Wow, such a good game. :shock:
It's quite a masterpiece of game design. Whole game, looks, sounds and plays amazing. :)
Presentation is of a league of it's own.
I've gotten 100%, and still feel like doing more. Maria!
One of my favorite levels is Stage 5. Nice long ship level, with a great boss fight.
Though, every level is my favorite. ;)
I have heard Good Things about Rondo of Castlevania. (https://junk.tg-16.com/images/pcds.png)
i own the game since 2 years and i never played it...shame on me, but iam to busy with my RPGs at the moment. :D
#-o
He who doth not use should sell 💱💹
Sent from my Lumia 520 on Scabb Island using Tapatalk
My favourite stage is Stage 4, since it feels like a living, breathing dungeon: You can follow the rolling balls down the hole and along their path back up again to the dude who throws them. Classy.
soo much "unnecessary" stuff to discover.
Quote from: ccovell on 01/16/2014, 08:52 AMMy favourite stage is Stage 4, since it feels like a living, breathing dungeon: You can follow the rolling balls down the hole and along their path back up again to the dude who throws them. Classy.
Or if you're Maria you can just double jump. ;)
I wonder why Dracula is so young?
Quote from: PukeSter on 01/16/2014, 09:35 AMQuote from: ccovell on 01/16/2014, 08:52 AMMy favourite stage is Stage 4, since it feels like a living, breathing dungeon: You can follow the rolling balls down the hole and along their path back up again to the dude who throws them. Classy.
Or if you're Maria you can just double jump. ;)
I wonder why Dracula is so young?
He's a vampire.
Quote from: CrackTiger on 01/16/2014, 12:26 PMQuote from: PukeSter on 01/16/2014, 09:35 AMQuote from: ccovell on 01/16/2014, 08:52 AMMy favourite stage is Stage 4, since it feels like a living, breathing dungeon: You can follow the rolling balls down the hole and along their path back up again to the dude who throws them. Classy.
Or if you're Maria you can just double jump. ;)
I wonder why Dracula is so young?
He's a vampire.
Yes, but...
He's older in the other games.
I find it funny that Dracula is way older in SOTN (takes place only a few years after, even has the goatee in the prologue)
Quote from: PukeSter on 01/16/2014, 02:30 PMQuote from: CrackTiger on 01/16/2014, 12:26 PMQuote from: PukeSter on 01/16/2014, 09:35 AMQuote from: ccovell on 01/16/2014, 08:52 AMMy favourite stage is Stage 4, since it feels like a living, breathing dungeon: You can follow the rolling balls down the hole and along their path back up again to the dude who throws them. Classy.
Or if you're Maria you can just double jump. ;)
I wonder why Dracula is so young?
He's a vampire.
Yes, but...
He's older in the other games.
I find it funny that Dracula is way older in SOTN (takes place only a few years after, even has the goatee in the prologue)
So what you meant was, "why does Dracula look older in games that came later?"
Quote from: CrackTiger on 01/16/2014, 02:35 PMQuote from: PukeSter on 01/16/2014, 02:30 PMQuote from: CrackTiger on 01/16/2014, 12:26 PMQuote from: PukeSter on 01/16/2014, 09:35 AMQuote from: ccovell on 01/16/2014, 08:52 AMMy favourite stage is Stage 4, since it feels like a living, breathing dungeon: You can follow the rolling balls down the hole and along their path back up again to the dude who throws them. Classy.
Or if you're Maria you can just double jump. ;)
I wonder why Dracula is so young?
He's a vampire.
Yes, but...
He's older in the other games.
I find it funny that Dracula is way older in SOTN (takes place only a few years after, even has the goatee in the prologue)
So what you meant was, "why does Dracula look older in games that came later?"
No earlier too...
Quote from: gbapalyer on 01/16/2014, 08:00 AMi own the game since 2 years and i never played it...shame on me, but iam to busy with my RPGs at the moment. :D
BSlap.jpg
He's not human, thus normal aging and appearances do not apply. Haven't you seen Bram Stoker's Dracula?
Quote from: PukeSter on 01/16/2014, 04:53 PMQuote from: CrackTiger on 01/16/2014, 02:35 PMQuote from: PukeSter on 01/16/2014, 02:30 PMQuote from: CrackTiger on 01/16/2014, 12:26 PMQuote from: PukeSter on 01/16/2014, 09:35 AMQuote from: ccovell on 01/16/2014, 08:52 AMMy favourite stage is Stage 4, since it feels like a living, breathing dungeon: You can follow the rolling balls down the hole and along their path back up again to the dude who throws them. Classy.
Or if you're Maria you can just double jump. ;)
I wonder why Dracula is so young?
He's a vampire.
Yes, but...
He's older in the other games.
I find it funny that Dracula is way older in SOTN (takes place only a few years after, even has the goatee in the prologue)
So what you meant was, "why does Dracula look older in games that came later?"
No earlier too...
He was monstrous in the original and a ghost in Simon's Quest. Otherwise the NES, MD, SNES, PCE and X68k look similar off the top of my head.
Quote from: guest on 01/16/2014, 05:47 AMWow, such a good game. :shock:
It's quite a masterpiece of game design. Whole game, looks, sounds and plays amazing. :)
Presentation is of a league of it's own.
I've gotten 100%, and still feel like doing more. Maria!
One of my favorite levels is Stage 5. Nice long ship level, with a great boss fight.
Though, every level is my favorite. ;)
I disagree, so do most of the people on this site, rushed, poor grafx, terrible music. The Legendary Ax II beats it on all fronts.
Rondo is the most piss poor example of botched/rushed gameplay mechanics I've ever seen. The animation is clunky, the hit detection is terrible, and the controls are not responsive at ALL. The only saving grace WOULD be the redbook audio, but even that sounds like a drunken dwarf farting in an auditorium. Just awful. Night Creatures is infinitely better.
Quote from: fragmare on 01/16/2014, 07:38 PMRondo is the most piss poor example of botched/rushed gameplay mechanics I've ever seen. The animation is clunky, the hit detection is terrible, and the controls are not responsive at ALL. The only saving grace WOULD be the redbook audio, but even that sounds like a drunken dwarf farting in an auditorium. Just awful. Night Creatures is infinitely better.
This joke was already attempted.
Quote from: galam on 01/16/2014, 07:50 PMThis joke was already attempted.
Yet neither were funny. You can joke about alot of things here at PCFX, but saying Rondo is an overrated or terrible game gets you put in the fucking SNERD closet for life.
Rondo for SCD usually gets ranked in my top 3 PCE/Turbo games and easily in my top 10 favorites of all times for all consoles.
Quote from: JoshTurboTrollX-16 on 01/17/2014, 11:49 AMQuote from: galam on 01/16/2014, 07:50 PMThis joke was already attempted.
Yet neither were funny. You can joke about alot of things here at PCFX, but saying Rondo is an overrated or terrible game gets you put in the fucking SNERD closet for life.
Rondo for SCD usually gets ranked in my top 3 PCE/Turbo games and easily in my top 10 favorites of all times for all consoles.
We do have a few of those non-jokers around here.
Rondo is one of the greatest games i have ever played in my whole Life. Konami left the level based castlevania games off with a bang. Its basically perfect.
I'll go one step further and say it's the best game ever made. I need to get another real copy sometime soon.I saw one at a store recently but they wanted to much for a beat up copy.
I will admit then when I first got Rondo back in the day I was initially disappointed.
The slideshow intro, the encounter with death, and initial stage before entering the castle seemed a little lackluster for all the hype the game was getting...
Of course, the changed as soon as I entered the castle...
I really enjoyed Rondo, but for some reason I like the x68k Dracula just a hair more... I think its has to do with the variety of music in the 68k game. Either way though, Rondo is a masterpiece!
Quote from: td741 on 01/18/2014, 10:13 AMI will admit then when I first got Rondo back in the day I was initially disappointed.
The slideshow intro, the encounter with death, and initial stage before entering the castle seemed a little lackluster for all the hype the game was getting...
Of course, the changed as soon as I entered the castle...
so when was that "back in the day" of yours?
the slideshow intro, the encounter with death, and initial stage (prologe) before entering the castle was and still is something of the coolest and most stylish a game ever showed in the whole 90s. how can one get disappointed of a show from that great calibre?
Back in the day was as close to release date as I could have gotten it. I was calling up the import store long distance every week to see if they got it yet.
I had to contend with an awful exchange rate, import fees, long wait for delivery while reading the few articles in magazines I could find.
When I finally got it, I was so hyped that I was let down by those first few moments of the game. It wasn't that I thought it that small chunk of the game sucked. It just wasn't as spectacular as I was expecting.
ok..I was sheer killed by those first minutes of purest awesome just possible.
Quote from: JoshTurboTrollX-16 on 01/17/2014, 11:49 AMQuote from: galam on 01/16/2014, 07:50 PMThis joke was already attempted.
Yet neither were funny. You can joke about alot of things here at PCFX, but saying Rondo is an overrated or terrible game gets you put in the fucking SNERD closet for life.
Rondo for SCD usually gets ranked in my top 3 PCE/Turbo games and easily in my top 10 favorites of all times for all consoles.
Trollololol
Anyone who doesn't think Rondo is an incredible game needs admitted to a mental ward. Of course it's awesome. It's still one of the best, if the THE best, of the Castlevania games ever made... duh.
Quote from: spambotAnyone who doesn't think Rondo is an incredible game needs admitted to a mental ward. Of course it's awesome. It's still one of the best, if the THE best, of the Castlevania games ever made... duh.
Yeah, "duh".
Quote from: Tatsujin on 01/18/2014, 10:31 AMQuote from: td741 on 01/18/2014, 10:13 AMI will admit then when I first got Rondo back in the day I was initially disappointed.
The slideshow intro, the encounter with death, and initial stage before entering the castle seemed a little lackluster for all the hype the game was getting...
Of course, the changed as soon as I entered the castle...
so when was that "back in the day" of yours?
the slideshow intro, the encounter with death, and initial stage (prologe) before entering the castle was and still is something of the coolest and most stylish a game ever showed in the whole 90s. how can one get disappointed of a show from that great calibre?
Probably lack of 8 way whip from Super Castlevania IV, even though Rondo has an awesome backflip move.
How I view the 16-bit Castlevanias.
Rondo>Bloodlines>Super IV.
Quote from: guest on 01/18/2014, 04:31 PMHow I view the 16-bit Castlevanias.
Rondo>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Bloodlines>Super IV.
agreed :)
Quote from: Tatsujin on 01/18/2014, 09:17 PMQuote from: PukeSter on 01/18/2014, 04:31 PMHow I view the 16-bit Castlevanias.
Rondo>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Bloodlines>Super IV.
agreed :)
Nah, how about a compromise?
Rondo>>>>>Bloodlines>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Super IV.
Quote from: guest on 01/18/2014, 09:37 PMQuote from: Tatsujin on 01/18/2014, 09:17 PMQuote from: guest on 01/18/2014, 04:31 PMHow I view the 16-bit Castlevanias.
Rondo>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Bloodlines>Super IV.
agreed :)
Nah, how about a compromise?
Rondo>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Bloodlines>>>>>Super IV.
ok :)
Back in 1999 I had a lot of what many would consider the best games for the Genesis and SNES, a few hucards and cd some imports for the pcengine, then one day that year I saw one of my friends playing SOTN, I said to myself holy doodoo, the special fx were amazing....I started collecting games again, Gensis, SNES and pcengine games, obviously nothing had the flair of SOTN, then I soon found out about Rondo, I thought to myself that its not going to have any of that flair or flash of SOTN, because no snes, pce or genesis game had, had
those kinda animated fx, boy, was I wrong, I couldn't believe it, it had retained dozens of animated special fx.
Then I learned about the snes port and thought, well lets see how this stuff turned out on that system, and of course it was neutered, the snes just couldn't reproduce those animations, nor could the GBA, it wouldn't be until the Nintendo DS that we would see the same quality of animation,.
Its pretty close to being an objective fact that Rondo has the best animated fx between the three major 16bit systems, (enemy burst into flame fx, dracs orb attack, dracs fire attack, shafts lightning,etc, etc, etc) I believe this because other systems(gen,snes) tried and failed at trying to reproduce these fx(at least the snes) and most importantly, what other game has its special fx animations still being used pixel for pixel in games to this day.
So if some one ask you what your favorite system is and you say the pcengine, and they ask what so great about the pcengine, tell them that it produced the best special fx of its generation.
Speaking of Dracula x, how is the cart over $100? Everyone knows it isn't as good as rondo.
Snes gouging sucks.
Pc engine is my favorite. Just bc all the arcade ports and unique action games.
Pce does have nice special fx, like all the shooties. But no scaling and rotation.
EDIT: Forgot about the warping and disintegration effects. :)
Quote from: PukeSter on 01/19/2014, 11:51 AMSpeaking of Dracula x, how is the cart over $100? Everyone knows it isn't as good as rondo.
Snes gouging sucks.
Collectible prices aren't based on quality, they're based on collectibility.
QuotePc engine is my favorite. Just bc all the arcade ports and unique action games.
Pce does have nice special fx, like all the shooties. But no scaling and rotation.
EDIT: Forgot about the warping and disintegration effects. :)
That would be a pro, but unfortunately PCE games do feature lots of scaling, rotation, 3D, morphing, transparencies, etc (Rondo of Blood features impossible-with-Mode 7 scaling and rotating sprites for example).
Quote from: guest on 01/19/2014, 02:10 PMThat would be a pro, but unfortunately PCE games do feature lots of scaling, rotation, 3D, morphing, transparencies, etc (Rondo of Blood features impossible-with-Mode 7 scaling and rotating sprites for example).
Where? Honest (and possibly dumb) question.
Quote from: Tatsujin on 01/19/2014, 02:56 AMQuote from: guest on 01/18/2014, 09:37 PMQuote from: Tatsujin on 01/18/2014, 09:17 PMQuote from: guest on 01/18/2014, 04:31 PMHow I view the 16-bit Castlevanias.
Rondo>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Bloodlines>Super IV.
agreed :)
Nah, how about a compromise?
Rondo>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Bloodlines>>>>>Super IV.
ok :)
Fixed for truth
Rondo>>>>Super IV>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Bloodlines>Dracula XX
:D
Quote from: jperryss on 01/19/2014, 02:55 PMQuote from: CrackTiger on 01/19/2014, 02:10 PMThat would be a pro, but unfortunately PCE games do feature lots of scaling, rotation, 3D, morphing, transparencies, etc (Rondo of Blood features impossible-with-Mode 7 scaling and rotating sprites for example).
Where? Honest (and possibly dumb) question.
Death boss fight.
See, if you just draw the rotated and scaled frames individually, that's not actually scaling and rotation. That's like the "3D" in Sapphire. Sure, it looks good and qualifies as solid animation, but scaling and rotation is something that is calculated on-the-fly.
Quote from: guest on 01/19/2014, 04:14 PMSee, if you just draw the rotated and scaled frames individually, that's not actually scaling and rotation. That's like the "3D" in Sapphire. Sure, it looks good and qualifies as solid animation, but scaling and rotation is something that is calculated on-the-fly.
Like Jigoku Meguri?
There are these weird rolling head enemies. In the arcade, they actually rotate, but the PCE version has a few "rolling" frames of animation, so it is choppier.
Quote from: guest on 01/19/2014, 04:14 PMSee, if you just draw the rotated and scaled frames individually, that's not actually scaling and rotation. That's like the "3D" in Sapphire. Sure, it looks good and qualifies as solid animation, but scaling and rotation is something that is calculated on-the-fly.
Scaling and rotation are literally scaling and rotation. Real-time/hardware rendered versions of misc effects are "real-time" or "hardware rendered", but no more "scaling" or "rotating". The fact that most SNES fanboys count lots of pre-rendered and non-S/R (see Axelay) effects as "Mode 7" rendered, only drives the point home further. The Genesis has hardware support for real-time transparencies, but you rarely hear retro game fans acknowledge it as such because of this kind of semantics (which tend to be based around a SNES fanboy perspective).
Hardware rendered effects aren't perfectly smooth either, they can be incredibly choppy or silky smooth. The fact that they are or aren't rendered in real-time is independent from the fact that they are scaling/rotating effects.
The SNES is extremely limited or specific in its S/R ability. It can only S/R a single tile layer within specific conditions. It can't do multiple objects or sprites. It hurt game design more often than aided it as developers abused it as filler or designed sections around a checklist of hardware rendered effects instead of designing good stages and then looked to see if the hardware could assist their ideas. The kind of 3D floor effect seen in Super Mario Kart was a genuine new kind of (short lived) gameplay and the best use of "Mode 7", but it isn't simply a hardware-rendered real-time scaling/rotation effect. It also uses raster (and line scrolling/h-sync?) effects. Unfortunately, this effects combo was also abused for filler more than for gameplay.
If you're using scaling and/or rotation completely as a simple visual effect, like Bowser blowing up big in Super Mario World, does it matter if it's an equal number of framers and clarity on a hardware-supported console or pre-rendered on another? Or if it's half the frames with double the clarity when pre-rendered? What would be the difference if you found out tomorrow that the GoT 4-in-1's Super CD screen scaling and rotation was actually rendered by a previously undocumented hardware feature of the PCE CD-ROM?
Mode 7 and any other hardware rendered real-time effects aren't actually a legion of tiny gnomes living in your picture box carrying around a large picture and moving it closer to your eyes and tilting it for you either. It's only rendering frames of
animation, often cobbled together from swatches of artwork. Same with so-called "real parallax" which is rendered using multiple tile layers. It's only real or not in your mind and those tile layers aren't giant paintings like multiplane camera effects in animated films (which still repeat a single background image if it continues long enough). They're an illusion of a piece of artwork which is actually tiled together from swatches of graphics and is all only rendering frames of animation which flash across your TV screen.
I kinda agree with BT here, but having hardware capable of doing s/r does seem pretty cool.
What about Star Parodier? After you beat a boss, a lot of times they zoom into the screen. Is that proper hardware scaling (as I always imagined it to be) or is that pre-rendered sprites? Howabout the Gates of Thunder disc? They are definitely showing off scaling and rotation when you start it up. Is that all pre-rendered? I honestly don't know and am now curious. :)
S/R can be even accomplished on a c64 (few cool demos showed it), it's all about programing techniques and how it can be dispalyed in a simple way.
as BT stated, the SFC/SNES could only S/R one tile or BG plane at once, made it completely incapable to reproduce stuff like for example the super scaler games from sega like space harrier etc.
you can even see that in F-Zero or Mario Kart, that they used the mode-7 for the street/flat environment (playfield) and had to sprite animate all the other objects like drivers, osbtacles, weapons etc. since the SFC is to weak to S/R everything. I would call it even weaker than the MD and PCE in that matter.
now look at stuff like on the x68k, which can reproduce almost 1:1 sega arcade supersaclaer stuff like the super hang on and thunder blade, with all the simultaneous S/R of any objects/sprites/BGs/tiles onscreen, even the x68k has absolutely no hardware S/R ability, its calculating speed was that high that it just could manage such tasks on the fly.
Quote from: guest on 01/19/2014, 09:22 PMI kinda agree with BT here, but having hardware capable of doing s/r does seem pretty cool.
What about Star Parodier? After you beat a boss, a lot of times they zoom into the screen. Is that proper hardware scaling (as I always imagined it to be) or is that pre-rendered sprites? Howabout the Gates of Thunder disc? They are definitely showing off scaling and rotation when you start it up. Is that all pre-rendered? I honestly don't know and am now curious. :)
The post-stage pics from Star Parodia use a scaling effect nicknamed "mosaic". New Adventure Island and Cosmic Fantasy 4 also do full screen mosaic effects.
Hardware effects are neat, but looking at what happened with the SFC, I think that the creativity shown in PCE games would have been stifled and we wouldn't have wound up with the unique library that we love.
Same with Neo Geo. It wouldn't be the same if it could do 3D and other effects besides sprite shrinking. Just look at the Hyper Neo Geo 64. Would you rather have more of that or the art-heavy kind of content we got with the regular Neo Geo?
It's bad enough that too many PCE games feature pixelization as an effect as it is.
Hardware scaling like in snes games would have ruined rondo of blood, a lot of snes scaling looks like pixilated pieces of paper coming closer or moving away from the screen there is no change in color or detail and it gets more and more pixilated as it draws closer to the screen, if you look at sapphire the game was able to redraw each frame and recolor as an object got closer to the screen, so aesthetically it looks much better than most snes type scaling, though not as smooth of course.
here are some scaling, rotation and spinning that's found in rondo, most of this stuff was dropped all together in Dracula xx, or downgraded with less frames due to not enough memory, if you look at the cyths with16 frames those are all unique frames which is why it looks so good in game.
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo008/1q222_zps7dc6269a.png)
100% trueness!!
I rememer the first time playing drac x when the 1st level dragon all sudden super scary stylish animatezoomed from the back ground into the screen accompanied with that creepy dragon scream/noise. now that was a scare I have yet to experience on any other 16-bit platforms!!
a cheap mode-7 zoom instead like used in so many snes games would have ruined that scene totally!!
What about the zoom/scale when picking a game on the GOT 3 in 1. Comin' at ya!
Quote from: CrackTiger on 01/19/2014, 10:06 PMHardware effects are neat, but looking at what happened with the SFC, I think that the creativity shown in PCE games would have been stifled and we wouldn't have wound up with the unique library that we love.
I understand this statement, and there were certainly instances like this. Super ghouls n ghosts was not as good as ghouls n ghosts genesis, and effects made it even harder to play.
However, better hardware effects/chips also help with a game.
Yoshi's island is a great example. The super fx chip and other effects help to bring the warm, colorful world really to life.
Star fox has 3d that hasn't aged well, but there were many exciting level designs possible because of it. Entering the enemy tunnel and shooting the core in stage 3 is an epic moment with great buildup.
Heck, f-zero plays rather well still thanks to mode 7. Mode 7 was abused for title screens, but really made racing games more fun and fluid.
Not all snes games were stifled. Some cases, the effects embraced the creativity.
Quote from: guest on 01/20/2014, 10:41 AMMode 7 was abused for title screens, but really made racing games more fun and fluid.
but also flatter than ever before.
Quote from: PukeSter on 01/20/2014, 10:41 AMQuote from: CrackTiger on 01/19/2014, 10:06 PMHardware effects are neat, but looking at what happened with the SFC, I think that the creativity shown in PCE games would have been stifled and we wouldn't have wound up with the unique library that we love.
I understand this statement, and there were certainly instances like this. Super ghouls n ghosts was not as good as ghouls n ghosts genesis, and effects made it even harder to play.
However, better hardware effects/chips also help with a game.
Yoshi's island is a great example. The super fx chip and other effects help to bring the warm, colorful world really to life.
Star fox has 3d that hasn't aged well, but there were many exciting level designs possible because of it. Entering the enemy tunnel and shooting the core in stage 3 is an epic moment with great buildup.
Heck, f-zero plays rather well still thanks to mode 7. Mode 7 was abused for title screens, but really made racing games more fun and fluid.
Not all snes games were stifled. Some cases, the effects embraced the creativity.
You can slap external processors onto a HuCard the same as games like Yoshi's Island, Star Fox, Super Mario Kart, Pilot Wings etc require for the SNES to run them. Star Fox doesn't use Mode 7 at all for its 3D, so it isn't an example of built-in hardware making games better (
and the Genesis has more polygonal games rendered purely by cpu power). I've also heard tech savvy people say that Yoshi's Island doesn't bother using SNES hardware for its scaling and rotation either.
Yoshi's Island, really is a great example of the point I am making. The SFX2 chip is 7 - 10 times faster than the SNES cpu and combined with the amazing SNES hardware effects, it was used as filler in place of animation. The bosses in Yoshi's Island almost all feature an unprecedented
ONE frame of animation, while a few of them feature as many as two or perhaps even
three frames! :shock: But thanks to Mode F(iller), those static images swirl, rotate and pixelate to give the illusion of movement without any additional artwork. They also mostly consist of round outlines with a couple dots as the artwork for the single static frame.
http://youtu.be/AdeYxPMFUbc Super Mario World II : Yoshi's Island - All Boss Battles
The SNES/SFX2 chip effects aren't actually responsible for the warmth or color of that game world. That's the artwork side, which the reliance on special effects waters down in memory-starved SNES cart games.
I said in my previous post that F-Zero style gameplay is the one great thing that Mode 7 (+ misc effects) provided. It wasn't worthwhile enough for developers to continue using in the 32-bit generation, but it was a new and unique gameplay experience when it wasn't also used as filler in games like FFVI, Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana, etc.
How good is snes at big sprites compared to pce? Even hucards like liquid kids have some massive and very mobile bosses.
HAH! Yoshi's bosses are animated by Flash! lol
I've never played this game so that was an interesting surprise. The game has some superb art direction, I'll give it that and I've heard it's a great platformer.
Lame bit about the bosses.
Quote from: fragmare on 01/18/2014, 11:17 AMQuote from: JoshTurboTrollX-16 on 01/17/2014, 11:49 AMQuote from: galam on 01/16/2014, 07:50 PMThis joke was already attempted.
Yet neither were funny. You can joke about alot of things here at PCFX, but saying Rondo is an overrated or terrible game gets you put in the fucking SNERD closet for life.
Rondo for SCD usually gets ranked in my top 3 PCE/Turbo games and easily in my top 10 favorites of all times for all consoles.
Trollololol
Anyone who doesn't think Rondo is an incredible game needs admitted to a mental ward. Of course it's awesome. It's still one of the best, if the THE best, of the Castlevania games ever made... duh.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7337/12051592613_3071fab86d_o.jpg)
Quote from: PukeSter on 01/20/2014, 11:58 AMHow good is snes at big sprites compared to pce? Even hucards like liquid kids have some massive and very mobile bosses.
The SNES could perhaps do more than PCE for huge sprites and I mean real actual sprites, not one big character rendered with a tile layer. But it would have to be only big stuff, like two giant Bonks from Bonk 3... and nothing else. It can only use 2 different sprite sizes, which bottlenecks development for types of games with a variety of sprites sizes.
This is a highly optimized SNES fighter which relies on all the player sprites being the same size:
http://youtu.be/JN_XXols2Go Gundam Wing Endless Duel - Combo Video (Part 1/2)
But when you're dealing with a variety of player, projectile, effect, etc sprite sizes, it really brings down what the SNES can display compared to PCE or MD:
(https://www.tg-16.com/comparisons/wh2_pce_1.png) (https://www.tg-16.com/comparisons/wh2_sfc_1.png)
(https://www.tg-16.com/comparisons/wh2_pce_2.png) (https://www.tg-16.com/comparisons/wh2_sfc_2.png)
(https://www.tg-16.com/comparisons/wh_dm_pce_2.png) (https://www.tg-16.com/comparisons/wh_dm_sfc_2.png)
(https://www.tg-16.com/comparisons/bonk3_pce_1.png) (https://www.tg-16.com/comparisons/bonk3_sfc_1.png)
(https://www.tg-16.com/comparisons/art_pce_1.png) (https://www.tg-16.com/comparisons/art_sfc_1.png)
(https://www.tg-16.com/comparisons/art_pce_7.png) (https://www.tg-16.com/comparisons/art_sfc_7.png)
(https://www.tg-16.com/comparisons/FFS_pce_6.png) (https://www.tg-16.com/comparisons/FFS_sfc_6.png)
(https://www.tg-16.com/comparisons/FFS_pce_b.png) (https://www.tg-16.com/comparisons/FFS_sfc_b.png)
(https://www.superpcenginegrafx.net/misc/dracx_pce_vs_sfc_sprites1.png)
BT - How do I download all your gaming knowledge to my brain? LOL either that or point me to some dang resources. ;)
Quote from: Nando on 01/20/2014, 03:25 PMHAH! Yoshi's bosses are animated by Flash! lol
I've never played this game so that was an interesting surprise. The game has some superb art direction, I'll give it that and I've heard it's a great platformer.
Lame bit about the bosses.
Yoshi is one of the defining games of the 16-bit gen.
However, I have not played it in years due to it's massive length and playing it all the time on my game boy advance.
I do have a snes copy, I may start it again after beating gears of war and mizubaku daibouken. :)
it's strange, I could really never got into yoshi's island. I love SMW, but I can't play yoshi's island.
for me it's just way to annoying and honestly its art style doesnt't appeal to me at all.
it sure isn't a bad game or looks anything bad (technically) I guess, but it's kinda just very far away of the type of games I like. and I tried it many times, just couldn't provide me any fun.
Quote from: Tatsujin on 01/20/2014, 07:30 PMit's strange, I could really never got into yoshi's island. I love SMW, but I can't play yoshi's island.
for me it's just way to annoying and honestly its art style doesnt't appeal to me at all.
it sure isn't a bad game or looks anything bad (technically) I guess, but it's kinda just very far away of the type of games I like. and I tried it many times, just couldn't provide me any fun.
Is it Baby Mario that is the turnoff? That's kinda silly. Though it sucks when you are trying to gain all 30/10 stars for completion and then you get knocked down to the standard 10/10 timer.
But yeah, Yoshi's Island is a very different playing type of platformer. Very long levels, a buttload of them, and you do them at your own pace. Lots of secrets and fun to be found though. :)
I still remember the music to this day.
And don't let boss battles be a turnoff. In fact, every single one is completely unique and magnificent.
Here is the Ralphael the Raven fight. http://youtu.be/qjAHyEYK-AM
It's definitely true that SNES scaling and rotation is very limited. Only one thing can be rotated, and it can only be a background layer and not a sprite or foreground object... that's a big limitation. But for a $200 system in 1990-91, that was the best they could do, and it was pretty great for the time. It isn't full scaling and rotation, but it allows for some interesting effects and games which pushed the racing game particularly forward.
Quote from: guest on 01/19/2014, 06:19 PMIf you're using scaling and/or rotation completely as a simple visual effect, like Bowser blowing up big in Super Mario World, does it matter if it's an equal number of framers and clarity on a hardware-supported console or pre-rendered on another? Or if it's half the frames with double the clarity when pre-rendered? What would be the difference if you found out tomorrow that the GoT 4-in-1's Super CD screen scaling and rotation was actually rendered by a previously undocumented hardware feature of the PCE CD-ROM?
Mode 7 and any other hardware rendered real-time effects aren't actually a legion of tiny gnomes living in your picture box carrying around a large picture and moving it closer to your eyes and tilting it for you either. It's only rendering frames of animation, often cobbled together from swatches of artwork. Same with so-called "real parallax" which is rendered using multiple tile layers. It's only real or not in your mind and those tile layers aren't giant paintings like multiplane camera effects in animated films (which still repeat a single background image if it continues long enough). They're an illusion of a piece of artwork which is actually tiled together from swatches of graphics and is all only rendering frames of animation which flash across your TV screen.
You have a point here, but there is a difference between hardware and software effects, and there is a difference between software scaling and just faking it with a sequence of images that make it look like scaling, which the larger medium of the CD allowed the TGCD to do. But between that and the Sega CD, which has real sprite scaling and rotation? It's clear which is better. I doubt that the TGCD could ever manage to pull off SoulStar or The Adventures of Batman & Robin. Or Super Mario Kart either. But they could put a lot more stuff on those discs than a SNES cartridge, and push that far and you get the end result of something really amazing looking like Sapphire.
But yeah, which technique is "better"? I don't know... but technically actually doing the rendering yourself, particularly things like software sprite scaling in Genesis or TG16 games that is actually decently done (TG16 Outrun would be an example of that), is more technically impressive than just doing it through animations of a "scaling" object.
Quote from: guest on 01/19/2014, 10:06 PMHardware effects are neat, but looking at what happened with the SFC, I think that the creativity shown in PCE games would have been stifled and we wouldn't have wound up with the unique library that we love.
I don't really get this... and since this is a Rondo of Blood thread, how about thinking about platformers. It's more creative to have a platformer library loaded with NES-style games, like the TG16 has, than ones full of newer and more innovative experieinces like you find on the SNES and Genesis? Honestly the very weak (outside of RoB) platformer library is one of the major reasons why I still think that I have to consider the TG16/CD my third-favorite 4th gen console; there is nothing on the system that matches up to Super Mario World or Sonic the Hedgehog, and for a generation where many of the best games (and many of my favorite games) were platformers, that is a problem.
Yeah, the CD system allowed for more than you see on the often simple HuCard titles, but apart from Rondo of Blood, none of the few other CD sidescrollers match up to the best on the SNES, I don't think. Like, TGCD Valis IV is better than SNES Valis IV, but it's not all that great of a game on either platform. The problem here isn't RoB though, it's the rest of the genre on the system, cart and CD. After RoB next best probably is the Bonk games, and while they're good games, they're no match for Mario or Sonic.
And as for visual effects, yes I like the Mode 7 rotation levels in Super Castlevania IV. I was kind of disappointed that none of the other Castlevania games that generation had them. Mode 7 usually wasn't right for platformers, but in a few specific cases it could be interesting. SNES visual effects are impressive and are a real plus for the platform. It's something it needed, with how slow that CPU is...
QuoteSame with Neo Geo. It wouldn't be the same if it could do 3D and other effects besides sprite shrinking. Just look at the Hyper Neo Geo 64. Would you rather have more of that or the art-heavy kind of content we got with the regular Neo Geo?
The Neo-Geo is 1990 hardware. 1990 3d would be what, Hard Drivin'? That wouldn't have held up long at all... so sure, the choice to go with sprites helped that hardware last a lot longer. The quickly dated 3d is a big part of what doomed the Hyper Neo Geo 64, after all.
QuoteIt's bad enough that too many PCE games feature pixelization as an effect as it is.
Visual effects are often nice, though.
Quote from: Tatsujin on 01/20/2014, 10:57 AMQuote from: guest on 01/20/2014, 10:41 AMMode 7 was abused for title screens, but really made racing games more fun and fluid.
but also flatter than ever before.
That's not really true, some games manage hills in Mode 7 racing games, and other games (like Mario Kart) have some vertical elements in the tracks other than the racers, too. It is true that the main racing plane is flat, but it's still much more 3d than anything on consoles before. Linescroll racing games are fun, but their courses look nothing like real ones. Mode 7 allows for an approximation of real turns and circuits in a racing game, and it looks great (when done well).
Oh, and Mohawk & Headphone Jack is a pretty unique one... it's a Mode 7 side-scrolling platformer with rotation and gravity and stuff. Crazy weird game, and it's flawed, but it's technically interesting and can be fun sometimes too. It's the kind of thing that you could never have done on the other 4th gen consoles, though the Sega CD or 32X might have been able to handle it.[/quote]
Quote from: Nando on 01/20/2014, 03:25 PMHAH! Yoshi's bosses are animated by Flash! lol
I've never played this game so that was an interesting surprise. The game has some superb art direction, I'll give it that and I've heard it's a great platformer.
I think it's not quite as good as the first Mario World, but Mario World is one of the or maybe the best 2d platformer ever, so that's a very high bar to clear... but regardless, Yoshi's Island is definitely a fantastic game. I do dislike that it's kind of easy, until you want to get everything at which point it gets really really hard; I'd rather have a more consistent difficulty curve, but YI isn't really like that. Otherwise it's great though. And yeah, it looks fantastic.
QuoteLame bit about the bosses.
What? Yoshi's Island's bosses look really impressive! Watch that video. The number of frames of animation doesn't really matter when they've got great effects like those going on...
Quote from: HardcoreOtaku on 01/19/2014, 03:04 PMRondo>>>>Super IV>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Bloodlines>Dracula XX
:D
I'd switch Rondo and Super IV on that (they're both really amazing, but I slightly prefer SCIV), but otherwise I agree. Bloodlines and Dracula XX are very disappointing compared to the previous two.
I still don't get Super IV love. It's very slow, somewhat ugly, and not very fun to play. Bloodlines is linear, but the faster speed and more exciting action, along with a few of Rondo's improvements makes it much better than Super IV imo.
People claim the 8 way whip is fantastic, but it's more like you need it rather than you want it. Backflipping in Rondo, however, can get you out of a pinch in many defense situations, though you don't even need it to win.
Kind of like how they replaced the 4 way shooting from GnG with double jump in SGnG. Double jumping was not practical for tough situations, just something you needed, while 4 way shooting you needed, but was extremely handy a lot of the time.
I prefer PCE platformers over Genny. I really like the hack and slash platformers, along with Taito's Bubble Bobble derivatives. Never liked Sonic. Marvel Land is a favorite of mine though.
SNES platformers are the best library as a whole, but even they are different. Many of them involve jumping on enemies, rather than methodically attacking up close like Bonk and Legendary Axe.
As for platforming ninja games on the various 16bit systems, i'd have to say Ninja Spirit pretty much destroys all the Shinobis and Hagane on the SNES. Irem were freaks.
That's one platforming game that Irem got oh so right on the TG16. Flicker and all.
With CVIV vs. Rondo vs. Bloodlines, I will admit that I played CVIV and Bloodlines long before Rondo, so the nostalgia nod would have to go to those two games, and guess what... i can *STILL* recognize Rondo as a better game. It's just put together better. Also, Simon walks funny in CVIV. Looks like he just woke up hung over and is lurching towards the bathroom. Bloodlines is decent, but not as good as Rondo or CVIV, imo. Bloodlines has a return to some of the classic gameplay elements, like Rondo, which is cool, but the graphics and sound just cant compete with CVIV and Rondo.
I would also say Bonk's Revenge is approaching the quality of a SMW or a Sonic. The first Bonk game, no. Bonk 3 would have been pure gold had the level design been better. :/
lol, saying the PCE was not got at platformers is like saying the SNES lacked in good RPGs. sure most would heavily disagree with the latter statement.
it might have no mario game nor a sonic one, because it neither was a nintendo or sega system. so that would be just logical, right?
but it has (selection):
Adventure Island / Dragon's curse -> undeniable a master piece of a platformer
New Adventure Island -> better than any AIs on the SNES
Akumajou Dracula X - Chi No Rondo -> must not be discussed any further
Aoi Blink -> cute an unique platformer
all PC Genjins / Bonks -> super charisma, funny gameplay and jokes, certainly not as fast as a sonic but sure makes some great fun
Bikkuri World -> best and most authentic arcade port of the classic. its an early game yeah, but damn well made
Bonanza Bros -> much better than on the MD
Chiki Chiki Boys -> much better than on the MD, and an almost copy for the original CPS-1 game
Daimakaimura -> by far the best version of its time. also arguable better than super ghoulsy
Dynastic Hero -> great platformer with great musics, which makes it the better version
Faussete amour -> great gem
Gekisha Boy -> very unique gem
Genji Tsushin Agedama -> very action loaded platformer
Horror Story -> superb arcade conversion
Jackie Chan -> super gameplay, super fun
Kaizou Choujin Shubibinman 2 & 3 -> imo better than rockmans
Kato chan & Ken chan -> early game but very funny and great playability
Legend Of Hero Tonma -> only arcade conversion
Mizubaku Daibouken -> great port an super funny kewt game
Ninja Spirit -> one hell of a ninja game blaster
Parasol Stars -> unique successor of the bouble serie
Rainbow Islands -> best version
Son Son II -> early game but what a balst to play
all valis -> undeniable better than on any other systems
Wonder Boy III - Monster Lair -> almost 1:1 arcade and galaxies better than the MD port
and a tons of others.
I would have to agree with ABF about comparing the overall platformer library of the TG16, Gen and SNES, in that the TG16 library was smaller while retaining about the same crap-to-awesome game ratio. Tatsujin rattled off a list of what? about 30 decent to awesome TG16 platformers worth playing? There would probably be about twice that amount of platformers I'd consider "decent" or above on the Genesis and SNES, i'm guessing. :/
That's not the say the PCE/TG16 doesn't have some real brilliant gems. It certainly does. And I see what TBF is saying, but I think it's just due to an overall smaller library, rather than a distinct deficit in good platformers specifically.
I could write a lot more about this, but in short, I think there are three basic issues with the TG16/CD's platformer library.
- Not having parallax scrolling makes the games look more dated than SNES and Genesis platformers do. I know it's just a visual thing, but it really does add to the improved-NES-like feel many of the (HuCard particularly) games have. I know there are a lot of good reasons why it didn't happen, but I kind of wish that the SuperGrafx had caught on, and NEC had released, like, a SGX Duo instead of the PCE Duo as their main system... parallax really helps the look of those games.
-When comparing first party libraries, Hudson and NEC's best sidescrollers aren't quite as great as Sega or Nintendo's best. In the 4th generation you really needed a great first party platformer to compete, and Hudson and NEC's best aren't quite at Mario or Sonic's level. Bonk is close... but not quite. And Hudson and NEC didn't respond to Sonic by making something great in response to it. I know Sonic was a much bigger hit in the US than Japan, which is probably a lot of why, but Hudson had a style for its platformers and stuck to it pretty much through the generation. They didn't really respond to Mario World and Sonic 1 with anything too much different from what they had done before. And yes, this applies to Hudson's SNES ones as well as their TG16/CD platformers. Super Bonk 2 is still the same basic formula as the first game. It's a good formula and they are great games, but they aren't quite as great as Sega and Nintendo's best. For instance Super Bonk 2 is from 1995, the same year as Yoshi's Island and Ristar. As for NEC, they mostly stuck to ports of games from other platforms, and very few are traditional platformers... did they have anything original other than Genji Tsushin Agedama and Horror Story? Bazaru de Gozaru No Game Degozaru is really a puzzle game, and Renny Blaster a beat 'em up, and that's all I can find that isn't a late port of something. But as we see from the direction they went with the PC-FX, platformers clearly weren't a focus for NEC.
-The TG16/CD has a much smaller third party platformer library than the SNES or Genesis do, as fragmare said. Many fewer releases, and the ones that there are are more likely to be earlier -- there are more HuCard platformers than CD for sure. I'm sure it didn't help either that some of the system's major third party supporters faded or fell apart mid-gen, such as Telenet, Naxat Soft, and NCS Masaya. After '92 none of those three were the same again. Konami did release RoB, but that was their ONLY platformer for the system, while the SNES and Genesis both got quite a few platformers from them, some great. Capcom was no better; apart from Sonson II (and maybe SFII?), which they seem to have maybe made themselves, they did almost nothing with the system. They didn't do too much on Genesis either, but Sega had a better library of third-party stuff there to make up for that, while Hudson and NEC didn't.
Quote from: fragmare on 01/21/2014, 12:14 AMI would have to agree with TBF about comparing the overall platformer library of the TG16, Gen and SNES, in that the TG16 library was smaller while retaining about the same crap-to-awesome game ratio. Tatsujin rattled off a list of what? about 30 decent to awesome TG16 platformers worth playing? There would probably be about twice that amount of platformers I'd consider "decent" or above on the Genesis and SNES, i'm guessing. :/
That's not the say the PCE/TG16 doesn't have some real brilliant gems. It certainly does. And I see what TBF is saying, but I think it's just due to an overall smaller library, rather than a distinct deficit in good platformers specifically.
Yeah, and when you're talking about the generation(s) where 2d platformers were at their peak in terms of volume, that is a big deal. The TG16/CD has a huge library of shmups, which is probably the best overall of any console ever, but being great at only one genre isn't enough to make a console great, not when its competition was great at more genres.
However, when you compare first party-published libraries only, the disparity in release totals really isn't the problem. Sega did release a lot of platformers on the Genesis, but Nintendo didn't publish so many on the SNES. They went for quality over quantity. I've made a list of Sega and Nintendo platormers... I should consider adding Hudson/NEC's TG16/CD stuff, might make for an interesting comparison. But while Sega flooded the Genesis with first-party-published platformers from both Sega of Japan and a bunch of Western studios, Nintendo released zero to two platformers a year on average on the SNES -- Super Mario World (1990 JP/1991 US/EU), nothing in '92 and '93, Donkey Kong Country and Super Metroid if you count it (1994), DKC 2 and Yoshi's Island (1995), DKC 3 and Kirby Super Star (1996), and Kirby 3 (1997)... and that's it, I believe. That's not a lot in volume, just a lot in quality. Sega's best are about as good, but with so many more releases, the average quality is a bit lower... but they made up for that with numbers. Hudson/NEC? Even combined, they have average volume (similar to or less than Sega), and neither one released a game as incredible and industry-defining as Sonic turned out to be.
The good to bad ratio on the TG16/CD's platformer library as a whole might be similar to the other platforms though, sure. But that library is smaller, and RoB is the only one that reaches the same peak as the best platformers on the other platforms (though the Bonk games are close).
Quote from: Tatsujin on 01/20/2014, 11:39 PMlol, saying the PCE was not got at platformers is like saying the SNES lacked in good RPGs. sure most would heavily disagree with the latter statement.
No, those two things aren't alike at all.
Quoteit might have no mario game nor a sonic one, because it neither was a nintendo or sega system. so that would be just logical, right?
Of course, but in order to keep up with Nintendo and Sega, Hudson and/or NEC had to release games on par with Sega and Nintendo's best platformers. It was the most important genre that generation. They released some good ones, but they weren't quite on par with Sega and Nintendo's best, and they were likely to be late ports of games from other platforms (most of NEC's) or somewhat dated in design (Hudson).
Quote from: guest on 01/20/2014, 09:33 PMI still don't get Super IV love. It's very slow, somewhat ugly, and not very fun to play. Bloodlines is linear, but the faster speed and more exciting action, along with a few of Rondo's improvements makes it much better than Super IV imo.
People claim the 8 way whip is fantastic, but it's more like you need it rather than you want it. Backflipping in Rondo, however, can get you out of a pinch in many defense situations, though you don't even need it to win.
I don't know if I've ever bothered to backflip in RoB... but that's in part because i lamost never play as Richter because of how weak his attacks are compared to Maria's, and how great the double jump is. A backflip really doesn't seem very useful in comparison. But the 8-way whip? It's fantastic, and I am one of the people who thinks that it was really unfortunate that Konami decided to never use it in a Castlevania game again. SCIV has the best whip controls in the franchise.
Also, SCIV looks good, and has incredible music and great level designs. Bloodlines has annoyingly long levels and an unforgivably crippled save/password system (limited continues in a Castlevania game is not okay!), and doesn't have enough levels, either. Also the graphics and music aren't as good as either SCIV or RoB. And they removed the 8-way whip, too. "One character can attack diagonally while on the ground only and the other can while in the air only" is a cruel, stupid joke.
QuoteKind of like how they replaced the 4 way shooting from GnG with double jump in SGnG. Double jumping was not practical for tough situations, just something you needed, while 4 way shooting you needed, but was extremely handy a lot of the time.
GnG is a fun, somewhat challenging game, but personally I find SG&G almost impossibly hard! Seriously, I've beaten Genesis G&G. Beat it in like a day or two after buying it... though the infinite continues helped a lot. But while I have SG&G on SNES and GBA, even on the GBA where the game has saving, I've still never managed to get past the second level. That game is too hard to be fun.
QuoteI prefer PCE platformers over Genny. I really like the hack and slash platformers, along with Taito's Bubble Bobble derivatives. Never liked Sonic. Marvel Land is a favorite of mine though.
SNES platformers are the best library as a whole, but even they are different. Many of them involve jumping on enemies, rather than methodically attacking up close like Bonk and Legendary Axe.
Do you like NES platformers more than Genesis ones too? Otherwise I really can't understand at all saying that TG16 platformers are better than Genesis ones...
As for Sonic, I can't be objective there, yeah; the Genesis Sonic games made a big impression on me... I thought Nintendo made the best console games, but Sonic sure was amazing too. And the Genesis Sonic games are still great, too. And regardless of personal opinion, the games made a huge impact on the industry. There's a reason why Sonic is still a popular franchise.
Also, the best way to attack enemies in Bonk is to jump on them (with your head)...
Yes, NEC Avenue co-developed SonSon II with Capcom, one of Capcom's few "legit" games on the system. Other than Street Fighter II, and most likely SideArms Special (Capcom did the sound, also for the HuCard version, and new boss designs are based on rejected concept art for the original game)
Can't really say for the NES, as I'm not a big fan of 8-bit systems.
Ristar is great, yes, but it seems overly long. I almost get bored when I play it. I'll give it a go sometime.
Yes, I really adore GnG, but despise SGnG. Very slow pacing, and much of the difficulty also comes from shoehorning special effects, like the intestinal track turning level. The 5 minute long raft level can go **** itself. Not to mention the arrows are the only good weapon in the game.
Quote from: A Black Falcon on 01/21/2014, 03:59 PMI could write a lot more about this, but in short.....
In short?!? :lol:
There's too much dumb in your wall of repetitive text to even bother formulating a concise response. "Eight way whips are teh awesomesauce!" and "it's too hard with Richter!"..... let me know when you graduate to the big boy pants and maybe I'll give a fuck about your opinion.
Rondo's only flaw is that it's too easy.
Quote from: NecroPhile on 01/21/2014, 06:10 PMQuote from: A Black Falcon on 01/21/2014, 03:59 PMI could write a lot more about this, but in short.....
In short?!? :lol:
There's too much dumb in your wall of repetitive text to even bother formulating a concise response. "Eight way whips are teh awesomesauce!" and "it's too hard with Richter!"..... let me know when you graduate to the big boy pants and maybe I'll give a fuck about your opinion.
Dude, he never said Richter was too hard, he just said Richter sucked. Don't be so hard on him. ;)
I love playing as Richter, because I FEEL strong. He's a Belmont, and I prefer the tradition.
Actually, Maria is technically weaker than him, but having 2 doves at a time, with 2 possible hits for each dove makes her stronger.
Rondo is easy-normalish with Richter, but a ****ing cakewalk with Maria. The final boss is a prime example. Maria's sub weapons suck though.
And again, 8 way whip isn't even needed in Rondo. It really isn't. The game is perfectly manageable without diagonal directions.
I can't wait for lords of shadow 2
Quote from: galam on 01/21/2014, 07:37 PMI can't wait for lords of shadow 2
These games any good? If their cheap I may pick them up.
Quote from: guest on 01/21/2014, 06:10 PMQuote from: A Black Falcon on 01/21/2014, 03:59 PMI could write a lot more about this, but in short.....
In short?!? :lol:
The first version was longer.
QuoteThere's too much dumb in your wall of repetitive text to even bother formulating a concise response. "Eight way whips are teh awesomesauce!" and "it's too hard with Richter!"..... let me know when you graduate to the big boy pants and maybe I'll give a fuck about your opinion.
The eight way whip is really awesome and should have been in every Castlevania game after SCIV, yes. Better controls make games better. Limited, restricting controls don't do that. Yes, they can make games harder, but that kind of artificial difficulty is rarely a good thing.
As for the latter one though, I could say something there, but lukester said it already -- you're entirely misrepresenting what I said. It's not that the game is hard with Richter; even with him it's probably one of the easier games in the series. It's that it's so much more fun with Maria that it's no fun to play as him, with no double jump and only half the damage.
Quote from: guest on 01/21/2014, 07:10 PMDude, he never said Richter was too hard, he just said Richter sucked. Don't be so hard on him. ;)
I love playing as Richter, because I FEEL strong. He's a Belmont, and I prefer the tradition.
Actually, Maria is technically weaker than him, but having 2 doves at a time, with 2 possible hits for each dove makes her stronger.
Yeah, that she does double damage is key. You're right that he can take more hits, but it's not enough to make up for how much more limited and weaker he feels in terms of movement and attacks.
QuoteRondo is easy-normalish with Richter, but a ****ing cakewalk with Maria. The final boss is a prime example. Maria's sub weapons suck though.
And again, 8 way whip isn't even needed in Rondo. It really isn't. The game is perfectly manageable without diagonal directions.
It is, but that's another reason why Maria is better -- her normal attack hits on a bit of an arc, so while she doesn't have aiming control her attacks do attack a wider area than Richter's whip does, and also with the red birds special she has great coverage of the space directly above her. I rarely use the other specials of hers unless I have to...
Quote- Not having parallax scrolling ....
but there is a lot of parallax scrolling. just because it can't do hardware parallax doesn't mean it can't do parallax at all.
Funfact, you talking always like PCE platformers look and feel like 8-bit NESish, but yet the PCE got the best and most faithful arcade ports of all the 3 systems.
Quote-When comparing first party libraries, Hudson and NEC's best sidescrollers aren't quite as great as Sega or Nintendo's best. In the 4th generation you really needed a great first party platformer to compete, and Hudson and NEC's best aren't quite at Mario or Sonic's level...
But at the same time, it was also a huge deal to have as most as accurate arcade games in your own four walls. so who wins this one? nobody really cared much about console exclusives back then as long the games were either good or as close as possible ports of one of the fame arcade games at the time. I think R-Type f.e. helped the PCE extremely to push it into instant sales heaven back in 1988 in Japan.
You have also to consider that on the PCE a big bunch of platformers were already released before the SFC even hit the market :idea:
QuoteNo, those two things aren't alike at all.
yeah, but also it's unfair to say the PCE was only good at shooters, because that's plain wrong. if it wasn't that good at plat formers as the other two as you feel, it sure was equaly good if not even better in the RPG department.
QuoteOf course, but in order to keep up with Nintendo and Sega, Hudson and/or NEC had to release games on par with Sega and Nintendo's best platformers. It was the most important genre that generation. They released some good ones, but they weren't quite on par with Sega and Nintendo's best, and they were likely to be late ports of games from other platforms (most of NEC's) or somewhat dated in design (Hudson).
Sega had only Sonic and Nintendo had only Mario, big deal here. whilst I am quite a fan of sonic 1, i didn't really like any of its successors much, they just put in more and more and got more boring with each part.
and yeah, SMW is one hell of a fun bringing and long motivating platformer, agreed, but it was basically already everything done before in SMB 3. Also SMW looks partly very simple and 8-bittish, which you are repeatedly claiming is more of a PCE thingy.
Does nobody love bravoman?
Sent from my Lumia 520 on Scabb Island using Tapatalk
Quote from: Tatsujin on 01/21/2014, 09:22 PMQuote- Not having parallax scrolling ....
but there is a lot of parallax scrolling. just because it can't do hardware parallax doesn't mean it can't do parallax at all.
I didn't say it can't do it at all, I said that it doesn't have hardware parallax, and as a result most games don't have parallax. I know some non-Supergrafx games have (software) parallax scrolling, such as Valis IV and Bravoman. It looks pretty nice in those games. But I'm sure that took some tricky programming, since so few games have parallax in them, even with the Arcade Card. I mean, both Arcade Card platform/action games, Strider and Mad Stalker, have no parallax. Meanwhile on SNES and Genesis most games in the genre have it.
QuoteFunfact, you talking always like PCE platformers look and feel like 8-bit NESish, but yet the PCE got the best and most faithful arcade ports of all the 3 systems.
Platformers too? Or are you just talking about shooters and the like?
QuoteQuote-When comparing first party libraries, Hudson and NEC's best sidescrollers aren't quite as great as Sega or Nintendo's best. In the 4th generation you really needed a great first party platformer to compete, and Hudson and NEC's best aren't quite at Mario or Sonic's level...
But at the same time, it was also a huge deal to have as most as accurate arcade games in your own four walls. so who wins this one? nobody really cared much about console exclusives back then as long the games were either good or as close as possible ports of one of the fame arcade games at the time. I think R-Type f.e. helped the PCE extremely to push it into instant sales heaven back in 1988 in Japan.
Nobody? But Nintendo won the NES and SNES generations mostly because of console exclusives, not arcade ports. Some arcade ports helped them (Street Fighter II, for instance), but they weren't the main deciding factors. Clearly many people cared about console exclusives. Sega was always more arcade-focused, and that did work for them on the Genesis, but it started breaking down after that... but Hudson/NEC arcade-focused? I don't know, they released some, but was it enough to call it a major focus of the platform? But including third-party releases that probably is more true. R-Type and Image Fight were certainly big selling points for the platform. I know Image Fight was a pretty big hit in Japan, even though here it wasn't at all... and isn't PCE Image Fight one of its best selling games or something? That's surely why the TCD got an exclusive Image Fight sequel, while R-Type had gone to the SNES.
But anyway, I was talking mostly about platformers there. Arcade platformers are very uncommon, so any advantage in some arcade ports would mean little as far as platformers go. Sure, it has better versions of stuff like Chiki Chiki Boys and Monster Lair, but arcade-style platformers like those weren't the main draw on SNES or Genesis.
QuoteYou have also to consider that on the PCE a big bunch of platformers were already released before the SFC even hit the market :idea:
That's true. I would be more forgiving of early ones like JJ & Jeff, yeah. For 1987 that game's good.
QuoteQuoteNo, those two things aren't alike at all.
yeah, but also it's unfair to say the PCE was only good at shooters, because that's plain wrong. if it wasn't that good at plat formers as the other two as you feel,
I said great, not good. Sure, there are other genres the system is good at. But I meant "Which genres is this system every bit as good as the other ones that generation at?"
To answer my own question, I'm sure that the TCD is incontestably the best console that generation for digital comics, gal-games, and mahjong titles. NEC put more and more focus into that stuff over time, and it shows.
Quoteit sure was equaly good if not even better in the RPG department.
The system probably is better for RPGs overall than the Genesis, yeah, though the Sega CD does have my favorite JRPG of the generation in Lunar 2, but the SNES? The SNES has just as many or more RPGs than the TG16+CD, and more later, better-looking ones from the top companies in the genre, too. I mean, Falcom supported the PCE, but Square and Enix did not, and they were the two biggest and most influential RPG studios. Only a few TCD RPGs (LoX II, AnEarth...) show off graphics as good as later SNES games. This is a genre the TG16/CD is quite good at, yes, but I don't know if it quite matches the SNES...
QuoteQuoteOf course, but in order to keep up with Nintendo and Sega, Hudson and/or NEC had to release games on par with Sega and Nintendo's best platformers. It was the most important genre that generation. They released some good ones, but they weren't quite on par with Sega and Nintendo's best, and they were likely to be late ports of games from other platforms (most of NEC's) or somewhat dated in design (Hudson).
Sega had only Sonic and Nintendo had only Mario, big deal here. whilst I am quite a fan of sonic 1, i didn't really like any of its successors much, they just put in more and more and got more boring with each part.
Sega released mountains of Genesis platformers that weren't Sonic. Some were Japanese, such as the Castle/World of Illusion games, but many others were Western-developed, but Sega published those so they count. Vectorman, X-Men, Greendog, Jurassic Park, etc etc. Not all of them are great, but Vectorman definitely is.
As for the Sonic games, I think that all of the Genesis Sonics are great. I do like some things about the first game, such as the slower-paced puzzle elements in some levels that you rarely see in the later games, but they're all great. Well, the platformers are; I'm not a fan of Sonic Spinball.
Quoteand yeah, SMW is one hell of a fun bringing and long motivating platformer, agreed, but it was basically already everything done before in SMB 3. Also SMW looks partly very simple and 8-bittish, which you are repeatedly claiming is more of a PCE thingy.
Yeah, not all SNES and Genesis games really push things forward either, sure. Many early (ie, pre-Sonic) Genesis games don't have much "next-gen" about them apart from graphical fidelity and parallax backdrops... and some SNES games are like that too, sure. But as for SMW, I think that does look next-gen. What parts are you talking about that don't look as good?
As for SMW vs. SMB3, I think that SMW is a significant improvement over SMB3, but it is a similar concept, that's true. That is probably a big part of why Sonic became such a phenomenon, because it was something new while Mario World, while exceptional, wasn't quite as much.
The 8 way whip changes the mechanics of the whole series. It makes secondary weapons irrelevant and I don't believe it has been used since. Correct me if I'm wrong pls.
Quote from: CrackTiger on 01/19/2014, 06:19 PMScaling and rotation are literally scaling and rotation. Real-time/hardware rendered versions of misc effects are "real-time" or "hardware rendered", but no more "scaling" or "rotating". The fact that most SNES fanboys count lots of pre-rendered and non-S/R (see Axelay) effects as "Mode 7" rendered, only drives the point home further. The Genesis has hardware support for real-time transparencies, but you rarely hear retro game fans acknowledge it as such because of this kind of semantics (which tend to be based around a SNES fanboy perspective).
I agree that simply dedicating frames of animation to an effect can net better results. Lots of SNES scaling and rotation was really gimmicky. You are correct, of course, about the limitations as well. But, really, there's no point simply selecting apart animation that happens to represent scaling or rotation when it really just falls under good use of animation frames, something a great many PCE developers excelled at.
The "semantics" that separate SNES MODE 7 as simply scaling and rotation are a bit inaccurate and arbitrary, but I think the hardware capabilities of these systems are important. The SNES did manage to use MODE 7 and hardware alpha transparency in some very unique ways to great visual effect, in ways the Turbo and Genny couldn't reproduce. Likewise, the Turbo used extra CD memory to do lots of great animation effects that other systems couldn't really handle well in the context of an actual playable, enjoyable game due to memory or storage limitations. None of these system-specific traits make one system better than another, simply different. It does lend very different personalities to the different systems, which is why I think it is important to some. I enjoy the PCE, SNES, and GEN greatly, and I tend to enjoy them in different ways, and with different types of games. Nothing wrong with recognizing those differences and giving them names, so long as it is handled responsibly.
QuoteIt can only use 2 different sprite sizes, which bottlenecks development for types of games with a variety of sprites sizes.
Fortunately, the SNES could display enough sprites and sprite pixels to often, though not always, overcome that. Still, the graphics restrictions on the SNES can be really odd at times. It was not a straight-forward system.
Also, Rondo is cool and all, one of my fave, if not my fave, Castlevania games, but really, what the PCE needed was Bubsy. I think Bubsy was what made the SNES and Genny a success. The lack of Bubsy on the PCE is what made it fail in the US. Because who doesn't want a cat in a sweater with 'tude. Seriously.
Bubsy, guys. At the very least, there should have been a Rondo/Bubsy mashup/crossover, where instead of Marie and Richter, you just play as Bubsy, lashing zombies with yarn.
QuoteI didn't say it can't do it at all, I said that it doesn't have hardware parallax, and as a result most games don't have parallax. I know some non-Supergrafx games have (software) parallax scrolling, such as Valis IV and Bravoman. It looks pretty nice in those games. But I'm sure that took some tricky programming, since so few games have parallax in them, even with the Arcade Card. I mean, both Arcade Card platform/action games, Strider and Mad Stalker, have no parallax. Meanwhile on SNES and Genesis most games in the genre have it.
it's true that SNES/MD had more often standard parallax, but also many PCE games have it, as well platfromers. here again, Drac X is one of the parade example of how awesome parallax can look on the PCE.
QuotePlatformers too? Or are you just talking about shooters and the like?
yeah platformers too.
QuoteNobody? But Nintendo won the NES and SNES generations mostly because of console exclusives, not arcade ports. Some arcade ports helped them (Street Fighter II, for instance), but they weren't the main deciding factors. Clearly many people cared about console exclusives. Sega was always more arcade-focused, and that did work for them on the Genesis, but it started breaking down after that... but Hudson/NEC arcade-focused? I don't know, they released some, but was it enough to call it a major focus of the platform? But including third-party releases that probably is more true. R-Type and Image Fight were certainly big selling points for the platform. I know Image Fight was a pretty big hit in Japan, even though here it wasn't at all... and isn't PCE Image Fight one of its best selling games or something? That's surely why the TCD got an exclusive Image Fight sequel, while R-Type had gone to the SNES.
Nintendo won the NES and SNES generations mostly because of their name and fame from the FC/NES era. there was almost only nintendo after the 1st video game crash. that's whey it made his big name in the industry. and nintendo is/was also a far bigger company in general.
after the PCE was released it skyrocket even above the FC until the SFC came out over 3 years later! if that doesn't say a lot about the high quailty for an absolute newcomer in the console hardware manufacturer. and most of the fails were anyway results of terrible marketing, rather than the actual game lineup -> see TG16 in USoA.
but R-Type sure was also one of the best selling games on the PCE. so that doesn't really mean nothing at all.
QuoteBut anyway, I was talking mostly about platformers there. Arcade platformers are very uncommon, so any advantage in some arcade ports would mean little as far as platformers go. Sure, it has better versions of stuff like Chiki Chiki Boys and Monster Lair, but arcade-style platformers like those weren't the main draw on SNES or Genesis.
The PCE was more directed to an adult audience, in contrast to nintendo, hence arcade ports, at least in japan, where a big deal back then.
QuoteI said great, not good. Sure, there are other genres the system is good at. But I meant "Which genres is this system every bit as good as the other ones that generation at?"
To answer my own question, I'm sure that the TCD is incontestably the best console that generation for digital comics, gal-games, and mahjong titles. NEC put more and more focus into that stuff over time, and it shows.
not at all, but since these sure were popular adult genres in japan, yeah they kinda pushed it more than probably nintendo and sega (see post above, regarding adult audience). also the CD media helped here a lot.
but these games do not really show the strength of the system. in contrarz\y, the SFC got lietarlly 100erds of cheap pachi-slot games, which are far worth than most of the PCE adult centric titles. but does this mean that the SFC is incontestably the best console that generation for pachi games?
QuoteThe system probably is better for RPGs overall than the Genesis, yeah, though the Sega CD does have my favorite JRPG of the generation in Lunar 2, but the SNES? The SNES has just as many or more RPGs than the TG16+CD, and more later, better-looking ones from the top companies in the genre, too. I mean, Falcom supported the PCE, but Square and Enix did not, and they were the two biggest and most influential RPG studios. Only a few TCD RPGs (LoX II, AnEarth...) show off graphics as good as later SNES games. This is a genre the TG16/CD is quite good at, yes, but I don't know if it quite matches the SNES...
I wasn't even thinking of the Genesis when i made that post that bad it was represented in this segment, tho the MCD changed this a bit to the better. but RPGs was truly one of the strongest genre on the PCE and thanks to the use of CD media, as you're saying yourself, and it even revolutioned it in a way, the SNES could never do it due to be limited ot cartridge space only. i admit, that the later SNES RPGs look nice, but the PCE isn't really that much behind that level, and as mentioned it had quite few other quality aspects important in RPGs the SNES had not.
Which the really winner in this genre is, i can't say for sure. i also think this can only be answered by those who played them both and all of em, as well understood them.
QuoteSega released mountains of Genesis platformers that weren't Sonic. Some were Japanese, such as the Castle/World of Illusion games, but many others were Western-developed, but Sega published those so they count. Vectorman, X-Men, Greendog, Jurassic Park, etc etc. Not all of them are great, but Vectorman definitely is.
that's right, but i have also to say that only a few of that mountains of platformers are really good ones. i think the PCE is for shooters what the MD is for platformers.
QuoteAs for the Sonic games, I think that all of the Genesis Sonics are great. I do like some things about the first game, such as the slower-paced puzzle elements in some levels that you rarely see in the later games, but they're all great. Well, the platformers are; I'm not a fan of Sonic Spinball.
i think most of the sonic platfromers are in general quality games, but after sonic 1 the big aha experience was gone, and all its successors were just kinda updates with a lopt of repeating elements with few new characters added. for me sonic was never the same again as the first sonic was.
QuoteYeah, not all SNES and Genesis games really push things forward either, sure. Many early (ie, pre-Sonic) Genesis games don't have much "next-gen" about them apart from graphical fidelity and parallax backdrops... and some SNES games are like that too, sure. But as for SMW, I think that does look next-gen. What parts are you talking about that don't look as good?
what is the definition of looking next-gen in your opinion anyway? beside of nicer colors, better acoustics and parallax, SMW didn't do anything different than SMB 3 already did. so most if not every PCE platformer does this as well, beside of your ever so important point of some missing parallaxes here and there. in that term f.e. a chiki chiki boy, when not being the greatest game ever, looks much more next-gen than a SMW or many of the other released platformers on the SNES.
QuoteAs for SMW vs. SMB3, I think that SMW is a significant improvement over SMB3, but it is a similar concept, that's true. That is probably a big part of why Sonic became such a phenomenon, because it was something new while Mario World, while exceptional, wasn't quite as much.
i think the significant improvement in SMW was only in the technical department, thus grafx, colors, parallax..hell it even had a few slow downs here and there.
sonic was something different right, but closer viewed it is a quite simple game regarding level design and grafx. lots of repeatly used tiles and elements. it was fast, but that's all it was.
Quote from: guest on 01/21/2014, 08:34 PMQuote from: galam on 01/21/2014, 07:37 PMI can't wait for lords of shadow 2
These games any good? If their cheap I may pick them up.
Well, I get flogged for liking them, but I often give some leniency to some of my child-hood favorite franchises. I can appreciate the lineage and just play the game for face value.
Think God of War in a Castlevania setting. Some good camera motion in certain spots make the game feel "bigger" at some points. A few very half-baked Colossus style boss fights that were implemented poorly. Essentially just big QTE sessions. Story was ok, ending was great, ready for the next one.
They just re-released Lords of Shadow "Complete" edition (or whatever it's called) that includes the first game and all the DLC on physical disc. I think it's $30, but is really just a vehicle to get people hyped on the Shadow 2 in February. I haven't tried any of the DLC, so I can't comment on that.
Quote from: Tatsujin on 01/22/2014, 01:19 AMDead Moon is one of the parade example of how awesome parallax can look on the PCE.
O:)
Love you tats. xoxo
Tatsujin and Black Falcon are locked in an...
OBEY WAR
OBEY wins, as it always does :!:
Really, the SNES and Genesis have at least 2 1/2 times more platformers each than the TG16 does. Probably more than that, but that much for sure. I'm sure a list of good SNES or Genesis+SCD+32X platformers would be at least 2 1/2 times as long as a list of good TG16+CD platformers, simply because of the vast gulf in number of releases.
Quote from: Tatsujin on 01/22/2014, 01:19 AMit's true that SNES/MD had more often standard parallax, but also many PCE games have it, as well platfromers. here again, Drac X is one of the parade example of how awesome parallax can look on the PCE.
Many? Some, sure, but I don't know about many. Most platformers do not.
Quoteyeah platformers too.
But arcade platformers were relatively uncommon. The genre usually doesn't work well in arcades because of game and level length, so arcade platformers often end up being short and shooting-focused I think. I mean, I know that there are some here and there, including Strider, Ninja Spirit, Legend of Hero Tonma, Chiki Chiki Boys, Toki, and more, but not very many at all compared to the huge numbers of platformers released on the third and fourth console generations. Most platformers were console exclusive games, because you need to play platformers for a longer amount of time and that doesn't work in an arcade because arcade games must be getting a steady quarter burn rate.
QuoteNintendo won the NES and SNES generations mostly because of their name and fame from the FC/NES era. there was almost only nintendo after the 1st video game crash. that's whey it made his big name in the industry.
That isn't true at all in Japan; there wasn't really a crash there because there hadn't been much of a videogame industry pre-crash in Japan. Nintendo won in Japan because they had the best hardware -- in 1983-84 the Famicom was worlds better than the SG-1000 and Super Cassette Vision -- and the best software, too. The Famicom dominated Japanese gaming from '84 to '87. It was the resulting wealth of great Japanese games that sold the NES in the West, combined with some clever marketing from Nintendo, such as using R.O.B. to get the system in toy stores at a time after the crash when stores mostly thought that videogames were a dead fad. Even after that, and with Super Mario Bros. available at launch in 1985, the NES took a while to really take off in the US and wasn't a huge hit until 1987, the year the system started to fade a bit in Japan. (The system's peak here was '87 to '90.)
As for the SNES, they did use the fame they'd made with the NES to make it a success, yes, much like Sony did with the PS2, but being successful the previous generation doesn't guarantee you success, as Sony and Nintendo would both later learn... the SNES also had fairly good hardware design, a good price, good Nintendo marketing, and a great first-party library. They won the generation because of a lot of factors, but essentially they made no major mistakes and had good hardware.
Quoteand nintendo is/was also a far bigger company in general.
Huh... what?? No! NEC is a far larger company than Nintendo and always has been. They just weren't that good at leveraging that, and were incredibly abysmal at it in the US. Nintendo is bigger than Hudson, but NEC built the systems, not Hudson.
Quoteafter the PCE was released it skyrocket even above the FC until the SFC came out over 3 years later! if that doesn't say a lot about the high quailty for an absolute newcomer in the console hardware manufacturer.
Sure, the PCE was definitely successful in Japan in the late '80s. It was the first next-gen system and clearly beat the NES graphically, and I presume that NEC actually marketed it competently there, unlike here.
Quoteand most of the fails were anyway results of terrible marketing, rather than the actual game lineup -> see TG16 in USoA.
That's for sure. I think that the TG16 would have almost inevitably fell back to third place after Sonic launched, but the system should have been successful in the time before Sonic launched in summer '91. Before Sonic, even as it is the TG16 probably had a better overall library than the Genesis, but somehow Sega sold more systems anyway... NEC messed things up badly there. NEC definitely had a better 1989 library by a good margin, and maybe 1990 too though that's closer.
NEC should have released the TG16 in the US in 1988, not 1989, and marketed it much better. Releasing first and with competent marketing and distribution would have made a huge difference. I still think Sonic would have been a huge hit and would have lifted Sega up, and Nintendo was going to do well of course, but with a stronger start the TG16/CD would have done a lot better than it did. Oh yeah, and stupid NEC, release the thing in Europe! It'd have done well, I think.
Quotebut R-Type sure was also one of the best selling games on the PCE. so that doesn't really mean nothing at all.
I'm sure it was, but despite that Irem made the next two R-Type games SNES-exclusive on consoles. (Well, R-Type Complete CD released, but that was just a combined port, not a new game.) But Image Fight did get a PCE sequel.
QuoteThe PCE was more directed to an adult audience, in contrast to nintendo, hence arcade ports, at least in japan, where a big deal back then.
Ports of arcade platformers, important? I guess I can sort of see that in the late '80s, but not past that, no.
Quotenot at all, but since these sure were popular adult genres in japan, yeah they kinda pushed it more than probably nintendo and sega (see post above, regarding adult audience). also the CD media helped here a lot.
That's true, but they also allowed more adult content than even Sega -- I mean, the Sega CD existed, but neither it nor the Saturn or PS1 allowed as much nudity and stuff as NEC did on the TCD and PC-FX. You're right, they were clearly aiming at an older male gamer audience. As they saw with PC-FX sales, though, that audience isn't big enough to maintain a platform all on its own. You also see this with the Dreamcast, which sold great with that audience but very badly otherwise in Japan, which led to its general failure there outside of the hardcore. But sure, on the PCE/CD, aiming at that audience helped them. They went wrong when in the next generation they decided to have ONLY that stuff, instead of the better -- not perfect, but better -- balance that the PCE has.
Quotebut these games do not really show the strength of the system. in contrarz\y, the SFC got lietarlly 100erds of cheap pachi-slot games, which are far worth than most of the PCE adult centric titles. but does this mean that the SFC is incontestably the best console that generation for pachi games?
What do you mean, "far worth than most of the PCE adult centric titles"? I don't know what you mean. But sure, yeah, the SFC certainly is best for pachislot.
QuoteI wasn't even thinking of the Genesis when i made that post that bad it was represented in this segment, tho the MCD changed this a bit to the better. but RPGs was truly one of the strongest genre on the PCE and thanks to the use of CD media, as you're saying yourself, and it even revolutioned it in a way, the SNES could never do it due to be limited ot cartridge space only. i admit, that the later SNES RPGs look nice, but the PCE isn't really that much behind that level, and as mentioned it had quite few other quality aspects important in RPGs the SNES had not.
Which the really winner in this genre is, i can't say for sure. i also think this can only be answered by those who played them both and all of em, as well understood them.
Nintendo had Square and Enix, the two behemoths of the genre. They won RPGs. The TG16/CD had a good library of RPGs, but Falcom aside didn't have stuff from the biggest names, and it shows. Remember how Dragon Quest was (and still is?) the best selling series in Japan, and that series was NES and SNES exclusive up until DQ7 followed FF7 to the PS1. Final Fantasy was surely the second best selling and most popular RPG series, and it was also Nintendo-only of course.
I mean, yeah, the PCE has lots of RPGs, many of which are surely good and under-appreciated particularly by Western audiences... but without the two publishers who were the most popular and most highly regarded at the time, they can't be considered to have won the genre overall. The system does have a good RPG library for sure, though, no question.
(Note - I'm not saying this as a big fan of Square or Enix. I'm not that. They just were the most important RPG developers.)
Quotethat's right, but i have also to say that only a few of that mountains of platformers are really good ones. i think the PCE is for shooters what the MD is for platformers.
What do you mean? The Genesis+CD+32X does have a lot of good platformers, but the SNES has just as many... the 3rd and 4th generations were the great age of platformers and both systems have lots of great ones. The TG16+CD has a fair number too, though as I've said the TCD has many fewer than it should considering how many games were released for the platform. Oh well.
Quotei think most of the sonic platfromers are in general quality games, but after sonic 1 the big aha experience was gone, and all its successors were just kinda updates with a lopt of repeating elements with few new characters added. for me sonic was never the same again as the first sonic was.
It's true that the experience wasn't as new after the first one, but Sonic 2 and Sonic 3 & Knuckles are such great games that that doesn't matter all that much. They take the first games' basic idea and improve on it in many ways. Sonic CD is pretty good too, though unique in some ways. My overall favorite is 3 & Knuckles, I think, though all four (counting 3&K as one game) are great.
Quotewhat is the definition of looking next-gen in your opinion anyway? beside of nicer colors, better acoustics and parallax, SMW didn't do anything different than SMB 3 already did. so most if not every PCE platformer does this as well, beside of your ever so important point of some missing parallaxes here and there. in that term f.e. a chiki chiki boy, when not being the greatest game ever, looks much more next-gen than a SMW or many of the other released platformers on the SNES.
i think the significant improvement in SMW was only in the technical department, thus grafx, colors, parallax..hell it even had a few slow downs here and there.
Well, the SNES's main advantages over the NES were better graphics, more colors, bigger sprites, parallax scrolling, transparencies, Mode 7, and the like, so yeah, the biggest improvements were visual... but for something like Mario, those visual improvements did lead to better gameplay too I would say. It did have some slowdown, but it was a launch title even in Japan; they hadn't optimized SNES development yet. Later SNES games would reduce slowdown versus the earlier ones. A faster CPU would also have helped, of course, but they didn't have that.
Also, you're right that Chiki Chiki Boys looks pretty nice, apart from not having parallax. It looks like it plays more like something like Joe & Mac than Mario, though, so gameplay-wise it's not the same thing. That gets back to the point I made earlier about arcade-style versus console sidescrollers.
Quotesonic was something different right, but closer viewed it is a quite simple game regarding level design and grafx. lots of repeatly used tiles and elements. it was fast, but that's all it was.
That's true, in terms of graphical variety, scale, and design Sonic is a shorter, smaller, and simpler game than Mario World, no question. Sega's arcade focus shows, even in console exclusives like Sonic.
SMB3>SMW. Only people born after 1986 will disagree. SNES has aged terribly, just slow moving, low animation, muffled sound garbage these days.
Quote from: SuperDeadite on 01/23/2014, 09:24 AMSMB3>SMW. Only people born after 1986 will disagree. SNES has aged terribly, just slow moving, low animation, muffled sound garbage these days.
It was the shinny new coat of paint that won them kids over. Damn thing looked like a cartoon and the teaser screen shots had everyone drooling before the game was even in close to being done, but yea SMB3 > SMW all the way.
I think everyone I know remembers these pics
/2kec7o.jpg
(https://images.nintendolife.com/news/2010/11/feature_super_famicom_celebrates_20th_anniversary/attachment/1/large.jpg)
I'm becoming and old bastard and I will always like SMW more than SMB3.
I still don't know what else we're talking/arguing about in here? There is no arguing when it comes to Rondo of Blood.
Quote from: geise on 01/23/2014, 10:24 AMI'm becoming and old bastard and I will always like SMW more than SMB3.
I still don't know what else we're talking/arguing about in here? There is no arguing when it comes to Rondo of Blood.
It's not about Rondo of Blood, it's about daring to speculate that Nintendo could possibly not be superior to everything else. Saying that consoles/libraries are overall equal, balanced or simply different/unique is not enough. You must admit that nothing even compares to Nintendo.
Quote from: guest on 01/21/2014, 11:32 PMQuoteIt can only use 2 different sprite sizes, which bottlenecks development for types of games with a variety of sprites sizes.
Fortunately, the SNES could display enough sprites and sprite pixels to often, though not always, overcome that. Still, the graphics restrictions on the SNES can be really odd at times. It was not a straight-forward system.
The problem is, is that the added benefits the SNES has for sprites - rarely ever materialize into something practical. Case in point; 128 sprite table size. It's basically there as a band-aid fix for the limited sprite size selection. The most common sprite setup used in SNES games, is the 16x16 / 32x32. 32x32 is wasteful on sprite scanline pixel bandwidth, if the object is in between 16x16 and 32x32. Thus, either eat the vram wasted space and sprite pixel scanline bandwidth - or use smaller 16x16 segments and eat the cpu overheard of meta sprite conversion to OAM table.
16x16 and 8x8 is a nice option, but you'll be eating through that OAM table of 128 entries pretty quickly with 8x8 entries (and even with 16x16 entries). Assuming you don't max out the table, you will give a nice sprite pixel scanline optimization. As well as better vram optimization. But, you're going to put a ~lot~ more overhead on the processor. The OAM layout already has a slight cpu overheard for the MSB of X position, you'll just compound that with all the meta-sprite matrix math and conversions. This SNES already has a relatively slower CPU compared to the other systems; this is just gonna bog it down further.
NES had this problem. All sprite objects are maybe up of 8x8 cells. Megaman frames can be up to 9 sprites just to build one of his frames. There's a lot of overhead in the meta-sprite to real sprite conversion; you have to add base position to all offsets, you have to check each 8x8 cell segment for screen wrapping and if so - clip it, you have to do special repositioning coords to flip the while meta-sprite, etc. The NES would be that much faster, if it could just call a single 16x16 or 32x32 sprite. The SNES will have all these same issues to deal with as well.
Outside a very few specific cases, the SNES has the weakest sprite setup of the three systems. It's not terrible per se (after all, the x68000 had only one sprite size; 16x16 and a sprite table size of 128 entries. Of course, it also had twice the sprite pixel scanline bandwidth of the snes), but when you look at it in the context of the rest of the video specs of the snes - it's actually kind of bad.
QuoteAlso, Rondo is cool and all, one of my fave, if not my fave, Castlevania games, but really, what the PCE needed was Bubsy. I think Bubsy was what made the SNES and Genny a success. The lack of Bubsy on the PCE is what made it fail in the US. Because who doesn't want a cat in a sweater with 'tude. Seriously.
Bubsy, guys. At the very least, there should have been a Rondo/Bubsy mashup/crossover, where instead of Marie and Richter, you just play as Bubsy, lashing zombies with yarn.
All joking aside, that Sonic/Busy formula can work on the PCE quite well. What I mean by that, is focus on moving fast through out the a level, enemies are sparse so it's more about avoiding them than trying to hunt them down/etc. I had worked out a nice map system that used PCE sprites for the foreground. The map entries were made up of 32x64 block entries. Of course, that's a meta block and could translate into a group of sprites - or a single 32x64 hardware sprite to save on SAT size. Clipping the screen to 240xYYY allows the system to scroll sprites without "popping" on the edges. 32x64 can be switched to 16x64 really easy on the fly, and without having duplicate sprite blocks in vram. A little clipping of the screen height with a status bar and you have enough SAT entries to pull this off. You just need to do some careful design work on the sprite map side (level design) to avoid blank out, but it's not as bad as you might think. I was really blown away, once I started doing the mock-ups and calculations.
It was all about the colors maaaaaaaaaaaan. SNES games had some of the prettiest screen shots on print media for a long while, that and the Nintendo sigil was marked across the foreheads of just about every single US gamer at the time. Nintendo WAS video games.
(https://www.postavy.cz/foto/chazz-michael-michaels-foto.jpg)
*goes off to play Soldier Blade :mrgree:
Yeah, SMW is definitely a better game than SMB3. SMB3's levels are too small!
Quote from: SuperDeadite on 01/23/2014, 09:24 AMSMB3>SMW. Only people born after 1986 will disagree. SNES has aged terribly, just slow moving, low animation, muffled sound garbage these days.
Have to disagree on both of those statements, and I was born in 78. SMW vs SMB3 is purely subjective to begin with, but I prefer SMW though I love SMB3 as well. As for the SNES not aging well, I'd say it's aged as well as any of it's contemporaries. It has it's share of crap titles like any other console but it has it's share of all time classics. SMW, Link to the Past, Super Metroid, Yoshi's Island, Final Fantasy IV+VI, Chronotrigger, Axelay, Contra III, Actraiser, and on and on. When it comes to sound, yes, there are many examples of terrible synth horns and guitars, but in the right hands the SNES sounds amazing. Donkey Kong Country, Axelay, Castlevania IV, Chronotrigger, etc. I love the Turbo but the SNES was a damn fine system too.
As for Rondo vs CIV, like I've said before Rondo is the deeper game but CIV has a spookier atmosphere due to the darker visuals and the more gothic music. While I love Cross a Fear and Opus 13 they don't really create a dark mood like you'd expect for a Castlevania game. Nostalgia aside Rondo is the better game but I still love CIV.
I agree with everything you said.
Indeed an incredible game. One of the best experiences I had with the PCE.
I'll give one thing to SCIV. The soundtrack is def different than most castlevania games, but in a good way. Rondo is still the better game, But SCIV is good as well
The soundtrack to Castlevania 4 is indeed amazing.
In some ways SCIV is a study in how not to design a game, even people who call it their favorite game of all time tell you that you just have to get past the first three or four levels and then things pick up, for the most part you will only have around 2 or 3 enemies on screen at once, you have far more on screen in Rondo of course, the main way you or at least most people die in SCIV from what Ive seen is from disappearing blocks and such, in Rondo its doing battle with enemies, enemy AI seems to be far superior In Rondo as well, SCIV gives you multi direction whip...in comparison Rondo gives you the ability to jump on and OFF stairs, multiple characters, different paths to choose, item crash, back flip, slide, tumble, double jump, money actually has a purpose, able to pick your secondary weapon back up, a lot of people might not know but if you keep your finger on the jump button your able to control your jump, and the turtle crash, your able to control where goes (up or down) with the direction pad.
Like I was saying before, here are some of the fx/animations that are still being used today, no other snes or genesis game can claim this. This is where Rondo of blood is the best of its generation.
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/zzzz_zps1a7754de.png)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/aaz_zpse9dbb64c.png)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/zz_zps8fa3a653.png)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/zzzzz_zps8cb3b726.png)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/zzz_zps92ae2eac.png)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/zzzzzzzz_zpsd496b708.png)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/zzzzzzz_zpsdf3490b0.png)
here are all of the similar SCIV fx/animation for comparison..cant capture transparencies
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/Untitledgggg_zps208a60c1.png)
and not to forget about one of the most important factor in games generally "THE PASSION FOR DETAILS".
Drac X was a huge milestone in that department, and can still hold up ultimately well with all the 2D casts that have been released ever since until these days.
Keep in mind that CIV is an early SNES title and only 8 megs whereas Rondo is a Super CD game that came out late in the lifespan of the PCE. When it comes to sprites and frames of animation of course it's going to win out over CIV. Having hundreds of megabytes compared to 1 megabyte will give you an advantage when it comes to frames of animation and detail. Same thing goes for Forgotten Worlds PCE vs the Genesis port. Heck, even Ghouls N Ghosts could've been closer to the Supergrafx port had it been 8 megs instead of 5 megs. As I said before, Rondo is the better game due to it's depth it still lacks the atmosphere created in CIV due to the darker visuals and tunes. And, I love the first few levels of CIV, especially level 2 in the forest. The parallax in the clouds looks cool and the music creates a dark atmosphere. Something I loved about Symphony of the Night is that it's music had elements of both games. Some upbeat tunes that sound nice and a few creepy tunes like when you go down into the darker areas of the castle. Lastly, keep in mind that Slogra and Gaibon were carried over to SOTN as well. Not sure what other games used Rondo sprites besides SOTN.
The thing that bugs me the most about CV4 isn't the length of the game, number of animation frames, linear paths or any of that... it's the fact that Simon's sprite looks as if it's made up of about 5 or 6 separate sprites all kind of trying to coordinate into something resembling a walking animation. It's just clunky and weird looking.
Quote from: fragmare on 01/25/2014, 07:21 AMThe thing that bugs me the most about CV4 isn't the length of the game, number of animation frames, linear paths or any of that... it's the fact that Simon's sprite looks as if it's made up of about 5 or 6 separate sprites all kind of trying to coordinate into something resembling a walking animation. It's just clunky and weird looking.
Really? I don't see that other than maybe when you hold down the whip button and use the d-pad to jiggle the whip around. If you want to see a character made up of multiple sprites that looks clunky check out Earnest Evans. They tried something unique but it didn't work out at all.
Quote from: RyuHayabusa on 01/25/2014, 07:11 AMKeep in mind that CIV is an early SNES title and only 8 megs whereas Rondo is a Super CD game that came out late in the lifespan of the PCE. When it comes to sprites and frames of animation of course it's going to win out over CIV. Having hundreds of megabytes compared to 1 megabyte will give you an advantage when it comes to frames of animation and detail. Same thing goes for Forgotten Worlds PCE vs the Genesis port. Heck, even Ghouls N Ghosts could've been closer to the Supergrafx port had it been 8 megs instead of 5 megs. As I said before, Rondo is the better game due to it's depth it still lacks the atmosphere created in CIV due to the darker visuals and tunes. And, I love the first few levels of CIV, especially level 2 in the forest. The parallax in the clouds looks cool and the music creates a dark atmosphere. Something I loved about Symphony of the Night is that it's music had elements of both games. Some upbeat tunes that sound nice and a few creepy tunes like when you go down into the darker areas of the castle. Lastly, keep in mind that Slogra and Gaibon were carried over to SOTN as well. Not sure what other games used Rondo sprites besides SOTN.
1. I don't think rondo is using hunderds of megs for grafx. not even close.
2. so if castIV was "only" an early SNES game, what was dracXX in 1995 using how many megs?
Dracula xx, is around 16 or so megs, which is just about as big as action type games(shooters and hack n slash etc) got on the snes back then a side scrolling action rpg like super Metroid was, if im not mistaken 20 to 24 megs, not sure though, a few late platformers were around 20 too 24 megs too I think.
Legendary Axe 1 and 2 both have 2 megs each, which is pretty amazing in my opinion, I always wondered what a 8 or 16 meg castlevania would look and sound like on a hucard going by Axe 2.
QuoteLastly, keep in mind that Slogra and Gaibon were carried over to SOTN as well
They were redrawn for SOTN, Rondo of blood sprites and special fx were not changed other than maybe a lighter or darker color palette, Th GBA was not able to reproduce the animated fx from Rondo, they tried but they look aweful, most of the Nintendo DS use sprites and special fx from Rondo, again unchanged, castlevania harmony of despair for the xbox 360 also rondo sprites, and also at least one cell phone game, Rondos quality is truly amazing.
Quote from: awack on 01/25/2014, 08:19 AMLegendary Axe 1 and 2 both have 2 megs each, which is pretty amazing in my opinion, I always wondered what a 8 or 16 meg castlevania would look and sound like on a hucard going by Axe 2.
Even after playing Rondo, I still love LA too. But, I've never played LA 2, as much as I want it.
I could be wrong, but a HuCard Castlevania probably would've been a port of Haunted Castle. you never know though.
awack, I would be interested if you have more PCE sprite rips. I wonder what other games are as technically good as Rondo, but behind the scenes. HuCard rips of beautiful games like New Adventure Island and Twinbee, would be interesting too!
Quote from: awack on 01/24/2014, 11:37 PMIn some ways SCIV is a study in how not to design a game, even people who call it their favorite game of all time tell you that you just have to get past the first three or four levels and then things pick up, for the most part you will only have around 2 or 3 enemies on screen at once, you have far more on screen in Rondo of course, the main way you or at least most people die in SCIV from what Ive seen is from disappearing blocks and such, in Rondo its doing battle with enemies, enemy AI seems to be far superior In Rondo as well, SCIV gives you multi direction whip...in comparison Rondo gives you the ability to jump on and OFF stairs, multiple characters, different paths to choose, item crash, back flip, slide, tumble, double jump, money actually has a purpose, able to pick your secondary weapon back up, a lot of people might not know but if you keep your finger on the jump button your able to control your jump, and the turtle crash, your able to control where goes (up or down) with the direction pad.
Like I was saying before, here are some of the fx/animations that are still being used today, no other snes or genesis game can claim this. This is where Rondo of blood is the best of its generation.
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/zzzz_zps1a7754de.png)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/aaz_zpse9dbb64c.png)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/zz_zps8fa3a653.png)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/zzzzz_zps8cb3b726.png)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/zzz_zps92ae2eac.png)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/zzzzzzzz_zpsd496b708.png)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/zzzzzzz_zpsdf3490b0.png)
here are all of the similar SCIV fx/animation for comparison..cant capture transparencies
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/Untitledgggg_zps208a60c1.png)
Love your sprite rip work, awack!
Quote from: Tatsujin on 01/25/2014, 07:58 AMQuote from: RyuHayabusa on 01/25/2014, 07:11 AMKeep in mind that CIV is an early SNES title and only 8 megs whereas Rondo is a Super CD game that came out late in the lifespan of the PCE. When it comes to sprites and frames of animation of course it's going to win out over CIV. Having hundreds of megabytes compared to 1 megabyte will give you an advantage when it comes to frames of animation and detail. Same thing goes for Forgotten Worlds PCE vs the Genesis port. Heck, even Ghouls N Ghosts could've been closer to the Supergrafx port had it been 8 megs instead of 5 megs. As I said before, Rondo is the better game due to it's depth it still lacks the atmosphere created in CIV due to the darker visuals and tunes. And, I love the first few levels of CIV, especially level 2 in the forest. The parallax in the clouds looks cool and the music creates a dark atmosphere. Something I loved about Symphony of the Night is that it's music had elements of both games. Some upbeat tunes that sound nice and a few creepy tunes like when you go down into the darker areas of the castle. Lastly, keep in mind that Slogra and Gaibon were carried over to SOTN as well. Not sure what other games used Rondo sprites besides SOTN.
1. I don't think rondo is using hunderds of megs for grafx. not even close.
2. so if castIV was "only" an early SNES game, what was dracXX in 1995 using how many megs?
I didn't mean that Rondo was hundreds of megs, only that when you have that much space at your disposal it allows for many more frames of animation, more sprites, and more content in general. I can't remember the size of the game data on Rondo but it's considerably more than CIV. Having more storage data gives it a distinct advantage when it comes to details.
SNES Dracula X was 16 meg I believe, which is only 2 megabytes, nothing compared to a CD. Also, for whatever reason Konami chose to go a different route rather than make a straight port of Rondo. Looking at the sprites it's obvious that the SNES could've handled a straight port had they had the space. Rondo is not a game that couldn't have been done on the SNES had it had a CD attachment.
Quote from: RyuHayabusa on 01/25/2014, 07:33 AMQuote from: fragmare on 01/25/2014, 07:21 AMThe thing that bugs me the most about CV4 isn't the length of the game, number of animation frames, linear paths or any of that... it's the fact that Simon's sprite looks as if it's made up of about 5 or 6 separate sprites all kind of trying to coordinate into something resembling a walking animation. It's just clunky and weird looking.
Really? I don't see that other than maybe when you hold down the whip button and use the d-pad to jiggle the whip around. If you want to see a character made up of multiple sprites that looks clunky check out Earnest Evans. They tried something unique but it didn't work out at all.
I don't think Simon is ACTUALLY made of different sprites. He just appears that way. There's just something off with his animations CV4, though.
Me too. That's great stuff!
Quote from: RyuHayabusa on 01/25/2014, 01:10 PMSNES Dracula X was 16 meg I believe, which is only 2 megabytes, nothing compared to a CD. Also, for whatever reason Konami chose to go a different route rather than make a straight port of Rondo. Looking at the sprites it's obvious that the SNES could've handled a straight port had they had the space. Rondo is not a game that couldn't have been done on the SNES had it had a CD attachment.
Rondo is about 16-18megabits total (well, excluding cinemas). The SNES has enough space. Not only that, but the SNES has 128k of work ram; they could have been used for even better compression schemes because of its size. Space wasn't the issue.
Quote from: TurboXray on 01/25/2014, 02:57 PMQuote from: RyuHayabusa on 01/25/2014, 01:10 PMSNES Dracula X was 16 meg I believe, which is only 2 megabytes, nothing compared to a CD. Also, for whatever reason Konami chose to go a different route rather than make a straight port of Rondo. Looking at the sprites it's obvious that the SNES could've handled a straight port had they had the space. Rondo is not a game that couldn't have been done on the SNES had it had a CD attachment.
Rondo is about 16-18megabits total (well, excluding cinemas). The SNES has enough space. Not only that, but the SNES has 128k of work ram; they could have been used for even better compression schemes because of its size. Space wasn't the issue.
Wow, interesting.
So, could Rondo have been on a 20 meg Huey, minus cinemas and only PCB music?
Quote from: PukeSter on 01/25/2014, 03:54 PMQuote from: TurboXray on 01/25/2014, 02:57 PMQuote from: RyuHayabusa on 01/25/2014, 01:10 PMSNES Dracula X was 16 meg I believe, which is only 2 megabytes, nothing compared to a CD. Also, for whatever reason Konami chose to go a different route rather than make a straight port of Rondo. Looking at the sprites it's obvious that the SNES could've handled a straight port had they had the space. Rondo is not a game that couldn't have been done on the SNES had it had a CD attachment.
Rondo is about 16-18megabits total (well, excluding cinemas). The SNES has enough space. Not only that, but the SNES has 128k of work ram; they could have been used for even better compression schemes because of its size. Space wasn't the issue.
Wow, interesting.
So, could Rondo have been on a 20 meg Huey, minus cinemas and only PCB music?
And fewer voice/sound samples, but since the samples were already stretched thin in the CD version, enough could be kept at a low quality that it would seem like not much was lost.
Quote from: TurboXray on 01/25/2014, 02:57 PMQuote from: RyuHayabusa on 01/25/2014, 01:10 PMSNES Dracula X was 16 meg I believe, which is only 2 megabytes, nothing compared to a CD. Also, for whatever reason Konami chose to go a different route rather than make a straight port of Rondo. Looking at the sprites it's obvious that the SNES could've handled a straight port had they had the space. Rondo is not a game that couldn't have been done on the SNES had it had a CD attachment.
Rondo is about 16-18megabits total (well, excluding cinemas). The SNES has enough space. Not only that, but the SNES has 128k of work ram; they could have been used for even better compression schemes because of its size. Space wasn't the issue.
I think you're waaaaay off here. Rondo has two data tracks on the disk apart from the audio tracks. Both of those data tracks are around 20 megaBYTES each. Not megaBITS, megaBYTES. So, you're comparing Castlevania IV and Dracula X SNES which are 1 and 2 megabytes to Rondo which is 40 megabytes. Yes, some of that is for cinemas but not that much. Rondo could NOT have been done on a 20 megabit huey minus the cinemas and music.
Quote from: RyuHayabusa on 01/25/2014, 05:49 PMQuote from: TurboXray on 01/25/2014, 02:57 PMQuote from: RyuHayabusa on 01/25/2014, 01:10 PMSNES Dracula X was 16 meg I believe, which is only 2 megabytes, nothing compared to a CD. Also, for whatever reason Konami chose to go a different route rather than make a straight port of Rondo. Looking at the sprites it's obvious that the SNES could've handled a straight port had they had the space. Rondo is not a game that couldn't have been done on the SNES had it had a CD attachment.
Rondo is about 16-18megabits total (well, excluding cinemas). The SNES has enough space. Not only that, but the SNES has 128k of work ram; they could have been used for even better compression schemes because of its size. Space wasn't the issue.
I think you're waaaaay off here. Rondo has two data tracks on the disk apart from the audio tracks. Both of those data tracks are around 20 megaBYTES each. Not megaBITS, megaBYTES. So, you're comparing Castlevania IV and Dracula X SNES which are 1 and 2 megabytes to Rondo which is 40 megabytes. Yes, some of that is for cinemas but not that much. Rondo could NOT have been done on a 20 megabit huey minus the cinemas and music.
It has been discussed in the forum many times before. The game has a specific number of loads for in-game content. Each stage before a boss uses <2 megs. Judging by how much content there is in that, it seems unlikely that any bosses use more than <1 meg. But each of these sequences are using duplicate assets for Richter and misc, which means that the in-game content is even smaller than the sum of each stage/boss.
Even if we count Stage 0, and
even if you believe that each load of in-game content
completely fills the Super CD's 2 megababit memory... where exactly are the missing
295 max-memory-filling loads required to equal 40 megabytes?
Quote from: guest on 01/25/2014, 06:18 PMQuote from: RyuHayabusa on 01/25/2014, 05:49 PMQuote from: TurboXray on 01/25/2014, 02:57 PMQuote from: RyuHayabusa on 01/25/2014, 01:10 PMSNES Dracula X was 16 meg I believe, which is only 2 megabytes, nothing compared to a CD. Also, for whatever reason Konami chose to go a different route rather than make a straight port of Rondo. Looking at the sprites it's obvious that the SNES could've handled a straight port had they had the space. Rondo is not a game that couldn't have been done on the SNES had it had a CD attachment.
Rondo is about 16-18megabits total (well, excluding cinemas). The SNES has enough space. Not only that, but the SNES has 128k of work ram; they could have been used for even better compression schemes because of its size. Space wasn't the issue.
I think you're waaaaay off here. Rondo has two data tracks on the disk apart from the audio tracks. Both of those data tracks are around 20 megaBYTES each. Not megaBITS, megaBYTES. So, you're comparing Castlevania IV and Dracula X SNES which are 1 and 2 megabytes to Rondo which is 40 megabytes. Yes, some of that is for cinemas but not that much. Rondo could NOT have been done on a 20 megabit huey minus the cinemas and music.
It has been discussed in the forum many times before. The game has a specific number of loads for in-game content. Each stage before a boss uses <2 megs. Judging by how much content there is in that, it seems unlikely that any bosses use more than <1 meg. But each of these sequences are using duplicate assets for Richter and misc, which means that the in-game content is even smaller than the sum of each stage/boss.
Even if we count Stage 0, and even if you believe that each load of in-game content completely fills the Super CD's 2 megababit memory... where exactly are the missing 295 max-memory-filling loads required to equal 40 megabytes?
Well, let's just look at it this way. Not counting Dracula and the 4 bosses on Stage 6 since they're loaded with their stages, there are 11 bosses. There are 13 stages all together including the prologue. I don't how much data each stage takes up but let's say that each stage, including the bosses, is 2 meg. That alone is 26 meg, considerably more than either Castlevania IV or SNES Drac X. So we're talking a 3 megabyte game here. The rest of that 40 megabytes is voice tracks and cinemas. I misspoke about cinemas not taking up that much because it does take up the majority of the space alone with the music tracks. But, Rondo is a much bigger game than either Castlevania IV or SNES Drac X.
Sorry to kill the momentum of the last few posts, but has anybody tried this?
Boot up Dracula X in the TCD add-on with the wrong system card in your turbo grafx; this will load a secret mini-game
Quote from: RyuHayabusa on 01/25/2014, 05:49 PMQuote from: TurboXray on 01/25/2014, 02:57 PMQuote from: RyuHayabusa on 01/25/2014, 01:10 PMSNES Dracula X was 16 meg I believe, which is only 2 megabytes, nothing compared to a CD. Also, for whatever reason Konami chose to go a different route rather than make a straight port of Rondo. Looking at the sprites it's obvious that the SNES could've handled a straight port had they had the space. Rondo is not a game that couldn't have been done on the SNES had it had a CD attachment.
Rondo is about 16-18megabits total (well, excluding cinemas). The SNES has enough space. Not only that, but the SNES has 128k of work ram; they could have been used for even better compression schemes because of its size. Space wasn't the issue.
I think you're waaaaay off here. Rondo has two data tracks on the disk apart from the audio tracks. Both of those data tracks are around 20 megaBYTES each. Not megaBITS, megaBYTES. So, you're comparing Castlevania IV and Dracula X SNES which are 1 and 2 megabytes to Rondo which is 40 megabytes. Yes, some of that is for cinemas but not that much. Rondo could NOT have been done on a 20 megabit huey minus the cinemas and music.
Look, I'm not trying to be an ass - but I actually
looked into this game. And I'm the one that did the print and compression routines for it PCECD Dracula X translation project (including the title screen). I know bit about this game on a technical level. I was looking for secret stages in the ISO, based on all the CD read commands and tracked all the LBA/sector offsets (I found part of one, but not the rest of it). There is a lot of redundant data loaded each level. So while each level might load <2megabits, there's redundant data in those loads (tiles and sprites) across the level layouts. You can't simply look at data track/iso, and say that's what the game requires. There are huge gaps in the data track that aren't used (this is VERY common for PCECD games). And the second data track is there for redundant reasons ~only~. It's the same track
I'm go by Bonknuts here, but I'm tomaitheous elsewhere (in relation to coding). If you don't want to take my word for it, then take a look for yourself in a debugger.
Quote from: galam on 01/25/2014, 10:59 PMSorry to kill the momentum of the last few posts, but has anybody tried this?
Boot up Dracula X in the TCD add-on with the wrong system card in your turbo grafx; this will load a secret mini-game
lol..are you serious? :lol:
Quote from: Tatsujin on 01/26/2014, 12:17 AMQuote from: galam on 01/25/2014, 10:59 PMSorry to kill the momentum of the last few posts, but has anybody tried this?
Boot up Dracula X in the TCD add-on with the wrong system card in your turbo grafx; this will load a secret mini-game
lol..are you serious? :lol:
I know I know, but it was on gamefaqs and I didn't know if it was true.
Quote from: galam on 01/26/2014, 12:43 AMQuote from: Tatsujin on 01/26/2014, 12:17 AMQuote from: galam on 01/25/2014, 10:59 PMSorry to kill the momentum of the last few posts, but has anybody tried this?
Boot up Dracula X in the TCD add-on with the wrong system card in your turbo grafx; this will load a secret mini-game
lol..are you serious? :lol:
I know I know, but it was on gamefaqs and I didn't know if it was true.
here.. @10:30 :)
Castlevania Video Marathon: Rondo of Blood (PC Engine) (Richter 100% ending + Stage X) (https://youtu.be/R6_xJt1DFCU)
http://youtu.be/R6_xJt1DFCU
Rad
Quote from: awack on 01/24/2014, 11:37 PMIn some ways SCIV is a study in how not to design a game,
The rest of your post gives zero actual reasons why you think this ridiculous statement is true.
Quoteeven people who call it their favorite game of all time tell you that you just have to get past the first three or four levels and then things pick up,
Most games start slowly. SCIV and RoB aren't too different in that regard, and I wouldn't say that you need to get past the first three or four levels before things pick up in SCIV, no.
Quotefor the most part you will only have around 2 or 3 enemies on screen at once, you have far more on screen in Rondo of course,
SCIV was a very early SNES game. Konami had not yet mastered how to get around the slow SNES CPU, so they had to have fewer enemies and it slows down anyway. I wish that the SNES had gotten a second Castlevania game as good as its first one, but SNES Dracula X does show visual and speed improvements, at least. But despite that, SCIV's good graphical design and very good level designs stand out, in addition to that fantastic music.
Quotethe main way you or at least most people die in SCIV from what Ive seen is from disappearing blocks and such, in Rondo its doing battle with enemies,
Enemies can kill you in SCIV too, particularly in the 'second quest' when the game gets a bit harder... while RoB doesn't have a harder setting, unless you count Richter as the hard mode.
Quoteenemy AI seems to be far superior In Rondo as well,
This is probably true.
QuoteSCIV gives you multi direction whip...incomparison Rondo gives you the ability to jump on and OFF stairs, multiple characters, different paths to choose, item crash, back flip, slide, tumble, double jump, money actually has a purpose, able to pick your secondary weapon back up, a lot of people might not know but if you keep your finger on the jump button your able to control your jump, and the turtle crash, your able to control where goes (up or down) with the direction pad.
The multi-direction whip is far more important, useful, and powerful than any of that stuff you listed that RoB has. It's not that close (Maria + red birds is good, as long as your special weapon stock holds up, but still the multi-directional whip has fewer limitations.). Those other moves in RoB are nice to have, though, for sure. They do help make the game better.
QuoteLike I was saying before, here are some of the fx/animations that are still being used today, no other snes or genesis game can claim this. This is where Rondo of blood is the best of its generation.
Game on CD that has a lot more space to put a lot more animation in the game than any cartridge game could match uses that space well. News at 11. No, this isn't any kind of argument against SCIV. If anything it's a good one the other way, showing how much they did with the small space of that cartridge!
QuoteMost games start slowly. SCIV and RoB aren't too different in that regard, and I wouldn't say that you need to get past the first three or four levels before things pick up in SCIV, no
I don't know too many people who would agree that they start out about the same, you said that you probably agree that rondo has better AI, in SCIV there is hardly ever more than a couple of enemies on screen with enemies that just walk back and forth combined with the long multi directional whip, makes disposing of them, way too easy, like the first boss(skeleton horse and rider) all you have to do is stand in one place and whip and in no time hes dead, Medusa is even worse. now take rondo, the green skeleton swordsman has a good level of AI, he will actually react to your moves such as by sliding under your whip, the blue knight in front of the bridge seems to pose more of a challenge to players than the first few bosses in SCIV,
This is before the more difficult platforming shows up later in the game, these are some reasons why myself and others make that statement about the first few levels.
Quotebut SNES Dracula X does show visual and speed improvements, at least.
Yes, it does show an improvement over SCIV like you say, but compared to rondo, its a different story, take the fight against death, there is half the amount of blood from death when hit onscreen , there is also half the number of cycles flying onscreen at as well, at the same time every thing moves slower like death richter, they up the difficulty in Drac xx by shrinking the platform your fighting on and taking damage when ever you touch death.
QuoteThe multi-direction whip is far more important, useful, and powerful than any of that stuff you listed that RoB has. It's not that close (Maria + red birds is good, as long as your special weapon stock holds up, but still the multi-directional whip has fewer limitations.). Those other moves in RoB are nice to have, though, for sure. They do help make the game better.
In my opinion, the multi directional whip combined with the type of opposition you face makes for very unbalanced gameplay.
QuoteGame on CD that has a lot more space to put a lot more animation in the game than any cartridge game could match uses that space well. News at 11. No, this isn't any kind of argument against SCIV. If anything it's a good one the other way, showing how much they did with the small space of that cartridge!
I completely agree, I don't use SCIV for comparison because its an early game and the fore sucks, I do it because I already have it done up for showing, for an 8 meg game, its pretty amazing, like they used some kind of awesome compression scheme.
Love your sprite rip work, from Bonknuts.
Thank you so much, knowing all the details in a game makes me appreciate the game even more.
Quoteawack, I would be interested if you have more PCE sprite rips. I wonder what other games are as technically good as Rondo, but behind the scenes. HuCard rips of beautiful games like New Adventure Island and Twinbee, would be interesting too!
No other action game is even close to Rondo, the second most beautiful game when it comes to those type of sprites is Cotton for the PCE, and of course the snes cotton, which uses the same type of special fx doesn't even come close, ill post some comparison shots, believe it or not one of the best in my opinion is Demons crest for the snes, the Genesis can put a lot of stuff on screen at once (great CPU) it has one major problem in its low number of sub palettes, take rondo for example, a boss can be shooting a projectile at you, you can be pulling off a item crash, plus things bursting into flames, your putting an extra 20 to 40 colors onscreen at once, so things will lose a lot of flash due to that.
pce cotton
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/cotton8bee_zps20ea68f9.png)
snes cotton,
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/mc31r_zps756ea417.png)
Some more things about Rondo, it doesn't have a handful or a few dozen of background animations, it has hundreds, it doesn't have dozens of unique sound fx, it has hundreds, and of course it doesn't have hundreds of sprite frames, it has thousands.
Quote from: TurboXray on 01/26/2014, 12:04 AMQuote from: RyuHayabusa on 01/25/2014, 05:49 PMQuote from: TurboXray on 01/25/2014, 02:57 PMQuote from: RyuHayabusa on 01/25/2014, 01:10 PMSNES Dracula X was 16 meg I believe, which is only 2 megabytes, nothing compared to a CD. Also, for whatever reason Konami chose to go a different route rather than make a straight port of Rondo. Looking at the sprites it's obvious that the SNES could've handled a straight port had they had the space. Rondo is not a game that couldn't have been done on the SNES had it had a CD attachment.
Rondo is about 16-18megabits total (well, excluding cinemas). The SNES has enough space. Not only that, but the SNES has 128k of work ram; they could have been used for even better compression schemes because of its size. Space wasn't the issue.
I think you're waaaaay off here. Rondo has two data tracks on the disk apart from the audio tracks. Both of those data tracks are around 20 megaBYTES each. Not megaBITS, megaBYTES. So, you're comparing Castlevania IV and Dracula X SNES which are 1 and 2 megabytes to Rondo which is 40 megabytes. Yes, some of that is for cinemas but not that much. Rondo could NOT have been done on a 20 megabit huey minus the cinemas and music.
Look, I'm not trying to be an ass - but I actually looked into this game. And I'm the one that did the print and compression routines for it PCECD Dracula X translation project (including the title screen). I know bit about this game on a technical level. I was looking for secret stages in the ISO, based on all the CD read commands and tracked all the LBA/sector offsets (I found part of one, but not the rest of it). There is a lot of redundant data loaded each level. So while each level might load <2megabits, there's redundant data in those loads (tiles and sprites) across the level layouts. You can't simply look at data track/iso, and say that's what the game requires. There are huge gaps in the data track that aren't used (this is VERY common for PCECD games). And the second data track is there for redundant reasons ~only~. It's the same track
I'm go by Bonknuts here, but I'm tomaitheous elsewhere (in relation to coding). If you don't want to take my word for it, then take a look for yourself in a debugger.
That's cool and all but that doesn't change the fact that being a Super CD game gave Rondo a huge advantage over CIV due to the sheer amount of space for frames of animation, different tiles, etc. If you look at CIV there is a lot of repetition when it comes to tiles used throughout each level. Less enemies, less frames of animation, etc. 1 megabyte will only hold so much. Even if the PCE can only load 256k into memory at one time it's loading from a much larger pool of sprite and tile data. Heck, 256k is 1/4th of the entire game of CIV. You might want to read awack's last post and his comparison of PCE and SNES Cotton, same situation as Rondo and SNES Drac X. Super CD equals faaaar more frames of animation, background animations, sound fx, etc. I mentioned Forgotten Worlds earlier before. PCE Forgotten World is a Super CD while FW Genesis is 4 megs. We all know how much better the PCE port is and the main reason for that is the CD format. Sure, the colors will always be a bit better on the PCE but other than that don't you think the Genesis port could've had better looking bosses, backgrounds, music, etc if it was on CD? And two player as well.
QuoteGame on CD that has a lot more space to put a lot more animation in the game than any cartridge game could match uses that space well. News at 11.
Quote from: RyuHayabusa on 01/26/2014, 07:06 AMThat's cool and all but that doesn't change the fact that being a Super CD game gave Rondo a huge advantage over CIV due to the sheer amount of space for frames of animation, different tiles, etc.
Heck, 256k is 1/4th of the entire game of CIV. You might want to read awack's last post and his comparison of PCE and SNES Cotton, same situation as Rondo and SNES Drac X. Super CD equals faaaar more frames of animation, background animations, sound fx, etc.
It's actually the opposite. CD-ROM is a storage format, but not all CD software platforms are identical. PC Engine CD2 and SCD games are extremely bottle-necked. Cart games can use assets from anywhere in the rom at any time. PCE CD games have to load a tiny amount and only do what they can with that. Bonknuts has said that the code alone can take up half the space that CD2 games get to use at a time. And again, each load is using duplicate code that could perhaps(?) be read from the same spot each time on cart.
The amount of space that CD discs have for storage doesn't mean anything when it comes to most genres. No PCE game ever comes close to denting the that space with anything other than CD and adpcm audio (News at 11!). Even the fmv heavy games aren't using much space for graphics.
The SNES however has a huge amount of ram for decompressing data off of carts. That's what so many SNES games are doing during their longer-than-PCE-CD-game-load-screens. Meanwhile a game like Drac X duplicates tiles for each boss fight and always loads duplicate sprites and code. A 6 stage HuCard version could be done at around 8 megs. It wouldn't have so much superfluous content, but would still be very impressive. When you account for all the duplication and count the loads, there's no way that a seemingly identical in-game experience described in a previous post wouldn't be around 16 megs.
The big disadvantage that the SNES has is the fact that it got saddled with sample-based audio by the time that CD audio had already become standard. So SNES games have to waste a bunch of space just to have sound.
QuoteEven if the PCE can only load 256k into memory at one time it's loading from a much larger pool of sprite and tile data.
Again, count the loads, do the addition and use common sense for how much gets reused. You still haven't accounted for the missing 295 loads you claim make up the actual game (even with that ignoring all the duplication). By your logic, Castlevania IV may be 40MB uncompressed. Or even more to what you're saying, there are SNES cart games which have huge storage on them, therefore SNES carts have huge pool to draw from, therefore Cvastlevania IV does.
We know what's in Dracula X. Bonknuts has taken apart countless PCE and misc games apart and is an expert (
even though this is just common sense). He's even looked inside Dracula X and helped the translation get done.
Every PCE CD game is not a 4400 megabit cartridge.
QuoteI mentioned Forgotten Worlds earlier before. PCE Forgotten World is a Super CD while FW Genesis is 4 megs. We all know how much better the PCE port is and the main reason for that is the CD format. Sure, the colors will always be a bit better on the PCE but other than that don't you think the Genesis port could've had better looking bosses, backgrounds, music, etc if it was on CD? And two player as well.
If the Sega-CD got a port of Fortrgotten Worlds done the way that the PCE version was, then it would have likely sacrificed 2-player gameplay as well. The Sega-CD has 3 times the space of what Super CD games get to load into. But you're still thinking about it all wrong, there's no reason to bring up the Sega-CD. The PCE version's stages without bosses can't be more than <16 megs. It's obvious not only how much gets recycled, but how stages like the vertical ones aren't filling the 2 meg space. It's just another average sized 16-bit console game.
QuoteNo, this isn't any kind of argument against SCIV. If anything it's a good one the other way, showing how much they did with the small space of that cartridge!
Not when you compare it to games like the 6 meg Valis III for Genesis.
Quote from: RyuHayabusa on 01/26/2014, 07:06 AMThat's cool and all but that doesn't change the fact that being a Super CD game gave Rondo a huge advantage over CIV due to the sheer amount of space for frames of animation, different tiles, etc. If you look at CIV there is a lot of repetition when it comes to tiles used throughout each level. Less enemies, less frames of animation, etc. 1 megabyte will only hold so much. Even if the PCE can only load 256k into memory at one time it's loading from a much larger pool of sprite and tile data. Heck, 256k is 1/4th of the entire game of CIV. You might want to read awack's last post and his comparison of PCE and SNES Cotton, same situation as Rondo and SNES Drac X. Super CD equals faaaar more frames of animation, background animations, sound fx, etc. I mentioned Forgotten Worlds earlier before. PCE Forgotten World is a Super CD while FW Genesis is 4 megs. We all know how much better the PCE port is and the main reason for that is the CD format. Sure, the colors will always be a bit better on the PCE but other than that don't you think the Genesis port could've had better looking bosses, backgrounds, music, etc if it was on CD? And two player as well.
Ok... but what does any of that have to do with what I said? You stated Rondo couldn't be ported to the snes 'cause it was like 40 megabytes. I said the game, excluding cinemas and such, is around 18megabits. That's definitely doable with SNES cart space limitations. Did you reply to the wrong person?
I'll admit I'm no expert with all the technical stuff. I'm just trying to understand how Rondo of Blood, with all it's extra stages, extra bosses, twice as many lesser enemies, tons more frames of animation, sound fx, etc would be the roughly the same size as SNES Dracula X at 16-18 meg, minus the cinemas and music tracks.
by Pce being the superior hardware? :P
I don't know why rondo stands out so much from other action games, heres an interesting fact.
take SCIV, bloodlines, Actraiser, Actraiser 2, the adventures of batman and robin for the genesis, and lightning force, all of those combined, you just about equal rondo in sprite frames, most games use sprite flipping or color swaping for animation, rondo uses more but that's because it uses more of everything, but you have to take into consideration that the sprites in rondo are much larger than the other games.
Quote from: awack on 01/27/2014, 08:07 PMI don't know why rondo stands out so much from other action games, heres an interesting fact.
take SCIV, bloodlines, Actraiser, Actraiser 2, the adventures of batman and robin for the genesis, and lightning force, all of those combined, you just about equal rondo in sprite frames, most games use sprite flipping or color swaping for animation, rondo uses more but that's because it uses more of everything, but you have to take into consideration that the sprites in rondo are much larger than the other games.
Interesting. Bonknuts is saying that Rondo of Blood would be roughly the same size as SNES Dracula X, minus the cinemas, but that doesn't make any sense considering how many more stages, bosses, frames of animation, sound fx, etc. that Rondo has. Have you looked at SNES Dracula X and compared the frames of animation between the two?
Quote from: RyuHayabusa on 01/26/2014, 05:00 PMI'll admit I'm no expert with all the technical stuff. I'm just trying to understand how Rondo of Blood, with all it's extra stages, extra bosses, twice as many lesser enemies, tons more frames of animation, sound fx, etc would be the roughly the same size as SNES Dracula X at 16-18 meg, minus the cinemas and music tracks.
Not all the frames up animation in Rondo are pixel/bitmap frames. There's a lot of flipping sprites and subpalette animation, as well as what looks like real time composite animation (using few animated sprites moving around each other to create a lot more 'unique' frames of animation). That takes up a lot less than simply storing them as tiny bitmaps to be uploaded.
Also, I didn't include Maria's animation and character in that size/figure - because she's not in the SNES port. I didn't include music, because that's Redbook. The SNES obviously is gonna need space for the samples and the music data itself. I don't know how much this takes up; you'll have to look into the snes rom and check for yourself. I also didn't include the ADPCM samples from Rondo, but SNES would have used lower frequency variant with added echo. And it already has its own ADPCM samples.
The snes version appears to have a decent amount of non-tiled graphics for the background. As well as two or three tilemap layers. That'll eat up a little bit memory just for the extra tilemaps (compressed or not). And of course non-tiled detail takes up more space.
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
Edit: Just popped the SNES rom into a tile viewer; there's a
LOT of unused space in the SNES rom. It might be a 16megabit rom, but the game isn't using all 16megabits. There's a decent chunk of uncompressed sprites for the main character and weapons. That's pretty lazy of them, considering they had 128k of work ram to use. I.e. They could have decompressed the player sprites to work ram, and fetched from there. That would have saved some space.
Quote from: RyuHayabusa on 01/27/2014, 08:20 PMQuote from: awack on 01/27/2014, 08:07 PMI don't know why rondo stands out so much from other action games, heres an interesting fact.
take SCIV, bloodlines, Actraiser, Actraiser 2, the adventures of batman and robin for the genesis, and lightning force, all of those combined, you just about equal rondo in sprite frames, most games use sprite flipping or color swaping for animation, rondo uses more but that's because it uses more of everything, but you have to take into consideration that the sprites in rondo are much larger than the other games.
Interesting. Bonknuts is saying that Rondo of Blood would be roughly the same size as SNES Dracula X, minus the cinemas, but that doesn't make any sense considering how many more stages, bosses, frames of animation, sound fx, etc. that Rondo has. Have you looked at SNES Dracula X and compared the frames of animation between the two?
Many times.
The main difference is that Rondo is amazingly polished while DracXX was clearly a quick cash-in. Rondo's biggest asset is the
quality. Just as the Sonic and DKC games were designed to make the most of the hardware, Rondo shows to those who can appreciate it, how the developers play tested the game to death and tweaked and designed it perfectly.
People like Black Falcon like to use checklists to understand games (
even if his begins and ends with "-Nintendo or not?"). In other forums people trying to prove Castlevania IV's superiority have also tried the oblivious "8 directions are better than fewer!" whip gameplay argument. This only makes any sense to people who don't actually play or appreciate games. Those of us without a cabinet full of unused Mach 3 and Mach 4 razors understand that great gameplay involves so many variables which must be balanced together. An 8-way whip is only worth what you can and must do with it. Perhaps a Castlevania game could make proper use of it, but Castlevania IV doesn't justify its existence with complimentary stage and enemy design and control/collision. The potential as a general idea is almost wasted it's so unfulfilled.
Using checklist logic, Drac XX has the exact same gameplay as the PCE original. Anyone who can appreciate gameplay knew as soon as they tried DracXX how completely untrue that is. The main actions are there, but the response/timing is off. It's not simply different, it's broken to a degree. Separate from that, the stages and enemy placement/behavior were designed without any understanding or thought about what made the original so special or about making everything work in general. Just like how an original stage hacked into an existing game isn't automatically the same quality as the professionally designed ones. DracXX's all-round brokenness can lead to getting clipped at full health and being juggled around till death, without the player being able to control the situation at all.
All the warts of that game show how little care went into it. It just happens to be a remake of a game that received as much care as anything from that time. You can't just count the number of stages, or megs or anything else to quantify what makes Rondo of Blood so special or to compare it to similar titles. The aesthetics may have been fine tuned to maximize art, style, and quantity, but even if you strip away the aesthetics, the gameplay transcends the Castlevania series and brought it an entire knew level which has yet to be surpassed. Considering how bottlenecked the game is by aiming so high while at the same time honoring is roots so faithfully, it's all the more impressive and a testament to just how much the developers cared about the project, instead of just churning out a Castlevania game for "platform X".
Koji Igarashi appreciated all of this and that's why Symphony of the Night* came to be as it is and the rest of the great 2D Castlevanias which followed. Rondo is one of the greatest and most inspired game series reboots in history.
*People who don't get games just think SotN/NitM is Super Metroid + Castlevania -end of thought. Like Reese peanut butter cups. Unfortunately games (like films) are likely pitched this way today. Look at how Sonic 4 turned out. "It's got everything on our list of what
looks like all the elements of Sonic games to us!"
nothing much to add here, beside the interesting fun fact that rondo was konamis most expensive game developement at that time, which only confirms all the above written.
QuoteInteresting. Bonknuts is saying that Rondo of Blood would be roughly the same size as SNES Dracula X, minus the cinemas, but that doesn't make any sense considering how many more stages, bosses, frames of animation, sound fx, etc. that Rondo has. Have you looked at SNES Dracula X and compared the frames of animation between the two?
Yes ive compared dracxx too rondo, look at the pic below, its of rondo sprites.
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/zzwwzz1_zpsa813d88f.png)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/screenshots/zzwwz1_zps2bf72707.png)
Dracula xx and rondo both use sprite flipping and palette cycling/swapping, of course rondo uses it more partly because many time more frames of animation to begin with, this stuff takes a lot less memory than actual frames, on the flip side take a look at the some of the biggest sprites in the game like rock golem, the big purple skull, bone golem boss, the horses, the giant flower, the painting, the cross, the dragon, the dead wyvern(dragon), Frankenstein, the two large skull attacks, the phenox, the green armor knight with ball and chain and the cat item crash, basically most of the largest sprites were done away with completely, and one of the bosses that was changed from the dragon to the three headed panther is much smaller than the rondo counter part, on top of that the dragon from rondo has almost two and a half more frames of real animation, plus the other large bosses in Draculaxx like the serpant boss and demon form Dracula are a bit smaller, plus, the big sprites that were kept far have far fewer frames of animation like the bull.
I just added up what Bonknuts is saying, dracxx memory includes music, soundfx, cutscenes, and a few other things, I think what he got from rondo Is just code and graphics, in theory, if all of the adpcm memory was used each load in rondo that would be eleven and a half megs, taking all that into account, it would seem that rondo is the largest action game(shmups, platform shooters, hack n slash type games) released on the three major 16bit consoles
Jesus titty-fucking Christ, guys... this thread has degenerated into a pissing contest with people comparing megs, bits, and sprite frames as if they can somehow come up with a mathematical formula to determine which is the best game, based on those figures.
Sometimes a game is more than just the sum of its parts. Sometimes a game is better because it's just more fun to play. Is Rondo the most animated platformer of the 16-bit era? Probably. Is that why it's awesome? No... it's awesome because the development team at Konami poured their heart and soul into that game, and it shows. The artwork, the music, the level design, the attention to detail... all the subjective and intangible things is what Rondo got so very right. But the real reason why Rondo is awesome is because once you start playing it you CAN'T FUCKING STOP. It's like an addiction. You have to know what's in the other path. Where that last 10% of the game is. The only other Castlevania games that I got that feeling from were 1 and 3 on the NES and SotN on the PSX. *THAT*, my friends, is what makes Rondo amazing...
Quote from: fragmare on 01/28/2014, 04:22 AMSometimes a game is more than just the sum of its parts. Sometimes a game is better because it's just more fun to play. Is Rondo the most animated platformer of the 16-bit era? Probably. Is that why it's awesome? No
This is a good point. Look at Earthworm Jim. It's much more well animated than Rondo, but plays rather sloppier. Animation frames don't make a game.
Hell, want to know why Legendary Axe is still one of the best Huey's? Sure, it may look a little dated, and environments can be repetitive. But, the way the Axe system is designed forces the player to be either calculative and strategic, and the build-up of power makes it oh so rewarding. Not to mention atmospheric music, and awesome enemies with smart AI.
And the final boss will never be forgotten...
QuoteThis is a good point. Look at Earthworm Jim. It's much more well animated than Rondo, but plays rather sloppier. Animation frames don't make a game.
In my opinion, more frames can make for a better game, rondo for example...first of all I have to point out that rondo has thousands more frames of animation, also individual enemies have more frames, EWJ has between 20 and 40 frames per boss, rondo has between 70 and 240 frames per boss, some of those are flips or color swapping though.... what EWJ and many other cartoony type platformers do is have only one move per enemy, they put all the frames in that one move, where is in rondo there can be three, four, five or so moves...this can but not always make for a more fun game, a few bosses from each game below to show what I mean.
EWJ
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/aaaaa_zps96822fc4.png) (http://s567.photobucket.com/user/bethcongo/media/bethcongo006/aaaaa_zps96822fc4.png.html)
EWJ
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/aaaa_zps03e350cf.png) (http://s567.photobucket.com/user/bethcongo/media/bethcongo006/aaaa_zps03e350cf.png.html)
EWJ
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/aaa_zps22b4e0f7.png) (http://s567.photobucket.com/user/bethcongo/media/bethcongo006/aaa_zps22b4e0f7.png.html)
EWJ
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/aa_zpse9244d39.png) (http://s567.photobucket.com/user/bethcongo/media/bethcongo006/aa_zpse9244d39.png.html)
EWJ
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/a_zps04d510c2.png) (http://s567.photobucket.com/user/bethcongo/media/bethcongo006/a_zps04d510c2.png.html)
the rondo sheets are so big that you have to scroll over to the right.
RONDO DRACULA
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-100728_1130aazzll_zpsd0b5dfe8.png) (http://s567.photobucket.com/user/bethcongo/media/bethcongo006/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-100728_1130aazzll_zpsd0b5dfe8.png.html)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-100820_1635jj_zps4b853c29.png) (http://s567.photobucket.com/user/bethcongo/media/bethcongo006/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-100820_1635jj_zps4b853c29.png.html)
RONDO MINATOUR
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/untitledloismiu-1_zps899a8849.png) (http://s567.photobucket.com/user/bethcongo/media/bethcongo006/untitledloismiu-1_zps899a8849.png.html)
RONDO DEATH
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/untitlededsggggggggghhg_zpse35ee206.png) (http://s567.photobucket.com/user/bethcongo/media/bethcongo006/untitlededsggggggggghhg_zpse35ee206.png.html)
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/Untitledl_zpsb076386e.png) (http://s567.photobucket.com/user/bethcongo/media/bethcongo006/Untitledl_zpsb076386e.png.html)
RONDO SHAFT
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/untitledfsdd_zps75e4475e.png) (http://s567.photobucket.com/user/bethcongo/media/bethcongo006/untitledfsdd_zps75e4475e.png.html)
RONDO WYVERN
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-100528_1805_8ji-1_zpsb89c507b.png) (http://s567.photobucket.com/user/bethcongo/media/bethcongo006/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-100528_1805_8ji-1_zpsb89c507b.png.html)
RONDO WAREWOLF
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-100610_1809we9_zpsb1f3f988.png) (http://s567.photobucket.com/user/bethcongo/media/bethcongo006/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-100610_1809we9_zpsb1f3f988.png.html)
RONDO DULAHAN
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1-20eeeey_zpsd1195b47.png) (http://s567.photobucket.com/user/bethcongo/media/bethcongo006/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1-20eeeey_zpsd1195b47.png.html)
non boss enemy from rondo, this is what I mean, he jumps out of window, walks, runs, jumps, kicks, flips, sword attack, has death animation, and two different sparks from sword attack depending on where you face him, i realize im becoming more and more of a dip shit fanboy every day :?
RONDO
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1-13_zps73d4dc56.png) (http://s567.photobucket.com/user/bethcongo/media/bethcongo006/CDAkumajouDraculaX-ChinoRondoJ-1-13_zps73d4dc56.png.html)
I completely agree about Axe 2, could you imagine a super cd Axe 3.
Forgive how dumb I am, but how do you guys make these frame breakdowns?
Cartoony animation like Earthworm Jim's stands out more because it's supposed to be exaggerated, with lots of bouncing. Games using a realistic and detailed style with clean polished pixel art like Dracula X don't usually have such perfect animation/consistency among key frames. Usually games like that have noticeable off-model frames or rely more on just waving a limb or something off of the same few frames, in an unnatural looking way. Rondo is packed with lots of fully original frames with animations, but also has lots of animating bits attached to shared frames, but it always looks natural. It's a testament to how well done the animation is done overall, that most people don't realize just how massive the number of frames is throughout the game. And that's part of the mystique: the maintained the same standard from beginning to end for all of the aesthetics. So you don't have as many money shots which stand out in other high profile games. It's all money. :)
Quote from: galam on 01/29/2014, 08:01 AMForgive how dumb I am, but how do you guys make these frame breakdowns?
Play a game in Magic Engine, turn off either the sprite or tile layer as needed, start hammering the backspace key. :wink:
Castlevania, in general, is overrated. Especially The PCE installment. The N64 Castlevanias finally introduced some new, creative ideas (motorcycle-riding skeletons, for example) that were subsequently ignored by Konami, sadly.
But, it gets worse: Rondo of Blood was originally slated to feature fresh new character designs (motorcycle-riding-skeletons), but Konami panicked and missed a golden opportunity to cross-market Honda motorcycles in Rondo of Blood...I read that that a few thousand Dracula X Crucifix Keychains had already been distributed to Honda dealerships across Japan when the cross-promotion deal was cancelled. Damn shame.
(https://junk.tg-16.com/images/honda_of_blood.png)
Thankfully, a few hundred promotional "Honda of Blood" PCE demos were sent to the dealerships. You can only play the first few stages, but I can't tell you how awesome it is to maneuver Richter around a Honda Scooter in a dungeon, or how insane Maria looks when you reach max speed on a Honda ATV (I counted 89 frames of animation for her hair blowing in the wind).
Again, Konami sucks.
Sprite sheet Pr0N!!! LOVE IT!!!
Interesting about Earthworm Jim.
In all honesty though, Awack, any other PCE sprite rips? The rips are really well done. Amount of frames does't bother me, I just want to see the beautiful sprite work. :)
Quote from: guest on 01/29/2014, 08:06 AMQuote from: galam on 01/29/2014, 08:01 AMForgive how dumb I am, but how do you guys make these frame breakdowns?
Play a game in Magic Engine, turn off either the sprite or tile layer as needed, start hammering the backspace key. :wink:
i havent used ME much. you can do this? why "backspace"? is that the screenshot hotkey or something?
or are you messing with me and i am falling for it?
Quote from: guest on 01/29/2014, 08:06 AMQuote from: galam on 01/29/2014, 08:01 AMForgive how dumb I am, but how do you guys make these frame breakdowns?
Play a game in Magic Engine, turn off either the sprite or tile layer as needed, start hammering the backspace key. :wink:
You're really better off using something like Ootake or Mednafen that has an "advance frame" option. That way you don't have to hammer the screenshot key.
I always wondered why people bothered comparing Frames of Animation between a Cart and a CD, highly dubious at best. I think Awack is stating that the MD Version of EWJ has extremly smooth animation for what it is, I always thought that too. Plus the game moves perfectly and has almost Zero Lag, just a quality representation. It would be quite interesting to see a Super CD Port of EWJ on the PCE, to see how well it would run.
Quote from: guest on 01/26/2014, 11:24 AMIf the Sega-CD got a port of Fortrgotten Worlds done the way that the PCE version was, then it would have likely sacrificed 2-player gameplay as well. The Sega-CD has 3 times the space of what Super CD games get to load into. But you're still thinking about it all wrong, there's no reason to bring up the Sega-CD. The PCE version's stages without bosses can't be more than <16 megs. It's obvious not only how much gets recycled, but how stages like the vertical ones aren't filling the 2 meg space. It's just another average sized 16-bit console game.
This Seems Confusing, isn't the Sega CD nearly double the strength of the Sega Genesis in terms of processing power? Why would it be only single player?
Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 01/29/2014, 05:34 PMQuote from: guest on 01/26/2014, 11:24 AMIf the Sega-CD got a port of Fortrgotten Worlds done the way that the PCE version was, then it would have likely sacrificed 2-player gameplay as well. The Sega-CD has 3 times the space of what Super CD games get to load into. But you're still thinking about it all wrong, there's no reason to bring up the Sega-CD. The PCE version's stages without bosses can't be more than <16 megs. It's obvious not only how much gets recycled, but how stages like the vertical ones aren't filling the 2 meg space. It's just another average sized 16-bit console game.
This Seems Confusing, isn't the Sega CD nearly double the strength of the Sega Genesis in terms of processing power? Why would it be only single player?
Yes and no. The extra processor isn't going to give you more hardware sprites on screen (or more importantly, sprite pixel per scanline limit). There would be quite a bit of flicker or blank, if you ported the SuperCD version "
as is" to the SegaCD but add in the extra player. If you used the bitmap function of the SegaCD, the frame would be about 20fps or less and all would have to share the same 15 colors for ~all~ sprites. It's one of the things they shouldn't have gone without; a simple but real 256color/8bit bitmap on the SegaCD side that overlays like the 32x did.
As it is, they could have made the SuperCD version 2 player - if they have used the lower 256 resolution.
Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 01/29/2014, 05:26 PMI always wondered why people bothered comparing Frames of Animation between a Cart and a CD, highly dubious at best.
Actually, CD games have their weakness too. So it's fair game. There's no way you can do fit even a single stage of SF2:CE from the hucard into a SuperCD game. The SuperCD is limited by it's relatively small amount of ram (simulated cart space). Carts have the advantage that you can have more animation in a single level, and CDs have the advantage of being able to have more animation across an entire game. One can, and is, superior to the other - depending on what you need for a game design. Games that re-use the same enemies/objects through out different stages, give no real benefit to a CD setup. Games that need more than 2megabit of storage access in a single level, do not work on a CD setup (unless you break the level down into 'section' loading).
Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 01/29/2014, 05:26 PMI always wondered why people bothered comparing Frames of Animation between a Cart and a CD, highly dubious at best.
While it's true that CD games are at a huge disadvantage when it comes to animation compared to carts, the games are the games. Since the PCE launched, only two consoles
haven't supported disc-based games. So you can disqualify Nintendo for two generations, but that would be highly dubious at best. Everyone with common sense takes the misc variables into consideration. It's no different than comparing two cart games which
weren't released on the same day, hardware, rom size and expertize/effort.
QuoteI think Awack is stating that the MD Version of EWJ has extremly smooth animation for what it is, I always thought that too. Plus the game moves perfectly and has almost Zero Lag, just a quality representation. It would be quite interesting to see a Super CD Port of EWJ on the PCE, to see how well it would run.
Keeping things moving faster makes it so that less frames of animation are required for it to look smooth. Slower subtle animation requires the highest number of frames to look smooth. Drac X excels with both.
It would be much more interesting to see how an Arcade Card CD version of Earthworm Jim could turn out. If not limited by the source material, an original game could be tailored for the PCE hardware to show what it can really do.
There won't be any issue as far as running extremely smooth animation with zero lag, as Sapphire runs more on-screen pixels of sprite animation with at least as many frames per second as any 16-bit console game, all with intense 2-player gameplay and zero lag (
what are these lagging games anyway?).
QuoteThis Seems Confusing, isn't the Sega CD nearly double the strength of the Sega Genesis in terms of processing power? Why would it be only single player?
The Sega-CD cpu is close to 65% faster than the Genesis cpu. But 2-player gameplay in 16-bit console games is normally bottlenecked by sprite bandwidth and not cpu power (
except maybe SNES games which slowdown a lot with only single player gameplay). Hellfire on Genesis isn't limited to single player gameplay because the PC Engine is twice as powerful as the Genesis.
As has been discussed before, Forgotten Worlds is a pixel-for-pixel port of a CPS1 game and has poor sprite optimization. I don't think that any Genesis or Sega-CD game attempted to port CPS1 assets pixel-for-pixel, but some of the Neo Geo ports look like they use arcade sized sprites. The Genesis can line up more sprites at it's wider resolution (
close to the resolution the PCE version uses), but if a Genesis/Sega-CD port was also sloppy with sprite usage, then it would also drop 2-player gameplay. Games like Hellfire, Raiden, Darius II, Mercs, Twin Cobra, Rastan Saga II, Thunderfox, Rolling Thunder 2, and Fire Shark all lost 2-player support when ported to Genesis.
Just look at the difference is sprite size and quantity in comparison pics:
https://www.tg-16.com/screenshot_comparisons.htm#Forgotten_Worlds (https://www.tg-16.com/screenshot_comparisons.htm#Forgotten_Worlds)
And that's just what you actually get to
see in the PCE version, which wastes lots of sprite bandwidth with invisible overlap.
It would also be much more than "a little less" color if a Genesis port shot for full detail (
see Final Fight CD, even with the shrinkage).
Both the Genesis/Sega-CD and PC Engine could do super detailed 2-player unique versions of Forgotten Worlds, which would look faithful to the arcade. But you can't just take the flawed PCE version and run it as-is on Genesis with more sprites.
What is the sprite limit on Sega Cd? Also again isn't it significantly easier to load more frames of animation on a cd vs a cart? I know that the frames have to load off the cd but there has to be a benefit of having a massive storage space to fit highly detailed sprite information?
Compare the NeoGeo and the NeoGeo CD. Both play the exact same games and have the same sprite hardware, the CD version was created to be cheaper. Carts went for $250+ while the same game was sold on CD for $60 or so. The trade-off is that when using CDs you have to pre-load the data into RAM.
The NeoCD therefore had a whopping 7mb of RAM, but when you only have a single speed CD-ROM, it takes a long time read that much data, hence the infamous load times. And even then 7mb wasn't enough hence cuts had to be made to later games.
Quote from: SuperDeadite on 01/29/2014, 09:19 PMCompare the NeoGeo and the NeoGeo CD. Both play the exact same games and have the same sprite hardware, the CD version was created to be cheaper. Carts went for $250+ while the same game was sold on CD for $60 or so. The trade-off is that when using CDs you have to pre-load the data into RAM.
The NeoCD therefore had a whopping 7mb of RAM, but when you only have a single speed CD-ROM, it takes a long time read that much data, hence the infamous load times. And even then 7mb wasn't enough hence cuts had to be made to later games.
The Loads killed that system, later games had to cut animation just to make the loads happen the same day. It is rumored that the 3rd Level Hell in Dante's Epic Poem that people were forced to play KOF 99 via Neo Geo CD.
Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 01/29/2014, 09:11 PMWhat is the sprite limit on Sega Cd? Also again isn't it significantly easier to load more frames of animation on a cd vs a cart? I know that the frames have to load off the cd but there has to be a benefit of having a massive storage space to fit highly detailed sprite information?
You can put a lot of stuff on the CD, sure, but you're very limited by how much you can use at any one time. The Sega CD has more RAM than the TG16 Super CD (like triple, I think?), but it also has some strict limitations on how much stuff can go between the system and CD drive because of limited bandwidth on the bus connecting the system and CD drive. There the TG16 has an advantage -- that back port isn't as limited I think. At least, I think that's right...
Either way though you need to deal with the amount of RAM you have available, so you can't just load anything that's on the CD. Street Fighter II on HuCard is one example of that (Arcade Card might have been able to do it, but not Super!). On the Sega CD, for instance, the Pier Solar developers said that if they were going to do a CD-based version of the game they'd have to cut down on the amount of animation in the game because of either bus or RAM limits that carts don't have.
Quote from: PukeSter on 01/28/2014, 06:00 AMAnd the final boss will never be forgotten...
I don't remember it, so I guess it can be forgotten. :^P~
So going back to forgotten worlds on the Sega CD from the PCE, it wouldn't be as good based upon what? Colors? What is the Sprite limit for the Sega CD, is it the Same as the Sega Genesis? Here are the Specs I could find, strange that the Sprite limit wouldn't be up'd in any way. The system appears to be a scaling power house however.
Sega CD 1992-1995
CPU: 7.67 MHz 68000
Sub-CPU: 12.5 MHz 68000
CPU Co-Processors: 3.58 MHz Z80 (Audio) 3
Texas Instruments 76489 (PSG Audio):
4 Channels 4
Yamaha 2612 FM Audio:5
6 Channels:6
10 Audio Channels total
VDP7
Hardware Shadow and Lighting 8
Sub-CPU Co-Processors: Ricoh RF5C68A Compatible:
8 Channel 12.5 MHz PCM Sound 9
Digital to Analog Converter10
Graphics Co-Processor:
Scaling and Rotation:
sprites and backgrounds11
Resolutions: 256x224, 320x224, 320x448 12
CPU RAM: 64 KB
Video RAM: 64 KB
Sub-CPU RAM: 768 KB13
PCM RAM: 64 KB
CD Cache: 16 KB
Backup RAM: 8 KB
Boot ROM: 128 KB 14
Colors On Screen: 61 (30-75 in game, average 50) 15 16
Color Palette: 512
Sprite Max & Size: 80 sprites 17at:
8x8, 8x16, 8x24, 8x32
16x8, 16x16, 16x24, 16x32
24x8, 24x16, 24x24, 24x32
32x8, 32x16, 32x24, 32x32 18
Sprites per Scanline: 20 at 320x224, 16 at 256x224 19
Background Planes: 2 layers with 16 colors per 8x8 pixel tile20
VDP handles scrolling as single planes, independently scrolling 8 line rows, and independently scrolling lines.21
Each 8 line row can can be displayed over or under others. 22
please dear god,
do not let start that EvilEvoIX dude any tech talk inhere again.
thanx and so much apreesh'd.
Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 01/30/2014, 04:23 AMSo going back to forgotten worlds on the Sega CD from the PCE, it wouldn't be as good based upon what? Colors? What is the Sprite limit for the Sega CD, is it the Same as the Sega Genesis? Here are the Specs I could find, strange that the Sprite limit wouldn't be up'd in any way. The system appears to be a scaling power house however.
Any shortcomings in the PCE version aren't a result of it being on PCE. Every game ever made is not as good as it can be for the hardware. Saying "the PCE Forgotten Worlds would be the same on Sega-CD but would have 2 players" is misunderstanding so many things.
Again: A port of Forgotten Worlds for either PCE or Sega-CD could be very detailed and support 2 player gameplay. You could also have lots of parallax in a PCE version. But the PCE port we got uses sprites which are larger than they need to be and were cobbled together inefficiently, so sprite bandwidth is wasted. If you are going to put an overly ambitious, yet inefficient port on Genesis/Sega-CD, then it will still not be as good as it should be for the hardware.
It's still a given that color/detail can't come close to a potential PCE version, but you could make a Genesis version which potentially keeps more sprites from the arcade version.
I don't see how hardware scaling would help Forgotten Worlds.
Why are you spamming a wall of specs you don't understand?
Any shortcomings the pce port had is more than made up for by the awesome soundtrack. I don't even like playing the arcade version now, I miss the CD quality tunes.
admittedly, my only experience with rondo has been a burned CDR on an emu and i bought it off the wii VC.
I finally bought the real disc and i cant wait to properly dig into it.
i hate this thread for costing me monies. :)
Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 01/30/2014, 04:23 AMSo going back to forgotten worlds on the Sega CD from the PCE, it wouldn't be as good based upon what? Colors? What is the Sprite limit for the Sega CD, is it the Same as the Sega Genesis? Here are the Specs I could find, strange that the Sprite limit wouldn't be up'd in any way. The system appears to be a scaling power house however.
A ground up port to the Genesis? Yeah sure and would have 2player support. Porting it as is, no. You'd get less color and more flicker if you added 2nd player. The PCE port is unoptimized in sprite cell arrangement. SegaCD brings nothing to the table for this, except sample playback and red book audio. I already stated before, any added graphic benefit of the SegaCD asic - uses single 15 color pseudo bitmaps. Do you really want ALL sprites to share the same 15 colors and be choppy at hell? No, you don't. That aspect isn't going to help you.
To answer your question:
The Sprite pixel scanline limit is the same on the SegaCD as the Genesis. Unless you use the bitmap mode (scaling/rotation/blitting), but the frame drops a ~lot~ and the colors are limited to 15 for a single 'plane'.
Quote from: TurboXray on 01/30/2014, 03:54 PMQuote from: EvilEvoIX on 01/30/2014, 04:23 AMSo going back to forgotten worlds on the Sega CD from the PCE, it wouldn't be as good based upon what? Colors? What is the Sprite limit for the Sega CD, is it the Same as the Sega Genesis? Here are the Specs I could find, strange that the Sprite limit wouldn't be up'd in any way. The system appears to be a scaling power house however.
A ground up port to the Genesis? Yeah sure and would have 2player support. Porting it as is, no. You'd get less color and more flicker if you added 2nd player. The PCE port is unoptimized in sprite cell arrangement. SegaCD brings nothing to the table for this, except sample playback and red book audio. I already stated before, any added graphic benefit of the SegaCD asic - uses single 15 color pseudo bitmaps. Do you really want ALL sprites to share the same 15 colors and be choppy at hell? No, you don't. That aspect isn't going to help you.
To answer your question:
The Sprite pixel scanline limit is the same on the SegaCD as the Genesis. Unless you use the bitmap mode (scaling/rotation/blitting), but the frame drops a ~lot~ and the colors are limited to 15 for a single 'plane'.
Thank you, that;s all I was asking. Too much E-dick waving for my taste otherwise.
Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 01/30/2014, 09:42 PMThank you, that;s all I was asking. Too much E-dick waving for my taste otherwise.
Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/22/2013, 07:37 PMI've played Street Fighter 2, on the PCE. I don't think it's as good as the md or snes. How can you even argue it runs at the same speed? I have all three games the md certain runs the most fluid and the least amount if slow down. What game on the PCE comes close to the later games on the MD? Everyone and their mother screwms Dracula x. Great game but not the end all be all. The music is for sure. Not one example given that moves as smooth as Vector man or earthworm Jim or Alien Soldier. I just get anger from people.
Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/22/2013, 06:00 PMThis is my point exactly, I just don't see the PCE doing games like Vector Man or Aladdin, not as smooth it just can't. Colors hell yeah but not the smooth animation and speed of Vector man I just ran through that game again I don't see it.
Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/22/2013, 05:58 PMObviously you are comparing a CD 788 Megs to a 15-20 meg cart. We all know it can load more frames of animation with a larger CD however in terms of say Earthworm Jim or vector man, you really see the TG16 pulling that off? I doubt it I really do. I have spent hours running through my collection on my puter and the closest thing I can see is Magical Chase in terms of Cart. I am not even that impressed with SSFII, slow and small sprites for some reason. The shooters really floor me however. The PCE lacked support I'll give it that but it did what it did well, massive color, it owned the 16Bit genre unless you include the Neo Geo which most of us do not. That said I like Dracula X but it's not runnign crazy animation or a lot of stuff going on like again Vector man or Alien Soldier. Gunstar Heroes being another. The Mega Drive coudla really had a color increase though Bloodlines and Dynamite Headdy had a bunch a tricks to get past 64 limit.
Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/24/2013, 12:52 AMThe neo geo could indeed do Mario kart. It's a sprite monster it would just "brute force" the floor as it were.
Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/23/2013, 04:36 PMThis is why I've owned my neo 4 10 years now and have had 2 cabs. The Neo rules.
Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/22/2013, 11:22 PMQuote from: SignOfZeta on 03/22/2013, 11:18 PMHowever, many of us are experiencing significant slowdown on our machine thanks to this gif of yours. Terry is cool as hell, but you're being a prick by bogging down other people's PCEFX experience. We would appreciate it if you'd replace it with a less CPU-intensive graphic.
Ok I see your point now. Ill post up a PCE animation it's far less grafical intensive ;).
QuoteTricks are a term used when you make a system do what it wasn't designed to do. The Neo Geo NEVER had anything 3D imagined for it. It had 2D muscle that still flexes impressively to this day. The M6800 it has now is more than powerful enough to do 3D if asked properly and again can scale and animate what it needs to to make a "mode 7ish style" similar to what the Mega Drive can do.
People forget the neo can do a maximum of 380 sprites on screen they can range in size from 1×2 to:16×512. They are scalable and can be animated to do whatever is needed in real time.
Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/28/2013, 10:28 PMMode 7 is a SNES hardware trick that has scaling and rotation. This is also facilitated by the most part on the SNES by additional helper chips that in effect are additional hardware. The snes needs this due to a weak 16-processor that couldn't possible run it. The MEGADRIVE cannot do mode 7 however the M6800 can more than do it via hardware computation. The neo geo more so as it has the same processor and its almost twice as fast. It would need to do it with large animated sprites however or tricks beyond our understanding like that 3D cube I posted. It's all up to the programmer.
QuoteNow I have to compare cards to Carts vs CD's? Why do the rules keep changing? I thought the CD didn't count as an add on as it didn't add any horse power? Preferences on sound chips? Hey listen that is a 100% valid argument but comparing the sound quality from say a VHS Vs a Blue Ray you MAY prefer the VHS but one is technically better. Now the MD and the PCE are not that far apart as the previous example but one is clearly better, certainly clearer.
Bonk is obviously a great game, I have all three on Chip, but when I sit down to play these things and the game is beat my first time through on all of them, there is something amiss. Grafx wise just a bunch of still sprites with almost zero animation. The fire in game is just rapid color changes. Now in terms of Art Design it is indeed a work of art but serious lacks anything other than color to make it part of the next generation of console gaming. There is nothing amazing going on in that game except for the style.
The genesis FM is indeed glorious. What it lacked was competent hands. Listen to Dynamite Headdy, listen to Earthworm Jim, Listen to Streets of Rage. This is just not an argument. You made sound using tech and know how from the 2000's, how about we keep this argument in the late 80's early 90's OK? BTW you should see what is being done with the MD sound chip these days, but that's not fair right? And I hope that sound clip you left me was a Joke because it sure sounded like it.
Not doing this, sorry.
Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 05/30/2013, 04:36 PMQuote from: TurboXray on 05/30/2013, 01:09 PMQuote from: EvilEvoIX on 05/30/2013, 06:14 AMThis argument has gone back and forth for years. Look at the games and what the system is capable of. Later MD games would be really hard to visualize on the PCE. The PCE is really good at color and I think that is the systems strong suit. The md has poor color but can be displayed cleverly. Systems and chip sets have strengths and weaknesses. In my experience the PCE does shooters really well. The md certainly does animation better, and the snes did RPGs. It was an amazing time as all systems were so different and had so much personality. I don't think that the PCE suffered so much from it's "bit-ness" however it really does straddle the line between 8bit and 16bit. When push comes to shove you won't see earthworm Jim on the PCE or Ranger x, at least not without noticeable sacrifices.
Says the man who's lacks any real understanding or even experience coding for these systems. I *know* that you are here just to troll. Go back to Sega16, please.
The PCE hucard setup lacks system ram. 8k is enough to handle all variables, but it's no where near enough to decompress and keep graphics in a buffer for fast access (like the Genesis and SNES). Thus piss poor compression schemes used and minimal animation. I've seen quite a few hucards store graphics in 8 color tile format (sprites and bg tiles) to save on space. The PCE was originally setup for 32k (you can see the evidence as the first 8k bank is mirror on the next three banks. The supergrafx actually fills those slots), and it that would have helped tremendously in using schemes like LZ compression BITD (like Genesis and SNES did).
The PCE doesn't lack speed (game logic speed is faster than the snes and about even with the Genesis). The PCE doesn't lack vram bandwidth; it can write to vram during all of active display (if vblank isn't enough). It does have block transfer instructions which are essentially dma 'instructions' (while not as fast the snes DMA or Genesis DMA, it's a hell of a lot faster than any manual copy method and the previous 8bit game platforms lacked this). The PCE doesn't lack VRAM; it has the same as the Genesis and SNES. Matter of fact, the PCE vram layout is like the Genesis in that it's pretty flexible as where to put stuff (tiles/sprites/SAT); unlike the snes that's more rigid in it's layout. The PCE's sprite scanline limit is also inline with the other two systems. The sprites can be any of the different sizes on screen like the Genenis and unlike the snes that's limited to only 2 sprite sizes per screen.
The PCE being the first system out, of the next generation, does lack a few things compared to system that came out *afterwards*. And the second BG layer is pretty much the only thing to stand out. If you want to criticize the PCE, do it for that. Not all this other bullshit.
Anyway, I thought this was supposed to be processor vs processor, and not game console vs game console. Let's get back on track.
QuoteNot quite extreme. The more 16-bit operations you do, the more the 68k will begin to win out. Unless you make frequent, proper use of the zero page.
So it really just depends what kind of game you're making. What's really funny though, is you would most often be using 16 bit numbers for RPGs (for stats, EXP, gear, combat stuff), so you won't even notice that there's a speed difference. Smile
Even if you gave the 68k the full benefit of doubt and said all 16bit operations are faster, how many 16bit operations do you have to execute per 1/60 frame in relation to everything else? I would think an RPG would be the lowest; it'd not like you're going to be hitting those on 1/60th frame basis (at least not for turn base RPGs).
QuoteSome other exemples, are super aleste, ans rendering ranger R2
The '816, even with its hindering 8bit data bus, would smoke both the 6280 and the 68k at the same clock speed. Even with the 8bit data bus, the '816 is faster at both 16bit and 32bit math cycle wise. But if the '816 had a model with a full 16bit data bus, it would just be stupidly crazy fast.
QuoteYes i think so, this is the strong department of this machine, colors and sprites moving, but his sprites limit is very low for a certain kind of games, like beats them all.
I understand the 16 wide sprite cell setup on the pce, but it wouldn't have been that hard for have a 'half flag' in the SAT that would treat all sprites as 16x8 instead of 16x16. That goes a long way IMO. But that said, MD has a much better sprite size setup (smaller is better in this case) for beatem ups. But if you designed a beatem up from the ground up, you can get something better than Crest of the Wolf/Riot Zone. Check this out:
/SOR_exm_1.png
All the sprites have been resized to 32 width segments (the top half are offset from the legs). Right there, that's seven 32 wide sprites per scanline. It's not busting the scanline limit. Of course, you wouldn't be fighting all 7 at once; take a note from the SOR2 and SOR3 games - move sprites to the top and bottom and have them wait (sometimes the game even moves them off screen). Also have them fall back really far (almost all the way off screen), etc. SOR2 and more so with SOR3, plays really dirty with the AI to keep the sprite scanline limit down.
FIRST OF ALL!!!! Thank you for calling me a man. Second of all, the thread is titled Md 68k and hu6280 comparison
So we are just comparing single chip sets here, not the whole multichip architecture. Toe to toe between these two the MD68K is more powerful and can handle more operations so end of thread right? Well wrong of course that would be silly, almost as silly as what you wrote above so allow me to retort.
I've played these systems to death. Who knows more about what an Indy car or a NASCAR can do, the engineer or the driver? Just because I didn't sit there with my dick in my hand and a computer keyboard in the other doesn't mean I don't know what these systems can do. I have all three of them since day one, act one, scene one. I have all the games now as well and years of experience. One thing that is not acceptable is theoretical stuffs that haven't been done. Technically the new Dodge Viper is geared to 300 MPH in top gear, so it's the fastest car in the world right?
About even with the Genesis in game logic, that's an interesting way to put it, some folks would call it SLOWER. The SNES is a pile of shit in processing power but we all know it is designed with multi chip architecture to pull it's weight, just like the PCE. Obviously if it was only the HU6280 we'd be calling it the NES 2.
It's not just the 2nd back ground layer. The sound took a huge hit. The CD add-on covered this beautify because no one can argue with CD quality sound but the actual sound FX are quite stratchy. Now I didn't say they were not appealing, but man the sound is iffy at times.
Lets look at Bonks Revenge and Sonic 2, both came out around the same time, both were major mascots. I think the MD could handle that game so long as the developer did something with the colors. You mean to tell me you can get Sonic 2 on the PCE? Seriously? This is my point, hell even the NES had a decent port of Bonk with it's 24 colors or so.
My point is missed every time with the fanboi rose colored glasses however. We all love the PCE, hell I have three versions of the systems and basically all the games. It get's hours of my attention. But in comparison of the hardware, specifically the specific chipsets in this particular thread, we all know which system is more powerful.
That's all my fingers hurt.
Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 03/24/2013, 09:03 AMWell how the fuck am I supposed to argue with this?
:lol:
Quote from: guest on 01/30/2014, 10:58 PMI have no life and nothing to do other than what is on this site.
Exactly, now excuse me while I play my 16 Bit Sega Genesis.
;)
P.S. I still like you guys better then the folks over on www.neo-geo.com (http://www.neo-geo.com) They hold Grudges for years.
EvilEvoIX:
Don't be butt hurt. If you have the knowledge to hack-it in these tech discussions, then that's fine. If not, then just be a gamer like everyone else - and enjoy your games. We're all gamers in the end.
No need to make up stuff or continue to argue with facts that you have no understanding of. If you want to be proud of the Genesis and its library, then there's nothing wrong with that. There are a lot of AAA titles on the system and show off what it can do. But most of us that talk tech, specs, etc - are devs for systems. It's in our nature. And when someone spout misconceptions or just plain non-truths (while plugging thier ears), it gets old and annoying. Real fast.
Quote from: TurboXray on 01/31/2014, 12:12 AMEvilEvoIX:
Don't be butt hurt. If you have the knowledge to hack-it in these tech discussions, then that's fine. If not, then just be a gamer like everyone else - and enjoy your games. We're all gamers in the end.
No need to make up stuff or continue to argue with facts that you have no understanding of. If you want to be proud of the Genesis and its library, then there's nothing wrong with that. There are a lot of AAA titles on the system and show off what it can do. But most of us that talk tech, specs, etc - are devs for systems. It's in our nature. And when someone spout misconceptions or just plain non-truths (while plugging thier ears), it gets old and annoying. Real fast.
Hack it? I'm sorry is this some sort of battle I walked into or a discussion? I've been here before, anything bad said is poor development or bad programming, anything good and it's hardware superiority, I am well aware of how it works on this site or any other site dedicated to classic 16-Bit era machines. If I push it further some nut takes the day off work and counts every frame of animation from a PCE CD Game and posts it compared to a 2KB ROM from 1978 and declares victory, enough I just don't give enough of a shit at this point it's madness. I am not dumb enough to argue on this site any more, not even for fun which carried me for a good six months before people caught on. (48 Bit Bios Revision)
Back on topic.....
I simply asked what the sprite limit was on a Sega CD and how an apples to apples translation of Forgotten Worlds would work on Sega CD from a PCE CD comparison. The main point of contention was single player vs multi on the Genesis. Then what about the Sega CD, someone's E-Dick got stepped on and then who gives a fuck but oh no then I get what amounts to the new testament of "Butt Hurt" posted.. Someone mercifully posted the answer, that's it. , People wana flop their E-Dick's in other members mouth, have at it, leave me out of it. Some seem to like it, me I don't buy that shit nor am I impressed with any E-superiority you care to boast about.
Make stuff up? I asked a fucking question. I swear people like to argue at the drop of a hat. I have all major late 80's-early 90's 16 Bit Era systems and I've played them for about 25 years now. I have a broad understanding of what they can and can not do in terms of colors or sprites or slowdown or music. Can I program a game? Can I understand code? Hell no and never pretended to do so. All I asked was what the Sega CD added in terms of sprites and what benefits the system would add to a CD title of Forgotten Worlds. I see that the Sega CD is indeed still limited to 80 Sprites so I see that it's best traits are scaling and obviously less slowdown in certain style games not to mention KILLER FMV and music :o
This site I swear people just wana argue over nothing. God forbid someone mentions EWJ people I am warning you.
derailed-train.jpg
Quote from: Tatsujin on 01/31/2014, 01:14 AMderailed-train.jpg
Yes, exactly, that'll teach me to ask a question specifically relating to a thread topic, how dare I. Lesson learned.
This Threads Topic: Rondo of Blood Thread
Not This Threads Topic: Basically Rondo of Blood Thread but much more of how many sprites can the Mega-CD handle and other I have no clue but anyway E-dick waving Thread
:idea:
Quote from: Tatsujin on 01/31/2014, 01:51 AMThis Threads Topic: Rondo of Blood Thread
Not This Threads Topic: Basically Rondo of Blood Thread but much more of how many sprites can the Mega-CD handle and other I have no clue but anyway E-dick waving Thread
:idea:
Fair enough, I replied to an OT Tangent and got my answer. Rondo is an outstanding effort and I am thoroughly impressed, that's all I have to say on that matter.
Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 01/31/2014, 01:55 AMRondo is an outstanding effort and I am thoroughly impressed, that's all I have to say on that matter.
have taken notice of it.
After reading the last couple posts on page 11, then Tats train pic to start page 12 was perfectly executed and made me ROLF.
Quote from: galam on 01/31/2014, 07:37 AMAfter reading the last couple posts on page 11, then Tats train pic to start page 12 was perfectly executed and made me ROLF.
Some people like the taste I guess, as I stated before.
If you're not a huge fan of the Turbo/PC-E then why are you here? People defend something they like and appreciate. We have to defend a niche system from the uninitiated. Quite a few of us here have been with the system from the very beginning and have already dealt with the "my system is better than your system" for decades. Also, quite a few of us had all 3 major systems back then, but still preferred the TG-16/PC-E. None of us are over at the other forums trying to disprove how they are inferior to the PC-E. Haha...we do that here.
Quote from: geise on 01/31/2014, 08:57 AMIf you're not a huge fan of the Turbo/PC-E then why are you here? People defend something they like and appreciate. We have to defend a niche system from the uninitiated. Quite a few of us here have been with the system from the very beginning and have already dealt with the "my system is better than your system" for decades. Also, quite a few of us had all 3 major systems back then, but still preferred the TG-16/PC-E. None of us are over at the other forums trying to disprove how they are inferior to the PC-E. Haha...we do that here.
I love the system, this is why it's so confusing. I never had a Turbo Growing up but strangely I had a Turbo Express in the early 90's until it was stolen. Honestly it just proves my point of people arguing at the drop of a hat and pulling out their E-Dick to argue. I never even began the dreaded uphill battle of which system is better, I asked a direct question to a post earlier in this thread and some guys flew off the handle. It didn't even follow the proper protocol of a conversation, it's like saying "Hello" and then someone belts you in the face. It amazes me. I love all things in the 8-16-32 bit era with the 16 Bit era being my favorite to this day.
Go back and PLEASE read what I posted, I asked a question and someone pulled out his E-Dick, what sickens me is people get off on this, not me. Someone eventually posted an answer an that is that. Like I've stated many times I refuse to argue on this site, people get nuts, not as bad as www.neo-geo.com (http://www.neo-geo.com) but bad enough. On this site some people have to just pull it out and smack it around, I'm not buying. You guys are letting that XAK fellow literally pull out his dick and you guys are up in arms, it's embarrassing. This site has given me many free games too and sold me a Duo R with a stack of games on the cheap. I got me Ave 6 pads, multitaps, all below the Fleabay so by far the most generous site I've dealt with, honest too. Other then that you are all nuts. The PCE is not inferior, it's just different. I do prefer the MD but that's just because it is a common as a blade a grass in the states, cheap to collect for, and has a glut of titles that are easy to come by cheaply. I then like the PCE next followed by the SNES. My main gripe with the PCE is that games are quite expensive and costs a lot to collect for. God forbid you go U.S. and all those system cards you'll spend a ton.
there-be-a-shit-storm-a-brewin.jpg
No E-Dick waving from me. It was really just a simple question personally for my understanding. I don't mind that you like the MD more. I love the Genesis, but I love the Turbo a lot more. I just don't go into sega forums and start talking about how the pc-e is superior. I would never do that because (just like you) I know NOTHING about hardware specks.
Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 01/31/2014, 09:08 AMGo back and PLEASE read what I posted, I asked a question and someone pulled out his E-Dick, what sickens me is people get off on this, not me. Someone eventually posted an answer an that is that.
Why don't YOU re-read what was posted? There was no 'eventually', as the first response answered your question:
Quote from: TurboXray on 01/29/2014, 07:39 PMQuote from: EvilEvoIX on 01/29/2014, 05:34 PMThis Seems Confusing, isn't the Sega CD nearly double the strength of the Sega Genesis in terms of processing power? Why would it be only single player?
Yes and no. The extra processor isn't going to give you more hardware sprites on screen (or more importantly, sprite pixel per scanline limit). There would be quite a bit of flicker or blank, if you ported the SuperCD version "as is" to the SegaCD but add in the extra player.
But that wasn't good enough for you, so you argued:
Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 01/30/2014, 04:23 AMWhat is the Sprite limit for the Sega CD, is it the Same as the Sega Genesis? Here are the Specs I could find, strange that the Sprite limit wouldn't be up'd in any way.
Try paying attention next time.
QuoteIn all honesty though, Awack, any other PCE sprite rips? The rips are really well done. Amount of frames does't bother me, I just want to see the beautiful sprite work.
Sorry, I lost most of them when my comp crashed.
By the way, if you want to know what I think the best is when it comes to cartridge games as far as hand drawn fx go, its Demons Crest huge number of frames, great colors etc.. Not in the same league as Rondo, but still beautiful.
Demons Crest
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/Untitledjjh_zps8f8127af.png) (http://s567.photobucket.com/user/bethcongo/media/bethcongo006/Untitledjjh_zps8f8127af.png.html)
One of the other best is GNG for the super grafx and super GNG for the snes.
GNG supergrafx
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/DaimakaimuraJSGX-100527_1941_1v_zps0ab06907.png) (http://s567.photobucket.com/user/bethcongo/media/bethcongo006/DaimakaimuraJSGX-100527_1941_1v_zps0ab06907.png.html)
here is some color cycling comparison, the pic below is from Dracxx, it cycles through 15 unique colors, in comparison, rondo cycles through 125 colors, by the way, I don't count those as frames :) other things in rondo I don't count is the begening of each stage has a title different for richter and Maria, they melt away, also when you defeat a boss, his life bar melts, two unique frames for that...I don't count a lot of animation that's in rondo, the game is just loaded with crap, by the way, the rondo version of this part of the game is somewhere in this thread.
I always love these when you post them. :D
there needs to be a sprite art only thread!!!
Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 01/31/2014, 12:27 AMQuote from: TurboXray on 01/31/2014, 12:12 AMEvilEvoIX:
Don't be butt hurt. If you have the knowledge to hack-it in these tech discussions, then that's fine. If not, then just be a gamer like everyone else - and enjoy your games. We're all gamers in the end.
No need to make up stuff or continue to argue with facts that you have no understanding of. If you want to be proud of the Genesis and its library, then there's nothing wrong with that. There are a lot of AAA titles on the system and show off what it can do. But most of us that talk tech, specs, etc - are devs for systems. It's in our nature. And when someone spout misconceptions or just plain non-truths (while plugging thier ears), it gets old and annoying. Real fast.
Hack it? I'm sorry is this some sort of battle I walked into or a discussion? I've been here before, anything bad said is poor development or bad programming, anything good and it's hardware superiority, I am well aware of how it works on this site or any other site dedicated to classic 16-Bit era machines. If I push it further some nut takes the day off work and counts every frame of animation from a PCE CD Game and posts it compared to a 2KB ROM from 1978 and declares victory, enough I just don't give enough of a shit at this point it's madness. I am not dumb enough to argue on this site any more, not even for fun which carried me for a good six months before people caught on. (48 Bit Bios Revision)
Back on topic.....
I simply asked what the sprite limit was on a Sega CD and how an apples to apples translation of Forgotten Worlds would work on Sega CD from a PCE CD comparison. The main point of contention was single player vs multi on the Genesis. Then what about the Sega CD, someone's E-Dick got stepped on and then who gives a fuck but oh no then I get what amounts to the new testament of "Butt Hurt" posted.. Someone mercifully posted the answer, that's it. , People wana flop their E-Dick's in other members mouth, have at it, leave me out of it. Some seem to like it, me I don't buy that shit nor am I impressed with any E-superiority you care to boast about.
Make stuff up? I asked a fucking question. I swear people like to argue at the drop of a hat. I have all major late 80's-early 90's 16 Bit Era systems and I've played them for about 25 years now. I have a broad understanding of what they can and can not do in terms of colors or sprites or slowdown or music. Can I program a game? Can I understand code? Hell no and never pretended to do so. All I asked was what the Sega CD added in terms of sprites and what benefits the system would add to a CD title of Forgotten Worlds. I see that the Sega CD is indeed still limited to 80 Sprites so I see that it's best traits are scaling and obviously less slowdown in certain style games not to mention KILLER FMV and music :o
This site I swear people just wana argue over nothing. God forbid someone mentions EWJ people I am warning you.
See, now you're getting butt hurt. Don't be butt hurt. Simple as that.
You're not so innocent. You've played many of this type of game in the past. Lots on Sega-16, a few times here.
Jesus! Will you guys stop talking about E-dicks!? Its creeping me out! :P
People, stop fighting over Forgotten Worlds on Sega CD, or I will lock the thread.
oops, forgot to post the sheets,
here is some color cycling comparison, the pic below is from Dracxx, it cycles through 15 unique colors, in comparison, rondo cycles through 125 colors, by the way, I don't count those as frames :) other things in rondo I don't count is the begening of each stage has a title different for richter and Maria, they have a cool warping or melting effect, also when you defeat a boss, his life bar melts, two unique frames for that...I don't count a lot of animation that's in rondo, the game is just loaded with crap, I also added the rondo death color cycling.
Just to point out, the GNG sprite sheet of animation/fx is only about 65 percent done...rondo is about 90 percent done, the enemy flame fx has three other palettes, one green and two purples there are actually subtle differences between them, so that right there is 90 more frames, mostly palettes swaps though, Demons Crest is about 100 percent complete.
Dracula xx 15 unique colors
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/AkumajouDraculaXXJ004zx_zpsfe9ecea7.png) (http://s567.photobucket.com/user/bethcongo/media/bethcongo006/AkumajouDraculaXXJ004zx_zpsfe9ecea7.png.html)
rondo about 125 unique colors...just Death I got lazy and didn't cut the other frames out.
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/zzz_zps92ae2eac.png) (http://s567.photobucket.com/user/bethcongo/media/bethcongo006/zzz_zps92ae2eac.png.html)
Haha I totally forgot about Maria's turtle shell animations.
Quote from: TurboXray on 01/31/2014, 03:13 PMI just need to swing my E-Dick around a few more times guy if that's OK, I mean all you did was ask a question but I felt like arguing anyway, is that cool?
Dude go for it, whatever helps you get the poison out, just try not to get any on me and point it away when you are spraying. Thanks again for the ton of free games and discounted hardware, this truly is a great site and I wish to stay a long time.
Quote from: awack on 01/31/2014, 04:39 PMoops, forgot to post the sheets,
here is some color cycling comparison, the pic below is from Dracxx, it cycles through 15 unique colors, in comparison, rondo cycles through 125 colors, by the way, I don't count those as frames :) other things in rondo I don't count is the begening of each stage has a title different for richter and Maria, they have a cool warping or melting effect, also when you defeat a boss, his life bar melts, two unique frames for that...I don't count a lot of animation that's in rondo, the game is just loaded with crap, I also added the rondo death color cycling.
Just to point out, the GNG sprite sheet of animation/fx is only about 65 percent done...rondo is about 90 percent done, the enemy flame fx has three other palettes, one green and two purples there are actually subtle differences between them, so that right there is 90 more frames, mostly palettes swaps though, Demons Crest is about 100 percent complete.
Dracula xx 15 unique colors
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/AkumajouDraculaXXJ004zx_zpsfe9ecea7.png) (http://s567.photobucket.com/user/bethcongo/media/bethcongo006/AkumajouDraculaXXJ004zx_zpsfe9ecea7.png.html)
rondo about 125 unique colors
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss114/bethcongo/bethcongo006/zzz_zps92ae2eac.png) (http://s567.photobucket.com/user/bethcongo/media/bethcongo006/zzz_zps92ae2eac.png.html)
Now this is amazing work, how long does it take to tally this?
Also our very own Spida1 did a 100% complete walk through of this game back in 1994, I plan to use this for my play-through. Amazing work by this guy and the dedication is obvious. 20 year anniversary too, outstanding.
Spida1a RETRO: "The Dracula X-cellent Master" ('94 home-video project walk-through) (https://youtu.be/VcXPtYa2NZQ#)
Why use a walkthrough? Finding everything on your own is a huge part of the fun factor for the game. Well, to me anyways.
Quote from: geise on 01/31/2014, 06:25 PMWhy use a walkthrough? Finding everything on your own is a huge part of the fun factor for the game. Well, to me anyways.
Absolutely.
EvilEvoX, half the fun is finding the secrets. Seriously buddy, your going to ruin your experience.
Quote from: guest on 01/31/2014, 06:29 PMQuote from: geise on 01/31/2014, 06:25 PMWhy use a walkthrough? Finding everything on your own is a huge part of the fun factor for the game. Well, to me anyways.
Absolutely.
EvilEvoX, half the fun is finding the secrets. Seriously buddy, your going to ruin your experience.
Well I guess you are right, but I am also a completionist. I hate to miss part of the experience. The issue issue is time. I'm playing through so many games now plus work it's tough to keep it up. But you are probably right I'll just hammer this one out.
Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 01/31/2014, 06:15 PM, I plan to use this for my play-through.
lol, are you serious? you need video help for the play-through of dracula x?
:edith:
sory, was already discussed :oops:
Quote from: Tatsujin on 01/31/2014, 08:52 PMQuote from: EvilEvoIX on 01/31/2014, 06:15 PM, I plan to use this for my play-through.
lol, are you serious? you need video help for the play-through of dracula x?
:edith:
sory, was already discussed :oops:
I always like 100% completion but on second thought I'll play through a couple of times on my own.
Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 01/31/2014, 11:04 PMQuote from: Tatsujin on 01/31/2014, 08:52 PMQuote from: EvilEvoIX on 01/31/2014, 06:15 PM, I plan to use this for my play-through.
lol, are you serious? you need video help for the play-through of dracula x?
:edith:
sory, was already discussed :oops:
I always like 100% completion but on second thought I'll play through a couple of times on my own.
yeah who wouldn't 100% complete drac x anyway? only a retard wouldn't. oh wait...
Quote from: Tatsujin on 02/01/2014, 01:20 AMQuote from: EvilEvoIX on 01/31/2014, 11:04 PMQuote from: Tatsujin on 01/31/2014, 08:52 PMQuote from: EvilEvoIX on 01/31/2014, 06:15 PM, I plan to use this for my play-through.
lol, are you serious? you need video help for the play-through of dracula x?
:edith:
sory, was already discussed :oops:
I always like 100% completion but on second thought I'll play through a couple of times on my own.
yeah who wouldn't 100% complete drac x anyway? only a retard wouldn't. oh wait...
Fry-I-see-what-you-did-there.jpg
Quote from: Nando on 01/31/2014, 12:57 PMthere needs to be a sprite art only thread!!!
I have a selection over at my site (most ripped by Awack). http://www.pcengine.co.uk/HTML_Sprite_Sheets/Sprite_Sheets_Index.htm (http://www.pcengine.co.uk/HTML_Sprite_Sheets/Sprite_Sheets_Index.htm)
I need to do some more.
Rondo of E-Dick
Quote from: EvilEvoIX on 02/01/2014, 02:13 AMQuote from: Tatsujin on 02/01/2014, 01:20 AMQuote from: EvilEvoIX on 01/31/2014, 11:04 PMQuote from: Tatsujin on 01/31/2014, 08:52 PMQuote from: EvilEvoIX on 01/31/2014, 06:15 PM, I plan to use this for my play-through.
lol, are you serious? you need video help for the play-through of dracula x?
:edith:
sory, was already discussed :oops:
I always like 100% completion but on second thought I'll play through a couple of times on my own.
yeah who wouldn't 100% complete drac x anyway? only a retard wouldn't. oh wait...
Fry-I-see-what-you-did-there.jpg
Lol - that response/post/pic actually made me laugh. I cringed when I saw Tats make that comment. But you took it in good sport. I give prop's for that.
Quote from: guest on 02/01/2014, 04:23 AMQuote from: Nando on 01/31/2014, 12:57 PMthere needs to be a sprite art only thread!!!
I have a selection over at my site (most ripped by Awack). http://www.pcengine.co.uk/HTML_Sprite_Sheets/Sprite_Sheets_Index.htm (http://www.pcengine.co.uk/HTML_Sprite_Sheets/Sprite_Sheets_Index.htm)
I need to do some more.
NICE!
Yeah definitely one of my favorite pc engine games and one of the best Castlevania games ever made. Back when this game first came out I had no idea of its existence being too young and clueless about importing, never mind not owning a turbo CD or duo to play it on anyway.
When I got back into collecting for the TG16 I bought a Duo from TZD and one of the first games I picked up was Rondo.
The ship level is also my favorite stage in the game. The fight against Death on top of the ship is epic.
The first time I played this, my friend showed it to me. It was a weird situation, we were in high school and hanging out afterwards in a local derelict mall. On the upper landing they had food court tables and electric outlets, so he had his duo with him, which he hooked up and ran the inputs to a Turbo Express via the TV tuner. Weird! But the game was awesome so I promptly imported at 1993 import prices ($90/$100 if I remember right). Glad I bought it when it was new, I think it would be hard to get nowadays. But in it's place are a boatload of other cool games I didn't buy that are equally hard to get now.
Quote from: johnnykonami on 02/06/2014, 11:03 PMGlad I bought it when it was new, I think it would be hard to get nowadays.
todays drac x price minus inflation = about half what you've paid back in 1993.
That was just the cost of importing games back then. I don't have any regrets about spending that much on a game as good as Dracula X, though I wouldn't pay that much nowadays. Got it brand new, too, something you'd be hard pressed to find now. I traded for a lot of my other games on newsgroups (rec.arts.video.game.trading or something like that, anyone else remember that?) and on the turbo mailing list, so the rare expensive import was just an occasional thing. Got plenty of good deals on other games since then too so I'm sure it all works out in the end. I am much older and wiser now and I can't even imagine spending $100 bucks on a single game!
That also reminds of when US Saturn games were stupid expensive too, I remember paying like $70+ for Legend of Oasis. Now I won't spring for anything over $5 on Steam.
Quote from: johnnykonami on 02/06/2014, 11:59 PMThat was just the cost of importing games back then. I don't have any regrets about spending that much on a game as good as Dracula X..
can't say anything against that. In fact I would even pay $2000+ for that game, if it's the only way to be played on original hardware. back then as well today.
just wanted to point out that it is neither hard to get nor expensive today :)
and seeing all the peeps bitching around how expenive it is, when in fact it absolutely isn't, but easily spending $100+ on every nextgen crap that comes not even near a drac x in 1000 years. for a game of that calibre it's like a steal.
Quote from: Tatsujin on 02/07/2014, 12:09 AMQuote from: johnnykonami on 02/06/2014, 11:59 PMThat was just the cost of importing games back then. I don't have any regrets about spending that much on a game as good as Dracula X..
can't say anything against that. In fact I would even pay $2000+ for that game, if it's the only way to be played on original hardware. back then as well today.
just wanted to point out that it is neither hard to get nor expensive today :)
and seeing all the peeps bitching around how expenive it is, when in fact it absolutely isn't, but easily spending $100+ on every nextgen crap that comes not even near a drac x in 1000 years. for a game of that calibre it's like a steal.
Oh I was just guessing. Having owned it for 20 years now I never had a reason to check prices on it. It's just a good game, and I don't consider it particularly rare either. Still, looks like people are asking ~$90 or so on ebay still, not that it's the cheapest or most trustworthy source out there.
yeah, but 90 to 120 is about what it's going these days, depending on the condition and completeness, which is more than fair imo.
it's not a rare game by any means, there where made plenty of 'em (in fact it was konami's most expensive video game production at that time). it's just a such good and quality loaded game that not many peeps are willing to part with it, which causes an artificial shortness.
i admittedly just paid $98 for a pretty excellent condition one.
well worth it. its just that good.
I paid 102 for mine back in Oct, which I thought was a great price compared to what others were going for in similar condition.
Sounds about fair toymachine. I got mine as an xmas gift in 93 from my family, but they got it from Die Hard Gamers Club for around $69.99 I believe.
Quote from: galam on 02/07/2014, 09:13 AMi admittedly just paid $98 for a pretty excellent condition one.
well worth it. its just that good.
I agree! Hopefully I'll find a copy soon...
Although I did make a heck of a nice bootleg using the English translation complete with case, tray insert and all that jazz. I can't get the lightscribe on this computer to work so I had to use a plain paper label. Thanks to Fragmare for making those in English!
Quote from: geise on 02/07/2014, 09:32 AMSounds about fair toymachine. I got mine as an xmas gift in 93 from my family, but they got it from Die Hard Gamers Club for around $69.99 I believe.
I ordered mine from Die Hard, IIRC. Die Hard and Japangames (though they were in Canada) were the two places my friends and I ordered from. I remember it being ~$80 shipped. That included shipping and the "COD" charge. That was in 1993, IIRC.
Quote from: TurboXray on 02/07/2014, 11:25 AMQuote from: geise on 02/07/2014, 09:32 AMSounds about fair toymachine. I got mine as an xmas gift in 93 from my family, but they got it from Die Hard Gamers Club for around $69.99 I believe.
I ordered mine from Die Hard, IIRC. Die Hard and Japangames (though they were in Canada) were the two places my friends and I ordered from. I remember it being ~$80 shipped. That included shipping and the "COD" charge. That was in 1993, IIRC.
I believe that it was called Japan Video Games who advertised in EGM and were located in a mall in the Toronto area. I bought most of my PCE imports from them, including Drac X for $150 shipped (maybe $100 U.S. at the time). I actually asked them for help getting through at least a couple PCE games, completely independant of placing an order. I was surprised how friendly and helpful they were and appreciated that they actually played through games like Kabukiden. They were the complete opposite of TZD. They only potentially negative experience (not sure if it was them or the other place I ordered from), was when I ordered Snatcher and Last Armageddon and they called back to say they were sold out of LA, but they could send another RPG instead. It was Cyber City OEDO 88. :/
Quote from: TurboXray on 02/07/2014, 11:25 AMQuote from: geise on 02/07/2014, 09:32 AMSounds about fair toymachine. I got mine as an xmas gift in 93 from my family, but they got it from Die Hard Gamers Club for around $69.99 I believe.
I ordered mine from Die Hard, IIRC. Die Hard and Japangames (though they were in Canada) were the two places my friends and I ordered from. I remember it being ~$80 shipped. That included shipping and the "COD" charge. That was in 1993, IIRC.
I can't remember if mine was from Die Hard or not, but it was something like them anyway. One of those import companies that ran ads in magazines. A couple years later I bought most of my stuff from NCSX, but Dracula X pre-dates their existence I think.
Quote from: guest on 02/07/2014, 12:25 PMQuote from: TurboXray on 02/07/2014, 11:25 AMQuote from: geise on 02/07/2014, 09:32 AMSounds about fair toymachine. I got mine as an xmas gift in 93 from my family, but they got it from Die Hard Gamers Club for around $69.99 I believe.
I ordered mine from Die Hard, IIRC. Die Hard and Japangames (though they were in Canada) were the two places my friends and I ordered from. I remember it being ~$80 shipped. That included shipping and the "COD" charge. That was in 1993, IIRC.
I believe that it was called Japan Video Games who advertised in EGM and were located in a mall in the Toronto area. I bought most of my PCE imports from them, including Drac X for $150 shipped (maybe $100 U.S. at the time). I actually asked them for help getting through at least a couple PCE games, completely independant of placing an order. I was surprised how friendly and helpful they were and appreciated that they actually played through games like Kabukiden. They were the complete opposite of TZD. They only potentially negative experience (not sure if it was them or the other place I ordered from), was when I ordered Snatcher and Last Armageddon and they called back to say they were sold out of LA, but they could send another RPG instead. It was Cyber City OEDO 88. :/
Yeah, that sounds right; Japan Video Games. The last thing I ordered from there, was Macross 2036. I could-not-find that game anywhere. I called for months, looking for it. Eventually, they had it. They told me it was discontinued and somewhat hard to find. They told me I shouldn't unseal/open it (yeah right). I paid $200USD for it. It got hold up in customs, and I had to pay $35 fee. I was pissed, but I wanted that game soooo bad. I wasn't disappointed when I eventually got it. This was in 1993 as well.
Looking back, I'm pretty sure they probably meant $200CDN and not $200USD. Oh well.
Quote from: TurboXray on 02/07/2014, 07:46 PMQuote from: guest on 02/07/2014, 12:25 PMQuote from: TurboXray on 02/07/2014, 11:25 AMQuote from: geise on 02/07/2014, 09:32 AMSounds about fair toymachine. I got mine as an xmas gift in 93 from my family, but they got it from Die Hard Gamers Club for around $69.99 I believe.
I ordered mine from Die Hard, IIRC. Die Hard and Japangames (though they were in Canada) were the two places my friends and I ordered from. I remember it being ~$80 shipped. That included shipping and the "COD" charge. That was in 1993, IIRC.
I believe that it was called Japan Video Games who advertised in EGM and were located in a mall in the Toronto area. I bought most of my PCE imports from them, including Drac X for $150 shipped (maybe $100 U.S. at the time). I actually asked them for help getting through at least a couple PCE games, completely independant of placing an order. I was surprised how friendly and helpful they were and appreciated that they actually played through games like Kabukiden. They were the complete opposite of TZD. They only potentially negative experience (not sure if it was them or the other place I ordered from), was when I ordered Snatcher and Last Armageddon and they called back to say they were sold out of LA, but they could send another RPG instead. It was Cyber City OEDO 88. :/
Yeah, that sounds right; Japan Video Games. The last thing I ordered from there, was Macross 2036. I could-not-find that game anywhere. I called for months, looking for it. Eventually, they had it. They told me it was discontinued and somewhat hard to find. They told me I shouldn't unseal/open it (yeah right). I paid $200USD for it. It got hold up in customs, and I had to pay $35 fee. I was pissed, but I wanted that game soooo bad. I wasn't disappointed when I eventually got it. This was in 1993 as well.
Looking back, I'm pretty sure they probably meant $200CDN and not $200USD. Oh well.
I have Macross 2036 too, but no idea what I paid for it. I think I might have traded something for it, or sent some cash (I remember people on the newsgroups were big on money orders so I probably paid that way) but nowhere near $200 bucks. Awesome game for Macross fans though. I also own Eien no Love Song which I love the battle animations and music of, even if's piss easy for a turn based strategy game. The other gem in my Macross game collection is the Sega AM2 Macross game for PS2, easily one of the best ever made. One I would really like to get is Scrambled Valkyrie. I have played it tons of times but I would like to get a copy for myself one day as it's awesome.
One thing that caught my attention is the level 4 boss Camilla in her human form being this "dangerous seduction". Now when you play with Richter that does make sense but if you're using Maria instead that's a little 12 year old girl that she's making out with LOL!
Not that i feel any moral indignation or anything but i just find it funny like that.
Quote from: Bekic on 03/27/2015, 07:05 PMOne thing that caught my attention is the level 4 boss Camilla in her human form being this "dangerous seduction". Now when you play with Richter that does make sense but if you're using Maria instead that's a little 12 year old girl that she's making out with LOL!
Not that i feel any moral indignation or anything but i just find it funny like that.
Hahahhhahhaha. That is funny :)
man I would love to own this game. im currently looking for one and hoping to get this awesome game before the price goes up even more. the sound track on the game is amazing
Quote from: cr8zykuban0 on 03/28/2015, 02:45 PMman I would love to own this game. im currently looking for one and hoping to get this awesome game before the price goes up even more. the sound track on the game is amazing
I followed tatsujin's advice years ago and never regretted it:
THIS IS THE ONE GAME THAT IS TOTALLY WORTH IT. You will never regret it.
So much damn love and attention to detail went into this game.
Just out of curiosity - because Daigirin had some "new to us" information regarding Ys 4 - I decided to see what they had for Dracula X.
If SamIAm is around, I'd appreciate some help with the translation....
Anything new in this list ?
- Stage Select
- Warning mini-game
- Hidden Maria (I think that's what it says)
- Richter's Hidden Item Class
- Richter's Hidden Operation
- Maria Dances
- Use Key ?
- Parent-child turtle
- Coach continues running
悪魔城ドラキュラX血の輸廻
7,800円/ヨナミ/SCD/'93.10.29/アクション
ドラキュラシリーズの10作目にあた
るPCエンジン版。ファミコンから始ま
り様々な機種へと展開したこのシリーズ
の集大成ともいえる内容だ。PCエンジ
ン版の特徴は、分岐点によリルートが分
かれるステージ構成。
(game ratings get messed up during scan)
ウル技
ステージセレクト ネームエントリー画
面で名前を「X‐ X!V"Q」と登録する。
次にデータフアイル画面でステージセ
レクトを選ぶ。すると、まだクリアし
ていないステージも選択できるように
なっている。これて裏ステージにも簡
単にいける。
警告用ミニゲーム 旧システムカードで
ゲームを起動させる。すると「あくま
ぢょおどらきゅらX」というタイトル
のミニゲームができる。このステージ
の終わりに、システムカードのバージ
ョン違いの警告画面が表示される。
マリアの隠し技 マリアでプレイしてい
るときに、上、下、右下、IIの順にす
ばやく押す。するとマリアの分身が出
現して、敵を攻撃してくれる。このコ
マンドはキャラが右向きのときのもの
で、左向きの場合はコマンドの左右が
逆になる。
リヒターの隠しアイテムクラッシュ リ
ヒターでアイテムを持つてなくて、八
― トが15個以上あるときにアイテム
を使うと「ムチのアイテムクラッシュ」
が使用可能になる。
リヒターの隠し操作法 リヒターで、ム
チ使用時に向いているほうへ方向キー
を2回入力すると、ムチのリーチが延
びる。また、直立時にIを押しっぱな
しで左右移動せずに方向転換が、IIを
押しっぱなして方向転換せずに左右移
動ができる。さらに、Iボタンをすば
やく2回入力すると、バク転ジャンプ
する。
マリアが踊る マリアでプレイし、方向
キーの上を押し続ける。すると、マリ
アが踊り出す。
カギを使って? カギを持っているとき
にアイテム攻撃をするとカギを振り回
し、アイテムクラッシュでは、ただ無
敵のポーズを取る。どちらの場合も八
― 卜を消費しない。
親子ガメが登場 マリアで八― トが53
個以上あるときに甲羅をかぶると、子
ガメが落ちてきて自キヤラの上にのる。
馬車が走り続ける ステージ0で、デス
が「この次はそうはいかんぞ」といっ
たあと、リヒターをしゃがんだままに
しておくと、馬車が走り続けて、ステ
ージクリアにならない。
-Dave
How can anyone read kanji? That's what I want to know.
悪魔城ドラキュラX血の輸廻
7,800円/ヨナミ/SCD/'93.10.29/アクション
ドラキュラシリーズの10作目にあた
るPCエンジン版。ファミコンから始ま
り様々な機種へと展開したこのシリーズ
の集大成ともいえる内容だ。PCエンジ
ン版の特徴は、分岐点によリルートが分
かれるステージ構成。
(game ratings get messed up during scan)
Just introducing the Castlevania series and saying the PCE game is unique for its branching paths.
ウル技
ステージセレクト ネームエントリー画
面で名前を「X‐ X!V"Q」と登録する。
次にデータフアイル画面でステージセ
レクトを選ぶ。すると、まだクリアし
ていないステージも選択できるように
なっている。これて裏ステージにも簡
単にいける。
Insert X‐ X!V"Q as your name for stage select. Everyone knows this.
警告用ミニゲーム 旧システムカードで
ゲームを起動させる。すると「あくま
ぢょおどらきゅらX」というタイトル
のミニゲームができる。このステージ
の終わりに、システムカードのバージ
ョン違いの警告画面が表示される。
Use the old system card for a weird mini game. Everyone knows this, too.
マリアの隠し技 マリアでプレイしてい
るときに、上、下、右下、IIの順にす
ばやく押す。するとマリアの分身が出
現して、敵を攻撃してくれる。このコ
マンドはキャラが右向きのときのもの
で、左向きの場合はコマンドの左右が
逆になる。
Up, down, down-right, II for Maria's special attack. Ditto.
リヒターの隠しアイテムクラッシュ リ
ヒターでアイテムを持つてなくて、八
― トが15個以上あるときにアイテム
を使うと「ムチのアイテムクラッシュ」
が使用可能になる。
Hidden item crash - collect 15 hearts and use item crash with no subweapon. Ditto?
リヒターの隠し操作法 リヒターで、ム
チ使用時に向いているほうへ方向キー
を2回入力すると、ムチのリーチが延
びる。また、直立時にIを押しっぱな
しで左右移動せずに方向転換が、IIを
押しっぱなして方向転換せずに左右移
動ができる。さらに、Iボタンをすば
やく2回入力すると、バク転ジャンプ
する。
Lots of secondary Richter controls. Double-tap forward and whip for longer reach. Hold II for moonwalking. Hold I while standing to change direction without moving left or right. Double Tap I for back-flip.
マリアが踊る マリアでプレイし、方向
キーの上を押し続ける。すると、マリ
アが踊り出す。
Hold up when playing as Maria, and she dances.
カギを使って? カギを持っているとき
にアイテム攻撃をするとカギを振り回
し、アイテムクラッシュでは、ただ無
敵のポーズを取る。どちらの場合も八
― 卜を消費しない。
Use item crash while holding the key to strike an invincible pose that doesn't consume hearts.
親子ガメが登場 マリアで八― トが53
個以上あるときに甲羅をかぶると、子
ガメが落ちてきて自キヤラの上にのる。
Use Maria's Turtle cover when you have over 53 hearts, and a baby turtle will come down and ride on top of you.
馬車が走り続ける ステージ0で、デス
が「この次はそうはいかんぞ」といっ
たあと、リヒターをしゃがんだままに
しておくと、馬車が走り続けて、ステ
ージクリアにならない。
When you beat death in stage 0, and death says the line where he flies away, if you squat down and stay down, the stage won't finish.
Hey Dave, is there anything for the Xanadus or Anearth Fantasy Stories?
Wow only 7800円. I'll take 2.
Quote from: SamIAm on 03/29/2015, 07:35 PMHey Dave, is there anything for the Xanadus or Anearth Fantasy Stories?
Without copying over entire sections (time-consuming), there are these:
Emerald Dragon has:
- easy money-making way
- wrong system card warning
- use of memory-base
Kaze no Densetsu no Xanadu (1) has:
- Debug Mode
- 2-player (same time) play
Kaze no Densetsu no Xanadu 2 has:
- 2-player consecutive play
- new way to defeat Melteina
- instant premium mode
Seiya Monogatari has:
- increase funds
- speed movement
- shut eyes
- cursor move quickly
- message fast-forward
Quote from: dshadoff on 03/29/2015, 09:26 PMQuote from: SamIAm on 03/29/2015, 07:35 PMHey Dave, is there anything for the Xanadus or Anearth Fantasy Stories?
Without copying over entire sections (time-consuming), there are these:
Emerald Dragon has:
- easy money-making way
- wrong system card warning
- use of memory-base
Kaze no Densetsu no Xanadu (1) has:
- Debug Mode
- 2-player (same time) play
Kaze no Densetsu no Xanadu 2 has:
- 2-player consecutive play
- new way to defeat Melteina
- instant premium mode
Seiya Monogatari has:
- increase funds
- speed movement
- shut eyes
- cursor move quickly
- message fast-forward
This is an ABRIDGED version of the daigirin...dshadoff collected all of the PC-FX and PCE info into an OCR'ed .pdf:
https://www.tg-16.com/contributors/dshadoff/Daigirin/Daigirin_1997_06_NEC_Extract.pdf (https://www.tg-16.com/contributors/dshadoff/Daigirin/Daigirin_1997_06_NEC_Extract.pdf)
What is the official title of this thing, anyway?
Great stuff here, I didn't know you could moon walk.
There are three hidden stages leftover from an (apparently) earlier revision.
Example of stage 3 (hidden old stage on left, normal on right):
https://tcrf.net/Akumajou_Dracula_X:_Chi_no_Rondo#Unused_Stages
(https://tcrf.net/images/6/67/ADX_TGCD_Stage_3_Unused-0.png) (https://tcrf.net/images/8/8e/ADX_TGCD_Stage_3_Normal-0.png)
(https://tcrf.net/images/6/68/ADX_TGCD_Stage_3_Unused-1.png) (https://tcrf.net/images/4/4c/ADX_TGCD_Stage_3_Normal-1.png)
(https://tcrf.net/images/e/ea/ADX_TGCD_Stage_3_Unused-4.png) (https://tcrf.net/images/1/1f/ADX_TGCD_Stage_3_Normal-4.png)
Quote from: Mednafen on 04/04/2015, 03:25 PMThere are three hidden stages leftover from an (apparently) earlier revision.
Example of stage 3 (hidden old stage on left, normal on right):
https://tcrf.net/Akumajou_Dracula_X:_Chi_no_Rondo#Unused_Stages
(https://tcrf.net/images/6/67/ADX_TGCD_Stage_3_Unused-0.png) (https://tcrf.net/images/8/8e/ADX_TGCD_Stage_3_Normal-0.png)
(https://tcrf.net/images/6/68/ADX_TGCD_Stage_3_Unused-1.png) (https://tcrf.net/images/4/4c/ADX_TGCD_Stage_3_Normal-1.png)
(https://tcrf.net/images/e/ea/ADX_TGCD_Stage_3_Unused-4.png) (https://tcrf.net/images/1/1f/ADX_TGCD_Stage_3_Normal-4.png)
This is fantastic! I love what you have unearthed in this archaeological dig through the code.
:)
Awesome.
Yeah, I've seen those. Haha on accident. The moths around the lanterns are a great touch. It's been a while but I remember them following you when you break the lanterns.
Makes you wonder if Symphony of the Night could have been done with the arcade card and super grafx enabled..
This game was the reason I found out about the PC Engine many years ago. I was told that I couldn't call myself a Castlevania fan, if I didn't know about this version of the game.
I bought my first PC Engine specifically for this (although it was just a burn, since the real thing used to go for 200+ at the time and I was a broke kid). It's still my number one personal favorite Castlevania game.
Quote from: ShadowKitty777 on 04/13/2015, 03:40 PMThis game was the reason I found out about the PC Engine many years ago. I was told that I couldn't call myself a Castlevania fan, if I didn't know about this version of the game.
I bought my first PC Engine specifically for this (although it was just a burn, since the real thing used to go for 200+ at the time and I was a broke kid). It's still my number one personal favorite Castlevania game.
You might enjoy this...this only a taste of the many aspects of Rondo vs. Dracula XX compared in an old, epic thread...
https://www.tg-16.com/screenshot_comparisons_action.htm#dracula_x_sprites
I believe there is a link to the original thread somewhere. If not, I'll have to add it.
It's weird how Drac XX on SNES is the version which looks like it is downgraded/restricted by a lower-bit/number master palette, even when judged on its own, and Drac X for PCE looks like it is utilizing a palette broader than 9-bit, again on it's own and especially in comparison to 'XX.
edit: I also forgot how ridiculous the scene with the werewolf boss is on SNES. They changed the background to force much more perspective, so the werewolf appears to be 30' tall and levitated when he howls at the moon.
i just got my copy in. finally got this amazing game in my collection! but man those birds in the 2nd stage get on my fucking nerves! lol
Quote from: cr8zykuban0 on 04/14/2015, 01:57 AMi just got my copy in. finally got this amazing game in my collection! but man those birds in the 2nd stage get on my fucking nerves! lol
Just hang onto the axe after you've used it on the Wyvern, and all will be well.
Quote from: esteban on 04/13/2015, 05:50 PMYou might enjoy this...this only a taste of the many aspects of Rondo vs. Dracula XX compared in an old, epic thread...
https://www.tg-16.com/screenshot_comparisons_action.htm#dracula_x_sprites (https://www.tg-16.com/screenshot_comparisons_action.htm#dracula_x_sprites)
I believe there is a link to the original thread somewhere. If not, I'll have to add it.
That's really cool. I never noticed that the colors look too neon in the SNES version.
I actually still like Dracula XX, but only because it is unique. Though obviously Rondo is easily the best version. I want to own a legit copy for PC Engine someday.
Quote from: ShadowKitty777 on 04/17/2015, 06:59 AMQuote from: esteban on 04/13/2015, 05:50 PMYou might enjoy this...this only a taste of the many aspects of Rondo vs. Dracula XX compared in an old, epic thread...
https://www.tg-16.com/screenshot_comparisons_action.htm#dracula_x_sprites (https://www.tg-16.com/screenshot_comparisons_action.htm#dracula_x_sprites)
I believe there is a link to the original thread somewhere. If not, I'll have to add it.
That's really cool. I never noticed that the colors look too neon in the SNES version.
I actually still like Dracula XX, but only because it is unique. Though obviously Rondo is easily the best version. I want to own a legit copy for PC Engine someday.
I, too, like Dracula XX and Castlevania IV, despite what naysayers may say :)
They are still fun. :)
Quote from: esteban on 04/17/2015, 04:10 PMI, too, like Dracula XX and Castlevania IV, despite what naysayers may say :)
They are still fun. :)
I was surprised to read so much hate for the game when I was looking around at tags on other sites. I saw some people calling it the worst Castlevania. They didn't even specify they meant the SNES, but I would HOPE that's what they meant.....Even so, I don't think I'd consider it the worst. I always considered Simon's Quest to be the worst, but some people seem to like that one.
Quote from: ShadowKitty777 on 04/17/2015, 05:28 PMQuote from: esteban on 04/17/2015, 04:10 PMI, too, like Dracula XX and Castlevania IV, despite what naysayers may say :)
They are still fun. :)
I was surprised to read so much hate for the game when I was looking around at tags on other sites. I saw some people calling it the worst Castlevania. They didn't even specify they meant the SNES, but I would HOPE that's what they meant.....Even so, I don't think I'd consider it the worst. I always considered Simon's Quest to be the worst, but some people seem to like that one.
The worst Castlevanias are on the Gameboy. That first one is horrible. I regret the $1 or whatever I paid for it on the 3DS eShop when it was on sale.
Quote from: ShadowKitty777 on 04/17/2015, 05:28 PMQuote from: esteban on 04/17/2015, 04:10 PMI, too, like Dracula XX and Castlevania IV, despite what naysayers may say :)
They are still fun. :)
I was surprised to read so much hate for the game when I was looking around at tags on other sites. I saw some people calling it the worst Castlevania. They didn't even specify they meant the SNES, but I would HOPE that's what they meant.....Even so, I don't think I'd consider it the worst. I always considered Simon's Quest to be the worst, but some people seem to like that one.
I loved Simon's Quest. Of course, I played it when it first came out, so the idea was fresh and such a grand extension of the first game.
There were some ridiculous points where I had to ask my friend what to do, but that was true for lots of games back then... :)
THE WORST CASTLEVANIA IS THE ONE WITH SKELETONS RIDING MOTORCYCLES.
N64
Castlevania 2 on the GameBoy has decent gameplay. A little bit too slow, but fortunately the enemies are slowed down too, so there is a fair challenge. The first four levels can be beaten with ease. I haven't gotten past the fifth level, though.
The music is very good as usual for a Castlevania game, and one track got remixed for Castlevania Rebirth on the Wii.
I got mine with the EU-release of the Konami GB collection for the GameBoy Color.
Quote from: guest on 04/18/2015, 05:07 AMCastlevania 2 on the GameBoy has decent gameplay. A little bit too slow, but fortunately the enemies are slowed down too, so there is a fair challenge. The first four levels can be beaten with ease. I haven't gotten past the fifth level, though.
The music is very good as usual for a Castlevania game, and one track got remixed for Castlevania Rebirth on the Wii.
I got mine with the EU-release of the Konami GB collection for the GameBoy Color.
The music in 2 is also awesome. But the first and third one are pretty lousy.
Quote from: Mercutio on 04/14/2015, 04:06 PMQuote from: cr8zykuban0 on 04/14/2015, 01:57 AMi just got my copy in. finally got this amazing game in my collection! but man those birds in the 2nd stage get on my fucking nerves! lol
Just hang onto the axe after you've used it on the Wyvern, and all will be well.
ditto! i was able to kill em all only getting hit once and made it to the 3rd stage but man that shit was hard. i'll use the axes next time
Quote from: cr8zykuban0 on 04/20/2015, 02:36 AMQuote from: Mercutio on 04/14/2015, 04:06 PMQuote from: cr8zykuban0 on 04/14/2015, 01:57 AMi just got my copy in. finally got this amazing game in my collection! but man those birds in the 2nd stage get on my fucking nerves! lol
Just hang onto the axe after you've used it on the Wyvern, and all will be well.
ditto! i was able to kill em all only getting hit once and made it to the 3rd stage but man that shit was hard. i'll use the axes next time
I think I only really use axes and holy water when I play through these days. A lot of the tricky flying enemies are perfectly aligned with the axe's path.
PCE/TG-16|CD/SGX Discussion => Topic started by: PukeSter on 01/16/2014, 05:47 AM