Censoring / Sanitizing North American Games

NightWolve · 01/24/2006, 08:08 AM

Quote from: "eastx"Well, why shouldn't I trust Falcom, if they made Ys? Or any original developer?

Well, I like Falcom myself and they're pretty good for action games. Any trust I have for them has been developed over the years, same goes for something like SquareENIX. You shouldn't have blind trust in the general sense is what I'm saying as appears to be the case with the purists.

You know, perhaps you missed all the shitty mediocre RPGs over the years that could've used some WD style revamping. Trust is something that is earned, not given freely as is being demonstrated with questions like, "Why shouldn't I trust any original developer?" More like, "What have they done to earn my trust or respect?"

QuoteIf I like the game, do I need it to be improved?

Assuming you're hardcore, got the import, then bought the US port and saw an "improvement" attempt made on it?

To put it another way, in your question, does "improve" mean something that you yourself would actually find to be an improvement, or what the company thought would be an improvement while you would find it to be a bad decision after having compared it to the original import, assuming you had access to it?

QuoteWhy translate a game at all if its story isn't worth maintaining?

Well, finding out that the story isn't worth maintaining is a judgment that would be made after translating it. Ditching it totally afterwards though, would be a lot more work I would think, so I dunno how often that's been done. You've got all the events, scenes, context issues, etc.; so many considerations you'd have to take into account and change. You'd have to reprogram the game significantly in most cases, I would think, and localizing groups probably wouldn't wanna go that far if just improving what's already there works well enough.

My "trust", specifically with WD, was built up based on their work, enjoying their products, etc. But then, I wasn't obsessed about the fact that the products originally came from the land of the rising sun, and thus, I just had to know what the original writers exactly wrote for the script.

Now, if I had reason to believe that the original writers were better for whatever specific game we're talking about, than WD would lose points in my book, sure. I want the better script, bottomline. But, nobody's ever made a compelling case to me with what games they did pick, as far as the story goes, that the original writers were better and thus I would've enjoyed a more literal translation. They tell me how much they hate Vic and that pop culture phrases they inserted, that I enjoyed, didn't belong in the game, because yeah, like you, preserving the "creators' intent" is apparently sacred.

QuoteLike I said, when Working Designs tried to improve the games they released here through code changes (removing Easy mode, etc.), they usually harmed the game more than they helped it.

The coding changes can be more easily called out as harmful or helpful assuming you track down the import to compare to the US port. I wouldn't care if I didn't know or have the original to seek out and find something like that to carp on. But at any rate, if they did make a bad decision and a majority that knew of the import agreed, well, then it wasn't an "improvement."

QuoteHow is trying to improve a script by writing something original or off-topic any different?

They don't even come close to being the same thing if we're talking WD. If they made a bad decision in recoding a part of the game, it's a bad decision. That doesn't speak to their script rewriting abilities. You're also again using "improving" as "harming" based on your previous comment.

It seems like you're attacking their credibility on the dialogue work by using the code changes that you found to be bad against them. Seems like a cheap shot to me. I mean, did you enjoy the script or didn't you? Since you can't read Japanese, you obviously can't compare lines and point to examples as easily as you can with coding changes like the difficulty setting you mentioned.

Assuming you've got a good script already to work with, then you don't necessarily need to "improve it," I would agree. But if you think your improvements could attract more gamers thus sell better, make the game far more memorable, and you have the talent to do it (which WD did), then you go for it. Some poor recoding decisions, doesn't take away from the memorable and enjoyable writing that they were known for. For most of us, at least.

QuoteWhy must it be done? I'm not seeing it...

Well, nobody said or demanded that it MUST BE DONE. It doesn't have to be done (which is dependant on if the source material is already good, an assumption being made in your questioning), but it can be highly preferable, especially if the original writers sucked. I'm not seeing then why apparently there isn't any room in your mind for it to BE done...

Oh, hey, I can ask more waste of time questions like, why must a mediocre story be preserved?? Why must that be done? Because of the sacredness of the creators' intent?? (Anyway, perhaps I'm inferring too much from what you already said. I'm confused cause you said you liked their work in the previous post, except for the recoding, but now appear to be playing devil's advocate for the purist that hates what they do totally.)

From my perspective and the literal translations I've dealt with in my projects, they came out dry, boring, and downright horrible at times. Now, a company wouldn't have to do much of anything to the script if the original writers were that good. Why add more to your costs improving a script that's already enjoyable, memorable, etc. and thus, will likely sell well as it stands? See, cause you're claiming that they're ruining the scripts. So, gimme an example where I would've enjoyed a literal line rather than one that had liberties taken with it, like you did with the recoding issue. That would help. Then I could say, "Yep, bad decision; it would've been better to have used the literal translation in that case."

It's not hard. Simply, I want an enjoyable product and many games that WD localized are still very memorable to me even to this day. Many games that were done in literal style, straight up, have been long forgotten. Ask me why I prefer it being done and not why it must be done and there is your answer.

esteban · 01/24/2006, 10:19 PM

A quick aside (this is relevant to WD recoding games to make them more challenging): A few months ago some folks here compared North American vs. Japanese Exile 2. The discussion mentioned a bunch of neat things (I didn't know that the NA version added parallax to some stages). I had always thought that WD dropped the ball on Exile 2, but after talking to folks here, I have given it a second chance and enjoyed it a lot more. Still a flawed game, though. I even bought the Japanese version (to see the changes myself), but I never got around to playing it.

/aside

eastx · 01/24/2006, 10:37 PM

Nighty, I don't have time to reply to your post right now, but about dropping the ball on Exile 2.... That game had the worst collision detection of any game I've EVER played. The best example is when using the female knife-throwing character... My other major complaint (besides the difficulty at times) is you can never max out your health - build your EXP all the way to 65535 or whatever, and you will get nothing at all for it. That's a major oversight to me, even if it only affects the obsessive like myself. Anyway, I still enjoyed the game (and the voice generally rocked, though a little hammy) but it's the kind of game I wouldn't pay more than $20 for on Xbox or PS2 these days...
I'll write more later about WD.

NightWolve · 01/25/2006, 03:00 AM

I dunno what it was with Exile 2, but it just wasn't as fun. Not a bad game, but I was hoping for more. Anyway, to be clear, nobody's arguing that WD was somehow perfect and free from making mistakes. I never made that argument and I hope that's not being inferred from anything I said. They were great for their time, I loved their script rewrites a great deal overall, and I will miss them.

ParanoiaDragon · 04/17/2006, 09:48 PM

I frankly hope we see WD again, purists can bite me, whether they be game purists, DBZ purists, or Macross purists...WHO CARES! I'm just glad when we actually get something! Like if we'd gotten any of the Far East of Eden games, changed or not, I WANT them! Yeah, WD ain't perfect, who is? Certainly not me, nor any of us, so we should never expect perfection, but sheesh, I put up with plenty of mistranslations, & re-writes, & whatever.

TurboXray · 04/18/2006, 12:21 AM

"definitely an E-class ticket"

WD ads were pretty funny, if you read the small print at the bottom of the page

akamichi · 04/18/2006, 10:44 AM

I used to be somewhat of a purist in the sense that I preferred the Japanese versions of games to the US counterparts. As time went on, I've gotten to the point where I'll buy whichever version comes out first. There are exceptions though. Mostly anime based games I'll only buy the Japanese version. Simply because I watched the Japanese versions on TV. The same animes in English just don't have the same appeal to me. Obviously this is because I grew up watching Japanese language animes.

As for translations, there is no way a person could do a 1-to-1 translation of a game into another language. If it is possible, then both languages would end up with some boring, simple, and lifeless sentences. IMO good translations require a person who is eloquent and articulate in both languages. This is pretty difficult. Idioms/jokes/etc can be difficult due to language and *culture* differences.

I'm not sure what the purists expect since it seems that they'll never be satisfied. I honestly don't care, but I think good translations are good because they capture the spirit of the story/characters/etc. Bad ones are bad because they are lifeless, simple, and boring... and are probably 100% grammatically correct.

With that said, I'm looking forward to getting Cosmic Fantasy 2 (US) and enjoying it in English for the first time.

esteban · 04/18/2006, 06:53 PM

Quote from: akamichi on 04/18/2006, 10:44 AMI used to be somewhat of a purist in the sense that I preferred the Japanese versions of games to the US counterparts. As time went on, I've gotten to the point where I'll buy whichever version comes out first. There are exceptions though. Mostly anime based games I'll only buy the Japanese version. Simply because I watched the Japanese versions on TV. The same animes in English just don't have the same appeal to me. Obviously this is because I grew up watching Japanese language animes.

As for translations, there is no way a person could do a 1-to-1 translation of a game into another language. If it is possible, then both languages would end up with some boring, simple, and lifeless sentences. IMO good translations require a person who is eloquent and articulate in both languages. This is pretty difficult. Idioms/jokes/etc can be difficult due to language and *culture* differences.

I'm not sure what the purists expect since it seems that they'll never be satisfied. I honestly don't care, but I think good translations are good because they capture the spirit of the story/characters/etc. Bad ones are bad because they are lifeless, simple, and boring... and are probably 100% grammatically correct.

With that said, I'm looking forward to getting Cosmic Fantasy 2 (US) and enjoying it in English for the first time.

I agree. I know it sounds crass and unsophisticated, but I can have quite an enjoyable time with a "bastardized" game/film if it has semi-decent production values. Sometimes I don't even need that! I recently tried to watch the original Japanese Goemon series... and unfortunately, it wasn't nearly as awesome (for me) as the horribly hacked version I grew up with: Battle of the Planets. Now, I wish that the English cartoon hadn't sanitized the themes on death and sexuality (among many other things) ... but I realized that Battle of the Planets was a "new creation", and that it doesn't have an analog in Japan. Goemon is Goemon. BotP is an utterly different beast altogether. Both are enjoyable!

By the way, CF2 is highly entertaining! WD did a great job w/ the cinemas/ story

TurboXray · 04/18/2006, 10:03 PM

When it comes to anime, I'm either/or. I can't stand to watch Bubble Gum Crisis in its English dub. I'll take the japanese dialog with subtitles everytime. Priss's voice is just so much cooler in japanese.

Akira on the other hand, I prefer the English dub. Though the new re-dub was unsettling at first, I now prefer it over the old dub. I was just so used to them saying "ka-nay-daa"...

I also prefer the bastardise Robotech over Macross, because I grew up watching that show when it was on the air. I couldn't get enough of it

The opening theme song is so... well... friggan awesome!

Back to games. I'm just happy I can play them in English - that's all. The fact that Tales of Symphonia came to the US is enough to moisten my eyes.

Someone should write an Ode to WD.

Bt Garner · 04/19/2006, 07:49 AM

Quote from: TurboXray on 04/18/2006, 10:03 PMSomeone should write an Ode to WD.

Do not misinterpret the subject ... I am glad that WD brought over the titles that they did. But they did also screw over not only TTI, but also the TurboDuo userbase as well when they jumped over to the Sega CD.

Keep in mind that what I am going to say here is how it happened, as I understand it, and may be partially incorrect, especially since I only received this info from the NEC side of things. I have no official dealings with WD or NEC, nor was I involved in anyway with the workings between the 2 companies.

Working Designs was basically given a Duo Dev Kit -- these development kits are generally rather pricey, the original PlayStation Dev Kits cost around $20,000. So, to get one at no cost is quite a deal. The understanding was that the funds needed to license the Japanese titles that they wanted to convert and bring stateside would be more feasible with a free dev kit. This would allow WD to start with smaller titles and then as their income grew, take on larger projects, with bigger licensing fees.

This is how things worked, for a while. Then at some point WD either realized that the Duo user base in the US was on decline (likely) or that the licensing fees were getting too large for the possible number of units that could be sold (also likely), or both. There may have been other factors too, I truly do not know.

But WD dumped the Duo and moved to Sega. Do I blame them? Not at all -- they had to keep afloat and moving to consoles with larger user bases is certainly a part of that (and MindRec is having the same struggle right now). I certainly have gotten the impression that WD promised more stateside Duo support to NEC than what it was able to deliver, but again, this is just a hunch based on the information that was told to me, and whether this promise was implied or actual, I also do not know.

Lack of WD support toward the end of the Duo's life certainly did not kill the Duo, but it did expedite the process. So that, if anything, is a reason to not be a fan of WD. But can you really blame WD for wanting to stay alive longer?

I am sure that Victor would have a different side to things, and somewhere between here and there is where the ture story actually lies (pun intended).

But if someone does write that ode, be sure to keep this in mind.

-bt

Keranu · 04/19/2006, 03:58 PM

Great post, I've never even put some of that information through my head before, but it all makes a lot of sense.

TurboXray · 04/19/2006, 04:09 PM

Quote from: Bt Garner on 04/19/2006, 07:49 AMWorking Designs was basically given a Duo Dev Kit -- these development kits are generally rather pricey, the original PlayStation Dev Kits cost around $20,000.

An off topic side note: PSP dev kits are now down to $4700. That's definitely with-in the reach of most indie developers. The idea of starting a company for developing on the PSP is very tempting, though I'm not sure what other cost and fees are involved - not to mention qualifying as a licensed company.

Bt Garner · 04/19/2006, 09:27 PM

Quote from: BonknutsPSP dev kits are now down to $4700.

It is rumored that Nintendo Revolution Dev kits will be around $2,000.
Which makes that option quite affordable.. ..

however, if you want to release anything, you must first become an official Nintendo Developer, and soem of those conditions include things like:

Nintendo is the exclusive provider of all software (so no software unless N makes it, and you get the bill for that).

All games/marketing amterial/etc must be approved by Nintendo before release.

(and the killer): You need to post a 5 million dollar bond to release a game.

Yes, I am being serious about that last one. This is basically an insurance policy in case some one sues you (and Nintendo) over your game, being for physical harm, mental anguish, decreased sperm count, copyright violation, etc.

I have been consdering this route, but the agreement that you have to go through to become an official Nintendo Developer is just a bit too prohibitive, in my mind, at this time.

I would guess that Sony has similar things in their agreements for becoming a PSP developer.

-bt

TurboXray · 04/19/2006, 10:11 PM

Quote from: Bt Garner on 04/19/2006, 09:27 PM(and the killer): You need to post a 5 million dollar bond to release a game.

Isn't this were a game publisher comes in? I wonder how much a small company actually make after signing away whatever rights, for another company to pick it up and publish it.

eastx · 04/20/2006, 01:07 AM

The Japanese version of Battle of the Planets/G-Force is Gatchaman. I can see having nostalgia for the hacked version, but that is just too hacked for me to want to see more than one or two episodes.

If you guys are considering indie development, Xbox 360 is where you should focus your efforts. Xbox Live Arcade is already thriving, and Microsoft is supposedly bending over backwards to get the major developers to support the service... So I would imagine everyone gets a pretty good deal through it

The Revolution will have downloadable software too, but we're not sure exactly how it'll work or how successful that'll be... Plus the prohibitive Nintendo policies mentioned above. ~ ~

esteban · 04/20/2006, 03:21 AM

Quote from: "eastx"The Japanese version of Battle of the Planets/G-Force is Gatchaman. I can see having nostalgia for the hacked version, but that is just too hacked for me to want to see more than one or two episodes.

Whoops, my bad, I made a typo

.

OldRover · 04/20/2006, 09:19 PM

Quote from: "bt"You need to post a 5 million dollar bond to release a game.

That's either a new stipulation, or one they neglect to mention when they offer the details at first. I've spoken with NOA reps before on the subject and never heard a peep about a $5mil bond. Then again, they also adamantly refused to admit to the existence of the Pegasus, so...go figure.

Bt Garner · 04/20/2006, 09:27 PM

Quote from: OldRover
Quote from: "bt"You need to post a 5 million dollar bond to release a game.
That's either a new stipulation, or one they neglect to mention when they offer the details at first. I've spoken with NOA reps before on the subject and never heard a peep about a $5mil bond. Then again, they also adamantly refused to admit to the existence of the Pegasus, so...go figure.

It's there... perhaps it's after the part where they say that once the agreement is signed that anything between you and Nintendo is then confidential?

See:
http://contracts.onecle.com/bam/nintendo.lic.2001.11.09.shtml

Quote10.2 LICENSEE's Insurance. LICENSEE shall, at its own expense, obtain acomprehensive policy of general liability insurance (including coverage for advertising injury and product liability claims) from a recognized nsurance company. Such policy of insurance shall be in an amount of not less than Five Million Dollars ($5,000,000 US) on a per occurrence basis and shall provide for adequate protection against any suits, claims, loss or damage by the Licensed Products. Such policy shall name NOA and Nintendo Co., Ltd. as additional insureds and shall specify it may not be canceled without thirty (30) days' prior written Notice to NOA. If LICENSEE fails to maintain such insurance at any time during the Term and for a period of two (2) years thereafter, NOA may secure such insurance at LICENSEE's expense.

-bt

TurboXray · 04/21/2006, 01:04 AM

What's the cost on such a bond?

Bt Garner · 04/21/2006, 07:40 AM

Quote from: BonknutsWhat's the cost on such a bond?

Depends on a lot of things (as all insurance does), but the going price seems to be in the $3,000-$7,000 range on an annual basis.

-bt

tjj · 04/21/2006, 01:06 PM

Quote from: CrackTiger on 09/09/2005, 09:40 PM
Quote from: GUTSedited quote:
Snatcher was a great game too, I don't see where the level of interactivety and amount of cinematics has any relation to how fun a game is. Hell, simple point & click games like Monkey Island are some of the best games I've ever played.

I also loved cinematic games(like Snatcher).

My point was that emphasis has been put more so on aesthetics over gameplay as years go by.

Final Fantasy is the best example, because if you remove the cinemas from the few games that have any, you can see than overall depth of gameplay has been going down a slippery slope from FFVII onward(although IX seemed better than XIII), where as leading up to FFVI, it was just the opposite.

And this is what has setup gaming in a very dangerous predicament leading up to the next generation. Casual gamers now rule, they're the market. And they judge games by budget just like movies. And now only big time developers are going to be able to afford to develop games that take advantage of the 3D power of new consoles.

What this should mean, is that we finally get awesome 2D games again, but somehow I don't think thats going to be the case.

I just hope that publishers start to look at ways of making money in general, not just risky smash hits. Because just as Nintendo can afford to make its own games for its own system, any publisher can make good money putting out a good 2D game, like recent Castlevanias, because it'll cost way less of a fraction to develop than it will proportionately earn in sales.

==========================================

dude, you might want to check out a series called "mother" in japan. the ONLY english version released was called "earthbound" in the U.S.A.
earthbound = "mother 2" .

"mother 3" is being released today/tomorrow/sunday/monday on gameboy advanced!!!

low-rez graphics, AWESOME story line, WIERD game.

and i LOVE it!!

^^ mother2 SCREEN-SHOT

^^ usa "earthbound" CARTRIDGE pic.

http://starmen.net/

^^ info source on the "mother/earthbound" games....

http://www.1101.com/MOTHER3/index.html

^^ japanese official "mother 3" page....

http://starmen.net/mother3/mother3world/#

^^ english translation of the official page (authorized too!)

Ninja Spirit · 04/21/2006, 03:24 PM

I just gotten my furthest on Genpei Toumaden II just now, and now I'm wondering about another localization edit for Samurai Ghost. It has a "seppuku" scene.

There was a boss in I think Round 3 or 4 that looked and fought exactly like my player. When you beat him, he gets on his knees and shoves his own sword through himself.
I wonder if that got taken out in the US version.

esteban · 04/23/2006, 11:02 AM

Quote from: Ninja Spirit on 04/21/2006, 03:24 PMI just gotten my furthest on Genpei Toumaden II just now, and now I'm wondering about another localization edit for Samurai Ghost. It has a "seppuku" scene.

There was a boss in I think Round 3 or 4 that looked and fought exactly like my player. When you beat him, he gets on his knees and shoves his own sword through himself.
I wonder if that got taken out in the US version.

Awesome! This is a great find

. Next time you play the game, make a note of what stage & boss this is! I'd like to document this with as many details as possible...

From our discussion in the other thread (about the waterfall boss who plays a flute), it seems that this is the boss for level 4?

Even if it *remained* in the TG-16 version, it's a fun bit of trivia

.

Keranu · 04/23/2006, 04:06 PM

Hey here's an interesting thing I noticed last night when looking through screenshots!

In the USA version of Shape Shifter (which came out in America first, right?), Lycos doesn't wear a shirt so his buff skin is fully exposed. However in the Japanese version, Lycos wears a brown shirt!

esteban · 04/23/2006, 04:41 PM

Quote from: "Keranu"Hey here's an interesting thing I noticed last night when looking through screenshots!

In the USA version of Shape Shifter (which came out in America first, right?), Lycos doesn't wear a shirt so his buff skin is fully exposed. However in the Japanese version, Lycos wears a brown shirt!

ROCK ON! I love these little nuances... who can confirm this? I only have the U.S. version of the game....

ParanoiaDragon · 04/23/2006, 10:05 PM

I have both, so I can confirm it. I just never thought much about it. Also, I might add, that I believe the Jp game is easier. I remember, I originally played the Jp version, yeaaaars ago, & I got to the moon....before my friend erased my memory by saving over it

But, when I got the US version, I just couldn't do it....that is, without the cheat code!

esteban · 04/23/2006, 10:44 PM

Quote from: "ParanoiaDragon"I have both, so I can confirm it. I just never thought much about it. Also, I might add, that I believe the Jp game is easier. I remember, I originally played the Jp version, yeaaaars ago, & I got to the moon....before my friend erased my memory by saving over it But, when I got the US version, I just couldn't do it....that is, without the cheat code!

Yes, Paranoia, I remember you saying that you thought the Japanese version was easier -- probably on the ME boards way back when we were talking about this game.

You also said that you like the translucent(?) water effects in one of the stages? Could you elaborate on this, because it sounds interesting (I honestly don't remember much about this game, since I haven't played it since it came out... although I popped the CD in my CD player a few months ago and I liked the music

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Keranu · 04/23/2006, 11:42 PM

The transparency effects for the first area with water looks pretty nice as PD said, though two things I thought could be touched up on it were more texture on the top of the water like waves, instead of the flat top it has (though it kind of looks cooler that way), and the other reason being that only Lycos seems to show off the transparent effect, not the enemies if I recall. Excellent game, by the way.

TurboXray · 04/24/2006, 01:05 AM

Quote from: Bt Garner on 04/21/2006, 07:40 AMDepends on a lot of things (as all insurance does), but the going price seems to be in the $3,000-$7,000 range on an annual basis.
-bt

That's definitely within a small companies range. That makes it even more tempting

A group of friends/associates and I are forming a new LLC. It's mostly film production, but there are other areas/fields this company will cover. I'm going to have, to have a talk with the other members and investors about game development. I'll PM you as this is getting off topic.