Not so much the button itself, having a dedicated pause and menu button is always good *looks shamefully at the Sega Master System*, but why a word like "Run"? Is it a weird translation? Just an English word that sounded good to the guys at Hudson Soft? Or did NEC use it because home computer people "Run" programs?
(?action=dlattach&topic=22727&attach=7826&image)
Quote from: HuMan on 10/21/2017, 01:33 PMOr did NEC use it because home computer people "Run" programs?
That would be my guess... But I'll let the experts here at the forum tell me otherwise if that's not the case...
Train lingo.
Quote from: Michirin9801 on 10/21/2017, 02:08 PMQuote from: HuMan on 10/21/2017, 01:33 PMOr did NEC use it because home computer people "Run" programs?
That would be my guess... But I'll let the experts here at the forum tell me otherwise if that's not the case...
This would be my guess as well. Just like at work when people ask did you run the script, did the noon run of job x complete successfully, is application x running.
It runs the program. I don't know what's confusing. It isn't a translation of anything because "run" in the computer terminology sense doesn't get translated for the Japanese. It's just run, or rather RUN, maybe.
If you're asking why NEC didn't copy every single name feature and button from the Famicom pad I'd guess either they had their own take or maybe they just didn't want to look lame to a very important partner. The "start button" only existed on one other controller before, right? Sega didn't have one until MD, Sony was making stereos back then, MS was just really getting into Windows, no Neo yet, etc.
I remember as a kid, somebody telling me they made it Run, & the I & II buttons so they didn't get sued by Nintendo. Otherwise it'd be too close to the NES pad. By that logic, I guess the MD pad was different enough with having A B & C buttons, & no select button.
Because PCE was too fast for a walk button.
really though, because PC + run stuff = thats how it works.
Wish they named it CARRIAGE RETURN
Quote from: guest on 10/22/2017, 06:21 AMBecause PCE was too fast for a walk button.
I cast my vote for this theory.
Also nice work on facebook lately Ark. :lol:
Quote from: Gypsy on 10/22/2017, 09:28 AMAlso nice work on facebook lately Ark. :lol:
People summoned me back to deal with idiots so I'm over here like
http://youtu.be/gro3VLXQVWo
and them im like
http://youtu.be/ii5jR9uC1s0
lol and I guess like this too
http://youtu.be/GB1w7gSHZ_g
Quote from: ParanoiaDragon on 10/22/2017, 04:01 AMI remember as a kid, somebody telling me they made it Run, & the I & II buttons so they didn't get sued by Nintendo. Otherwise it'd be too close to the NES pad. By that logic, I guess the MD pad was different enough with having A B & C buttons, & no select button.
Its hard to imagine that working. In the US, sure, but in 1987 in Japan, maybe, unlikely.
Keeping in mind that Hudson was a hit Famicom dev and made FC controllers as well that looked exactly like FC/NEC pads it seems more likely to me that they genuinely thought it was a good design so they just stuck with the layout they had already developed for and made controllers for.
Hudson remained a Nintendo dev long after NEC got out of the business.
I'm I the only one who thinks ark kinda looka like Rambo. :D :dance: :lol:
We thank you for service Ark . =D>
Keep up the good fight against the collect-a-ass-hats 8)
Quote from: Psycho Arkhan on 10/22/2017, 01:14 PMPeople summoned me back to deal with idiots so I'm over here like
http://youtu.be/gro3VLXQVWo
Fuck that was funny, i messaged him after for lolzs. His views are so warped and twisted; he complains about people being mean to him, but tells people to kill themselves if they disagree with him
yeah, its kind of pathetic that most people on FB are too wussy to just call these people out and tell them to go get cornholed by a cactus
Why not a Run button? It's not like 'start' was an industry standard, nor were buttons 'a' and 'b' something automatically expected and better than 'I' and 'II'.
I think we can put this in the same circular file as "why is the save system so "bad"?" (because it was the first ever, it was 1987).
Quote from: guest on 10/22/2017, 06:21 AMBecause PCE was too fast for a walk button.
=D>
Why did Nintendo choose Start for their button. And why does that button pause the game? And why can many NES games be begun with a button other than Start? The problems with Run all begin with Start.
Quote from: guest on 10/23/2017, 10:11 AMWhy not a Run button? It's not like 'start' was an industry standard, nor were buttons 'a' and 'b' something automatically expected and better than 'I' and 'II'.
Why the reverse placement of II/I and B/A buttons? Shouldn't they be in numerical or alphabetical order?
Quote from: hoobs88 on 10/23/2017, 04:04 PMQuote from: NecroPhile on 10/23/2017, 10:11 AMWhy not a Run button? It's not like 'start' was an industry standard, nor were buttons 'a' and 'b' something automatically expected and better than 'I' and 'II'.
Why the reverse placement of II/I and B/A buttons? Shouldn't they be in numerical or alphabetical order?
Japanese read right to left.
Quote from: CrackTiger on 10/23/2017, 04:19 PMQuote from: hoobs88 on 10/23/2017, 04:04 PMQuote from: NecroPhile on 10/23/2017, 10:11 AMWhy not a Run button? It's not like 'start' was an industry standard, nor were buttons 'a' and 'b' something automatically expected and better than 'I' and 'II'.
Why the reverse placement of II/I and B/A buttons? Shouldn't they be in numerical or alphabetical order?
Japanese read right to left.
Oh my God it all makes sense now, how didn't I think of that after all these years?
Do they really read stuff from right to left? Manuals and in game text are always left to right. :-k
I'm not sure it matters what way they go, as they're just identification labels and not something to be read, but maybe they did it backward with plans of the Ave 3, wanting the extra button nearer the center of the pad for some reason. Another question is why do buttons IV, V, and VI turn around and go the other way?
Quote from: guest on 10/23/2017, 06:14 PM....... Another question is why do buttons IV, V, and VI turn around and go the other way?
I always assumed that the buttons were based on the layout of the button in relation to the board. button 1 was the first button closest and so on. but that is also arbitrary I guess . . .
IT could also simply be that Nintendo was labeled B then A. so II then I. different than Nintendo but the same. I mean you can swap out the NES pad in a mod. IT could also simply be that they wanted the action button in most cases to be labeled Earlier than the cancel button?
Quote from: guest on 10/23/2017, 06:14 PMDo they really read stuff from right to left? Manuals and in game text are always left to right. :-k
Maybe not so much Japanese text, which can often be read vertically, but they do read books and mangas from right to left. Manuals for Turbo Grafx games read left to right because they're meant for Americans.
Quote from: HuMan on 10/23/2017, 07:51 PMQuote from: guest on 10/23/2017, 06:14 PMDo they really read stuff from right to left? Manuals and in game text are always left to right. :-k
Maybe not so much Japanese text, which can often be read vertically, but they do read books and mangas from right to left. Manuals for Turbo Grafx games read left to right because they're meant for Americans.
Yes, I have seen many books in Japanese that are right to left or vertical. I doubt those written in Japanese characters on the PC engine games are meant for English readers. :-k I am pretty sure I have seen more than one PC engine manual written left to right and not vertical or right to left. I would venture that these are written in the Yokogaki style, is simply because it looks better on screens and was easier to program on early computers and consoles, and then copied over to the manuals where it also might look better/be consistent. But I don't know enough to really say that confidently.
I wonder how many game manuals break the left to right style and are more traditional? Anyone have any ideas?
Quote from: HuMan on 10/23/2017, 07:51 PMMaybe not so much Japanese text, which can often be read vertically, but they do read books and mangas from right to left. Manuals for Turbo Grafx games read left to right because they're meant for Americans.
Japanese PCE manuals read left to right too.
I don't think the reading orientation is why the buttons are like that.
The Megadrive's ABC go left to right.
My understanding (i.e. random guess) is that since the outer button is more accessible to your finger, it makes sense to make that button the "main" button and the other button the errr... "other" button. This can be most apparent during decision making, that you "confirm" with the outer button and "cancel" with the inner one. So it seems natural to name the outer (main) button A/I, and the inner button B/II. It would be a bit awkward to press B to confirm and A to cancel right? (I think such games do exist though.)
However, in "western" sense it is also reasonable to have the confirm button on the left and the cancel button on the right (as seen in options of questionnaires, etc.). The problem is, when you press the buttons on a game controller it doesn't feel so well in this way.
Quote from: Arkhan on 10/22/2017, 01:14 PMQuote from: Gypsy on 10/22/2017, 09:28 AMAlso nice work on facebook lately Ark. :lol:
People summoned me back to deal with idiots so I'm over here like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gro3VLXQVWo
I love when you oil up Ark!!! ((Bites lip))
Quote from: gilbert on 10/24/2017, 02:40 AMMy understanding (i.e. random guess) is that since the outer button is more accessible to your finger, it makes sense to make that button the "main" button and the other button the errr... "other" button. This can be most apparent during decision making, that you "confirm" with the outer button and "cancel" with the inner one. So it seems natural to name the outer (main) button A/I, and the inner button B/II.
But in shewties and action games, it's usually the other way around. Button II is used the most for attacking and button I is only for changing weapons, dropping bombs, jumping, etc.
Quote from: CrackTiger on 10/23/2017, 04:19 PMJapanese read right to left.
Japanese read right to left AND left to right, depending on context. Books are read with the pages going right to left, and manga additionally with a right to left flow, but most lines of text are read left to right if horizontal. The are read top to bottom, and then the columns read right to left if vertical.
because a "walk" button doesn't sound edgy enough.
I need to read more carefully. I almost read that as 'a "wank" button'.
Quote from: Keith Courage on 10/24/2017, 04:32 PMbecause a "walk" button doesn't sound edgy enough.
Now now, don't ruin his joke with sloppy seconds...
Quote from: Psycho Arkhan on 10/22/2017, 06:21 AMBecause PCE was too fast for a walk button.
but...
http://youtu.be/WW21rcHiVU0
Quote from: guest on 10/26/2017, 02:49 PMQuote from: guest on 10/22/2017, 06:21 AMBecause PCE was too fast for a walk button.
but...
http://youtu.be/WW21rcHiVU0
*ahem*http://youtu.be/ZZlFVUVbrPE
Fixed ;3
Nice!
Quote from: HuMan on 10/21/2017, 01:33 PMNot so much the button itself, having a dedicated pause and menu button is always good *looks shamefully at the Sega Master System*, but why a word like "Run"? Is it a weird translation? Just an English word that sounded good to the guys at Hudson Soft? Or did NEC use it because home computer people "Run" programs?
(?action=dlattach&topic=22727&attach=7826&image)
Because this is Turbo, so a WALK button would not be sufficient. :)
Yeah, I am late to the game...as usual.... :lol:
Sounds convincing enough to me.
Quote from: Bernie on 11/16/2017, 08:04 AMQuote from: HuMan on 10/21/2017, 01:33 PMNot so much the button itself, having a dedicated pause and menu button is always good *looks shamefully at the Sega Master System*, but why a word like "Run"? Is it a weird translation? Just an English word that sounded good to the guys at Hudson Soft? Or did NEC use it because home computer people "Run" programs?
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/waffleman640/images/c/cf/Gamepad.gif/revision/latest?cb=20100322203407)
Because this is Turbo, so a WALK button would not be sufficient. :)
Yeah, I am late to the game...as usual.... :lol:
That is a great dad joke, but someone already made it. Alas!
Quote from: Bernie on 11/16/2017, 08:04 AMBecause this is Turbo, so a WALK button would not be sufficient. :)
In that case, what didn't they call it boost?
...Wait... They did release a series of booster add-ons for the system. Mystery solved!
I want my controller to have a "Go" button.
The LA version has a SUB button, but the select button is sadly not a DOM button.
Quote from: guest on 10/26/2017, 02:49 PMhttp://youtu.be/WW21rcHiVU0
Heck yeah thanks for the jam
Actually, it's the "RUN" button, you fucking heathens.
Get with the program.
They wanted something that means the same thing as "Start" but didn't want to anger Nintendo by copying too much. A & B became I & II, Start became Run, the trademark D-pad became a floating disc, etc. This seemed pretty obvious to me at the time (yes, I'm old).
Of course that's the main reason, but I think the concern in this thread is that why is it RUN, not BEGIN, GO, PLAY or other similar words that consumers (at that time) would more likely understand. The use of I and II (or 1 and 2) is obvious and logical, but not RUN, apparently. It is quite possible that as NEC itself was a major computer manufacturer (not to mention that Hudson itself wrote implementations of BASIC on various 8-bit computers, that included Family Basic on the Famicom; too bad its sorta equivalent on the PCE, the Tsushin Booster (https://www.chrismcovell.com/TsushinBooster/), got canned), so they're in the mindset of "running" or "executing" programmes, and indeed it was a time where BASIC was a prominent programming language on home computers, so there were at least people who were familiar with "RUNning" their BASIC programmes.
Anyway, this (alongside the not-so-fortunate truth of having only one controller port) became one of the most well-known characteristics on the system.
Quote from: gilbert on 12/28/2017, 12:33 AMOf course that's the main reason, but I think the concern in this thread is that why is it RUN, not BEGIN, GO, PLAY or other similar words that consumers (at that time) would more likely understand. The use of I and II (or 1 and 2) is obvious and logical, but not RUN, apparently. It is quite possible that as NEC itself was a major computer manufacturer (not to mention that Hudson itself wrote implementations of BASIC on various 8-bit computers, that included Family Basic on the Famicom; too bad its sorta equivalent on the PCE, the Tsushin Booster (https://www.chrismcovell.com/TsushinBooster/), got canned), so they're in the mindset of "running" or "executing" programmes, and indeed it was a time where BASIC was a prominent programming language on home computers, so there were at least people who were familiar with "RUNning" their BASIC programmes.
Anyway, this (alongside the not-so-fortunate truth of having only one controller port) became one of the most well-known characteristics on the system.
"Run" *is* a similar word that consumers understood at the time. In that context it seems a little Engrish but no more so than "Enter/Return," or "Escape" on a PC keyboard.
When I "run" my car I kinda have to "Start" it first, right? ;)
When I "run" to the store I kinda have to "Start" my trip, right? ;)
When I "run" a story in a newspaper, I kinda have to "Start" publishing it, right? ;)
Wen I "run" a campaign, I kinda have to start the campaign, right?
When I "run" a game, I kinda have to "Start" the game. Same thing. "Start" is understood to be "Start and Run." "Run" is also understood to be "Start and Run."
If anything, "Select" is more Engrish than "Run," since it changes your selection rather than making/confirming your selection. IOW, Select does not "Select" your selection. Run, on the other hand, does "Run" your selection.
While "run" has its frequent usage in English (like "run a business", as the numerous examples you provided) I think it's less common for a Japanese/Asian consumer to come across it in non-computer terms though, back in the late 80's, where home computers were not as common. For them(me) the word was more associated with er... "traveling on your feet but not walking" or starting a computer programme. I think it's actually not related with it being Engrish or not, but whether the original target consumers were familiar with it or not.
I dunno. Seems that they have a handle on the meaning better than many English-speakers if any of us are confused about their usage. ;) Their use makes perfect sense, even in English. "Run" also means "Operate," "Go," and "Execute." It has for decades before electronic computers existed and that's why the meaning already existed for use in computer terminology. We didn't invent the meaning along with computer programming.
Is your refrigerator running? No? I guess it's operating then. ;)
The same button became a play button on PlayStation, even if that's not what the label says. "Start," "Play," and "Run" are just different words that all mean the same thing in that context. Run means to operate, advance, activate, execute, start, extend, etc.
When I "run a bath," it means I start preparations to bathe by running water to fill the tub. It's the same meaning of the word as the PCE/TG16 controller intends. We were expected to understand it the same way.
Y'all know how they loved trains, right? Maybe it's from choo-choos - trains run on time; they run on tracks, usually consisting of two running rails; specific routes are known as runs; etc.
<< insert joke about running a train on Princess Misa here >>
LOAD "*",8,1
SEARCHING FOR *
LOADING
READY.
RUN
You can't RUN away from BLODIA (or maybe you can?):
(https://junk.tg-16.com/images/LOAD_BLODIA_RUN.png)
'nuff said...
...although, I was intrigued by the visual language of an "NEC PCE OS" that graced a few advertisements back in the day:
https://archives.tg-16.com/Gekkan_PC_Engine_1993_02.htm
(https://archives.tg-16.com/images/NEC_OS_windows1.png)
(https://archives.tg-16.com/images/NEC_OS_windows2.png)
There are Easter Eggs on that web page, too...
:)
Quote from: johnnykonami on 12/28/2017, 06:23 PMLOAD "*",8,1
SEARCHING FOR *
LOADING
READY.
RUN
I just tried that on my C64. Looks like my disk drive is out of alignment again. :(
Didn't bother to read the whole thread, and I'm sure its already been mentioned but it has to be a reference to computers as the name PC-Engine was. At the time NES was aging and games on various computers were seen as way more advanced, I'm sure NEC as a computer manufacturer wanted to bring that point home.
I remember when I was a kid, before I had a TG-16, I thought it was cool that the controller actually had a button to make the character run!!
I remember everyone being intrigued by the Turbo but nobody had one. I eventually did though in maybe 8th grade.
Super Nt menu has the option to "Run Cartridge."
Run button lets you run away from the genesis.
WTF, this is still being debated?
Everyone who ever used a computer in the 80s knew the term RUN, including Japanese since BASIC only exists in English. NEC is a computer company...end of fucking story, sheesh.
Quote from: SignOfZeta on 02/20/2018, 01:21 AMWTF, this is still being debated?
Everyone who ever used a computer in the 80s knew the term RUN, including Japanese since BASIC only exists in English. NEC is a computer company...end of fucking story, sheesh.
Agreed. Also the system is called a PC Enigne. Run is a PC ommand. Not a huge leap. Start button was still a relatively new thing.
Let's remind ourselves that "Start" and "Select" has as little meaning as "Run". "Start" still starts games but it's more of a "Pause" button more than anything nowadays... "Select" however already lost all meaning since you're not selecting difficulty or game modes as in SMB or Contra which had you pushing select to choose 1P/2P, nor anything for that matter, there's no selection menu in which you use that button to toggle options.
It's a Shift key for Run, turning it into Re-Run.
PCE/TG-16|CD/SGX Discussion => Topic started by: HuMan on 10/21/2017, 01:33 PM