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Ugh.  Here we have two mediocre (at best) vertical shooters that many players actually seem to like.  I think they're both bland and ugly with soundtracks that are VERY overrated.  But that's just me, so let's see how these two "fan favorites" fare against each other.

I'm voting for Dragon Spirit, I guess.  The theme is a little more interesting than Super Star Soldier's generic space crap, and the power-ups (like growing additional heads and shrinking into a mini-dragon) overmatch SSS's typical armaments and inability to find a decent use for the I button. 

Previous Big Game Matchups:

Air Zonk 12, Aero Blasters 5
Dragon's Curse 9, Dynastic Hero 5
Rondo of Blood 17, Lords of Thunder 11
Ninja Spirit 19, Splatterhouse 9

You're nuts.  SSS is really playable and gets hectic especially in the later stages (stage 6, of course) where there's shit flying around everywhere and I find myself hooting and hollering as I avoid projectiles.

Dragon Spirit never was much fun, with an oversized and underpowered main "ship" making the game frustrating to play.  The only version of DS that I actually enjoyed (and finished!) was the NES version.

Quote from: ccovell on 09/13/2007, 12:46 PMYou're nuts.  SSS is really playable and gets hectic especially in the later stages (stage 6, of course) where there's shit flying around everywhere and I find myself hooting and hollering as I avoid projectiles.

Stages 5-7 are where the decent action is, although they're still painfully boring thematically, and the spider duo at the end of 7 is extremely lame.  Stages 1-4 are ugly, generic wastes of time, while 8 is horribly designed, with endless streams of harmless riffraff leading to encounters with old bosses.  The last boss isn't bad, though.  Also, SSS was maimed by the other much-better members of the series on the PCE.

I don't hoot and holler while playing SSS, that's for sure.  Hootering and hollering is for babies.  I could understand a little anxiety during, say, the later levels of Nexzr or Super Raiden.  But not SSS.

Quote from: ccovell on 09/13/2007, 12:46 PMDragon Spirit never was much fun,

No arguments there!

SuperStarSoldier is an awesome game. I don't see why you would like dragon spirit over it, but I don't really care anyways  :lol:

SSS is my least favorite in the Gunhed/Star Soldier series...

But I'm voting for it because it's prettier than Dragon Spirit, which has graphics that look like they were drawn with a box of crayons. That is, a box of crayons that was missing all but four of the colors.

I'd be surprised if the entire first level has more than 8 colors to show for itself. And I'm probably being generous there.

The sequel, Dragon Saber: The After Story of Dragon Spirit, is much better.

Quote from: ccovell on 09/13/2007, 12:46 PMYou're nuts.  SSS is really playable and gets hectic especially in the later stages (stage 6, of course) where there's shit flying around everywhere and I find myself hooting and hollering as I avoid projectiles.

Dragon Spirit never was much fun, with an oversized and underpowered main "ship" making the game frustrating to play.  The only version of DS that I actually enjoyed (and finished!) was the NES version.

You're both nuts! 

SSS is fun (for the reasons Mr. Covell already stated) -- if generic. Yeah, SSS is generic. But it is a competently executed game (mechanics, control, etc.) that really outshines a lot of the standard shooters you'll find on other systems. This is not a testament to SSS's greatness, perhaps, but to the sad lot of generic shooters out there that didn't have the basics nailed down, let alone some polish.

Now, I bought SSS when it first came out and I have to admit that it was a letdown from Blazing Lazers. You see, as far as I was concerned, SSS should have been better than Blazing Lazers since it was the spiritual sequel to it in North America (I think I speak for all Turbo fans of the era when I say that we hoped SSS was going to be "Blazing Lazers II").

Now, Dragon Spirit is a great game as well, despite you naysayers. Yes, if you compared Dragon Spirit to SSS, you'll notice that our dragon friend moves at a slower, more deliberate pace. But once you accept this fact, you're in for a treat. I've already defended the virtues of DS on these boards, so I'll just point out that the Xevious formula that Dragon Spirit heralds from (shooting aerial enemies and bombing terrestrial targets) really adds to the strategy and enjoyment of Dragon Spirit. As far as pure game mechanics are concerned, DS is superior to SSS simply because DS offers more depth, IMO, and not as mindless.

Don't get me wrong, I love mindless shooters. Critics of the genre tease us because they feel that shooters, in general, are vapid. I disagree with this sentiment, but even I appreciate it when a game offers a bit more strategy to stimulate the old gray cells.

At the end of the day, Dragon Spirit, despite the plodding worm, provides a more fulfilling experience than the swifter, "pick-up-and-play", yet more mindless SSS.

Or maybe not.

Runin does a great job choosing games for these match-ups, as far as I am concerned. The list of pros & cons for each title really make it difficult for me to choose a clear victor. I'll have to play them side by side before I cast my vote.

The worm has turned...

Oh i voted for SSS, Dragon spirit just looks and feels.....ugh...to me. See words can't describe it. True SSS aint as good as Gunhed but it still has some jazzy tunes and some cool powerups.

Quote from: esteban on 09/13/2007, 01:34 PMAt the end of the day, Dragon Spirit, despite the plodding worm, provides a more fulfilling experience

I get a more fulfilling experience from Deep Blue than I do from Dragon Spirit.

Quote from: esteban on 09/13/2007, 01:34 PMSSS is fun (for the reasons Mr. Covell already stated) -- if generic. Yeah, SSS is generic. But it is a competently executed game (mechanics, control, etc.) that really outshines a lot of the standard shooters you'll find on other systems. This is not a testament to SSS's greatness, perhaps, but to the sad lot of generic shooters out there that didn't have the basics nailed down, let alone some polish.

I don't know if it's all that competent.  I mean, as I alluded to earlier, they COMPLETELY wasted the I button.  Surely it could've been used to add something to the gameplay--a bomb, a special weapon, weapon switcher, whatever.  I can think of a LOT of vertical shooters, for the PCE and other systems, featuring control schemes that made much better use of what was available.  

Quote from: esteban on 09/13/2007, 01:34 PMRunin does a great job choosing games for these match-ups, as far as I am concerned.

Thanks, although maybe not this time, judging by the votes thus far.  I thought there were more Dragon Spirit fans here since I always seem to get swarmed by them whenever I make a negative comment about it.  But it's funny to see it get wrecked, and even funnier considering that I seem to be its sole "supporter," haha.

 :cry: I jumped the gun on my vote.... I voted SSS just because of the graphics.... but now that I stop and think about it I do enjoy Dragon Spirit more because of the depth of the gameplay (aerial and grounded targets)

Quote from: rag-time4 on 09/13/2007, 02:05 PM:cry: I jumped the gun on my vote.... I voted SSS just because of the graphics.... but now that I stop and think about it I do enjoy Dragon Spirit more because of the depth of the gameplay (aerial and grounded targets)

Well, when the 27-1 final tally comes in, we'll know that it really should've been 26-2.   :wink:

Maybe I should invoke a fifteen-vote mercy rule like they do in little league games that get out of hand.   :D

Since runinruder is clearly a Dragon Spirit lover, maybe he wants to buy my unopened NIB copy and put it behind glass.

Neither game is all that interesting to me.

Haha, funny matchup. I'm not really into either game, but I don't hate them. I'm inclined to vote SSS, but I'd have to play it again to see.

My vote's for Dragon Spirit simply because dragons are better than space ships (duh).  Super Star Soldier is as generic as they come, but Dragon Spirit offers a unique, if somewhat unexciting, environment.  Who doesn't like the dual mode ass kicking of scorching the flying bitches and fire bombing the ground scum?  Sure, SSS looks much better, but I like D.S.'s tunes better (stage 6 kicks ass) and the gameplay is more varied and, dare I say it, fun.

Quote from: runinruder on 09/13/2007, 01:48 PM

Quote from: esteban on 09/13/2007, 01:34 PMSSS is fun (for the reasons Mr. Covell already stated) -- if generic. Yeah, SSS is generic. But it is a competently executed game (mechanics, control, etc.) that really outshines a lot of the standard shooters you'll find on other systems. This is not a testament to SSS's greatness, perhaps, but to the sad lot of generic shooters out there that didn't have the basics nailed down, let alone some polish.

I don't know if it's all that competent.  I mean, as I alluded to earlier, they COMPLETELY wasted the I button.  Surely it could've been used to add something to the gameplay--a bomb, a special weapon, weapon switcher, whatever.  I can think of a LOT of vertical shooters, for the PCE and other systems, featuring control schemes that made much better use of what was available.

I don't think the control scheme / mechanics are groundbreaking, but I definitely think that the control is tight and precise. Plus, using SELECT to adjust speed was a great formula to continue using. I don't mind that there isn't a reserve of bombs in SSS. Isn't that a pointless use of a button anyway?

Tangent: I wouldn't mind pushing "RUN" or "SELECT" for the occasional times I'd resort to using a bomb. Plus, even though the bombs that we *do* find in SSS cannot be saved (delayed gratification), they do provide some (however slight) superficial instant gratification (akin to collecting the blinking gel in BL). SSS would be too easy with a bomb reserve, anyway.

I like how Button I switches the defense orbs around the ship in SSS. I know you don't like it, but it never struck me as a totally lame system. Dedicating prime real estate to a button that is rarely used (i.e. bomb) seems much more wasteful, IMO (naturally, this is the control scheme you'll find on most shooters, from Tiger Heli to Truxton). I never did understand that. Personally, if I had had a say in control schemes, I would have prioritized Buttons I and II for shooting (main weapon) and adjusting speed. Bombing should be relegated to the select or start button, since it is rarely used. I adjust speed all the time in games (it's fun!).

Tangent: Before magicengine.com forums lost a year's (or 2 year's?) worth of threads, I was compiling a list of games that "benefited" from the 3-button PCE pad (Button III is simply a re-mapped Select / Run button). It was fun experimenting with games to see if the third button helped, or was simply a novelty.

Quote

Quote from: esteban on 09/13/2007, 01:34 PMRunin does a great job choosing games for these match-ups, as far as I am concerned.

Thanks, although maybe not this time, judging by the votes thus far.  I thought there were more Dragon Spirit fans here since I always seem to get swarmed by them whenever I make a negative comment about it.  But it's funny to see it get wrecked, and even funnier considering that I seem to be its sole "supporter," haha. 

I haven't looked at the votes, so I guess I'll have to vote for the underdog (I did that last time, with Splatterhouse!). One of the reasons we (few) Dragon Spirit fans defend the game here is because most folks trash it! :)

Of course, I found it quite amusing that you voted for DS :) !

Quote from: esteban on 09/13/2007, 05:47 PMPersonally, if I had had a say in control schemes, I would have prioritized Buttons I and II for shooting (main weapon) and adjusting speed. Bombing should be relegated to the select or start button, since it is rarely used. I adjust speed all the time in games (it's fun!).

I think SELECT is perfect for "selecting" your ship's speed. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I always set the speed to either the fastest possible or second-to-fastest and leave it. I'll slow it down on the rare occasion I need to navigate in very narrow spaces I think I'll overshoot otherwise. Rest assured this is a very rare occasion.

same here   :)

Quote from: nat on 09/13/2007, 05:56 PM

Quote from: esteban on 09/13/2007, 05:47 PMPersonally, if I had had a say in control schemes, I would have prioritized Buttons I and II for shooting (main weapon) and adjusting speed. Bombing should be relegated to the select or start button, since it is rarely used. I adjust speed all the time in games (it's fun!).

I think SELECT is perfect for "selecting" your ship's speed. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I always set the speed to either the fastest possible or second-to-fastest and leave it. I'll slow it down on the rare occasion I need to navigate in very narrow spaces I think I'll overshoot otherwise. Rest assured this is a very rare occasion.

I guess I just have too much fun changing speed for the hell of it. I do the same thing with changing weapons for the sake of variety -- it's more interesting to me.

I love how you can make the ship super fast. I hate shooters with lame slow ships, it takes away from the experience.

I've barely played much of either game, so my super prejudiced vote goes to SSS. :P

Quote from: nat on 09/13/2007, 02:30 PMSince runinruder is clearly a Dragon Spirit lover, maybe he wants to buy my unopened NIB copy and put it behind glass.

I'll trade you my dirty, cracked SSS chip for it.   :wink:

Quote from: guest on 09/13/2007, 04:31 PMI like D.S.'s tunes better (stage 6 kicks ass)

Yeah, that stage 6 tune is very good, by far the best track in either of these games. 

Quote from: esteban on 09/13/2007, 05:47 PMI like how Button I switches the defense orbs around the ship in SSS.

After you grab a second orb power-up, they revolve around the ship by themselves.  So we're talking about what often amounts to a few seconds of manual orb placement with the I button.  Since you can make them revolve even after grabbing just one power-up by holding down the I button (you might need to turn turbo up to do it, I forget), and that phase will be brief anyway, they might as well have just let the orbs revolve automatically and used the I button for something more interesting and useful.  Bombs were just one alternative I mentioned.  (And I think that deciding when and where to use bombs is a better gameplay element than five seconds of manual orb placement, especially since most people just make the orbs revolve and don't just let them sit there anyway). 

Quote from: esteban on 09/13/2007, 05:47 PMOf course, I found it quite amusing that you voted for DS :) !

 :D  Yeah, I don't want any more grief from Dragon Spirit fans after this.  I was its lone "defender" when everyone else just stood around and let it get hammered and humiliated (by another shitty game, no less). 

Quote from: runinruder on 09/13/2007, 12:58 PMI don't hoot and holler while playing SSS, that's for sure...

That's because you don't play it in すげ~ぜっ!! mode like I do!  :D

Quote from: ccovell on 09/13/2007, 12:46 PMYou're nuts.  SSS is really playable and gets hectic especially in the later stages (stage 6, of course) where there's shit flying around everywhere and I find myself hooting and hollering as I avoid projectiles.

Dragon Spirit never was much fun, with an oversized and underpowered main "ship" making the game frustrating to play.  The only version of DS that I actually enjoyed (and finished!) was the NES version.

how true. never went really into dragon spirits, since the sprite is too clumsy and fat. SSS is without any doubts superior and offers unequalled opportunities.

Quote from: runinruder on 09/13/2007, 11:25 PMAfter you grab a second orb power-up, they revolve around the ship by themselves.  So we're talking about what often amounts to a few seconds of manual orb placement with the I button.  Since you can make them revolve even after grabbing just one power-up by holding down the I button (you might need to turn turbo up to do it, I forget), and that phase will be brief anyway, they might as well have just let the orbs revolve automatically and used the I button for something more interesting and useful.  Bombs were just one alternative I mentioned.  (And I think that deciding when and where to use bombs is a better gameplay element than five seconds of manual orb placement, especially since most people just make the orbs revolve and don't just let them sit there anyway).

Like I said, it isn't groundbreaking, but at least it's not used for bombs! :)

Plus, I thought that the orbs spun around faster when you held down the button. Woo hoo :)

Anyway, I still maintain that 5 seconds of orb manipulation vs. 5 seconds of bombing are pretty insignificant uses for a button. It would be much more satisfying if a jingle played when the button was pressed. I' only half-joking.

jjjjjjjjjjjjjmj

Quote from: esteban on 09/14/2007, 12:27 AMAnyway, I still maintain that 5 seconds of orb manipulation vs. 5 seconds of bombing are pretty insignificant uses for a button.

Bombs, when implemented properly, have a lot to do with strategy in a shooter.  Play through Super Raiden and tell me that bombs only occupied five seconds' worth of your decisions.  The brief orb manipulation in SSS is entirely irrelevant; even the few seconds you have "control" of them mean nothing as to whether you ultimately win or lose (read my previous post again for explanation why).  And for the third time, bombs were just one possible alternative; I'd prefer plenty of other possibilities too since the "use" of the I button they decided on is completely worthless.  By the way, the orbs spin faster when you pick up additional orb power-ups. 

To be perfectly honest, before this dialogue I never even knew you could orbit those orbs manually and I never had any trouble with the game.

Talk about a useless function! I can't really imagine anywhere it would've benefitted me to know that. I agree with runinruder-- what a waste.

I want to change my vote now.  :wink:

I agree with what Steve has said regarding the subject.

Bombs are for the weak  :wink: I don't like to spin my orbs, I change their position according to the situation.

I own, and love both games. But I like SSS more.

Quote from: runinruder on 09/14/2007, 12:50 AM

Quote from: esteban on 09/14/2007, 12:27 AMAnyway, I still maintain that 5 seconds of orb manipulation vs. 5 seconds of bombing are pretty insignificant uses for a button.

Bombs, when implemented properly, have a lot to do with strategy in a shooter.  Play through Super Raiden and tell me that bombs only occupied five seconds' worth of your decisions.  The brief orb manipulation in SSS is entirely irrelevant; even the few seconds you have "control" of them mean nothing as to whether you ultimately win or lose (read my previous post again for explanation why).  And for the third time, bombs were just one possible alternative; I'd prefer plenty of other possibilities too since the "use" of the I button they decided on is completely worthless.  By the way, the orbs spin faster when you pick up additional orb power-ups.   

My friend! I apologize, because I was being facetious in my last post! Those damn smiley faces were a clue :). Can't I have some fun with the conventions of the shooter genre (button a = shoot main gun, button b = bomb / large scale attack)?

Conventions? Who am I kidding?

"A = shoot + B = bomb" is the Bible of the shooter genre.

I've beaten Super Raiden :). It took me a long time just to beat Raiden, though. Years upon years. But you don't even have to use Raiden as an example. Bombs are crucial for Tiger Heli (NES) at certain points, especially after the second loop (see below*)...

Anyway, despite the conventions, we should still be able to poke fun at them. I really would like to have a button that plays a jingle (or triggers some other trivial event) in a game. I would like the jingle/event to change constantly, depending upon certain conditions of the game, thus giving the player a reason to constantly hit the "B button" throughout the entire game. It's for fun, for extra points, for unlocking stuff, etc. It is a trivial function, but it is constantly being used, so it warrants a REAL button.

Since bombs are important, but are only used at a few strategic points in any decent shooter, we can use some other, lesser button (let's say the "RUN" button).

This, my friends, would be a worthwhile use of Button A and Button B. Conventions be damned.**


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*Tangent: Our discussion about SSS got me to thinking about other things. Forgive me...

We should discuss the "auto-bomb" feature in Tiger Heli -- that was a pretty awesome idea and I can't think of another game that used it -- can you? Basically, instead of dying from an enemy bullet, your ship would automatically bomb (of you had a bomb in reserve) to extend your lease on life. Plus, the Little Helis doubled as barriers that could take one shot when they were destroyed. These two elements are pretty kool, as far as I am concerned. Our discussion here on SSS got me to thinking about the neat (sublte) game mechanics in games like Tiger Heli.

Basically, Tiger Heli was telling the player: "Your reflexes suck, but that's OK, we'll give you another chance." I think that is pretty kool.

Another neat thing that I just thought of: I liked how you could perform evasive maneuvers in 1943 (doing a loop). That's another neat game mechanic that more shooters could have incorporated, IMO (or something similar, at least).


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** Note: This post may contain facetious remarks. You may or may not find them amusing.

Quote from: esteban on 09/14/2007, 09:55 AM

Quote from: runinruder on 09/14/2007, 12:50 AM

Quote from: esteban on 09/14/2007, 12:27 AMAnyway, I still maintain that 5 seconds of orb manipulation vs. 5 seconds of bombing are pretty insignificant uses for a button.

Bombs, when implemented properly, have a lot to do with strategy in a shooter.  Play through Super Raiden and tell me that bombs only occupied five seconds' worth of your decisions.  The brief orb manipulation in SSS is entirely irrelevant; even the few seconds you have "control" of them mean nothing as to whether you ultimately win or lose (read my previous post again for explanation why).  And for the third time, bombs were just one possible alternative; I'd prefer plenty of other possibilities too since the "use" of the I button they decided on is completely worthless.  By the way, the orbs spin faster when you pick up additional orb power-ups.   

My friend! I apologize, because I was being facetious in my last post! Those damn smiley faces were a clue :). Can't I have some fun with the conventions of the shooter genre (button a = shoot main gun, button b = bomb / large scale attack)?

Conventions? Who am I kidding?

"A = shoot + B = bomb" is the Bible of the shooter genre.

I've beaten Super Raiden :). It took me a long time just to beat Raiden, though. Years upon years. But you don't even have to use Raiden as an example. Bombs are crucial for Tiger Heli (NES) at certain points, especially after the second loop (see below*)...

Anyway, despite the conventions, we should still be able to poke fun at them. I really would like to have a button that plays a jingle (or triggers some other trivial event) in a game. I would like the jingle/event to change constantly, depending upon certain conditions of the game, thus giving the player a reason to constantly hit the "B button" throughout the entire game. It's for fun, for extra points, for unlocking stuff, etc. It is a trivial function, but it is constantly being used, so it warrants a REAL button.

Since bombs are important, but are only used at a few strategic points in any decent shooter, we can use some other, lesser button (let's say the "RUN" button).

This, my friends, would be a worthwhile use of Button A and Button B. Conventions be damned.**


--------------
*Tangent: Our discussion about SSS got me to thinking about other things. Forgive me...

We should discuss the "auto-bomb" feature in Tiger Heli -- that was a pretty awesome idea and I can't think of another game that used it -- can you? Basically, instead of dying from an enemy bullet, your ship would automatically bomb (of you had a bomb in reserve) to extend your lease on life. Plus, the Little Helis doubled as barriers that could take one shot when they were destroyed. These two elements are pretty kool, as far as I am concerned. Our discussion here on SSS got me to thinking about the neat (sublte) game mechanics in games like Tiger Heli.

Basically, Tiger Heli was telling the player: "Your reflexes suck, but that's OK, we'll give you another chance." I think that is pretty kool.

Another neat thing that I just thought of: I liked how you could perform evasive maneuvers in 1943 (doing a loop). That's another neat game mechanic that more shooters could have incorporated, IMO (or something similar, at least).


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** Note: This post may contain facetious remarks. You may or may not find them amusing.

Esteban, how do you feel about the "taunt" button in Fatal Fury 2? It doesnt really have any impact on the gameplay but I always loved it. Seems like something you might get a kick out of.  :D

Quote from: esteban on 09/14/2007, 12:27 AMjjjjjjjjjjjjjmj

Precisely!  I couldn't have said it better myself, but what the fuck is this A button / B button horse shit?  Last I checked, they are button I and button II.  :lol:

Quote from: guest on 09/14/2007, 10:54 AM

Quote from: esteban on 09/14/2007, 12:27 AMjjjjjjjjjjjjjmj

Precisely!  I couldn't have said it better myself, but what the fuck is this A button / B button horse shit?  Last I checked, they are button I and button II.  :lol:

... Can't teach an old NES playin' dog new tricks?  :mrgreen:

Quote from: rag-time4 on 09/14/2007, 11:01 AM

Quote from: guest on 09/14/2007, 10:54 AM

Quote from: esteban on 09/14/2007, 12:27 AMjjjjjjjjjjjjjmj

Precisely!  I couldn't have said it better myself, but what the fuck is this A button / B button horse shit?  Last I checked, they are button I and button II.  :lol:

... Can't teach an old NES playin' dog new tricks?  :mrgreen:

Hahahahhhaa. :)

I was talking in general terms about the entire genre of shoot-em-ups, so I had to use "A" and "B" (the universal notation for buttons) instead of "I" and "II" when discussing shoot-em-up conventions. :)