PCEngine-FX.com

Not sure which board to pose this question on.

If someone were to 'press' 500 copies of 1-5 Turbo CD games complete in jewel cases, back insert, and 2-panel front insert and make them available to the Turbo community for basically cost+shipping, which games would be the most 'useful' to the community in pressed form?  Some of the English-patch-translated PCE games?  Some of the harder to find games?  Homebrew games which have never been released in pressed form (i.e. Meteor Blaster DX)?  etc...?  It seems as though the debate still continues for pressed CDs vs CDRs, but at least nobody dislikes pressed CDs.

I am NOT advocating selling something that a living company has current interest in 'protecting' their rights.  It's just that, for curiousity's sake, I recently got a price quote, and for 500 (minimum order) 'pressed' CDs as follows - (CD Package=CD replication from glass master with 1 to 3 color screen print, 2 panel insert (4/4) and tray card, jewel case, assembly & wrap) - for reasonable pricing, and I wonder why/if this question has come up before and if so, then what the community's consensus was on this issue?  If I'm stepping on anyone's toes by asking this question, then I apologize in advance.

Beyond Shadowgate would be a good candidate. I don't think there is a remake for this or on a collection of sorts. I also suggest Bonk 3 CD and Super Air Zonk although there is a good chance that those did make it to a remake or collection of sorts.

I'd like a copy of Dungeon Explorer 2 without spending infinity dollars.

Quote from: seieienbu on 02/26/2013, 06:11 PMI'd like a copy of Dungeon Explorer 2 without spending infinity dollars.

It has been remade:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Explorer:_Warriors_of_Ancient_Arts
NVM I guess it hasn't. But the first game was on the Wii virtual console. I'm not so sure if Konami would appreciate someone selling bootleg copies of one of their games they may intend to remake or release.

This thread was done before...  but I am mobile so it is hard to look for it.

I think that people wanted some US dubbed PC-E games most of all, though I pushed for Space Fantasy Zone.

Quote from: TheClash603 on 02/26/2013, 06:15 PMThis thread was done before...  but I am mobile so it is hard to look for it.

I think that people wanted some US dubbed PC-E games most of all, though I pushed for Space Fantasy Zone.

How 'complete' is Space Fantasy Zone?  It's a prototype that was never released, right?

Quote from: BigusSchmuck on 02/26/2013, 06:12 PM

Quote from: seieienbu on 02/26/2013, 06:11 PMI'd like a copy of Dungeon Explorer 2 without spending infinity dollars.

It has been remade:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Explorer:_Warriors_of_Ancient_Arts
NVM I guess it hasn't. But the first game was on the Wii virtual console. I'm not so sure if Konami would appreciate someone selling bootleg copies of one of their games they may intend to remake or release.

Didn't know about that, thanks for the heads up.  I'd still rather play it on my turbo, but whatever, vote rescinded.

Here it is:
https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=10156.0

BTW- Did anyone else think this thread was about CD games in which you needed to press run the most?

Quote from: TheClash603 on 02/26/2013, 07:37 PMBTW- Did anyone else think this thread was about CD games in which you needed to press run the most?

Yep I did at least. I should have known I remember reading a similar thread over a year ago...

The other thread didn't have Beyond Shadowgate as an option, but I think it's a great candidate. US only, never re-made in any form, and pricey as hell.

Bonk 3 CD would be a waste as it is strictly a collectors item and a downgrade of the readily available HuCards versions.

I would say the same for Super Air Zonk.

i think Beyond Shadowgate would be a great choice for this.   It would be nice if the remake was in a singular jewel case, as the double case of the original was really superfluous.  Sure, it contained a poster, but the airbrushed cover artwork and poster looked kinda lame compared to the gorgeous in-game art, IMO.

Ys IV english translated and Dracula X of course... there's also a megaman port around somewhere, dungeon explorer II (US)... I had in mind a couple more, just can't remember.

Basically, all US releases that are far overpriced nowadays would be great!

Translations are an obvious choice (i.e. Ys4), but only with the blessing of the team that produced them.

Quote from: guest on 02/27/2013, 03:47 AMTranslations are an obvious choice (i.e. Ys4), but only with the blessing of the team that produced them.

I understand and agree, although it must be recognized that it may be difficult to get agreement (or even contact) with all members of such a team.  If this idea were pursued, then from my position, it should be a not-for-profit venture for sure, which may ameliorate any emotions.

I'm so fucking sloooooow!  I can't believe it's been a year and a half already, but hopefully other games will follow more quickly once the first is out the door.  Motteke Tamago is very close to being sent for pressing and Space Fantasy Zone continues to wait in the wings for new music, but I'm not against doing something else while SFZ's on hold (assuming more than a few dozen people buy MT).  Unlike MT and SFZ titles (which required artwork to be created from scratch, code modifications, and new tunes for SAZ), something like Beyond Shadowgate could be a relatively quick straight copy job.  Translated games would need translated artwork made (even if not a full manual) and thus take more time to prepare, but the translators have made it clear that they don't want their work used in such a way, even as non-profit booties; and while I entirely disagree with their arguments, I'm not going to piss on their efforts and do 'em anyway.

As for doing multiple games in one shot, I don't know if that'd be a good idea or not.  On one hand it'd spread the shipping cost out and more people would get the title they most wanted first, but on the other hand it'd require a much larger initial investment and force people to buy games they may not want (albeit for a pittance).  I'd rather wait and see how MT turns out first before jumping in head first.

Just to echo what others are saying, english trans/dub of Drac X, and Dungeon Explorer 2 would both be awesome.

Chris

I know it's going to be shot down, but just to show how much demand there is, I vote Ys IV!

Quote from: guest on 02/27/2013, 04:08 PMTranslated games would need translated artwork made (even if not a full manual) and thus take more time to prepare, but the translators have made it clear that they don't want their work used in such a way, even as non-profit booties; and while I entirely disagree with their arguments, I'm not going to piss on their efforts and do 'em anyway.

Well, for Ys IV, the textual part of the project is my domain and I would help you with that and pull out some of the dubbing work that Justus Johnston did with me like for the Darm opening (and I could get 2-3 of his actors that were recruited way back). He wouldn't mind. BurntLasagna refuses inclusion of his dubbing work. So, you'd have to be willing to go without most of that. All the other actors that he managed to recruit on his own would fall under his domain and I wouldn't try to bypass him further (Minus say Duo_R and ParanoiaDragon, our guys here, who would consent to the inclusion of their samples). But you can see, without the full voice cast, might as well forget it and leave it all Japanese. But yeah, we have a translated manual ready-to-go (could use a little work though), and we'd have the in-game text for such a project.

As for the Dracula X translation project, BurntLasagna entirely managed that (Bonknuts did the hacking) and the answer there is a flat out no. It would have to be done by somebody that doesn't care what anyone in the translation team thinks.

Quote from: Keranu on 02/27/2013, 05:30 PMI know it's going to be shot down, but just to show how much demand there is, I vote Ys IV!

Well, like I said, if you would accept it without most of the voice actors, then it's got the greenlight by me and I'd make it possible. I could help get actors re-recorded to replace the ones that would refuse inclusion under BL's domain as well. You guys would have to step up and manage that part and I'd just set you up with the software, etc.

A

Quote from: NightWolve on 02/27/2013, 05:32 PM

Quote from: guest on 02/27/2013, 04:08 PMTranslated games would need translated artwork made (even if not a full manual) and thus take more time to prepare, but the translators have made it clear that they don't want their work used in such a way, even as non-profit booties; and while I entirely disagree with their arguments, I'm not going to piss on their efforts and do 'em anyway.

Well, for Ys IV, the textual part of the project is my domain and I would help you with that and pull out some of the dubbing work that Justus Johnston did with me like for the Darm opening (and I could get 2-3 of his actors that were recruited way back). He wouldn't mind. BurntLasagna refuses inclusion of his dubbing work. So, you'd have to be willing to go without most of that. All the other actors that he managed to recruit on his own would fall under his domain and I wouldn't try to bypass him further (Minus say Duo_R and ParanoiaDragon, our guys here, who would consent to the inclusion of their samples). But you can see, without the full voice cast, might as well forget it and leave it all Japanese. But yeah, we have a translated manual ready-to-go (could use a little work though), and we'd have the in-game text for such a project.

As for the Dracula X translation project, BurntLasagna entirely managed that and the answer there is a flat out no. It would have to be done by somebody that doesn't care what anyone in the translation team thinks.

Any particular reason why BurntLasagna refuses his work on Ys IV to be on pressed cds? I know the Dracula X project would bring unwanted attention, but as for Ys IV I don't see why the authorities would have any issues with it. My other vote would go for Ys IV too. Again, Beyond Shadowgate is pretty safe to do and I would rather pay someone to cover the costs of it being pressed than paying $200 to some ebayer who wants to just to profit from it.

I really don't see what the point would be in getting "permission" or whatever from translators when you sure as fuck aren't going to get it from Hudson, etc.

I also vote Ys IV. Drac X is much less needed, IMO, since the game has zero language barrier and is available translated on at least two other systems.

Quote from: BigusSchmuck on 02/27/2013, 05:49 PMAny particular reason why BurntLasagna refuses his work on Ys IV to be on pressed cds? I know the Dracula X project would bring unwanted attention, but as for Ys IV I don't see why the authorities would have any issues with it. My other vote would go for Ys IV too.

Overtly, he's got the "fan credo" opinion (gotta be nice here since I worked with the guy) as stated on the first post of his Ys IV thread (https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=13136.0). You can take that at face value.

In general, it varies with people. I have a lot of theories about it and the following by no means necessarily applies to him, but in some cases, it's due to a little fear because of the typical paranoia that certain places promote that the FBI will come knocking down your door the second unlicensed fan work is charged for... There is also a certain peer pressure that said places promote that if you somehow sell such work, that makes you the focus of modern evil in the world, a greedy "mercenary," a part of the "wrong kind of crowd" and so you will be demonized as such, etc. Thus, not wanting to offend such forces also plays a role and the result is someone going way out of their way to tell you money had nothing to do with it and never will, etc. This peer pressure comes from the people that have been getting this stuff for free and wanna keep it that way (the warez), people who just developed some honest kind of sense that it's wrong, and also, certain anti-capitalist, non-profit ideologues who discovered that the fan translation movement is a good vehicle for anti-capitalism (I know, the last one is a little out there, but I've run into some).

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 02/27/2013, 07:02 PMI really don't see what the point would be in getting "permission" or whatever from translators when you sure as fuck aren't going to get it from Hudson, etc.

I know, but it's respect, albeit very begrudgingly (in my case), for someone that I know and worked with... Though I'm not willing to cede complete veto power and could get some dubs of actors I know were recruited prior with Justus and who post here on PCEFX.

Too much importance on "gamer cred", imo.

I'm curious now, why is there such a reluctance to do this if its really this easy?
http://www.nationwidedisc.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=116&Itemid=166

Quote from: BigusSchmuck on 02/27/2013, 08:01 PMI'm curious now, why is there such a reluctance to do this if its really this easy?
http://www.nationwidedisc.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=116&Itemid=166

Well, NightWolve lays out several reasons above why someone might be against it. Another reason would be that it might not actually be that easy (https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=12867.0). :)

Quote from: NightWolve on 02/27/2013, 07:12 PM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 02/27/2013, 07:02 PMI really don't see what the point would be in getting "permission" or whatever from translators when you sure as fuck aren't going to get it from Hudson, etc.

I know, but it's respect, albeit very begrudgingly (in my case), for someone that I know and worked with... Though I'm not willing to cede complete veto power and could get some dubs of actors I know were recruited prior with Justus and who post here on PCEFX.

For what it's worth, I really appreciate that respect between you two. Both you and Burnt (and a few others here) have done some amazing things for us. I'll take whatever I can get from you guys and support you guys however I can.

But still I'd love to see some of these things pressed.

I want a pressed disc of the Ys IV Translation, too! If those guys making reproductions of fan-translated NES and SNES games can get away with it, why can't we? No one wants to be stuck with a CD-R that won't even read right some of the time (if at all)!

Come on, BL! Please? Gamer cred on the internet is worth nothing! That's like saying: "I will totally call women who beat me in games sexist names and ruthlessly troll people who disagree with me, but people who try to use my work to help out fellow gamers? FUCK YOU!!!!!!"

Now, I know that you would never do any of the former, but I do find this a little ridiculous. I can understand not wanting to upset Konami by having reproductions made of Dracula X after they so graciously released it for the PSP, but Dawn of Ys will likely never be officially released in America. I don't see Falcom and XSeed making it a bonus on the new PS Vita version...

Quote from: BigusSchmuck on 02/27/2013, 08:01 PMI'm curious now, why is there such a reluctance to do this if its really this easy?
http://www.nationwidedisc.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=116&Itemid=166

It's expensive and you end up with boxes of spare discs sitting all over your basement.

Quote from: guest on 02/27/2013, 04:08 PMI'm so fucking sloooooow!  I can't believe it's been a year and a half already, but hopefully other games will follow more quickly once the first is out the door.  Motteke Tamago is very close to being sent for pressing and Space Fantasy Zone continues to wait in the wings for new music, but I'm not against doing something else while SFZ's on hold (assuming more than a few dozen people buy MT).  Unlike MT and SFZ titles (which required artwork to be created from scratch, code modifications, and new tunes for SAZ), something like Beyond Shadowgate could be a relatively quick straight copy job.  Translated games would need translated artwork made (even if not a full manual) and thus take more time to prepare, but the translators have made it clear that they don't want their work used in such a way, even as non-profit booties; and while I entirely disagree with their arguments, I'm not going to piss on their efforts and do 'em anyway.

As for doing multiple games in one shot, I don't know if that'd be a good idea or not.  On one hand it'd spread the shipping cost out and more people would get the title they most wanted first, but on the other hand it'd require a much larger initial investment and force people to buy games they may not want (albeit for a pittance).  I'd rather wait and see how MT turns out first before jumping in head first.

Motteke is close to being sent out?  Sweet!  As for SFZ, if only I had time.  Besides Jungle Bros., Dragon Arm got pushed up faster then I anticipated, so, I've been working on ideas for that, & we've had another project come along that I'm in the middle of right now(though it shouldn't take me too long to finish up).  I do want to help out with SFZ, but, with my official projects....  I have come up with some ideas for it recently however, though, I still wonder if there's any coding to due, besides assigning new tracks to the levels?

You know what game never gets mentioned?  Snatcher!

I always wanted to play, but the Sega CD copy is stupid expensive.

Quote from: TheClash603 on 02/28/2013, 07:39 AMYou know what game never gets mentioned?  Snatcher!

I always wanted to play, but the Sega CD copy is stupid expensive.

I don't think that the average Sega-CD system has as much trouble playing cdrs as the average Turbo/PCE CD-ROM does.

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 02/27/2013, 07:02 PMI really don't see what the point would be in getting "permission" or whatever from translators when you sure as fuck aren't going to get it from Hudson, etc.

Probably because I'm not a total asshole, at least not in this one particular instance.  I like playing translations and hope for more, so I see little advantage in pissing off any of the handful of people that do such work.

Quote from: The Old Rover on 02/27/2013, 07:42 PMToo much importance on "gamer cred", imo.

I don't know about that.  The credit and kudos will always come in long before a real disc will ship, and if anything a pressed disc would make more people happy and presumably grateful (assuming that the patch is still available for download and that the disc is sold cheaply).  And with credits printed right on the booty, there's a better chance that people will see who did the work than there is from them reading the readme.

Quote from: ParanoiaDragon on 02/28/2013, 02:14 AMI still wonder if there's any coding to do, besides assigning new tracks to the levels?

Just that and disabling the end level cheat, both of which were done speedily by Tom.

I'd love a pressed Beyond Shadowgate that wasn't stupid expensive

Burnt Lasagna feels that playing CD games through Mednafen on Wii is as good as or better than the real thing. So he doesn't have the motivation that ithers do to see oroperly functioning discs created.

The potential legal issues and attention that could arise from pressing discs discourages him from supporting it. He doesn't want companies like Konami (who own the rights to both Drac X and Ys IV) to start hunting down future translation projects and threaten legal action before they're even completed. The longer these projects remain under the radar, the longer that new ones can be considered by many people.

In the past he has mentioned playing games that he did not own, so he's not the morally-against-unauthorized-use-to-the-extreme type of person that there were many more of during the early days of emulation.

One aspect to keep in mind regarding the translation projects is that it's probably only a matter of time before somebody like Care4Data swoops in for the opportunity to produce those games and sell them purely for self profit on eBay. And, kind of shameful for me to admit, I'd probably be one to buy it... but I'd feel much better supporting a community-driven production than giving money to some anonymous bootlickin' bootlegger.

Quote from: Keranu on 02/28/2013, 03:58 PMOne aspect to keep in mind regarding the translation projects is that it's probably only a matter of time before somebody like Care4Data swoops in for the opportunity to produce those games and sell them purely for self profit on eBay. And, kind of shameful for me to admit, I'd probably be one to buy it... but I'd feel much better supporting a community-driven production than giving money to some anonymous bootlickin' bootlegger.

Yeah, me too.....

Quote from: Keranu on 02/28/2013, 03:58 PMOne aspect to keep in mind regarding the translation projects is that it's probably only a matter of time before somebody like Care4Data swoops in for the opportunity to produce those games and sell them purely for self profit on eBay. And, kind of shameful for me to admit, I'd probably be one to buy it... but I'd feel much better supporting a community-driven production than giving money to some anonymous bootlickin' bootlegger.

Care4Data is just the pressing company, not the ones actually trying to repro and sell for profit, right?

I'd be good for any games that no company has any rights to anymore. Some stuff does actually end up as abandonware after all, but you'd need to look around and do some real investigating first. For others that still have rights being owned, stuff like Beyond Shadowgate I mean (David Marsh I think owns the rights to it), find out who is the current rights holder, and see if a deal could be worked out with them to get the game to be redistributed at an affordable price. That is one game I would pay $40 for for a packaged repress.

When you make contact with them though, you need to do it in a professional manner, and present a real strategy as to how you'd make it happen. They may want to ask some hard questions that you really need to be able to answer. Otherwise I would not bother. The last thing anyone needs to do is end up in a lawsuit for pursuing an unlicensed re-release that is also going to bring flack down on the community here and present a bad image of us as TG/PCE fans.

Legit games will never happen.  Somebody, somewhere owns the rights to most everything (everything desirable anyhow), and they're not going to give a tin shit about selling a couple hundred copies of an old game; a couple grand payday is peanuts, and it's just not worth the time for them to research if they own the rights 100% (they may own the game but not certain assets, like music), update the case/manual/title screen with new copyrights and corporate info., research the game to make sure it doesn't reflect poorly on them (what was okay 20 years ago isn't necessarily PC today), draw up contracts, etc.

Quote from: guest on 02/28/2013, 05:31 PMLegit games will never happen. 

I wouldn't say that exactly. Its already happened on other systems, at least as far as getting unreleasd games released anyway, like Total Carnage on Jaguar and Nightmare Busters for Snes.

Quote from: Keranu on 02/28/2013, 03:58 PMOne aspect to keep in mind regarding the translation projects is that it's probably only a matter of time before somebody like Care4Data swoops in for the opportunity to produce those games and sell them purely for self profit on eBay. And, kind of shameful for me to admit, I'd probably be one to buy it... but I'd feel much better supporting a community-driven production than giving money to some anonymous bootlickin' bootlegger.

I'm 50/50 on this, since, hell yeah, I want me a pressed disc/manual/etc., but I don't want to contribute to a profiteer either.  If the prices were much lower, so that they're not making buttloads of money, then that's a different matter.  Speaking of which, I'd still like to see that Marble Madness get made professionally somehow!

Quote from: ParanoiaDragon on 02/28/2013, 08:14 PMSpeaking of which, I'd still like to see that Marble Madness get made professionally somehow!

He's done gloating, no need to come back now.

Quote from: jperryss on 02/28/2013, 08:24 PM

Quote from: ParanoiaDragon on 02/28/2013, 08:14 PMSpeaking of which, I'd still like to see that Marble Madness get made professionally somehow!

He's done gloating, no need to come back now.

Ha yeah fuck him.

I can definitely see why people would want a pressed version of the Ys IV translation, as it's now one of the best english RPGs available for the system.  It has been said by others, and I have to agree, that going against the wishes of the team that helped translate it does not seem like a wise decision.  To me this reads like "biting the hand that feeds you".  

IMO, the Ys IV translation + dub is one of the greatest gifts this community has been given.  If we turn around and spit in their face, why would they ever want to contribute anything else to us?  There is so much potential for other great japanese games to be translated, and yet there are so few that have the skills/time/interest in doing so.  Why alienate people that are willing to do this for us?

Meanwhile, with respect to the team whom translated Drac X, a pressed version just seems even less necessary, as there is absolutely no language barrier.  Plus the german intro sounds badass already  8)

also, not trying to ruffle feathers or anything, but I gotta say that the whole "we better do this or else anime4ever is going to" is a little weak.  The only way he poses a threat is if we are trying to make a profit...which I assume we aren't.  I mean...whos to say that if we went through with a YsIV pressing first, only to have him copy it and sell it for profit?  What are we gunna do...tell the cops?!?!lol.

What if he offeres a far better package?  There are many possibilities and it all starts to get a bit paranoid at that point, so we may as well not worry about him because he can (and will) do whatever he wants.  The rockman cdrs are proof of that.

If anime4ever decides to go through with it, and it's as inevitable as some think, then the only protest we can truly offer is to not purchase from that dude.

The reason BL (and others) don't want booties made is to avoid unwanted attention from the original IP's owner, and anime4ever selling 'em for $50+ would surely attract their attention and wrath a heck of a lot quicker than them being sold for two bucks.  So it's not so much that we gotta beat him to the punch or that we're trying to compete with him, but more who would you rather have making the inevitable booties?

If anime4ever copies any of these projects, which I'm sure he's well aware of, any kind of pcefx pressing will only stop the sale of maybe 50 - 100 copies or so, while the rest of the internet goes buck wild paying $300 each for his "rare" secret undistributed final days of TTi copies.

I'm wondering how anime4ever gets away with it. I always thought that what he is doing was illegal. Is it because the games he sells look so good that no one prove them as fakes or what?

He gets away with it because nobody really cares enough to expend the legal resources to fight him.  Since they're old, out of print games (or never printed in the first place), it'd be impossible for them to prove damages, meaning the most they could expect from the courts is a cease and desist.

Well, the other thing is his location, which makes it harder to go after him. It would be a bit different, and easier for a American or Japanese company to go after another person in a North American court over a copyright issue. So that plays a factor in it. Though my understanding of when he was contacted by SFT about his own unofficial distribution of Nightmare Busters and asked to stop, he did so, from what I understand.

Quote from: Keith Courage on 03/01/2013, 04:35 PMI'm wondering how anime4ever gets away with it. I always thought that what he is doing was illegal. Is it because the games he sells look so good that no one prove them as fakes or what?

I don't think it has anything to do with his location or the quality of his repros. Not to excuse the BS he's committed, but Anime4ever is an example of what can be done if you don't pussyfoot around or ask permission or start threads on forums or solicit crowdfunding. He just puts his stuff up for sale and sells. People don't question things if it looks legitimate. They go "geewiz, is this illegal? I don't know, but I needs it fer my collection. Dur."  If Fudoh were to come here and start a thread asking us what game he should do next, then some fucking Millennial vigilante cybercop wannabe who thinks pirating = theft would freak out about someone making a profit and we'd have Virtuaboy Faceball all over again.

Vestcunt has it. We're pussies and that's pretty much the size of things.

I just don't care to pay someone else here, or anywhere, good money for someone elses copyrighted material. It would be like as if I wrote a book and 10 years later found other publishers dishing it back out on the market illegally without me getting my fair share since I did not abandon the rights to the book. I know I wouldn't be cool with that, just as I know most people who still own rights to whatever games wouldn't appreciate it either. So I don't want to support that behavior, nor be attached to any community that supports blatant black market piracy for profit (no matter how small the profits may be). If this kind of shit starts taking place here, I'm gone, simple as that. It has nothing to do with pussy footing it or being afraid. Its a moral stance.

It's not that clear cut in the real world. If a game is out of print forever, chances are most of the talent that worked on it would be happy just knowing people are interested enough in the thing to pirate. The people who are most enthusiastic about suing people are the douchebag executives that contributed nothing to the original work and probably didn't work at the company when it was made.

A book is one thing, a book can be written by one guy who pretty much deserves total control, reward, etc. Games have dozens of people who have worked on them. Some are dead, some don't care, almost none would rather seen it stay OOP, almost all of which did the original work for less than minimum wage and never had lofty goals of profit.

I know a guy that recently ran into the dude that did the OST for Metamor Jupiter. He gave him a pirate copy of it so he could have a copy of his music because the guy didn't even have it anymore. People who work in this biz, especially 20 years ago, are always looking to the next thing. They aren't just squatting on stuff waiting for checks to come in. They do not give a shit at all.

Speaking of profit, I assume this project (which will almost certainly never happen) would be a loss and not a profit generator. I'm not interested at all in anyone making a dime off this, but I will gladly fund something a SFZ release and I'm not going to feel bad for the art director who says, "How could you STEAL from me!?" because that person doesn't exist. Rescuing abandoned software (the practical definition, not the legal one) interests me. Starting a rival for Anime4ever doesn't. That guy can go fuck himself.

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/04/2013, 08:37 PMIt's not that clear cut in the real world. If a game is out of print forever, chances are most of the talent that worked on it would be happy just knowing people are interested enough in the thing to pirate. The people who are most enthusiastic about suing people are the douchebag executives that contributed nothing to the original work and probably didn't work at the company when it was made.

A book is one thing, a book can be written by one guy who pretty much deserves total control, reward, etc. Games have dozens of people who have worked on them. Some are dead, some don't care, almost none would rather seen it stay OOP, almost all of which did the original work for less than minimum wage and never had lofty goals of profit.

I know a guy that recently ran into the dude that did the OST for Metamor Jupiter. He gave him a pirate copy of it so he could have a copy of his music because the guy didn't even have it anymore. People who work in this biz, especially 20 years ago, are always looking to the next thing. They aren't just squatting on stuff waiting for checks to come in. They do not give a shit at all.

Speaking of profit, I assume this project (which will almost certainly never happen) would be a loss and not a profit generator. I'm not interested at all in anyone making a dime off this, but I will gladly fund something a SFZ release and I'm not going to feel bad for the art director who says, "How could you STEAL from me!?" because that person doesn't exist. Rescuing abandoned software (the practical definition, not the legal one) interests me. Starting a rival for Anime4ever doesn't. That guy can go fuck himself.

Actually it is pretty damn clear cut in the real world. The fact is, I don't care if its 2 guys and a cat, or an individual team that made the game that retains the rights, or some company with "douchebag executives" that retains them, the point being, it is THEIR intellectual property that they invested time and money in, released or not. If a company or individual owns the rights, even if they are not currently using/selling said product at market, the point is that it is theirs, 150 fucking percent, and the workers who did the programming, etc for them were paid for their work at the time, as said employees of the company. Bringing up low paid workers is moot even, because unless you where there actually checking their paycheck stubs, you actually have no idea how much each worker made.

If you think they wont care if their property is pirated for profit, and would be cool with it, then why not drop them a informal email first asking permission to do so? Yeah...thought so... Like I said, do it right, or don't bother doing it at all, because the last thing the TG community or collective needs to be known for is bootlegging for profit, even slight profit.

And I can also say, if it wasn't profitable, Assface4evah wouldn't still be doing it. You can try and reason that you will just be doing it at cost, but to be honest, it doesn't matter. You are still re-releasing and selling something you have absolutely ZERO legal right to. It was not your work. Just because one asshole is doing it doesn't mean anyone here needs to follow down that road too.

SFZ was never released, it deserves to be released.

If someone here knows who owns the rights, please get me an email, phone number, address, etc.  I will send a message and see what's up.

There...  I called your bluff.  I don't even have a rom / emulator on my computer, so don't take the moral high ground with me.  Releasing a game that never saw an official release and is vaporware is a service to the community and not a crime.

Prof - I hear where you're coming from. I'm not cool with anyone profiting on this stuff either, which is why I don't support anime4forever. My point was only addressing how amine4ever gets away with it.

Where we perhaps differ and I'm more moderate is when it comes to pirating abandonware at cost. Is this legal? No. But I don't believe it's immoral because the duration of our copyright laws is totally fucked up. Copyright is supposed to be temporary. It was created to give people a financial incentive to contribute to society, not to give Disney and nonhuman multinational entities an eternal monopoly on everything we use. The golden age of video games happened twenty years ago and made a profound impact on the last two generations. These games are part of our culture. If the owners can't be bothered to exploit their assets or hunt down their ROMs on the internet, then their temporary monopoly is over.

Everyone who worked on these games twenty years ago has moved on. 99% of the original artists and programmers don't own the IP. The corporations that owned the IP are mostly defunct (NEC didn't even keep an archive; Hudson has been bought out). The owners aren't doing anything with the IP. ROMS and digital copies have been freely available everywhere for decades and the owners don't seen terribly concerned. There's no reason we should have to wait another 70+ years to make a small batch of discs and play abandoned games on real hardware.

You have a strong sense of justice and I respect that. I don't want to see anymore profiting bootleggers, but I have no problem with abandonware pirates on an at-cost or donation basis.

Quote from: TheClash603 on 03/05/2013, 12:00 AMSFZ was never released, it deserves to be released.

If someone here knows who owns the rights, please get me an email, phone number, address, etc.  I will send a message and see what's up.

There...  I called your bluff.  I don't even have a rom / emulator on my computer, so don't take the moral high ground with me.  Releasing a game that never saw an official release and is vaporware is a service to the community and not a crime.

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a66/Amakusa666/customs/fantasyzone_zps93739e7e.png)

Sega of America
350 Rhode Island St #400  San Francisco, CA 94103
(415) 701-6000

Sega of Japan
SEGA Corporate
1-2-12 Haneda
Ohta-ku
Tokyo 144-8531
Japan


There you go, have at it cowboy.


Vestcunt, like I said, you guys do it without permission, it will bring a black mark to this forum and community, and it definitely wont go unnoticed by people who do have the rights to the IP. Eventually someone will find out. For that matter, what do you think will happen if a US pressing house decides to look into the fact that you are not Sega, Konami, or whomever else, and contact the actual company about said work. Just to pull this off you are going to have to find a pressing company out of the US who wont look into things. In the end, it is theirs, not yours. It is totally up to them if they want to continue to use it for future releases, not you or anyone else here. No matter how much you try to justify it, it is not right, at all. And to be honest, no one here actually knows what any given company or development teams reaction will be until you make a inquire. Like I said, this has been done officially on other systems, to some success mind you, and also on PC with GOG constantly re-releasing old games from Dos on up (and dont forget Atgames systems with official rom compilations).

This topic has been done before, concerning films also, and to give a very real example, Richard Stanley's Hardware. People gave the exact same arguments you guys are giving concerning that film and it needing to be on dvd to be "preserved" and "enjoyed" without going through the proper channels. Due to this the movie got bootlegged left and right, and when Richard Stanley was finally able to get a proper official release out to market on DVD and Bluray it was too late, as the bootleggers wrecked it all here on the North American DVD release, thus once again cheating the guy out of getting his proper due. The movie dropped in price rapidly as no one was buying it after having access to bootlegs on ebay for years now. Concerning something un-released like SFZ, you honestly have no idea if they would ever plan to use it. For all you know it could be on a back burner project for a Sega compilation one day. You don't know because no one has asked.

Ultimately, you guys are going to do what you want, by like I said, you do it, I myself, I'm def gone from here. I'm not sticking around for that shit, and I wont be surprised if Aaron shuts the forum down rather then have it used for such a thing. Considering he is barely invested as is, I doubt he wants to be attached to any illegal IP crap by proxy, or have his forum used for scheming of the such.


EDIT: On a side note, the whole "preserving this game" argument is null and void also. The game has been preserved. Its up on torrents for anyone to grab if they care to do so, along with basically every other PCE/TG CD game and rom, and personally, that aspect of it I don't even care about. I don't play burns, or roms like that, but whatever, I have nothing against it nor care to comment on its pros and cons. What I am against is someone profiting, now matter how small the amount may be, off another's work illegally.

Quote from: PCEngineHell on 03/05/2013, 12:57 AMWhat I am against is someone profiting, now matter how small the amount may be, off another's work illegally.

If the only thing you are against is profiting, then I don't see why you just wrote such a long rant against pirating. We're all anti-profiting, especially NecroPhile, and he's the only one who's seriously proposed anything.

Anyway, we all understand that pirating is illegal in the eyes of the law and we've been talking about this for years and I doubt anything will ever happen...
 
Professor - out of curiosity, what would your ideal copyright law be if you were King? Would you differentiate between human and corporate entities? Would you keep the limited monopoly at the life of the author plus seventy years, or would you adjust it? What do you think of the corporate influence on our lawmakers that prevents anything from ever becoming public domain?

Quote from: guest on 03/05/2013, 02:30 AM

Quote from: PCEngineHell on 03/05/2013, 12:57 AMWhat I am against is someone profiting, now matter how small the amount may be, off another's work illegally.

If the only thing you are against is profiting, then I don't see why you just wrote such a long rant against pirating. We're all anti-profiting, especially NecroPhile, and he's the only one who's seriously proposed anything.

Anyway, we all understand that pirating is illegal in the eyes of the law and we've been talking about this for years and I doubt anything will ever happen...
 
Professor - out of curiosity, what would your ideal copyright law be if you were King? Would you differentiate between human and corporate entities? Would you keep the limited monopoly at the life of the author plus seventy years, or would you adjust it? What do you think of the corporate influence on our lawmakers that prevents anything from ever becoming public domain?

To be more specific, I am against any kind of release at all that involves some kind of illegal monetary transaction. You may not be making a profit, you may sell them at cost, but the company that pressed the disc for you did make a profit, since you paid them to illegally manufacture the disc to begin with, so in the end, someone is profiting. You guys do the rom thing, whatever. I don't see that cutting into the profits of an official release or anything. Most people out there who messed with the VC on Wii, I doubt they messed with, or even heard of Magic Engine, or know where to grab a image or rom set. I'm sure Dracula X and others sold well enough on PSP, etc, and all regardless of years of its cd image being on the net to grab.

I dont do it myself, but I am not going to comment on anyone else doing it. Usually that kind of activity at least generates some small lasting interest in things, causing them to get talked about and sometimes an official re-release of some kind occurs, even if morally it is wrong to some degree. If you guys started posting links here however to roms left and right and openly sharing image files, then I'd probably be telling you to stop, simply because this forum does not need something like that hanging over its head.

Also, I do firmly believe that people who download with no intention at all to buy anything though to begin with cant and should not ever be counted as lost sales, even though the entertainment industry tries to do so, because that potential future sale was never there to begin with, and there are many out there who operate under this kind of mentality. There are also buyers out there though who dl however, and that if they like what they played, listened to, or saw, will actually buy a hard copy or pay for a official dl.  There is no actual factual hard evidence to show how roms and image file sharing, etc, damages official sales, since there is no actual way to differentiate between to two types of people involved in said activity without directly asking each individual one to begin with, which is obviously impossible to do.

At least this method does not seem to actually cheat the IP holder out of actual sales, especially of good products. If companies really want to believe this type of activity cheats them out of sales, then they might as well also accuse library's, along with video rentals, official streaming sites, normal  tv channels, your next door neighbor and family, radio stations, etc all of cheating them out of potential sales also and try to sue them all also too since millions of people also use these forms of sharing to access said products daily.

This applies to movies, games, music, etc. People however who are willing to eventually buy something will eventually buy it, official release, or non-official at times if there is no official release (see Richard Stanley's Hardware, or even Dellamorte Dellamore). But will they buy both a non, then an official? No, not likely. People in general don't like buying the same shit over and over and over again, so typically the first one out the door on niche stuff like this, that is going to be the one that people buy and stick with unless people are just die hard and have money to throw away, or the un-offical is just a terrible product in general.

Once you start delving into hard copy releases, you risk the chance of bringing about real legal response, and also ruining the chance of the rights holder investing money into, or giving the ok on any kind of official future release to some 3rd party so they can do it properly. Once you put your own copy out there, especially for way cheaper then what an official one would be, that is one more chance for another lost sale to the guy or company who should be getting their due on their own official re-release (again, see Richard Stanleys Hardware, etc).

In my personal view on timelines to rights holding, as far as how long the rights should be retained on a creative piece of work, I believe if the company is still around, then it should still be theirs. If it was involving an individual, then the rights belong to their estate if they are deceased, or to whomever they chose to sign the rights of IP over to. If a company or individual closed up or ceased to exist without signing over the rights to IP, then consider it abandoneware and anything goes. I'm not really worried about who has the rights to what games though 70 years from now. I will be dead. All of us will be dead. No one is going to have a crt tv going probably, let alone a real Duo, nor will anyone care. If the stuff is by chance still around, then that will be for a future generation to deal with.

This stuff, these games in general, are basically for our generation though, and probably 70 years in the future,  other then a select few with glass cases of 100+ year old antiques, no one is going to care. All this will most likely die with us. Odds are most of the world is going to be a nuked wasteland full of starving people in over populated areas anyway. By then copyright laws wont matter, nor will games from 1992.

I can see your point about bootlegging games such as Space Fantasy Zone, or Beyond Shadowgate, ect..  But, what is your stance on having fan translations pressed?  There are a lot of shades of grey in there, IMO.

Quote from: PCEngineHell on 03/05/2013, 12:57 AMSega of America
.....
There you go, have at it cowboy.

That's great, but Sega does not (nor did they ever) own SFZ.

Quote from: PCEngineHell on 03/05/2013, 12:57 AMAnd to be honest, no one here actually knows what any given company or development teams reaction will be until you make a inquire.

That's been done with two different companies (I don't recall which ones), both of which didn't much care and gave responses of this sort: "Huh?  That was two decades ago.  We've moved on, but thanks for being a fan."

Quote from: PCEngineHell on 03/05/2013, 12:57 AMConcerning something un-released like SFZ, you honestly have no idea if they would ever plan to use it. For all you know it could be on a back burner project for a Sega compilation one day. You don't know because no one has asked.

Suuuure it will.  It was shelved because NEC Ave. and Sega couldn't come to an agreement, but I'm sure they'll figure something out in another decade or two.

Quote from: PCEngineHell on 03/05/2013, 12:57 AMUltimately, you guys are going to do what you want, by like I said, you do it, I myself, I'm def gone from here. I'm not sticking around for that shit, and I wont be surprised if Aaron shuts the forum down rather then have it used for such a thing. Considering he is barely invested as is, I doubt he wants to be attached to any illegal IP crap by proxy, or have his forum used for scheming of the such.

Ever hear of Sapphire or Tom's NES roms on PCE?  While those aren't identical situations, they are IP theft and have already happened (though Aaron didn't seem to mind), so are you gonna put your money where your mouth is and leave?

Quote from: PCEngineHell on 03/05/2013, 03:44 AMTo be more specific, I am against any kind of release at all that involves some kind of illegal monetary transaction. You may not be making a profit, you may sell them at cost, but the company that pressed the disc for you did make a profit, since you paid them to illegally manufacture the disc to begin with, so in the end, someone is profiting.

And if I download an iso and burn it, the cdr maker made a profit, the computer maker made a profit, the isp made a profit, the electric utility made a profit, etc., etc., etc.  So what?

Quote from: PCEngineHell on 03/05/2013, 03:44 AMAt least this method does not seem to actually cheat the IP holder out of actual sales, especially of good products. If companies really want to believe this type of activity cheats them out of sales, then they might as well also accuse library's, along with video rentals, official streaming sites, normal  tv channels, your next door neighbor and family, radio stations, etc all of cheating them out of potential sales also and try to sue them all also too since millions of people also use these forms of sharing to access said products daily.

Don't let logic confuse the issue, but the main differences are that legitimate streaming sites, tv/radio broadcasters, and rental companies pay the IP holder for the right to use their stuff, and that libraries and personal lending are specifically allowed uses and only allow one copy in use at a time.

Quote from: PCEngineHell on 03/05/2013, 03:44 AMOnce you start delving into hard copy releases, you risk the chance of bringing about real legal response, and also ruining the chance of the rights holder investing money into, or giving the ok on any kind of official future release to some 3rd party so they can do it properly.

History says otherwise, as Sapphire was re-released, the Virtual Console made money hand over fist off of old games that'd been bootlegged (most every popular SNES game was booted), and NeoGeo stuff continues to sell well even though there's surely more boots than legit carts nowadays.

---

Quote from: VestCunt on 03/04/2013, 02:52 AM.... then some fucking Millennial vigilante cybercop wannabe who thinks pirating = theft would freak out about someone making a profit and we'd have Virtuaboy Faceball all over again.

It's sure looking that way, eh?

QuoteThat's great, but Sega does not (nor did they ever) own SFZ.

Fantasy Zone characters belong to Sega. That is their IP, and they cant be used without express permission. Don't feign ignorance to the such. Just because you add the word "Space" in front does not all the sudden make their rights to their IP null and void. Just because NEC Avenue did the programming does not all the sudden mean you get the ok to release a game you have no rights to. Also, it might be wise to actually check and see if they registered/submitted the entire game for copyright in Japan or where ever as is. It is very possible they have done so. Since you have not bothered to actually check, you dont know.

QuoteThat's been done with two different companies (I don't recall which ones), both of which didn't much care and gave responses of this sort: "Huh?  That was two decades ago.  We've moved on, but thanks for being a fan."

That still does not grant you a blank check to go off and re-release other peoples work, does it?

QuoteSuuuure it will.  It was shelved because NEC Ave. and Sega couldn't come to an agreement, but I'm sure they'll figure something out in another decade or two.

It would be up to them to do so, if they wanted to. Sega owns the IP either way. It's not life or death. You want to play the game, go burn your copy off and fire up Magic Engine. Nothings stopping you.

QuoteEver hear of Sapphire or Tom's NES roms on PCE?  While those aren't identical situations, they are IP theft and have already happened (though Aaron didn't seem to mind), so are you gonna put your money where your mouth is and leave?

I don't recall Aaron saying "hey come on over and advertise your stolen warez on my site" at any given point in time, and I do remember Anime4evah coming here and lying about the legitimacy of his Sapphires, back when he was able to afford some blind trust here. And Aaron, I do however know for a fact that he was against direct linking to rom downloads of any sort. If you have been doing it while he is on his never ending sabbatical, all that means is that he is unaware that you are doing it, because he never checks in. Start tying his forum to some illegal release and sale of a game and I can assure you he will find out that his forum is being used as a online store.

QuoteAnd if I download an iso and burn it, the cdr maker made a profit, the computer maker made a profit, the isp made a profit, the electric utility made a profit, etc., etc., etc.  So what?

Like I said, if you are one of those types that never buys shit anyway, it doesn't matter. You'd never bought an official release to begin with. That's a bit weak trying to use that to rationalize your plans to illegally release a un-released game.

QuoteDon't let logic confuse the issue, but the main differences are that legitimate streaming sites, tv/radio broadcasters, and rental companies pay the IP holder for the right to use their stuff, and that libraries and personal lending are specifically allowed uses and only allow one copy in use at a time.

Logic has not confused the issue, for me anyway, not my problem if you cant figure it out. And to add to that, so do your neighbors and friends, but now game companies are making efforts to make game releases tied to one system, so people who are supposed to actually own the game they paid for cant lend it out or sell it when they are done playing. How long you think it will be before the movie industry takes this step if it goes over well?

It's becoming more about leasing then owning. That is where things are headed. How are you going to cope with this? Are you going to re-release hacked copies of said games and movies on these next generation consoles and movie players once they become out of print, just because it was some niche title you just feel everyone should have access to? I mean, where does your justification on all this begin and actually end?

QuoteHistory says otherwise, as Sapphire was re-released, the Virtual Console made money hand over fist off of old games that'd been bootlegged (most every popular SNES game was booted), and NeoGeo stuff continues to sell well even though there's surely more boots than legit carts nowadays.

Sapphire was re-released in Japan on PSP on a compilation disc with other games, so yeah it sold well. However, Assface4Evah's main customer base has not been Japan, obviously. Who was, and is, his main customer base? Europe and North America. And I mean, after everyone here bought one of his copies of the game, did you go and buy the PSP release? Did you buy an original? Maybe some of you did, sure, but definitely not the majority. And I can assure you that if Hudson struck a deal with Super Fighter Team right now to release the game officially over here on Pce, at 50-60 bucks, many would not re-buy the game, and if Assface lowered the price of his copies to something like $20 a pop, many would just opt to buy his just to go the cheaper route because all they want is a pressed copy.

VC did well because the general gaming public does not mess with emulation and roms. As wide scale emulation on pc appears to be, people who use it still only account for a fraction of the actual gaming public, which is, like I said, why I do not believe it actually impacted sales in a negative way. People who are buyers, who want the stuff will buy it in some form.  As far as actual Snes bootlegs are concerned, what actual popular carts (US releases) are being bootlegged over here now, and were at the time of their original release? I'm sorry, I cant recall any. When you said this, were you actually referring to Snes fan translation releases?

The NeoGeo bootleg market, other then the junky multi cart crap, was quite small during the Neo systems actual AES, CD, and MVS life span, at least in NA and Japan. Most of the semi professional bootlegs came out of other parts of Asia or South America. Some arcade vendors in NA did make their own boots of some carts, sure, but this was not wide spread. In my entire life of buying AES and MVS items, and we are talking over a 100 carts here easy, I have only actually come across 3 boots. SNK vs Capcom Chaos, Sonic Wings 2, and Bust a Move. That was it.

And as for NeoGeo stuff selling well now, you have people trying to hack the new handheld so they can get it to load roms so they don't have to buy anymore games on it anyway. The compilation disc on PS2 and Wii in the US, and releases on the original Xbox sold well because half the people who bought that stuff were kids or adults who have no remote interest in actually owning SNK gear of any kind. Basically people like my son, who has all those US compilation releases. He knows he could have run them on emulation, but he doesn't mess with emulators and could care less about roms and crap. He likes owning hard copy releases of stuff. His friends are the exact same way. None of them mess with Mame, Snes9x, etc.

In the end, either way, there are all sorts of reasons as to why you should not do it, not just one specific one. But like I said, you are going to do what you want to do, and you clearly sound like you feel justified in doing so, like you have the right to do it, and someone with that mentality is just going to look for and make up any kind of excuse to justify their actions. So go ahead, do it, and when something happens, lmk how that legal battle you're having with Sega is going.

Quote from: guest on 03/05/2013, 10:54 AM

Quote from: guest on 03/04/2013, 02:52 AM.... then some fucking Millennial vigilante cybercop wannabe who thinks pirating = theft would freak out about someone making a profit and we'd have Virtuaboy Faceball all over again.

It's sure looking that way, eh?

Will I be the one to turn you in? No, so dont even try to put that off on me. But I wont be a part of it either, nor would I even need to turn you guys end. You'd have to be a total fucking idiot to think that this would go unnoticed. Like I said, you are counting on a North American pressing house not looking into why some guy named Brian Bobo from the styx is having a Sega game pressed at their plant. And also, you are counting on people like Dave Medina, or Anime4evah themselves not turning you in. I guess in all your throughts about how great it would be to do this you never once considered how much could go wrong ehh?

At any rate, at the cybercop crap, try having a look in the mirror. How many of you have gone out of your way to report copies of SFZ and Sapphire and Mega Man Pce being sold on ebay? The amount of money being made does not matter at this point, because it's all wrong, but now all the sudden you are ok with doing it yourself, because you are telling yourselves that its ok because if nothing else, you made pennies on the dollar, or gave them away at cost. Fuck all to the fact that its still totally and completely illegal and its not your IP at all to have pressed and sold to market. So if I'm the asshole cybercop, does that make you the little thieving bitch dirty/crooked cybercops? Yeah, thought so. :roll:

Just out of curiosity did we ever get a legal response on that bootlegged version of Sapphire that was released?

Quote from: BigusSchmuck on 03/05/2013, 12:20 PMJust out of curiosity did we ever get a legal response on that bootlegged version of Sapphire that was released?

All I ever saw posted here was the fake one assface photoshopped. I contacted Care4Data in Europe years back and as much as I could get out of them was that they no longer pressed, nor were capable of doing anything that was audio/data/audio related due to their software and equipment change. Whether this was true or not remains to be seen. If Assfaces newer copies are still being pressed by them, then obviously they were lying for whatever reason.

There is, practically speaking, no way in hell to legally release SFZ. It's entire existence was predicated on temporary deals that expired long ago (possibly before the game was even completed, which is probably why it didn't get released). This isn't an uncommon thing these days.

You can pirate it, or you can not have it. It's not like Another World or some Amstrad game.

The professor's insane zeal for JUSTICE!!! and legitimate authority is inflexible. Fundamentalism simply isn't practical in this (or any) situation. Legally speaking...this is totally illegal, zero question there. Morally speaking however, I have zero problem with this and I can't imagine anyone else being bothered either unless they define right and wrong entirely by laws. 

So Mike, do you have any ROMs at all? Didn't you download them or maybe back them up into physical media? OH NO! Comcast and Memorex profited from your piracy. LEGAL PARADOX! There is only one thing to do now, you know, time to shoot yourself in the head. :( Of course suicide is illegal and Remington will profit from the bullet you use, but at least you won't be able to commit any more crimes.

For a long time piracy was the only way to see Eyes on the Prize (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyes_on_the_Prize#section_1) due to dick bags squatting on the rights. Eventually corporations made enough (tax deductible) donations to get this very significant work back into circulation. This is NEVER going to happen with SFZ.

And contacting Sega...that's pretty funny. Suggesting that as anything but a joke betrays a total lack of understanding on this matter. It would take $50k in legal fees for them just to figure out who even had the right to sue who.

In addition to Eyes on the Prize I will mention 1987 What the Fuck is Going On? (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_(What_the_Fuck_Is_Going_On%3F)) which is IMPOSSIBLE to legally release. Even the first print was recalled and destroyed because it uses significant prior art. But it is art in itself. It's illegal to exist period, but a culture crime to bury it forever. What to do, what to do?!

Because of this when bootlegs started showing up (with obvious spelling errors on the sleeve to make it obvious it was a boot) it was unanimously considered a service and not theft. Only Abba would care to shut down the bootleggers and they never have. In the music world, for the most part, debates like this don't exist.

Quote from: PCEngineHell on 03/05/2013, 12:20 PMBut like I said, you are going to do what you want to do, and you clearly sound like you feel justified in doing so, like you have the right to do it, and someone with that mentality is just going to look for and make up any kind of excuse to justify their actions.
...
Fuck all to the fact that its still totally and completely illegal and its not your IP at all to have pressed and sold to market. So if I'm the asshole cybercop, does that make you the little thieving bitch dirty/crooked cybercops? Yeah, thought so. :roll:

So, you don't see where I'm coming from at all? You're welcome to disagree, but lumping me and NecroPhile in with lying, gouging shits like Fudoh is pretty extreme. (FYI, my "millennial cybercop" comment was directed at the Virtual Boy situation, not you.)

I agree some of this stuff is definitely a slippery slope. For example, ICOM or whatever they're called now is still around, they're still independent, and they're still making Shadowgate games. That said, other than the fact that any kind of pirating is illegal, making bootlegs for the Turbo Duo is quite a bit different than your Richard Stanley example - DVD is a mainstream format and pirated DVDs will hurt anyone trying to sell legitimate video. The Turbo Duo, on the other hand, is the most obtuse, archaic format around. No one gives a flying fuck about the TG16 userbase. No one is ever going to make more consoles. Whatever is played on a Duo doesn't affect IP holders one iota.

You seem to acknowledge emulation as a fact of life and you're right, there's no need for pirates to "preserve" these games. People can play them on their computer, their Xbox, their PSP, or their phone. They can burn CD-Rs and they can buy flash cards. So, what's the big deal if, out of the few thousand functional Duo's left in the world, 200 hundred crusty die-hard purists want to make a few discs so they can play the most insanely expensive CD games on original hardware without wearing out their lens? It's literally the only thing we can't do on original hardware. In the ransacked tomb of video game IP, it's the last sarcophagus. The amount of IP you're freaking out about is, like, five games. Most of us will pay up to $100 for a used Duo cd on ebay and everything else we can play on flash cards. If this were any other system, someone would already be selling reproduction carts.

If you prefer to stick to the letter of the law, that's fine. Some of my points are probably bullshit justifications, but there are also some damn good reasons for this. I don't want to see this place become a bastion of thieving pirates or emulating posers any more than you do, but the amount of "thievery" we're talking about is First Circle of Hell, "virtuous pagans" kind of stuff.  O:)

You see things pretty black and white. IMO, it's more of a continuum:
ETERNAL DAMNATION <--- gouging --- stealing homebrew --- stealing from independents --- stealing from corporations --- stealing abandonware --- TG16 pirating ---> NO BIG DEAL

Who are you guys actually trying to convince here, you, or me? You guys don't need to come up with spin and make up bs reasons to me as to why you feel justified in doing it. You already know its wrong. I know its wrong. Regardless, I'm not the holder of the rights to whatever IP you plan to bootleg for profit or whatever. If you get dragged into court, you can take your arguments there and see how well they hold up in front of a judge with the owner of the IP there suing you. Either way, I will not be a part of it. It will be totally 100 percent on you. You are going to do what you want, so whatever. Enjoy the consequences when they occur. Like I said, eventually someone will find out. And no, if you do it, your def not any better then Anim4Ever, regardless of the dollar amount involved. Once you choose to cross that line, it doesn't matter how much further you plan to walk, its too late.

And Zeta, if I had a

Quoteinsane zeal for JUSTICE!!! and legitimate authority

, then I'd be the one turning whomever in. I'm not. I am simply making a moral choice here to not partake in you guys illegal bullshit that will obviously have IRL consequences, legal or otherwise. You guys don't like that, go eat a bag of dicks. It's pretty fucking sickening to see a few of you people up in arms and raving and trying to explain how your illegal actions are totally justified, because you are getting what you want and you think no one will care, even so far as to the point that you all will attack anyone who does not verbally agree with this immoral, and totally illegal, choice you are making or supporting.

And for anyone who thinks the original IP owners wont care, contact them and see. It's all easy to assume they wont when you don't actually make any fucking effort to ask them, huh? Anyway, I'm done. You know its fucked up, if you do it anyway, and you get caught, its all on you. I wont be there supporting any fund raising for legal defense fees, thats for damn sure. You will be on your own, dealing with your own folly. Hope you can afford it, for your friends and families sake if nothing else.

I have to say..  I kinda see everyone's point here.  But, I am that guy that wants everyone to get along...so yeah...  I still have a hard time seeing fan translated games as dead wrong, but thats just me.  There's no reason for us to be at each other's throats tho.  :(

Quote from: PCEngineHell on 03/05/2013, 04:53 PMWho are you guys actually trying to convince here, you, or me?

Nobody, obviously.  As had been repeatedly stated, we know it's illegal but we don't consider it to be immoral or of much risk of prosecution, much like jaywalking or driving a couple mph over the speed limit on the freeway.

Quote from: PCEngineHell on 03/05/2013, 04:53 PMOnce you choose to cross that line, it doesn't matter how much further you plan to walk, its too late.

Nice horse.  How many hands is it?!?

Quote from: PCEngineHell on 03/05/2013, 04:53 PM... It's pretty fucking sickening to see a few of you people up in arms and raving... you all will attack anyone who does not verbally agree....

lolwut?  Who's calling who a bitch and who's telling who to eat dick?

Well with a fan translation of a game, your looking at in game dialogue and (sometimes) voice overs translated. The graphics, sounds, and music are, more often than not, still original and still part of that Copyright.

If your referring to a remake, that is a different story. Of course if anyone remembers the Fighters History bullshit between Capcom and Data East, it doesn't matter one fucking bit, if someone feels their IP is being copied, mimicked, etc. Legal shit is gonna happen and someone will be knocking at your door.

Quote from: PCEngineHell on 03/05/2013, 04:53 PM... It's pretty fucking sickening to see a few of you people up in arms and raving... you all will attack anyone who does not verbally agree....

Who are you directing this at? Be specific and stop this "you guys" stuff. We're just having a conversation. No one has done anything illegal. I'm open to the possibility that I haven't considered all of the factors or my reasoning is lazy. You have some good points, but I can't understand fathom why you're reacting so strongly. We not random scumbags (at least not random ones), we're the people you hang out with and talk about video games everyday. You may be a surly bastard sometimes, but I consider you a friend. Chill out and withhold judgement until someone actually does something.

Since you said I wouldn't do it, I emailed Sega and asked if they intend to ever release Space Fantasy Zone and if they legally hold the rights to the game now.

I assume the response will be DDDDUUUUURRRRRRRR, if I get a response at all...   but the proof is out, I am a man of my word and a man of action.

I got my fingers crossed that their response is, "you can have the rights for $100."

Quote from: TheClash603 on 03/05/2013, 07:47 PMSince you said I wouldn't do it, I emailed Sega and asked if they intend to ever release Space Fantasy Zone and if they legally hold the rights to the game now.

I assume the response will be DDDDUUUUURRRRRRRR, if I get a response at all...   but the proof is out, I am a man of my word and a man of action.

I got my fingers crossed that their response is, "you can have the rights for $100."

Be some shit if they actually were to respond.  :)

Quote from: TheClash603 on 03/05/2013, 07:47 PMI got my fingers crossed that their response is, "you can have the rights for $100."

lbr, thats prob a lot of money to sega these days

 :-({|=

Their response: "I asked everyone here, all eight of us, and nobody knows what a PC Engine is. Is it part of a Turbografx? I would check eBay."

Seriously, they have no idea WTF we are talking about. A 20 year old game that was never released, never intended for the US, and made by a company that no longer exists for a system few people even remember...?

I could care less about all the drama. If we can get some pressed discs made, I'll support it to the point that I'll buy them for the games I don't have and can't afford. If it never happens, oh well, no big deal.

People really need to mellow out. Otherwise this thread is gonna need to be moved to Fighting Street.

Quote from: TheClash603 on 02/26/2013, 07:37 PMBTW- Did anyone else think this thread was about CD games in which you needed to press run the most?

I did.

I find it funny that some of the people here arguing in favor of selling pressed cd's are also the same people who tell others that flash carts are immoral and to buy the real thing.

who?

meh, a burn't disc is good enough for me. Sounds like a lot of money to put up front too make these.

Watch Space Fantasy Zone gets a Wii U Download release next month by Sega.

I'll just burn disks of translated projects and slip them behind the real pce cd. My Duo-R plays them perfectly and I get some nice artwork to go along with it :D

Quote from: PunkCryborg on 03/06/2013, 04:31 PMI'll just burn disks of translated projects and slip them behind the real pce cd. My Duo-R plays them perfectly and I get some nice artwork to go along with it :D

Do they fit behind the actual CD, without scratching or anything?

Quote from: Bernie on 03/06/2013, 04:43 PM

Quote from: PunkCryborg on 03/06/2013, 04:31 PMI'll just burn disks of translated projects and slip them behind the real pce cd. My Duo-R plays them perfectly and I get some nice artwork to go along with it :D

Do they fit behind the actual CD, without scratching or anything?

You can always buy these cases to store the original game cd  and translated cd-r within a single jewelcase.

http://www.checkoutstore.com/STANDARD-Clear-Double-CD-Jewel-Case-p/clrjwcased.htm?gclid=CMOOgbif6bUCFc5AMgod42YAbQ

Nothing is going to get scratched until you really manhandle the stuff. I do this "stacking" thing too. Neither if my systems have any issues with CD-Rs. I only advocated the pressed CDs since it would be nice to have something more permanent and the arguments against it are unrealistic and silly. Also, Mike promised he would leave if we made this a group effort. That's worth a $100 donation right there.

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/06/2013, 07:14 PMNothing is going to get scratched until you really manhandle the stuff. I do this "stacking" thing too. Neither if my systems have any issues with CD-Rs. I only advocated the pressed CDs since it would be nice to have something more permanent and the arguments against it are unrealistic and silly. Also, Mike promised he would leave if we made this a group effort. That's worth a $100 donation right there.

Be nice Mr. Zeta.  A lot of us like Mike.  :) 

My system plays CDR burns perfectly too, but like some others, I would like the real deal.  But, it wont kill me to not haves it....the precious.....they stoles it from us..... Sorry, watched The Hobbit recently, and I'm in love...

Quote from: PunkCryborg on 03/06/2013, 04:31 PMI'll just burn disks of translated projects and slip them behind the real pce cd. My Duo-R plays them perfectly and I get some nice artwork to go along with it :D

I do this as well, by just sitting the 2nd disc on top of the first one (label to label). Works perfectly, takes up no extra space, and looks nice on the shelf.

Where/who do we donate this money to?

Well, since my DUO CD drive froze up on me today when trying to play an English-translated CDR, I'm at the point where I may just have to pay some pressing house the money for 500 pressed copies just so I can play the crazy thing!  Now if I just had the design skills to get a CD face design, jewel case back insert, and some sort of front insert/manual, then that would be great, but since I don't really have those skills, I guess that I'll just have to order a simple 500-CD spindle of plain front pressed CDs, then I can use one copy to play the game, and my sons can have 499 little frisbees to play with.  (Because 500 is the minimum order that can be placed for pressed CDs as far as I've been able to research, anyway.)

The irony of the situation is that my doing so will cost less than that single copy of Terraforming went for just a couple of hours ago, and I'll probably enjoy playing the English-translated RPG far more than I enjoy playing Terraforming.

I really don't see the point in wasting money on unofficial manuals and inserts. If someone wants to make a fake thing look real they can print the crap themselves. The important thing is the CD.

The hard part is going to be to get a pressing house to make the fucker correctly. See: the difficulties surrounding Mysterious Song.

Thankfully Sega was able to get to the bottom of the Space Fantasy Zone question.  I can only assume that they are working on a grand release as we speak.

"Nico B., Mar 06 08:05 (PST)

Hello,

Thank you for your input, though we are unable to make any official comments based on speculation. We suggest following online gaming news sites for official announcements or visiting the forums at SEGA.com to discuss things like this with the community.

Regards, Nico B. SEGA of America Customer Support ______________________________

Our staff has indicated that they believe this issue is resolved. If you feel it has not been resolved, please reply to this email or follow the link below to update your ticket:"

Man, where is 1-800-USA-SEGA when you need news and tips?

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/08/2013, 02:36 AMI really don't see the point in wasting money on unofficial manuals and inserts. If someone wants to make a fake thing look real they can print the crap themselves. The important thing is the CD.

The jewel case and inserts don't increase the cost much, not in terms of real money anyhow.  As a percentage it roughly doubles the cost, but who gives a poop when you're going from one buck to two? 

Quote from: guest on 03/08/2013, 10:05 AM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/08/2013, 02:36 AMI really don't see the point in wasting money on unofficial manuals and inserts. If someone wants to make a fake thing look real they can print the crap themselves. The important thing is the CD.

The jewel case and inserts don't increase the cost much, not in terms of real money anyhow.  As a percentage it roughly doubles the cost, but who gives a poop when you're going from one buck to two?

Because thats more profit for the company making the discs, and therefore more evil. Aren't you paying attention?


But seriously, doubling the cost to make fake-ass bird cage lining inserts is fine, but if it doubles the cost, no matter what the cost, then that means either half the number of copies are made or half the number of eventual releases are produced. I'm be glad to make quality art for people to print on their own. I'm OK with Illustrator and I can copy the PC Engine/TG-16 style sheet pretty accurately, I think.

As long as the inserts are extremely obviously not original, carry the Fuck eBay logo, a nice writeup inside about how they are non-profit releases, etc, then I think they are fine. Regardless, I don't think making this layout is the biggest thing holding back release. Getting the pressing house to agree to make them, and then actually make them correctly are more problematic. Then there is the matter of picking the project and funding it. I will kick in $100 toward certain projects like translated Ys or Starling Odyssey, but I'm not interested in stuff like Bonk 3 CD which is ONLY expensive because its uncommon and people want "rare" or "complete" shit. People who have never played Bonk CD aren't missing anything but every Turbo fan should play Y's IV.

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/08/2013, 02:36 AMThe hard part is going to be to get a pressing house to make the fucker correctly. See: the difficulties surrounding Mysterious Song.

It's not that hard.  Insanity and Pyramid Plunder went off without a hitch.

Unless you count me sending an Insanity master with a pinhole knock on the surface that they refused to even place in the machine...   but that's not a real problem.  That shit was remedied by pressing "Burn Again".

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/08/2013, 01:56 PMBut seriously, doubling the cost to make fake-ass bird cage lining inserts is fine, but if it doubles the cost, no matter what the cost, then that means either half the number of copies are made or half the number of eventual releases are produced.

I don't see why that would be.  500 is generally the minimum (you can do as few as 300 in cases, but it's a whopping $45 more to up it to 500), so either way I'm planning on 500 getting made.  1500 spindled discs would cost about the same as 500 cased, but what good would that do?  Unless I'm woefully underestimating demand (doubtful based on homebrew sales), I'll be lucky to get rid of the 500.

So we just send them a CD-R then? Why didn't this work for MS as easily?

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/08/2013, 02:52 PMSo we just send them a CD-R then?

As long as it's laid out correctly, yeah.

That's all I did with Insanity and PP.

Heck, PP's master was launched out with Alcohol 120% in like, 3 seconds.

NecroPhile - I'm strapped these days, but I'd chip in $50 if it helps. Much as I'd love a translated YsIV, I'm not comfortable contributing to it without approval from the team. IMO, SFZ is the place to start, then Motteke Tomago or a different translated game.

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/08/2013, 02:52 PMWhy didn't this work for MS as easily?

1) The Old Man seems to be the only person on the planet capable of troubleshooting CD-ROM2 pressing issues. Aetherbyte has him in-house, while both Revival Magazine and Frozen Utopia ran into replication problems until they consulted with him.
2) Murphy's Law seems to be the nature of the beast at FU. 

Quote from: VestCunt on 03/08/2013, 05:05 PM1) The Old Man seems to be the only person on the planet capable of troubleshooting CD-ROM2 pressing issues. Aetherbyte has him in-house, while both Revival Magazine and Frozen Utopia ran into replication problems until they consulted with him.

Hey, I know how it works, too.  However, I have a full-time job, on top of other commitments, including Aetherbyte projects.... which really cuts into figuring out other people's problems.

You are correct though, we are very fortunate to have OldMan around for numerous reasons.   He's gifted with old-school problem solving abilities, a bunch of old-ass hardware, and lots of free time.  :)


When Insanity was made, I did the entire cuesheet by hand with a calculator.    Doing time-stamps with a calculator is a bit odd.

QuoteThe Old Man seems to be the only person on the planet capable of troubleshooting CD-ROM2 pressing issues.

Not true. Building a CD is not as hard as people think. There does, however, appear to be a lot of confusion about how things -should- be laid out vs. how they are -actually- laid out. Most of the problems we have seen have been due to bad audio tracks, btw.

Quoteboth Revival Magazine and Frozen Utopia ran into replication problems

Which were fixed. Now there are 2 other people (besides Aetherbutt) who should know how to do it.

That said, I would not support pressing non-original material.

Having a real working disc is the most important thing, but having manual & insert is great.  Maybe it's just my ocd, I like things to look relatively nice & organized in my collection.

Quote from: guest on 03/08/2013, 05:05 PMNecro - I'm strapped these days, but I'd chip in $50 if it helps. Much as I'd love a translated YsIV, I'm not comfortable contributing to it without approval from the team. IMO, SFZ is the place to start, then Motteke Tomago or a different translated game.

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 03/08/2013, 02:52 PMWhy didn't this work for MS as easily?

1) The Old Man seems to be the only person on the planet capable of troubleshooting CD-ROM2 pressing issues. Aetherbutt has him in-house, while both Revival Magazine and Frozen Utopia ran into replication problems until they consulted with him.
2) Murphy's Law seems to be the nature of the beast at FU. 

For SFZ, it'll have to wait until one or all of us can make extra music tracks that fit the theme.  I haven't had any time to do it, especially with other projects that have fallen in my lap fairly recently.

As for FU, man, I hope JB & DA go out without a hitch.  MSR was a pain & then some!

QuoteI hope JB & DA go out without a hitch.  MSR was a pain & then some!

Programming and debugging is always a pain. Straightening out the audio was probably not easy, either.
And dealing with the presser because it is an odd cd format, yep.

But was making the master disc really that hard, once the audio was okay?
First time is always the hardest, because you don't know what to avoid. The second disc will be much easier,
because you've already seen (almost) all of the problems.

Quote from: ParanoiaDragon on 03/08/2013, 09:16 PMHaving a real working disc is the most important thing, but having manual & insert is great.  Maybe it's just my ocd, I like things to look relatively nice & organized in my collection.

It isn't because you're OCD, it's because you aren't OCD enough.

All the legit stuff in my collection is nice. I never buy anything lose.

However, all my fake shit needs to look fake. I can't have pirate junk infecting my real shit. Fake inserts are like...Flava Flave's fake gold teeth. Just...ghetto-ass garbage trying to look real.

I am all for pressing translated games such as ys IV or Xak III etc.... However, anything that already exists like bonk III or Dynastic hero I say no to.