Ultimate 2D console

[Monster Bonce]

Anybody else wish a new, souped-up PCE would be released just for 2D games, given how retro gaming has got so big?

Anyway, mindless dreaming aside, what is the ultimate 2D console? PCE Arcade Duo? Neo Geo? Saturn?

Edit: Genuine question and I mean in terms of game quality, not tech specs. I suppose breadth of library could be an issue, but not necessarily.

[Tatsujin]

the problem is less the hardware, more the qualified people which will program on it.

[Seldane]

Nintendo DS. No contest.

[Monster Bonce]

Nintendo DS. No contest.

Never played it but it seems pretty nice. What about home systems rather than portables?

[Monster Bonce]

the problem is less the hardware, more the qualified people which will program on it.

I know. 'Tis but a dream. I still think it could be a money maker if it was done properly: go for the retro market as well as casual gamers and sell it cheap €50 – 80 and €20 a game. Still, it ain't gonna happen and the devs wouldn't be interested anyway.

That said, old computers do pop up in unusual forms. One of the kiddy toy computers about eight years ago was actually an Apple II in drag and then there's this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mensch_Computer

More here: http://www.westerndesigncenter.com/wdc/mensch_computer.cfm

($995 if you're interested)

[NecroPhile]

It's an interesting idea, but not really feasible.  A Gamecube or PS2 has far, far more horsepower than any of the 2D consoles had, and they can be bought brand new for $100 and $130, respectively.  Just because they can do 3D graphics, doesn't mean that their games have to be in 3D.  I can't see anyone being able to design, produce, and sell a new console that could undercut these two systems.

Genuine question and I mean in terms of game quality, not tech specs.

If technical specifications aren't important, than all of the consoles are pretty much equal.  For any particular genre, there are damn good games on the NES, SNES, TG-16, NeoGeo, Genesis, etc.  Some may look better than others, but that doesn't make the game any more entertaining or of higher quality.  If you equate game quality to scaling, rotation, color count, parallax, or similar things, then you are actually talking about hardware capabilities.  Based on objective abilities, the Saturn is the best 2D console as it is easily the most powerful (not surprising, considering it's also the newest).

[Seldane]

Nintendo DS. No contest.

Never played it but it seems pretty nice. What about home systems rather than portables?

I'd say SNES and Saturn.

[Monster Bonce]

It's an interesting idea, but not really feasible.  A Gamecube or PS2 has far, far more horsepower than any of the 2D consoles had, and they can be bought brand new for $100 and $130, respectively.  Just because they can do 3D graphics, doesn't mean that their games have to be in 3D.  I can't see anyone being able to design, produce, and sell a new console that could undercut these two systems.

Actually, that's a really good point. Not only that but the economies of scale would make the fantasy console more expensive again, not only in terms of a manufacturer purchasing chips but also the overall level of sales of components. For example, the level of sales of a PowerPC core (as used in all three current gen consoles to one degree or another) might actually make them no more expensive on the open market than the modern descendant of an ageing and now specialist chip like the eZ80 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EZ80), Coldfire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coldfire) or 65816/65802 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/65816).

If technical specifications aren't important, than all of the consoles are pretty much equal.  For any particular genre, there are damn good games on the NES, SNES, TG-16, NeoGeo, Genesis, etc.  Some may look better than others, but that doesn't make the game any more entertaining or of higher quality.  If you equate game quality to scaling, rotation, color count, parallax, or similar things, then you are actually talking about hardware capabilities.  Based on objective abilities, the Saturn is the best 2D console as it is easily the most powerful (not surprising, considering it's also the newest).

More good points. I think I want at least PCE quality graphics and sound. Going back more than that they just seem too crude to my eyes now.

In the end I suppose it comes down to which has the best library plus the ever nebulous nostalgia factor.

I was never interested in the Neo Geo but am beginning to be. Bad sign. I'll probably buy one within a month.

[Monster Bonce]

I suppose lurking beneath the surface of my question is another question.

Should I buy a Neo Geo? Should I buy a Saturn?

I shouldn't be spending money right now so it'll be a while before I do, but, on balance, which is better (broad question, I know)? I already have a PC Engine, a PC Engine Duo, an N64 and a Wii. The Neo Geo is famed for its beat-'em-ups. I can't see me buying a lot of those—they're fun and all, but... I don't know.

Or should I just stick to the PCE/Duo? After all, I only have 15 PCE games (11 Hucard, 4 CD), about 6 N64 games, 2 Wii games and 5 VC games. There's still tonnes to find and play on the PCE.

[Seldane]

Do NOT buy a Neo-Geo. I repeat, do NOT! The system is madly expensive, the games are madly expensive, and the library consists of 99% beat-em-ups.

A Saturn is most certainly a good thing to have. Highly recommended. In addition, you really need to have a SNES and a Mega Drive. Obviously.

[Monster Bonce]

I had a SNES back in the day. I might buy one again someday. I never liked the MD, though I did want to play Magical Flying Hat Turbo Adventure. When it became Decapattack I wasn't so interested, which probably says more about me than the game.

I was a SMS. I threw one out about 8 months ago, like the idiot I am.

Has the Neo Geo not come down in price? Even for older B and C grade ones?

[Joe Redifer]

The Neo Geo system itself isn't THAT expensive.  I paid $125 for my current AES and that included a Universe BIOS (you want one) and an RGB bypass.  Many games aren't expensive at all.  You can find great games like Nam 1975, Magician Lord and similar for $30 and under, sometimes even brand new.  Those aren't fighting games/beat 'em ups.  There are other great AES games that go for a bit more, obviously, and some that might actually be considered somewhat expensive, like Neo Turf Masters (around $1800 or so).  But seriously, the only ones who can't afford the Neo Geo are dirt poor and/or homeless people.  And as we all know, homeless people do not deserve to be considered real human beings.

[td741]

You can just go the MVS (arcade board) route with a Neo-Geo as well.  The games tend to be dirt cheap, and you've got the chance to purchase games that never officially made it to home format (i.e. Blazing Star).

There are a few consolized systems and superguns available.  If you get yourself an MVS 2 slot, you only really need to wire a supergun for Video and power, the rest can be done on the board (stereo headphone out, and neo-geo stick connectors on the board).

[Kitsunexus]

Powerwise: Commodore CD32 (it's a fucking AMIGA!!!) and the Neo·Geo.

Gamewise: The SNES, no contest.

[TR0N]

You can just go the MVS (arcade board) route with a Neo-Geo as well.  The games tend to be dirt cheap, and you've got the chance to purchase games that never officially made it to home format (i.e. Blazing Star).

There are a few consolized systems and superguns available.  If you get yourself an MVS 2 slot, you only really need to wire a supergun for Video and power, the rest can be done on the board (stereo headphone out, and neo-geo stick connectors on the board).

Agreed man it's funny when people think there only option is a AES.

Given there are many ways to play MVS at home either by cab,consolized or running the mvs board through a supergun.

Collecting for the neo isn't that expensive.. if you pick the MVS route jmwalsh.

While the system is know for it's fighters it does has it's "share of sports,action platformers and shooters as well.

My setup is a cmvs 2-slot and so far i have 30+ games and i'm satisfy of 'what i got for it right now.

Not to put the saturn down either since i have one too.

Since the saturn is great for shooters and all.

[Kitsunexus]

Given there are many ways to play MVS at home either by cab,consolized or running the mvs board through a supergun.

You forgot the Phantom converter cart.

[TR0N]

Given there are many ways to play MVS at home either by cab,consolized or running the mvs board through a supergun.

You forgot the Phantom converter cart.

Please that thing is trash i had one when i own a AES.

Some games would play fine while others wouldn't not to mention, it doesn't work on ..any snkp titles thanks to the lockout those titles have.

I'd all most the recomend the, Super MVS Converter II but again i've seen the reviews on that it will play every thing, but you can end up with a glitch in the graphics.

Realy playing mvs carts on it's original hardware is the best way to go about it.

Nuff said!

[Kitsunexus]

You didn't mention sac-carts. It's the only use for those Ragnagard and World Heroes AES cartridges.

[TR0N]

You didn't mention sac-carts. It's the only use for those Ragnagard and World Heroes AES cartridges.

Meh on, coversion carts either since it sac mvs carts but if it's a, World Heros cart i don't care 

[Kitsunexus]

You didn't mention sac-carts. It's the only use for those Ragnagard and World Heroes AES cartridges.

Meh on, coversion carts either since it sac mvs carts but if it's wh i don't care 

I'm sorry, no offense, but I didn't understand a SINGLE fucking thing you said. 

EDIT: NVM, I understand, I'm just tired.

"Meh, I don't like conversion carts either because you have to ruin MVS carts, but if it's a World Heroes AES cart I don't care. ;)"

Yeah, I'm stupid and tired. Sorry.  I'm going to bed. 

[TR0N]

You didn't mention sac-carts. It's the only use for those Ragnagard and World Heroes AES cartridges.

Meh on, coversion carts either since it sac mvs carts but if it's wh i don't care 

I'm sorry, no offense, but I didn't understand a SINGLE fucking thing you said. 

EDIT: NVM, I understand, I'm just tired.

"Meh, I don't like conversion carts either because you have to ruin MVS carts, but if it's a World Heroes AES cart I don't care. ;)"

Yeah, I'm stupid and tired. Sorry.  I'm going to bed. 

It's been one of those days huh 

[Joe Redifer]

The CD-32 sucked ass, unless you REALLY like James Pond and that sort of shit.

[Seldane]

The CD-32 sucked ass, unless you REALLY like James Pond and that sort of shit.

Über word. Couldn't agree more. The real Amiga featured many nice games, but for some reason they chose to pretty much only port the junk to the CD-32.

[Kitsunexus]

The CD-32 sucked ass, unless you REALLY like James Pond and that sort of shit.

Yeah, but that's why you get the system module so you can play the floppy games. EVERYBODY knows the Amiga floppy games are better than the CD games.

[Joe Redifer]

Everybody?  Even George W. Bush?  How about Eric Estrada and Lindsay Lohan, have they been made aware of this as well?  Well, you said EVERYBODY so surely they must know.

[Kitsunexus]

Everybody?  Even George W. Bush?  How about Eric Estrada and Lindsay Lohan, have they been made aware of this as well?  Well, you said EVERYBODY so surely they must know.

They probably do, I've just never asked them.

[nat]

Everybody?  Even George W. Bush?

George W. Bush believes believes the Amiga is a weapon of mass destruction.

[Kitsunexus]

the Amiga is a weapon of mass destruction.

Oh, but it IS! You could launch fucking nukes with it...

[Joe Redifer]

The Jaguar was the most nuclear-capable console ever.  Tons of bombs on that thing.

OK who here LOL'd at that?

[Kitsunexus]

The Jaguar was the most nuclear-capable console ever.  Tons of bombs on that thing.

OK who here LOL'd at that?

I won't lie. I grimaced.


And I don't mean that purple pedo thing.

[PCEngineHell]

To mess with the MVS and AES subject again,the Phantom 1 worked well, I had one a couple of years back before I switched over to MVS stuff. The problem with it was not liking newer games,and the death grip it had on carts. It was hard to place on and remove carts. For the price you would have to spend on a AES console and  a Phantom 1 or Super MVS converter you could afford to buy a consolized 2 Slot and some games.

MVS carts are far cheaper,and are constructed better then the AES carts. You also have a larger selection to choose from readily available on ebay and other net shops dealing in arcade hardware. Average MVS cart prices tend to be from $7-90 depending on the game. If you want to own Shock Troopers or Blazing Star its a easier task with a MVS in your hands.

Yea the NEO has a ton of fighters,but it also has a ton of other types of games,shooters,top view racers,puzzle titles,action games,and sports games. The Saturn is a great system too,for its 2d and its 3d depending on the games you plan to buy. Neither system can do wrong in my eyes.

[TR0N]

To mess with the MVS and AES subject again,the Phantom 1 worked well, I had one a couple of years back before I switched over to MVS stuff. The problem with it was not liking newer games,and the death grip it had on carts. It was hard to place on and remove carts. For the price you would have to spend on a AES console and  a Phantom 1 or Super MVS converter you could afford to buy a consolized 2 Slot and some games.

Agreed that's why i don't recomend the Phantom 1 to any body.

Had the same experince as well with the converter and i still, see it as junk and to be overated as well.

[terrormask]

Take a look at this.

http://www.chicago-gaming.com/alegends.php

They need to start making something like this more cheaper so that everybody can afford them. It basically is an arcade machine cabinet with great arcade games already installed on it. I would get one (especially for the mortal kombat, ghost'n goblins and goulsn' ghost's), but I can't afford one. Damn things cost at least 2 grand.

[Joe Redifer]

The monitor is laying too flat in the upright.  I've never seen an arcade with a near-horizontal monitor unless it was one of those tabletops that you found at Godfather Pizza.  Also the connection is probably s-video and not even RGB, and I wouldn't be surprised if the games were emulated.

[Kitsunexus]

They have some of those that run in the $200 - $400 range. They're not very good, they're just game-on-chip units wired up to a subpar arcade cabinet.

It's like, if you WANT a multi-arcade cabinet, go build a MAME cab or liberate a Nintendo Playchoice from some abandoned bowling alley.

[Kitsunexus]

I figured no one would believe me, so here you go:

http://www.amazon.com/Big-Electronic-Games-43100-Konami/dp/B000GYV4W8

http://www.amazon.com/Midway-Series-I-Arcade-Game/dp/B000AQHKR0/ref=pd_sbs_t_2/105-5976708-7191643


To me, there's just something wrong about owning multi-cabs, I'd rather walk into a room full of old arcade cabinets that I owned, then just having one of these very poor emulators in the house.

[NecroPhile]

I played around with one of those cabinets at a local Target and it was better than I expected.  The cabinet wasn't very stout and the monitor sucked, but overall it was pretty decent for the price.  Still, building your own MAME cabinet is the best choice.

[Kitsunexus]

No, THIS is the best choice: the Arcadia Multi Select System!

IT'S A MULTI-GAME AMIGA POWERED ARCADE CABINET!!!

http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/arcadia.html

Ninja Masters PWNZ!

[SignOfZeta]

The best 2D console right now that is still being supported would be the DS, or the PS2. If you consider the GBA still active (technically it is) then that pretty rad as well.

The best 2D systems of all time would be the NeoGeo (don't buy an AES, get an MVS), or Saturn. The DC is pretty great too.

[terrormask]

They have some of those that run in the $200 - $400 range. They're not very good, they're just game-on-chip units wired up to a subpar arcade cabinet.

It's like, if you WANT a multi-arcade cabinet, go build a MAME cab or liberate a Nintendo Playchoice from some abandoned bowling alley.

It probably would cost equal to build a MAME cabinet and I did think about it a few times while back. I just don't know if I'm ready to put in hundreds of hours and dollars for something that I could rather just buy instead of building, then again, it would be better if I built it instead because then I have put in all the effort and my own imaginative customizations to it. Then I would truly have more a right to call it my own if I built it.

[Kitsunexus]

They have some of those that run in the $200 - $400 range. They're not very good, they're just game-on-chip units wired up to a subpar arcade cabinet.

It's like, if you WANT a multi-arcade cabinet, go build a MAME cab or liberate a Nintendo Playchoice from some abandoned bowling alley.

It probably would cost equal to build a MAME cabinet and I did think about it a few times while back. I just don't know if I'm ready to put in hundreds of hours and dollars for something that I could rather just buy instead of building, then again, it would be better if I built it instead because then I have put in all the effort and my own imaginative customizations to it. Then I would truly have more a right to call it my own if I built it.

Plus if you build it, you'll have good emulation, not shit emulation.

[Keranu]

You know, the PC-FX could've been the ultimate 2D console (at least game wise) with the right developers and encouragement since it was pure 2D, but just failed flat. Hopefully independent development can fix that.

[PCEngineHell]

Sometimes you can run across a local arcade vendor that will gladly help you convert a cab into a mame cab,so long as you supply the computer and parts and buy a cab. You will have to pay them,but it usually wont be more then 200-300 bucks depending on how much work it will require,if the monitor needs a new cap kit,ect ect.

[Kitsunexus]

You know, the PC-FX could've been the ultimate 2D console (at least game wise) with the right developers and encouragement since it was pure 2D, but just failed flat. Hopefully independent development can fix that.

I agree 100% with this.

[GUTS]

I don't know about the PCFX, even the most impressive 2D games on it aren't as impressive as Saturn and PSX 2D games.  The Saturn was a beast, although the PCFX definitely had the advantage in full screen video playback.

[Kitsunexus]

I don't know about the PCFX, even the most impressive 2D games on it aren't as impressive as Saturn and PSX 2D games.  The Saturn was a beast, although the PCFX definitely had the advantage in full screen video playback.

Well that depends. Do you mean the stock Saturn, or a Saturn with an MPEG card?

[Keranu]

I don't know about the PCFX, even the most impressive 2D games on it aren't as impressive as Saturn and PSX 2D games.  The Saturn was a beast, although the PCFX definitely had the advantage in full screen video playback.

I don't quite mean graphic wise, but gameplay wise since it was a 2D only console during the beginning of an age of 3D consoles. It could've benefitted from improved previous 2D games as well as innovating new kinds of 2D games. Graphically however I think the system could've been pushed waaay more as well with all that power in it to look just as good as 2D Saturn and PS1 games, but for what we got, it doesn't look a whole lot better than PCE's nicer games.

[Kitsunexus]

I don't know about the PCFX, even the most impressive 2D games on it aren't as impressive as Saturn and PSX 2D games.  The Saturn was a beast, although the PCFX definitely had the advantage in full screen video playback.

I don't quite mean graphic wise, but gameplay wise since it was a 2D only console during the beginning of an age of 3D consoles. It could've benefitted from improved previous 2D games as well as innovating new kinds of 2D games. Graphically however I think the system could've been pushed waaay more as well with all that power in it to look just as good as 2D Saturn and PS1 games, but for what we got, it doesn't look a whole lot better than PCE's nicer games.

They were both conceived as 2D only consoles. However, while one saw the writing on the wall and added hardware 3D capability, the other chose to tough it out and died a miserable death.

Have no pity, it's simply survival of the fittest.

[nat]

I don't know about the PCFX, even the most impressive 2D games on it aren't as impressive as Saturn and PSX 2D games.  The Saturn was a beast, although the PCFX definitely had the advantage in full screen video playback.

I don't quite mean graphic wise, but gameplay wise since it was a 2D only console during the beginning of an age of 3D consoles. It could've benefitted from improved previous 2D games as well as innovating new kinds of 2D games. Graphically however I think the system could've been pushed waaay more as well with all that power in it to look just as good as 2D Saturn and PS1 games, but for what we got, it doesn't look a whole lot better than PCE's nicer games.

Have you played Zenki? Zenki kind of hinted at what the PCFX might be capable of graphics-wise in a 2D platformer environment. There are some shots in that game you'd swear were polygons (most likely pre-rendered stuff, but still nice) mixed with really nice "pixel art". I think had programmers pushed the system like they did the Turbo/PCE, we could've seen many things on par with what the PS1 and Saturn offered just as you suggest. Zenki and MegaMan X4, for example, are quite similar graphically.

Trouble is, the system died an early death and most of the programmers focused on exploiting the FMV qualities of the console in making digital comics instead of 2D platformers or shooters.

[termis]

I don't know about the PCFX, even the most impressive 2D games on it aren't as impressive as Saturn and PSX 2D games.  The Saturn was a beast, although the PCFX definitely had the advantage in full screen video playback.

Well that depends. Do you mean the stock Saturn, or a Saturn with an MPEG card?

Well, I thought Saturn FMV using TrueMotion (Fighters Megamix, Virtual On, Last Bronx) didn't look half bad.  Too bad this wasn't used for most of their games.

Cinepak, on the other hand, was really quite horrible -- though there were a couple exceptions (Enemy Zero and Eve Series games).  I recall being pretty damn amazed by Playstation FMV after after having only played the Saturn for so long.