I know one of the PCE's weakpoints was that 1 background layer that made it difficult to achieve parallax scrolling, but it seems some games were able to do it
like this part of Dracula X http://youtu.be/IV5TvOlKsj4?t=4859s
or this stage of Lords of Thunder http://youtu.be/oGguCcizT6M?t=1704s
how could they do it, while say, ninja gaiden could only achieve a really choppy one?
Ninja gaiden has bad math and stupidity.
Parallax can be done with 1 BG layer. what you're asking is how they faked layers.
You do it with sprites, or you use dynamic, animated background tiles to simulate depth.
QuoteI know one of the PCE's weakpoints was that 1 background layer that made it difficult to achieve parallax scrolling but it seems some games were able to do it
The pce has a pair of registers in the vdc that allows it to offset from the start of a screen. Strip-style parallax (where you have several horizontal strips that move at different speeds) is extremely easy to do.
Quotehow could they do it, while say, ninja gaiden could only achieve a really choppy one?
Don't blame the machine. Blame the programmers.
It's all line scrolls, animated background tiles, sprites by themselves, occasionally the far background color (separate from the 'normal' background layer), or some combination thereof.
In your Dracula X example, most everything is standard strip style parallax with the only things overlapping anything being the columns, which are made of sprites. Also, see Ninja Spirit for a good example of animated tiles; the drawback of this approach is that tiles have square edges, which Ninja Spirit hides by using dark backgrounds and black infill on the foreground tiles with rounded edges.
Games like Ninja Gaiden aren't examples of the machine's limitations. They're just poorly executed and could undoubtedly be done better with more time, bigger roms, better talent (art and programming), etc.
If you want to see the wrong way to do it look at Ninja Gaiden
Quote from: DragonmasterDan on 10/06/2016, 11:52 AMIf you want to see the wrong way to do it look at Ninja Gaiden
This and ys 3
Quote from: sanjo on 10/06/2016, 01:00 AMI know one of the PCE's weakpoints was that 1 background layer that made it difficult to achieve parallax scrolling, but it seems some games were able to do it
like this part of dracula x
http://youtu.be/IV5TvOlKsj4
or this stage of gates of thunder
http://youtu.be/oGguCcizT6M
how could they do it, while say, ninja gaiden could only achieve a really choppy one?
That's a link to Lords of Thunder, not Gate of Thunder.
The PCE can do "parallax" style scrolling just like most 16bit systems; that is to say it divides sections of the background to scroll a different speeds. This can be done up to a single scanline to have the effect of "linescrolls".
What you're referring to is
overlapping parallax. And that's obviously something more complicated to do with only one background. Like others have mentioned, sprites are often used to small overlapping parts.
Just look at the Dracula X example you listed. Everything is made up of a single background layer as different speeds. Only the pillars holding the bridge are overlapping, and they are sprites.
But as you're probably aware, you can only have soo many sprites on a single display line before flicker or blankout happens. There's another technique called dynamic tiles. Lords of Thunder does indeed use them in some places, but definitely not as common as it uses sprites for overlapping parts.
One great example of dynamic tiles in Lords of Thunder, is the sand level wit the giant sand dragon/thing. The sand part is dynamic tiles and allows the dragon's "body" to move back and forth, independent of the multi-scrolling layers of the sand. This is achieved because the sand is a single column of 8x8 blocks, repeated across the screen horizontally. Each 8x8 block in that column is pre-animated to a full left to right rotation.
Dynamic tiles has a restriction on complexity; both size in storage AND the cpu resource to upload each update per frame. On top of that, sprites can be combined with them for an even more convincing effect (the sand Dragon in LoT does this; the head and tops of spikes are sprites).
There is another techniques, but they are limited. But when combined in certain ways - allows more complex scrolling. Back ground color scrolling is one of them (the first stage of Magical Chase), or character scrolling (Ys 3). Character scrolling is definitely rough, but at high speeds it can be very convincing if done right.
Ninja Gaiden on PCE tries to do
character scrolling, but messes it up
really bad. Normally, parallax designed around games designed from the ground up for the system - tends to look really good. Ninja Gaiden on the PCE kind of a budget title. Ignoring the parallax itself, the background tilework/art is actually inferior to the NES one which incorporates depth to the platforms with less tiles than the PCE (the PCE is fairly flat looking - lacking depth in the side view).
Quote from: TurboXray on 10/06/2016, 04:15 PMQuote from: sanjo on 10/06/2016, 01:00 AMI know one of the PCE's weakpoints was that 1 background layer that made it difficult to achieve parallax scrolling, but it seems some games were able to do it
like this part of dracula x
http://youtu.be/IV5TvOlKsj4?t=4859s
or this stage of gates of thunder
http://youtu.be/oGguCcizT6M?t=28m24s
how could they do it, while say, ninja gaiden could only achieve a really choppy one?
That's a link to Lords of Thunder, not Gate of Thunder.
The PCE can do "parallax" style scrolling just like most 16bit systems; that is to say it divides sections of the background to scroll a different speeds. This can be done up to a single scanline to have the effect of "linescrolls".
What you're referring to is overlapping parallax. And that's obviously something more complicated to do with only one background. Like others have mentioned, sprites are often used to small overlapping parts.
Just look at the Dracula X example you listed. Everything is made up of a single background layer as different speeds. Only the pillars holding the bridge are overlapping, and they are sprites.
But as you're probably aware, you can only have soo many sprites on a single display line before flicker or blankout happens. There's another technique called dynamic tiles. Lords of Thunder does indeed use them in some places, but definitely not as common as it uses sprites for overlapping parts.
One great example of dynamic tiles in Lords of Thunder, is the sand level wit the giant sand dragon/thing. The sand part is dynamic tiles and allows the dragon's "body" to move back and forth, independent of the multi-scrolling layers of the sand. This is achieved because the sand is a single column of 8x8 blocks, repeated across the screen horizontally. Each 8x8 block in that column is pre-animated to a full left to right rotation.
Dynamic tiles has a restriction on complexity; both size in storage AND the cpu resource to upload each update per frame. On top of that, sprites can be combined with them for an even more convincing effect (the sand Dragon in LoT does this; the head and tops of spikes are sprites).
There is another techniques, but they are limited. But when combined in certain ways - allows more complex scrolling. Back ground color scrolling is one of them (the first stage of Magical Chase), or character scrolling (Ys 3). Character scrolling is definitely rough, but at high speeds it can be very convincing if done right.
Ninja Gaiden on PCE tries to do character scrolling, but messes it up really bad. Normally, parallax designed around games designed from the ground up for the system - tends to look really good. Ninja Gaiden on the PCE kind of a budget title. Ignoring the parallax itself, the background tilework/art is actually inferior to the NES one which incorporates depth to the platforms with less tiles than the PCE (the PCE is fairly flat looking - lacking depth in the side view).
Thanks a lot for the detailed explanations. it was exactly what I was looking for.
Shame about Ninja Gaiden though. I thought scrolling aside, it looked great. Much better than the SNES remake. Very bright colors, details, and use of shading. Stage 2-2 reminds me of one of the Final Fantasy 6 areas.
I think someone was hacking the Ninja Gaiden rom to kill the scrolling, if I recall, wonder what happened to that?
The Dungeon Explorer opening scene sells overlapping layer parallax very well, can we get a breakdown of how that was achieved? Is it strips of tiles with sprites where it overlaps?
Quote from: Gredler on 10/07/2016, 11:12 AMThe dungeon explorer opening scene sells overlapping layer parallax very well, can we get a breakdown of how that was achieved? Is it strips of tiles with sprites where it overlaps?
Yep.
Quote from: guest on 10/07/2016, 12:23 PMQuote from: Gredler on 10/07/2016, 11:12 AMThe Dungeon Explorer opening scene sells overlapping layer parallax very well, can we get a breakdown of how that was achieved? Is it strips of tiles with sprites where it overlaps?
Yep.
BT with the perfect breakdown.
I forgot about these:
http://youtu.be/Mm4pKt_LE2k
http://youtu.be/PQX8KfYT-zc
The sprites are the chroma ones (green or red). BG layer is black and white.
Quote from: Dicer on 10/07/2016, 01:13 AMI think someone was hacking the Ninja Gaiden rom to kill the scrolling, if I recall, wonder what happened to that?
I hope this is true, the backgrounds, details and color are so much better on the PCE than SNES remake
(https://web.archive.org/web/20101215032806im_/http://hardcoregaming101.net/ninjagaiden/trilogy1-pce-5.png) NinjaGaiden2.jpg
NinjaGaiden3.jpg NinjaGaiden4.jpg
Quote from: sanjo on 10/06/2016, 01:00 AMI know one of the PCE's weakpoints was that 1 background layer that made it difficult to achieve parallax scrolling, but it seems some games were able to do it
Just to randomly add to this thread.
(https://i.imgur.com/ZIYM5Ew.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/OGGR3K6.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/P8wGe4n.gif)
Fanfreakingtastic!!!! Love em! Thanks Digi.k
Cotton
(https://i.imgur.com/iLIDgmv.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/y3quWTQ.gif)
Parodius Da!
(https://i.imgur.com/OjmeVIw.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/6K910d3.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/1X6rpp7.gif) http://youtu.be/ub3ihFS5raI
I need a cold shower.
or a stranger's hand.
Quote from: guest on 01/16/2017, 05:18 AMI need a cold shower.
or a stranger's hand.
(https://web.archive.org/web/20220613064548im_/https://j.gifs.com/g5yPXk.gif)
Dracula X Chi No Rondo
(https://i.imgur.com/jSi3p7V.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/AnjCb6k.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/FgwXJd3.gif)
Do Atlantean, Do Atlantean! lol
(https://i.imgur.com/z07Vyox.gif)
haha. That game sucks.
Do Santalantean, Do Santalantean! lol
Those gifs are beautiful!
The encoding makes them appear to have "scanlines" from a CRT.
This thread needs more Genpei Toma Den.
MagicalChase.gif (https://i.imgur.com/oVC7SXC.gif)
https://i.imgur.com/pnm1fKD.gif
https://i.imgur.com/WnyhUAp.gif
(https://i.imgur.com/DufOEbl.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/cX79wjV.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/8sybqMb.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/KNe5xjN.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/coJImQj.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/2XHfPG0.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/Kxd27zU.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/D2UAoI9.gif)
Quote from: Digi.k on 03/23/2017, 10:09 AM(https://i.imgur.com/coJImQj.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/2XHfPG0.gif)
This is a nice example!
(https://i.imgur.com/VKhxkY9.gif)
COMPUTER MAGIC!
There are NES games with multiple layers of parallax. If the NES can do it, the PCE most certainly can.
And also the mighty NeoGeo only has one background as well.
Quote from: SuperDeadite on 04/03/2017, 11:40 AMThere are NES games with multiple layers of parallax. If the NES can do it, the PCE most certainly can.
And also the mighty NeoGeo only has one background as well.
Didn't some neo games use raster effects for line scrolling like Operation Ragnarok and Galaxy Fight?
Yes, the Neo-Geo has a single non-scrolling background, used mainly just for score and text display. Everything else is Sprites. It's sprites all the way down.
But apparently, the sprite RAM can be modified mid-screen, allowing for per-scanline scaling & scrolling effects. (As in Ragnarok, intro to Sengoku 2)
Quote from: ccovell on 04/03/2017, 08:43 PMYes, the Neo-Geo has a single non-scrolling background, used mainly just for score and text display. Everything else is Sprites. It's sprites all the way down.
But apparently, the sprite RAM can be modified mid-screen, allowing for per-scanline scaling & scrolling effects. (As in Ragnarok, intro to Sengoku 2)
Which I still think is hilarious. I almost think of the PC-Engine as the 8-bit era's NeoGeo... technically an 8-bit system (like the NeoGeo is technically a 16-bit system), but it's sheer power allowed it to compete with other systems that came much later.
Quote from: fragmare on 04/04/2017, 12:28 PMWhich I still think is hilarious. I almost think of the PC-Engine as the 8-bit era's NeoGeo... technically an 8-bit system (like the NeoGeo is technically a 16-bit system), but it's sheer power allowed it to compete with other systems that came much later.
Oooooo ... you've got to be careful there with bringing "technical" realities into the equation, since that makes the SNES an 8-bit system too, and the Nintendo Fanboys will go wild and attack! :wink:
Quote from: Psycho Arkhan on 01/17/2017, 07:45 AMhaha. That game sucks.
/274830842961221_n.jpg
(https://j.gifs.com/MjnA6A.gif)
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=274830842961221&set=gm.1379666425434464&type=3
Damn.
PCE/TG-16|CD/SGX Discussion => Topic started by: sanjo on 10/06/2016, 01:00 AM