PCE Memories "Turbo Duo Edition"

[sniper]

You're obviously a moron.

Another ad hominem attack. Consider yourself lucky I'm even bothering to respond.

The only thing of true value that tobias is offering is the content on the disc, which wouldn't exist without people like Tom.  Don't try to say I'm wrong, as we all know you wouldn't pay more than a couple bucks if it was just the case, manual, and a blank disc.

Then why aren't I paying you and others 119 Euro? The proof is in the pudding; he is bringing a real, tangible joy to my doorstep that I can put in my system and play. If he wasn't offering the value, why would I be sending him my money?

The files have zero value sitting around on your hard drive. That's why you're not making money off of them. Their value becomes manifest in the product that Tobias is offering-- not before. An idea is worthless if it hasn't been brought into the world.

[NecroPhile]

Another ad hominem attack. Consider yourself lucky I'm even bothering to respond.

Lucky?  After you called Tom a butthurt whiner, I couldn't care less if you dropped off the face of earth.

Then why aren't I paying you and others 119 Euro?  The proof is in the pudding; he is bringing a real, tangible joy to my doorstep that I can put in my system and play. If he wasn't offering the value, why would I be sending him my money?

The files have zero value sitting around on your hard drive. That's why you're not making money off of them. Their value becomes manifest in the product that Tobias is offering-- not before. An idea is worthless if it hasn't been brought into the world.

You believe translations, homebrew, etc. are worthless and not 'real world' until someone makes pressed discs?  That's simply absurd.  If I sit you down in front of a system with the game running, you'll never be able to tell if it's a cd or cdr (or flashcart instead of a commercial hucard), so how is one any less 'real world' than the other?

[Bernie]

Well, this thread went to shit fast...lol   I think I will just go f%^$ myself....with a hair dryer....   

 

[esteban]

The only thing of true value that tobias is offering is the content on the disc, which wouldn't exist without people like Tom.  Don't try to say I'm wrong, as we all know you wouldn't pay more than a couple bucks if it was just the case, manual, and a blank disc.

Then why aren't I paying you and others 119 Euro? The proof is in the pudding; he is bringing a real, tangible joy to my doorstep that I can put in my system and play. If he wasn't offering the value, why would I be sending him my money?

The files have zero value sitting around on your hard drive. That's why you're not making money off of them. Their value becomes manifest in the product that Tobias is offering-- not before. An idea is worthless if it hasn't been brought into the world.

sniper, you are confused. You have it backwards.

Tobias did not translate a game. Or patch it. Or create audio dubs for cinemas. Or hack MegaMan, Castlevania, Dragon Warrior, Contra, etc. to play on PCE.

TOBIAS DID NONE OF THESE THINGS.

sniper, you do realize that when folks like Bonknuts and NightWolve and Burnt_Lasagna and  _________ stop creating new stuff (translation patches, audio dubs, hacks, new games).....we all suffer, right?

TOBIAS DOESN'T GIVE A FUCK.

Apparently, you don't either.

I do.

So, go fuck yourself.

[sniper]

I couldn't care less if you dropped off the face of earth.

Wat... if I say to you, "you're being irrationally butthurt, and here is my reasoning", that is not an ad hominem attack. Calling me a "moron" and a "troglodyte" is.

And about your latest argument: let me reiterate, proof is in the pudding. If you want to make money, offer me a product or service whereby I value the marginal utility of the product or service more than the marginal utility of the money I'm foregoing. Don't get pissy that someone else is doing that.

Tobias did not translate a game. Or patch it. Or create audio dubs for cinemas. Or hack MegaMan, Castlevania, Dragon Warrior, Contra, etc. to play on PCE.

Yikes, go back and re-read my message. You are literate, right?

Anyway, I'm done checking this thread. You guys are just reinforcing my initial impression that you're too emotional to process reason.

[jlued686]

Anyway, I'm done checking this thread. You guys are just reinforcing my initial impression that you're too emotional to process reason.

EVERYBODY'S CRAZY BUT ME!!!!!!

If you don't understand how packaging someone else's work and selling it, without giving them an ounce of credit or making the slightest attempt to reimburse them - because the money you've made would not be possible without the work that they did - is a shitty thing...well...I join the peanut gallery and invite you to GFY.

[ToyMachine78]

Well, this thread went to shit fast...lol   I think I will just go f%^$ myself....with a hair dryer....   

 

Just making some more pcefx memories Berns.... Ahhhh good times.

[Mathius]

Well, this thread went to shit fast...lol   I think I will just go f%^$ myself....with a hair dryer....   

 

Just making some more pcefx memories Berns.... Ahhhh good times.

Be sure to remove all items containing plastic to the next room before commencing, Berns. Please.

[esteban]

Tobias did not translate a game. Or patch it. Or create audio dubs for cinemas. Or hack MegaMan, Castlevania, Dragon Warrior, Contra, etc. to play on PCE.

Yikes, go back and re-read my message. You are literate, right?

Anyway, I'm done checking this thread. You guys are just reinforcing my initial impression that you're too emotional to process reason.

You read my posts, correct?

Reducing the complexity of our discussion (which involves ethics) to a binary economic formula that even a mentally challenged cave-dweller would find ludicrous is...hilarious!

sniper's theory of value*

Value = physical commodity delivered to customer  (pieces of plastic/paper sold by Tobias)

No value = time/energy/skill/labor/expertise to create translation/dub/hack (distributed digitally/online)

*a willfully narrow, overly-simplistic formulation that fails to capture the complexity of the real-world issues at hand.


Hilarious! Your theory of value, which sidesteps the VERY HEART OF OUR DISCUSSION is a naive attempt to misdirect us.

Again, re-read my post (I linked to it in a prior post) and post a thoughtful reply.

This is my second request that you respond to ANY of the 7-8 points I listed.

I am waiting for your thoughtful response.


Meanwhile...
You are a coy illusionist, sniper. You have no desire to engage in the actual discussion. Your logic does not hold. Your argument does not hold. Oh, you vainly tried to dress your limp thesis in the sterile, stiff cloak of economics....but you forgot that we are literate and semi-intelligent.

We are the Cro-Magnon to your Le Troglodyte.

[NightWolve]

If you want to make money, offer me a product or service whereby I value the marginal utility of the product or service more than the marginal utility of the money I'm foregoing. Don't get pissy that someone else is doing that.

This is similar to what was said before. I can and will get "pissy" when my work hours were somehow involved. If you can clap like a seal and say only positive things about his actions because it serves your interests in wanting a pressed disc, so too can negative things be said about him if he took advantage of somebody else to produce his product, most especially by the actual people who had their terms-of-use violated... You don't get to tell critics they somehow have no say via "don't get pissy," only that YOU do. The world is not a "only positive comments allowed" when it suits you, you're not "entitled" to that, so to speak.

I don't fall into this category, but another point is that many fan hackers/translators have a strict fan credo view that the work is non-profit and specifically state in their licensing files that the work is not to be sold by anyone. Not that they will be listened to, not that they have legal rights, WE KNOW THAT, only to make known their wishes! Such people do not want discs pressed, and are not ever going to make them themselves... Duh! So you going around and telling them either make the pressed discs yourselves, or don't get pissy (read: don't complain, shut up!) when somebody else does without consent/notification, is self-serving, entirely disrespectful of their viewpoint and the conditions under which they did the work in the first place.

You're NOT "entitled" to receiving a pressed disc and neither was Tobias in making one [legally] since he escaped thousands of dollars in license fees, just so you know.

Anyway, I'm done checking this thread. You guys are just reinforcing my initial impression that you're too emotional to process reason.

It's not that we're too emotional to process reason, it's that you're apparently too self-serving to criticize him for his past actions, both his lying about his Sapphire bootlegs which have cost suckers hundreds of dollars, and the taking of fan work without consent/notification.

Given Bonknuts/TurboXray's explanation though, I now have to revise what I said about Tobias if they indeed spoke to each other at some point. It was Bonknuts that contacted him, not the other way around though, but that might be understandable if the source of the Rockman bootleg was some auction in Japan and Tobias took it and duped more of them.

[ToyMachine78]

Zzzzz....Zzzzzzz....Zzzzz....

[NightWolve]

Oh sorry, not entertaining enough for ole toymachine here...

[Nemo]

Most everyone is making valid points, let's just accept that and be courteous to our Turbros, even if some have been less than courteous to us in the past. Some guys have had bridges burned and will never reconcile, that's their prerogative. Tobias seems to be moving in the right direction but he's certainly no hero, and my point was in the spirit of enthusiasm, as my bro Steve said, I love the idea of these repros. And I'm not alone. However, Tobias execution of the idea has been flawed, so as a community lets learn and grow from this in a positive way in the creation of future projects.

And thank you Nightwolve for your work on Ys IV, great stuff. Im too stupid to figure out how to burn a copy that works in my Duo, but someday.

[OldMan]

... if the source of the Rockman bootleg was some auction in Japan and Tobias took it and duped more of them.

IIRC, that's what he *claimed*. Then someone here bought a copy, and dumped it. Lo and Behold, it
was an exact duplicate (byte for byte) of Bonknuts iso Which is what started the whole sh*t storm.

If you want to make money, offer me a product or service whereby I value the marginal utility of the product or service more than the marginal utility of the money I'm foregoing. Don't get pissy that someone else is doing that.

Want to buy a stolen VCR? I cleaned it and made sure it worked....
...and don't say its not the same. Rockman was taken without consent for distribution.  Personal use only is the general rule for downloads.

I believe Bonknuts did the whole NES-to-PCE conversions for educational reasons; he wanted to know if it would be possible. He shared that information hoping others would then be able to use it. Not sell it.

[HailingTheThings]

And thank you Nightwolve for your work on Ys IV, great stuff. Im too stupid to figure out how to burn a copy that works in my Duo, but someday.

Start with a good CD writer

Add some good quality 74min recordable media

Download sweet software

Pat yourself however you feel seems appropriate

[TurboXray]

Some of you guys are much more pissed than I am. Matter of fact, I wasn't exactly pissed or angry (just a little bit upset). And I can't speak for any other repros that are being sold without permission (this is a huge problem in the SNES scene right now). I felt more sad, and foolish, than anything else. Tobias has seemed to gauge public opinion on the matter and has stuck with just untouched PCE CD games. So it's not him that's a concern, but somebody else that has no scruples about taking Dracula X, Xak III, Ys IV, or the upcoming games (Spriggan Mark 2, Xanadu, etc). There are plenty of people, like Sniper, that could care less as long as they have a product in hand. I'm actually really surprised Ys IV with the recent dub, hasn't become prime candidate #1. I understand that CD-Rs suck for more people (older Duo's not running, the hassle of trying to get a good burn, etc) or don't want to use emulation. I honestly don't have an answer to that.

 Anyway, lets move on. I'm sick of discussing the MM debacle (it's beginning to feel narcissistic - lol) . I don't think anything more can be said on it. Thankfully, it was the only one and not something like Ys IV (I hope BL does more dub projects).

 That said, I'm not against community based pressings or hucard stuffs of anything that I work on (though I can only speak for myself and not co-work) - as long as they are non-profit in fashion. I think that would satisfy both the need/desire to have the game and the greater issue of profiting/etc. Well, this community/forum anyway. Yeah, there will be people like <forget his name> that will resell it for bank (like what happened to Ark?). The difference is the greater purpose; getting the game to the fans without making a business out of it. Originally, this was brought up about Dracula X (community pressing) and I said no. Not because I was against it, but I feared that my name would be attached to it and legal action taken against me (my field is Computer Science, so that wouldn't be a good thing). Looking back now, it was probably kind of irrational to think that. And I wouldn't have a problem now (non-profit community pressing). But, I still can't speak on behalf of Fragmare, BL, and others that were involved in that project.

[clackattack]

I mean, im completely willing to pay a few bucks for some nice discs with a sweet printed image on em and then I will burn them myself...

[technozombie]

Personally, I think the best way to do this kind of stuff and stay friendly with the community is to have everything up on the internet for download. For example, if someone wants to package MM then they should provide links to the download, + links to a lightscribe file, and the files to print your own manual. Then they can charge whatever they want. Those who don't want to mess with it will pay, everyone else can make their own.

Edit: For some grammar.

[Duo_R]

Speaking of lightscribe, what's the best lightscribe discs for Turbo?

[Medic_wheat]

I mean, im completely willing to pay a few bucks for some nice discs with a sweet printed image on em and then I will burn them myself...

What if you have a complete disk based game that is expensive



And you have an extra loose disk you keep in a cd binder or such that you use to play the game instead of messing with the complete expensive one?

[clackattack]

Taiyo Yuden makes something like a "water shelid" topped disc that is meant for printing on... not 100% sure if it works with lightscribe tho