PCEngine-FX.com

Just came across this on Twitter and thought I would share. Someone developed a plug in device for 720p PC Engine output. It is completely plug and play and requires no modding. It is currently being demoed at March Rabbit in Akihabara. I have to run and do some errands so I don't have time to translate right now, so I will add more info if necessary when I get home. Here is a link to the article and the developer's Twitter.

akiba-pc.watch.impress.co.jp/news/20160425_754829.html (https://akiba-pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/news/20160425_754829.html)

QuoteThis is a device that can add a DVI (to-HDMI) output function to the home video game console "PC Engine" released in 1987 without modification. You will be able to play games with higher image quality than the analog AV cable.

(https://asset.watch.impress.co.jp/img/ah/docs/754/829/pce4.jpg) (https://asset.watch.impress.co.jp/img/ah/docs/754/829/pce5.jpg)
(https://asset.watch.impress.co.jp/img/ah/docs/754/829/pce8.jpg) (https://asset.watch.impress.co.jp/img/ah/docs/754/829/pce9.jpg)

https://twitter.com/upergrafx

Damn! Did they dig that poor pc engine out of the toilet?

Quote from: guest on 04/24/2016, 10:07 PMDamn! Did they dig that poor pc engine out of the toilet ?

(https://web.archive.org/web/20210828051813im_/https://akiba-pc.watch.impress.co.jp/img/ah/docs/754/829/pce1.jpg)

wow!

I am certainly interested in this.  I wonder how would this work for CD systems tho...

This is really awesome.  I wonder how it looks in motion?

I sort of know the guy who is creating this (friend of a friend).

1. My understanding is that he's aiming to turn this into a product.  No idea when or how much though.

2. Because it taps into the external bus, it won't work on CDROM games (because the external bus is not exposed on any PCE CDROM machine).

3. It also acts as backup RAM, and because it uses non-volatile FeRAM, the values won't disappear in your lifetime.  A USB port allows one to read the Backup RAM into a computer, too.

4. I heard that as of a few months ago, there was about 1 frame skip every 5 to 6 seconds (slightly jarring), due to NTSC refresh frequency versus HDTV frequency differing by a very small amount.  Other than that, perfectly smooth.  His twitter seems to imply that he's been fiddling with refresh recently and improved it since I last heard.  Not sure if it's completely solved though; one might need to change the internal 21.xxx MHz clock in the PC Engine to completely solve that.

Personally, I'd love it as a mod to a CDROM machine, but I'd probably buy it (if I still played on original equipment).

-Dave

Tom made a thread about this a while back.

https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=20148.msg437045#msg437045 (https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=20148.msg437045#msg437045)

Does it have the UperGrafx/720p logo on the side of the screen at all times? Sure looks like it.

Quote from: guest on 04/24/2016, 10:07 PMDamn! Did they dig that poor pc engine out of the toilet?

Shite looking PCE :)

85% new!

'Tis a neat project in theory, but no CD support makes it a non-starter for me.

Quote from: guest on 04/25/2016, 11:06 AM85% new!

'Tis a neat project in theory, but no CD support makes it a non-starter for me.

I agree. Without CD-ROM support, I'd rather just mod an IFU-30 or a DUO for RGB out. Sure, you need something like a Framemister or a monitor that can use RGB, but it's more flexible than getting a box that only works for PCE gaming.

Quote from: NecroPhile on 04/25/2016, 11:06 AM85% new!

'Tis a neat project in theory, but no CD support makes it a non-starter for me.

I guess antique enthusiasts would call that patina lol

QuoteI guess antique enthusiasts would call that patina lol

Cue the incoming Pawn Stars memes.

Quote from: technozombie on 04/25/2016, 04:28 PM

QuoteI guess antique enthusiasts would call that patina lol

Cue the incoming Pawn Stars memes.

Antiques Road Show.

Our demographic here skews to older folks who watched PBS at various points in their lives.

:)

Quote from: esteban on 04/25/2016, 10:03 PM

Quote from: technozombie on 04/25/2016, 04:28 PM

QuoteI guess antique enthusiasts would call that patina lol

Cue the incoming Pawn Stars memes.

Antiques Road Show.

Our demographic here skews to older folks who watched PBS at various points in their lives.

:)

Lol [emoji3] Can't argue there

This box really doesn't seem practical. Why not just build one that would accept rgb/scart/jp21 in addition to plugging directly into the system? It could be cheaper alternative to an xrgb mini.

That looks like the same project box i used for my RGB box. Just painted black. The underside matches up almost exact (cant see it here).

RGBox.jpg

Sounds like it just has a built in scart RGB upscaler in the box. This device I use can go from 720-1080 with my pc engine. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Scart-to-HDMI-Video-With-3-5mm-and-Coaxial-Audio-Converter-Box-1080P-Upscaler-/391441849877?hash=item5b23c09e15:g:XnQAAOSwAuNW4O9G (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Scart-to-HDMI-Video-With-3-5mm-and-Coaxial-Audio-Converter-Box-1080P-Upscaler-/391441849877?hash=item5b23c09e15:g:XnQAAOSwAuNW4O9G) Also has the very minor shutter every 5-6 seconds if the game is scrolling very fast without any pause anywhere.

Yeah I use the same one.

Quote from: Keith Courage on 04/29/2016, 05:07 AMSounds like it just has a built in scart RGB upscaler in the box. This device I use can go from 720-1080 with my pc engine. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Scart-to-HDMI-Video-With-3-5mm-and-Coaxial-Audio-Converter-Box-1080P-Upscaler-/391441849877?hash=item5b23c09e15:g:XnQAAOSwAuNW4O9G (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Scart-to-HDMI-Video-With-3-5mm-and-Coaxial-Audio-Converter-Box-1080P-Upscaler-/391441849877?hash=item5b23c09e15:g:XnQAAOSwAuNW4O9G) Also has the very minor shutter every 5-6 seconds if the game is scrolling very fast without any pause anywhere.

I'm pretty sure SCART is still based on the analogue output of the PC Engine.

The upergrafx uses only the digital signals, bypasses the RGB ADCs, and stores the digital values into a frame buffer, and re-synthesizes the output to the different scanning format based on the framebuffer in digital format.

That would be a huge difference, totally.

Bit either way, it's a lot of bullshit to go through and still get frame drops. The crap you flat panel guys put up with just to avoid having a CRT is nuts.

Quote from: dshadoff on 04/29/2016, 09:39 PMThe upergrafx uses only the digital signals, bypasses the RGB ADCs, and stores the digital values into a frame buffer, and re-synthesizes the output to the different scanning format based on the framebuffer in digital format.

Pretty cool, I didn't know about this. Would like to see him offer a guide/means towards tapping the needed digital signals out of a CD system eventually but that's interesting the signals could be tapped all along from the HuCard-only systems without physical modding/changes.

Does the EXT port provide the digital signals directly from the PPU?

I'm not sure about the refresh rates being different causing 1 frame drops.  Since the refresh rates wouldn't be any different.  The ATSC standard which is the HDTV standard supports multiple refresh rates, including the refresh rates from NTSC.

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 04/30/2016, 07:17 PMDoes the EXT port provide the digital signals directly from the PPU?

That's a good question everything I've seen seems to point to it just sending the RGB and sync signal.  The dude at db-elec might be able to answer that question since he makes a Grafx Booster for the Turbo Grafx (and I think core grafx) that allows you to get RGB, and SVideo out, and he does so by tapping into the ext port.   

http://db-electronics.ca/product/dbgrafx-booster-ttp/ (http://db-electronics.ca/product/dbgrafx-booster-ttp/)

This product is simply taking RGB and then running that to a Sony CXA encoder that coverts it to S-video signal.

I'm curious what the Ubergrafx is using, video bus lines?

Quote from: Johnpv on 05/01/2016, 07:08 PMI'm not sure about the refresh rates being different causing 1 frame drops.  Since the refresh rates wouldn't be any different.  The ATSC standard which is the HDTV standard supports multiple refresh rates, including the refresh rates from NTSC.

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 04/30/2016, 07:17 PMDoes the EXT port provide the digital signals directly from the PPU?

That's a good question everything I've seen seems to point to it just sending the RGB and sync signal.  The dude at db-elec might be able to answer that question since he makes a Grafx Booster for the Turbo Grafx (and I think core grafx) that allows you to get RGB, and SVideo out, and he does so by tapping into the ext port.   

http://db-electronics.ca/product/dbgrafx-booster-ttp/ (http://db-electronics.ca/product/dbgrafx-booster-ttp/)

Quote from: Johnpv on 05/01/2016, 07:08 PMI'm not sure about the refresh rates being different causing 1 frame drops.  Since the refresh rates wouldn't be any different.  The ATSC standard which is the HDTV standard supports multiple refresh rates, including the refresh rates from NTSC.

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 04/30/2016, 07:17 PMDoes the EXT port provide the digital signals directly from the PPU?

That's a good question everything I've seen seems to point to it just sending the RGB and sync signal.  The dude at db-elec might be able to answer that question since he makes a Grafx Booster for the Turbo Grafx (and I think core grafx) that allows you to get RGB, and SVideo out, and he does so by tapping into the ext port.   

http://db-electronics.ca/product/dbgrafx-booster-ttp/ (http://db-electronics.ca/product/dbgrafx-booster-ttp/)

The PCE doesn't output 59.94hz or an even 60hz. It's 60.xx for one mode, and 59.xx for the other mode (The PCE has 262 scanline mode and 263 scanline mode, and the system doesn't adjust for this extra scanline time). So it's possible not all TVs would display the refresh rate in digital format natively, vs something like their analog inputs. A frame blend instead of the frame drop, for that single phase difference when it comes up (every so many seconds), should do the trick.

Could the game be programmed to switch between mode at each field? So when it's combined on video output, it'd be true 525 lines for proper NTSC standard?  Or is switching video mode a little slow to do in the vertical banking?

Quote from: wilykat on 05/02/2016, 03:19 AMCould the game be programmed to switch between mode at each field? So when it's combined on video output, it'd be true 525 lines for proper NTSC standard?  Or is switching video mode a little slow to do in the vertical banking?

It can. And since you can generate an hsync interrupt on any scanline, which makes this easier from a timing perspective. But what's missing is the equalization pulses that identify even/odd fields - so it's not a true interlaced signal. I've tried this on some HD sets and they didn't like the signal much. SDTV sets though, never had a problem with this trick on the PCE (demo, others have done this too - Ccovell).

I wonder if the Framemeister would hate it. It can't stand the interlaced mode on Sonic 2 and Ys 3 on the Genesis.

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 05/02/2016, 11:51 PMI wonder if the Framemeister would hate it. It can't stand the interlaced mode on Sonic 2 and Ys 3 on the Genesis.

Does it mess up?

Big time. Normal interlacing is fine, but I guess maybe the Genesis' timing isn't exactly what it needs to be for the scaler to understand.

Have you tried Chris Covell's PCE interlacing demo with it?

I don't think I have, no. In fact I don't think I ever downloaded that one.

Quote from: TurboXray on 05/02/2016, 11:02 PMBut what's missing is the equalization pulses that identify even/odd fields - so it's not a true interlaced signal. I've tried this on some HD sets and they didn't like the signal much. SDTV sets though, never had a problem with this trick on the PCE (demo, others have done this too - Ccovell).

Can these equalization pulses be "simulated", either by switching the VCE/VDC on/off quickly at this time, or by putting noise on the video line/GND some other way (square waves through all 6 sound DACs, for instance)?

GameTechUS got one of these to try out and I guess give feedback to the developer about. http://youtu.be/b4baUgr0Ym0 Also HOLY SHIT 40,000 YEN!  That's insanely expensive, buy a framemeister for less.  It also works on a TG16, which makes sense since the pin out on that back port should probably be the same.

A bit pricey buy I hope they can get it out on the market a lot cheaper..

/upergrafxscreen.jpg

HDCP? Why would you want to add copy protection to the signal? I've never heard of a TV requiring it.

they need to get rid of the bars on the side with advertising of their product name.  no one is going to want to buy this at that price with its current design.

Quote from: mickcris on 06/02/2016, 12:56 PMthey need to get rid of the bars on the side with advertising of their product name.  no one is going to want to buy this at that price with its current design.

the designer said in the comments the product name bars were just for the demo units they sent out

Way too expensive and no CD support is a show stopper for me. 

I'm not sure what is the obsession with playing old games on a HDTV.  I'm all about RGB and love image quality but I find myself using my CRT and s-video more than I do the xrgb mini on the 24" LCD.  People can argue space but a decent 20" CRT does not take up that much space.

Praise be for rgb scart TVs by the bucket load.

Ok lets answer a few questions
The video bus is available on the back
The scan timing is generated by a clock divider in the 6260
the pixel clock is also a divider in the 6260 sent to the 6270
Pixels are sent real time in 9bit from the 6270 and the 6260 assigns the colors to the data

Sent from my VS920 4G using Tapatalk

Currently working on new timing generator for the system to generate interlaced output

Sent from my VS920 4G using Tapatalk

Quote from: ginoscope on 06/02/2016, 04:12 PMWay too expensive and no CD support is a show stopper for me. 

I'm not sure what is the obsession with playing old games on a HDTV.  I'm all about RGB and love image quality but I find myself using my CRT and s-video more than I do the xrgb mini on the 24" LCD.  People can argue space but a decent 20" CRT does not take up that much space.

My 13" RGB monitor doesn't feel small and fits on the corner of my desk. I still only use it as a novelty or for arcade games (especially ceryical ones)

Quote from: Johnpv on 06/02/2016, 10:13 AMGameTechUS got one of these to try out and I guess give feedback to the developer about.

http://youtu.be/b4baUgr0Ym0

Also HOLY SHIT 40,000 YEN!  That's insanely expensive, buy a framemeister for less.  It also works on a TG16, which makes sense since the pin out on that back port should probably be the same.

OK, in light of the new competing PCE Super SD System 3 product (https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=22850.0), I was reminded of this Japanese DVI/HDMI supporting one.

Notes:

* http://www.upergrafx.com
* https://twitter.com/upergrafx
* It's called Uper Grafx 720p Booster.
* Output port is DVI, so you need a DVI to HDMI cable, audio is included so you don't need separate RCA connections.
* Pricing according to GameTechUS was hovering at $368 or 40,000 YEN, not good...
* From looking at the Japanese website with Google Translate, it appears CD image support has been added. It needs images made with CD Manipulator. http://www.upergrafx.com/cdrom2_setup_ja
* There's some debate if it taps a digital signal or does a good job of encoding the analog RGB back to digital before tripling the resolution from 240p to 720p. Better be all digital for the kind of money you're looking at! States it's full digital on their Twitter. http://youtu.be/b4baUgr0Ym0 Tough call on this one, but definitely has potential. I just want the board that triples the resolution and encodes to DVI/HDMI like what GameTech is talking about. I hope further progress is made on it.

http://www.upergrafx.com/faq_en

QuoteQ3.Is it possible to install on a DUO internally?
A3. There are around 60 connections that would need to be made so it's not really feasible.
The lines that are required are all over the PCB and on the legs of fine pitch components. We think the possibility of successfully installing it would be very low.

Hahaha!!!! OK, they answered the Duo question...

QuoteQ6.Why not use a HDMI connector?
A6. HDMI certification is expensive and the signal being output isn't strictly HDMI compliant.

Ah, I see, so DVI to HDMI cable it is.

Quote from: Johnpv on 05/01/2016, 07:08 PMI'm not sure about the refresh rates being different causing 1 frame drops.  Since the refresh rates wouldn't be any different.  The ATSC standard which is the HDTV standard supports multiple refresh rates, including the refresh rates from NTSC.

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 04/30/2016, 07:17 PMDoes the EXT port provide the digital signals directly from the PPU?

That's a good question everything I've seen seems to point to it just sending the RGB and sync signal.  The dude at db-elec might be able to answer that question since he makes a Grafx Booster for the Turbo Grafx (and I think core grafx) that allows you to get RGB, and SVideo out, and he does so by tapping into the ext port.   

http://db-electronics.ca/product/dbgrafx-booster-ttp/ (http://db-electronics.ca/product/dbgrafx-booster-ttp/)

Their description here says digital:
http://youtu.be/LN3L1mLRWhs

The FAQ on the English site says that it's missing the extra graphics when used for SuperGrafx games, which tells me that they aren't interfacing with the muxed analog RGB.

Quote from: Johnpv on 06/02/2016, 10:13 AMGameTechUS got one of these to try out and I guess give feedback to the developer about.

http://youtu.be/b4baUgr0Ym0


Also HOLY SHIT 40,000 YEN!  That's insanely expensive, buy a framemeister for less.  It also works on a TG16, which makes sense since the pin out on that back port should probably be the same.

Said 35,000¥ ($316 USD) when I checked yesterday so it seems they've had s price drop. That would still be crazy expensive if we didn't also factor that it now has an optical drive emulator (ODE) for CD-ROM^2 games. The Super SD System 3 is also around $300 for that functionality and it does not do digital video.

Quote from: ginoscope on 06/02/2016, 04:12 PMWay too expensive and no CD support is a show stopper for me. 

I'm not sure what is the obsession with playing old games on a HDTV.  I'm all about RGB and love image quality but I find myself using my CRT and s-video more than I do the xrgb mini on the 24" LCD.  People can argue space but a decent 20" CRT does not take up that much space.

I would agree with your first statement except it looks like they intended to add an ODE all along. ;)

Anyway, I completely disagree about RGB CRTs though, but not strictly in comparison to HDMI/DVI. It comes down to being able to connect/use your console with whatever set you encounter and being able to do so in the best quality the display supports.

RGB CRTs simply are not available in the USA where component and S-video monitors are plentiful (LCDs and CRTs). I always chuckle when Jason Rauch (GameTechUS) asks why anyone wants S-video or component... while sitting in front of his junk PVM that he has been unable to fix or replace for years (shifted purple). :D Kevin Horton (Kevtris), who has done a PVM repair video of his own, even stopped by to look at it. He's the perfect example of why component and S-video are better options for many people and yet he said it again in the recent video where he and Voultar critique Doujindance's old Duo mod work.

Heck, with a collection of Wega Trinitron, HD Trinitron, and XBR SFP Trinitron TVs, I have some of the best consumer CRTs ever made and yet I still can't properly utilize RGB. I probably can't use this on those TVs either because their HDMI/DVI inputs are notoriously picky: PS3 HDMI output works in 480p, 720p, or 1080i, yet Hi-Def NES only works in 480p and UltraHDMI doesn't work at all (so much for Kevtris and MarshallH enduring compatibility/compliance with that HDMI signal analyzer!). *sigh* Component and S-video work gloriously.

An OSSC will have the same issues with PCE/TG16 signals as it does for SNES signals. At least the UpperGrafx can buffer one frame to improve compatibility.

A 24" flat panel and a 20 CRT is not really a fair comparison because the sizes are only appropriate for personal use (these days). Perhaps I have a different perspective because my collection is shared with my twin brother, but neither of those are sized for playing 3p Secret of Mana or Mario Kart 64 Battle Mode in the living room when you have friends over. I can just disconnect my N64 and take it to the XBR LCD when friends arrive but I don't have that freedom with RGB. Even with that scenario, I feel that a retro system worth playing deserves a spot in the living room. It's literally what my living room home theater is for. I mean, screw television programming! I'd rather play some games on that XBR beast. ;)

This has always been the case. In 2003 I returned a 30" $900 Samsung CRT HDTV and paid $2,300 for a different 30" CRT HDTV simply because 4:3 480p GameCube games were forced to stretch to 16:9 on the first one. I bought that HDTV specifically to play both 4:3 and 16:9 GCN and XBOX games in 480p. Heck, one of the first things I did was play around with Goldeneye 007's anamorphic widescreen modes... using S-video. I don't regret the purchase one bit as the only PVM/BVMs that compare have the exact same tube and this thing has served me well for gaming almost 15 years (finicky support for home brew digital output mods, not withstanding).

Quote from: thesteve on 06/03/2016, 05:53 PMCurrently working on new timing generator for the system to generate interlaced output

Awesome! Any updates on this?

Quote from: NightWolve on 12/19/2017, 12:38 PM

Quote from: Johnpv on 06/02/2016, 10:13 AMGameTechUS got one of these to try out and I guess give feedback to the developer about.

http://youtu.be/b4baUgr0Ym0


Also HOLY SHIT 40,000 YEN!  That's insanely expensive, buy a framemeister for less.  It also works on a TG16, which makes sense since the pin out on that back port should probably be the same.

OK, in light of the new competing PCE Super SD System 3 product (https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=22850.0), I was reminded of this Japanese DVI/HDMI supporting one.

Notes:

* http://www.upergrafx.com
* https://twitter.com/upergrafx
* It's called Uper Grafx 720p Booster.
* Output port is DVI, so you need a DVI to HDMI cable, audio is included so you don't need separate RCA connections.
* Pricing according to GameTechUS was hovering at $368 or 40,000 YEN, not good...
* From looking at the Japanese website with Google Translate, it appears CD image support has been added. It needs images made with CD Manipulator. http://www.upergrafx.com/cdrom2_setup_ja
* There's some debate if it taps a digital signal or does a good job of encoding the analog RGB back to digital before tripling the resolution from 240p to 720p. Better be all digital for the kind of money you're looking at! States it's full digital on their Twitter. http://youtu.be/b4baUgr0Ym0 Tough call on this one, but definitely has potential. I just want the board that triples the resolution and encodes to DVI/HDMI like what GameTech is talking about. I hope further progress is made on it.

If that 35,000¥, $316 USD price I see is right, it seems that there has been a price drop.

No question about the video interface though: It's definitely digital. See the description here:
http://youtu.be/LN3L1mLRWhs

Also, their English FAQ says that SuperGrafx games are missing their extra graphics, which would not happen if they were simply converting analog RGB.

QuoteSaid 35,000¥ ($316 USD) when I checked yesterday so it seems they've had s price drop. That would still be crazy expensive if we didn't also factor that it now has an optical drive emulator (ODE) for CD-ROM^2 games. The Super SD System 3 is also around $300 for that functionality and it does not do digital video.

I thought that the digital video was too messed up to be worth using? A setup that limits you to only hdtv isn't as valuable for 240p consoles, since RGB can be used for virtually perfect video on crt or digital hdtvs.

Last time I read notes about this, the CD emulation was fairly poor. If it's not 99% perfect then you can't even compare it to the SSS3 for that isolated feature. Nevermind what else the SSS3 does.


You don't need a crt with RGB in North America. My 32+" Wega displaying RGB transcoded to component looks better than small RGB and arcade monitors.

Edit: Something glitches horribly in Tapatalk. All I did was launch it and it started posting something!

Quote from: guest on 12/28/2017, 02:34 PM

QuoteSaid 35,000¥ ($316 USD) when I checked yesterday so it seems they've had s price drop. That would still be crazy expensive if we didn't also factor that it now has an optical drive emulator (ODE) for CD-ROM^2 games. The Super SD System 3 is also around $300 for that functionality and it does not do digital video.

I thought that the digital video was too messed up to be worth using? A setup that limits you to only hdtv isn't as valuable for 240p consoles, since RGB can be used for virtually perfect video on crt or digital hdtvs.

No more "messed up" than SNES and PCE/TG16 through OSSC. Also, they've since enabled a 1 frame buffer. You get the same issues when you enable direct mode in UltraHDMI and other similar projects too but buffering solves the problem with less than/up to one frame of lag.

Quote from: guest on 12/28/2017, 02:34 PMLast time I read notes about this, the CD emulation was fairly poor. If it's not 99% perfect then you can't even compare it to the SSS3 for that isolated feature. Nevermind what else the SSS3 does.

Well, I'm actively absorbing all of this info now and that sounds like exactly the kind of info I'm looking for. [emoji4] Where'd you hear it? I do see Arcade Card games being played on their YouTube channel, though I still don't know if the actual card is required.

Quote from: guest on 12/28/2017, 02:34 PMYou don't need a crt with RGB in North America. My 32+" Wega displaying RGB transcoded to component looks better than small RGB and arcade monitors.

Exactly. Component is more useful than RGB for the sets available in the USA. No discernible quality difference with a HUGE discernible usability difference (Heck, we probably have the same TV... is an an HS510 or the later one with HDMI?).

With RGB transcoded to component and S-video, I can take my modded console from CRT to modern flat panel, and back again and have the best of both worlds (RGB-class image on some displays, best available on others), so it's amusing to see GameTechUS and Voultar wonder why anyone wants component/S-video... with the same busted PVM he's been forced to use for years sitting right beside him... AS they actively remove S-video and composite from a Duo RX. What fallback does that leave when unchained from an RGB monitor? Junk.

The DVI output for this thing would give me even better results on the flat panel without needing to hope for good 240p handling. Also, 720p will integer scale to 4K if you disable all of your TV's image processing (game mode, disable overscan compensation, no interpolated frames, etc). A 720p digital to digital PCE/TG16 interface would be much appreciated among people who just want the best connection for the widest variety of potential monitors.

The Duo RX doesn't do S-Video natively... So not sure what you are talking about there.

Component has similar limitations as RGB in the US. RGB requires a PVM or modified CRT obviously, but 240p component still needs either a CRT or a tv that actually supports it. Of all the Tv's in my house of which there are 7 only my 2010 Sony LED and my PVM support 240p component. My brand new 2017 OLED doesn't even have component hookups.

In the modern age we are going to be reliant on some kind of converter to continue to use old consoles. Personally I think the Upergrafx is going to have a small market. Glad to see the price has come down finally though because the old price was insanely high.

Quote from: MobiusStripTech on 12/28/2017, 10:58 PMThe Duo RX doesn't do S-Video natively... So not sure what you are talking about there.

Right. Doujindance added it then Voultar and GameTechUS wondered why anyone would want it as they actively removed it. Jason has asked the same thing many times in the past, usually in reference to NESRGB options.

Quote from: MobiusStripTech on 12/28/2017, 10:58 PMComponent has similar limitations as RGB in the US. RGB requires a PVM or modified CRT obviously, but 240p component still needs either a CRT or a tv that actually supports it. Of all the Tv's in my house of which there are 7 only my 2010 Sony LED and my PVM support 240p component. My brand new 2017 OLED doesn't even have component hookups.

I acknowledge that they don't always properly support 240p over component, but the same thing applies to 240p composite. The point of component is to upgrade over composite/S-video, same as RGB. At least the TVs typically treat it as 480i over the analog inputs so it works and you do get a quality improvement over straight composite. I'm acutely aware that the latest TVs don't have analog inputs because my twin brother's job has involved daily HT setup for over 10 years. Losing analog inputs is just another reason why having a digital option is also important. Regardless, the situation for component is nowhere near where the situation is for RGB. Used component-capable TVs are plentiful. That was never the case for RGB TVs in the USA.

Everything in my house supports 240p over component in some way and not a single one of them was purchased with that in mind. Heck, I noticed "240p" on my KDL-52XBR2 the first time I played Ico on it back in 2006. I wouldn't say that TV handles it well (as 240p test suite demonstrates) but it does accept it. The XBR910 handles is gloriously. The HS510 seems awesome but I've noticed a hitch every 5-6 seconds with the NES (similar to what the UpperGrafx reportedly does in unbuffered/direct mode?).

Quote from: MobiusStripTech on 12/28/2017, 10:58 PMIn the modern age we are going to be reliant on some kind of converter to continue to use old consoles. Personally I think the Upergrafx is going to have a small market. Glad to see the price has come down finally though because the old price was insanely high.

Agreed, but with Micomsoft ending production on the XRGB Mini, no 4K successors announced, and OSSC having many compatibility issues with notoriously non-compliant retro consoles, I will take all the console-specific solutions I can get Mike Moffet's Neo VGA, UltraHDMI, Hi-Def NES, UpperGragx: YES PLEASE.

I'd be using it with a TG16. Since the UpperGrafx prevents me from connecting S-video, RGB, or even composite, I'd certainly be modding it since I wouldn't want to be stuck on DVI just to use the ODE. That said, I still don't know enough about it to make choose it over the SSDSys3. Hopefully CoreGrafx or CoreGrafx II users can still utilize the multi-out when using the UpperGrafx ODE.

I'm not saying anything bad about console specific solutions. I'd prefer them in most cases. I just have not been impressed with this product. It had limited functionality when released and was extremely expensive. As far as I have heard the functionality is still not on par with the new TerraOnion product.

S-video is one of those things that many people missed the boat on and didn't live really long. So I get removing it. Personally I would rather do RGB and if I want component just get some HDRetrovision cables. Plus the issues with the OSSC are getting better. It's still an actively developed open source product. Revision 1.6 made it a viable contender to the framemeister. If they correct the snes issues specifically, it will probably start to see a bigger uptick.

Quote from: MobiusStripTech on 12/29/2017, 12:26 AM...As far as I have heard the functionality is still not on par with the new TerraOnion product...

You're the second to say this but I'm still trying to find any English language impressions since the ODE functionality has been enabled. Even their own English language section acts like the feature doesn't exist yet. :(

Understandably, that's exactly the kind of impressions I'd want to read before making a decision so I'm very interested in where anyone has described or compared the specifics. Jason didn't even mention that it had a card slot! Would you happen to remember where you heard that? Did they say whether or not it requires an Arcade Card for Arcade CD-ROM games? So few people are even talking about it outside of Japan that it could fly right under the radar even if it were up to par... or even decidedly superior.

Quote from: MobiusStripTech on 12/29/2017, 12:26 AMS-video is one of those things that many people missed the boat on and didn't live really long. So I get removing it.

S-Video was around for awhile, it was introduced in 1979.  Machines like the Commodore 64 (You need the model with the 8 pin din which has separate luma and chroma outputs), Commodore 128 and Atari 8-bit computers had it.  The more common 4-pin mini din we associate with S-Video was introduced in 1987.

Quote from: Johnpv on 12/29/2017, 01:04 AM

Quote from: MobiusStripTech on 12/29/2017, 12:26 AMS-video is one of those things that many people missed the boat on and didn't live really long. So I get removing it.

S-Video was around for awhile, it was introduced in 1979.  Machines like the Commodore 64 (You need the model with the 8 pin din which has separate luma and chroma outputs), Commodore 128 and Atari 8-bit computers had it.  The more common 4-pin mini din we associate with S-Video was introduced in 1987.

Unfortunately it wasn't generally available in your average TV until we were on the verge of component with the popularity of DVD players but it was available first and all the way up to the advent of digital inputs, making it's useful life a bit longer before DVI/HDMI displaces both... and that's when all the best CRTs were being made. XBOX 360 and Wii were still component only and a lot of people were using it for DVD players so it died a slow death.

The facts are, finding a good CRT in the USA with component and S-video is infinitely easier than finding any CRT with RGB. Because many retro consoles support these natively, there is good reason to have and use them if you live in the USA. Without a PVM or some exotic solution there is no real world advantage to RGB here over an component encoded from RGB. Heck, even the OSSC works fine with component. I can switch a component console from OSSC to any number of TVs but I can't do that with RGB.

Oh yeah, and a few more things...

Quote from: MobiusStripTech on 12/29/2017, 12:26 AMI'm not saying anything bad about console specific solutions. I'd prefer them in most cases. I just have not been impressed with this product. It had limited functionality when released and was extremely expensive. As far as I have heard the functionality is still not on par with the new TerraOnion product.

My impression is that those were based on previews. For example, there was no menu for Jason and they kept saying that the forced pillarbox logos were just for showcasing it at preview events. We might have been prejudiced by early impressions.

Quote from: MobiusStripTech on 12/29/2017, 12:26 AMS-video is one of those things that many people missed the boat on and didn't live really long. So I get removing it. Personally I would rather do RGB and if I want component just get some HDRetrovision cables. Plus the issues with the OSSC are getting better. It's still an actively developed open source product. Revision 1.6 made it a viable contender to the framemeister. If they correct the snes issues specifically, it will probably start to see a bigger uptick.

The OSSC is great, but the relevant issues aren't technically with the OSSC and, thus, it isn't likely that it can ever address them on its own. It seems that they are issues between the original consoles and modern TVs that are intolerant of their timings. As a line-doubler, OSSC does not buffer frames and, thus, it cannot force a non-standard signal into compliance. To change timings you must buffer or drop frames unless you can control the device generating the signal (it can't). Hi-Def NES and AVS do control the console's timing. The issue the UpperGrafx reportedly had before they enabled frame buffering is unavoidable with an OSSC (assuming it is caused by our-of-spec timings). It can't simply enable frame buffering when it doesn't have a frame buffer. OSSC is always in direct mode, which is great if your TV is tolerant of the consoles you want to play.

It sounds like they jumped the gun when they first announced UpperGrafx and the bad initial impressions are still dogging it today, which is why I'm really eager to see updated impressions. They really should have waited until ODE and frame buffering was ready.

Quote from: Johnpv on 12/29/2017, 01:04 AM

Quote from: MobiusStripTech on 12/29/2017, 12:26 AMS-video is one of those things that many people missed the boat on and didn't live really long. So I get removing it.

S-Video was around for awhile, it was introduced in 1979.  Machines like the Commodore 64 (You need the model with the 8 pin din which has separate luma and chroma outputs), Commodore 128 and Atari 8-bit computers had it.  The more common 4-pin mini din we associate with S-Video was introduced in 1987.

I'm not saying s-video as a standard wasn't around. The issue was availability. As you said the 4pin mini-DIN, which was introduced later is the more common one people are aware of. The problem was that it wasn't included on most consumer grade products until as CZroe said, component was becoming readily available. I used s-video for years and never touched component because my s-video looked great. But I wasn't your average consumer. I actually owned a SVHS player, which did use s-video.

To CZroe's question about where I saw the Upergrafx, I never saw any video from Jason. I saw some videos that the team that created it put out and read a few reviews on it. My understanding was that it does not do Arcade Card support and needed specific file structures for the ODE. Honestly their initial price was such a huge turnoff to me that I have ignored most new information.

Most people in North America used an RF switch through the 32-bit generation and composite only became popular during the generation after. Then we got the Xbox 360. :P

Quote from: MobiusStripTech on 12/29/2017, 02:56 AM

Quote from: Johnpv on 12/29/2017, 01:04 AM

Quote from: MobiusStripTech on 12/29/2017, 12:26 AMS-video is one of those things that many people missed the boat on and didn't live really long. So I get removing it.

S-Video was around for awhile, it was introduced in 1979.  Machines like the Commodore 64 (You need the model with the 8 pin din which has separate luma and chroma outputs), Commodore 128 and Atari 8-bit computers had it.  The more common 4-pin mini din we associate with S-Video was introduced in 1987.

To CZroe's question about where I saw the Upergrafx, I never saw any video from Jason. I saw some videos that the team that created it put out and read a few reviews on it. My understanding was that it does not do Arcade Card support and needed specific file structures for the ODE. Honestly their initial price was such a huge turnoff to me that I have ignored most new information.

The only videos and written discussion I can find that reference the ODE function are Japanese and I can't glean that information (despite trying). Google Translate has been of very limited use, particularly on a smartphone. Did you find English reviews that reference the ODE function? I really thought I'd find those here if they existed. I'm just seeing their outdated English site which still thinks this is just for DVI-oh! ...and a couple outdated videos on YouTube. Other than us trying to guess and glean, the only discussion I can find on the ODE function is Japanese. [emoji20]

Quote from: guest on 12/29/2017, 09:18 AMMost people in North America used an RF switch through the 32-bit generation and composite only became popular during the generation after. Then we got the Xbox 360. [emoji14]

Well, the consoles of the mid-'90s generally didn't include an RF switch but a lot of people had RF only TVs and had to buy one. I bought one because I would routinely bring my system to friends and find that their TV was RF-only and they didn't have a VCR to run it through. Perhaps that experience is why I want the options with the widest compatibility even today. [emoji4]

Going to need at least a Laser 7 output from this thing.

http://southpark.cc.com/clips/4pd2am/laser-7-output

Well, digging further through the Google Translate English version of their Japanese pages with a proper PC, I get some additional info, though some seems contradictory.

Though the English site says that all the hardware for CD-ROM^2 functionality is present/populated, the Japanese site presents the function as a new feature for the UGX-02 hardware (original is UGX-01). Some statements seem to imply that the UGX-01 CAN run CD-ROM titles, and it isn't listed in the short list of differences. Perhaps they both have it but compatibility is different? They mention the possibility of renovating/retrofitting the old ones but they have not offered/priced the service yet. The changes seem to be minor stuff, like the ability to update without a PC, slightly different port positions, double the internal SRAM (2Mbit to 4Mbit) even though it doesn't currently utilize the extra 2Mbits for anything, and it uses a standard sized SD card (as opposed to microSD?).

They added HuCard/TurboChip dumping to both as an "unofficial" function. Neat!

It can dump the framebuffer to your PC as a PNG file. That's why the screen freezes when you press the button. Jason/GameTechUS couldn't figure out what that was for but now it's clearly so that you can see if you got the frame you want before dumping the frame buffer to the PC.

The UGX-02 actually costs more than the older one. If the older one currently doesn't support CD-ROM^2 emulation, it's still grossly overpriced. [emoji20]

There is some kind of setting where you choose your System Card type. It does not have a separate setting for Arcade Card and Super System Card 3.0 because they use the same ROM. The way they word it makes it seem like you might be able to run Arcade Card titles with a Super System Card but probably not. You definitely need a card of some kind inserted and the Arcade Card Duo doesn't work because it has no ROM (relies on the Duo's built-in Super System Card 3.0).

When they unveiled the CD-ROM^2 ODE function they said that the memory card was "MMC." There is some compatibility between SD and MMC, so hopefully they weren't saying that the feature requires MMC like a Nokia nGage.

There is some mention of CD-ROM^2 compatibility with the UGX-01 being improved with future updates, which implies that it was working on the original version in some form. Perhaps it just doesn't have great compatibility? I saw numbers like 70% and 80% compatibility. Even on real hardware some CD-ROM titles that stream FMV from the disc can have problems when the drive reads too slow or two fast. They brag that it loads faster from SD so I wonder if that is the issue.

The internal memory card function allows you to backup to PC.

It looks like the old version's SD-slot was not installed though the casing still had a hole for it. Guess it wasn't fully populated for the feature as they claim!

This is what I've gleaned so far.

I have an UperGrafx (UGX-01:  no CDROM or SD version) and I think it works well for what it does.  I've played around with pretty much every function and if anyone has any questions, I'll try to answer as best as I can.  Just remember, I'm no expert in video signals or anything like that. :P

Quote from: CZroe on 12/29/2017, 04:13 PMWell, digging further through the Google Translate English version of their Japanese pages with a proper PC, I get some additional info, though some seems contradictory.

Though the English site says that all the hardware for CD-ROM^2 functionality is present/populated, the Japanese site presents the function as a new feature for the UGX-02 hardware (original is UGX-01). Some statements seem to imply that the UGX-01 CAN run CD-ROM titles, and it isn't listed in the short list of differences. Perhaps they both have it but compatibility is different? They mention the possibility of renovating/retrofitting the old ones but they have not offered/priced the service yet. The changes seem to be minor stuff, like the ability to update without a PC, slightly different port positions, double the internal SRAM (2Mbit to 4Mbit) even though it doesn't currently utilize the extra 2Mbits for anything, and it uses a standard sized SD card (as opposed to microSD?).

My understanding is the UGX-01 can be upgraded to support CD-ROM titles but will cost extra for this service.  There is no SD card slot on the board, so I'm thinking it might be as simple as soldering one on there and updating the firmware (I hope!).

QuoteThey added HuCard/TurboChip dumping to both as an "unofficial" function. Neat!

This is probably my most used function of this device.  It's not perfect, but it works. 

QuoteIt can dump the framebuffer to your PC as a PNG file. That's why the screen freezes when you press the button. Jason/GameTechUS couldn't figure out what that was for but now it's clearly so that you can see if you got the frame you want before dumping the frame buffer to the PC.

This is nice to have, but it'd be easier to do this in an emulator.  The screen does blank when you take a screenshot... I think the game freezes momentarily too.

QuoteThere is some kind of setting where you choose your System Card type. It does not have a separate setting for Arcade Card and Super System Card 3.0 because they use the same ROM. The way they word it makes it seem like you might be able to run Arcade Card titles with a Super System Card but probably not. You definitely need a card of some kind inserted and the Arcade Card Duo doesn't work because it has no ROM (relies on the Duo's built-in Super System Card 3.0).

I believe this is only for the HuCard dumping function.  You just need to choose the setting if you're dumping that particular card.  Earlier firmwares couldn't dump Street Fighter II', but after a firmware update, that card was added as an option in the menu.

QuoteWhen they unveiled the CD-ROM^2 ODE function they said that the memory card was "MMC." There is some compatibility between SD and MMC, so hopefully they weren't saying that the feature requires MMC like a Nokia nGage.

Not sure on this one.  I think they meant MMC or similar cards in a roundabout way of saying SD/MMC.  Won't know for sure until the new version is released I suppose.

QuoteThere is some mention of CD-ROM^2 compatibility with the UGX-01 being improved with future updates, which implies that it was working on the original version in some form. Perhaps it just doesn't have great compatibility? I saw numbers like 70% and 80% compatibility. Even on real hardware some CD-ROM titles that stream FMV from the disc can have problems when the drive reads too slow or two fast. They brag that it loads faster from SD so I wonder if that is the issue.

The internal memory card function allows you to backup to PC.

It looks like the old version's SD-slot was not installed though the casing still had a hole for it. Guess it wasn't fully populated for the feature as they claim!

This is what I've gleaned so far.

Their twitter feed has a link to a spreadsheet detailing the compatibility of various games.  It was around 100 games when I looked at it, but I'm sure there's more by now.

IMO, the Upergrafx is lacking compared to the SD System3.  However, it's my impression that the UperGrafx was intended to only replace the CD-ROM and IFU-30 units.  That's why it doesn't run HuCard images, you still need System Cards and/or Arcade Cards for those games to work, etc.  Running CD images seems pretty cumbersome too, from reading their website.

I'd be happy if there was a simple way of getting digital output using the UperGrafx with CD/IFU-30 or SCD hardware. 

- akamichi

Quote from: akamichi on 12/30/2017, 02:01 AMI have an UperGrafx (UGX-01:  no CDROM or SD version) and I think it works well for what it does.  I've played around with pretty much every function and if anyone has any questions, I'll try to answer as best as I can.  Just remember, I'm no expert in video signals or anything like that. :P

Quote from: CZroe on 12/29/2017, 04:13 PMWell, digging further through the Google Translate English version of their Japanese pages with a proper PC, I get some additional info, though some seems contradictory.

Though the English site says that all the hardware for CD-ROM^2 functionality is present/populated, the Japanese site presents the function as a new feature for the UGX-02 hardware (original is UGX-01). Some statements seem to imply that the UGX-01 CAN run CD-ROM titles, and it isn't listed in the short list of differences. Perhaps they both have it but compatibility is different? They mention the possibility of renovating/retrofitting the old ones but they have not offered/priced the service yet. The changes seem to be minor stuff, like the ability to update without a PC, slightly different port positions, double the internal SRAM (2Mbit to 4Mbit) even though it doesn't currently utilize the extra 2Mbits for anything, and it uses a standard sized SD card (as opposed to microSD?).

My understanding is the UGX-01 can be upgraded to support CD-ROM titles but will cost extra for this service.  There is no SD card slot on the board, so I'm thinking it might be as simple as soldering one on there and updating the firmware (I hope!).

QuoteThey added HuCard/TurboChip dumping to both as an "unofficial" function. Neat!

This is probably my most used function of this device.  It's not perfect, but it works. 

QuoteIt can dump the framebuffer to your PC as a PNG file. That's why the screen freezes when you press the button. Jason/GameTechUS couldn't figure out what that was for but now it's clearly so that you can see if you got the frame you want before dumping the frame buffer to the PC.

This is nice to have, but it'd be easier to do this in an emulator.  The screen does blank when you take a screenshot... I think the game freezes momentarily too.

QuoteThere is some kind of setting where you choose your System Card type. It does not have a separate setting for Arcade Card and Super System Card 3.0 because they use the same ROM. The way they word it makes it seem like you might be able to run Arcade Card titles with a Super System Card but probably not. You definitely need a card of some kind inserted and the Arcade Card Duo doesn't work because it has no ROM (relies on the Duo's built-in Super System Card 3.0).

I believe this is only for the HuCard dumping function.  You just need to choose the setting if you're dumping that particular card.  Earlier firmwares couldn't dump Street Fighter II', but after a firmware update, that card was added as an option in the menu.

QuoteWhen they unveiled the CD-ROM^2 ODE function they said that the memory card was "MMC." There is some compatibility between SD and MMC, so hopefully they weren't saying that the feature requires MMC like a Nokia nGage.

Not sure on this one.  I think they meant MMC or similar cards in a roundabout way of saying SD/MMC.  Won't know for sure until the new version is released I suppose.

QuoteThere is some mention of CD-ROM^2 compatibility with the UGX-01 being improved with future updates, which implies that it was working on the original version in some form. Perhaps it just doesn't have great compatibility? I saw numbers like 70% and 80% compatibility. Even on real hardware some CD-ROM titles that stream FMV from the disc can have problems when the drive reads too slow or two fast. They brag that it loads faster from SD so I wonder if that is the issue.

The internal memory card function allows you to backup to PC.

It looks like the old version's SD-slot was not installed though the casing still had a hole for it. Guess it wasn't fully populated for the feature as they claim!

This is what I've gleaned so far.

Their twitter feed has a link to a spreadsheet detailing the compatibility of various games.  It was around 100 games when I looked at it, but I'm sure there's more by now.

IMO, the Upergrafx is lacking compared to the SD System3.  However, it's my impression that the UperGrafx was intended to only replace the CD-ROM and IFU-30 units.  That's why it doesn't run HuCard images, you still need System Cards and/or Arcade Cards for those games to work, etc.  Running CD images seems pretty cumbersome too, from reading their website.

I'd be happy if there was a simple way of getting digital output using the UperGrafx with CD/IFU-30 or SCD hardware. 

- akamichi

Thanks! This clarifies a lot. Do the analog outputs (RF or multi-out) still work while using it?

Quote from: CZroe on 12/29/2017, 01:38 AMUnfortunately it wasn't generally available in your average TV until we were on the verge of component with the popularity of DVD players but it was available first and all the way up to the advent of digital inputs, making it's useful life a bit longer before DVI/HDMI displaces both... and that's when all the best CRTs were being made. XBOX 360 and Wii were still component only and a lot of people were using it for DVD players so it died a slow death.

Quote from: MobiusStripTech on 12/29/2017, 02:56 AMI'm not saying s-video as a standard wasn't around. The issue was availability. As you said the 4pin mini-DIN, which was introduced later is the more common one people are aware of. The problem was that it wasn't included on most consumer grade products until as CZroe said, component was becoming readily available. I used s-video for years and never touched component because my s-video looked great. But I wasn't your average consumer. I actually owned a SVHS player, which did use s-video.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  Growing up we didn't have big or expensive tv sets, and both my parents main living room set, and then one I used odd job birthday etc money to buy both had S-Video on them.  This was like the late 80s early 90s, while component wouldn't really show up till 10 years later. I would bet its easier to find an SD CRT with S-Video than one with component.  My friend is going through that right now, he wants a back up SD CRT with component in and having a hard time finding one.

Quote from: Johnpv on 12/30/2017, 11:04 AM

Quote from: CZroe on 12/29/2017, 01:38 AMUnfortunately it wasn't generally available in your average TV until we were on the verge of component with the popularity of DVD players but it was available first and all the way up to the advent of digital inputs, making it's useful life a bit longer before DVI/HDMI displaces both... and that's when all the best CRTs were being made. XBOX 360 and Wii were still component only and a lot of people were using it for DVD players so it died a slow death.

Quote from: MobiusStripTech on 12/29/2017, 02:56 AMI'm not saying s-video as a standard wasn't around. The issue was availability. As you said the 4pin mini-DIN, which was introduced later is the more common one people are aware of. The problem was that it wasn't included on most consumer grade products until as CZroe said, component was becoming readily available. I used s-video for years and never touched component because my s-video looked great. But I wasn't your average consumer. I actually owned a SVHS player, which did use s-video.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  Growing up we didn't have big or expensive tv sets, and both my parents main living room set, and then one I used odd job birthday etc money to buy both had S-Video on them.  This was like the late 80s early 90s, while component wouldn't really show up till 10 years later. I would bet its easier to find an SD CRT with S-Video than one with component.  My friend is going through that right now, he wants a back up SD CRT with component in and having a hard time finding one.

It is, but that's because DVD players had both which finally convinced TV makers to start including them both on the lower-end models. We don't disagree: I also said that the useful life of S-video before the advent of digital inputs was a little bit longer than component.

Before that it was mostly old computer monitors that didn't conform to the final spec and higher-end home TVs. It was very tough to just encounter in the wild because very few mainstream TVs had it. Several years ago I found a Sony XBR produced in 1991 that had it but that definitely wasn't mainstream in 1991. I *always* looked for it on every TV I touched. In all the years of taking my SNES to other people's homes, I only ever saw an S-video connector on one ONCE before 1995. Even then, until 1998 it was mostly on stuff like the JAM! VGA adapter, the Samsung GX gaming TV, and my ATI All-in-Wonder. In late 1996 my twin brother and I installed nearly 200 Zenith Concierge-series TVs in a hotel when we were teenagers and we couldn't resist sneaking in our new N64 in just to try it out in S-video! When a friend got a fancy big screen TV with S-video in 1998 I recall that we couldn't get S-video to work from my Sigma Designs RealMagic Hollywood+ DVD decoder and we ended up having to watch The Prince of Egypt with composite running through his VCR (can't believe it's still not on BD). It was triggering Macrovision and composite didn't work directly into the TV either.

I recall seeing the connector back then on 3DO and LaserDisc players, but the SNES was probably the most prolific S-video capable device back in its days. Unfortunately the proprietary cables practically didn't exist. I've heard of people obtaining them in retail packaging straight from Nintendo with claims that they were never sold at retail but I did see them at Babbages in early 1994. Heck, half the TVs sold were still RF-only back when the SNES launched. I check every single VCR I see in thrift stores several times a week and in 13 years I have only found two S-video capable VCRs...
...and they were together...
...in a component rack...
...with professional video production equipment...
...and restrictive "not for consumer use" labeling.
Those are the same VCRs I still have today. :) I was thousands of miles away from home too so I had to ditch stuff to fit them in my luggage. They are both Panasonic but one has a ton of extra controls, like it is some kind of video editor that controls the secondary one.

I got my GC component cables as soon as I got a 30" Samsung 16:9 CRT. I promptly returned that TV for an XBR910 because the Sammy would force 4:3 content to 16:9 in progressive scam mode and I only wanted it to play my progressive scan XBOX and GameCube games (not much "HD" content back then). Even on my XBR910, S-video looked better due to scan lines increasing the perceived detail (brain interpolates detail in the scanline areas). The tiny squirrel on the title screen to 1080 Avalanche actually looked like a squirrel with S-video. It was almost imperceptibly different from 480i over component, but enabling 480p over component instantly made it look like a tiny blob of pixels. I knew that 480p had more "real" detail, but the squirrel just looked that much better with S-video.

Now, even though it was a CRT, that was the TV's image processor choosing to eliminate scan lines on a 480p source (it was a native 1080-line set). Nothing I could do about it, but I can with things like UltraHDMI, Hi-Def NES, and UperGrafx. It's unfortunate that compatibility with retro digital video mods is so poor with these HD Trinitrons. Even that old TV had DVI and the XBR960 added HDMI. I've got other HD Trinitrons with HDMI and DVI also, and the best option for many of them is still S-video or component. It's pretty clear to me why someone here might want to add both of those if they are going through the trouble to RGB mod a system. Is a Neo Geo MVS truly consolized when it essentially still requires an arcade monitor to use it? IMO: NOPE. Better add that composite, S-video, and component encoder while you're at it!

QuoteThanks! This clarifies a lot. Do the analog outputs (RF or multi-out) still work while using it?

Yes.  I haven't tried RF, but you can still use the AV out simultaneously with the UperGrafx.  So you can output Digtial and Analog video and three sources of audio (via DVI, Line out on UperGrafx, and via AV out) all at the same time.

- akamichi

NEU!!!!!!!

wayback.upergrafx.com/ugx02_ja (https://web.archive.org/web/20170829061624if_/http://www.upergrafx.com/ugx02_ja)

(https://web.archive.org/web/20210828043850im_/http://www.upergrafx.com/ugx02_ja/ugx02.jpg)

Quote from: Digi.k on 01/30/2018, 04:04 AMNEU!!!!!!!

http://www.upergrafx.com/ugx02_ja (https://web.archive.org/web/20170829061624if_/http://www.upergrafx.com/ugx02_ja)

(https://web.archive.org/web/20210828043850im_/http://www.upergrafx.com/ugx02_ja/ugx02.jpg)

I want this, especially now that the Super SD System 3 creators and supporters consider video purists to be pariahs and express disdain for anyone who cares about it.

Quote from: CZroe on 01/30/2018, 12:42 PM

Quote from: Digi.k on 01/30/2018, 04:04 AMNEU!!!!!!!
http://www.upergrafx.com/ugx02_ja (https://web.archive.org/web/20170829061624if_/http://www.upergrafx.com/ugx02_ja)
(https://web.archive.org/web/20210828043850im_/http://www.upergrafx.com/ugx02_ja/ugx02.jpg)

I want this, especially now that the Super SD System 3 creators and supporters consider video purists to be pariahs and express disdain for anyone who cares about it.

If you sign up to the neo-geo.com forums you can read their statement about video/audio in the dedicated thread in their dedicated section. They apologized and completely agree with the video purists and worked with some of the experts who understood the situation better than most of the people complaining as well as Terra Onion themselves. They've fixed the RGB and audio and the new model will work perfectly with a standard Genesis csync cable.

They're recalling the shipped units and the new model is now the standard.

No reason to punish yourself because of random thread out of context.

I don't know about them "completely agreeing" with the problem:

QuoteYes, the units to my own point of view are not faulty units.  This is what really upsets me, to destroy a production batch cause the image could be better.  Cause lets face it, the videos are there and the image is not terrible as those guys said it was.

Quote from: guest on 01/30/2018, 01:43 PM

Quote from: CZroe on 01/30/2018, 12:42 PM

Quote from: Digi.k on 01/30/2018, 04:04 AMNEU!!!!!!!
http://www.upergrafx.com/ugx02_ja (https://web.archive.org/web/20170829061624if_/http://www.upergrafx.com/ugx02_ja)
(https://web.archive.org/web/20210828043850im_/http://www.upergrafx.com/ugx02_ja/ugx02.jpg)

I want this, especially now that the Super SD System 3 creators and supporters consider video purists to be pariahs and express disdain for anyone who cares about it.

If you sign up to the neo-geo.com forums you can read their statement about video/audio in the dedicated thread in their dedicated section. They apologized and completely agree with the video purists and worked with some of the experts who understood the situation better than most of the people complaining as well as Terra Onion themselves. They've fixed the RGB and audio and the new model will work perfectly with a standard Genesis csync cable.

They're recalling the shipped units and the new model is now the standard.

No reason to punish yourself because of random thread out of context.

Oh, I read every word of it along with every word prior and every word following. If you did too then I must say that either you believed everything they said without looking into it or you must live on a different planet. I can't actually blame you because the moderation there will not allow anyone to tell you the reality of the situation.

Here's the thing: I actually didn't care about the RGB issues and would have bought it with or without them acknowledging the problem and offering to fix it but I can't possibly do that after seeing what they did/said AFTER their statement and proposed resolution. That's right: They lost my business AFTER acknowledging the problem and agreeing to resolve it. Not before.

Why ? Because they continued to place the blame for the entire debacle on a Good Samaritan and relentlessly rallied everyone against a completely innocent man. Not only was this man completely blameless, but he was willing to help and could have saved them thousands of Euros if they had responded differently. He had nothing to do with the resulting debacle. He is their scapegoat.

I implore you to actually look at the three or four RetroRGB weekly updates where Bob discusses SSDSys3. Time codes are in the descriptions.
Bob never called it a disaster.
He never told people to demand refunds.
He never asked for a free unit.

They made all these claims repeatedly and continue spreading these lies. Meanwhile, on Planet Earth (reality):
Bob was supportive.
Bob was enthusiastic.
Bob was sympathetic.

Even when confronted with a screenshot clearly showing that he only asked to borrow one, they doubled-down on the claim and further riled up the community against it. They claimed that "borrowed" was code for "free" because no one borrows a review unit and companies can't use he returned units, ignoring that reviewers and producers actually do this all the time. Not only has Bob done this numerous times, he went on to arrange it with another member here who enthusiastically ordered it within 15 minutes of it going on sale.

Voultar is the one they thanked for helping even though MobiusStripTech tried to help too. But get this: Bob was offering the exact same help as Voultar before release. They are closely associated, you know. Bob has been nothing but supportive and sympathetic to their project. They viciously continued attacking him and blaming him and even had the nerve to complain that he sold his own personal NeoSD without reviewing it. News flash: People are allowed to sell their stuff. He paid for that with his own money and planned to get another for a future comparison. He had no obligation and it wasn't even related to his field of expertise (video).

Even GadgetUK had to bite his tongue when calling them out in this. Unless Terra Onion admits that they were wrong to attack him and apologize, I will not buy a SSDSys3.

What they did is the exact opposite of gracefully acknowledging the problem and offering a resolution and yet people keep talking about how "professional" they're being. I must live on a different planet.

I'm no RGB purist. I don't even have an RGB-capable display (yet), but as soon as I saw Terra Onion and GadgetUK's videos on YouTube in December even I immediately had questions about the Gen/MD 2 cable because I knew that the consoles did not output standard RGB and that you needed different cables depending on your mod.

Making it to spec with whatever cables they had around does not surprise me. Again, I planned to buy it anyway. My issue is with them taking an upstanding community member and taking him over the coals unjustly.

Quote from: CZroe on 01/30/2018, 02:11 PMa completely innocent Good Samaritan who could have saved them thousands of Euros if they had responded differently and has nothing to do with the resulting debacle.

I implore you to actually look at the three or four RetroRGB weekly updates where Bob discusses SSDSys3. Time codes are in the descriptions.
Bob never called it a disaster.
He never told people to demand refunds.
He never asked for a free unit.
Bob was supportive.
Bob was enthusiastic.
Bob was sympathetic.

Even when confronted with a screenshot clearly showing that he only asked to borrow one, they doubled-down on the claim and further riled up the community against it. They claimed that "borrowed" was code for "free" because no one borrows a review unit and companies can't use the returned units, ignoring that reviewers and producers actually do this all the time. Not only has Bob done this numerous times, he went on to arrange it with another member here who enthusiastically ordered it within 15 minutes of it going on sale.

Bob was offering the exact same help as Voultar before release. They are associated, you know. Bob has been nothing but supportive and sympathetic to their project. They viciously continued attacking him and blaming him and even had the nerve to complain that he sold his own personal NeoSD without reviewing it. News flash: People are allowed to sell their stuff. He paid for that with his own money and planned to get another for a future comparison. He had no obligation and it wasn't even related to his field of expertise (video).

Not that I am condemning you, but your whole reasoning for boycotting a project is because a Youtube personality was attacked wrongly in your opinion ?   He was criticizing their product . . . of course there is a large area here where misunderstandings could enter the equation. 

If your such a fan of bob as you stated, than should you not like him should realize this and continue to support the project and understand these thing happen????   It is not a matter of absolving the team of wrong doing but rather of understanding, and accepting that humans are imperfect.  holding them accountable is one thing and a good thing! But holding grudges doesn't seem like a healthy lifestyle.

Sorry, just seemed a bit hypocritical and maybe I am being a bit dense?

Resume back to the normal drama filled posts.

Quote from: CZroe on 01/30/2018, 02:11 PM...That's right: They lost my business AFTER acknowledging the problem and agreeing to resolve it. Not before

Congrats

Also, that's a LOT of words to say, "I don't really know what I am talking about and I don't have one, nor am I buying one and I don't even have an RGB monitor"

Quote from: turboswimbz on 01/30/2018, 02:39 PMNot that I am condemning you, but your whole reasoning for boycotting a project is because a Youtube personality was attacked wrongly in your opinion?   He was criticizing their product . . . of course there is a large area here where misunderstandings could enter the equation.

If only that was all there was to it. No, Bob got thrown under the bus so that they could dismiss EVERYONE who cared about it and turn their supporters against anyone who even mentioned video concerns even though those weren't the only concerns. Just look at the hate being spewed there toward anyone who has any problem what-so-ever. Just look at what happens to anyone who actually tries to correct the record. People are being PUNISHED for having problems with it. I get that they needed a launch partner for the NeoSD but they REALLY need their own support forums. NGF is just too protective and hostile to newcomers and that's exactly what a support forum will bring.

Now, you say that Bob was criticizing their product. I ask you to please take 30 minutes of your time to look through the weekly podcasts from Dec and Jan. Bob runs a channel and website focused on RGB and he commented on the RGB concerns his audience would have while remaining supportive the entire time.

Quote from: turboswimbz on 01/30/2018, 02:39 PMIf your such a fan of bob as you stated, than should you not like him should realize this and continue to support the project and understand these thing happen????   It is not a matter of absolving the team of wrong doing but rather of understanding, and accepting that humans are imperfect.  holding them accountable is one thing and a good thing! But holding grudges doesn't seem like a healthy lifestyle.

Sorry, just seemed a bit hypocritical and maybe I am being a bit dense?

Resume back to the normal drama filled posts.

It's not that I'm a "fan of Bob." I watch for the community news and I don't even have an RGB-capable display. Bob doesn't tell me what to think. I'm a first-hand witness to Bob's horrible mistreatment from the community at the hands of Terra Onion and their followers. I'd say that Terra Onion are only responsible for their own actions except that they definitely fanned these flames. Provoked it. Every post there condemning Bob and accusing anyone with concerns of being Bob's minion is 100% their doing even when it was posted by someone else.

It's premature to say that Bob continues to support it after their attack because he hasn't made an update since they acknowledged the issues and blamed him. I'd get right back on board if they made an apology or at least dialed it back ("maybe we were wrong"). I don't see that happening if you aren't even allowed to tell them that borrowing for reviews is routine and the Bob never called it a "disaster." GadgetUK tried to tell them about the misunderstanding and even he fell on deaf ears (anyone else would have been banned).

"Grudge?" I'm serious that I'd still buy one if they apologized. I remain excited for the future products Terra Onion has hinted at but I will not join the "oh how PROFESSIONAL of them" bandwagon when it's the exact opposite. SSDSys3 is not the only game in town, as this thread demonstrates.

Quote from: pixeljunkie on 01/30/2018, 03:05 PM

Quote from: CZroe on 01/30/2018, 02:11 PM...That's right: They lost my business AFTER acknowledging the problem and agreeing to resolve it. Not before

Congrats

Also, that's a LOT of words to say, "I don't really know what I am talking about and I don't have one, nor am I buying one and I don't even have an RGB monitor"

I know exactly what I'm talking about and read every word of every post on NGF. I went further and listened to every word uttered by RetroRGB on the subject. I followed up every tweet linked. I read the entire Shmups thread where they are present as "NeoSD." I communicated directly with another owner/technician and knew exactly what was wrong before they announced it (using a digital ground plane for analog outputs). I know the situation inside and out.

My point about RGB is that my decision has nothing to do with it and everything to do with what they did to concerned people who only wanted to help (Bob and countless people banned from NGF). It seems that even that was lost on you.

You don't have to do all the work I did. Just watch those few RetroRGB segments yourself. Try to find where Bob called is a "disaster." Try to find where Bob encouraged angry users to demand refunds. Try to find where Bob did any of the things they accuse him of doing. They fabricated this story so that they could mischaracterize anyone who comes to them with a problem as being one of Bob's minions so that they can dismiss them. Attacking him for selling his own NeoSD after he lost is job is just despicable. After you watch those videos, skim through the statement thread on NeoSD again and tell me that the reactions to RetroRGB aren't over the top and entirely inexcusable.

yeah, I responded before you edited some stuff around.  I agree with your edit version more than the original.  I also didn't mean to say he directly said to his audience that "This is bad"  but he did say "you guys know this may have problems"  That's paraphrased of course.

What I was getting at is what you're saying that the forum post was then easily turned around as the TO guys felt they were being attacked even though that wasn't the case.

I feel that yes you are right that they were not 100% professional about the situation in that regard, but I do feel that are at least better off than a lot of other items/games/projects I've seen and it's not fair to say CrackTiger is some sort of crazy person for suggesting that they are in fact handling some aspects well. (although I agree with you and NecroPhile's post in saying that they were not 100 upfront on it, and to some degree believed that the issues were not their fault)

Grudge is probably strong . . . I am saying that this all boils down to internet drama for me, the guys at TO will fix the stuff and RBG will move on. and it may be worth buying one after it all sorts out.

Quote from: turboswimbz on 01/30/2018, 11:47 PMyeah, I responded before you edited some stuff around.  I agree with your edit version more than the original.  I also didn't mean to say he directly said to his audience that "This is bad"  but he did say "you guys know this may have problems"  That's paraphrased of course.

What I was getting at is what you're saying that the forum post was then easily turned around as the TO guys felt they were being attacked even though that wasn't the case.

I feel that yes you are right that they were not 100% professional about the situation in that regard, but I do feel that are at least better off than a lot of other items/games/projects I've seen and it's not fair to say CrackTiger is some sort of crazy person for suggesting that they are in fact handling some aspects well. (although I agree with you and NecroPhile's post in saying that they were not 100 upfront on it, and to some degree believed that the issues were not their fault)

Grudge is probably strong . . . I am saying that this all boils down to internet drama for me, the guys at TO will fix the stuff and RBG will move on. and it may be worth buying one after it all sorts out.

Thanks.

Considering that Bob was talking from the perspective of an RGB purist to an audience of RGB purists about predictable RGB purist concerns, I have to say that it's pretty unfair to fault him for saying "that there may be problems..." especially when he was absolutely right. Actually, it's more accurate to paraphrase it as him saying "we don't know" about certain predictable concerns dealing with Gen/MD2 cables. If anything, he had a duty to remind them of those concerns and seek/share further details. That's exactly what he did while remaining supportive and encouraging anyone who didn't care about that to buy it.

They were concerns that were so predictable that I was already wondering about them before Bob ever said a word... likely even before he was aware that it existed. His statements were not negative and only made things better for everyone, including Terra Onion (fewer of the RGB purist buyers they resent rushing to buy/return it). Bob was specific about what kind of problems there might be and he hit the nail on the head. If it weren't for him then an even bigger portion of their initial buyers would be upset.

They accuse him of criticizing it without having one or knowing anything about it but, as I explained above, that wasn't what he was doing at all. He pointed out what we needed to know first and cautioned us to wait for details. He reached out for those details and he shared the details he had as they came through. There's absolutely no way that saying "we don't know yet" counts as unfairly criticizing it without seeing it. Explaining the concerns with the details we did receive is entirely fair. Everything was full-disclosure.

It ultimately had exactly the problems he and his audience would be concerned with, completely vindicating any words of caution. It would be wrong of him to be aware of those concerns/potential problems/details relevant to that audience and NOT to mention them when sharing the news. They don't seem to realize that his audience was already one of picky RGB purists before their product existed and that his comments did not suddenly make them care. They already cared. He's not some figurehead that turned everyone against them.

I wasn't implying that CrackTiger lives on another planet to think what he thought so I wasn't calling him a "crazy person." The "other planet" comment was one of two options and it was used to strongly imply the other one: that he got that impression from TerraOnion's current echo chamber on NGF, which is where he was inviting me to read. I wanted him to know just how thoroughly I dug into that so he would realize that there is a lot more to it than what you find there. There is a reason you'd have that impression if that was your primary source of info on this drama.

TD is committed to resolve the issue. I will most definitely buy one when resolved.

Well, I certainly think that partnering with the Neo-Geo.com forums is a PR disaster.

Quote from: soop on 01/31/2018, 09:51 AMWell I certainly think that partnering with the NeoGeo forums is a PR disaster.

LOL yeah pretty much.

Looking forward to the Retro Roundtable podcast to hear all the dramamas on this with multiple voices.

Quote from: soop on 01/31/2018, 09:51 AMWell I certainly think that partnering with the NeoGeo forums is a PR disaster.

I will 3rd this.

Quote from: Johnpv on 01/31/2018, 10:58 AM

Quote from: soop on 01/31/2018, 09:51 AMWell I certainly think that partnering with the NeoGeo forums is a PR disaster.

I will 3rd this.

Hahaha!!!! Well, I can't argue otherwise... Not just the over or under modding (letting KKKFarms doxxing dildos like Psycho Dox Shroom/Filthrear roam free!!!), I was also turned off by NeoSD being thin-skinned about this Japanese competitor product right here.

My post was deleted to prevent other PCE fans from finding out about UperGrafx in his thread when somebody asked about digital HDMI output.. I can understand arguments for the protectionism, but I was a little surprised they wanted to quickly squash any compare/contrast detour for those hoping for HDMI options some day... Way too sensitive for me.

If I'm gonna shill, it's gonna be for ALL PCE fans to know all options on the table before spending cash and not just help him maximize sales for a video analog-only output model. You can find his post to me, how defensive he got, dismissing this device as a "dream" and boasting how much better his is, etc.

For me, I'm more excited about a HDMI model and it tripling the resolution to 720p. I've thrown out or donated to friends most of my old CRT boob tubes. I'm still keeping my 32" Panasonic with YPbPr, but I'm very happy with LG 4K panels, love what they're doing, and I think this device is better future-proofing for US gamers.

SSD3 didn't go for that final touch to supply YPbPr/Component output for most US TV sets, it's geared to Europe in the RGB regard. Even then, a % of YPbPr TV sets need you to double the resolution to 480p or it won't work and you'll have to switch down to crappy Composite (they always still take 240p in Composite jack).

Anyway, they're both great products and I look forward to seeing how much these teams advance. Just making my preference known.

I'd also want HDMI.  While my current TV has inputs for pretty much anything, many new TVs have nothing but HDMI.

Them deleting your post sadly doesn't surprise me.  It'd be one thing if you went on and on about how awesome upergrafx is and how the SSD3 sucks, but just one post in response to someone asking about HDMI?  That's dumb.  Nobody should fear competition, especially not when your product is better in most ways: cheaper, built in arcade card, and plays roms.

Quote from: NightWolve on 02/01/2018, 08:12 PM

Quote from: Johnpv on 01/31/2018, 10:58 AM

Quote from: soop on 01/31/2018, 09:51 AMWell I certainly think that partnering with the NeoGeo forums is a PR disaster.

I will 3rd this.

Hahaha!!!! Well, I can't argue otherwise... Not just the over modding, I was also turned off by NeoSD being thin-skinned about this Japanese competitor product right here.

My post was deleted to prevent other PCE fans from finding out about UperGrafx in his thread when somebody asked about digital HDMI output.. I can understand arguments for the protectionism, but I was a little surprised they wanted to quickly squash any compare/contrast detour for those hoping for HDMI options some day... Way too sensitive for me.

If I'm gonna shill, it's gonna be for ALL PCE fans to know all options on the table before spending cash and not just help him maximize sales for a video analog-only output model. You can find his post to me, how defensive he got, dismissing this device as a "dream" and boasting how much better his is, etc.

For me, I'm more excited about a HDMI model and it tripling the resolution to 720p. I've thrown out or donated to friends most of my old CRT boob tubes. I'm still keeping my 32" Panasonic with YPbPr, but I'm very happy with LG 4K panels, love what they're doing, and I think this device is better future-proofing for US gamers.

SSD3 didn't go for that final touch to supply YPbPr/Component output for most US TV sets, it's geared to Europe in the RGB regard. Even then, a % of YPbPr TV sets need you to double the resolution to 480p or it won't work and you'll have to switch down to crappy Composite (they always still take 240p in Composite jack).

Anyway, they're both great products and I look forward to seeing how much these teams advance. Just making my preference known.

Thanks. After I stumbled on their Japanese page and noticed this back in December I've been trying to spread the word. People need to know that there is a video purist option!

FWIW, 720p will integer-scale to 4K. If you disable your TV's image processing (overscan simulation, motion interpolation, etc) you should get perfectly sharp pixels with no in-betweeners!

I've been doing Hi-Def NES and UltraHDMI installs and 720p is the recommended setting for 4K televisions.

Quote from: CZroe on 02/02/2018, 10:02 AM

Quote from: NightWolve on 02/01/2018, 08:12 PM

Quote from: Johnpv on 01/31/2018, 10:58 AM

Quote from: soop on 01/31/2018, 09:51 AMWell I certainly think that partnering with the NeoGeo forums is a PR disaster.

I will 3rd this.

Hahaha!!!! Well, I can't argue otherwise... Not just the over modding, I was also turned off by NeoSD being thin-skinned about this Japanese competitor product right here.

My post was deleted to prevent other PCE fans from finding out about UperGrafx in his thread when somebody asked about digital HDMI output.. I can understand arguments for the protectionism, but I was a little surprised they wanted to quickly squash any compare/contrast detour for those hoping for HDMI options some day... Way too sensitive for me.

If I'm gonna shill, it's gonna be for ALL PCE fans to know all options on the table before spending cash and not just help him maximize sales for a video analog-only output model. You can find his post to me, how defensive he got, dismissing this device as a "dream" and boasting how much better his is, etc.

For me, I'm more excited about a HDMI model and it tripling the resolution to 720p. I've thrown out or donated to friends most of my old CRT boob tubes. I'm still keeping my 32" Panasonic with YPbPr, but I'm very happy with LG 4K panels, love what they're doing, and I think this device is better future-proofing for US gamers.

SSD3 didn't go for that final touch to supply YPbPr/Component output for most US TV sets, it's geared to Europe in the RGB regard. Even then, a % of YPbPr TV sets need you to double the resolution to 480p or it won't work and you'll have to switch down to crappy Composite (they always still take 240p in Composite jack).

Anyway, they're both great products and I look forward to seeing how much these teams advance. Just making my preference known.

Thanks. After I stumbled on their Japanese page and noticed this back in December I've been trying to spread the word. People need to know that there is a video purist option!

FWIW, 720p will integer-scale to 4K. If you disable your TV's image processing (overscan simulation, motion interpolation, etc) you should get perfectly sharp pixels with no in-betweeners!

I've been doing Hi-Def NES and UltraHDMI installs and 720p is the recommended setting for 4K televisions.

Can you point me to a good place where I can see the 720P/4k with no in-betweeners. I've been looking for different options for my systems.

Quote from: NightWolve on 02/01/2018, 08:12 PMSSD3 didn't go for that final touch to supply YPbPr/Component output for most US TV sets, it's geared to Europe in the RGB regard. Even then, a % of YPbPr TV sets need you to double the resolution to 480p or it won't work and you'll have to switch down to crappy Composite (they always still take 240p in Composite jack).

Anyway, they're both great products and I look forward to seeing how much these teams advance. Just making my preference known.

I agree, it would have been nice if they went the extra mile. I suspect that most people who use RGB mods have upscalers already, so it won't be as bad a hit to them.

In regards to the UperGrafx, it looks like an interesting device but I feel (in my opinion) that it's still kind of premature. I'm not sure if they were able to address the frame rate issues (judder) and from what I read about version 2, it seems like preparing CD-ROM games is quite involved. Specifically because they decided to cut corners on it's implementation (Ie. USB port treated like a serial port, SD card written RAW without file system, proprietary tool to write CD-ROM images to SD card, Odd CD-ROM image support, etc.

Quote from: CZroe on 02/02/2018, 10:02 AMFWIW, 720p will integer-scale to 4K. If you disable your TV's image processing (overscan simulation, motion interpolation, etc) you should get perfectly sharp pixels with no in-betweeners!

I've been doing Hi-Def NES and UltraHDMI installs and 720p is the recommended setting for 4K televisions.

If you're using scanlines, then yeah 720p with better scanlines would be the way to go, but if you're not using scanlines I would say 1080p.  1080p is a 2x integer scale to 4k theoretically it should result in less time processing the image from 720p but that will probably depend from set to set.

One of the nice things about 4k sets is that both 720p and 1080 are integer scales to it.  (1280 x 720 x 3 =  3,840 x 2,160 and 1920 x 1080 x 2 = 3,840 x 2,160)

Plus for those 4k sets that soften the image when they upscale them, you should see less of a softening when going from 1080p vs 720p. 


For those wanting component out of the SD3 thing, the HDRetrovision Genesis model 2 cables will do the trick.

Reading back a few days I see the PR disaster that is the NG forum brought up and they really do suck and take it too far taking digs at innocent new users.

Nightwolve is right, those assholes do erase and doctor plenty of stuff.  I had no idea about the uppergrafx due to those ass clowns erasing that post.  I only learned about it from a space like this, a neutral party that won't protect a fragile baby of a developer and an already destroyed rep about a shady board.  They also love to rip the hell out of that darksoft neo geo kit too considering the creator of that device got into a fight with them over their garbage some years ago too I read.  Not that he's without blame making up stories to sell his unfinished kit either.  At least the Japanese guy with his kit seems to be on the level.

I was going to buy that TO device due to the CD ability along with the memory card, but detested the stock video output.  Uppergrafx though doesn't handle the everdrive end of things, but it does do the rest with HDMI.  I'm right on the fence now of just waiting it out and seeing how things progress while picking up an everdrive instead.  I've gone as far as bulletproofing another of my devices to HDMI and have another setup when I can get the kit to do so.  It just makes more sense as CRT is dead and component/composite more or less is too.

Quote from: turboswimbz on 02/02/2018, 10:07 AM

Quote from: CZroe on 02/02/2018, 10:02 AM

Quote from: NightWolve on 02/01/2018, 08:12 PM

Quote from: Johnpv on 01/31/2018, 10:58 AM

Quote from: soop on 01/31/2018, 09:51 AMWell I certainly think that partnering with the NeoGeo forums is a PR disaster.

I will 3rd this.

Hahaha!!!! Well, I can't argue otherwise... Not just the over modding, I was also turned off by NeoSD being thin-skinned about this Japanese competitor product right here.

My post was deleted to prevent other PCE fans from finding out about UperGrafx in his thread when somebody asked about digital HDMI output.. I can understand arguments for the protectionism, but I was a little surprised they wanted to quickly squash any compare/contrast detour for those hoping for HDMI options some day... Way too sensitive for me.

If I'm gonna shill, it's gonna be for ALL PCE fans to know all options on the table before spending cash and not just help him maximize sales for a video analog-only output model. You can find his post to me, how defensive he got, dismissing this device as a "dream" and boasting how much better his is, etc.

For me, I'm more excited about a HDMI model and it tripling the resolution to 720p. I've thrown out or donated to friends most of my old CRT boob tubes. I'm still keeping my 32" Panasonic with YPbPr, but I'm very happy with LG 4K panels, love what they're doing, and I think this device is better future-proofing for US gamers.

SSD3 didn't go for that final touch to supply YPbPr/Component output for most US TV sets, it's geared to Europe in the RGB regard. Even then, a % of YPbPr TV sets need you to double the resolution to 480p or it won't work and you'll have to switch down to crappy Composite (they always still take 240p in Composite jack).

Anyway, they're both great products and I look forward to seeing how much these teams advance. Just making my preference known.

Thanks. After I stumbled on their Japanese page and noticed this back in December I've been trying to spread the word. People need to know that there is a video purist option!

FWIW, 720p will integer-scale to 4K. If you disable your TV's image processing (overscan simulation, motion interpolation, etc) you should get perfectly sharp pixels with no in-betweeners!

I've been doing Hi-Def NES and UltraHDMI installs and 720p is the recommended setting for 4K televisions.

Can you point me to a good place where I can see the 720P/4k with no in-betweeners. I've been looking for different options for my systems.

I don't have a 4K set but I walked someone through this with a Hi-Def NES as he exchanged close-ups of his display via email I'll see if I can dig those up.

Quote from: Johnpv on 02/02/2018, 10:50 AM

Quote from: CZroe on 02/02/2018, 10:02 AMFWIW, 720p will integer-scale to 4K. If you disable your TV's image processing (overscan simulation, motion interpolation, etc) you should get perfectly sharp pixels with no in-betweeners!

I've been doing Hi-Def NES and UltraHDMI installs and 720p is the recommended setting for 4K televisions.

If you're using scanlines, then yeah 720p with better scanlines would be the way to go, but if you're not using scanlines I would say 1080p.  1080p is a 2x integer scale to 4k theoretically it should result in less time processing the image from 720p but that will probably depend from set to set.

One of the nice things about 4k sets is that both 720p and 1080 are integer scales to it.  (1280 x 720 x 3 =  3,840 x 2,160 and 1920 x 1080 x 2 = 3,840 x 2,160)

Plus for those 4k sets that soften the image when they upscale them, you should see less of a softening when going from 1080p vs 720p. 


For those wanting component out of the SD3 thing, the HDRetrovision Genesis model 2 cables will do the trick.

The problem is that 1080p is a 4.5x (non-integer) scale of 240p. This will either result in rows of blended pixels or alternate rows being thicker than the others. It's the same reason scanlines look bad on 1080p: varying thickness means alternating scanline density. A 5x integer scale of 240p is perfect because it results in 1200p (these displays exist) or cropped 1080p. Don't worry about missing 120 lines because that only translates to 24px of the original 240p image, 12px top and bottom (similar to original CRT overscan). The problem with 5x is that many similar devices don't support it, like Hi-Def NES, for example. Even if it does support it, it may produce 1200p which will not scale perfectly to 4K.

The extra time it takes to scale with a non-integer scale is spent creating blended/interpolated detail instead of just doubling, tripling, quadrupling, etc. It has to assemble, create, and output entire frames at a time to do that which means it needs to buffer. When integer scaling it's possible to duplicate pixels and line-double on the fly without buffering frames. A proper scaling algorithm should scale 720p to 4K with no more delay than 1080p since you're literally just multiplying by 3 instead of 4 with the same frame rate. If the 4K set is cropping the image slightly as most do without digging through hidden/obfuscated settings, you aren't getting an integer scale anyway. :(

HD Retrovision cables will do nicely for the revised SSDSys3, assuming they actually fix the RGB issues that prompted the recall. They seem to resent anyone who even cares about it though, and they already got it wrong once despite publicly expressed concerns before launch, so I wouldn't assume.

Does anyone know what the menu system looks like for the UperGrafx UGX-02? I'm curious as how it compares to the Super SD System 3.

I guess you'd also need a good DVI & RCA to HDMI converter box for UGX-02 to work properly with TV's that don't have RCA in.

I was under the impression there isn't a menu system.

Quote from: broken on 02/23/2018, 05:59 PMI was under the impression there isn't a menu system.

Unless it regressed from the UGX-01, there is, but I have no idea what it's like. I suggest exploring their website with Google Translate.

Hopefully it's better than the UGX-01's 2016 menu:
http://youtu.be/b4baUgr0Ym0 (17:15)

Of course, that menu was for use as a video-only device.

Yeah, was gonna give him that Youtube link too, that's all we got thanks to GameTechUS AFAIK.

https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?msg=511736

ahh, cool. I'll have to check that out.