot air gun.  Very tedious I must add.

Yep these are assembled by hand using solder paste and hot air gun.  Very tedious.

Quote from: PCEngineHell on 04/23/2015, 10:21 PM

Quote from: thesteve on 04/22/2015, 01:35 AMwell i have a GBS8200 and a version2 handy so i tried some cards
didnt get a full screen flash on anything, but sync was solid on everything i had handy
LEGEND OF SUSANO has a 3/4 screen flash and it was solid

Version I have here is a V2 I believe. It is installed in a Ten No Koe 2. In Side Arms it will happen on the wheel boss if I remember right. On like Neutopia it will happen during the lightning flash at the temple when you first start the game. Any idea on how to fix it? My Toshiba via component in copes with it much better, but the GBS via component in will lose synch for a brief second when that kind of flashing occurs.

try adding a cap across the diode. (diode is marked D1, the cap will be - to stripe and will never see over 1V)
that should improve the luma stability and may be enough to get you there
the 1 i tested the GBS on has a 22uf across the diode and is a ver2 board

Quote from: thesteve on 04/24/2015, 02:01 AM

Quote from: PCEngineHell on 04/23/2015, 10:21 PM

Quote from: thesteve on 04/22/2015, 01:35 AMwell i have a GBS8200 and a version2 handy so i tried some cards
didnt get a full screen flash on anything, but sync was solid on everything i had handy
LEGEND OF SUSANO has a 3/4 screen flash and it was solid

Version I have here is a V2 I believe. It is installed in a Ten No Koe 2. In Side Arms it will happen on the wheel boss if I remember right. On like Neutopia it will happen during the lightning flash at the temple when you first start the game. Any idea on how to fix it? My Toshiba via component in copes with it much better, but the GBS via component in will lose synch for a brief second when that kind of flashing occurs.

try adding a cap across the diode. (diode is marked D1, the cap will be + to stripe and will never see over 1V)
that should improve the luma stability and may be enough to get you there
the 1 i tested the GBS on has a 22uf across the diode and is a ver2 board

Sorry, having an off/tired day, so going to need this to be more specific. When you say stripe, are you referring to the line marking "cathode" on the diode, or the stripe on the cap itself? If the former, I have never heard anyone refer to the cathode end of a surface mount diode as a stripe before, so kinda confusing. I usually only see that term applied to cap's stripe side in reference to the negative polarity of a capacitor.

/diode%20mess_zpsoz0iuags.png

the cathode on the diode is your -

looks like i said it wrong the first time anyway

Quote from: thesteve on 04/25/2015, 08:36 PMlooks like i said it wrong the first time anyway

So edit your post and fix that shit. People be all confused and like wtf. :P

Tried both the 22uf cap on the diode, then the 1k resistor from sync to ground. Neither method had any affect. Sync still drops on the GBS when the lightning flashes on Neutopia at the start of the game, and kinda slightly wavers on my Toshiba. The issue on the Toshiba is more of a nitpick, but the GBS thing is pretty annoying since it cripples gameplay on Side Arms on some of the bosses.

Quote from: PCEngineHell on 04/26/2015, 02:28 PMTried both the 22uf cap on the diode, then the 1k resistor from sync to ground. Neither method had any affect. Sync still drops on the GBS when the lightning flashes on Neutopia at the start of the game, and kinda slightly wavers on my Toshiba. The issue on the Toshiba is more of a nitpick, but the GBS thing is pretty annoying since it cripples gameplay on Side Arms on some of the bosses.

Did you try messing with the luma gain yet? I've come a cross a few TVs that need it set in a specific spot to get the screen to stop being wavy/flickering. Different luma setting for both Tvs I have come across the issue with. Otherwise most other TVs work just fine.

Nope not yet. Was hoping to just have a solution that wont affect use on other tv's. Honestly at this point I'm not going to worry about it. The Toshiba is fine. The Side Arms flash doesn't affect it, only the lightning bit from Neutopia, and not enough for the screen to stop displaying or anything. The GBS thing sucks, but it's not needed for my Turbo or anything yet.

if the flash is effecting your TV as well (even if not bad) you could likely make a slight adjustment and solve it without much change to your pic at all

Yeah, I just don't have to mess with it right now. Maybe next week. Is there a pic somewhere to show what surface mount potentiometers adjust what that I can refer to when I have the time?

i thought they were marked, but turbokon should have something posted on it as well

I only recall them being marked R1-3 or something. Outside of that, I am not sure which one adjust what settings.

R3 is luma
R1 is G/B
R2 is G/R

Whee! Just got mine installed, and it's working great. Just wanted to post and say thanks to NightWolve, thesteve, turbokon, and everyone else in this thread.

I've got all the colors coming through loud and clear, though it seems very green, so I'm going to adjust it now.

Congrats and you're welcome! BTW, are you using a LCD HDTV that's supporting 240p via the YPbPr/Component jacks ? If so, post the make/model so others know which ones work. I've got a Samsung that works, but a Sanyo that rejects 240p via the YPbPr/Component jacks. I think it'd be useful to learn if there's a general pattern of supporting 240p with Samsung and other makers and also knowing which ones generally reject it, etc.

Thanks!

Yep! This is a Samsung LN40C550. About a 5 year old 40" LCD. It supports 240p. Looks pretty blurry, but it does a decent job. I also gave it a shot on a CRT, Sony BVM-1316. Great!