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I just in the past few days scored on a Sega cd model 2 that is in full working order .. I burned some iso's of games that I figured I try out first before hunting them down for a good price .. I found out Lords Of Thunder was released for it and myself being such a fan boy of that game had to download it and test it out .. Holly F that game is soo horrible compared to the original !! At first I thought hmm the audio is kinda decent in the opening scene, then I got into the game play and that also is totally F .. The character you play with moves soo slow and his movements are not smooth at all .. Their are few things that seemed kinda appealing while trying it out like some of the color in the levels details and the fact you now have a voice over when powering up your character but that's pretty much it .. So far the 3 games I tried out have horrible slowdown at times when the screen gets full of stuff happening all at once .. I'm gonna really try to give this Sega cd thing an honest chance .. Do any of you know of some games that are a must play for this funky console ??

Both of the Lunar games.
Flashback
Flink
Vay
Shining Force
Popful Mail
Snatcher

And speaking of Turbo games done on Sega CD, you should check out Dungeon Explorer.

That's all I can think of off hand.

Bari Arm/Android assault is the only shooter worth playing on mega/sega cd
Robo Aleste sucks

Quote from: guest on 02/05/2013, 01:10 PMBoth of the Lunar games.
Flashback
Flink
Vay
Shining Force
Popful Mail
Snatcher

And speaking of Turbo games done on Sega CD, you should check out Dungeon Explorer.

That's all I can think of off hand.

I'd add Sonic CD to that list if you're a fan of Sonic games.

Also, I definitely favor LoT on SCD compared to Sega CD, don't get me wrong, but... are you sure there isn't something wrong with your burn of the ISO?  I've played it (Not recently) and noticed a few differences, but nothing to the extent that you've mentioned.  The game is not as polished as it should be, and the colours are fugly, but for the most part the game is Lords of Thunder... just for the Sega CD.

Agree with all of those games but Popful Mail. maybe I don't get it, but its not really that great of a game to me. Very generic in game play. To bad to, cause the animated movies are very good.

Ecco
Keio Flying Squadron

Stay away from Sol-Feace, nowhere as good as Sol-Deace on the Genesis.

I was just going to say Sol-Feace is awesome...to each their own I guess, haha. That game is worth it for the redbook soundtrack alone.

-Final Fight CD is probably the best version of the game on a console, still tons of fun 2-player
-Robo Aleste is very enjoyable
-Soulstar and Silpheed are worth a play-through
-The Working Designs games are all worth playing - Vay is the weakest IMHO, the Lunar games are reason enough to own a Sega CD
-Snatcher is overpriced and overrated - in no way shape or form is it worth the pricetag, but it's worth a playthrough if you can borrow/burn a copy. You'll beat the game in like 40 minutes and wonder what the hype is about.

Lords of Thunder for Sega-CD is a great port and still very impressive and fun. But it was designed around the PCE hardware, just as Sonic CD on PCE would still look and play nice  but wouldn't be the same.

Cobra II/The Space Adventure is one of the best digicomics of the generation and has a great localization.

Flink is cool, although not too much different from the cart version.

Dark Wizard is good if you enjoy fantasy war sims.

Quote from: jeffhlewis on 02/05/2013, 03:27 PMI was just going to say Sol-Feace is awesome...to each their own I guess, haha. That game is worth it for the redbook soundtrack alone.

Ok maybe it's not awful I just prefer the Gen port more (for the music, sfx, ending) :-p I forgot about Silpheed that was a fun one!
*Here's an auction that ends soon for Sol Feace that might be available to steal for a dollar plus shipping:
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/sol-feace-/150988140334?pt=Video_Games_Games&hash=item2327982f2e

Terminator is a good platform game.

I think Lunar(s) and Final Fight are the best Sega-CD games.

Sonic CD is my favorite Sonic game. Be warned though, it plays differently than the other Sonics.

Quote from: guest on 02/05/2013, 06:10 PMSonic CD is my favorite Sonic game. Be warned though, it plays differently than the other Sonics.

You bet it plays a bit different. I remember playing it a my friends house with the Sega CD hooked up to his stereo system. That was quite an experience.

Quote from: esadajr on 02/05/2013, 05:29 PMTerminator is a good platform game.

I was wondering how long it would take to mention this one.
that said, terminator and sonic CD are really the only reasons to justify a sega CD.
lunar's fine and all, but you might as well go for the PSX versions.

Sonic 1 is my favorite Sonic :)

Black Hole Assault!!  Kidding, you can just play the Turbo version, I don't recall much different, even then, it's nothing special IIRC.  The Sega CD is handy for Piel Solar if you have a version with the cd. If you like the Chuck Rock's, then both are probably the best versions to get, atleast for the music, Earnest Evans(if that's you're bad, I like the cd version best from what little I've played of it), Earthworm Jim(best console version possibly aside from the one on PSN).

I would recommend:

Terminator
Final Fight
Lethal Enforcers 1&2

Bari arms is a real good shewty. Has kinda the turbo style.

Android Assault (aka Bari-Arm) --- cool shooter with neat visuals and music
Dark Wizard --- F YEAH DARK WIZARD
Final Fight CD --- if you have any love for Final Fight, love this version with a great T's Music soundtrack
Lunar and Lunar 2 --- waaaaaay better than the PSX versions, seriously, F those screwed-up ports
AH-3 Thunderstrike --- super-fun helicopter shooting
Terminator --- worth it for the music alone.  Tommy Tallarico is a genius, and this disc is proof
Road Avenger --- a Dragon's Lair style game with extra added awesome
Time Gal --- see above re: Road Avenger, although maybe just a wee bit less awesome
Shining Force CD --- if you enjoy straight-up SRPG battles, this is cool.  No towns
Silpheed --- what a ride!  Back when it came out, people passed it off as "gimmicky" in comparison to Star Fox, but now it rules

Id recommend keio flying squadron it's a good cute'em up.Still be warn,the u.s version is highly expensive but the jp version is cheaper.

 Winds of Thunder PCE [x---------------------I---------------------] Lords of Thunder MD
 Winds of Thunder PCE [---------x------------I---------------------] Lords of Thunder Turbo

The only Sega CD games I had were Final Fight and NBA Jam.

It's weird, I really want another Multimega, but honestly, cool though they are, I can never think of more than a handful of CD games I'd ever want to play.

Quote from: bartre on 02/05/2013, 08:48 PM

Quote from: esadajr on 02/05/2013, 05:29 PMTerminator is a good platform game.

I was wondering how long it would take to mention this one.
that said, terminator and sonic CD are really the only reasons to justify a sega CD.
lunar's fine and all, but you might as well go for the PSX versions.

Damn, yea I third the mention of Terminator by Virgin.  Very good soundtrack and solid run 'n gun.  I need to get me a copy again!

Quote from: Tatsujin on 02/06/2013, 05:20 AMWinds of Thunder PCE [x---------------------I---------------------] Lords of Thunder MD
 Winds of Thunder PCE [---------x------------I---------------------] Lords of Thunder Turbo

Lolers, tats.  Why is Winds of Thunder PCE rated so much over Lords of Thunder TG16?  I always thought they were identical, aside from text changes.  OBEY factor?

US lords is lacking the uberawesome and goosebumb bringing "thanksgiving" when leaving the shop :idea:

Quote from: bartre on 02/05/2013, 08:48 PM

Quote from: esadajr on 02/05/2013, 05:29 PMTerminator is a good platform game.

I was wondering how long it would take to mention this one.
that said, terminator and sonic CD are really the only reasons to justify a sega CD.
lunar's fine and all, but you might as well go for the PSX versions.

Agree with the previous poster that the PSX and Saturn remakes of both Lunars are garbage. Especially Silver Star Story where they couldn't resist screwing around with an already near-perfect plot in the original. It's a case where less is more graphically as well IMHO.

Quote from: guest on 02/05/2013, 01:10 PMFlink

3rd! Cart was not released in the US, so CD is your easy option. By far my most played and enjoyed Sega CD game I own.

Quote from: jeffhlewis on 02/05/2013, 03:27 PMI was just going to say Sol-Feace is awesome...to each their own I guess, haha. That game is worth it for the redbook soundtrack alone.

For $3-5, 'Feace is a solid game. I have not messed with the cart Deace release much, but Jeff is right on point about the musics. Android Assault reminds me of Thunder/Lightening Force, A GOOD THING! Robo Aleste is a not-as-good Musha or Spriggian, but still good and has tops music.

I'll go with everyone else on Final Fight, good pick up there if you find it. FF is the daddy of the beat'em up genre. You get Guy, two player and CD audio in the Sega CD release.

Snatcher _is_ overpriced, but I think everyone who owns a Sega CD needs to go through it at least once. It took me about 6 years after snagging a copy before I completed it. Wait for a snow day and knock it out in one or two days.

I'm not big on RPGs so I got nothing to say about Lunar, Popful or Vay.

Lunar 1 and 2 are fantastic and are well worth owning the system for alone.

The English versions of Snatcher and Popful Mail are fantastic as well. I like Sonic CD, I like AH3 Thunderstrike, Keio's Flying Squadron is a great little cute em  up. As mentioned by others Android Assualt is fantastic. If you like strategy games Shining Force CD and Dark Wizard aren't bad.

The Sega CD has a lot of games that I think Turbo fans might like. Popful Mail is very similar to the Exile's or Ys 3. The Lunar's are similar enough to Cosmic Fantasy 2 or Dragon Slayer (in fact far better). There's a Dungeon Explorer game on the system. It's a good alternate platform for Turbo fans, while the Sega CD library isn't as shoot-em-up heavy (I'd say Android Assault, Keio's, Sol Feace and Lords of Thunder are all worth owning though) but there's a lot of stuff PC engine fans would appreciate.

Poppuru! Poppuru! Poppuru!

Popful Mail is like my favorite game on the Sega CD, but I can only echo a lot of what Dan says as well about the Working Designs games.

A couple good additional standouts that haven't been mentioned are:
Soul Star
Novastorm
Rise of the Dragon
Revenge of the Ninja
The Ecco Games (which sound great)

Also Revengers of Vengeance has a bitchin' name but is kind of meh in my opinion, the opening animation is pretty sweet though. 

Quote from: Tatsujin on 02/06/2013, 10:19 AMUS lords is lacking the uberawesome and goosebumb bringing "thanksgiving" when leaving the shop :idea:

Sega CD version has the thanksgiving. The US TurboDuo was not powerful enough to have the shop voices. Couldn't be done. Only the Sega CD had enough hardware power and programming talent to do this in the US. The US is the most important country in the entire world (disagree and we will "liberate" you) so therefore the Sega CD version must be the best, Let us give thanks for the thanksgiving!  :)

That's because Sega CD was a silicon cheetah, and PCE was not.

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 02/06/2013, 07:30 PM

Quote from: Tatsujin on 02/06/2013, 10:19 AMUS lords is lacking the uberawesome and goosebumb bringing "thanksgiving" when leaving the shop :idea:

Sega CD version has the thanksgiving. The US TurboDuo was not powerful enough to have the shop voices. Couldn't be done. Only the Sega CD had enough hardware power and programming talent to do this in the US. The US is the most important country in the entire world (disagree and we will "liberate" you) so therefore the Sega CD version must be the best, Let us give thanks for the thanksgiving!  :)

OK, I wasn't aware of that fact, therefore I corrected the chart as of below:

Winds of Thunder PCE [¨x¨------------------|---------------------] Lords of Thunder MD

 :)

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 02/06/2013, 07:30 PM

Quote from: Tatsujin on 02/06/2013, 10:19 AMUS lords is lacking the uberawesome and goosebumb bringing "thanksgiving" when leaving the shop :idea:

Sega CD version has the thanksgiving. The US TurboDuo was not powerful enough to have the shop voices. Couldn't be done. Only the Sega CD had enough hardware power and programming talent to do this in the US. The US is the most important country in the entire world (disagree and we will "liberate" you) so therefore the Sega CD version must be the best, Let us give thanks for the thanksgiving!  :)

STATUS: Truth.

So I managed to get my hands on some of the Iso's you guys suggested for me to try out before buying the originals and adding them to my collection .. Fatal Fury Special, Final Fight, Keio Flying Squadron, NBA Jam, Popful Mail, Snatcher, Sonic Cd, The Terminator and both Lunar games .. So far I really like Popful Mail and Keio Flying Squadron the best by far, the rest of the games are pretty damn good, except for Snatcher .. That game is definitely what I'm not into .. I also have not had a chance to try out both of the Lunar games .. I'm for sure not hating as much on the Sega Cd like I was a few days ago .. I already took it apart and cleaned up the old lithium grease from the laser assembly and added some fresh new grease to it .. I also added green led's to both the Genesis and the cd attachment, Av modded it and now I'm looking to region mod it and add svideo to it .. Are their any other games I should try out that I'm missing so far ?? Thanks guys for all the great game suggestions ..

The Mega CD version of Ninja Warriors is much better than the PCE one.

Quote from: Nec.Game.head on 02/07/2013, 12:39 PMSo I managed to get my hands on some of the Iso's you guys suggested for me to try out before buying the originals and adding them to my collection .. Fatal Fury Special

Fatal Fury Special and Samurai Showdown were a sloppy mess on Sega Cd. They had bugs and just over all were not good products, though were playable at least. If you are craving fighters on the system I'd stick to Mortal Kombat and Eternal Champions.

What the fucks wrong with Sol Feace?


My suggestions (some were mentioned):

Ecco the Dolphin
Eye of the Beholder
Dungeon Master
Heimdall
Shadow of the Beast 2
Rise of the Dragon
Anything with a Working Designs logo on it
Shining Force CD (Holybitch this ones good)
Dark Wizard, because fuck yeah dark wizard (as E.R. said)
Flashback
Terminator 2 or whatever
Eternal Champions.  Fuckkkk yeah this game rules.  Xavier is awesome.

Pretty much ANY Sega CD game that isn't full of dumbass FMV games is actually surprisingly fun.  So, as long as you don't see like, 16 color Corey Haim on the back of the game, give it a shot.


Rise of the Dragon is a really awesome game, but it takes some time to get into it.

Quote from: Nec.Game.head on 02/07/2013, 12:39 PMSo far I really like Popful Mail and Keio Flying Squadron the best by far, the rest of the games are pretty damn good,

ANOTHER CONVERT IS BORN!   :twisted:

Quote from: Nec.Game.head on 02/07/2013, 12:39 PMI also added green led's to both the Genesis and the cd attachment, Av modded it and now I'm looking to region mod it and add svideo to it .. Are their any other games I should try out that I'm missing so far ?? Thanks guys for all the great game suggestions ..

Most of the AV mods on the Genesis to do aren't that bad, S-Vid works well, but if you've got something that handles RGB the system does output that right from the back if you've got the appropriate cable.  Region modding the Genny is also pretty straightforward, but modding the SegaCD is a whole other game.

If you wanna play JP games on the Sega CD I recommend one of two things
1) Download the ISOs and change the regions on them to US before burning them to bypass the region check.
or
2) Get a flashcart and you can load different region BIOS files on it so that you can boot the SegaCD into other regions that way.

There is a third way which involves getting a custom BIOS file written to an EEPROM and then installing it into the system, but it's not as trivial as the other mods.

Quote from: guest on 02/07/2013, 06:12 PMMy suggestions (some were mentioned):

Ecco the Dolphin
Eye of the Beholder
Dungeon Master
Heimdall
Shadow of the Beast 2
Rise of the Dragon
Vay
Lunar Silver Star
Lunar Eternal Blue
Shining Force CD
Dark Wizard
Flashback
The Terminator Cd version
Eternal Champions.  Fuckkkk yeah this game rules.  Xavier is awesome.

Add to that list the following:
Dungeon Explorer
Robo Aleste
Sol Feace
Sonic Cd
Android Assault
Keio Flying Squadron
Mortal Kombat
Time Gal
Road Avenger
Silpheed
JAGUAR XJ220
Road Rash
both Batman games

And for a few cheap lulz, Wirehead.

Batman Returns isn't the greatest game overall but the driving sequences are pretty sweet - really shows what can be done with the hardware scaling/rotation. Keep in mind it was like a 1991 or 1992 release - mind blowing at the time. Core later did similar things with Soulstar and AH3 Thunderstrike.

Thanks for bringing up Soulstar. That was another I was trying to think of but forgot the name of it.

Just watched a Terminator video on youtube, never knew that game existed.  Looks pretty damn good, will have to pick it up!

With that said, I used to play the hell out of Terminator on the Genesis.  I don't know why, but I loved that game.

No way, Jose.

Lords of Thunder Turbo is much better than Winds of Thunder because of the lack of dubbing (as good as it is in the Sega version). Having the raw cinema music is priceless and much more valuable than a few shop voice samples. Anyone who doesn't own any version yet should stick to the Turbo version.

Silpheed is another definite requirement.

My friends mind (and load) was blown when he watched me play that recently.   He'd never seen it before.

I also like the Cadillacs and Dinosaurs game.

It's dopey, but I like it.

REQUEST: I want a high-quality RIP of the SEGA Lords of Thunder soundtrack! This thread reminded me that I've never compared the two soundtracks (but I've read about the differences? for years now...)

Of course, a tagged, high-bitrate .mp3 would go here: https://archives.tg-16.com/music_database.htm?col=en&val=lord

Thank you in advance.

I haven't long picked up a megacd and played lords of thunder its still a good game, the music is remixed and seems a lot cleaner that the original i like it a lot but i also like the more rugged sounding pce cd music some of my Favorited music on the machine. i even made a hacked disk with the remixed music from the megacd game on the pce cd game i still like playing that lol.

Graphics wise the pce cd is much nicer looking better colors and detail some level section seem a bit diffrent they may have moved a few spites around or it could just be me.

Megacd game is much easier finished it on my first go pretty easy.

On the pce the earth amour is the best realy powerfull on the mega cd doeset seem as good, the wind amour on the pce looks good but its not to powerfull but on the megacd it kicks arse so they must have done a bit tweaking with the game.

At the end of the day it looks good and it you aint got a pce cd its the game to get for the megacd but if you have the option of both pce cd all the way

recomend megacd games
sonic cd
final fight
sol feace
Keio Flying Squadron bit hit of miss to be honest
Android Assault
Robo aleste
Silpheed
thunderhawk

Quote from: fraggore on 03/13/2013, 05:04 PMrecomend megacd games
sonic cd  :D
final fight  :D
sol feace   :|
Keio Flying Squadron bit hit of miss to be honest  [-X
Android Assault  :D
Robo aleste  :-k
Silpheed  :|
thunderhawk  [-(

lol

The machine hasn't realy got a top list of games i am trying lol.

Quote from: esteban on 03/10/2013, 01:24 AMREQUEST: I want a high-quality RIP of the SEGA Lords of Thunder soundtrack! This thread reminded me that I've never compared the two soundtracks (but I've read about the differences? for years now...)

Of course, a tagged, high-bitrate .mp3 would go here: https://archives.tg-16.com/music_database.htm?col=en&val=lord

Thank you in advance.

Is there a specific way you want this game ripped?  I've got the Sega CD version and can probably just make WAV files of the tracks on the disc if you want, I don't do a lot of CD ripping so let me know.

Quote from: guest on 03/14/2013, 03:56 PM

Quote from: esteban on 03/10/2013, 01:24 AMREQUEST: I want a high-quality RIP of the SEGA Lords of Thunder soundtrack! This thread reminded me that I've never compared the two soundtracks (but I've read about the differences? for years now...)

Of course, a tagged, high-bitrate .mp3 would go here: https://archives.tg-16.com/music_database.htm?col=en&val=lord

Thank you in advance.

Is there a specific way you want this game ripped?  I've got the Sega CD version and can probably just make WAV files of the tracks on the disc if you want, I don't do a lot of CD ripping so let me know.

I'd be happy with 256+ kbps .mp3 if you can do it.

https://archives.tg-16.com/music_database.htm#help

You can also do .wav and I'll store them for future-proofing... :pcgs:

wav'it

Will try to get to it this weekend then :)

Quote from: guest on 03/15/2013, 05:18 PMWill try to get to it this weekend then :)

AWESOME. :pcgs:

Quote from: Tatsujin on 03/15/2013, 01:00 AMwav'it

(https://web.archive.org/web/20240324103915im_/https://vanillaroses.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/waving_cat.gif)

So I used CDRWIN to rips these as WAV files direct from my copy of the game.  There's not a single scratch on the disc so these should be error free as well.

I put them in my Dropbox for now, but since the files are massive I will probably take them down in about a week.  I put the whole thing in a ZIP and it's like 600MB.  :shock:

I thought the whole album was pretty sweet as I was listening through it, there are some cool tracks that do neat stereo effects too.

Enjoy!

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2860484/SegaCD-Rips.zip (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2860484/SegaCD-Rips.zip) (589MB)

Wow. You know, I actually heard/played the SegaCD version first a long time ago, but comparing them now, I'm honestly surprised at how much better the Turbo version is.

And speaking of the Turbo version, maybe my favorite part of the whole soundtrack actually gets cut off by the shortness of the stage where it plays - Llamarada, the fire realm.
http://youtu.be/76zevuMEbkg&list=PL8FB3519874861B25&t=151s

The link skips ahead. About 30 seconds further on is where the stage ends, but moments later is also where an awesome solo begins.

Quote from: SamIAm on 03/16/2013, 06:58 PMWow. You know, I actually heard/played the SegaCD version first a long time ago, but comparing them now, I'm honestly surprised at how much better the Turbo version is.

And speaking of the Turbo version, maybe my favorite part of the whole soundtrack actually gets cut off by the shortness of the stage where it plays - Llamarada, the fire realm.
http://youtu.be/76zevuMEbkg&t=151

The link skips ahead. About 30 seconds further on is where the stage ends, but moments later is also where an awesome solo begins.

Ha! This same thing would happen in other games, too (for example, with Monster Lair CD, the second loop through a song would have fun stuff...).

Crazy.

Quote from: guest on 03/16/2013, 05:27 PMEnjoy!

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2860484/SegaCD-Rips.zip (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2860484/SegaCD-Rips.zip) (589MB)

GOT IT! Thanks. Now I have to listen to this bad boy. :pcgs:

hahaha... thx xele. will compare that shit now too :)

@sam: yeah that solo is awesome :)

I need to learn how to burn Sega CD's.  I need to try some rarer games.

The Sega CD is quite powerful however it fell into the trap (Night Trap) of the FMV craze early on.  That said many gems.  Check out Mickey Mania.  Great game on the CD.

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/17/2013, 12:36 AMI need to learn how to burn Sega CD's.  I need to try some rarer games.

The Sega CD is quite powerful however it fell into the trap (Night Trap) of the FMV craze early on.  That said many gems.  Check out Mickey Mania.  Great game on the CD.

About the only rare one is snatcher  :shock:  :P

Yeah, the Sega CD was really damned powerful. I don't blame the FMV stuff for it not ending up that great in the end though. If it didn't have the FMV stuff it simply would have had that many fewer games. Quality Japanese developers were in short supply because almost nobody bought the Megadrive in Japan. They certainly weren't going to buy a 40,000 yen add-on for it.

I also think the crappy colors in the base Megadrive really held it back too. When people see SFC (or even PCE) compared to the muddy crap on the MD they are turned off, and there was no way a CD add-on was going to fix this.

I mean, realistically, there is no real reason LoT should be better on the lowly PCE than it is on the MD. The PCE is a much slower machine and the CDROM2 doesn't add anywhere near as much power to the PCE as the MCD does to the MD...but you do kind of need color. :(

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/17/2013, 01:32 AMThe PCE is a much slower machine

when did that happen?

I'm speaking purely from a mathematical perspective. A full Mega CD setup has a lot more horsepower than a PC Engine with Super CDROM2 equipment.

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/17/2013, 01:32 AMYeah, the Sega CD was really damned powerful. I don't blame the FMV stuff for it not ending up that great in the end though. If it didn't have the FMV stuff it simply would have had that many fewer games. Quality Japanese developers were in short supply because almost nobody bought the Megadrive in Japan. They certainly weren't going to buy a 40,000 yen add-on for it.

I also think the crappy colors in the base Megadrive really held it back too. When people see SFC (or even PCE) compared to the muddy crap on the MD they are turned off, and there was no way a CD add-on was going to fix this.

I mean, realistically, there is no real reason LoT should be better on the lowly PCE than it is on the MD. The PCE is a much slower machine and the CDROM2 doesn't add anywhere near as much power to the PCE as the MCD does to the MD...but you do kind of need color. :(

A lot of games had poor color choices however the MD could indeed put out great color, at least three times the 64 color limit just by using the shade and highlight trick.  Hell Toy story had over 200 colors on screen at some point. 

The CD add on IMHO should have been a 32X CD unit at least.  IDK why it didn't.

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/17/2013, 02:01 AMI'm speaking purely from a mathematical perspective. A full Mega CD setup has a lot more horsepower than a PC Engine with Super CDROM2 equipment.

Ah ok, you comparing it to the MCD, then I can agree with you. I've thought you mean the plain MD/Genesis set up.

Quote from: Tatsujin on 03/17/2013, 02:12 AM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/17/2013, 02:01 AMI'm speaking purely from a mathematical perspective. A full Mega CD setup has a lot more horsepower than a PC Engine with Super CDROM2 equipment.

Ah ok, you comparing it to the MCD, then I can agree with you. I've thought you mean the plain MD/Genesis set up.

The Mega-drive itself is quite powerful machine.  It's based off arcade hardware.  With tricks it could make a lot more colors than 64 on display.  That said it cannot display colors like the PCE.  The Mega Drive has a LOT of power in terms of animation.  It does things very smooth and with control to match.  The Mega CD has the same processor just clocked faster and obviously the "Mode 7" effect but the standard MD could and can still do a lot.

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/17/2013, 02:05 AM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/17/2013, 01:32 AMYeah, the Sega CD was really damned powerful. I don't blame the FMV stuff for it not ending up that great in the end though. If it didn't have the FMV stuff it simply would have had that many fewer games. Quality Japanese developers were in short supply because almost nobody bought the Megadrive in Japan. They certainly weren't going to buy a 40,000 yen add-on for it.

I also think the crappy colors in the base Megadrive really held it back too. When people see SFC (or even PCE) compared to the muddy crap on the MD they are turned off, and there was no way a CD add-on was going to fix this.

I mean, realistically, there is no real reason LoT should be better on the lowly PCE than it is on the MD. The PCE is a much slower machine and the CDROM2 doesn't add anywhere near as much power to the PCE as the MCD does to the MD...but you do kind of need color. :(

A lot of games had poor color choices however the MD could indeed put out great color, at least three times the 64 color limit just by using the shade and highlight trick.  Hell Toy story had over 200 colors on screen at some point.  

The CD add on IMHO should have been a 32X CD unit at least.  IDK why it didn't.

Because it would have pushed the price of a complete system to 3DO levels? Because the Hitachi SH-2 didn't even exist yet? Because it would have been monsterously difficult to program for? Because the 32X was pretty much a US project begun after the MegaCD? Because the 32X fucking sucked?

Maybe one of those reasons. Maybe all if those and more.

Btw, this forum has been over the "such and such system was ACTUALLY CAPABLE of such and such tricks" a million times before and honestly it's dumb. If all the games on a system are brown then it's a brown system. I'm sorry it's brown. I'm not glad it's brown. But it's brown. Maybe the system can only do brown stuff for technical reasons, or maybe everyone that made games for it sucked. As it is, the MD basically makes for muddy graphics. Games that actually have decent color are usually stuff like Sonic or Phantasy Star IV where they use almost exclusively bright pallets. If you want something subtle but nice, like Lords of Thunder for example, it seems to not be able to do it for whatever reason. 

So, while I'm sure Toy Story is awesome and all, overall anyone playing Genesis games is playing brown dull looking games.

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/17/2013, 06:49 AMIf all the games on a system are brown then it's a brown system. I'm sorry it's brown. I'm not glad it's brown. But it's brown. Maybe the system can only do brown stuff for technical reasons, or maybe everyone that made games for it sucked. As it is, the MD basically makes for muddy graphics. 

GENESIS DOES BROWN.

WHAT CAN BROWN DO FOR YOU?

Update:

(https://junk.tg-16.com/images/genesis_does_brown.jpg)

NOTE: I was very nice when I chose the screenshot. I tried to choose the BEST POSSIBLE BROWN EXPERIENCE a Genesis owner could have. THE OTHER GAMES ARE NOT AS FANTASTIQUE LE BROWN.

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/17/2013, 06:49 AM

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/17/2013, 02:05 AM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/17/2013, 01:32 AMYeah, the Sega CD was really damned powerful. I don't blame the FMV stuff for it not ending up that great in the end though. If it didn't have the FMV stuff it simply would have had that many fewer games. Quality Japanese developers were in short supply because almost nobody bought the Megadrive in Japan. They certainly weren't going to buy a 40,000 yen add-on for it.

I also think the crappy colors in the base Megadrive really held it back too. When people see SFC (or even PCE) compared to the muddy crap on the MD they are turned off, and there was no way a CD add-on was going to fix this.

I mean, realistically, there is no real reason LoT should be better on the lowly PCE than it is on the MD. The PCE is a much slower machine and the CDROM2 doesn't add anywhere near as much power to the PCE as the MCD does to the MD...but you do kind of need color. :(

A lot of games had poor color choices however the MD could indeed put out great color, at least three times the 64 color limit just by using the shade and highlight trick.  Hell Toy story had over 200 colors on screen at some point.  

The CD add on IMHO should have been a 32X CD unit at least.  IDK why it didn't.

Because it would have pushed the price of a complete system to 3DO levels? Because the Hitachi SH-2 didn't even exist yet? Because it would have been monsterously difficult to program for? Because the 32X was pretty much a US project begun after the MegaCD? Because the 32X fucking sucked?

Maybe one of those reasons. Maybe all if those and more.

Btw, this forum has been over the "such and such system was ACTUALLY CAPABLE of such and such tricks" a million times before and honestly it's dumb. If all the games on a system are brown then it's a brown system. I'm sorry it's brown. I'm not glad it's brown. But it's brown. Maybe the system can only do brown stuff for technical reasons, or maybe everyone that made games for it sucked. As it is, the MD basically makes for muddy graphics. Games that actually have decent color are usually stuff like Sonic or Phantasy Star IV where they use almost exclusively bright pallets. If you want something subtle but nice, like Lords of Thunder for example, it seems to not be able to do it for whatever reason. 

So, while I'm sure Toy Story is awesome and all, overall anyone playing Genesis games is playing brown dull looking games.

I think the Sega CD, albeit powerful, should have been a full step forward.  That means a true upgrade.  More color for sure.  I don't think the 32X itself sucked, I think everything else supporting and implementing it sucked.  That said it wasn't needed.  Delay the Sega CD a year, make it display a fuck ton of colors, that is all they would need to carry them into 1997-1998.  The issue is of course as we know it  U.S. Marketing.  How can you expect a system to carry 4 mediums?  (Sega Genesis, CD, 32x, 32X CD).  I followed along and loved it until I got my Saturn but most people hated the idea of it and I certainly don't blame them.  I still play my 32X as we speak today.

Saying all the games are brown is ignorant, it's like me saying all the PCE games are colorful 8 bit games with no parallax, we all know this to be false and one look at a game like Dynamite Headdy would flip you in a second.  The main titles on the Genesis were very colorful indeed.

Each system has it's strength and weaknesses.  Sega was increadably short sited when making the Mega Drive, it wouldn't have cost that much more to add the extra color, I mean the system was already set up  for it but it wasn't as they didn't see a reason back in 1988, an error indeed.  What they did do was give it a proper 16Bit engine which handles a lot on screen with minimal slowdown.  That is what I like along with clever programing bringing the system into games it was never designed for.

^^^ have you looked at fighting street yet?  I'm just sayin... ^^^

Guys cmon, be nice lol

Pc engine 4 lyfe. But yeah sega cd is cool too. Lets just all agree that leap frog sucks big ones.

There are few things Sega could have done to not get stomped by the Playstation. I believe that betting on a beefed up Sega CD, released later on as a pseudo-next-gen system, was probably not one of them.

My 2cent Sega history rewrite: Let the Sega CD be the goofy little experiment that it was, but ditch the 32X. Have faith in riding the 16-bit market through 1995. Release the Saturn/whatever a little later with 3D hardware superior to the Playstation's, and still with a CD drive unlike the N64. Maybe a stripped down Model-2 arcade board with a CD drive stuck on the side. Don't fuck up the launch, and have a goddamn 3D Sonic game early on.

The 32X only existed because the US and JP divisions were at war with each other. The poor saps that bought one were the casualties of this war. It was a fucking terrible idea.

What I read about the 32X is that in its earliest conceptual stages, it was a much more minor upgrade. It's probably no coincidence that the idea came up shortly after Star Fox came out, and even some of their later advertisements emphasized that it was a better deal than enhanced SNES games with co-processors in the carts. So the idea at first was probably that gamers would buy an "enhancement" once and leave it on their system.

That may not have been too successful either, but regardless, they supposedly wound up reworking the system over and over until it became something so powerful that it had to be marketed as next-gen. The fact that Sega of Japan and Sega of America didn't have a coordinated reevaluation of the whole idea at that point and figure out what a bad idea it was is a good example of how dysfunctional things were at that time.

The 32X was apparently conceived by the Japanese CEO but given to SoA to design, BTW.

Quote from: SamIAm on 03/17/2013, 02:51 PMThere are few things Sega could have done to not get stomped by the Playstation. I believe that betting on a beefed up Sega CD, released later on as a pseudo-next-gen system, was probably not one of them.

My 2cent Sega history rewrite: Let the Sega CD be the goofy little experiment that it was, but ditch the 32X. Have faith in riding the 16-bit market through 1995. Release the Saturn/whatever a little later with 3D hardware superior to the Playstation's, and still with a CD drive unlike the N64. Maybe a stripped down Model-2 arcade board with a CD drive stuck on the side. Don't fuck up the launch, and have a goddamn 3D Sonic game early on.

The Saturn was a massively powerful 3D machine.  Trouble was it was a nightmare to program for having twin 32 bit architecture and used Quadrilaterals.  I mean the launch VF game had one processor to control each character, needlessly complicated.  Many developers just used one 32 bit chip which by itself was a good step down from a PS1 setup that displayed triangles (Lots of screen tearing which most people just ignore).  The PS1 was a joy to program for and it obviously took the lead.

Yeah, I don't give a shit about any of that.

All I know is that there are two 32-bit Sega machines. One is extremely well built, very durable, and has many many really fucking good games on it, and the other one is the 32X.

EDIT: btw, I'm not sure why, but primeterrydm2.gif is totally hammering my CPU on both my computer and my phone. Is anyone else experiencing this?

Quote from: galam on 03/17/2013, 02:02 PM^^^ have you looked at fighting street yet?  I'm just sayin... ^^^

Apparently not yet.

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/17/2013, 06:52 PMEDIT: btw, I'm not sure why, but primeterrydm2.gif is totally hammering my CPU on both my computer and my phone. Is anyone else experiencing this?

Yeah, it's pretty obnoxious.  My computers take a noticeable hit when that sig shows up.

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/17/2013, 06:52 PM...One is extremely well built, very durable, and has many many really fucking good games on it...

:lol:  Good one.

I don't get the fighting street reference however I know it's a launch cd title here in the states and not particularly good game.

I think that was aimed at me, insinuating Fighting Street is as brown as any Genesis game.

I think that's what they meant.

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/17/2013, 12:36 AMI need to learn how to burn Sega CD's.  I need to try some rarer games.

You also need to learn how to use signatures in forums.  You need to try some (much) smaller ones.

(hope that hit home for once)

Its not just the size, its something to do with the way its animated.

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/18/2013, 04:09 AMIts not just the size, its something to do with the way its animated.

THAT, of course too :idea:

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/17/2013, 11:14 PMI don't get the fighting street reference however I know it's a launch cd title here in the states and not particularly good game. 

Fighting street is another section of this forum that you need to look at.
Start here:  https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=14352.15 (https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=14352.15)

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/18/2013, 02:25 AMI think that was aimed at me, insinuating Fighting Street is as brown as any Genesis game.

I think that's what they meant.

Nope.  The Saturn comment just made me chuckle because it sounded like you said it had a ton of good games. That's all.

Quote from: galam on 03/18/2013, 07:38 AMThe Saturn comment just made me chuckle because it sounded like you said it had a ton of good games. That's all.

Well, it does :)

Quote from: Ji-L87 on 03/18/2013, 09:12 AMWell, it does :)

Agreed.

Who the fuck is Galem?

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/18/2013, 12:50 PMWho the fuck is Galem?

He's the douche that sullied poor Laura, right?

Quote from: guest on 03/18/2013, 01:41 PMHe's the douche that sullied poor Laura, right?

I believe that was Galam.

Quote from: DragonmasterDan on 03/18/2013, 01:43 PM

Quote from: guest on 03/18/2013, 01:41 PMHe's the douche that sullied poor Laura, right?

I believe that was Galam.

You're both right!

Thanks for all the info dudes. I tried out most of the games that you guys suggested. And I did in fact enjoy most of them. But unfortunately for my Sega Cd setup I quickly became bored with her overall and shelved her ass away for now. Not a bad purchase complete for 45 dollars though. BACK TO OBEYING !!!

Did anyone get a chance to do a comparison of the soundtracks yet?

Quote from: guest on 03/19/2013, 01:43 PMDid anyone get a chance to do a comparison of the soundtracks yet?

From all the reviews I have read the PCE music is better.  I have seen on Youtube that both games look great, PCE betetr colors for sure.

i am going to be bit contentious here pce strider vs megadrive strider.

the pce game sucks in graphics colors and frame rate megadrive wins that hands down.

its surprising tho after collecting megadrive and pc engine again how much better most of the time pc engine games are take like say hellfire, tatsuijin, tiger heli, raiden they all more colorfull and look better on the pce. the megacd is good and the with likes of final fight showed that i could do top class arcade conversion shame its full of fmv and low par games, and way is Dungeon Explorer so bad how gutting is that i love the pce games.

Quote from: fraggore on 03/21/2013, 02:08 PMi am going to be bit contentious here pce strider vs megadrive strider.

the pce game sucks in graphics colors and frame rate megadrive wins that hands down.

its surprising tho after collecting megadrive and pc engine again how much better most of the time pc engine games are take like say hellfire, tatsuijin, tiger heli, raiden they all more colorfull and look better on the pce. The
megacd is good and the with likes of final fight showed that i could do top class arcade conversion shame its full of fmv and low par games, and way is Dungeon Explorer so bad how gutting is that i love the pce games.

The Sega-CD isn't full of fmv games. I think that in the region with the highest percentage of fmv games, it's maybe as much as 18% of the library, and that still includes some quality games. Around 9% of the Turbo CD library makes heavy use of fmv. The Sega and Mega-CD libraries are both full of great games and the Sega-CD library holds up well against the Turbo-CD library. Too many people judge/dismiss the Sega CD library based solely on hearsay. There's literally too many good games to try to list.

Strider ACD is broken and unfinished. You might as well compare PCE Golden Axe. But PCE Strider still has nice color in many places and more detail (plus CD music and cinemas).

There are certain things the PCE does well and certain things the MD does well.  Shooters the PCE just wins from what I can see.  Even with parallax the system gets it done to an extent.  Games like Vectorman or Earthworm Jim or Aladdin I don't see happening as well on the PCE.  Every system has it's strength and weaknesses and I love that, not like today they are all the same.

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/21/2013, 03:27 PMGames like Vectorman or Earthworm Jim or Aladdin I don't see happening as well on the PCE.

Why's that?  Those games are very well animated with lots of frames, but there are PCE games that can equal 'em (e.g. - Dracula X and Sapphire).

The megacd does have some good games that's way i have one, but the pce cd library is far superior.

true golden axe on the pce sucks still fun to play but the mega drive one is a fair bit better same goes for altered beast, both consoles got there good and bad games i love them both.

strider was disappointing gutted really as i love strider, true music and cinemas are a nice extra but was expecting more of the arcade port shame, on the other hand there is some some impressive neogeo arcade ports on arcade card.

Quote from: guest on 03/21/2013, 04:15 PM

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/21/2013, 03:27 PMGames like Vectorman or Earthworm Jim or Aladdin I don't see happening as well on the PCE.

Why's that?  Those games are very well animated with lots of frames, but there are PCE games that can equal 'em (e.g. - Dracula X and Sapphire).

I think this is more of a matter of those sorts of games, the high end AAA American developed platformers, coming about after nearly all development of platformers on PCE came to an end. Most PCE platformers are pretty low end, designed to compete with the Famicom-era.

Comparing the animation in Dracula X to Earthworm jim is pretty ridiculous. Richtor is small and walks like he has a broom handle shoved up his ass. I do see your point, there is plenty of power in the SCD system to make an Aladdin or EJ, but Drac X isn't a good comparison. The hold back wasn't technical, it just that the people making those sorts of games were either in the US or they were working on Super Famicom so the PCE got left out of the great graphical leap forward with EJ, Aladdin, that kind of thing.

I've about fucking had it with that Buster Wolf, btw.

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/17/2013, 01:32 AMI mean, realistically, there is no real reason LoT should be better on the lowly PCE than it is on the MD. The PCE is a much slower machine and the CDROM2 doesn't add anywhere near as much power to the PCE as the MCD does to the MD...but you do kind of need color. :(

There's much more regular tech talk on sega-16, where experts break down the abilities/performance of consoles down the base mechanics of what happens for each frame. The consensus is that the PC Engine is fastest at animating or updating, followed by the Genesis and then trailed by the SNES, which apparently has such slow cpu speeds because of other bottlenecks like slow memory. The Sega-CD does have a fast cpu speed, but how the new hardware and Genesis interact is convoluted, with different was to do different things and again, some crucial bottlenecks keeping it from being insanely powerful all-round.

Lords of Thunder was tailor-made for the PCE hardware. You can't just replace every section of animated tiles with a scrolling tile layer, it doesn't all fit together that way. Many Sega fans try to criticize Lords of Thunder as being a poor port, but even though it lost a tiny bit of artwork, the developer actually did make use of the additional tile layer(s) and added new parallax. It turned out infinitely better than Final Fight did for color, yet that port is celebrated.

I've heard it proposed that maybe too much collision can be hard for the Genesis and is the reason for noticeable slowdown in games like Thunder Force IV (which Genesis fans don't tend to be as critical of). Something like Air Zonk only calculates bullets and enemies and the background doesn't come into play. Star Parodia juggles screens full of animated bubbles, comprised of multiple sprites, which ricochet off of each other and the walls of the background, while still interacting with the player sprite and bullets. If you let the bubbles build up, you'll eventually see slowdown. The bubble section in LoT seems to do pretty much the same thing and the Sega-CD version spits out more crystals, creating a hell of a lot of collision to calculate (23:30 onward (https://youtu.be/9O3ahGeEWF0)). So it's not surprising that the game slows down there. The Sega-CD cpu is only 1.5 times the speed of the Genesis cpu, which already slows down in TFIV in areas with background collision, especially when a lot of bullets are onscreen (8:10 onward (https://youtu.be/WXbwXJ5qJUs)).

Maybe my guess is completely off, but that is where the slowdown occurs. I'm no expert, but I do know that the most basic tech specs don't tell the whole story and games built from the ground up for Sega-CD like Keio and Bari-Arm also feature slowdown, and in situations that don't appear to be doing as much as Lords of Thunder. The Sega-CD's biggest strength is doing amazing 3D graphics, the kind that the PCE could never do. Is it so hard to believe that the PCE is capable of running 2D games that are difficult for competing consoles to handle as-is?

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/17/2013, 04:44 AMThe Mega-drive itself is quite powerful machine.  It's based off arcade hardware.  With tricks it could make a lot more colors than 64 on display.  That said it cannot display colors like the PCE.  The Mega Drive has a LOT of power in terms of animation.  It does things very smooth and with control to match.  The Mega CD has the same processor just clocked faster and obviously the "Mode 7" effect but the standard MD could and can still do a lot.

The Mega Drive isn't based off of arcade hardware any more than the Master System. Especially if you consider the Neo Geo to be strictly console hardware. They just use cpus that were extremely popular/common at the time.

The MD is very powerful for the time, but the PC Engine is even better in terms of animation.

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/17/2013, 11:14 PMI don't get the fighting street reference however I know it's a launch cd title here in the states and not particularly good game. 

Fighting Street is an un-moderated section of the forum for saying things that might be frowned upon elsewhere.

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/21/2013, 03:27 PMThere are certain things the PCE does well and certain things the MD does well.  Shooters the PCE just wins from what I can see.  Even with parallax the system gets it done to an extent.  Games like Vectorman or Earthworm Jim or Aladdin I don't see happening as well on the PCE.  Every system has it's strength and weaknesses and I love that, not like today they are all the same.

The PCE wouldn't do the multi-directional parallax the same way, as that is its biggest weakness. The animation in EWJ and Aladdin plays to its strengths though.

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/21/2013, 05:13 PMI think this is more of a matter of those sorts of games, the high end AAA American developed platformers, coming about after nearly all development of platformers on PCE came to an end. Most PCE platformers are pretty low end, designed to compete with the Famicom-era.

Comparing the animation in Dracula X to Earthworm jim is pretty ridiculous. Richtor is small and walks like he has a broom handle shoved up his ass. I do see your point, there is plenty of power in the SCD system to make an Aladdin or EJ, but Drac X isn't a good comparison. The hold back wasn't technical, it just that the people making those sorts of games were either in the US or they were working on Super Famicom so the PCE got left out of the great graphical leap forward with EJ, Aladdin, that kind of thing.

I guess that you somehow missed the massive PCE, SNES and Genesis, screen comparison thread. (https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=633;sa=showPosts;start=225) Dracula X has characters with comparable levels of animation to characters in EWJ and Aladdin and way more animation overall than either EWJ or Aladdin. Those games were original and chose to heavily animate the main character. Dracula X is designed around the Castlevania franchise. Richter walks like a Castlevania hero. The crazy detailed sprites with tons of animation in Dracula X is what compares more directly to the sprites with tons of animation in EWJ and Aladdin. Sapphire however, likely has individual bosses with as many pixels of and/or frames of animation as either of those two games do entirely.

(https://web.archive.org/web/20190511030655im_/http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/dx1.png)
(https://web.archive.org/web/20190511030652im_/http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/ewj1.png)
(https://web.archive.org/web/20190511030635im_/http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/aladdin.png)

A single attack animation from a single boss in Sapphire-

(https://web.archive.org/web/20190511030636im_/http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/sapf1.png)

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/21/2013, 05:13 PMComparing the animation in Dracula X to Earthworm jim is pretty ridiculous. Richtor is small and walks like he has a broom handle shoved up his ass.

I think he was more refering to this kind of animation stuff in drac x, which is by any means just crazy. even for todays standards.





Death Rondo
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/s1k-12.png)(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/s1uz-1-1.png)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/untitlededs.png)(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/untitlededslk.png)
                 Death SCIV                                                                    Death Bloodlines
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/cv4death.png)                  (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/death.png)         






Rondo
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/untitledfs.png)
Dracula xx                                                                                    Bloodlines
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/Castlevania-DraculaXU413kjn.png)       (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/elizabethbartleym.png)







Rondo
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1-8.png)
Dracula xx
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/untitledwwl.png)







Rondo
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1-21.png)
Bloodlines                                                         SCIV
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/frankensteinsmonstern.png) (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/SuperCastlevaniaIVU085.png)






Rondo
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1-9.png)
SCIV
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/puwexyl-1.png)






Rondo
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1-20.png)
SCIV
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/sirgrakul.png)







Rondo
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1-14.png)
Bloodlines
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/giantswordknight.png)







Rondo
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1-13.png)
SCIV                                                  Bloodlines
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/enemiesnjn.png)                       (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/bonescimitar.png)







Rondo                                     Dracxx     
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1-7.png)   (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/Castlevania-DraculaXU354.png)
SCIV                                         Bloodlines
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/frankensteinsmonsterlkmjh.png)  (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/merman-1.png)









Rondo                                      Dracxx, forgot to add the 2 bones.
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1-16.png)  (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/Castlevania-DraculaXU413-1.png)
SCIV
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/enemieslx-1.png)









Rondo                                                     Dracxx
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1-3.png)  (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/Castlevania-DraculaXU354l-1.png)









Rondo
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1-15.png)
Dracxx
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/Castlevania-DraculaXU343.png)










Rondo
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1-11.png)
SCIV
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/rowdain.png)



 :shock: Rondo                                            dracxx
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1-4.png)  (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/Castlevania-DraculaXU432.png)


SCIV                                              Bloodlines
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/zSuperCastlevaniaIVU030.png) (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/Castlevania-BloodlinesU_000-1.gif)
                                             
                              Rondo
                              (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1001.png)


second set, swing/swing while walking up stairs/swing while walking down stairs/swing while ducking/ jumping.

Bloodlines                                                    SCIV
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/Castlevania-BloodlinesU_010.gif) (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/zSuperCastlevaniaIVU164.png)
Rondo
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/zzCDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-10.png)  (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/zzzCDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1.png)

ah rolf, blacky just beat me to it :D

STATUS: COMPARE Lords of Thunder SEGA-CD vs. PCE (https://archives.tg-16.com/music_database.htm?col=en&val=lord#music). Nothing fancy, mind you. Just download and compare tracks side-by-side. Manually.

I AM WELL AWARE: My comment is going to be quickly buried by the new developments in this thread. Ha!

Quote from: esteban on 03/21/2013, 11:40 PMSTATUS: COMPARE Lords of Thunder SEGA-CD vs. PCE (https://archives.tg-16.com/music_database.htm?col=en&val=lord#music). Nothing fancy, mind you. Just download and compare tracks side-by-side. Manually.

I AM WELL AWARE: My comment is going to be quickly buried by the new developments in this thread. Ha!

The performance in the Sega version feels like the band is struggling to pull it off, even at the overall inferior level that they do. The main solos have been replaced by poor substitutes that don't compliment the music. The levels that the music was mastered at make the Turbo/PCE version sound like Rust in Peace and the Sega version sound like The World Needs a Hero. Just a goofy sounding poor cover overall. But if you're a fan of modern pop music where everything is LOUD, or the type who doesn't actually listen to the compositions or performance of game music, -only caring about instruments having the most "modern" sound (see youtube comments of Genesis/SNES music comparisons), then I'd expect that the Sega-CD meets your needs.

I have a unique Sega/Turbo LoT music comparison near completed, but literally have no free time for like a week.

lords of thunder for sega cd is cool f you dont have a pce but if you can play the real deal why bother

Comparing Dracula X's sprite animation frames with the SNES Castlevanias and Bloodlines is a good way to show some of what's so cool about Dracula X, but it's misleading as a representation of the overall quality of the visuals in those games and the best animation on the three systems. Dracula X's sprites are almost exclusively what Konami focused on to give Dracula X its graphical punch. In the SNES and Genesis Castlevanias, their emphasis is much more on other kinds of details and effects. The sprites are modest more-or-less by choice.

Games like Donkey Kong Country (http://spriters-resource.com/snes/dkc/sheet/45659) and Aladdin (http://spriters-resource.com/genesis/alladin/sheet/15383), for starters, are much better.

Quote from: SamIAm on 03/22/2013, 12:00 PMComparing Dracula X's sprite animation frames with the SNES Castlevanias and Bloodlines is a good way to show some of what's so cool about Dracula X, but it's misleading as a representation of the overall quality of the visuals in those games and the best animation on the three systems.

The point was to show that the PCE is capable of heavily animated sprites (even within the restrictions of a SuperCD), comparable to Aladdin or Earthworm Jim.  Nobody is saying that the Genesis and SNES aren't capable of similar feats.

Quote from: guest on 03/22/2013, 12:20 PMThe point was to show that the PCE is capable of heavily animated sprites (even within the restrictions of a SuperCD), comparable to Aladdin or Earthworm Jim.  Nobody is saying that the Genesis and SNES aren't capable of similar feats.

Fair enough. But if that's the case, why not compare them to Aladdin or Earthworm Jim directly? Why side by side with the other Castlevanias?

I guess it could be that that's just how the links were copy/pasted in a group.

Quote from: SamIAm on 03/22/2013, 12:00 PMDracula X's sprites are almost exclusively what Konami focused on to give Dracula X its graphical punch. 

And the rest of the game looks like meatgrinder sauce? I think that drac x shows some of the nicest back ground presentation in the whole 16-bit game era. so many details, so much variations, so much graphical content overall. no other akumajou game came just close to that. not before the 32-bit era was ringed in.

Quote from: SamIAm on 03/22/2013, 12:44 PM

Quote from: NecroPhile on 03/22/2013, 12:20 PMThe point was to show that the PCE is capable of heavily animated sprites (even within the restrictions of a SuperCD), comparable to Aladdin or Earthworm Jim.  Nobody is saying that the Genesis and SNES aren't capable of similar feats.

Fair enough. But if that's the case, why not compare them to Aladdin or Earthworm Jim directly? Why side by side with the other Castlevanias?

I guess it could be that that's just how the links were copy/pasted in a group.

Yeah, that's all copy and pasted from the screen comparison thread, where the Castlevania animation was being compared.

Quote from: guest on 03/21/2013, 08:50 PM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/21/2013, 05:13 PMI think this is more of a matter of those sorts of games, the high end AAA American developed platformers, coming about after nearly all development of platformers on PCE came to an end. Most PCE platformers are pretty low end, designed to compete with the Famicom-era.

Comparing the animation in Dracula X to Earthworm jim is pretty ridiculous. Richtor is small and walks like he has a broom handle shoved up his ass. I do see your point, there is plenty of power in the SCD system to make an Aladdin or EJ, but Drac X isn't a good comparison. The hold back wasn't technical, it just that the people making those sorts of games were either in the US or they were working on Super Famicom so the PCE got left out of the great graphical leap forward with EJ, Aladdin, that kind of thing.

I guess that you somehow missed the massive PCE, SNES and Genesis, screen comparison thread. (https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=633;sa=showPosts;start=225) Dracula X has characters with comparable levels of animation to characters in EWJ and Aladdin and way more animation overall than either EWJ or Aladdin.

Your hyper sensitivity to anything you consider critical of the PCE is getting the best of you again. I've certainly seen that wall you just posted there before. Its very cool. Its pointless though because in no way am I doubting the PCE here on a technical level.

Drac X has a lot of frames, but frames don't make good animation, they only allow for potential. Richter's sprite is...its fucking terrible. There is no other way to put it. Nobody walks like that unless they are wearing roller skates and a back brace. His head stays at the same level all the time and he looks, frankly, like he has severe constipation. Its fucking terrible. He has frames, sure, but Mario's sprite from Donkey Kong is a better piece of work with...whatever that is, a four color sprite with three frames of animation. Frame count does not automatically make for good animation. Compare GI Joe to Zeta Gundam and you'll find Zeta to be a better looking show with fewer frames and a fraction of the budget.

Regardless, this is totally beside the point, the reason why there are no games like Aladdin on the PCE is because nobody made them. Shiny didn't make Turbo Grafx games, by this point neither did Capcom (save for a shitty port of Strider, a game from 1989). Earthworm Jim came out in 1994 and was a very good looking game for that year. There were only two or three platformers released in 1994 for the PCE, a year when most of the flashier action games were ports. Nobody was developing cutting edge platformers for PCE at that time. If they were we certainly would have seen some Aladdin/Earthworm Jim quality stuff.

Quote from: Tatsujin on 03/21/2013, 08:57 PM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/21/2013, 05:13 PMComparing the animation in Dracula X to Earthworm jim is pretty ridiculous. Richtor is small and walks like he has a broom handle shoved up his ass.

I think he was more refering to this kind of animation stuff in drac x, which is by any means just crazy. even for todays standards.





Death Rondo
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/s1k-12.png)(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/s1uz-1-1.png)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/untitlededs.png)(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/untitlededslk.png)
                 Death SCIV                                                                    Death Bloodlines
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/cv4death.png)                  (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/death.png)          






Rondo
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/untitledfs.png)
Dracula xx                                                                                    Bloodlines
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/Castlevania-DraculaXU413kjn.png)       (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/elizabethbartleym.png)







Rondo
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1-8.png)
Dracula xx
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/untitledwwl.png)







Rondo
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1-21.png)
Bloodlines                                                         SCIV
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/frankensteinsmonstern.png) (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/SuperCastlevaniaIVU085.png)






Rondo
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1-9.png)
SCIV
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/puwexyl-1.png)






Rondo
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1-20.png)
SCIV
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/sirgrakul.png)







Rondo
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1-14.png)
Bloodlines
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/giantswordknight.png)







Rondo
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1-13.png)
SCIV                                                  Bloodlines
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/enemiesnjn.png)                       (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/bonescimitar.png)







Rondo                                     Dracxx      
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1-7.png)   (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/Castlevania-DraculaXU354.png)
SCIV                                         Bloodlines
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/frankensteinsmonsterlkmjh.png)  (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/merman-1.png)









Rondo                                      Dracxx, forgot to add the 2 bones.
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1-16.png)  (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/Castlevania-DraculaXU413-1.png)
SCIV
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/enemieslx-1.png)









Rondo                                                     Dracxx
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1-3.png)  (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/Castlevania-DraculaXU354l-1.png)









Rondo
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1-15.png)
Dracxx
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/Castlevania-DraculaXU343.png)










Rondo
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1-11.png)
SCIV
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/rowdain.png)



 :shock: Rondo                                            dracxx
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1-4.png)  (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/Castlevania-DraculaXU432.png)


SCIV                                              Bloodlines
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/zSuperCastlevaniaIVU030.png) (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/Castlevania-BloodlinesU_000-1.gif)
                                            
                              Rondo
                              (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1001.png)


second set, swing/swing while walking up stairs/swing while walking down stairs/swing while ducking/ jumping.

Bloodlines                                                    SCIV
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/Castlevania-BloodlinesU_010.gif) (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/zSuperCastlevaniaIVU164.png)
Rondo
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/zzCDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-10.png)  (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/zzzCDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1.png)

Obviously you are comparing a CD 788 Megs to a 15-20 meg cart.  We all know it can load more frames of animation with a larger CD however in terms of say Earthworm Jim or vector man, you really see the TG16 pulling that off?  I doubt it I really do.  I have spent hours running through my collection on my puter and the closest thing I can see is Magical Chase in terms of Cart.  I am not even that impressed with SSFII, slow and small sprites for some reason.  The shooters really floor me however.  The PCE lacked support I'll give it that but it did what it did well, massive color, it owned the 16Bit genre unless you include the Neo Geo which most of us do not.  That said I like Dracula X but it's not runnign crazy animation or a lot of stuff going on like again Vector man or Alien Soldier.  Gunstar Heroes being another.  The Mega Drive coudla really had a color increase though Bloodlines and Dynamite Headdy had a bunch a tricks to get past 64 limit.

Quote from: SamIAm on 03/22/2013, 12:00 PMComparing Dracula X's sprite animation frames with the SNES Castlevanias and Bloodlines is a good way to show some of what's so cool about Dracula X, but it's misleading as a representation of the overall quality of the visuals in those games and the best animation on the three systems. Dracula X's sprites are almost exclusively what Konami focused on to give Dracula X its graphical punch. In the SNES and Genesis Castlevanias, their emphasis is much more on other kinds of details and effects. The sprites are modest more-or-less by choice.

Games like Donkey Kong Country (http://spriters-resource.com/snes/dkc/sheet/45659) and Aladdin (http://spriters-resource.com/genesis/alladin/sheet/15383), for starters, are much better.

This is my point exactly, I just don't see the PCE doing games like Vector Man or Aladdin, not as smooth it just can't.  Colors hell yeah but not the smooth animation and speed of Vector man I just ran through that game again I don't see it.

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/22/2013, 05:58 PMObviously...I...

...have not checked my PMs about obnoxious signatures.

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/22/2013, 05:19 PMRegardless, this is totally beside the point, the reason why there are no games like Aladdin on the PCE is because nobody made them.

And that was never the question; it's pretty clear that Evo is talking about technical abilities and not about existing game libraries.

Do not debate with EvilEvoIX. 60+ pages were wasted on sega-16 with people trying to reason with him (Genesis fans valiantly defending the PCE). No matter how specific an example you give him, it won't change his mind that even though he "has all the games", he is convinced that the PC Engine is just an NES that can do more color and not part of the same generation as Genesis and SNES. He also doesn't count the CD games as being PCE or part of any generation, because the CD-ROM upgrades and reflashes the bios of the PC Engine hardware and CD games could not be done on HuCards.

The SFII' sprites appearing "slow and small" to him is all you need to know.

Quote from: guest on 03/22/2013, 07:03 PMDo not debate with EvilEvoIX. 60+ pages were wasted on sega-16 with people trying to reason with him (Genesis fans valiantly defending the PCE). No matter how specific an example you give him, it won't change his mind that even though he "has all the games", he is convinced that the PC Engine is just an NES that can do more color and not part of the same generation as Genesis and SNES. He also doesn't count the CD games as being PCE or part of any generation, because the CD-ROM upgrades and reflashes the bios of the PC Engine hardware and CD games could not be done on HuCards.

The SFII' sprites appearing "slow and small" to him is all you need to know.

I've played Street Fighter 2, on the PCE.  I don't think it's as good as the md or snes.  How can you even argue it runs at the same speed?  I have all three games the md certain runs the most fluid and the least amount if slow down.  What game on the PCE comes close to the later games on the MD?  Everyone and their mother screwms Dracula x.  Great game but not the end all be all.  The music is for sure.  Not one example given that moves as smooth as Vector man or earthworm Jim or Alien Soldier.  I just get anger from people.  That said I feel the PCE Had the best shooters and am still trying to beat most of them.



It's hard to directly compare these two machines directly as a lot of turbo cd games can't compete against the sega cd because the sega cd has upgraded hardware so it's tough and we compare a cd to a md cart.  That said I love the turbo and md about the same followed by the nes and then the snes in that order.

I suspect that there is very, very little difference between the SNES, PCE and Genesis in terms of their practical, technological limits on doing sprite animation. They all have the very similar bottlenecks in terms of color, pixel bandwidth, and memory. It's a fairly unremarkable thing to compare, IMO.

The reason why there's nothing like the best Genesis stuff is mostly because nobody made it. Even Treasure said in an interview that there's not really anything that special about moving a few sprites around together. The important thing is the artistic vision to make it look good.

Quote from: Tatsujin on 03/22/2013, 12:50 PMAnd the rest of the game looks like meatgrinder sauce? I think that drac x shows some of the nicest back ground presentation in the whole 16-bit game era. so many details, so much variations, so much graphical content overall. no other akumajou game came just close to that. not before the 32-bit era was ringed in.

The backgrounds are kind of hit and miss, though. Some of them are technically and artistically very well done, like the final third of stage 1 on the normal path. For every moment like that, though, there's another like this:
(http://members2.jcom.home.ne.jp/revelation12/history/data/12_data/rt_04a.gif)
or this:
(http://members2.jcom.home.ne.jp/revelation12/history/data/12_data/rt_04b.gif)

I actually think CV4's environments are much more interesting to look at overall, in spite of a couple of odd palette choices. They may not win the background-tile count, but they move more interestingly thanks to all the layers and effects. If you were to describe the scenes with words rather than tile-counts, they also hold up very well in terms of amount of detail.

Once you get past the flashy cutscenes and high-production music in DraculaX, I think the game's greatest asset is its bosses. Not only is their size, color, and animation the best in old-school Castlevania, but their behaviors and the tactics they demand to beat them are the most sophisticated as well. CV4 does really badly there, and CV3 and the X68K game aren't quite there, either. That's what I'd tell a first-time player to focus on and try to appreciate. The backgrounds, not so much.

Artistic vision is indeed Paramount.  I always thought Nintendo particularly the SNES had extremely clever artistic vision.  The PCE was clever in the legendary ax series and Bonk for sure.  Magical Chase is really colorful and some neat sprites.  Think the shooters are by far the most clever.  Top quality stuff it owns the 16 bit gen for sure.

Quote from: guest on 03/22/2013, 07:03 PMDo not debate with EvilEvoIX. 60+ pages were wasted on sega-16 with people trying to reason with him (Genesis fans valiantly defending the PCE). No matter how specific an example you give him, it won't change his mind that even though he "has all the games", he is convinced that the PC Engine is just an NES that can do more color and not part of the same generation as Genesis and SNES. He also doesn't count the CD games as being PCE or part of any generation, because the CD-ROM upgrades and reflashes the bios of the PC Engine hardware and CD games could not be done on HuCards.

The SFII' sprites appearing "slow and small" to him is all you need to know.

Yeah that's...pretty dumb. Is he comparing the PCE SFII' to Turbo on the other systems perhaps? Regardless, I'm not sure where the "small" comes from. All three systems have smaller sprites than the arcade.

SFII' is kind of annoying to me because its so often used as a yardstick of PCE power by people who understand the PCE really well but don't honestly know shit about Street Fighter. This guy seems to not really know either and also be blind.

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/22/2013, 09:09 PM

Quote from: guest on 03/22/2013, 07:03 PMDo not debate with EvilEvoIX. 60+ pages were wasted on sega-16 with people trying to reason with him (Genesis fans valiantly defending the PCE). No matter how specific an example you give him, it won't change his mind that even though he "has all the games", he is convinced that the PC Engine is just an NES that can do more color and not part of the same generation as Genesis and SNES. He also doesn't count the CD games as being PCE or part of any generation, because the CD-ROM upgrades and reflashes the bios of the PC Engine hardware and CD games could not be done on HuCards.

The SFII' sprites appearing "slow and small" to him is all you need to know.

Yeah that's...pretty dumb. Is he comparing the PCE SFII' to Turbo on the other systems perhaps? Regardless, I'm not sure where the "small" comes from. All three systems have smaller sprites than the arcade.

SFII' is kind of annoying to me because its so often used as a yardstick of PCE power by people who understand the PCE really well but don't honestly know shit about Street Fighter. This guy seems to not really know either and also be blind.

This is the problem with fanboi posts.  Take the rosé colored glasses off.  Understand that all consoles have strengths and weaknesses.  Enjoy the console for what it is and what it represents.  Not one console is the end all be all.  To me the PCE represents color perfection and excellent shooters and really cool upgrades.  The Snes as a main stream consoles with extremely clever 1st party games and art and stupid amounts of slow down.  The Mega Drive to me shows the experience of Sega and arcade hardware and using arcade hits to grow their console and build on that.  What's not to like between the three and I own them all.

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/22/2013, 09:29 PM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/22/2013, 09:09 PM

Quote from: guest on 03/22/2013, 07:03 PMDo not debate with EvilEvoIX. 60+ pages were wasted on sega-16 with people trying to reason with him (Genesis fans valiantly defending the PCE). No matter how specific an example you give him, it won't change his mind that even though he "has all the games", he is convinced that the PC Engine is just an NES that can do more color and not part of the same generation as Genesis and SNES. He also doesn't count the CD games as being PCE or part of any generation, because the CD-ROM upgrades and reflashes the bios of the PC Engine hardware and CD games could not be done on HuCards.

The SFII' sprites appearing "slow and small" to him is all you need to know.

Yeah that's...pretty dumb. Is he comparing the PCE SFII' to Turbo on the other systems perhaps? Regardless, I'm not sure where the "small" comes from. All three systems have smaller sprites than the arcade.

SFII' is kind of annoying to me because its so often used as a yardstick of PCE power by people who understand the PCE really well but don't honestly know shit about Street Fighter. This guy seems to not really know either and also be blind.

This is the problem with fanboi posts.  Take the rosé colored glasses off.  Understand that all consoles have strengths and weaknesses.  Enjoy the console for what it is and what it represents.

The real problem with fanboi posts is the stupid-ass gifs in the sig.

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/22/2013, 09:29 PMUnderstand that all consoles have strengths and weaknesses.  Enjoy the console for what it is and what it represents.  Not one console is the end all be all. 

FALSE
THE PCE IS LIFE!  EVERYTHING ELSE EXISTS SO THAT THE PCE MAY EXISTS.  WITHOUT PCE LIFE HAS NO MEANING.

Quote from: galam on 03/22/2013, 06:06 PM

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/22/2013, 05:58 PMObviously...I...

...have not checked my PMs about obnoxious signatures.

(https://www.thegforum.ch/images/smilies/arnold.png)

Quote from: guest on 03/22/2013, 07:03 PMThe SFII' sprites appearing "slow and small" to him is all you need to know.

that statement of him brought me quite a good giggle (http://www.thegforum.ch/images/smilies/kicher.gif)

and it also instant-disqualifies him from any further tech discussions regarding the pc engine.

Quote from: SamIAm on 03/22/2013, 08:04 PMI suspect that there is very, very little difference between the SNES, PCE and Genesis in terms of their practical, technological limits on doing sprite animation. They all have the very similar bottlenecks in terms of color, pixel bandwidth, and memory. It's a fairly unremarkable thing to compare, IMO.

The reason why there's nothing like the best Genesis stuff is mostly because nobody made it. Even Treasure said in an interview that there's not really anything that special about moving a few sprites around together. The important thing is the artistic vision to make it look good.

Quote from: Tatsujin on 03/22/2013, 12:50 PMAnd the rest of the game looks like meatgrinder sauce? I think that drac x shows some of the nicest back ground presentation in the whole 16-bit game era. so many details, so much variations, so much graphical content overall. no other akumajou game came just close to that. not before the 32-bit era was ringed in.

The backgrounds are kind of hit and miss, though. Some of them are technically and artistically very well done, like the final third of stage 1 on the normal path. For every moment like that, though, there's another like this:
(http://members2.jcom.home.ne.jp/revelation12/history/data/12_data/rt_04a.gif)
or this:
(http://members2.jcom.home.ne.jp/revelation12/history/data/12_data/rt_04b.gif)

I actually think CV4's environments are much more interesting to look at overall, in spite of a couple of odd palette choices. They may not win the background-tile count, but they move more interestingly thanks to all the layers and effects. If you were to describe the scenes with words rather than tile-counts, they also hold up very well in terms of amount of detail.

Once you get past the flashy cutscenes and high-production music in DraculaX, I think the game's greatest asset is its bosses. Not only is their size, color, and animation the best in old-school Castlevania, but their behaviors and the tactics they demand to beat them are the most sophisticated as well. CV4 does really badly there, and CV3 and the X68K game aren't quite there, either. That's what I'd tell a first-time player to focus on and try to appreciate. The backgrounds, not so much.

I may live on with that statement, but I have to say that f.e. bloodlines (vampire killer) has much more boring and very misscolored backgrounds here and there. at times it is a real pain to even watch at it.

As for CV4, I don't see so many memorable and nice backgrounds there, like in Drac X. A lot of them are also made by a bunch of randomly placed bland blurred mixed pixels, with not much of an expression or charisma, which reminds me much more of the NES era, than anyting seen in Drac X.

(http://www.thegforum.ch/images/smilies/happy.gif)

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/22/2013, 08:27 PMI have spent hours running through my collection on my puter and the closest thing I can see is Magical Chase in terms of Cart. 

do you even own a real hardware and games? or are you pulling off your poor statements based on some crappy emulator trials during boring lonesome nights?

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/22/2013, 09:46 PM

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/22/2013, 09:29 PM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/22/2013, 09:09 PM

Quote from: guest on 03/22/2013, 07:03 PMDo not debate with EvilEvoIX. 60+ pages were wasted on sega-16 with people trying to reason with him (Genesis fans valiantly defending the PCE). No matter how specific an example you give him, it won't change his mind that even though he "has all the games", he is convinced that the PC Engine is just an NES that can do more color and not part of the same generation as Genesis and SNES. He also doesn't count the CD games as being PCE or part of any generation, because the CD-ROM upgrades and reflashes the bios of the PC Engine hardware and CD games could not be done on HuCards.

The SFII' sprites appearing "slow and small" to him is all you need to know.

Yeah that's...pretty dumb. Is he comparing the PCE SFII' to Turbo on the other systems perhaps? Regardless, I'm not sure where the "small" comes from. All three systems have smaller sprites than the arcade.

SFII' is kind of annoying to me because its so often used as a yardstick of PCE power by people who understand the PCE really well but don't honestly know shit about Street Fighter. This guy seems to not really know either and also be blind.

This is the problem with fanboi posts.  Take the rosé colored glasses off.  Understand that all consoles have strengths and weaknesses.  Enjoy the console for what it is and what it represents.

The real problem with fanboi posts is the stupid-ass gifs in the sig.

Can't hate on Terry Bogard boy you'll just sound silly.

Quote from: Tatsujin on 03/22/2013, 10:34 PM

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/22/2013, 08:27 PMI have spent hours running through my collection on my puter and the closest thing I can see is Magical Chase in terms of Cart.

do you even own a real hardware and games? or are you pulling off your poor statements based on some crappy emulator trials during boring lonesome nights?

Does the ever drive count?  I have one for my Genesis and now the PCE.  I have most games for both.

And whoever posted that Treasure could make the three systems do similar things is wrong.
In fact, here is an interview with Treasure from 1993.  Very interesting.

http://megadrive.me/2011/11/03/an-interview-with-treasure/

(https://megadrive.me/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/treasure-gamefan-interview.jpg)

Well, first of all, all "hate on" whatever the fuck I want.

Now that that's said, that animation is one of my favorite in the history of fighting games. I love the good ol Buster Wolf.

However, many of us are experiencing significant slowdown on our machine thanks to this gif of yours. Terry is cool as hell, but you're being a prick by bogging down other people's PCEFX experience. We would appreciate it if you'd replace it with a less CPU-intensive graphic.

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/22/2013, 11:18 PMWell, first of all, all "hate on" whatever the fuck I want.

Now that that's said, that animation is one of my favorite in the history of fighting games. I love the good ol Buster Wolf.

However, many of us are experiencing significant slowdown on our machine thanks to this gif of yours. Terry is cool as hell, but you're being a prick by bogging down other people's PCEFX experience. We would appreciate it if you'd replace it with a less CPU-intensive graphic.

Ok I see your point now.  Ill post up a PCE animation it's far less grafical intensive ;).

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/22/2013, 11:22 PM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/22/2013, 11:18 PMWell, first of all, all "hate on" whatever the fuck I want.

Now that that's said, that animation is one of my favorite in the history of fighting games. I love the good ol Buster Wolf.

However, many of us are experiencing significant slowdown on our machine thanks to this gif of yours. Terry is cool as hell, but you're being a prick by bogging down other people's PCEFX experience. We would appreciate it if you'd replace it with a less CPU-intensive graphic.

Ok I see your point now.  Ill post up a PCE animation it's far less grafical intensive ;).

Now you see hes point, even we're trying to tell you since a week, also with PMs sent?

How just simply about something non-animated non-bulky, or just a simple cool text? Too much asked? We're not over at fancy pantsy troll drift Neo-Geo & co. here.

I remember Tom made a good post about PCE SFII's speed where he explained why it wasn't particularly relevant - to the system running the game at 60fps, fast vs. slow is basically a difference of waiting a couple extra frames before loading the next animation frame. Do you wait three frames, or five? There's nothing taxing about waiting. What matters is the processes that happen on the frame where the next animation loads. If PCE SFII had simplified collision detection zones or didn't break down the character into as many pieces, then THAT would be a pretty good indicator that it didn't have the juice to handle the game well.

I do suspect that the PCE would choke a bit on the particular activity in Gunstar Heroes and Alien Soldier, but I also think it could do something similar enough. Look at all the crap flying around in shooters like Lords of Thunder. There's not a huge difference between a dozen independent enemies and a boss made of a dozen jointed parts.

The best games are usually built around a specific piece of hardware and don't port very well. The Genesis can't do Star Wars (arcade). Not because it lacks CPU or anything, but because SW uses vector graphics and nothing that does raster graphics at 240 lines can pull this off. You need at least a Dreamcast to approximate SW, Battlezone, Asteroids, etc.

Gunstar would fucking destroy a SNES if it was ported as-is. However, games like Scrambled Valkyrie or Yoshi's Island ported to Genesis would be about as pathetic as Ikari Warriors for NES.

All this is a bunch of fanboi BS. Different systems are different. That's why they are worth owning.

Quote from: SamIAm on 03/22/2013, 11:58 PMI do suspect that the PCE would choke a bit on the particular activity in Gunstar Heroes and Alien Soldier, but I also think it could do something similar enough. Look at all the crap flying around in shooters like Lords of Thunder. There's not a huge difference between a dozen independent enemies and a boss made of a dozen jointed parts.

It certainly would do a better job than the SNES and the colors on screen would make it look really interesting.  They always do PCE games always "pop", always did.

Quote from: Tatsujin on 02/05/2013, 08:51 PMSonic 1 is my favorite Sonic :)

Quote from: Shadow on 03/23/2013, 06:52 AM

Quote from: Tatsujin on 02/05/2013, 08:51 PMSonic 1 is my favorite Sonic :)

do you agree with me shady, or not? :)

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/23/2013, 01:03 AMThe best games are usually built around a specific piece of hardware and don't port very well. The Genesis can't do Star Wars (arcade). Not because it lacks CPU or anything, but because SW uses vector graphics and nothing that does raster graphics at 240 lines can pull this off. You need at least a Dreamcast to approximate SW, Battlezone, Asteroids, etc.

Gunstar would fucking destroy a SNES if it was ported as-is. However, games like Scrambled Valkyrie or Yoshi's Island ported to Genesis would be about as pathetic as Ikari Warriors for NES.

All this is a bunch of fanboi BS. Different systems are different. That's why they are worth owning.

Yoshi's Island has a Super FX Chip.  The Mega Drive would need the SVP chip and then could do anything the Yoshi Island cart can do but color.  The SNES uses more of a sampled sound arrangement as well.  It has a keyboard basically and you plug in the notes so you get a clean sampled sound.  The Megadrive literally is a synthesizer so it needs more care with sound.

Scrambled Valkyrie is really clever is that it takes advantage of the SNES's 4 layers of background/foreground moving so it looks like a ton of shit on screen when there CPU is being taxed only a certain amount.  The Megadrive as we know can only handle three but the CPU should be able to create an additional layer of sprites just like the PCE does to make a moving background.

You missed the point. It doesn't matter why which system did what. They're all dead now. All that matters is that this was a great era for games and there is a ton of cool stuff on all of these machines.

Also, the Neo kicks them all to the curb so these arguments are meaningless. :)

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/23/2013, 12:37 PM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/23/2013, 01:03 AMThe best games are usually built around a specific piece of hardware and don't port very well. The Genesis can't do Star Wars (arcade). Not because it lacks CPU or anything, but because SW uses vector graphics and nothing that does raster graphics at 240 lines can pull this off. You need at least a Dreamcast to approximate SW, Battlezone, Asteroids, etc.

Gunstar would fucking destroy a SNES if it was ported as-is. However, games like Scrambled Valkyrie or Yoshi's Island ported to Genesis would be about as pathetic as Ikari Warriors for NES.

All this is a bunch of fanboi BS. Different systems are different. That's why they are worth owning.

Yoshi's Island has a Super FX Chip.  The Mega Drive would need the SVP chip and then could do anything the Yoshi Island cart can do but color.  The SNES uses more of a sampled sound arrangement as well.  It has a keyboard basically and you plug in the notes so you get a clean sampled sound.  The Megadrive literally is a synthesizer so it needs more care with sound.

Scrambled Valkyrie is really clever is that it takes advantage of the SNES's 4 layers of background/foreground moving so it looks like a ton of shit on screen when there CPU is being taxed only a certain amount.  The Megadrive as we know can only handle three but the CPU should be able to create an additional layer of sprites just like the PCE does to make a moving background.

SNES run 'n guns already show how you could drop the Gunstar Heroes theme in and have a nice enough game. For anything you might lose there's lots to gain, especially if technical tricks were to still be spammed. The Genesis version has noticeable swatches of missing color in most scenes that could be majorly upgraded. Even the Game Gear version still fills the screen with sprites, has the huge sprite jumble bosses and multi-directional two layer parallax that is "technically impossible" for PC Engine.

It's true that the SNES couldn't handle a port of Yoshi's Island either. I'm sure that the Genesis would do a better job and the art style suits its color limitations.

There aren't any parts of Macross SV that require 4 tile layers, for the most part the parallax is all stuff that has been done on PCE with only a single tile layer. The only things that would be downgraded in a Genesis port would be color/detail and transparency effects. Otherwise the onscreen sprites could probably be doubled as it's a pretty low action game by SFC standards.

Quote from: guest on 03/23/2013, 02:06 PMIt's true that the SNES couldn't handle a port of Yoshi's Island either.

That sentence makes zero sense to me for some reason.

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/23/2013, 01:59 PMYou missed the point. It doesn't matter why which system did what. They're all dead now. All that matters is that this was a great era for games and there is a ton of cool stuff on all of these machines.

Also, the Neo kicks them all to the curb so these arguments are meaningless. :)

This is why I've owned my neo 4 10 years now and have had 2 cabs.  The Neo rules.  I feel the 16-32bit era is the best.

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/23/2013, 03:18 PM

Quote from: guest on 03/23/2013, 02:06 PMIt's true that the SNES couldn't handle a port of Yoshi's Island either.

That sentence makes zero sense to me for some reason.

MANY SNES games required additional hardware to run their games.  The most notable being the SUPER FX chip.  Games like Mario Kart needed help with the mode 7 effects and so many other games required helper chips to keep the burden off a relatively weak 16-Bit processor.  The MEGADRIVE in comparison is based off arcade hardware and only one game, Virtua Racing, used upgrades.  This is why I respect the PCE and MEGADRIVE much more than the SNES.  I mean look at what could be done with all these simple hardware upgrades.

...WHO GIVES A SHIT!?

The system requirements to run Yoshi's Island are the same as the ones needed to run Home Alone: a cartridge with the game on it. It doesn't matter one bit to me if Nintendo "cheated" by adding a $2 chip to the game cart. It still runs on my SNES.

You fanboys are friggn ridiculous.

...to say that Yoshi's Island can't run on the only system it actually ran on (before the slightly inferior portable ones released a decade later) is...crazy. You guys are nuts.

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/23/2013, 06:06 PM...WHO GIVES A SHIT!?

The system requirements to run Yoshi's Island are the same as the ones needed to run Home Alone: a cartridge with the game on it. It doesn't matter one bit to me if Nintendo "cheated" by adding a $2 chip to the game cart. It still runs on my SNES.

You fanboys are friggn ridiculous.

...to say that Yoshi's Island can't run on the only system it actually ran on (before the slightly inferior portable ones released a decade later) is...crazy. You guys are nuts.

It's just interesting to have this level of performance and competition.  Back then each system was do different and unique in the way it did games.  Today all systems are basically the same there is no variety.

ah, it's much better now.

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/23/2013, 06:06 PM...WHO GIVES A SHIT!?

The system requirements to run Yoshi's Island are the same as the ones needed to run Home Alone: a cartridge with the game on it. It doesn't matter one bit to me if Nintendo "cheated" by adding a $2 chip to the game cart. It still runs on my SNES.

You fanboys are friggn ridiculous.

...to say that Yoshi's Island can't run on the only system it actually ran on (before the slightly inferior portable ones released a decade later) is...crazy. You guys are nuts.

Your hyper sensitivity to anything you consider critical of the SNES is getting the best of you again. Although you claim to not care about this stuff, you've once again resorted to yelling and swearing when it is suggested that competing consoles could approach what the SNES has done. At the same time you call people pointing out an indisputable technical fact "friggin ridiculous" "fanboys".

The SNES runs most SNES games at 2.66 MHz.
The Sega/Mega-CD CPU runs at 12.5 MHz (you made a big deal of this earlier).
The SFX2 chip runs Yoshi's Island at 21 MHz.

The extra hardware that Yoshi's Island requires to run on the SNES isn't something minimal like the mappers most NES games use or compression chip to increase cart space. It's a full on CPU. But it's not even a huge 150% speed increase like the Sega/Mega-CD... it's 8 times faster than what the SNES runs most games at.

Sure the Retrogen is just a tiny pass through strip that could fit inside a single cart along with a Genesis game PCB. But the SNES isn't really running the Genesis games and couldn't even if they were reformatted like a PCE CD to HuCard conversion.


12.5 MHz Sega-CD = "really damned powerful... The PCE is a much slower machine and the CDROM2 doesn't add anywhere near as much power to the PCE as the MCD does to the MD"

21 MHz SFX2 = "a $2 chip"


Back to the original point, there is nothing special about Yoshi's Island that distinguishes it from other SNES games in any way which would make it impossible to port to Sega Genesis. Except the extra hardware. That is why it is a poor example. Sure you could super charge the Genesis with a SFX2, but again that would remove the only thing unique that makes it more difficult to adapt to Genesis compared to regular SNES games.

Yoshi's Island isn't a "poor example" of what the SNES can do. Its the BEST example of what the SNES can do. Its the fanciest most SNES-erific game on the SNES. The Genesis is about as capable of running Yoshi's Island as it is of running Windows 7 and any port of it would be as embarrassing as the SNES port of Art of Fighting.

Sure, it needed an extra chip to do it, but in practical use that's beyond irrelevant. You put the game in and it runs. Its a SNES game. It won't fit in a Genesis. Who fucking cares of that cart has a coprocessor in it or not? Who cares if its black magic, or a tiny cockroach on a treadmill or analog tape player with the soundtrack on it? It only matters to you, and you don't like the SNES or Yoshi's Island. The only reason you even know the FX is there is because you read it somewhere, and that kind of trivial bullshit is evidently all you care about.

These systems are all different. They all have different strengths and flaws. This isn't a bad thing, its a TERRIFIC thing. Its okay that the MD cannot do YI because the SNES can't do The Adventures of Batman and Robbin, the Neo Geo can't do Super Mario Kart, and the Genesis can't do Samurai Showdown.

And when I say "can't" I mean. Never ever ever will. Tech demos and stats are fucking useless they made it into a period retail game because nobody is going to program top shelf games for these systems again. All the great stuff that will ever be made for the 16-bit stuff has already been made and that's what defines the system; the actual experience of actually playing it.

The neo geo could indeed do Mario kart.  It's a sprite monster it would just "brute force" the floor as it were.

so why did they then riding hero instead?

No, the Neo Geo can't do anything like Mode 7 (scaling with a perspective). And then asking the Neo Geo to rotate that? Not gonna happen. No way, no how. The Neo Geo couldn't do rotation. The Neo Geo couldn't even do Batman Returns as it is seen on the Sega CD.

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/23/2013, 11:49 PMThe only reason you even know the FX is there is because you read it somewhere

It was widely advertised. SNES fanbois (your spelling) always mention it. They are very proud that the system needs to cheat to make a game like that. It's like saying "My Dodge Durango can go over 500 mph... if it were strapped to a rocket". Sure, the Dodge IS going that fast, but it's not right to give the credit to the Durango at all. Give the credit to the rocket. Remember, it takes the SNES almost two weeks to add 2+2. This has been proven by scientific experiments on the moon.

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/23/2013, 11:49 PMnobody is going to program top shelf games for these systems again. All the great stuff that will ever be made for the 16-bit stuff has already been made and that's what defines the system

Nobody? Watermelon is doing some pretty damn top shelf stuff on the Genesis. They're still making games. Hell, they're even working on a SNES game. Check your sources before you say something like that.

However big a fault it is that they used such a slow CPU in the SNES, it's graphics and sound functions are so much more versatile than the others that SNES games which used them well are practically un-portable.

Perhaps the best example that didn't use any enhancement chip is Super Metroid. No chip in a cart is going to make the Genesis able to run that game in a way that wouldn't be really embarrassing in a side-by-side comparison. Same with Donkey Kong Country (2 especially).

For that matter, you could take out the SFX chip from Yoshi's Island, and it would look, sound, and play mostly the same - identical in many areas. But while ports on the Genesis and TG-16 would have the core gameplay mostly intact, they would look and sound terrible. To make it run on beautifully on the Genesis, you would pretty much need a "Super Nintendo chip" inside the cartridge. It's not impossible, but it's well outside the scope of what people were doing with enhancement chips in those days.

CPU power is the one advantage that the other two systems have over the SNES, but that advantage is easily negated by a cheap co-processor. Not so for the SNES's functions. Part of what's so cool about Yoshi's Island is that whoever owned a stock SNES could buy the game (at a negligably increased price) and run it on their system. No three-digit add-ons necessary.

Quote from: SamIAmBut while ports on the Genesis and TG-16 would have the core gameplay mostly intact, they would look and sound terrible.

Why would they sound terrible? It's not like Yoshi's Island sounds great to begin with. There's nothing special about how that particular game sounds. I can't even remember the music and I've played it recently. Sound different, yes. Look different? Definitely. Look and sound terrible? Hard to say. If they did the CGI graphics in Donkey Kong Country yeah it would look pretty bad. But I have never been a fan of those style of graphics so I think they look horrible even on the SNES. Give me 2D non-digitized sprites with just as much animation and it'll look way awesome on any system.  What the Genesis and Turbo can't do is F-Zero, one of my favorite SNES games. It's so much a SNES game that it feels wrong to play the GBA versions (they screwed 'em up anyway).

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 03/24/2013, 01:29 AMNo, the Neo Geo can't do anything like Mode 7 (scaling with a perspective). And then asking the Neo Geo to rotate that? Not gonna happen. No way, no how. The Neo Geo couldn't do rotation. The Neo Geo couldn't even do Batman Returns as it is seen on the Sega CD.

I think you misunderstand what the Neo Geo can and cannot do.  The biggest issue would be the floor which would be sprites, large animated sprites, that can be manipulated.  We went over this in depth on sega-16.  The system
Can move a lot of stuff and fast.  Also if we are going to allow helper chips SMK had a chip to help with the rotation.

FINAL CONSENSUS: I am glad we all reached a final, conclusive verdict on this debate. Namely... Genesis sucks. SNES, TG-16 and XaviX are superior in all aspects.

THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING!

(https://junk.tg-16.com/images/genesis_does_brown2.jpg) (https://junk.tg-16.com/images/genesis_does_brown.jpg)

Quote from: esteban on 03/24/2013, 07:50 AMFINAL CONSENSUS: I am glad we all reached a final, conclusive verdict on this debate. Namely... Genesis sucks. SNES, TG-16 and XaviX are superior in all aspects.

THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING!

(https://junk.tg-16.com/images/genesis_does_brown2.jpg) (https://junk.tg-16.com/images/genesis_does_brown.jpg)

Well how the fuck am I supposed to argue with this?

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/24/2013, 09:03 AMWell how the fuck am I supposed to argue with this?

You shouldn't.

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/24/2013, 02:56 AM

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 03/24/2013, 01:29 AMNo, the Neo Geo can't do anything like Mode 7 (scaling with a perspective). And then asking the Neo Geo to rotate that? Not gonna happen. No way, no how. The Neo Geo couldn't do rotation. The Neo Geo couldn't even do Batman Returns as it is seen on the Sega CD.

I think you misunderstand what the Neo Geo can and cannot do.  The biggest issue would be the floor which would be sprites, large animated sprites, that can be manipulated.  We went over this in depth on sega-16.  The system
Can move a lot of stuff and fast.  Also if we are going to allow helper chips SMK had a chip to help with the rotation.

You're talking about a fmv game now.

If you at least remember the Neo Geo tech talk from sega-16 (given that none of the PCE stuff stuck), then you know that the Neo Geo can't even do the same level of parallax as SNES and Genesis, because it's stuck using huge columns of sprites for everything and, because of the deisgn, it can't render any kind of realtime effects through CPU horsepower. The Neo Geo is the best there is at doing Neo Geo style game, but it can't do anything else.

Quote from: guest on 03/24/2013, 11:06 AM

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/24/2013, 02:56 AM

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 03/24/2013, 01:29 AMNo, the Neo Geo can't do anything like Mode 7 (scaling with a perspective). And then asking the Neo Geo to rotate that? Not gonna happen. No way, no how. The Neo Geo couldn't do rotation. The Neo Geo couldn't even do Batman Returns as it is seen on the Sega CD.

I think you misunderstand what the Neo Geo can and cannot do.  The biggest issue would be the floor which would be sprites, large animated sprites, that can be manipulated.  We went over this in depth on sega-16.  The system
Can move a lot of stuff and fast.  Also if we are going to allow helper chips SMK had a chip to help with the rotation.

You're talking about a fmv game now.

If you at least remember the Neo Geo tech talk from sega-16 (given that none of the PCE stuff stuck), then you know that the Neo Geo can't even do the same level of parallax as SNES and Genesis, because it's stuck using huge columns of sprites for everything and, because of the deisgn, it can't render any kind of realtime effects through CPU horsepower. The Neo Geo is the best there is at doing Neo Geo style game, but it can't do anything else.

Again you misunderstand the Neo Geo's capabites.  It can't do parallax because it doesn't have back grounds nor does it need too.  All it does is make massive animated sprites and does so extremely well.  That alone forms a moving animated background and That alone can make almost anything needed such as shrinking and growing a sprite without pixelating it like the SNES does.  Any rotation needed would simply be animated.  Not like a fmv but a real time moving encironment at lightning speed.  It has the brute force to do so.  Riding hero is a launch turd but a more capable programmer with near a gig of cart space can do as he pleases with 2d sprites.  He'll even a bare sega genesis can do it to a lesser extent just based off its CPU speed.

I think it is YOU who is misunderstanding the Neo Geo or at least its developers. A bunch of sprites for the floor would look nothing like a true Mode 7™ graphic. Animated rotation would be awful. Recall that Mode 7™ moves at 60fps. How many Neo Geo games have distinct 60fps animation? Likely none ever. But these tiles would need to have a lot of animation at 60fps. What if the player turns slowly? Even that slow turn will need to be animated at 60fps so there'd need to be hundreds and hundreds of frames for each tile and some asshole needs to animate that. Every single part of the track will need this animation. That'd be more animation than any game has ever had. Then they'd have to program it to it doesn't look all jumbly/segmented. Good luck because Neo Geo scaling often looks segmented. Oh, and it can get blocky just like the SNES. That's a developer decision to up or downscale. The Genesis can do Mario Kart like this as well.

A true mode 7 requires additional hardware.  Just because things can get blocky doesn't mean it will.  More often then not that particular sprite will be huge and then shrunk down.  Again the neo is more then capable enough to create a series if animated sprite tires to mimic what ever you need in 2D.  The system still hasn't been maxed out yet.  It's main weakness is the arcade only setup.  It is more limited than the SNES controller especially the shoulder buttons.  The only way to power slide (which defines the kart series entirely) would be some series button mashing.  It would be ugly for sure.

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/24/2013, 12:58 PMAgain you misunderstand the Neo Geo's capabites.  It can't do parallax because it doesn't have back grounds nor does it need too.  All it does is make massive animated sprites and does so extremely well.  That alone forms a moving animated background and That alone can make almost anything needed such as shrinking and growing a sprite without pixelating it like the SNES does.  Any rotation needed would simply be animated.  Not like a fmv but a real time moving encironment at lightning speed.  It has the brute force to do so.  Riding hero is a launch turd but a more capable programmer with near a gig of cart space can do as he pleases with 2d sprites.  He'll even a bare sega genesis can do it to a lesser extent just based off its CPU speed.

I was talking about the kind of layered background scrolling that the Neo Geo can do. All of this was covered in the sega-16 discussion you referenced. The Neo Geo can only render a limited number of sprites at once and it can only do 16 pixel wide sprites (but they can be as tall as 512 pixels). Doing the types of games that the Neo Geo does quickly approaches its sprite bandwidth limits. The system was more or less maxed out bitd. Also, because of the unique hardware design, it can't use any of its "brute force" to render anything original on the fly the way that regular consoles and computers do, no matter how simple or complex. So no rotation, no Doom/Face Ball style graphics, no polygons, no wire frame. It literally can only do the kind of 2D games that its library consists of. The Genesis is the only 16-bit generation console to have much success rendering on the fly using shear brute force.

It also cannot "grow" sprites at all. The SNES can only scale up a single tile layer, so it starts perfect and then the pixels get bigger, but remains relatively proportionate. The Neo Geo can only scale down or "shrink" sprites. So it only looks perfect at the largest size, but distorts as soon as it begins shrinking, as detail is rapidly lost (unlike how the SNES simply enlarges the detail).

Neo Geo style down-scaling <---- ORIGINAL -----> SNES style up-scaling

(https://web.archive.org/web/20190511030452im_/http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/ngsng1.png)(https://web.archive.org/web/20190511030452im_/http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/ngsbase1.png)(https://web.archive.org/web/20190511030452im_/http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/ngssnes1.png)

Both the shrunken and grown images are shown at uneven integers, so you can see what the distortion looks like when it isn't blown up to 200%, 400%, etc. The Neo Geo style shrinking rapidly ruins the image, so it's no good for the kind of sprite scaling games you are suggesting. It would have to just use all animation, essentially fmv for the backgrounds, like Fast Striker does.

Here is that shrunken sprite evenly scaled back up 400% and the up-scaled sprite doubled to show the difference in distortion-

(https://web.archive.org/web/20190511030453im_/http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/ngsng1b.png)(https://web.archive.org/web/20190511030453im_/http://superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/ngssnes1a.png)

Riding hero is only doing the kind of racing background that 8-bit consoles do. It just shrinks sprites to save on space. Otherwise it's no different than Hang On for SMS. Only the SNES and later consoles can do the kind of Mode 7 that F-Zero does. Mode 7 created an entire new genre of racing gameplay. The old kind is still fun, but Mode 7 was something different and potentially deeper, just as fully 3D games are beyond Mode 7.

The Neo Geo isn't a super powerful console, it's just good at doing the one type of graphics that it can do. Compared to the Saturn and Playstation, the Neo Geo is overall on par with the PC Engine, Genesis and SNES.

Quote from: guest on 03/24/2013, 08:22 PMI was talking about the kind of layered background scrolling that the Neo Geo can do. All of this was covered in the sega-16 discussion you referenced.

Yes, indeed it was, here is a nice quote from a a member with an understanding of programming between these consoles and what they can and cannot do.

Quote from: tomaitheous;349944Yeah, Neo Geo had some impressive specs compared to the home systems. But then again, it's an arcade system.

 No BG layer, but it was a fixed overlay window. Sprites are chained to make huge single sprites (done in hardware rather than software). The whole change of sprites are scaled both X and Y. Well, scalable via shrinking. And impressive pixel bandwidth for such type of an object system (it's all raster, no blitter like the Sega arcade systems). 1536 sprite pixels per scanline. That's easily up to 3 *real* BG layers and a shit load of sprites still. A scanline interrupt can change the position of the first sprite of any chained step, giving warping effects on a sprite level (which no other 16bit home system can do, they can only do per background type effects). It has 256 16color palettes (4096 colors per screen), but it also has an alternate buffer that you can switch on any scanline. The master palette is 32k colors (but you have set a bit to get a slightly darker 32k palette for a total of 65k).

 For 3D games like Outrun or Cotton or even Galaxy Force, it would be a big step up from the SNES or Genesis. It would benefit better for the 3D chips like the SFX and SVP since you could fill and flip the result immediately, instead of the slower transfers rates of the GEN/SNES. And more colors for the frame buffer too, since layering isn't going to be a dig deal (it won't effect transfer rates and thus frame rates).

Taken right from the thread you mentioned too BTW.  I think the biggest issue is "Mode 7" meaning that is it's name like "Xerox" or any other issue where the name of a company is used as a verb to describe many other things.  Mode seven is simply, as defined by sources and Wiki "The Super NES console has eight modes, numbered from 0 to 7, for displaying background layers, the last one (background mode 7) having a single layer that can be scaled and rotated."

It only works on backgrounds.  The Neo however can work MASSIVE and I mean MASSIVE, larger then the screen if needed in multiple layers AND animated.  So is it exactly a SNES MODE 7 trick?  No, however it can be done and with better results from the Neo's power.

Here is the thread in question if you care to brush up on some history.

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?16416-What-are-the-real-Neo-Geo-capabilities/page5

Quote from: guest on 03/24/2013, 08:22 PM

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/24/2013, 12:58 PMAgain you misunderstand the Neo Geo's capabites.  It can't do parallax because it doesn't have back grounds nor does it need too.  All it does is make massive animated sprites and does so extremely well.  That alone forms a moving animated background and That alone can make almost anything needed such as shrinking and growing a sprite without pixelating it like the SNES does.  Any rotation needed would simply be animated.  Not like a fmv but a real time moving encironment at lightning speed.  It has the brute force to do so.  Riding hero is a launch turd but a more capable programmer with near a gig of cart space can do as he pleases with 2d sprites.  He'll even a bare sega genesis can do it to a lesser extent just based off its CPU speed.

I was talking about the kind of layered background scrolling that the Neo Geo can do. All of this was covered in the sega-16 discussion you referenced. The Neo Geo can only render a limited number of sprites at once and it can only do 16 pixel wide sprites (but they can be as tall as 512 pixels). Doing the types of games that the Neo Geo does quickly approaches its sprite bandwidth limits. The system was more or less maxed out bitd. Also, because of the unique hardware design, it can't use any of its "brute force" to render anything original on the fly the way that regular consoles and computers do, no matter how simple or complex. So no rotation, no Doom/Face Ball style graphics, no polygons, no wire frame. It literally can only do the kind of 2D games that its library consists of. The Genesis is the only 16-bit generation console to have much success rendering on the fly using shear brute force.

It also cannot "grow" sprites at all. The SNES can only scale up a single tile layer, so it starts perfect and then the pixels get bigger, but remains relatively proportionate. The Neo Geo can only scale down or "shrink" sprites. So it only looks perfect at the largest size, but distorts as soon as it begins shrinking, as detail is rapidly lost (unlike how the SNES simply enlarges the detail).

Neo Geo style down-scaling <---- ORIGINAL -----> SNES style up-scaling



Both the shrunken and grown images are shown at uneven integers, so you can see what the distortion looks like when it isn't blown up to 200%, 400%, etc. The Neo Geo style shrinking rapidly ruins the image, so it's no good for the kind of sprite scaling games you are suggesting. It would have to just use all animation, essentially fmv for the backgrounds, like Fast Striker does.

Here is that shrunken sprite evenly scaled back up 400% and the up-scaled sprite doubled to show the difference in distortion-



Riding hero is only doing the kind of racing background that 8-bit consoles do. It just shrinks sprites to save on space. Otherwise it's no different than Hang On for SMS. Only the SNES and later consoles can do the kind of Mode 7 that F-Zero does. Mode 7 created an entire new genre of racing gameplay. The old kind is still fun, but Mode 7 was something different and potentially deeper, just as fully 3D games are beyond Mode 7.

The Neo Geo isn't a super powerful console, it's just good at doing the one type of graphics that it can do. Compared to the Saturn and Playstation, the Neo Geo is overall on par with the PC Engine, Genesis and SNES.

A lot of what you said was proven wrong in discussion wrong ago, namely being maxed out on sprites and the "Brute Force" effect which is indeed possible and has been done so the discussion is moot.  I think you were not aware of the sprite chaining effect and how fast it is and how much room it can cover.  With almost limitless capacity and instant access to ROM space it could be done and Very well.  However if you limit the ROM to say 4MB or 8MB, problems do indeed occur and the "Brute Force" effect is limited so a chip like the SNES needed in addition to it's hardware to run the game may be in order.

I understand the Neo Doesn't grow sprites but it does indeed shrink a HIGH quality image and then can grow it back up again.  Benefits of a Massive ROM.  The SNES brings up a much lower quality image and the pixels get as big as your head.


Riding Hero for a lack of a better word is Dog Shit.  That said it is more of a Racing RPG with a lot of elements to save and designed as a quarter muncher.  Even for 1990-1991 it was a bad looking game but has a lot of elements below the surface.  The cart also has a Head Phone Jack port that allows you to link two games together to play two player, this is on both the home and arcade carts.

That said there is a lot more the Neo can do that you are not away of, it does so in it's own style and grace.

Evo apparently has his head in the sand and/or is mildly retarded, so I won't bother responding to his drivel.  [-(

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/23/2013, 11:49 PMAnd when I say "can't" I mean. Never ever ever will. Tech demos and stats are fucking useless...

And this is why you come off sounding like a tool.  It serves absolutely no purpose to say system 'x' can't do game 'y', when you really mean game 'y' is only on system 'x'.  No fucking shit; way to state the obvious.

SNES can't do Timeball!

SNES can downscale and upscale (but downscaling takes more memory since the original object must be larger).

As for the Neo Geo ONLY being able to downscale, that's probably true, but the title screen of Alpha Mission 2 is pretty block-tastic.

Quote from: guest on 03/25/2013, 01:00 PMEvo apparently has his head in the sand and/or is mildly retarded, so I won't bother responding to his drivel.  [-(

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/23/2013, 11:49 PMAnd when I say "can't" I mean. Never ever ever will. Tech demos and stats are fucking useless...

And this is why you come off sounding like a tool.  It serves absolutely no purpose to say system 'x' can't do game 'y', when you really mean game 'y' is only on system 'x'.  No fucking shit; way to state the obvious.

SNES can't do Timeball!

No need for being rude if someone does not agree with you, however I think we have thoroughly hijacked this thread.  That said let's refrain and if you wish to continue via PM or create a dedicated thread please let me know.

FYI looking at timeball.  No idea this existed.

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/25/2013, 01:17 PMNo need for being rude if someone does not agree with you, however I think we have thoroughly hijacked this thread.  That said let's refrain and if you wish to continue via PM or create a dedicated thread please let me know.

FYI looking at timeball.  No idea this existed.

(https://junk.tg-16.com/images/Timeball_is_Blodia_Believe.png)

(https://junk.tg-16.com/images/timeball.jpg)

(https://junk.tg-16.com/images/Timeball_is_Blodia_Believe.png)

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 03/25/2013, 01:17 PMSNES can downscale and upscale (but downscaling takes more memory since the original object must be larger).

As for the Neo Geo ONLY being able to downscale, that's probably true, but the title screen of Alpha Mission 2 is pretty block-tastic.

Up until recent years I believed that the SNES scaled up and down, until I read comments saying otherwise. It's cool to learn that it really can go both ways. No matter what the technical limitations are, SNES Mode 7 can do smooth 3D like environments. The most the Neo Geo could do is super scaler style games. Still cool, but very dfferent.

QuoteTaken right from the thread you mentioned too BTW.  I think the biggest issue is "Mode 7" meaning that is it's name like "Xerox" or any other issue where the name of a company is used as a verb to describe many other things.  Mode seven is simply, as defined by sources and Wiki "The Super NES console has eight modes, numbered from 0 to 7, for displaying background layers, the last one (background mode 7) having a single layer that can be scaled and rotated."

It only works on backgrounds.  The Neo however can work MASSIVE and I mean MASSIVE, larger then the screen if needed in multiple layers AND animated.  So is it exactly a SNES MODE 7 trick?  No, however it can be done and with better results from the Neo's power.

Here is the thread in question if you care to brush up on some history.

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?16416-What-are-the-real-Neo-Geo-capabilities/page5

When I talked about discussions that broke down how and why the Neo Geo couldn't do any kind of rendering on the fly, I wasn't referring to older discussions which predate that revelation. :roll:

Here is a relevant thread if you care to brush up on some history.

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?17301-How-capable-would-the-Neo-Geo-MVS-AES-be-in-3D-polygon-graphics



After 3 pages of discussing why the Neo Geo can't render original graphics, this nugget pops up-

Quote from: Kamahl;369667

Quote from: evilevoix;369663http://youtu.be/d50YE00hO98

Couldn't you cheat a little?  Look at the game above, how about a rendered car and then a lot of frames of animation for the track?

Congratulations, you've just made an FMV game lool. Not a 3D game.

All of the possible work-arounds involved first creating a new type of cart with special ram to counter the Neo Geo's design flaw and then figure out a way to actually get that to work with the hardware...

You continued to propose the same stuff that you're trying to push here (I guess you thought that this forum lacks tech/programming experts). After your fmv-like suggestions were shot down, you asked about using a SFX2 style chip and yes it might work in theory... if you add it to that special cart you'd have to create first... but only after you figure out a way to get the Neo Geo hardware to interface correctly with the special memory on the special cart. So you can stick a good chunk of whole new console inside of a Neo Geo cart... and if it turns out that it is possible to actually get the Neo Geo hardware to make use of it... then you might be able to render something original. But otherwise, as I said, the Neo Geo can't do polygons and other stuff, even though the PCE, Genesis & SNES can.

Quote from: Kamahl;370593

Quote from: evilevoix;370583What makes the MD superior to 3D type games over the Neo Geo?  The Neo couldn’t pull off something like the RESQ bonus stage?

It can but only with a special cart, the VDP reads from ROM directly so for the CPU to be able to render in software, you'd need to have some RAM on cart that the VDP would read thinking it was ROM.
I also thought it would be better at it then the MD (better processor, only having to worry about splitting the graphics horizontally..., taking advantage of the shrinking capabilities) but that's not the case.

Lol, so he's debatting the same shit over here again, as he already did on Sega-16, and on which his ignorant blubbering was already quashed?

I suggest evilevoix to insert a full SFC into a Neo Geo cart

Quote from: esteban on 03/25/2013, 01:49 PM(https://junk.tg-16.com/images/Timeball_is_Blodia_Believe.png)

(https://junk.tg-16.com/images/timeball.jpg)

(https://junk.tg-16.com/images/Timeball_is_Blodia_Believe.png)

For some reason, this makes absolute sense to me.  In fact I think I was about bout to post the very same response.

I have one question regarding the NGs minus scaling ability (since I'm not one of those self-proclaimed experts). If the NG only can shrink a sprite from its original size to small and back again to original (like in Aof, Samo etc.), why does the cars etc. in riding hero getting all pixelated when they approaching near to the screen? Why not using the most near as the original size, so that it can't get pixelated in the first place? How can it even get pixlated (like segas super scaler, or SFC stuff), when the NG isn't capable of scale up stuff?

Quote from: guest on 03/25/2013, 07:35 PMWhen I talked about discussions that broke down how and why the Neo Geo couldn't do any kind of rendering on the fly, I wasn't referring to older discussions which predate that revelation. :roll:
Here is a relevant thread if you care to brush up on some history.
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?17301-How-capable-would-the-Neo-Geo-MVS-AES-be-in-3D-polygon-graphics



After 3 pages of discussing why the Neo Geo can't render original graphics, this nugget pops up-

Quote from: Kamahl;369667

Quote from: evilevoix;369663http://youtu.be/d50YE00hO98

Couldn't you cheat a little?  Look at the game above, how about a rendered car and then a lot of frames of animation for the track?

Congratulations, you've just made an FMV game lool. Not a 3D game.

All of the possible work-arounds involved first creating a new type of cart with special ram to counter the Neo Geo's design flaw and then figure out a way to actually get that to work with the hardware...

You continued to propose the same stuff that you're trying to push here (I guess you thought that this forum lacks tech/programming experts). After your fmv-like suggestions were shot down, you asked about using a SFX2 style chip and yes it might work in theory... if you add it to that special cart you'd have to create first... but only after you figure out a way to get the Neo Geo hardware to interface correctly with the special memory on the special cart. So you can stick a good chunk of whole new console inside of a Neo Geo cart... and if it turns out that it is possible to actually get the Neo Geo hardware to make use of it... then you might be able to render something original. But otherwise, as I said, the Neo Geo can't do polygons and other stuff, even though the PCE, Genesis & SNES can.

Quote from: Kamahl;370593

Quote from: evilevoix;370583What makes the MD superior to 3D type games over the Neo Geo?  The Neo couldn't pull off something like the RESQ bonus stage?

It can but only with a special cart, the VDP reads from ROM directly so for the CPU to be able to render in software, you'd need to have some RAM on cart that the VDP would read thinking it was ROM.
I also thought it would be better at it then the MD (better processor, only having to worry about splitting the graphics horizontally..., taking advantage of the shrinking capabilities) but that's not the case.

The threads and posts I have followed and the hardware I have studied have shown the Neo can indeed render polygons if needed.  It can also do a game like Mario Kart if needed.  Some camps agree on this some camps do not.  That said I will have to assume you just didn't read my post from other members and programmers.  Neither of us are experts her not have we published a game for these systems.

That said you have to follow what the hardware is made of, it's speed, and what it can do REALISTICALLY.  All the suggestions I have made were made there on Sega-16 and some were agreed upon such as minor polygon games in my previous post. We are also ignoring that the SNES required special chips to do mode 7, why is that constantly being ignored?

That said and again the Neo could do a Mode 7 style effect if needed.  In fact I'll show you a lesser Hardware configuration (Megadrive) doing so.

http://youtu.be/iH_2VXjkS7g

The above is Pier Solar, using a stock Sega genesis (NO SEGA CD HERE) to scale and rotate on the fly using the tried and true Motorola 6800 series chip.  The SNES requires additional hardware to do this.  

Again same quote from the same member you quoted to keep this apples to apples.

Quote from: Kamahl;350512All the standard MegaDrive/SNES/PCE stuff can be done and better, on rails 3D games with sprites (like Soulstar) are easy too.
The free roaming stages aren't though, at least not without a lot of prerendered animation or other strange tricks to get it done.
Same goes for mode 7 racers, although something like batman and robin for the Sega CD can probably be done (and that style is much better IMO).
3D games (like starfox) can be done as well in the same way as the 3D stages in ResQ, but with more polygons.
Wolfenstein 3D might be possible too.

Just keep ignoring this?  IDK?
Again, it's what you make the system do and what your market is.  The Neo Go has a joy stick and 4 buttons, by far its greatest limiting factor.  A Mario Kart style game would be weird based upon the control scheme so it stays to its arcade roots.

Oh and if you want to program 3D on the Neo Geo, it can be done again with TRICKS, always a way.

http://youtu.be/lMQkIor8hyI&feature=player_embedded
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=59253
Always remember there is someone smarter then you and when you resort to name calling and being dismissive it's because you ran out of words to express yourself properly. [-X

That said you argue the Neo needs RAM to write the grafx to, Mode 7 style or polygons which the Neo Geo Motorola is MORE than capable of doing beyond any 16 bit console of the day, yet some developers just, oh what's that word I liked to use....BRUTE FORCE, that's it.  Just tricks and pixels is all it is.

STATUS: ... ... ...

(https://junk.tg-16.com/images/genesis_does_brown3.jpg) (https://junk.tg-16.com/images/genesis_does_brown.jpg)

YOU STILL AIN'T BOUGHT A SEGA CD?

(http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/HCQRcinZYH8/mqdefault.jpg)

Quote from: Tatsujin on 03/25/2013, 11:24 PMI have one question regarding the NGs minus scaling ability (since I'm not one of those self-proclaimed experts). If the NG only can shrink a sprite from its original size to small and back again to original (like in Aof, Samo etc.), why does the cars etc. in riding hero getting all pixelated when they approaching near to the screen? Why not using the most near as the original size, so that it can't get pixelated in the first place? How can it even get pixlated (like segas super scaler, or SFC stuff), when the NG isn't capable of scale up stuff?

wears teh experts? :)

Quote from: jeffhlewis on 03/27/2013, 12:19 AM(http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/HCQRcinZYH8/mqdefault.jpg)

This man is my hero. So much 'tude.

I'm new to the Neo-Geo debate, but if the VDP only sees memory that is read-only and is not accessible by the CPU, then obviously software rendering of anything is out the window. Unless you use...as everyone has said...a special cart that makes the memory writable and copies in whatever the CPU has drawn.

The Oxygene cube video is neat, but I'd be surprised if there was much more you could get out of that technique than what they're showing.

Also:

QuoteWe are also ignoring that the SNES required special chips to do mode 7, why is that constantly being ignored?

What? Not in the cartridge, it didn't. Mario Kart used a DSP chip, but F-Zero used nothing.

Quote from: Tatsujin on 03/27/2013, 12:44 AM

Quote from: Tatsujin on 03/25/2013, 11:24 PMI have one question regarding the NGs minus scaling ability (since I'm not one of those self-proclaimed experts). If the NG only can shrink a sprite from its original size to small and back again to original (like in Aof, Samo etc.), why does the cars etc. in riding hero getting all pixelated when they approaching near to the screen? Why not using the most near as the original size, so that it can't get pixelated in the first place? How can it even get pixlated (like segas super scaler, or SFC stuff), when the NG isn't capable of scale up stuff?

wears teh experts? :)

Unfortunately, the SNES kicked off the pixelation-as-an-aesthetic craze, which carried over through the 32-bit generation. Just as Neo Geo games succumbed to the pre-rendered cgi craze, any other effects you see that are outside its abilities are just pre-rendered animation, as they are on other hardware that don't support them. To this day, lots of people prefer shrinking/growing (and other misc) effects to be pixelated instead of looking like frames of artwork.

Quote from: esteban on 03/26/2013, 11:53 PMSTATUS: ... ... ...

(https://junk.tg-16.com/images/genesis_does_brown3.jpg) (https://junk.tg-16.com/images/genesis_does_brown.jpg)

I can't fight all these battles at once, you're killing me smalls..... [-(

Quote from: SamIAm on 03/27/2013, 10:57 AMI'm new to the Neo-Geo debate, but if the VDP only sees memory that is read-only and is not accessible by the CPU, then obviously software rendering of anything is out the window. Unless you use...as everyone has said...a special cart that makes the memory writable and copies in whatever the CPU has drawn.

The Oxygene cube video is neat, but I'd be surprised if there was much more you could get out of that technique than what they're showing.

Also:

QuoteWe are also ignoring that the SNES required special chips to do mode 7, why is that constantly being ignored?

What? Not in the cartridge, it didn't. Mario Kart used a DSP chip, but F-Zero used nothing.

Systems can't do things until you make them do things.  That Tech demo cube thingy is more of a proof of concept versus what is being done.  Doing 3D on a Neo Geo is kinda weird as it was designed as a 2D power house.  That said the M6800 is more than capable if tapped properly.

Can the Neo Geo do exactly mode 7 grafx?  probably not but it can do something  similar enough and it would be faster, higher resolution, and more color.

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/27/2013, 12:30 PM

Quote from: esteban on 03/26/2013, 11:53 PMSTATUS: ... ... ...

I can't fight all these battles at once, you're killing me smalls..... [-(

I'm just teasing you (https://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcgb.gif). Don't worry about me. I love Genesis/MegaDrive.

SNES games are more colorful than Neo Geo games. Neo Geo games look good, but they are still dither-city.

i always considered the dither stlye as an art style of neo games, since it looked much different to f.e. mega drive dither style, which existed only for one reason to illusionat more on-screen colors which weren't available in the first place.

snes games are just more poppy, but never much colored as neo games.

take last resort f.e., quite some dithered stuff, but in terms of colors it looks 10 times better than anything on the snes ever.

Quote from: Tatsujin on 03/28/2013, 03:09 PMi always considered the dither stlye as an art style of neo games, since it looked much different to f.e. mega drive dither style, which existed only for one reason to illusionat more on-screen colors which weren't available in the first place.

snes games are just more poppy, but never much colored as neo games.

take last resort f.e., quite some dithered stuff, but in terms of colors it looks 10 times better than anything on the snes ever.

Absolutely! I, too, think of dithering as an artistic technique (not merely a technical method for overcoming palette constraints).

Dithering, cross-hatching, engraving, wood-cutting, whittling, etc.

I don't mind dithering, usually. It's like all artforms: the hate/love is determined by the execution of the technique.

DITHERING + 2D > 3D + foggy mist effects

Final Fight CD
Sonic CD

So wait... dithering is shit on the Genesis but absolutely fantastic on the Neo Geo? Only on the PCEFX forums :rolleyes:

The Neo does color dithering just like the Genesis. Look at the skies.  Never are there smooth gradients like the SNES. NEVER. Instead, every other layer is dithered. Art style?  Suuuuuuure. That looks waaay better than a smooth gradient (which apparently the Neo Geo cannot do).

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 03/28/2013, 05:27 PMSo wait... dithering is shit on the Genesis but absolutely fantastic on the Neo Geo? Only on the PCEFX forums :rolleyes:

The Neo does color dithering just like the Genesis. Look at the skies.  Never are there smooth gradients like the SNES. NEVER. Instead, every other layer is dithered. Art style?  Suuuuuuure. That looks waaay better than a smooth gradient (which apparently the Neo Geo cannot do).

can't do mode 7 either.

Certainly not as well as the SNES but it might be interesting to see what it could do in the software. Pier Solar on the Genesis has a Mode 7 (all scaling and rotation is Mode 7, the internet says so) but it's in a small window and rather blocky.

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 03/28/2013, 07:59 PMCertainly not as well as the SNES but it might be interesting to see what it could do in the software. Pier Solar on the Genesis has a Mode 7 (all scaling and rotation is Mode 7, the internet says so) but it's in a small window and rather blocky.

Oh, HA, I was talking about NG.

Mode 7 is a SNES hardware trick that has scaling and rotation.  This is also facilitated by the most part on the SNES by additional helper chips that in effect are additional hardware.  The snes needs this due to a weak 16-processor that couldn't possible run it.  The MEGADRIVE cannot do mode 7 however the M6800 can more than do it via hardware computation.  The neo geo more so as it has the same processor and its almost twice as fast.  It would need to do it with large animated sprites however or tricks beyond our understanding like that 3D cube I posted.  It's all up to the programmer.

...oh god, not more of this.
I'm sorry.  ](*,)

You heard it here, folks. The SNES can't do mode-7 effects, but the Genesis can.

Here's a video of Doom (https://youtu.be/3v7cFGneuaw) running on the ZX Spectrum. Therefore all your arguments are invalid.

Quote from: galam on 03/28/2013, 08:12 PMOh, HA, I was talking about NG.

So was I. I'm saying if the Genesis can do it in the software the NG might be able to kind of do it in a small window at a low frame rate.

Quote from: galam on 03/28/2013, 10:41 PM...oh god, not more of this.
I'm sorry.  ](*,)

You have a lot of mud to sling but no substance, embarrassing actually I figured with such anger would at least come a point #-o

Quote from: SamIAm on 03/29/2013, 04:27 AMYou heard it here, folks. The SNES can't do mode-7 effects, but the Genesis can.

You misunderstood.  The SNES has specific hardware in the unit itself and in a lot of carts with additional hardware chips to do mode 7.  Mode 7 only applies to the SNES as it's a Nintendo term, so saying any other system can't do mode 7 is 100% accurate as only a SNES has mode 7 so duh.  That said the Megadrive can do a version of the Mode 7 trick it via it's CPU doing the math.  No special chips or hardware, just from the processor itself.  It's in a couple of games and or course prominently in Pier Solar so that's that.

Quote from: guest on 03/29/2013, 06:33 AMHere's a video of Doom (https://youtu.be/3v7cFGneuaw) running on the ZX Spectrum. Therefore all your arguments are invalid.

That is so awesome!  Thanks for sharing hahaha!


BTW what is this thread about again?

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/29/2013, 01:31 PM

Quote from: galam on 03/28/2013, 10:41 PM...oh god, not more of this.
I'm sorry.  ](*,)

You have a lot of mud to sling but no substance, embarrassing actually I figured with such anger would at least come a point #-o

Oh, I'm far from angry.  But, you're starting to borderline on propaganda.

Pce can do faceballer, pce can do the everything.

Quote from: geise on 03/29/2013, 06:13 PM

Quote from: guest on 03/29/2013, 06:33 AMHere's a video of Doom (https://youtu.be/3v7cFGneuaw) running on the ZX Spectrum. Therefore all your arguments are invalid.

That is so awesome!  Thanks for sharing hahaha!


BTW what is this thread about again?

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/29/2013, 01:31 PM

Quote from: galam on 03/28/2013, 10:41 PM...oh god, not more of this.
I'm sorry.  ](*,)

You have a lot of mud to sling but no substance, embarrassing actually I figured with such anger would at least come a point #-o

Quote from: SamIAm on 03/29/2013, 04:27 AMYou heard it here, folks. The SNES can't do mode-7 effects, but the Genesis can.

You misunderstood.  The SNES has specific hardware in the unit itself and in a lot of carts with additional hardware chips to do mode 7.  Mode 7 only applies to the SNES as it's a Nintendo term, so saying any other system can't do mode 7 is 100% accurate as only a SNES has mode 7 so duh.  That said the Megadrive can do a version of the Mode 7 trick it via it's CPU doing the math.  No special chips or hardware, just from the processor itself.  It's in a couple of games and or course prominently in Pier Solar so that's that.

Only some SNES games use chips on cart to help in various ways. The SNES can do 60fps 3D-like floor effects without any extra "cheater" chips. F-Zero is a good example. It's true that pretty much any kind of effect can be calculated by a game console cpu and rendered in-game. But the Neo Geo is the only console that I know of that can't.

SNES, Genesis & PCE all have games featuring realtime polygons or 3D corridor effects.

Neo Geo literally cannot do realtime polygons, 3D corridor or any other cpu driven/software effects.

Quote from: galam on 03/29/2013, 09:13 PMOh, I'm far from angry.  But, you're starting to borderline on propaganda.

I have to build my army......They will be loyal and magnificent.

Quote from: guest on 03/30/2013, 12:37 AM

Quote from: geise on 03/29/2013, 06:13 PM

Quote from: guest on 03/29/2013, 06:33 AMHere's a video of Doom (https://youtu.be/3v7cFGneuaw) running on the ZX Spectrum. Therefore all your arguments are invalid.

That is so awesome!  Thanks for sharing hahaha!


BTW what is this thread about again?

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/29/2013, 01:31 PM

Quote from: galam on 03/28/2013, 10:41 PM...oh god, not more of this.
I'm sorry.  ](*,)

You have a lot of mud to sling but no substance, embarrassing actually I figured with such anger would at least come a point #-o

Quote from: SamIAm on 03/29/2013, 04:27 AMYou heard it here, folks. The SNES can't do mode-7 effects, but the Genesis can.

You misunderstood.  The SNES has specific hardware in the unit itself and in a lot of carts with additional hardware chips to do mode 7.  Mode 7 only applies to the SNES as it's a Nintendo term, so saying any other system can't do mode 7 is 100% accurate as only a SNES has mode 7 so duh.  That said the Megadrive can do a version of the Mode 7 trick it via it's CPU doing the math.  No special chips or hardware, just from the processor itself.  It's in a couple of games and or course prominently in Pier Solar so that's that.

Only some SNES games use chips on cart to help in various ways. The SNES can do 60fps 3D-like floor effects without any extra "cheater" chips. F-Zero is a good example. It's true that pretty much any kind of effect can be calculated by a game console cpu and rendered in-game. But the Neo Geo is the only console that I know of that can't.

SNES, Genesis & PCE all have games featuring realtime polygons or 3D corridor effects.

Neo Geo literally cannot do realtime polygons, 3D corridor or any other cpu driven/software effects.

The Neo Geo can do what ever you tell it to do within limits (not gona program Bio Shock on it).

With clever tricks and programming you can make it do 3D and quite well.

Oh and if you want to program 3D on the Neo Geo, it can be done again with TRICKS, always a way.

http://youtu.be/lMQkIor8hyI&feature=player_embedded
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=59253

I am sure it can do a style of the Mode 7 trick using massive sprites and animation.

That said it would be a ton easier to do with a simple add-on chip for the system to draw to, if that were done then all bets are off and the Neo would run with it.


That said it is a mostly a 2D power house, and just animates and scales what it needs to do.

That "3D" demo is a single animated sprite being scaled.

I don't think that you understand the meaning of the word "trick". The word you should be using is "animation".

You could prerender a fixed angle Mode 7 style floor that only moves forward like Fast Striker's cgi background... or you could have a map screen where you sekect a destination and the Mode 7/cgi floor chsnges angles as it takes the exact same path every time. But as I said earlier and you were told in the sega-16 thread, all that any of this ir anything else the Neo Geo can simulate amounts to fmv.

Sweet Jesus on a popsicle stick why are all "demos" exactly the same? There's always slow text bouncing around, tons of arpeggio, some stupid effect that's not impressive at all, lots of colors flashing. Wait... is that video of a Sega Master System demo? Because it sure looked and especially sounded like it.

Quote from: guest on 03/30/2013, 11:10 AMThat "3D" demo is a single animated sprite being scaled.

I don't think that you understand the meaning of the word "trick". The word you should be using is "animation".

You could prerender a fixed angle Mode 7 style floor that only moves forward like Fast Striker's cgi background... or you could have a map screen where you sekect a destination and the Mode 7/cgi floor chsnges angles as it takes the exact same path every time. But as I said earlier and you were told in the sega-16 thread, all that any of this ir anything else the Neo Geo can simulate amounts to fmv.

How do you know it's an animated sprite being scaled?


Tricks are a term used when you make a system do what it wasn't designed to do.  The Neo Geo NEVER had anything 3D imagined for it.  It had 2D muscle that still flexes impressively to this day.  The M6800 it has now is more than powerful enough to do 3D if asked properly and again can scale and animate what it needs to to make a "mode 7ish style" similar to what the Mega Drive can do. 

People forget the neo can do a maximum of 380 sprites on screen they can range in size from 1×2 to:16×512.  They are scalable and can be animated to do whatever is needed in real time.


That said it would be much easier to add a chip for the Neo to write to like the SNES did with a huge swath of their library.

Title    Chip    Year    Developer    Publisher
Mega Man X2 / Rockman X2    CX4    1994    Capcom    Capcom (NA) (JP) (EU)
Mega Man X3 / Rockman X3    CX4    1995    Capcom, Minakuchi Engineering    Capcom (NA) (JP)
Armored Trooper Votoms: The Battling Road    DSP-1    1993    Genki    Takara (JP)
Bike Daisuki! Hashiriya Kon - Rider's Spirits    DSP-1    1994    Genki    NCS (JP)
Final Stretch    DSP-1    1993    Genki    LOZC (JP)
Lock On / Super Air Diver    DSP-1    1993    Copya System    Vic Tokai
Michael Andretti's Indy Car Challenge    DSP-1    1994    Genki    Bullet Proof Software (NA) (JP)
Pilotwings    DSP-1    1991    Nintendo EAD    Nintendo (NA) (JP) (EU)
Shutokō Battle '94: Keichii Tsuchiya Drift King    DSP-1    1994    Genki    Bullet-Proof Software (JP)
Shutokō Battle 2: Drift King Keichii Tsuchiya & Masaaki Bandoh    DSP-1    1995    Genki    Bullet-Proof Software (JP)
Suzuka 8 Hours    DSP-1    1993    Arc System Works    Namco (NA) (JP)
Super Air Diver 2    DSP-1    1995    Copya System    Asmik (JP)
Super Bases Loaded 2 / Super 3D Baseball    DSP-1    1993    TOSE    Jaleco (NA) (JP)
Super F1 Circus Gaiden    DSP-1    1995       Nichibutsu (JP)
Battle Racers    DSP-1    1995    Banpresto    Banpresto (JP)
Korean League    DSP-1    1993    Hyundai    Jaleco (K)
Super Mario Kart    DSP-1/1B    1992    Nintendo EAD    Nintendo (NA) (JP) (EU)
Ace o Nerae! 3D Tennis    DSP-1A    1993    Telenet Japan    Telenet Japan (JP)
Ballz 3D    DSP-1B    1994    PF Magic    Accolade (NA)
Dungeon Master    DSP-2    1992    FTL Games    JVC Victor (NA) (JP) (EU)
SD Gundam GX    DSP-3    1994    BEC    Bandai (JP)
Top Gear 3000    DSP-4    1995    Gremlin Interactive    Kemco (NA) (JP) (EU)
Metal Combat: Falcon's Revenge    OBC-1    1993    Intelligent Systems    Nintendo
Daisenryaku Expert WWII: War in Europe    SA1    1996    SystemSoft Alpha    ASCII Corporation (JP)
Derby Jockey 2    SA1    1995    Graphic Research    Asmik
Dragon Ball Z: Hyper Dimension    SA1    1996    TOSE    Bandai (JP) (EU)
Habu Meijin no Omoshiro Shōgi    SA1       Access    Tomy (JP)
Itoi Shigesato no Bass Tsuri No. 1    SA1    1997    Dice, HAL Laboratory    Nintendo (JP)
J.League '96 Dream Stadium    SA1    1996       Hudson Soft (JP)
Jikkyou Oshaberi Parodius    SA1    1995    Konami    Konami (JP)
Jumpin' Derby    SA1    1996    KID    Naxat Soft (JP)
Kakinoki Shogi    SA1    1995    Sakata SAS    ASCII Corporation (JP)
Kirby Super Star    SA1    1996    HAL Laboratory    Nintendo (NA) (JP) (EU)
Kirby's Dream Land 3    SA1    1997    HAL Laboratory    Nintendo (NA) (JP)
Marvelous: Mouhitotsu no Takarajima    SA1    1996    Nintendo R&D2    Nintendo (JP)
Masters New: Haruka Naru Augusta 3    SA1    1995    T&E Soft    T&E Soft (JP)
Super Robot Taisen Gaiden: Masō Kishin - The Lord Of Elemental    SA1    1996    Winkysoft    Banpresto (JP)
Mini 4WD Shining Scorpion Let's & Go!!    SA1    1996    KID    ASCII Corporation (JP)
Pebble Beach no Hotou: New Tournament Edition    SA1    1996    T&E Soft    T&E Soft (JP)
PGA European Tour    SA1    1996    Halestorm    THQ / Black Pearl Software
PGA Tour 96    SA1    1995    Black Pearl Software    Electronic Arts
Power Rangers Zeo: Battle Racers    SA1    1996    Natsume    Bandai
SD F-1 Grand Prix    SA1    1995    Video System    Video System (JP)
SD Gundam G NEXT    SA1    1995    Japan Art Media    Bandai (JP)
Shin Shogi Club    SA1    1995       Hect (JP)
Shogi Saikyou    SA1    1995       Magical Company (JP)
Shogi Saikyou 2    SA1    1996       Magical Company (JP)
Super Bomberman Panic Bomber World    SA1    1995    Hudson Soft    Hudson Soft (JP)
Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars    SA1    1996    Square    Nintendo (NA) (JP)
Star Ocean    S-DD1    1996    tri-Ace    Enix (JP)
Street Fighter Alpha 2 / Street Fighter Zero 2    S-DD1    1996    Capcom    Capcom (NA) (JP) (EU)
Dai Kaiju Monogatari 2    S-RTC    1996    AIM, Birthday    Hudson Soft (JP)
Far East of Eden Zero    SPC7110    1995    Red Company    Hudson Soft (JP)
Momotaro Dentetsu Happy    SPC7110    1996    Make Software    Hudson Soft (JP)
Super Power League 4    SPC7110    1996    Now Production    Hudson Soft (JP)
F1 ROC II: Race of Champions / Exhaust Heat II    ST010    1993    SETA Corporation    SETA Corporation (NA) (JP)
Hayazashi Nidan Morita Shogi    ST011    1993    Random House    SETA Corporation (JP)
Hayazashi Nidan Morita Shogi 2    ST018    1995    Random House    SETA Corporation (JP)
Star Fox / Starwing    Super FX GSU-1    1993    Nintendo EAD, Argonaut    Nintendo (NA) (JP) (EU)
Stunt Race FX / Wild Trax    Super FX GSU-1    1994    Nintendo EAD, Argonaut    Nintendo (NA) (JP) (EU)
Vortex    Super FX GSU-1    1994    Argonaut Games    Electro Brain (NA), Pack-In-Video (JP)
Dirt Racer    Super FX GSU-1    1994    MotiveTime    Elite Systems (EU)
Dirt Trax FX    Super FX GSU-1    1995    Sculptured Software    Acclaim Entertainment (NA)
Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island    Super FX GSU-2    1995    Nintendo EAD    Nintendo (NA) (JP) (EU)
Doom    Super FX GSU-2    1996    Sculptured Software    Williams (NA), Imagineer (JP), Ocean (EU)
Winter Gold / FX Skiing    Super FX GSU-2    1997    Funcom    Nintendo (NA) (EU)
Star Fox 2    Super FX GSU-2    cancelled    Nintendo EAD    Nintendo
FX Fighter    Super FX GSU-2    cancelled    Argonaut Games    GTE Entertainment (NA) (EU)
Comanche    Super FX GSU-2    cancelled    Nova Logic    Nova Logic (NA)
Powerslide    Super FX GSU-2    cancelled    Elite Systems    Elite Systems (EU)
Super Mario FX    Super FX GSU-2    cancelled    Nintendo EAD    Nintendo

Are you retarded?

Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/30/2013, 02:59 PMThat said it would be much easier to add a chip for the Neo to write to like the SNES did with a huge swath of their library.

Not as easy as just animating it traditionally regardless of how much ROM it ate up, evidently.

Again, trying to write the ERA for consoles is fucking stupid. They are all different and this is awesome. If the Neo could do all those SNES tricks then that's EXACTLY what developers would have done with it since that stuff was all the rage at the time. Thankfully Neo soft development went in a different direction and we got some cool amazing and unique stuff.

I still don't think you understand the consequences of the Neo Geo's CPU and VDP not sharing any RAM.

I think that demo actually builds the cube out of tiny sprites. That's the impression that I got reading the bouncing text, anyway. But even if that's the case, chances are that virtually all of the system's sprite bandwidth and a great deal of its CPU power are being soaked up just trying to build that one simple cube.

QuoteOh and if you want to program 3D on the Neo Geo, it can be done again with TRICKS, always a way.

No there is not. There is sometimes a way, and in this case the prospects for the Neo Geo doing any kind of graphics processing that is directly assisted by the CPU is extremely bleak. It doesn't matter how powerful the CPU is if it and the VDP can't see each other.

Who the hell wants crappy "I'm barely capable of this" polygons anyway when you can have an easily animated 2D Earthquake?

(https://www.fightersgeneration.com/characters/snk-earthquake.gif)

I don't think Stunt Race FX caused any envy in the Neo scene...did it?

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/30/2013, 10:34 PMWho the hell wants crappy "I'm barely capable of this" polygons anyway when you can have an easily animated 2D Earthquake?

(https://www.fightersgeneration.com/characters/snk-earthquake.gif)

I don't think Stunt Race FX caused any envy in the Neo scene...did it?

Word

lol, I think that guy tries to repeat history in this thread for the 3rd time already :lol:

Quote from: SamIAm on 03/30/2013, 10:28 PMI still don't think you understand the consequences of the Neo Geo's CPU and VDP not sharing any RAM.

I think that demo actually builds the cube out of tiny sprites. That's the impression that I got reading the bouncing text, anyway. But even if that's the case, chances are that virtually all of the system's sprite bandwidth and a great deal of its CPU power are being soaked up just trying to build that one simple cube.

QuoteOh and if you want to program 3D on the Neo Geo, it can be done again with TRICKS, always a way.

No there is not. There is sometimes a way, and in this case the prospects for the Neo Geo doing any kind of graphics processing that is directly assisted by the CPU is extremely bleak. It doesn't matter how powerful the CPU is if it and the VDP can't see each other.

If the CPU could see the VDP then the Neo Geo could indeed provide some serious polygons.  The easiest way would to be adding RAM to a cart then you'd have something special.   But then having an arcade stick layout stinks for 3d style games except maybe a fighter like virtual fighter.

I doubt that cube is taxing anything, just a simple proof of concept.

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/30/2013, 10:34 PMWho the hell wants crappy "I'm barely capable of this" polygons anyway when you can have an easily animated 2D Earthquake?

(https://www.fightersgeneration.com/characters/snk-earthquake.gif)

I don't think Stunt Race FX caused any envy in the Neo scene...did it?

I just got Stunt Race FX, it's a slide show.  Still fun however but man it's like playing Doom on a 386.