Has anyone here even attempted to build a super grafx arcade card demo just to see what it can do?
Well, "Arcade Card" just means more assets so one would have to create such a huge pile of SGX assets that they wouldn't fit into a SCD...which is a LOT of shit for a home brew guy to make.
Chris Covell's SGX demos are pretty impressive, but they are really small and not anywhere near maxing out a SCD or HuCard.
I would love to see it, but it would mean a home brew team going above and beyond what Hudson or NEC ever did, which is asking an awful lot.
I suppose you could make something deliberately designed to waste memory, perhaps a slightly upgraded HuVideo spec?
This has come up in the past and it's actually not nearly as much work as Zeta makesit out to be. Arcade Card games that could not fit within Super CD space are not using 18 megs of space per load, just as SCD games aren't all pushing the 2 meg limit. ACD games are anyting using over 2 megs per load. Just the same, a demo making use of a Super Grafx ability that the PC Engine doesn't have, would be as simple as using two tile layers or surpassing the PCE's sprites per line limit.
The point of tech demos isn't to surpass the biggest most impressive fully polished games made at the time. That's why 16-bit console tech demo roms aren't all 100+ megs each.
But if someone were to attempt the kind of demo Zeta has in mind, although it would still be a lot of work, it could just be a recreation of a highly animated and detailed street fighting game stage with player sprites running through animations without having gameplay programmed in.
A good SGX tech demo, will be the first level (not entirely) of final fight ..
Quote from: touko on 04/21/2013, 12:38 PMA good SGX tech demo, will be the first level (not entirely) of final fight ..
What's in Final Fight that can't be done as a regular ACD?
i think nothing .
I think also, that you don't need ACD for that too .
A scd-rom² would be enough .
If you wanted to surpass the amount of sprites/characters on screen at one time that were presented on the Sega CD and Snes versions, then the Supergrafx would come in handy for Final Fight.
Quote from: touko on 04/21/2013, 01:37 PMi think nothing .
I think also, that you don't need ACD for that too .
A scd-rom² would be enough .
...then why did you suggest it?
Quote from: CrackTiger on 04/21/2013, 11:37 AMThis has come up in the past and it's actually not nearly as much work as Zeta makesit out to be.
Says a person who doesn't program games. ;)
To make a demo that is actually worthy of the hardware being used, and is something that isn't exactly doable otherwise, is effort from both the programmers involved, and the artists.
It sounds easy on paper. Everything does. That doesn't mean it is.
Well, strictly speaking, if you write code on a CD that will put "Hello World" into the Arcade Card somewhere, retrieve it from the AC and put it on the screen using the secondary graphics chip to do it...there you go, a demo that requires a SGX and an AC...even though its completely indistinguishable from a HuCARD demo.
Since the AC does nothing but store stuff, in order to really say "this game is an Arcade Card game" you'd need to make something TOO BIG for a SCD. That's not...too hard, as long as its a huge pile of sound or FMV. Its basically not possible to fill the AC with code unless you are running SETI@Home on it or some shit so what kind of graphics and sound fill the AC? The easiest thing, it seems to me, is video.
So is it possible to hack the HuVIDEO spec to the point where it won't run on a standard PCE but will run on a SGX? Like, maybe just adding 10 lines of resolution (ie: ten fewer lines of black box) and use the two GPUs in tandem to make it happen?
That would satisfy the SGX requirement, but streaming HuVIDEO doesn't use very much RAM so maybe cache a shitload of it and come up with something else for the CDROM2 to load.
Or...maybe overlays are possible? Could Road Prosecutor or Time Gal be make for SGX if one GPU did the HuVIDEO and the other did the overlays? If entire levels were loaded into the ACD to avoid (maybe) the lag that normal comes from seeking lasers in LD based games.
Just thinking out loud here...
Quote from: Psycho Arkhan on 04/21/2013, 05:15 PMQuote from: CrackTiger on 04/21/2013, 11:37 AMThis has come up in the past and it's actually not nearly as much work as Zeta makesit out to be.
Says a person who doesn't program games. ;)
To make a demo that is actually worthy of the hardware being used, and is something that isn't exactly doable otherwise, is effort from both the programmers involved, and the artists.
It sounds easy on paper. Everything does. That doesn't mean it is.
All tech demos (even ones for PCE CD2) are a lot of work that could be spent towards making full games. What I meant is that you don't have to max out the SuperGrafx and Arcade Card space to pull off something that does what a PC Engine Super CD can't. And even if you did put all that work into maxing it out, without the average person fully appreciating exactly what is going on under the hood, a SuperGrafx/ACD maxing demo won't necessarily look more impressive to many people than a similar demo using different graphics that barely pushes into SGX/ACD territory. Many people can't tell what makes Sapphire special and think that it just looks like a SCD game. Many of those same people are still blown away by simple effects in relatively small cart games, like sprite jumbles, pixelization, wavy stuff, etc.
If you took the most packed ACD games like Fatal Fury Special, World Heroes 2 and Sapphire, and added an extra tile layer and used the extra sprites for things like the ref in WH2 and misc people moving around in the Neo Geo fighter bgs, would the average person really appreciate it enough? Even with all the PCE hate, it's surprising how much respect those games get, even when compared to SFC WH2 and FFS, which have the kind of background layering that the SuperGrafx could provide. All it took was a handful of SuperGrafx games to convince everyone to stop supporting it, because they didn't think that consumers would appreciate the difference.
Quote from: SignOfZeta on 04/21/2013, 03:22 PM...then why did you suggest it?
Oups,sorry i have probably not understood your question ...
You suggested a SGX demo with AC no ??
Or maybe you want absolutely sgx+AC ??
This why i suggested a final fight demo on sgx , but with a simple scd-rom² ...
I think a final fight demo (close to coin-op) on sgx is more rewarding, than a video,and why use a sgx for a video ???
A single pce with AC can do that too, and i think also that a sgx with scd is not very common, and if you add also an AC ](*,)
Quote from: touko on 04/22/2013, 03:20 AMQuote from: SignOfZeta on 04/21/2013, 03:22 PM...then why did you suggest it?
Oups,sorry i have probably not understood your question ...
You suggested a SGX demo with AC no ??
Or maybe you want absolutely sgx+AC ??
This why i suggested a final fight demo on sgx , but with a simple scd-rom² ...
I think a final fight demo (close to coin-op) on sgx is more rewarding, than a video,and why use a sgx for a video ???
A single pce with AC can do that too, and i think also that a sgx with scd is not very common, and if you add also an AC ](*,)
Its more or less if it could be done etc and if the rewards are worth it. It would be pretty neat to see Dragon's Lair or Timegal take advantage of the arcade card, but as others have mentioned the super grafx part may not be necessary. Now if someone could create a homemade Arcadecard or a Supergrafx clone that would make all this that much better.
Ok, but if you don't have the need of a second layer, and the add of 64 sprites, all can be done with a classic PCE+AC ..
Else, CPU power is the same on both, then you can not do a lot better on SGX side ..
Do you not think its possible to devise an enhanced HuVIDEO spec that requires the SGX?
Quote from: SignOfZeta on 04/22/2013, 02:26 PMDo you not think its possible to devise an enhanced HuVIDEO spec that requires the SGX?
i think no, because the sgx, is a PCE 1.5, just with a second vdc, and ram,and for video/audio processing, it's nothing else than a PCE ..
For that, i think than Md is more capable ..
Final Fight is hard to do, at least properly. I've looked into a bunch of this stuff, and even with 128 sprites it's hard to do right. If you think of Crest of Wolf, with its 4 (large) (wait, or is it 3.5?) sprites on-screen, Final fight could possibly handle 8, scaled down FF sprites, but then no weapons. You don't need 8 people on screen unless IIRC you're doing an arcade perfect conversion, you could do something like 5 and have some of the weapons.
What you migth be able to do nicely is a cut-down version of Sunset riders. But it would still be hard to make a SNES port, you'd have to aim for something slightly nicer than the MD version.
tl;dr: Supergrafx and it's 128 sprites is very attractive, and 2 MB+ of sprite data isn't hard to use, but it's questionable whether it's enough for some things.
Quote from: CrackTiger on 04/21/2013, 06:02 PMAll tech demos (even ones for PCE CD2) are a lot of work that could be spent towards making full games.
But if those tech demos are exploring programming techniques or special effects that might end up in games, I think it is worth it : ) I also support demos as programming practice as they encourage optimized code and exploring the capabilities of a system, all things which can be beneficial come game-time.
Quote from: soop on 05/13/2013, 10:34 AMFinal Fight is hard to do, at least properly. I've looked into a bunch of this stuff, and even with 128 sprites it's hard to do right. If you think of Crest of Wolf, with its 4 (large) (wait, or is it 3.5?) sprites on-screen, Final fight could possibly handle 8, scaled down FF sprites, but then no weapons. You don't need 8 people on screen unless IIRC you're doing an arcade perfect conversion, you could do something like 5 and have some of the weapons.
...
tl;dr: Supergrafx and it's 128 sprites is very attractive, and 2 MB+ of sprite data isn't hard to use, but it's questionable whether it's enough for some things.
Well, I think the SGX could come up with something that could handily match or better what was done on the SNES or Genesis, at least, even if arcade perfection is still something of a pipe dream. I'd rather see an original brawler, however. I've always preferred the Streets of Rage series due to the characters having more moves and options in combat, and I think something along those lines would be a better testament to the SGX than a rehash of something that is certainly historically important but has been superceded in just about every way since.
I seriously hope that if someone goes through the massive ordeal of making a Arcade Card SGX game that it isn't Final Fucking Fight. That game is so overrated. Huge sprites, sure, but not much to do compared to...almost any other beat 'em up.
Tech demo coding often involves doing things that basically remove all possibility of making a game because you're blowing all your resources doing some goony screen effect.
Quote from: SignOfZeta on 05/13/2013, 08:54 PMI seriously hope that if someone goes through the massive ordeal of making a Arcade Card SGX game that it isn't Final Fucking Fight. That game is so overrated. Huge sprites, sure, but not much to do compared to...almost any other beat 'em up.
Damn straight.
Quote from: SignOfZeta on 05/13/2013, 08:54 PMI seriously hope that if someone goes through the massive ordeal of making a Arcade Card SGX game that it isn't Final Fucking Fight. That game is so overrated. Huge sprites, sure, but not much to do compared to...almost any other beat 'em up.
Well of course if someone redid Mighty Final Fight I wouldn't be opposed to it...
Quote from: SignOfZeta on 05/13/2013, 08:54 PMThat game is so overrated. Huge sprites, sure, but not much to do compared to...almost any other beat 'em up.
I have to disagree. it not only showed huge sprites for that time, it also had supersmooth animations, great and fast playability, brilliant colors and graphics and a very unique style among that genre. the only thing that sucked was the BGM.
It literally put everything to big cow crap what came out prior to it.
sure I am talking arcade only.
I will aways see it as a milestone in the Beat 'n' walk genre, and will keep a special place in my nostaglia heart.
And nn arcade in '89 without a final fight was no arcade.
Quote from: Tatsujin on 05/13/2013, 11:19 PMQuote from: SignOfZeta on 05/13/2013, 08:54 PMThat game is so overrated. Huge sprites, sure, but not much to do compared to...almost any other beat 'em up.
I have to disagree. it not only showed huge sprites for that time, it also had supersmooth animations, great and fast playability, brilliant colors and graphics and a very unique style among that genre. the only thing that sucked was the BGM.
It literally put everything to big cow crap what came out prior to it.
sure I am talking arcade only.
I will aways see it as a milestone in the Beat 'n' walk genre, and will keep a special place in my nostaglia heart.
And nn arcade in '89 without a final fight was no arcade.
Streets of Rage, the Kunio Series, Double Dragon, Golden Axe, etc etc. All of these games have superior gameplay. Capcom forgot to add moves and shit!
The first Golden Axe does not have more moves and shit, by far not/ it only had the beasts to ride and the magics which made it so fun to play. moves were almost straight forward and not much to add. kuni series and DD plays like shit compared, and also those have not more moves, those just play much more tredious. Sor came out far later (and also only improved a lot with part II).
FF had that great shoulder throw technics (too nicely keep all your enemies on one side).
You had "real rapid"-punch, air kick, bruce lee cat kick, air kick to elbow etc. drop, shoulder throw, pile driver, grab and knee-strike, jump off the wall to kick, punch-grab-knee-strike to shoulder throw/pile driver combo, tons of itmes to mess around, etc. plus each players special move (energy absorbing).
so FF had a lot of moves for its time. don't tell me bullshit.
and also a perfect 2P mode.
Final Fight doesn't let you sit on a dude and beat on his head. It doesn't let you throw a guy and then have P2 catch him in mid air. Can you hold a dude from behind while P2 beats on him? I can't remember.
Final Fight doesn't even have running. It's pathetic!
Even the Kunio sports games are better beat 'me ups than Final Fight.
It just had other things, but it hadn't less things :idea: and what it had was great :!:
And you're describing also things above which weren't invented before 1992/1993.
Completely agree with Tats, completely disagree with Zeta. Final Fight was streets ahead of everything else out there. I love the music too.
Everything that it wasn't, it made possible. In fact, I think if you're comparing contemporaries, I think the best you're gonna get is Double Dragon.
@spenoza, I think the main limitations with the PC Engine hardware (for this type of thing) is the minimum 16x16 sprite blocks, which uses unnecessary resource for things like knives (or with Sunset Riders, bullets).
Although, in fact checking I've just found a Bonknuts post: http://forums.magicengine.com/en/viewtopic.php?p=13823&sid=851ae015247bd87b9219eeccbf16e2bc in which he says that the max MD sprites on screen is 80. I thought it was 96.
And considering the ... How the hell does Final Fight CD work. It's still using the Megadrives VDU right?
Just from that thread it makes it seem like a really good version of Final Fight or Sunset Riders would be possible...
Quote from: Tatsujin on 05/14/2013, 12:42 AMIt just had other things, but it hadn't less things :idea: and what it had was great :!:
And you're describing also things above which weren't invented before 1992/1993.
I'm describing things that were in 80s Famicom games or arcade games from Technos. You could do that stuff in Double Dragon or Kunio.
Quote from: SignOfZeta on 05/14/2013, 04:53 AMQuote from: Tatsujin on 05/14/2013, 12:42 AMIt just had other things, but it hadn't less things :idea: and what it had was great :!:
And you're describing also things above which weren't invented before 1992/1993.
I'm describing things that were in 80s Famicom games or arcade games from Technos. You could do that stuff in Double Dragon or Kunio.
So there it be. In exchange you couldn't do other things in your mentioned "favorites" that could be done in Final Fight, plus it looked and played like 10x the better than anything prior to it.
The hell anyway. Regarding your stupid logic and arguments an R-Type f.e. must be a bad game too, since it basically just does the same stuff as already seen in Gradius, just in a different way.
So fuck every even so great game released after Double Dragon and Gradius. Because they just plain suck.
Zeta is not the biggest fan of Final Fight, which we can all agree is monotonous and tedious (a hallmark of the beat-em-up genre! Ha!), but I know he enjoyed RENEGADE on NES—I loved that damn game. A beat-em-up without subway stages is a farce.
Anyway, I love how passionate Tats is about Final Fight.
But Zeta had the best line when he said:
Quote from: SignOfZeta on 05/14/2013, 12:32 AMEven the Kunio sports games are better beat 'me ups than Final Fight.
That is precious!
ALSO: Hahahahaha. Kunio Soccer. :pcgs:
I thought the arcade version of Ninja Gaiden was great bitd. Sure it had some flaws, such as shitty hit detection, but back then I could care less. I always looked forward to losing my last life to see the continue screen. Dude tied down and a saw blade descending on him. Cool shit!
Quote from: Tatsujin on 05/14/2013, 05:10 AMQuote from: SignOfZeta on 05/14/2013, 04:53 AMQuote from: Tatsujin on 05/14/2013, 12:42 AMIt just had other things, but it hadn't less things :idea: and what it had was great :!:
And you're describing also things above which weren't invented before 1992/1993.
I'm describing things that were in 80s Famicom games or arcade games from Technos. You could do that stuff in Double Dragon or Kunio.
So there it be. In exchange you couldn't do other things in your mentioned "favorites" that could be done in Final Fight, plus it looked and played like 10x the better than anything prior to it.
The hell anyway. Regarding your stupid logic and arguments an R-Type f.e. must be a bad game too, since it basically just does the same stuff as already seen in Gradius, just in a different way.
So fuck every even so great game released after Double Dragon and Gradius. Because they just plain suck.
Its not that Final Fight sucks, its just that its boring. Not even being able to run is ridiculous but there even by the standards of beat 'em ups its monotonous.
Quote from: soop on 05/13/2013, 10:34 AMFinal Fight is hard to do, at least properly. I've looked into a bunch of this stuff, and even with 128 sprites it's hard to do right. If you think of Crest of Wolf, with its 4 (large) (wait, or is it 3.5?) sprites on-screen, Final fight could possibly handle 8, scaled down FF sprites, but then no weapons. You don't need 8 people on screen unless IIRC you're doing an arcade perfect conversion, you could do something like 5 and have some of the weapons.
What you migth be able to do nicely is a cut-down version of Sunset riders. But it would still be hard to make a SNES port, you'd have to aim for something slightly nicer than the MD version.
tl;dr: Supergrafx and it's 128 sprites is very attractive, and 2 MB+ of sprite data isn't hard to use, but it's questionable whether it's enough for some things.
Technicaly, is not difficult to make it for SGX ...
if you have enough storage for datas, sgx can handle it easily .
For PCE the only big problem is sprites/line limit, is slightly too low, but no probs with SGX .
The genesis version is good because you have :
1 - genesis sprites /line limit is 20 (16 pixels sprites) in 320 pixels mode .
2- MCD storage, you have at least 512 Ko of ram (+ 256 ko )
3- No samples/musics, all of this is done also by MCD (you save a lot of genesis cycles ) .
I think if it is done on SGX+SCD+AC, you can make a port close to acade perfect, even without AC is doable IMO .
I just don't understand the lack of love for Final Fight T___T
I'm assuming now that most of the people involved are in their 30's and remember actually playing this game in the arcade? Goodness.
For me, it was one of the most atmospheric games. Weapons, breakable objects, a choice of THREE noticeably different characters that weren't just a ryu/ken, billy/jimmy combo, special moves, huge sprites, bonus stages... even the 1 point for continues that showed you how good someone ACTUALLY was.
well, you might take all of that for granted, but without Final Fight, we wouldn't have a crapload of other games that I like.
And Final Fight was way better than it's precursors than they were over it. Even AVP isn't leaps and bounds better, and that was 5 years later.
Quote from: soop on 05/14/2013, 08:12 AMI just don't understand the lack of love for Final Fight T___T
I'm assuming now that most of the people involved are in their 30's and remember actually playing this game in the arcade? Goodness.
For me, it was one of the most atmospheric games. Weapons, breakable objects, a choice of THREE noticeably different characters that weren't just a ryu/ken, billy/jimmy combo, special moves, huge sprites, bonus stages... even the 1 point for continues that showed you how good someone ACTUALLY was.
well, you might take all of that for granted, but without Final Fight, we wouldn't have a crapload of other games that I like.
And Final Fight was way better than it's precursors than they were over it. Even AVP isn't leaps and bounds better, and that was 5 years later.
Thats why I suggested Mighty Final Fight. :P
Final Fight was quite refreshing in the day. You had fewer moves than in Double Dragon, but the sprites were a lot larger and the gameplay was a lot easier to deal with. But the beat 'em up genre has grown a bit since then. Streets of Rage 2 gives your characters an awful lot of moves to play with while still having great gameplay and large sprites. And that's where the PC Engine falls down. The SNES and Genesis both had a large number of good beat 'em ups, but the PC Engine did not. Sure, Double Dragon II and Kunio were great, but they were sort of a different style. The PCE had, what, Crest of Wolf? That's the game that plays most like the rest, but is weak-sauce in move options and animation.
I'm hoping some homebrew action takes up the call.
Quote from: guest on 05/14/2013, 10:06 PMFinal Fight was quite refreshing in the day. You had fewer moves than in Double Dragon, but the sprites were a lot larger and the gameplay was a lot easier to deal with. But the beat 'em up genre has grown a bit since then. Streets of Rage 2 gives your characters an awful lot of moves to play with while still having great gameplay and large sprites. And that's where the PC Engine falls down. The SNES and Genesis both had a large number of good beat 'em ups, but the PC Engine did not. Sure, Double Dragon II and Kunio were great, but they were sort of a different style. The PCE had, what, Crest of Wolf? That's the game that plays most like the rest, but is weak-sauce in move options and animation.
I'm hoping some homebrew action takes up the call.
Yeah Crest of Wolf had the sprite size, but was severely let down by sprite restrictions.
For some reason, I doubt the homebrew scene will be able to do something as good as Crest of Woflcopter.
Quote from: guest on 05/15/2013, 11:04 AMFor some reason, I doubt the homebrew scene will be able to do something as good as Crest of Woflcopter.
http://youtu.be/T5Xl0Qry-hA
Quote from: guest on 05/15/2013, 11:04 AMFor some reason, I doubt the homebrew scene will be able to do something as good as Crest of Woflcopter.
We've started working on Dragon Arm, it'll crush & consume Crest of Riot Zone! I don't know how much I'm allowed to say, but the beginings of our work look promising, though, I personally think we'll go with a smaller sprite size compared to Riot City to ensure we have 2 player & decent amount of enemies, though, I'm no coder, so that's up to Nod.
Kewl news :)
Don't misunderstand me, as we still have JB to finish up first before Dragon Arm goes into full gear, but we have gone into the first phase, & are planning on it being our 3rd game.
Quote from: guest on 05/15/2013, 11:04 AMFor some reason, I doubt the homebrew scene will be able to do something as good as Crest of Woflcopter.
Sorry but IMO crest of wolf is terrible .
Even the shitty arcade version is far better .
chest of rolf
For a good PCE beat, small sprites is better (32*32), but with a large variety of moves, and 5/6 sprites at same time .
Quote from: touko on 05/16/2013, 06:14 AMand 5/6 sprites at same time .
Our American friends here would think that this isn't even one whole sprite ;)
LOL ..
A good brawler, is not a SF2 like game (1 vs 1),with a side scrolling :mrgreen: ..
And with big sprites, the game will be very boring in 2 players mode .
I'd rather see a Super Grafx China Warrior game with sprites that are two screens tall.
Why not make three (^.^)
Quote from: ParanoiaDragon on 05/16/2013, 01:21 AMQuote from: guest on 05/15/2013, 11:04 AMFor some reason, I doubt the homebrew scene will be able to do something as good as Crest of Woflcopter.
We've started working on Dragon Arm, it'll crush & consume Crest of Riot Zone! I don't know how much I'm allowed to say, but the beginings of our work look promising, though, I personally think we'll go with a smaller sprite size compared to Riot City to ensure we have 2 player & decent amount of enemies, though, I'm no coder, so that's up to Nod.
Quote from: Tatsujin on 05/16/2013, 01:31 AMKewl news :)
This definitely is excellent news!
This is one of my favorite threads - gives me goosebumps :D
The other two are the 68k/6280 thread and the bubble bobble thread. Not that anyone cares.
China Warrior sucks ass. :)
Quote from: Bernie on 06/07/2013, 06:18 AMChina Warrior sucks ass. :)
Absolutely. It sucks the cutest, juiciest, sweetest ass in the cosmos. I WANT SOME. :pcgs:
Quote from: SignOfZeta on 04/21/2013, 12:51 PMQuote from: touko on 04/21/2013, 12:38 PMA good SGX tech demo, will be the first level (not entirely) of final fight ..
What's in Final Fight that can't be done as a regular ACD?
I had a discussion with stef (the gens's dev, and other geny tech demos) on the feasibility of FF ..
And it's very difficult, i think, to make a better version than geny one,even with AC ..
Why ???
PCE or SGX don't have a good dma to put data in vram quickly in vblank, all should be done with CPU .
If you keep the originals arcade sprites, each sprite update is about 3ko of data .
But the size of all sprites sheets must be compressed to fit in AC, and depacked on the fly.
I think is too much for 6280 alone ..
But i don't know how geny version is close to arcade ..
Quote from: touko on 10/23/2013, 04:11 AMQuote from: SignOfZeta on 04/21/2013, 12:51 PMQuote from: touko on 04/21/2013, 12:38 PMA good SGX tech demo, will be the first level (not entirely) of final fight ..
What's in Final Fight that can't be done as a regular ACD?
I had a discussion with stef (the gens's dev, and other geny tech demos) on the feasibility of FF ..
And it's very difficult, i think, to make a better version than geny one,even with AC ..
Why ???
PCE or SGX don't have a good dma to put data in vram quickly in vblank, all should be done with CPU .
If you keep the originals arcade sprites, each sprite update is about 3ko of data .
But the size of all sprites sheets must be compressed to fit in AC, and depacked on the fly.
I think is too much for 6280 alone ..
But i don't know how geny version is close to arcade ..
Stef is very talented and knowledgeable when it comes to Mega Drive, but always seems to not be very familar with the PC Engine and always has the same conclusion/answer: MD>PCE. What it sounds like he's describing is what the PCE is supposed to be superior at. If you try to do things the wrong way for PCE, then of course it won't turn out as good as the hardware a particular method is designed for.
We already have Sapphire out performing any other 16-bit console game for number of sprite frames. It's a no-brainer.
The Sega-CD port of Final Fight isn't very good overall for the hardware and is very far off from the arcade. It just happened to be the best console port until the Capcom Collections.
QuotePCE or SGX don't have a good dma to put data in vram quickly in vblank, all should be done with CPU .
No, but if the data is in a spare area of VRAM, it can be dma'd to where it needs to be quickly. Which allows you to use the rest of the frame to refill the transfer area....
QuoteIf you keep the originals arcade sprites, each sprite update is about 3ko of data .
But the size of all sprites sheets must be compressed to fit in AC, and depacked on the fly.
Why must it be compressed? The Arcade card has more memory than the system 3.0 card (iirc). In any case, can't it be loaded into adpcm memory and sent from there? (64K adpcm memory + direct to vram writing from adpcm.... maybe not dma speed, but very close, I'd bet.)
Honestly, pushing 3K of data per frame sounds doable to me....
@blacktiger: yes you're right, i did some tests, and i can refresh 5 sprites (arcade sized) without any optimisations, and with a sprites animation @30fps,and it uses 50% of CPU cycles .
But if MD has all the arcade patterns (however i doubt), it's impossible to fit 500 ko/caracters without any very good compression,even with AC ..
QuoteThe Sega-CD port of Final Fight isn't very good overall for the hardware and is very far off from the arcade. It just happened to be the best console port until the Capcom Collections.
And i doubt heavily that capcom was able to fit all arcade animations in 768 ko of cache .
QuoteNo, but if the data is in a spare area of VRAM, it can be dma'd to where it needs to be quickly. Which allows you to use the rest of the frame to refill the transfer area....
There are too many datas, and of course you need to have a cache in vram of each caracter.
in my tests 50% is for a transfer of half size of data/ frame for a 30fps anim.
QuoteWhy must it be compressed? The Arcade card has more memory than the system 3.0 card (iirc). In any case, can't it be loaded into adpcm memory and sent from there? (64K adpcm memory + direct to vram writing from adpcm.... maybe not dma speed, but very close, I'd bet.)
Honestly, pushing 3K of data per frame sounds doable to me....
In fact the problem is not transfer, is doable,it's all sprites patterns .
For exemple,the sprite sheet of axel, his size in arcade version is about 500 ko ..
For main caracters (cody,guy haggar), is 3x larger, stef told me that md version has all the coin op animations ...