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Turbo in HD

Started by 2X4, 05/03/2007, 07:23 PM

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2X4

Yes, I know the first thing anyone's thinking is "Why the hell would you want to play the turbo in a horribly distorted aspect ratio?"  Well, for a variety of reasons I want to be able to play the Turbo on my HDTV.  I'm looking into a video mod anyway, so I got to thinking, how hard (or impossible) would it be to mod a turbo to HDMI out?  If this is possible, It would be nice to see the wonderful rgb palette on my plasma, as well as eliminating the rca hookups.  I'm not hardcore enough to know how one might go about doing this or if it is even possible, but maybe by hacking a dvi-i to hdmi converter could work?  Could someone with more hardware wisdom provide some insight?
The Turbo was Dual Core when Dual Core wasn't cool . . .

Joe Redifer

First of all the Turbo can never be in HD since its highest resolution is just under half of the regular NTSC standard.  The first thing I can tell you is that you'll need either an RGB to digital converter or a component video to digital converter box which transforms analog signals into HDMI (which is NOT analog).  Stretching it to fill the whole 16:9 ratio would be stupid...  if you plan to do this, I will tell you no more.

CrackTiger

If you were to try to do anything like that, you'd need and RGB mod first.

If you're more concerned with getting a great image from your Duo and not simply HDMI, then you might as well just get an RGB transcoder(or whatever) that outputs either component or VGA. HDMI is simply a plug that can handle huge bandwidth that a Duo could never output, -in a convenient shape.

Part of what makes retro consoles look ugly on HDTVs is that they output a low res analog signal that gets upscaled by the HDTV. So I don't think that a Duo with S-Video will look much different than one ouputing RGB/misc, after it gets mangled by your HDTV.

I guess you could get the RGB mod, a transcoder and then pump it through an upscaler doohicky so your TV doesn't do the scaling (or whatever... I'm no tech head).

But before you do anything, you should try your Duo out on your HDTV using composite first to see if it can even run the Duo's video signal(mine can't).
Justin the Not-So-Cheery Black/Hack/CrackTiger helped Joshua Jackass, Andrew/Arkhan Dildovich and the DildoPhiles destroy 2 PC Engine groups: one by Aaron Lambert on Facebook, then the other by Aaron Nanto!!! Him and PCE Aarons don't have a good track record together! Both times he blamed the Aarons and their staff in a "Look-what-you-made-us-do?!" manner, never himself nor his deranged/destructive/doxxing toxic turbo troll gang which he covers up for under the "community" euphemism!

GUTS

Joe warned me that old systems look like ass on an HDTV, but hell they look great on mine through RGB to component.  I have a 52 inch Hitachi CRT, so maybe Hitachi TVs do a better job or something.  I'll have to post some pictures.

termis

I'm no videophile, but doesn't CRTs do better job handling older video signals, since they don't have a preset resolution mode?  (or something like that...  I'm just speaking out of my ass)

Seldane

Yeah that's right, Termis.
Quote from: Seldane on 04/21/2007, 07:28 PMDVDs are for suckers. Illegally pirated and stolen videos all the way. No menus. No "DO NOT PIRATE THIS!" screens. No fuss. Only perfection. I honestly only pirate movies because that "don't pirate this" screen annoys me. :wink:
IMG
Indeed, it's AV time. Check out: IMG! Sir, the door was open.

offsidewing

yeah, I don't know every bit of factual basis, but it's been my understanding through knowledge gained buying my new TV, that CRT's are most capable of delivering a crisp video image.  They are limitied by their size and weight.  Getting a Cathode Ray Tube in 60 inches would probably make the set weigh a metric ton.

I'd love to find a late 90's era 21-27" Trinitron or JVC to play my Duo on!

MrFulci

I'm not sure what the, "old systems look like ass on aan HDTV" comment comes from.

All I can figure, is what some folks notice when watching VHS on a larger screen. That the quality isn't as nice as a smaller screen.

The more you blow-up something, the more you can make out the weak spots. Is that what joe was referring to?
"Damnit, Beavis, put that away. You're not supposed to have your _____ out when you're cooking".

Kitsunexus

Magic Engine + PC ftw...
Forgive me, my brain is on par with the Bubble System.
THE CHEMICAL BROTHERS RULE!

Seldane

#9
Quote from: MrFulci on 05/04/2007, 09:42 AMThe more you blow-up something, the more you can make out the weak spots. Is that what joe was referring to?
I think he was referring to that the HDTV makes this...

/bonksadventure1zo4.gif

...Look like this:

/badhdtvja4.jpg
Quote from: Seldane on 04/21/2007, 07:28 PMDVDs are for suckers. Illegally pirated and stolen videos all the way. No menus. No "DO NOT PIRATE THIS!" screens. No fuss. Only perfection. I honestly only pirate movies because that "don't pirate this" screen annoys me. :wink:
IMG
Indeed, it's AV time. Check out: IMG! Sir, the door was open.

MrFulci

The HD I use allows me to resize the screen to different modes.
"Damnit, Beavis, put that away. You're not supposed to have your _____ out when you're cooking".

grahf

Not all HDtvs do that, some look perfectly fine (just huge).

GUTS

No he was saying something about how HDTVs only have a 480 resolution and up or something, and since the Duo and old systems output 240xsomething they have to double the scanlines so everything looks blockier and crappier than it would on an SDTV through component.  I think that was the gist of it.  Mine can do 4:3 or 16:9 so the stretching is not a problem.  If anybody is in the market for an HDTV, I'd totally recommend the one I got, it may be heavy but it's 52" and it was only $800 delivered from circuit city.  I love it, it's the best $800 I've ever spent.

Kitsunexus

Quote from: GUTS on 05/04/2007, 03:35 PMNo he was saying something about how HDTVs only have a 480 resolution and up or something, and since the Duo and old systems output 240xsomething they have to double the scanlines so everything looks blockier and crappier than it would on an SDTV through component.  I think that was the gist of it.  Mine can do 4:3 or 16:9 so the stretching is not a problem.  If anybody is in the market for an HDTV, I'd totally recommend the one I got, it may be heavy but it's 52" and it was only $800 delivered from circuit city.  I love it, it's the best $800 I've ever spent.
What's the brand/model #?
Forgive me, my brain is on par with the Bubble System.
THE CHEMICAL BROTHERS RULE!

MrFulci

GUTS,

If the television is decent, there shouldn't be many problems with the game system's display on the television. I haven't compared mid 90's and prior video game systems on loads of televisions, so take my comment as you will!

Though I do feel certain, the larger the screen is, the more you will benefit from an S-Video cable/mod.

Some folks, at first, don't realize they can stretch the picture on their HD Widescreen tv. It's a good option to look for in a television of this sort, as I've read about a few HD televisions where either the owner/reviewer could not locate resizing options, or they were not there.
"Damnit, Beavis, put that away. You're not supposed to have your _____ out when you're cooking".

2X4

I have used my TG-16 on my HDTV, and it really doesn't look bad.  My tv has several options for the aspect ratio, including a pillar box where the image isn't stretched at all, and another option where it stretches some areas less than others, and slightly crops the outside which doesn't look half bad either.  But the old problems composite video are still there.  And since a dvi-i connection has pins for analog rgb, and converters from dvi to hdmi exist, I thought it may be possible to sneak the rgb signal into my tv, and possibly digital audio if someone knew enough about it.  I am going to mod my turbo, so i thought i would tackle this question now, rather than do an s-video mod and then find out later that this would have been possible. 

Obviously it wouldn't increase the resolution of my system, I do know that.  I would never play in stretched mode, Bonk's head is wide enough, I don't want the poor bastard to be any more deformed.  My TV does not automatically try to upscale signals, though I think it can if I want it to.  I don't mind the blockiness of the enlarged pixels, that is just what you get when 200 pixels are displayed over several square feet.  I just want the turbo's out put to be piped in its truest possible form to the tv.  So, those of you with the skills, please keep the wheels turning, I think it would be really cool if someone can come up with a feasible way since apparently lots of us have made the HD leap.
The Turbo was Dual Core when Dual Core wasn't cool . . .

Joe Redifer

Yes, I was refering to the mandatory scaling that ALL HDTVs do to "classic" game systems.  These systems run at 240p, and then the TV interprets it as an interlaced signal so it converts it to 480i (image destruction #1), then it converts that 480i into 480p or whatever the HDTV's native resolution is (image destruction #2).  It makes it look blockier, yes.  And it also adds a bit of lag.  I don't care how quick your scaler is, it isn't instantaneous.  These game systems look much crisper and better on an SDTV displayed in 240p than on an HDTV no matter what connections are used.  If you can't see the difference, well then good for you.

MrFulci

Not ALL HDTV's do that upconversion to ____, then _________, etc. Check around, you may have some control on your television as to what output you want.

Joe, your television should at least be able to stop at 480i. Then again, ever since I saw a friend's HDTV monitor that lacked coaxial input (really...), nothing much can surprise me with HDTV's.

Scalers vary. Some are better than others. Lag has never come to mind when fooling around with my game systems.

I don't sense much image destruction when I play certain games on the HD. And I'm pretty picky with image quality, ahahha. I've gone so far as to have my HDTV calibrated... and recalibrated by www.avical.com.

I've had as early as an Atari 2600 hooked up to the HDTV. All have looked pretty decent, though I'm careful not to leave 2600 games on screen too long as the scores and such are stationary.


Untill I hook up 2 similar televisions, side by side, and play the same game, on the same system, at the same time, will i be able to form a concrete feeling on one over the other.
"Damnit, Beavis, put that away. You're not supposed to have your _____ out when you're cooking".

gundarN

I run my PC Engine on a 32" Sony Bravia HD telly and it looks really, really good; and that's just using the component cable. Much better than on my old (and expensive) CRT.

CrackTiger

#19
Regardless of how well any HDTV handles rotten old 240p consoles signals, a mod upgrade to at least S-Video will make a huge difference.

I took some screenshots of my 720p LCD with the Playstation 2 Wonderboy Collection running a couple games in 240p outputting through Component and the real actual consoles displaying the same screens through Composite and S-Video.


http://superpcenginegrafx.com/hdtvsvideo.html


There's not much difference between console 240p S-Video and emulated 240p Component.

My TV doesn't totally destroy 240p images, but there are artifacts that look kinda like some of those ugly optional filters that some emulators have. Its gets less noticeable the simpler the graphics. Single color blocky Intellivision sprites don't look much different. It does seem to have less of an affect on the Playstation 2 images, but they're also running at different vertical resolutions than the real graphics/consoles.

Classic systems still look nice enough to play on LCD  & Plasma HDTVs like this. But nowhere near as nice as on good CRT TVs.

So I don't think its necessary to attempt to get as close to HDMI as you can with a PC Engine, but an RGB/S-Video mod is recommended regardless of what kind of TV you're going to use.
Justin the Not-So-Cheery Black/Hack/CrackTiger helped Joshua Jackass, Andrew/Arkhan Dildovich and the DildoPhiles destroy 2 PC Engine groups: one by Aaron Lambert on Facebook, then the other by Aaron Nanto!!! Him and PCE Aarons don't have a good track record together! Both times he blamed the Aarons and their staff in a "Look-what-you-made-us-do?!" manner, never himself nor his deranged/destructive/doxxing toxic turbo troll gang which he covers up for under the "community" euphemism!

Kitsunexus

Quote from: guest on 05/06/2007, 05:38 PMI took some screenshots of my 720p LCD with the Playstation 2 Wonderboy Collection running a couple games in 240p outputting through Component and the real actual consoles displaying the same screens through Composite and S-Video.

http://superpcenginegrafx.com/hdtvsvideo.html

There's not much difference between console 240p S-Video and emulated 240p Component.
So the emulation sucks.
Forgive me, my brain is on par with the Bubble System.
THE CHEMICAL BROTHERS RULE!

CrackTiger

Quote from: Kitsunexus on 05/06/2007, 07:02 PM
Quote from: CrackTiger on 05/06/2007, 05:38 PMI took some screenshots of my 720p LCD with the Playstation 2 Wonderboy Collection running a couple games in 240p outputting through Component and the real actual consoles displaying the same screens through Composite and S-Video.

http://superpcenginegrafx.com/hdtvsvideo.html

There's not much difference between console 240p S-Video and emulated 240p Component.
So the emulation sucks.
How do you mean?
Justin the Not-So-Cheery Black/Hack/CrackTiger helped Joshua Jackass, Andrew/Arkhan Dildovich and the DildoPhiles destroy 2 PC Engine groups: one by Aaron Lambert on Facebook, then the other by Aaron Nanto!!! Him and PCE Aarons don't have a good track record together! Both times he blamed the Aarons and their staff in a "Look-what-you-made-us-do?!" manner, never himself nor his deranged/destructive/doxxing toxic turbo troll gang which he covers up for under the "community" euphemism!

Kitsunexus

Emulated component should look just as shit as real component.
Forgive me, my brain is on par with the Bubble System.
THE CHEMICAL BROTHERS RULE!

CrackTiger

Quote from: Kitsunexus on 05/07/2007, 12:01 AMEmulated component should look just as shit as real component.
It does, didn't you see the screenshots? Its like running a computer on your HDTV.

S-Video with retro consoles looks like emulation on a TV. Its only when you pick apart aspects of the image that you can really appreciate the slight improvement gained by RGB-to-Component. But both are a huge jump from Composite.

The distortion that un-console-friendly HDTVs produce evens out the slight difference even more. If anything, the console S-Video looks better than PS2 component to pixel haters, since it has smooth edges.
Justin the Not-So-Cheery Black/Hack/CrackTiger helped Joshua Jackass, Andrew/Arkhan Dildovich and the DildoPhiles destroy 2 PC Engine groups: one by Aaron Lambert on Facebook, then the other by Aaron Nanto!!! Him and PCE Aarons don't have a good track record together! Both times he blamed the Aarons and their staff in a "Look-what-you-made-us-do?!" manner, never himself nor his deranged/destructive/doxxing toxic turbo troll gang which he covers up for under the "community" euphemism!

Kitsunexus

Quote from: guest on 05/07/2007, 08:40 AM
Quote from: Kitsunexus on 05/07/2007, 12:01 AMEmulated component should look just as shit as real component.
It does, didn't you see the screenshots?
No from the screenshots it seems like emulated component looks like actual S-Video. If I choose component, I want component damnit!
Forgive me, my brain is on par with the Bubble System.
THE CHEMICAL BROTHERS RULE!

2X4

So I guess the best answer is to do RGB to component mod? 

I'm still holding out for the HDMI idea, for simplicity's sake.  Plus it would still be one less signal conversion.
The Turbo was Dual Core when Dual Core wasn't cool . . .

CrackTiger

Quote from: Kitsunexus on 05/07/2007, 09:28 AM
Quote from: CrackTiger on 05/07/2007, 08:40 AM
Quote from: Kitsunexus on 05/07/2007, 12:01 AMEmulated component should look just as shit as real component.
It does, didn't you see the screenshots?
No from the screenshots it seems like emulated component looks like actual S-Video. If I choose component, I want component damnit!
Those are photographs. Like I said in person the PS2 MW Collection looks like a computer emulator, only better.
Justin the Not-So-Cheery Black/Hack/CrackTiger helped Joshua Jackass, Andrew/Arkhan Dildovich and the DildoPhiles destroy 2 PC Engine groups: one by Aaron Lambert on Facebook, then the other by Aaron Nanto!!! Him and PCE Aarons don't have a good track record together! Both times he blamed the Aarons and their staff in a "Look-what-you-made-us-do?!" manner, never himself nor his deranged/destructive/doxxing toxic turbo troll gang which he covers up for under the "community" euphemism!

gundarN

Quote from: guest on 05/06/2007, 05:38 PMClassic systems still look nice enough to play on LCD  & Plasma HDTVs like this. But nowhere near as nice as on good CRT TVs.
I had a really good CRT, and it still looks much better on my LCD. I wouldn't even think about modding my PC Engine as the picture is perfect as it is.
I suppose it depends on which TV you have.

Seldane

Quote from: guest on 05/07/2007, 08:17 PMThose are photographs. Like I said in person the PS2 MW Collection looks like a computer emulator, only better.
How can it look better than on a computer monitor (i e perfect)?
Quote from: Seldane on 04/21/2007, 07:28 PMDVDs are for suckers. Illegally pirated and stolen videos all the way. No menus. No "DO NOT PIRATE THIS!" screens. No fuss. Only perfection. I honestly only pirate movies because that "don't pirate this" screen annoys me. :wink:
IMG
Indeed, it's AV time. Check out: IMG! Sir, the door was open.

NecroPhile

B_T was talking about a computer emulator running on a HDTV, which isn't quite the same as a computer monitor (though damn close).
Ultimate Forum Bully/Thief/Saboteur/Clone Warrior! BURN IN HELL NECROPHUCK!!!

termis

I for one can't stand the pixely mess of emulators on computer monitors.  Anything below, say 640x480, looks like an absolute mess with all the jaggedness (at least with all the filters turned off).

CrackTiger

Quote from: Seldane on 05/08/2007, 09:31 AM
Quote from: CrackTiger on 05/07/2007, 08:17 PMThose are photographs. Like I said in person the PS2 MW Collection looks like a computer emulator, only better.
How can it look better than on a computer monitor (i e perfect)?
The PS2 set emulates the games better than a "computer emulator", by which I meant a console emulator that runs on a computer(just in case anyone is going to say "how is it emulating a computer?" :?).  :wink:

Whatever you hook it up to is up to you.
Justin the Not-So-Cheery Black/Hack/CrackTiger helped Joshua Jackass, Andrew/Arkhan Dildovich and the DildoPhiles destroy 2 PC Engine groups: one by Aaron Lambert on Facebook, then the other by Aaron Nanto!!! Him and PCE Aarons don't have a good track record together! Both times he blamed the Aarons and their staff in a "Look-what-you-made-us-do?!" manner, never himself nor his deranged/destructive/doxxing toxic turbo troll gang which he covers up for under the "community" euphemism!