First there was yet another re-release of Sapphire without custom packaging, along with SFZ and Rockman, which both fooled enough people into paying thousands for. Now there are 5 more, with one game being sold for 120 Euros on its own.
Last time I checked, HappyConsoleGamer still had that PCEWorks ad up telling everyone that they're so great because "they don't make them look like the originals and would never do that".
The worst part is that even if I tried to make bootleg guides for all of them, collectards will still sell the known bootlegs to each other for hundreds of dollars as "the rarer second print versions".
LIMITED PANTSU EDITION.
Seriously.
Quote from: guest on 12/18/2016, 09:27 AMFirst there was yet another re-release of Sapphire without custom packaging, along with SFZ and Rockman, which both fooled enough people into paying thousands for. Now there are 5 more, with one game being sold for 120 Euros on its own.
Last time I checked, HappyConsoleGamer still had that PCEWorks ad up telling everyone that they're so great because "they don't make them look like the originals and would never do that".
The worst part is that even if I tried to make bootleg guides for all of them, collectards will still sell the known bootlegs to each other for hundreds of dollars as "the rarer second print versions".
Because it's not like rubber dildo LIED and originally claimed the Sapphires were legit or anything. Fuckfaces.
If I am remembering wrong someone can correct me, but I still dislike this shit either way.
Fuck me. We need someone who gets more than 19 views a video to help educate fellow video game enthusiasts (let's assume most potential buyers have sincere intentions...just for the sake of educating, not criticizing, folks).
:(
I feel like making a PSA video, just for fun (because I feel motivated by this issue) but the reality is nobody will see it. But maybe we can ask Bucci, Redifer, CGM (jibbajabba?) et al. to spread the word.
SOMETIMES, I worry that this effort might ultimately help Tobias sell MORE PRODUCT because too many people are indifferent about the issue... Or, sadly, too lazy to invest in learning about the issue to make an informed decision.
HOWEVER, it would be foolish not to try to educate folks. Otherwise, the HappyConsoleConsumers of YouTube will blindly promote Tobias.
Quote from: esteban on 12/18/2016, 11:18 AMFuck me. We need someone who gets more than 19 views a video to help educate fellow video game enthusiasts (let's assume most potential buyers have sincere intentions...just for the sake of educating, not criticizing, folks).
:(
I feel like making a PSA video, just for fun (because I feel motivated by this issue) but the reality is nobody will see it. But maybe we can ask Bucci, Redifer, CGM (jibbajabba?) et al. to spread the word.
SOMETIMES, I worry that this effort might ultimately help Tobias sell MORE PRODUCT because too many people are indifferent about the issue... Or, sadly, too lazy to invest in learning about the issue to make an informed decision.
HOWEVER, it would be foolish not to try to educate folks. Otherwise, the HappyConsoleConsumers of YouTube will blindly promote Tobias.
I think this is a real issue. Of course Gamesack has a lot of reach, but if they talk about this, it will just draw even more attention to Tobias. For as many that will be outrage, there might be a multiple of that number that will just buy it because hurrdurr.
There are a lot of post-Napster collectards that don't really understand what "legit" means. Just as many comprehend but don't care. They want the most specialist rarer version and the legit game is just a boring single disc release with no energy drink. It's really hard to get through to these guys and explain that the version that just paid $300 for was made in the wrong continent decades after the game went permanently out of print.
Anyone who has ever spent a great deal of time pouring their creative soul into something and stuck with it through the boring and expensive stage of bringing it to mass production...you don't have to explain it to those guys and gals. They get it. It's the people who pretty much only...consume that are the issue. They just want more shit to buy forever and fake PCE games are as good at that as real ones. When the thing looks real they do not care because they don't know what "real" is.
So sadly I think you should get PCEFX shitlist favorite Pat the NES Punk to do a mini episode on it. I'm sure he's looking for topics/excuses to make more episodes anyway so I say give it a shot. He has lots of viewers and overall they are the ones that know what fake is.
Btw, do you have any links to evidence or more info? I'm interested in this.
Quote from: esteban on 12/18/2016, 11:18 AMFuck me. We need someone who gets more than 19 views a video to help educate fellow video game enthusiasts (let's assume most potential buyers have sincere intentions...just for the sake of educating, not criticizing, folks).
Educate people about what?
I don't think that this is going to be a popular sentiment, but I'm having a hard-time in maintaining my "outrage" in the face of the events here at PCEngineFX in the last year.
The general-consensus here seems to be that ignoring copyright and making personal copies of games by burning CDs or using a Turbo Everdrive is OK.
But, to keep the forum "legally clean", we're not supposed to put links to free digital downloads.
OTOH, we've now got a thread where "respected" forum members are charging money for unlicensed bootleg copies of HuCard games (breaking the same copyright law) and it's OK to put links to their site and ordering info, and people here seem to love them.
So the forum now seems to approve of bootlegged game production for money.
I understand that there is historical reason to dislike Tobias and PCEWorks (and recent-history at that with his release of translations), but IMHO, we've destroyed our standing to complain too-much about him by buying-and-selling-off old-stock of his CDs on this very forum.
We could still hold our heads up high when BlueBMW bought up Tobias's "flawed" Sapphire discs and gave them away for free ... but last year's selling ("to recoup costs") of the CDs showed that these days we're just complaining about the price, and not the bootlegging itself.
So, if the main complaint that's left is that Tobias charges more than people here think is fair for his "product", and that he's an absolute ass that has outright lied and tried to decieve people, and that he doesn't respect the wishes of translators ...
... then I suspect that it might be hard to find a YouTube "personality" to take up arms against him for a crusade that seems more "personal" than "moral-high-ground".
And, it's going to be hard to "educate fellow video game enthusiasts" as to
why they should avoid clearly-marked bootlegged games, when we're all sitting there with cheap copies of his earlier CDs ... we'd just look like hypocrites.
PCEWorks' "QUINTESSENTIAL BOOTLEGS" includes the latest revision to make his Sapphire counterfeit guide-proof:
https://pceworks.wordpress.com/2016/11/03/quintessential-works/
Akumajo Dracula X "raw" version (no unique packaging):
https://pceworks.wordpress.com/2016/11/02/akumajo-dracula-x/
Spriggan, Spriggan mkII, Steam Hearts, Nexzr, and Super Real Mahjong PII-III Custom Special, all without unique packaging or PCEWorks branding:
https://pceworks.wordpress.com/2016/12/18/xmas-double-feature/
Plus recent additions like Dungeon Master Theron's Quest, Bomberman, another batch of Kaze Kiri/Sylphia/Renny Blaster/Fausette Amour without unique packing.
QuoteAnd, it's going to be hard to "educate fellow video game enthusiasts" as to why they should avoid clearly-marked bootlegged games, when we're all sitting there with cheap copies of his earlier CDs ... we'd just look like hypocrites.
The whole point of this thread is that he's gone back to making repros as close as he can to the originals
without any indication that they're counterfeit. This has led to at least hundreds of people to pay hundreds of dollars or more for what they believed to be authentic copies of Sapphire, to the point where they were found in Japanese shops. If he's going about it the same as before, then he's been selling these as legit across the internet for a while already.
The moral aspect of whether selling bootlegs of any kind is a parallel issue. The bootleg HuCards are not passable whatsoever and if they stopped tomorrow, they wouldn't be flipped as authentic for years afterward.
Those Dracula X bootlegs make no effort to look any different whatsoever. What the fuck. I'm so glad I already own a copy of the damn game, jesus christ.
I hate these things so much I haven't checked those FB groups in like months
Quote from: guest on 12/18/2016, 12:57 PMQuoteAnd, it's going to be hard to "educate fellow video game enthusiasts" as to why they should avoid clearly-marked bootlegged games, when we're all sitting there with cheap copies of his earlier CDs ... we'd just look like hypocrites.
The whole point of this thread is that he's gone back to making repros as close as he can to the originals without any indication that they're counterfeit. This has led to at least hundreds of people to pay hundreds of dollars or more for what they believed to be authentic copies of Sapphire, to the point where they were found in Japanese shops. If he's going about it the same as before, then he's been selling these as legit across the internet for a while already.
The moral aspect of whether selling bootlegs of any kind is a parallel issue. The bootleg HuCards are not passable whatsoever and if they stopped tomorrow, they wouldn't be flipped as authentic for years afterward.
Indeed, there are multiple issues with PCEWorks that folks should be educated on:
(1) Profiteering. Leaving aside the ethics of "reproductions" (and regardless of whether they are clearly labeled/marketed as such) we can address profiteering. I believe there is a moral distinction between (a) a fan selling a modest number of reproductions (labeled and marketed as such) at modest profit (that is, slightly above cost of materials/shipping + labor) vs. (b) a larger-scale business making massive profit (above cost of materials/labor).
(2) Deception/authenticity of product. Passing off bootleg discs as (a) original items or (b) legitimate/sanctioned pressings. As we know, this is a problem not only for initial purchaser, but for all subsequent reselling/purchasing of product. I would argue that even "PCEWorks-branded" releases present a problem because they have an "air of authenticity" to them... this is easily solved if all items are clearly labeled and marketed as contemporary reproductions (non-sanctioned by IP holder) and are easily identified as such.
(3) Intellectual Property. The ethics of non-profit and/or for-profit reproductions of intellectual property is an important issue, but does not have to be central to a critique of Tobias/PCEWorks. I listed 1&2 above in an attempt to find "common ground" with "everyone", despite their own views on reproducing/distributing intellectual property without permission.
Quote from: guest on 12/18/2016, 12:57 PMThe whole point of this thread is that he's gone back to making repros as close as he can to the originals without any indication that they're counterfeit. This has led to at least hundreds of people to pay hundreds of dollars or more for what they believed to be authentic copies of Sapphire, to the point where they were found in Japanese shops. If he's going about it the same as before, then he's been selling these as legit across the internet for a while already.
Oh, crap, that does sound like he's up to his bad-old-tricks again. ](*,)
Now, both his manual and the CD istelf *do* have PCEWorks logos, see ...
https://pceworks.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/sapphire_3.jpg
But you can't tell from the *outside* that they're fake.
Sounds like a scam to target the CIB-sealed collectards, to me.
Quote from: guest on 12/18/2016, 01:31 PMThose Dracula X bootlegs make no effort to look any different whatsoever. What the fuck. I'm so glad I already own a copy of the damn game, jesus christ.
???
They come in a box that's totally-different to the normal PCE jewel-case, and they have a PCEWorks logo stamped on the CD ... how could any *careful* buyer mix them up?
Quote from: elmer on 12/18/2016, 12:49 PMEducate people about what?
I don't think that this is going to be a popular sentiment, but I'm having a hard-time in maintaining my "outrage" in the face of the events here at PCEngineFX in the last year.
The general-consensus here seems to be that ignoring copyright and making personal copies of games by burning CDs or using a Turbo Everdrive is OK.
But, to keep the forum "legally clean", we're not supposed to put links to free digital downloads.
OTOH, we've now got a thread where "respected" forum members are charging money for unlicensed bootleg copies of HuCard games (breaking the same copyright law) and it's OK to put links to their site and ordering info, and people here seem to love them.
So the forum now seems to approve of bootlegged game production for money.
I understand that there is historical reason to dislike Tobias and PCEWorks (and recent-history at that with his release of translations), but IMHO, we've destroyed our standing to complain too-much about him by buying-and-selling-off old-stock of his CDs on this very forum.
We could still hold our heads up high when BlueBMW bought up Tobias's "flawed" Sapphire discs and gave them away for free ... but last year's selling ("to recoup costs") of the CDs showed that these days we're just complaining about the price, and not the bootlegging itself.
So, if the main complaint that's left is that Tobias charges more than people here think is fair for his "product", and that he's an absolute ass that has outright lied and tried to decieve people, and that he doesn't respect the wishes of translators ...
... then I suspect that it might be hard to find a YouTube "personality" to take up arms against him for a crusade that seems more "personal" than "moral-high-ground".
And, it's going to be hard to "educate fellow video game enthusiasts" as to why they should avoid clearly-marked bootlegged games, when we're all sitting there with cheap copies of his earlier CDs ... we'd just look like hypocrites.
Nailed it. These issues have really turned me away from the NEC groups here and on FB. I just don't get how some people are deemed ok to bootleg while others are not and people get straight up flamed and shamed on here and facebook groups for picking the wrong bootleggers to support. It's all the same. Nobody has the right to reproduce any of this stuff more so than anyone else
Quote from: PunkCryborg on 12/18/2016, 02:08 PMNailed it. These issues have really turned me away from the NEC groups here and on FB. I just don't get how some people are deemed ok to bootleg while others are not and people get straight up flamed and shamed on here and facebook groups for picking the wrong bootleggers to support. It's all the same. Nobody has the right to reproduce any of this stuff more so than anyone else
It took me some time to finish my prior post, but read it. I think I addressed elmer's (and your) point.
Hint: You're both wrong! Just kidding :) I was trying to establish common ground amongst all of us, Elmer and you included.
Quote from: elmer on 12/18/2016, 01:52 PMOh, crap, that does sound like he's up to his bad-old-tricks again. ](*,)
Now, both his manual and the CD istelf *do* have PCEWorks logos, see ...
https://pceworks.files.wordpress.com/2016/11/sapphire_3.jpg
But you can't tell from the *outside* that they're fake.
Sounds like a scam to target the CIB-sealed collectards, to me.
I couldn't see those new brandings when I looked on my phone. It's not as bad, but most sellers I've seen on yahoo.jp now just use a stock photo and the other PCEWorks branded bootlegs with non-unique packaging are selling on eBay for the same price or more ("NEW sealed!") than real copies. Part of the problem is that he purposely came up with his latest company name and designed the logo to look like something that would have been on PCE games bitd. Not putting stuff like "2016 REPRO" on the outside as people like Sparky does is intentional to make them passable and more valuable to resellers. Having the PCEWorks branding on non-unique packaging has also created a third market of collectards who view them as rarer and more valuable than originals.
My main concern with Tobias' products in general is the intent and success for many years to pass off bootlegs as real. The problem with his overall success and the lesser appeal of the titles with unique packaging, is that it encourages him to continue mixing the secondary market full of bootlegs being sold as real copies.
My second biggest concern is his brazen publishing and selling of hacks/translations/misc homebrew projects without permission and against the wishes of the project teams. He is only going to get fan project members in legal trouble and has already discouraged people from continuing with various PCE projects. The bootleg HuCards are only being sold loaded with fan projects when they have the permission of those who made them.
There is a world of difference between what turbokon & friends are doing and what Tobias is doing and the long term damage which has already been done. Because of the many consequences of Tobias' actions for so many years now, the ethics of selling bootlegs is only one of many issues, although it is still the only one when it comes to those bootleg HuCards. Even when people argue that the HuCards should be cheaper, Tobias' pricing is still that much less "fair".
QuoteQuote from: guest on 12/18/2016, 01:31 PMThose Dracula X bootlegs make no effort to look any different whatsoever. What the fuck. I'm so glad I already own a copy of the damn game, jesus christ.
???
They come in a box that's totally-different to the normal PCE jewel-case, and they have a PCEWorks logo stamped on the CD ... how could any *careful* buyer mix them up?
The new "raw" version looks just like an authentic sealed copy:
https://pceworks.wordpress.com/2016/11/02/akumajo-dracula-x/
While the guy certainly seems like a shitbag, I have absolutely no interest in doing some kind of "expose" video on his bullshit business. The VAST majority of people who buy his shit know that it's fake and don't care because they're collectards. For me or anyone else with "more reach" to make a video about him, no matter how negatively it paints him, will just serve to increase awareness of his products, and most-likely drive sales. I also have no interest in inviting drama to my channel. I have to deal with enough bullshit from the mouth-breathers of the world in the comments sections of my videos as it is. ("YOU TALK ABOUT THE LAUNCH OF THE PLAYSTATION BUT DON'T EVEN MENTION FINAL FANTASY VII. FUCKING KILL YOURSELF YOU COCK SUCKING FAGET. STOP MAKING VIDEOS BECAUSE YOUR A FUCKING IDIOT.")
Quote from: CGQuarterly on 12/18/2016, 03:13 PMWhile the guy certainly seems like a shitbag, I have absolutely no interest in doing some kind of "expose" video on his bullshit business. The VAST majority of people who buy his shit know that it's fake and don't care because they're collectards. For me or anyone else with "more reach" to make a video about him, no matter how negatively it paints him, will just serve to increase awareness of his products, and most-likely drive sales. I also have no interest in inviting drama to my channel. I have to deal with enough bullshit from the mouth-breathers of the world in the comments sections of my videos as it is. ("YOU TALK ABOUT THE LAUNCH OF THE PLAYSTATION BUT DON'T EVEN MENTION FINAL FANTASY VII. FUCKING KILL YOURSELF YOU COCK SUCKING FAGET. STOP MAKING VIDEOS BECAUSE YOUR A FUCKING IDIOT.")
Yeah, I hear you.
I guess, as far as a PSA is concerned, it is best to talk about the issue in general, without ever citing specific scoundrels (past or present).
Thanks for helping me! I know what I'm going to work on now (for fun).
:)
Quote from: CGQuarterly on 12/18/2016, 03:13 PMWhile the guy certainly seems like a shitbag, I have absolutely no interest in doing some kind of "expose" video on his bullshit business. The VAST majority of people who buy his shit know that it's fake and don't care because they're collectards. For me or anyone else with "more reach" to make a video about him, no matter how negatively it paints him, will just serve to increase awareness of his products, and most-likely drive sales. I also have no interest in inviting drama to my channel. I have to deal with enough bullshit from the mouth-breathers of the world in the comments sections of my videos as it is. ("YOU TALK ABOUT THE LAUNCH OF THE PLAYSTATION BUT DON'T EVEN MENTION FINAL FANTASY VII. FUCKING KILL YOURSELF YOU COCK SUCKING FAGET. STOP MAKING VIDEOS BECAUSE YOUR A FUCKING IDIOT.")
Keep in mind I know NOTHING about maintaining a successful youtube channel. You could disable comments, maybe that's a death sentence though.
Also that example real or not is hilarious.
While I understand why Tobias is hated around here, and I know he has done some pretty selfish things, there is an issue that I would like to bring up here.
I live on a fairly modest monthly budget, and that makes it extremely difficult to justify buying Turbo games right now, because eBay sellers are charging obscene amounts for even common games. When I first entered the Turbo scene, a copy of Neutopia II was selling for about $100. Now that's what a copy of the first game is being listed at.
With that being the situation, there is no way I could buy a legit copy of games like Beyond Shadowgate, Dynastic Hero, or Dungeon Explorer II, and still feel comfortable about it. I could burn a CD-R, but we know that those are not great for the lasers in our systems, and frankly, look butt-ugly when the game's on the shelf between plays.
Tobias' repros are not cheap, but I can still get four games for less than the price of one (legit copy), and it's professionally pressed, printed, and looks like an actual product that I can feel happy to have on my shelf and in my CD drive. For the first time, I have a chance to actually feel like I "own" these games. That would never happen if I were left to the nonexistent mercies of eBay sellers.
Should Tobias try to make his repros look legit? No. Should he profit off of the homebrew community without permission? Of course not. However, I'd much rather deal with him than the eBay sellers. In fact, I'd argue that it's because of them that we have this situation in the first place. Tobias provides a service to people who want these games but cannot afford them, and I am happy to support that...up to a point. I won't be purchasing his unauthorized copies of fan translations or homebrews out of respect for those who make them.
Does that make me a selfish person? Yeah, probably, but if it means I can own and experience "rare games" like Dynastic Hero without breaking the bank or funding swindling resellers, I can live with that. Games are meant to be played, not bought and sold like stocks.
Quote from: esteban on 12/18/2016, 01:44 PMIndeed, there are multiple issues with PCEWorks that folks should be educated on:
(1) Profiteering. Leaving aside the ethics of "reproductions" (and regardless of whether they are clearly labeled/marketed as such) we can address profiteering. I believe there is a moral distinction between (a) a fan selling a modest number of reproductions (labeled and marketed as such) at modest profit (that is, slightly above cost of materials/shipping + labor) vs. (b) a larger-scale business making massive profit (above cost of materials/labor).
Yes, I do see the moral distinction there.
But when you're engaged in act (a), then I believe that you've lost all moral-authority to get up-in-arms about act (b).
I would say that that also applies to the community that supports act (a).
BTW ... where I'm from, "profiteering" is usually frowned-upon as the act of making excessive profits in times of shortage when something is *needed*, like food supplies in an emergency, or military items during a war.
A store that tripled the price of Twinkies because the factory had discontinued them would be seen as a bunch of assholes ... but it could also be considered as just a case of supply-vs-demand, or that horrible phrase "market forces".
As could the actions of a certain large company in creating an artifical-shortage of NES Classic Edition consoles in order to increase the hype surrounding them and to raise their profile in people's minds.
Quote(2) Deception/authenticity of product. Passing off bootleg discs as (a) original items or (b) legitimate/sanctioned pressings. As we know, this is a problem not only for initial purchaser, but for all subsequent reselling/purchasing of product. I would argue that even "PCEWorks-branded" releases present a problem because they have an "air of authenticity" to them... this is easily solved if all items are clearly labeled and marketed as contemporary reproductions (non-sanctioned by IP holder) and are easily identified as such.
Tobias's latest trick of only putting his PCEWorks branding on the inside is definitely a lousy move, and is bound to lead to deceptive sellers passing them off as the real thing.
What's sad, is that if he is called on it, I can see him actually providing evidence to show that his customers actually asked him to make things look more "original" so that they can get little stiffies from staring at their shelves full of unplayed-games.
Now, if you choose to believe that his releases have an "air of authenticity", then I can only say "caveat emptor".
Back in the UK we had laws against deceptive advertising.
From what I can see here in America, those kind of protections are believed to be "socialist/evil".
Quote(3) Intellectual Property. The ethics of non-profit and/or for-profit reproductions of intellectual property is an important issue, but does not have to be central to a critique of Tobias/PCEWorks. I listed 1&2 above in an attempt to find "common ground" with "everyone", despite their own views on reproducing/distributing intellectual property without permission.
OK, in order to find "common ground", I'll refrain from commenting about people who accept money for distributing intellectual-property that they don't own. :wink:
Quote from: Arjak on 12/18/2016, 05:54 PMWhile I understand why Tobias is hated around here, and I know he has done some pretty selfish things, there is an issue that I would like to bring up here.
I live on a fairly modest monthly budget, and that makes it extremely difficult to justify buying Turbo games right now, because eBay sellers are charging obscene amounts for even common games. When I first entered the Turbo scene, a copy of Neutopia II was selling for about $100. Now that's what a copy of the first game is being listed at.
With that being the situation, there is no way I could buy a legit copy of games like Beyond Shadowgate, Dynastic Hero, or Dungeon Explorer II, and still feel comfortable about it. I could burn a CD-R, but we know that those are not great for the lasers in our systems, and frankly, look butt-ugly when the game's on the shelf between plays.
Tobias' repros are not cheap, but I can still get four games for less than the price of one (legit copy), and it's professionally pressed, printed, and looks like an actual product that I can feel happy to have on my shelf and in my CD drive. For the first time, I have a chance to actually feel like I "own" these games. That would never happen if I were left to the nonexistent mercies of eBay sellers.
Should Tobias try to make his repros look legit? No. Should he profit off of the homebrew community without permission? Of course not. However, I'd much rather deal with him than the eBay sellers. In fact, I'd argue that it's because of them that we have this situation in the first place. Tobias provides a service to people who want these games but cannot afford them, and I am happy to support that...up to a point. I won't be purchasing his unauthorized copies of fan translations or homebrews out of respect for those who make them.
Does that make me a selfish person? Yeah, probably, but if it means I can own and experience "rare games" like Dynastic Hero without breaking the bank or funding swindling resellers, I can live with that. Games are meant to be played, not bought and sold like stocks.
I'm not attacking you personally, but I think your perspective (because you gave an example) should be put into context. So.. don't take this personally. (Also, please read the following in Laurence Fishburne's voice. Thanks).
1) What right do you have to anything? I mean, complaining that you can't afford this or that, when it
isn't a matter of life or death, or even the difference between eating unhealthy junk food vs eating healthy (i.e. more expensive), or not having the income to move out of the ghetto <- better quality of life by being safer. You're talking about physically owning games, to play on your old relic of a system. You have no inherent right to that. And in context, you have every opportunity to play or "own" any of these games via emulation, CD-R, or flashcard. So this whole, "I can't afford it" thing seems petty, especially knowing how expensive these systems are to collect for -> this isn't some surprise to you. Even if you did buy the game from PCEWORKS, it's not the original. It's still a fantasy of owning the original, which really isn't any different than CD-Rs, flashcard, or emulation. It's fantasy shelf candy.
Don't get me wrong. From a human-science perspective, I understand the
experience with the relationship of owning a physical copy of the game. I understand that the experience of the game is more than just the controller and interaction with the game logic; it's the feel of the real controller, the sounds of the CD drive seeking, the act of taking the game out of its case, parsing through the manual, and placing it in the system - the physical affirmation of the system sitting in front of you; the aesthetics.
All of it. But it's still a choice, not a right or something owed. And you have other options that aren't preventing you from playing
any of these games - only your own view that's preventing you from enjoying them via other options.
QuoteShould Tobias try to make his repros look legit? No. Should he profit off of the homebrew community without permission? Of course not. However, I'd much rather deal with him than the eBay sellers.
Before I continue, you might say - "But hey Mr. Bnuts, you see it differently because you're directly affected by this". I've come to terms with all of this. And.. I don't give a shit about him anymore, relation to anything I've worked on. I've reconciled it, internally. But.. this quote right here - what exactly are you saying? I'll tell you what I see...
2) You feel bad that Tobias cheats people with deception, and you feel bad that he rips off homebrewers.. but none of that compares to the
evil of having to deal with ebay sellers of the real products??? Do you realize the absurdity of that statement? I know you're trying to rationalize it with the minimal amount of guilt or feeling shitty about it, but in the end you pretty much just said, "I feel a
little bad about what he's doing, but not bad enough to not to support Tobias". Your nod to the opposition is just that - for show. And that's what it boils down to for you. And if that's how you feel, then just say it. Don't shift the blame on ebay sellers. That's ridiculous. No one is forcing you to do anything - you made a choice.
Own it. Don't squirm around it because it make your conscience feel better.
QuoteDoes that make me a selfish person? Yeah, probably, but if it means I can own and experience "rare games" like Dynastic Hero without breaking the bank or funding swindling resellers, I can live with that. Games are meant to be played, not bought and sold like stocks.
Emulation destroys this whole argument. You DO have the games available to you. This means you have choices. Does it make you selfish? It think it makes you
self-righteous; you think you're owed something, that you have an inherent the right to something or some game.. for whatever your justification is. But you're
not owed anything in relation to this system. Buying his items isn't just a decision on the morals and ethics of him profiting on someone else's work (Capcom, NEC, whoever) - it's the fact that when you purchase something from this specific man, you're not only supporting what he does, you're elevating/promoting what he represents. Fraud, deception, robbing from the very community that gave it something special. You need to
own that too.
Recap: I'm not saying don't buy from him. I'm saying that if you
make that choice, you need to
own it for what it is - and not justify it with bullshit, to make your conscience feel better.
I'm not pro-repro/bootlegs/etc and don't think that selling one type of bootleg is fine while selling a similar type is absolutely wrong. But it's not a singlular issue with only two sides to be on.
Many published PC Engine homebrew games have various copyrighted logos on them which are used without permission. This site has ads and uses various copyrighted media without permission and once sold Turbo goods. I don't think that it is exactly the same as selling PCEWorks games, but if you believe that making money from using someone else's intellectual property without permission is stealing, then it all is. Technically, buying and selling used games is robbing publishers, especially today with all of the scalping going on.
I don't think that many people here think that any kind of bootlegging is fine, but you also can't really be involved in anything related to old games today without supporting some form of copyright infringement. The PRGE had bootlegs sold at most booths which were selling games. Many tables were for businesses which only sold bootlegs. One asshole was selling only bootleg Everdrives, without even changing the name. He probably just bought those crappy Chinese knock-offs in bulk and put his ugly labels on them.
I still haven't seen any pics of the insides of the latest PCEWorks games, so we don't even know yet if they're branded or not. I just want people to be aware that the number titles you might be buying on eBay without even suspecting could be bootlegs has suddenly increased dramatically and at this rate, will include any PCE game worth more than $60 by the end of 2017.
No company can make any significant amount of money with their old IPs anymore with PCE reprints. They don't make money on any of their old copies being sold around on ebay either. Yes it is their intellectual property but bootlegs aren't directly competing with them or causing significant revenue loss (I don't agree too much with copyright laws too, I think they need some reforms but that's for another time...). I support bootlegging (aka REPRODUCTIONS for people who don't like to admit it), with some caveats...
First of all, I believe that a bootleg must clearly be marked as such since doing a perfect copy of a disc and its packaging makes defrauding someone wanting ORIGINAL, made-in-japan 1980-90 pressings of games very easy. Considering that games are significant cultural items I think that doing that is bullshit on all levels.
Secondly, and this is something that people might not agree with, the bootleg musn't be sold for a premium! The morality of a pirate operation goes up with the price. If sold at cost, it's not really a problem, if sold between cost and original MSRP, it's nothing to complain about because you have cost overheads and a reasonable amount of profit isn't all that bad, but if done with prices approaching the expensive original copies then it reeks of pure greed and I'm definitely not ok with it. Reminder that I'm talking about games in formats/platforms that are abandoned and not likely to be touched again by the original IP owners. Worse if includes collector's trinkets to justify an unfair price.
I think tobias sucks and that he can shove his LOVE OF IT up his ass. He violated the first point to be able to scam people HIMSELF at first (sapphire with faked hudson soft letter), then started doing clearly marked repros to soften the backlash (and at-cost copies to shut up PCEFX about it), waiting for calm waters again to repeat what he did with sapphire, only this time he'll sell undistinguishable booties to people who will most likely scam people knowingly. I'm willing to bet he did that to be able to transfer the blame to his consumers while scamming people himself on ebay and forums with puppet accounts. Not a stretch considering his hudson letter stunt.
It's also very obvious that he repeatedly violates the second point I've made and since everyone knows what he has done for the past few years I'll just post a pic of a christmas special product he's selling... hmm let's branch for the weeaboo collectard market for the money love of it!!!!!!!
(https://pceworks.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/mahjong_dreams_06.jpg?w=1200&h=&crop=1)
tl:dr -- quit being lazy and read everything... FOR THE LOVE OF IT!!!
Double post: I just read that the Mahjong Blablabla Special box will have panties of random color and "there's no way of telling the color from the outside, so don't ask us."
If you think that this is the same as the pre-flashed hucard booties being sold here then I really don't know what to say.
Quote from: guest on 12/18/2016, 07:09 PMI'm not pro-repro/bootlegs/etc and don't think that selling one type of bootleg is fine while selling a similar type is absolutely wrong. But it's not a singlular issue with only two sides to be on.
Many published PC Engine homebrew games have various copyrighted logos on them which are used without permission. This site has ads and uses various copyrighted media without permission and once sold Turbo goods. I don't think that it is exactly the same as selling PCEWorks games, but if you believe that making money from using someone else's intellectual property without permission is stealing, then it all is. Technically, buying and selling used games is robbing publishers, especially today with all of the scalping going on.
I don't think that many people here think that any kind of bootlegging is fine, but you also can't really be involved in anything related to old games today without supporting some form of copyright infringement. The PRGE had bootlegs sold at most booths which were selling games. Many tables were for businesses which only sold bootlegs. One asshole was selling only bootleg Everdrives, without even changing the name. He probably just bought those crappy Chinese knock-offs in bulk and put his ugly labels on them.
I still haven't seen any pics of the insides of the latest PCEWorks games, so we don't even know yet if they're branded or not. I just want people to be aware that the number titles you might be buying on eBay without even suspecting could be bootlegs has suddenly increased dramatically and at this rate, will include any PCE game worth more than $60 by the end of 2017.
And this is much appreciated, at least by me even if I rarely buy sealed games (which seems to be the main way these deceive). Thanks for the heads up.
Quote from: Gypsy on 12/18/2016, 09:21 PMQuote from: CrackTiger on 12/18/2016, 07:09 PMI still haven't seen any pics of the insides of the latest PCEWorks games, so we don't even know yet if they're branded or not. I just want people to be aware that the number titles you might be buying on eBay without even suspecting could be bootlegs has suddenly increased dramatically and at this rate, will include any PCE game worth more than $60 by the end of 2017.
And this is much appreciated, at least by me even if I rarely buy sealed games (which seems to be the main way these deceive). Thanks for the heads up.
People will sell the bootlegs at the same or at a higher price, that's the whole point of it, sealed, unsealed, loose. If they're doing that with stupid boxsets and still in print homebrews, I don't think this will change with unmarked repros. You sure about that appreciation of yours?
Quote from: guest on 12/18/2016, 09:29 PMQuote from: Gypsy on 12/18/2016, 09:21 PMQuote from: guest on 12/18/2016, 07:09 PMI still haven't seen any pics of the insides of the latest PCEWorks games, so we don't even know yet if they're branded or not. I just want people to be aware that the number titles you might be buying on eBay without even suspecting could be bootlegs has suddenly increased dramatically and at this rate, will include any PCE game worth more than $60 by the end of 2017.
And this is much appreciated, at least by me even if I rarely buy sealed games (which seems to be the main way these deceive). Thanks for the heads up.
People will sell the bootlegs at the same or at a higher price, that's the whole point of it, sealed, unsealed, loose. If they're doing that with stupid boxsets and still in print homebrews, I don't think this will change with unmarked repros. You sure about that appreciation of yours?
I think you misunderstood. I don't want repros. Ever. So I'm glad for the heads up that some slightly more deceptive ones exist. If it's an open copy, I'll be able to tell and not buy it.
"Pantsu edition". Tobias is a shitbag, but he's very creative ! WTHF !
Some PCE games are still available as downloads (Virtual console, etc.), so there's still some money to loose for the copyright holders.
As I said before once or twice, I don't want anything touched by Tobias, even if it comes for free.
Quote from: Gypsy on 12/18/2016, 04:26 PMAlso that example real or not is hilarious.
That isn't a quote of a single comment, but rather a pastiche of two or three of them. The vast majority of the people who comment on my videos are awesome, but there are also a few people who need to pull a plastic bag over their head and go to sleep.
I had a friend that was selling bootleg football jerseys for $40 a pop and he got a cease and desist letter from the NFL. He only sold about 100 before the letter came, but it scared him to stopping really quick.
I looked at the link to Raw Dracula X, pretty sure Konami would have an issue with it, since they still sell this game in newer formats. I am not a snitch and I don't have the time or care to contact Konami, but I image that would be the quick way to have this stopped. One off eBay sales could still happen, but not largely advertised professional looking website sales. Just my suggestion to those who may be legitimately upset over this.
Quote from: elmer on 12/18/2016, 12:49 PMI don't think that this is going to be a popular sentiment, but I'm having a hard-time in maintaining my "outrage" in the face of the events here at PCEngineFX in the last year.
I am 100% in agreement with everything you said elmer!
Quote from: esteban on 12/18/2016, 11:18 AMFuck me. We need someone who gets more than 19 views a video to help educate fellow video game enthusiasts
Hey NOW!!!
There are big Youtube channels discussing ridiculous toy bootlegs to educate the masses (and for having a cheap laugh). Why not for once discussing bootleg video games?
How could there seriously be anybody afraid? I also don't get the thing about "giving bootleggers more PR". Those who WANT bootlegs will get them anyway, but others who would like to avoid filling the money hungry mouths of gougers by buying fakes need information in first place.
Quote from: guest on 12/18/2016, 12:57 PMThe whole point of this thread is that he's gone back to making repros as close as he can to the originals without any indication that they're counterfeit. This has led to at least hundreds of people to pay hundreds of dollars or more for what they believed to be authentic copies of Sapphire, to the point where they were found in Japanese shops. If he's going about it the same as before, then he's been selling these as legit across the internet for a while already.
PCEWorks' "QUINTESSENTIAL BOOTLEGS" includes the latest revision to make his Sapphire counterfeit guide-proof:
https://pceworks.wordpress.com/2016/11/03/quintessential-works/
Akumajo Dracula X "raw" version (no unique packaging):
https://pceworks.wordpress.com/2016/11/02/akumajo-dracula-x/
Spriggan, Spriggan mkII, Steam Hearts, Nexzr, and Super Real Mahjong PII-III Custom Special, all without unique packaging or PCEWorks branding:
https://pceworks.wordpress.com/2016/12/18/xmas-double-feature/
...
I still haven't seen any pics of the insides of the latest PCEWorks games, so we don't even know yet if they're branded or not. I just want people to be aware that the number titles you might be buying on eBay without even suspecting could be bootlegs has suddenly increased dramatically and at this rate, will include any PCE game worth more than $60 by the end of 2017.
If you actually take a look at the screenshots of the CDs and the back of the manuals in *all* of those new packages, they *all* have a PCEWorks logo on them that distinguishes them from the original games.
He's made the *outside* look just like the originals, which is a lousy move, but the games can be distinguished from the originals by opening up the jewel case and looking at the CD.
As I said earlier ... "caveat emptor".
Quote from: guest on 12/18/2016, 12:57 PMThe moral aspect of whether selling bootlegs of any kind is a parallel issue. The bootleg HuCards are not passable whatsoever and if they stopped tomorrow, they wouldn't be flipped as authentic for years afterward.
OK, again, ignoring the moral issue of bootlegging for the moment ... his new-production CDs can't be sold as authentic, either, if you to open up the jewel case and look at the face of the CD.
I thought that this forum was for game-players and looked down on sealed-in-box collectards???
Quote from: guest on 12/18/2016, 07:09 PMMany published PC Engine homebrew games have various copyrighted logos on them which are used without permission. This site has ads and uses various copyrighted media without permission and once sold Turbo goods. I don't think that it is exactly the same as selling PCEWorks games, but if you believe that making money from using someone else's intellectual property without permission is stealing, then it all is.
Technically, buying and selling used games is robbing publishers, especially today with all of the scalping going on.
Huh? Now you're taking your argument a bit too far.
There are various laws in place for "fair-use" of certain items, and legitimately-produced games come under the doctrine of "first-sale".
Publishers already price-in the effect of second-hand sales of legitimate games into their pricing model.
People using Hudson or NECs trademarked logos, or their CD boot code that's on every homebrew CD, *is* a "naughty", and the owners of those trademarks/code could legally stop the homebrew folks any thime that they wished to do so.
Quote from: guest on 12/18/2016, 12:57 PMI don't think that many people here think that any kind of bootlegging is fine, but you also can't really be involved in anything related to old games today without supporting some form of copyright infringement. The PRGE had bootlegs sold at most booths which were selling games. Many tables were for businesses which only sold bootlegs. One asshole was selling only bootleg Everdrives, without even changing the name. He probably just bought those crappy Chinese knock-offs in bulk and put his ugly labels on them.
So we're in a video-game world where bootleg production of old out-of-print games has become "normal".
This is my point ... I don't like it, I don't support it, but I have a hard time feeling much "outrage" anymore when it *is* obviously supported by so many folks here.
If the original copyright owners don't care enough to send out a C&D, then what is my standing to try to fight their battle for them?
Remember ... Konami *was* informed about the PCEWorks release of DraculaX, and basically just said "cool" and then did nothing to stop Tobias.
Someone should send a letter to Konami asking for the permission to repro their old games without paying them royalties. Just to see what happens.
Quote from: guest on 12/19/2016, 01:17 PMSomeone should send a letter to Konami asking for the permission to repro their old games without paying them royalties. Just to see what happens.
Go ahead.
Quote from: TurboXray on 12/18/2016, 06:52 PM1) What right do you have to anything? I mean, complaining that you can't afford this or that, when it isn't a matter of life or death, or even the difference between eating unhealthy junk food vs eating healthy (i.e. more expensive), or not having the income to move out of the ghetto <- better quality of life by being safer. You're talking about physically owning games, to play on your old relic of a system. You have no inherent right to that. And in context, you have every opportunity to play or "own" any of these games via emulation, CD-R, or flashcard. So this whole, "I can't afford it" thing seems petty, especially knowing how expensive these systems are to collect for -> this isn't some surprise to you. Even if you did buy the game from PCEWORKS, it's not the original. It's still a fantasy of owning the original, which really isn't any different than CD-Rs, flashcard, or emulation. It's fantasy shelf candy.
I never claimed that owning these games was my right. It is indeed a "want" and not a "need." I could indeed just burn a game to one of my Taiyo-Yuden CD-Rs, and in all honesty, I should. The problem is, as you yourself put it...
Quote from: TurboXray on 12/18/2016, 06:52 PMDon't get me wrong. From a human-science perspective, I understand the experience with the relationship of owning a physical copy of the game. I understand that the experience of the game is more than just the controller and interaction with the game logic; it's the feel of the real controller, the sounds of the CD drive seeking, the act of taking the game out of its case, parsing through the manual, and placing it in the system - the physical affirmation of the system sitting in front of you; the aesthetics. All of it. But it's still a choice, not a right or something owed. And you have other options that aren't preventing you from playing any of these games - only your own view that's preventing you from enjoying them via other options.
Maybe it's because I have a bit of "collectard" in me, but I have a fascination with high quality game repros. They give me the same thrill I get from buying a new game; to be able to read through an elaborate manual, to put an actual cart or CD in my system; it's just not the same with emulation.
You are correct though, it is just an illusion, but for me, as a classic gamer, it's a very powerful one.
Quote from: TurboXray on 12/18/2016, 06:52 PM2) You feel bad that Tobias cheats people with deception, and you feel bad that he rips off homebrewers.. but none of that compares to the evil of having to deal with ebay sellers of the real products??? Do you realize the absurdity of that statement? I know you're trying to rationalize it with the minimal amount of guilt or feeling shitty about it, but in the end you pretty much just said, "I feel a little bad about what he's doing, but not bad enough to not to support Tobias". Your nod to the opposition is just that - for show. And that's what it boils down to for you. And if that's how you feel, then just say it. Don't shift the blame on ebay sellers. That's ridiculous. No one is forcing you to do anything - you made a choice. Own it. Don't squirm around it because it make your conscience feel better.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold up there. I really do feel that eBay sellers are a major factor in why we have this situation to begin with. They are the ones who jack up the prices for original games, giving Tobias a reason to make these bootlegs in the first place. They are the majority of the ones trying to pass off these bootlegs as real to make a quick payday. They are likely the ones getting Tobias to make 1:1 replicas of the original packaging. I am pretty sure that they are part of the problem.
But...
Quote from: TurboXray on 12/18/2016, 06:52 PMBuying his items isn't just a decision on the morals and ethics of him profiting on someone else's work (Capcom, NEC, whoever) - it's the fact that when you purchase something from this specific man, you're not only supporting what he does, you're elevating/promoting what he represents. Fraud, deception, robbing from the very community that gave it something special. You need to own that too.
When it comes down to it, this is the real issue here, and you're right. I am putting my selfishness ahead of the community's interests, and that's not fair to you guys.
You've changed my mind, Bonknuts. I will not buy any more of Tobias' bootlegs. I'll burn Taiyo-Yuden CD-Rs instead. I need to own up to what I'm doing and not make excuses.
Quote from: guest on 12/19/2016, 01:17 PMSomeone should send a letter to Konami asking for the permission to repro their old games without paying them royalties. Just to see what happens.
That would be hilarious, I'd love to see a copy of the letter that they got back! :wink:
It *might* be enough to wake the beast to the point where some C&Ds finally get sent out ... but probably not.
Arjak: My point wasn't to change your mind. I personally hold no ill will to anyone who buys stuff from him. My point is; just understand the implications of your choices - in relation to this guy. That's all. Don't sugar coat it or bullshit justifications to make yourself feel better. I'm human. I understand that sometimes "want" outweighs or overrides morality and ethics; I'm not perfect. You think I don't find the packaging and such he has setup/made as desirable? All bullshit aside, I think it's cool and I do wish I had them. But for him specifically, I know what that choice of buying from him means. And that's a choice I can't own.
Quote from: elmer on 12/19/2016, 01:52 PMQuote from: guest on 12/19/2016, 01:17 PMSomeone should send a letter to Konami asking for the permission to repro their old games without paying them royalties. Just to see what happens.
That would be hilarious, I'd love to see a copy of the letter that they got back! :wink:
It *might* be enough to get the wake the beast to the point where some C&Ds finally get sent out ... but probably not.
Unless tobias is making a Dracula X pachinko machine I don't think he has anything to worry about.
I'm actually more pissed that some fag was selling bootleg Everdrives at PRGE than I am about Tobias. Anyone who buys his shit knows they're buying bootlegs (unless they're retarded).
Quote from: guest on 12/19/2016, 03:23 PMQuote from: CGQuarterly on 12/19/2016, 03:08 PMI'm actually more pissed that some fag was selling bootleg Everdrives at PRGE than I am about Tobias. Anyone who buys his shit knows they're buying bootlegs (unless they're retarded).
Bootleg everdrives? Ive never heard of this... Did they at least come with an energy drink?
No that would cost extra.
For me, any thinking about Tobias has to start with the repeating of two facts.
1) He once sold fake Sapphires as authentic copies in an undeniable act of fraud.
2) He has repeatedly used community projects without permission or acknowledgement of the sources.
Maybe we're only rationalizing when we go in for Everdrives and whatever else, but I think we've all asked ourselves whether any harm is being done by that and concluded that ultimately, the answer is no.
Tobias, on the other hand, is a person who has looked causing harm in the face and said to himself "Eh, fuck those guys." He has no sense of honor, and I want nothing to do with him. I will never buy from him regardless of how he prices his goods, and I will never give him approval to make repros of the Xanadu translations once they are done.
If you're wondering what kind of harm he does by ripping off things from the community, by the way, there are two factors. The first is that it's demoralizing to see your work used in that way, and in the absence of money, morale is the only thing that fuels these projects. The second is that it potentially moves us all under the eye of relevant copyright holders who can then start throwing around cease-and-desist orders. I have a feeling that Konami doesn't give a damn, but as the keepers of the entire Hudson estate, they could give us all a good scare if they decided they wanted to start barking loudly.
Quote from: CGQuarterly on 12/19/2016, 07:16 AMThe vast majority of the people who comment on my videos are awesome, but there are also a few people who need to pull a plastic bag over their head and go to sleep.
Welcome to the internet. Anything you do will attract stupid comments. People like to moan about how awful Youtube comments are. Or how awful Facebook is. Neither of those things are at fault. What's awful are just people in general, especially when they can comment from the comfort of their keyboards. Forums are just as dumb as Youtube comments, and those are just as dumb as Facebook, Tumbler, etc etc etc. The internet in general is just dumb because anyone can comment. Only smart people should be allowed to comment. Like me. But of course everyone thinks they're smart. Anyway at least try to have fun with the shitty comments instead of getting angry at them. I had a dude who was saying how the PS2 trounced the OG Xbox in every conceivable way. That was fun for me.
Quote from: SamIAm on 12/19/2016, 07:19 PMIf you're wondering what kind of harm he does by ripping off things from the community, by the way, there are two factors. The first is that it's demoralizing to see your work used in that way, and in the absence of money, morale is the only thing that fuels these projects. The second is that it potentially moves us all under the eye of relevant copyright holders who can then start throwing around cease-and-desist orders. I have a feeling that Konami doesn't give a damn, but as the keepers of the entire Hudson estate, they could give us all a good scare if they decided they wanted to start barking loudly.
Indeed.
Quote from: Joe Redifer on 12/19/2016, 10:32 PMI had a dude who was saying how the PS2 trounced the OG Xbox in every conceivable way. That was fun for me.
This had to be incredible. I'm trying to wrap my mind around how someone could even come to that conclusion. The Xbox is technically superior (as it should be since it came out later). Microsoft really did a good job making it HD friendly.
Both are good systems honestly. Have both, play both, enjoy both.
Quote from: esteban on 12/19/2016, 11:01 PMQuote from: SamIAm on 12/19/2016, 07:19 PMIf you're wondering what kind of harm he does by ripping off things from the community, by the way, there are two factors. The first is that it's demoralizing to see your work used in that way, and in the absence of money, morale is the only thing that fuels these projects. The second is that it potentially moves us all under the eye of relevant copyright holders who can then start throwing around cease-and-desist orders. I have a feeling that Konami doesn't give a damn, but as the keepers of the entire Hudson estate, they could give us all a good scare if they decided they wanted to start barking loudly.
Indeed.
Yep ... the idea of putting in hundreds/thousands of hours of unpaid work on a translation just "For the love of it" (sic), and then to have someone take it and try to make money off of all your hard work (and be praised by collectors-of-plastic) ... is very demoralizing.
IMHO, it's the kind of selfish act that will kill people's willingness to work on translations far more surely than any Konami C&D.
In the case of the Legend of Xanadu games, they've both been completely re-compressed in order to get the translations to fit into memory on an SCD.
That compression code and method is my copyrighted property, the translation won't work without it, and it will not be licensed to Tobias.
That should be enough to give us legal-standing to get a C&D against PCEWorks, even if Falcom don't care (which I think that they would, since they actually still sell both of the Legend of Xanadu games on the Wii Virtual Console).
Quote from: guest on 12/19/2016, 01:31 PMQuote from: TheClash603 on 12/19/2016, 08:32 AMI had a friend that was selling bootleg football jerseys for $40 a pop and he got a cease and desist letter from the NFL.
A "friend"... Riiiight!
I will introduce you to him, DaCa$h6O3.
I don't really have a problem with piracy and bootlegs in general. If somebody wants to sell Magical Chase repros then I couldn't care less. If the guy making the bootlegs charges to make a profit then that's fine. In this particular case Tobias lied, cheated, swindled people with fakes and then stole projects from persons currently active in the community for a quick buck. These two things lead me personally to want to not have any dealings with the man's business.
My limited knowledge of economics tells me that there is clearly a market for these types of things and the high profitability of bootlegs will (eventually) lead to others making copies of PC Engine games. Even if some guy charged exactly as much as Tobias, I would be happy to fill in the expensive gaps in my collection of games I want to play. Optimally, multiple people would have a pricing war and in the end a CD with a manual and a nice case would become pretty cheap regardless of what game it was ripping off.
So long story short? My fingers are crossed that other bootleggers take notice on Tobias' profiteering and on the current stupid high ebay prices on some PC Engine/Turbografx games and see that a market with demand is there thus there is money up for grabs.
IMO you can't say one type of bootlegging is ok and then for whatever reason another is not ok, at the end of the day it's all using someone else's IP to sell something you don't own the rights to.
So taking into account what I just said at the end of the day there's no difference between the repro hucards sold on this site and Tobias's bootleg stuff.
I'm not a fan of Tobias myslef mostly because I love fan translated games, and what he is doing is putting in jepardy translations in the future. He should of contacted the translators first and asked permission and offered a cut of profits. That is my ONLY issue with him, I couldn't give a fuck about anything else TBH. If dipshit idiots want to spend dollars on his energy drinks, collectors coins or panties that's up to them, I don't care.
More my point though is I find it jarring when people are pissed at Tobias mainly just about him bootlegging yet are fine with the bootleg hucards on this forum, they're both bootlegs! just the difference is one person is friends with people on the forum so gets a pass.
the tobias crap is worse than the hu cards partly because of the motive. the pce works stuff is aimed at the collectard mentality who want pretty packaging to fap to on the shelf. most of the people that buy it are peobably never going to fire them up because they dont want to take thier duo out of the box.
as for the hu's, to me, it seems like they were being created for the sole purpose of people playing them, sans emulator, who might not otherwise have a chance. the cases are totally different with no flashy coins or stupid crap like that. most of the work went into simulating the huc itself accurately. for that i applaud.
Quote from: gynt on 12/20/2016, 10:24 AMas for the hu's, to me, it seems like they were being created for the sole purpose of people playing them, sans emulator, who might not otherwise have a chance.
Just get an everdrive if you want to play the games. Both PCE Works and the HuCard bootlegs pander to collectors
Unique looking bootleg HuCards with commercial game roms on them is strictly a collectarded thing, just several tiers below Tobias' products.
I love the novelty of being able to have authorized homebrew projects on dedicated HuCards and having them in a homemade case. It's cool that at a game show people might come across a PCE setup playing HuZero on a HuCard and ask what the hell is going on.
Anyone who just wants to play commercial game roms can buy a TED for the price of a couple bootleg HuCards.
I understand how someone might feel if they end up with all but a few TurboChips and would like the novelty of putting something inside of their Sparky labeled novelty cases. But I'd rather put a homemade stickers on a few copies of Gunboat or Falcon and have them in those cases, as they'd actually look and feel like the real deal.
It's amazing how many people still say there's zero difference between the repro hueys and the stuff Tobias has done. This bullshit has been discussed how many times now, with the same issues being brought up each and every fucking time, yet some chucklefucks continue on with the simplified (and naive) drum beat of "It's all bootlegging! It's identical!!!"
Seriously, it's not hard to see the difference between a profit margin of 10-20% and one of 1000%, in selling translation hacks and homebrews only with permission and selling anything you can get your hands on, or in selling things that're obviously unoriginal and selling things that are only distinguishable if you know what to look for and are advertised as legitimate.
As for this latest round of booties, I don't mind 'em too much. Assuming they all have the logo on the disc and manual back cover (not all of 'em are shown), they're easy enough to distinguish as repros; even the sealed ones, seeing as the shrink wrap isn't even close. Still, that only applies to the disc and manual, as someone could easily pass off the back insert and spine as originals.
I wrote a post, but then deleted it. Pretty much what NecroPhile said. Also, there is difference in people who do bootleg for the community, usually respect the community (don't take stuff from the community without permission), and those who claim respect or for the community - but are solely in the profit for it. I'm not saying one is illegal and the other is not, disregarding the legality of even having roms/rips of games you don't own - on your PC or emulation device, but there is a difference in motive here. And I don't think this whole black and white perspective of it's "all bootleg", is representative at all of the issue. Maybe that difference doesn't mean anything to you personally, but it's something that should be acknowledged. I mean, it gets to the core of all this - motives, and the effect and implications of those motives.
I'm glad these were offered to the community at an affordable rate https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=20020.0
The whole point of this thread is the fact that "new bootlegs" are being sold with no indication as being a bootleg. So, anyone either new to pce or a veteran could have no idea that they are buying a boot if it's new. This should be known to anyone regardless of how they feel about buying bootlegs or not. It is not fair if someone comes along and has no idea they're buying a pceworks boot and want a legit copy. If I can stray at least one person away from buying a boot (especially from Tobias) that wants a legit copy, but give 10 others that don't care and just want to collect it is a win in my book.
Quote from: guest on 12/20/2016, 01:03 PMI'm glad these were offered to the community at an affordable rate https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=20020.0
This link was blocked by my work's spam filter, wat?
Quote from: geise on 12/20/2016, 02:36 PMThe whole point of this thread is the fact that "new bootlegs" are being sold with no indication as being a bootleg. So, anyone either new to pce or a veteran could have no idea that they are buying a boot if it's new. This should be known to anyone regardless of how they feel about buying bootlegs or not. It is not fair if someone comes along and has no idea they're buying a pceworks boot and want a legit copy. If I can stray at least one person away from buying a boot (especially from Tobias) that wants a legit copy, but give 10 others that don't care and just want to collect it is a win in my book.
Yes. That's correct: helping just one person makes it worthwhile. We can't save a fucktard from being a fucktard, necessarily, but someone who is simply ignorant can (potentially) be helped.
:)
Quote from: guest on 12/19/2016, 03:23 PMQuote from: CGQuarterly on 12/19/2016, 03:08 PMI'm actually more pissed that some fag was selling bootleg Everdrives at PRGE than I am about Tobias. Anyone who buys his shit knows they're buying bootlegs (unless they're retarded).
Bootleg everdrives? Ive never heard of this...
You can buy them on places like AliExpress. The board design is the exact same as Krikzz', but supposedly the build quality isn't as good from what I've been told, and the software is different (and supposedly inferior).
Quote from: Joe Redifer on 12/19/2016, 10:32 PMQuote from: CGQuarterly on 12/19/2016, 07:16 AMThe vast majority of the people who comment on my videos are awesome, but there are also a few people who need to pull a plastic bag over their head and go to sleep.
Anyway at least try to have fun with the shitty comments instead of getting angry at them. I had a dude who was saying how the PS2 trounced the OG Xbox in every conceivable way. That was fun for me.
Honestly, I don't even give a shit about people's (in my opinion) wrong opinions. I get plenty of that, but if someone wants to talk about how bad the Genesis sucks, then that's their thing. What I can't stand are people who want to correct the facts stated in my videos with alternate ones pulled out of their asses.
Not long ago someone left a comment on my PSX launch video saying simply "The Playstation launched in 94, bro." Now it's true that it launched in Japan in 94, so maybe he was talking about that, so I just responded with "Did you watch the video?" Because of course I said that it came out in 94 in Japan, and then in 95 here. HOLY SHIT he responds with a fucking TIRADE. Something to the effect of "OF COURSE I WATCHED IT YOU FUCKING IDIOT BUT I REMEMBER BEING AT THE MALL IN 94 AND SAW IT FOR SALE BECAUSE THEY WERE PUTTING IT UP AGAINST THE SATURN. FUCK YOU, YOUR STUPID AND SHOULD STOP MAKING VIDEOS." I mean, honestly. The Playstation launch is very well-documented. There's nothing to even argue about. But this guy went on and on with not just me, but other posters. Like he just refuses to believe that it game out when it did because he has this memory of being like 10 years old or whatever and seeing something in a mall somewhere.
Just a couple of days ago, I got called a "cocksucking fag" because at one point in the same Playstation launch vid, I referred to the system as the "PSX". This kid says something like "The PSX is a product that Sony released in the early 2000's. God I hate it when people mix that up." So I just informed him that we did indeed call the Playstation the "PSX" back in the day (I think after the PS2 had been announced), and he goes on to inform me that "he's 24 (lol) and had owned a Playstation his whole life, I'm a fag, etc." I tell him to explain why in the late 90's IGN's Playstation website was "psx.ign.com", then. That shut him the fuck up.
I think it would be awesome if a bunch of YouTube content creators got together and wrote a book on what it's like dealing with commenters. I think it would be a fun read.
People mistake their memories as facts. I have a friend who writes articles on movie releases and he's very into heavy research. He often gets feedback about how someone remembered watching a 70mm print at a drive in the year before said movie came out when in fact the movie didn't even have 70mm prints. Memories change. NOBODY has perfect memory. It's all faulty. That's why we document things. Memory is not evidence. Of course there's no convincing people of this. "No but I CLEARLY remember it". No, you clearly misremember it.
Quote from: Joe Redifer on 12/20/2016, 09:12 PMPeople mistake their memories as facts. I have a friend who writes articles on movie releases and he's very into heavy research. He often gets feedback about how someone remembered watching a 70mm print at a drive in the year before said movie came out when in fact the movie didn't even have 70mm prints. Memories change. NOBODY has perfect memory. It's all faulty. That's why we document things. Memory is not evidence. Of course there's no convincing people of this. "No but I CLEARLY remember it". No, you clearly misremember it.
Sure... It's called Mandela Effect lol
Quote from: CGQuarterly on 12/20/2016, 04:54 PMQuote from: guest on 12/19/2016, 03:23 PMQuote from: CGQuarterly on 12/19/2016, 03:08 PMI'm actually more pissed that some fag was selling bootleg Everdrives at PRGE than I am about Tobias. Anyone who buys his shit knows they're buying bootlegs (unless they're retarded).
Bootleg everdrives? Ive never heard of this...
You can buy them on places like AliExpress. The board design is the exact same as Krikzz', but supposedly the build quality isn't as good from what I've been told, and the software is different (and supposedly inferior).
Most of the ones on eBay are fakes too.
Quote from: guest on 12/20/2016, 09:17 PMQuote from: Joe Redifer on 12/20/2016, 09:12 PMPeople mistake their memories as facts. I have a friend who writes articles on movie releases and he's very into heavy research. He often gets feedback about how someone remembered watching a 70mm print at a drive in the year before said movie came out when in fact the movie didn't even have 70mm prints. Memories change. NOBODY has perfect memory. It's all faulty. That's why we document things. Memory is not evidence. Of course there's no convincing people of this. "No but I CLEARLY remember it". No, you clearly misremember it.
Sure... It's called Mandela Effect lol
This timeline has many differences, I just want back in the Berenstein bears timeline.
*Berenstain*
Sorry.
Quote from: ccovell on 12/22/2016, 10:40 PM*Berenstain*
Sorry.
He's referring to the AVGN alternate reality video, I think. lol.
on the topic of repros and crap, here's a Venn Diagram of the differences
/33kde6x.png
I don't see the point in either type of repro.
Tobias' repros can be made by oneself with a printer and a CD basically. You lose the "pressed CD" thing, but we've discovered how/what to use so that CD-Rs aren't shit-tier. So, the only thing he has a knack for is making really cool boxes/stupid shit to go with the games and entice jackoffs to buy them up so he can buy more upscalers.
The HuCards started as a "ohman we can get Magical Chase" sort of thing. But now, we are unfortunately wasting the materials on stupid shit like black Keith Courage cards and combo-cards for people to post pictures of on Facebook and go "OMFG GOT ME A REPROS, lol #GAMING".
To be 100% honest, the Hueys are a tad overpriced, and people buying those things for 50$+ or whatever are dumbshits. You can spend 20$ more and buy an Everdrive, and play all the same crap. How bad do people really need things on a shelf?
If you really need shelves of game cases, just get a bunch of empty CD cases and put sparky's stickers on the spines. I assure you, the placebo effect will kick in and you will enjoy just playing everything on your Everdrive.
The HuCard repros aren't legit. They're fake. neat, but fake. People saying "finally finished my collection" as the result of buying a bunch of fake HuCards are dinguses. You didn't complete anything.
The upside to the HuCards is that they're "made by us".
Tobias is an outsider, and he's a dick. Had he not been a giant dick, people would not be up in arms about the guy.
I also personally feel pretty "wtf?" when I see people jacking off over repro hucards and shelling out $$$$$$$$$ for them, while passing up on Atlantean.
... and then those same people message me asking for Atlantean when I am sold out. The fake HuCards have become a bit of a distraction.
People really have mostly resorted to just posting pictures of all the stupid shit they buy, followed by maybe a title screen of the game. I don't think half these people play a goddamn thing.
I don't need to see 40 different people posting the same picture of a HuCard repro they bought.
I don't even need to see people posting REAL ones they bought.
We all know what a fuckin copy of Bonk looks like. We're not that retarded.
Also, before someone says "oh but you charge $$$$ for Atlantean. you can't talk."
1) We're charging you for parts, labor, time-spent-3Dprinting-because-jesus-christ-the-things-print-slow.
2) We're also charging you for BRAND NEW GAME THAT WE SPENT ALOT OF FREE TIME ON, to encourage us to bother continuing to do that.
2 is the important part. That's the justification. You're basically paying us for the fact that we (as a team) spent tons of our free time to give you a new thing to play with. If people weren't willing to pay for these once finished, I can assure you, I would not focus on them as much as I do. Part of the fun of this is making the physical things, and going to conventions to setup and show them off, talk to people, and sell them. It's a nice feeling to be rewarded for a fuckton of effort.
If all of that wasn't a thing, I would still make the games, it's just, I've got a cabinet of games that basically fall out on me everytime I open the doors as a result of focusing on making games and dicking around with this stuff. Getting to those games for my enjoyment would be cool. So, I would spend *less* of my free time making games. Everyone being willing to participate encourages me to try and finish stuff sometime this century. This sometimes means I don't get to play games as much.
I can't say I really agree with seeing HuCards of like, Hana Taka Daka going for 45$, or a 2fer card with Neutopia 1 and 2 going for like 50+$ when it takes hardly any time to assemble one of those, and nobody reproing it had any hand in the programming part. They should cost less.
LOL! I got kicked out of "Turbob Xpress" facebook group today because some guy couldn't understand why I don't have praise for Tobias. The ignorant dick didn't even know PCE works was selling MM1 updated CD; he only thought they gave away free discs. The ignorance of some people. Confronted with it, he doesn't care because he got a copy - that's all the matters. That if I cared, I should have pressed them myself! I know Tobias is doing more shit than taking community stuff, but I doubt people will care either way. A PSA will probably fall on deaf ears.
Quote from: TurboXray on 12/24/2016, 03:07 PMLOL! I got kicked out of "Turbob Xpress" facebook group today because some guy couldn't understand why I don't have praise for Tobias. The ignorant dick didn't even know PCE works was selling MM1 updated CD; he only thought they gave away free discs. The ignorance of some people. Confronted with it, he doesn't care because he got a copy - that's all the matters. That if I cared, I should have pressed them myself! I know Tobias is doing more shit than taking community stuff, but I doubt people will care either way. A PSA will probably fall on deaf ears.
I know. I just want to believe that some folks will transcend their ignorance.
At this point, it seems that even hoping for 5% of the ignorant to become "enlightened" is too generous...
Still, I can't give up on those 5% :)
Who kicked you out of Turbob Xpress?
Quote from: guest on 12/24/2016, 06:16 AM1) We're charging you for parts, labor, time-spent-3Dprinting-because-jesus-christ-the-things-print-slow.
2) We're also charging you for BRAND NEW GAME THAT WE SPENT ALOT OF FREE TIME ON, to encourage us to bother continuing to do that.
I seriously hope nobody gives you shit for charging or (gasp) making a profit for your goods and not offering a downloadable ROM for free (which you offer a demo with Santatlantean anyway). You are producing a marketable good that not only has costs, but the time investment is nothing without reward so your profit is perfectly acceptable. You're not passing off repros as originals and selling them for an inflated value so I can't imagine anyone would give you shit, but this is the internet... I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but if there are readers of this forum who would criticize Atlantean costing money, well... let's fight!
Mostly idiots on fb. Ive also had people bitch about no free shipping, or expensive shipping.
.... to international locales.
Lol
Also, I saw where two dipshits basically made fun of Bonknuts for being miffed about Tobias lifting his Megaman stuff.
It's a shitshow.
The PCE scene has turned into a trainwreck, thanks to Facebook, and selfish gamers
EDIT: The post was deleted,or they hid it from me. Either way, bunch of fuckups.
I wonder if they post here. Does Jordan Bayless post here?
If so, he's a dick.
Quote from: guest on 12/25/2016, 11:14 PMAlso, I saw where two dipshits basically made fun of Bonknuts for being miffed about Tobias lifting his Megaman stuff.
It's a shitshow.
The PCE scene has turned into a trainwreck, thanks to Facebook, and selfish gamers
EDIT: The post was deleted,or they hid it from me. Either way, bunch of fuckups.
I wonder if they post here. Does Jordan Bayless post here?
If so, he's a dick.
Why are people this fucking stupid?
I can punch Jordan in the face for you irl if you need. I'm 90% sure he does not post here fwiw.
He could use a good punch in the mouth to be honest.
It takes a special kind of stupid to do the shit he and another dude were doing.
Basically it went like
"anyone who talks shit about PCEWorks is getting punched in the face"
Bonknuts chimes in about how shitty that is because stolen work, duping, lying, profiteering, etc.
Jordan basically says whatever, fuck you, I got this disc for free, you stole Megaman anyways so it's OK
It's like "what"
and then Jordan and the other dude basically jerked each other off and high fived each other while making fun of the entire thing.
This shit is pretty much what will ruin the PCE scene
I believe we talked about it before and I tried to explain why PCE works is evil and he should just burn cdrs. He doesn't even really like PCE though tbh.
Quote from: Gypsy on 12/26/2016, 12:13 AMI believe we talked about it before and I tried to explain why PCE works is evil and he should just burn cdrs. He doesn't even really like PCE though tbh.
so what you're saying is, he's a douchebag poseur , leeching free shit and being a tool to people who give a shit about the scene.
Oh ok.
Yeah, punch him.
That Jordan guy sounds like a grade A twat.
PS - I love the venn diagram.
Quote from: guest on 12/25/2016, 11:14 PMIt's a shitshow.
The PCE scene has turned into a trainwreck, thanks to Quote from: guest on 12/25/2016, 11:49 PMHe could use a good punch in the dick to be honest.
It takes a special kind of stupid to do the shit he and another dude were doing.
Basically it went like
"anyone who talks shit about PCEWorks is getting punched in the face"
Bonknuts chimes in about how shitty that is because stolen work, duping, lying, profiteering, etc.
Jordan basically says whatever, fuck you, I got this disc for free, you stole Megaman anyways so it's OK
It's like "what"
and then Jordan and the other dude basically jerked each other off and high fived each other while making fun of the entire thing.
This shit is pretty much what ruined the PCE scene
I had hoped that this thread would have some uplifting stories about ignorant folks finding The Truth.
...about a wise prophet harnessing the PCE bible as a beacon of peace, love, and enlightenment....
...maybe next year Esteban.
Quote from: SamIAm on 12/19/2016, 07:19 PMTobias, on the other hand, is a person who has looked causing harm in the face and said to himself "Eh, fuck those guys."
That had me LMAO, well played! :lol:
I'm all for the *quality* of PCEWorks stuff.
But, people really need to stop running around the internet with their dicks out going OMFG PCEWORKS IS AWESOME LOOK AT THIS STUFF.
while leaving out that they got the shit *for free*.
It just makes more shelf candy whores go
O
M
F
G
and run to buy shit.
If he wasn't such a dickbutt, none of this would be that bad. As it stands now, he's a disingenuous fuckpump.
Quote from: guest on 01/03/2017, 03:05 AMI'm all for the *quality* of PCEWorks stuff.
But, people really need to stop running around the internet with their dicks out going OMFG PCEWORKS IS AWESOME LOOK AT THIS STUFF.
while leaving out that they got the shit *for free*.
It just makes more shelf candy whores go
O
M
F
G
and run to buy shit.
If he wasn't such a dickbutt, none of this would be that bad. As it stands now, he's a disingenuous fuckpump.
Next up, Atlantean SCD release by PCEworks.
Quote from: TheClash603 on 01/03/2017, 08:04 AMNext up, Atlantean SCD release by PCEworks.
Limited edition bonus content?
Quote from: guest on 01/03/2017, 01:33 AMQuote from: Gypsy on 12/25/2016, 11:27 PMQuote from: guest on 12/25/2016, 11:14 PMAlso, I saw where two dipshits basically made fun of Bonknuts for being miffed about Tobias lifting his Megaman stuff.
It's a shitshow.
The PCE scene has turned into a trainwreck, thanks to Facebook, and selfish gamers
EDIT: The post was deleted,or they hid it from me. Either way, bunch of fuckups.
I wonder if they post here. Does Jordan Bayless post here?
If so, he's a dick.
Why are people this fucking stupid?
I can punch Jordan in the face for you irl if you need. I'm 90% sure he does not post here fwiw.
Irl? So you are in or near KS?
Yeah, are you as well?
Quote from: TheClash603 on 01/03/2017, 08:04 AMQuote from: Psycho Arkhan on 01/03/2017, 03:05 AMI'm all for the *quality* of PCEWorks stuff.
But, people really need to stop running around the internet with their dicks out going OMFG PCEWORKS IS AWESOME LOOK AT THIS STUFF.
while leaving out that they got the shit *for free*.
It just makes more shelf candy whores go
O
M
F
G
and run to buy shit.
If he wasn't such a dickbutt, none of this would be that bad. As it stands now, he's a disingenuous fuckpump.
Next up, Atlantean SCD release by PCEworks.
Speaking of which, how many KBs does atlantean use? Any special mapping? I have the damn game but it never occurred to me to ask arkhan directly
Quote from: guest on 01/03/2017, 02:18 PMSpeaking of which, how many KBs does atlantean use? Any special mapping? I have the damn game but it never occurred to me to ask arkhan directly
I bought the download ... and it runs fine in Mednafen, so there's no weird mapping going on.
It's a 512KB HuCard.
And it was built with HuC ... it's easy to tell that from the bank mappings.
IIRC Arkhan has previously said that he converted a lot/most/all of the code from C to assembly, but the overall structure is still very "HuC".
Wow. Pantsu edition? That's a real thing and not a joke?
Quote from: TurboXray on 12/18/2016, 06:52 PM(Also, please read the following in Laurence Fishburne's voice. Thanks).
What right do you have to anything?... and not justify it with bullshit, to make your conscience feel better.
This post was epic, thanks Lawrence, I mean Bonknuts.
Also I feel your pain in having been ripped off. I really enjoy your version of Megaman if it's any consolation prize. :)
Atlanteans a 512kb rom. Its still structured like it was built with huc because it was.
The layout never changed. Just the code contents where needed.
PCE/TG-16|CD/SGX Discussion => Topic started by: CrackTiger on 12/18/2016, 09:27 AM