PCE, SNES and Genesis Screen Comparison.

nectarsis · 09/30/2009, 11:05 PM

Ahhhhhhhh must have missed that, thanks CrackTiger

Tatsujin · 09/30/2009, 11:12 PM

Quoteguyomes comparison shots

lol. those french nonobeyers.

TR0N · 10/01/2009, 12:14 AM

Quote from: guest on 09/30/2009, 11:03 PM
Quote from: nectarsis on 09/30/2009, 10:28 PMWhat game is the 2nd set of pics, left column. 3rd down?
Seiken Denstetsu 3/"Secret of Mana 2". awack posted a bunch of pics (including that one) from it in this thread 10(?) pages back.

Quote from: TR0N on 09/30/2009, 10:39 PMAhh if only the pce verison of popful mail could have been like the sega-cd version....
I prefer the PCE version the way it is. But if it a PCE version was made more hack 'n slashy like the Sega and SFC versions, I'd prefer it to be done like Xanadu 1's action scenes. The Sega-CD version is kinda bland in comparison.

Well when i had a sega-cd that was my frist version to play of popful mail.Then i get a pce again years later and i find it to be a throw back.While it's gameplay is like Ys i don't know i just prefer the sega-cd version more.Btw i know now that pce version of popful mail is a port of the PC88 version,but i guess i wanted that hack'n'slash gameplay.

awack · 10/01/2009, 08:36 AM

Took some shots of popful mail for the super nintendo, kinda looks like a better looking version of Ys III.

I got to the 3rd or 4th level, and from what i have seen, its a bit graphically mundane in comparison, in my opinion.

popful mail snes

legend of xanadu pce

awack · 10/01/2009, 10:39 AM

This was a request to show the difference in colors, tiles and such.

pce bonks revenge

snes super bonk

pce, 8megs snes, 12megs

guyjin · 10/01/2009, 12:31 PM

offtopic: I like how the SNES version names the levels in the upper right corner.

shubibiman · 10/01/2009, 01:50 PM

Hey, it's seems like the SNES version is a mix of the PCE games.

blueraven · 10/01/2009, 02:19 PM

Quote from: awack on 10/01/2009, 08:36 AMpopful mail snes

Thanks, Awack. I've beaten the Sega CD version of this game, which is wonderful, IMHO.

peonpiate · 10/01/2009, 03:57 PM

I know the PCE is a very capable system and certainly was ahead of its time at its release, but some of the games shown in the recent screenshots really need to be seen in motion to appreciate more.

The one that caught my eye in particular is Secret of Mana 2, yes it looks great in these pics...But it looks far better in motion. the game is just a masterpiece for what the Snes could do at the end of its timespan and in competant hands [squaresoft]. Id wager that against any of the PCE or Genesis games it is being compared to in terms of animation, graghics and color.

Besides that I am admittedly a Squaresoft fanboy [of the snes games atleast...I didnt like anything beyond FF7 from them] so dont take my post as a knock against the PCE. I just find that Squaresoft's quality during the SNES's heyday was outstanding so its hard to compete with that. It would have been nice to see Square give it a shot like Konami did with Drac-X [great game and looked good to] that way a comparison would be more fair.

In order of Quality I would rate it like this for the last set of pics [page 50+]..
Snes-Secret of mana2>PCE LoX2> SegaCD pics [dont know the name of that game, popful mail?].

nectarsis · 10/01/2009, 05:04 PM

As an ex-Square fanboy (till I saw teh light)..I still like a few of their games. You say the game needs to be seen in motion..same could be said of LOX I or II. The point of the comparison is to show that the "8bit" PCE can hang..and by MANY accounts trounce the "16-bit" heavy hitters. Considering the SNES was the "superior" console, it should EASILY wipe the floor with the PCE games. While Seiken Densetsu 3 looks decent LOX II KILLS it easily...the comparison is more than fair.

peonpiate · 10/01/2009, 05:16 PM

Ive seen Lox 1 and 2 in motion, it looks good but not as good as SoM2 imo. Its all subjective though.

I think the PCE properly programmed can equal the SNES in alot of areas but not trounce it, unless you count the Arcade card which I dont [world heroes 2 screenshots come to mind]...if you do, you might aswell bring in the 32x for comparison and say its a Genesis.

PCE definately has the speed advantage over the SNES though. The snes cpu has always been a bad move on Nintendo's part, its to slow. Graghics, not counting mode 7 id say is almost even to the SNES. Almost since theres no built in parallax.

Sound ? CD addon yes, Hucard? not horrible but no contest here, Snes has it beat.

Genesis is the weakestdog here, sound sucks for the most part. Colors are handicapped to 64, it had speed and good developers though.

It would have been nice to have Mortal kombat 1 or 2 out on the PCE, id like to have seen it for comparison's sake.

peonpiate · 10/01/2009, 05:19 PM

Actually I guess im a ex-square fanboy aswell. I havnt touched thier shovelware since FF10 and the last time I bought a system solely for thier games was the Ps2 [for 10]. Since 7 thier quality is pretty shit and I dont keep track of it anymore. Thier snes games and FF7 [for the most part] were stellar though.

nectarsis · 10/01/2009, 05:35 PM

Quote from: peonpiate on 10/01/2009, 05:16 PMIve seen Lox 1 and 2 in motion, it looks good but not as good as SoM2 imo. Its all subjective though.

I think the PCE properly programmed can equal the SNES in alot of areas but not trounce it, unless you count the Arcade card which I dont [world heroes 2 screenshots come to mind]...if you do, you might aswell bring in the 32x for comparison and say its a Genesis.

PCE definately has the speed advantage over the SNES though. The snes cpu has always been a bad move on Nintendo's part, its to slow. Graghics, not counting mode 7 id say is almost even to the SNES. Almost since theres no built in parallax.

Sound ? CD addon yes, Hucard? not horrible but no contest here, Snes has it beat.

Genesis is the weakestdog here, sound sucks for the most part. Colors are handicapped to 64, it had speed and good developers though.

It would have been nice to have Mortal kombat 1 or 2 out on the PCE, id like to have seen it for comparison's sake.

Ahhhhhhh but we compare with the Sega CD as well so the Arcade card should be fair game. ;) 32x..I thought you wanted to HELP your case lol.

CrackTiger · 10/01/2009, 05:55 PM

Quote from: peonpiate on 10/01/2009, 05:16 PMI think the PCE properly programmed can equal the SNES in alot of areas but not trounce it, unless you count the Arcade card which I dont [world heroes 2 screenshots come to mind]...if you do, you might aswell bring in the 32x for comparison and say its a Genesis.

The Arcade Card adds no extra hardware whatsoever. Unlike the Sega-CD, the Turbo/PCE CD-ROM also does not add anything extra other than allowing CD music to stream off a disc and adpcm for sfx. So really the adpcm is the only upgrade, but the PCE can already do quality sound samples in real game environments. So like the CD discs, the adpcm is only a delivery method and doesn't provide anything the PCE couldn't already do on it's own that the average person could notice.

Not counting the Arcade Card is like not counting any SNES games that are larger than 8 megs. Many SNES games however use extra hardware that is packed into the carts.

QuotePCE definately has the speed advantage over the SNES though. The snes cpu has always been a bad move on Nintendo's part, its to slow. Graghics, not counting mode 7 id say is almost even to the SNES. Almost since theres no built in parallax.

It doesn't matter how the effect is created, parallax or otherwise it's still the same. The PCE can do all kinds of crazy parallax and other effects that aren't built-in.

QuoteGenesis is the weakestdog here, sound sucks for the most part. Colors are handicapped to 64, it had speed and good developers though.

I guess you haven't played enough Genesis games, because the system can do amazing system generated sound/music as well as great single samples, even if the other consoles are better at multiple samples. The Genesis has enough colors to produce amazing graphics for the time, but like parallax effects on the PCE it just has to be designed around the hardware instead of the other way around.

nectarsis · 10/01/2009, 05:59 PM

Quote from: guest on 10/01/2009, 05:55 PMNot counting the Arcade Card is like not counting any SNES games that are larger than 8 megs. Many SNES games however use extra hardware that is packed into the carts.

HERE HERE!!

CrackTiger · 10/01/2009, 06:08 PM

Quote from: awack on 10/01/2009, 10:39 AMThis was a request to show the difference in colors, tiles and such.

The PCE Bonk games didn't even attempt to use much shading and are in a different style than Super Bonk. Super Air Zonk would be the closest thing that was released commercially to compare. I just happened to put together a PCE-spec mockup of Bonk's Adventure recently that shows how the game could look using PCE graphics, but I'm away from home and don't have the url right now.

peonpiate · 10/01/2009, 06:37 PM

Im all for comparing games aslong as its valid, I have no problem not counting chip enhanced snes games either...But the PCE couldnt do WH2 of that quality without the ACD. It would look like like the SNES version without that extra Ram. So thats not a fair comparison.

And also the meg counts is a apples to oranges comparion to needing to buy a Addon for your system [ACD].

nectarsis · 10/01/2009, 06:46 PM

Quote from: peonpiate on 10/01/2009, 06:37 PMIm all for comparing games aslong as its valid, I have no problem not counting chip enhanced snes games either...But the PCE couldnt do WH2 of that quality without the ACD. It would look like like the SNES version without that extra Ram. So thats not a fair comparison.

And also the meg counts is a apples to oranges comparion to needing to buy a Addon for your system [ACD].

Not if the game in question has (sometimes) a LOT more megs for the same game (or similar) and STILL looks inferior on the SNES.

TurboXray · 10/01/2009, 06:47 PM

Quote from: peonpiate on 10/01/2009, 05:16 PMI think the PCE properly programmed can equal the SNES in alot of areas but not trounce it, unless you count the Arcade card which I dont [world heroes 2 screenshots come to mind]...if you do, you might aswell bring in the 32x for comparison and say its a Genesis.

I've seen this mentioned before on some other forums. This perplexes me. The Arcade Card isn't adding anything new to the PCE except memory. It's equivalent to more/larger cart space. That's what purpose it serves. The SuperGrafx, now that's a hardware upgrade. The 32x, that's a fairly big upgrade (I mean, you get more colors - 32k, two 32bit processors, two new stereo DAC channels, etc). The Arcade Card isn't even equivalent to the SNES addon chips. It's nothing more than larger cart space for CD projects. I think it's perfectly fair game.

QuoteBut the PCE couldnt do WH2 of that quality without the ACD. It would look like like the SNES version without that extra Ram.

It could easily do WH2 without the ACD, in a hucard project. The ACD ram is used *as* rom/cart space. It's not attached to vram or anything.

awack · 10/01/2009, 08:21 PM

blueraven

QuoteThanks, Awack. I've beaten the Sega CD version of this game, which is wonderful, IMHO.

The sega cd version of Popful Mail is at the top of my want list.

Black Tiger

QuoteThe PCE Bonk games didn't even attempt to use much shading and are in a different style than Super Bonk. Super Air Zonk would be the closest thing that was released commercially to compare. I just happened to put together a PCE-spec mockup of Bonk's Adventure recently that shows how the game could look using PCE graphics, but I'm away from home and don't have the url right now.

No doubt, the pce bonks use more basic/bold colors where is super bonk uses more subtle colors plus more shading, but too much gradiation or the use of subtle colors for shading can make objects look flat, this isn't the case for super bonk though and yes, Super Air Zonk is definitely the closest, with lots of shading but with more vibrant colors.

QuoteI just happened to put together a PCE-spec mockup of Bonk's Adventure recently that shows how the game could look using PCE graphics, but I'm away from home and don't have the url right now.[/

That would be neat to see, i bet the person who made the request to me would really like to see it as well.

Tatsujin · 10/01/2009, 08:41 PM

Quote from: Tom on 10/01/2009, 06:47 PM
Quote from: peonpiate on 10/01/2009, 05:16 PMI think the PCE properly programmed can equal the SNES in alot of areas but not trounce it, unless you count the Arcade card which I dont [world heroes 2 screenshots come to mind]...if you do, you might aswell bring in the 32x for comparison and say its a Genesis.
I've seen this mentioned before on some other forums. This perplexes me. The Arcade Card isn't adding anything new to the PCE except memory. It's equivalent to more/larger cart space. That's what purpose it serves. The SuperGrafx, now that's a hardware upgrade. The 32x, that's a fairly big upgrade (I mean, you get more colors - 32k, two 32bit processors, two new stereo DAC channels, etc). The Arcade Card isn't even equivalent to the SNES addon chips. It's nothing more than larger cart space for CD projects. I think it's perfectly fair game.

QFT

i had this discussion over and over again in other forums, but peeps just seem not to understand it. so i explanied it like this way. if you would cut out each level of Sapphire and put them each separated on one 20Mbit HuCard, graphically wise it would run on a basic 1987 PC Engine.

SignOfZeta · 10/01/2009, 09:26 PM

Quote from: peonpiateIve seen Lox 1 and 2 in motion, it looks good but not as good as SoM2 imo.

Yeah, no shit. The PCE can crank out one hell of a still shot, but it can't even touch what's going on in a game like Seiken 3. I wish the PCE could do transparencies, or that it had more access at a time to the huge amount of stuff on the CD, but...it doesn't.

QuoteI think the PCE properly programmed can equal the SNES in alot of areas but not trounce it, unless you count the Arcade card which I dont [world heroes 2 screenshots come to mind]...if you do, you might aswell bring in the 32x for comparison and say its a Genesis.

OK, that's just crazy.

Joe Redifer · 10/01/2009, 10:05 PM

Quote from: peonpiateIm all for comparing games aslong as its valid, I have no problem not counting chip enhanced snes games either...But the PCE couldnt do WH2 of that quality without the ACD. It would look like like the SNES version without that extra Ram. So thats not a fair comparison.

And also the meg counts is a apples to oranges comparion to needing to buy a Addon for your system [ACD].

OK I MUST step in here as this is getting a bit too ridiculous for me to let slide. I swear we had this same argument over on Sega-16. I wouldn't be surprised if you were that same member, I will have to check the IPs of your posts. But if you want to compare RAW PCE power to RAW SNES power, then memory is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if it is an 8 Meg game or a 48 meg game or an Arcade CD. You saying that MEG count is apples and oranges in comparison to an add-on like the ACD is absolutely preposterous. IT'S THE SAME THING! MORE MEMORY! What DOES matter is if there is any extra hardware helping with the tasks. Many SNES cartridges have extra chips to help them do certain things. The argument that was presented over at Sega-16 was that the PCE/TurboGrafx-16 could not do something as awesome as Lords of Thunder on its own. Why not? Because the CPU was freed of the task of generating music, so that granted much more power to the graphics and gameplay. That was the biggest facepalm moment I had ever had, and it is starting to look like it will happen again.

CrackTiger · 10/01/2009, 10:23 PM

Quote from: awack on 10/01/2009, 08:21 PM
QuoteThe PCE Bonk games didn't even attempt to use much shading and are in a different style than Super Bonk. Super Air Zonk would be the closest thing that was released commercially to compare. I just happened to put together a PCE-spec mockup of Bonk's Adventure recently that shows how the game could look using PCE graphics, but I'm away from home and don't have the url right now.
No doubt, the pce bonks use more basic/bold colors where is super bonk uses more subtle colors plus more shading, but too much gradiation or the use of subtle colors for shading can make objects look flat, this isn't the case for super bonk though and yes, Super Air Zonk is definitely the closest, with lots of shading but with more vibrant colors.
QuoteI just happened to put together a PCE-spec mockup of Bonk's Adventure recently that shows how the game could look using PCE graphics, but I'm away from home and don't have the url right now.
That would be neat to see, i bet the person who made the request to me would really like to see it as well.

My webspace has been down most of the day so these might not always show up. I just threw this together one night as an example, a lot more detail and shading could be crammed in-

Revenge and Super-

Anyways, that mockup uses real PCE colors and the background is well within the colors per tile limits. The character sprites are fairly maxed out, I know that the Chikkun (or whatever) is 15 colors. The only black that is used is for each sprite's eyes.

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 10/01/2009, 09:26 PM
Quote from: peonpiateIve seen Lox 1 and 2 in motion, it looks good but not as good as SoM2 imo.
Yeah, no shit. The PCE can crank out one hell of a still shot, but it can't even touch what's going on in a game like Seiken 3. I wish the PCE could do transparencies, or that it had more access at a time to the huge amount of stuff on the CD, but...it doesn't.

The PCE can do great looking transparencies with flickering, here's a great example (obviously looks better/perfect in real-time on real hardware). Isn't Seiken Densetsu 3 only 32 megs, why wouldn't 18 megs be enough CD access? What exactly goes on in SD3 that the PCE couldn't even touch?

Tatsujin · 10/01/2009, 10:44 PM

who made that? nooiss!!

peonpiate · 10/01/2009, 11:26 PM

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 10/01/2009, 10:05 PM
Quote from: peonpiateIm all for comparing games aslong as its valid, I have no problem not counting chip enhanced snes games either...But the PCE couldnt do WH2 of that quality without the ACD. It would look like like the SNES version without that extra Ram. So thats not a fair comparison.

And also the meg counts is a apples to oranges comparion to needing to buy a Addon for your system [ACD].
OK I MUST step in here as this is getting a bit too ridiculous for me to let slide. I swear we had this same argument over on Sega-16. I wouldn't be surprised if you were that same member, I will have to check the IPs of your posts. But if you want to compare RAW PCE power to RAW SNES power, then memory is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if it is an 8 Meg game or a 48 meg game or an Arcade CD. You saying that MEG count is apples and oranges in comparison to an add-on like the ACD is absolutely preposterous. IT'S THE SAME THING! MORE MEMORY! What DOES matter is if there is any extra hardware helping with the tasks. Many SNES cartridges have extra chips to help them do certain things. The argument that was presented over at Sega-16 was that the PCE/TurboGrafx-16 could not do something as awesome as Lords of Thunder on its own. Why not? Because the CPU was freed of the task of generating music, so that granted much more power to the graphics and gameplay. That was the biggest facepalm moment I had ever had, and it is starting to look like it will happen again.

My whole point is, with World heroes 2 your comparing not only a CD game to a limited storage SNES game. but your also comparing a game which required the ACD so that it had enough RAM to hold the graghics its displaying since its a CD game.

Thats not a fair comparison at all, regardless if its 'only' more ram...The snes version is running vanilla and unmodified, without the benefit of mass CD storage to store the huge sprites and animations and without the added RAM to quickly access it.

If you want a fair comparison of a fighting game, again its SF2. Its running on a standard Hu-card - just like the SNES version is running on standard SNES hardware. Its also nearly the same meg count as the other versions and is not accessing huge piles of additional sprites from a CD drive [and thats not counting a ACD's extra ram to access it].

And I doubt WH2 could be done to the exact quality as the ACD-CD version was on a standard hu-card..again I think it would resemble the SNES version due to storage space limits. If there was a SNES CD out there with WH2 on it im sure that version would be far more comparable...Thats why the comparison is irrelevant.

As for my comparisons to a 32x...its only for the $$$ difference. Getting a ACD card is a addon, just as a 32x is. Thats not a straight comparison.

And im not the guy on Sega-16, you can check my IP.

Tatsujin · 10/02/2009, 01:17 AM

there we come the truth a little bit more near. but still, what the PCE shows in any games available (except SGFX), is the pure power from 1987 and in no way more than that. unlike the SFC, MDC etc. which got their technical upgrades like Special DSP FX chipsets built-in the cart (SFC) or even a complete revised hardware with lots of extrachipsets (MCD), to accelerate grafx power and such. regarding the fact, that the PCE is anyway by far the oldest hardware, it is even more astonish what that lil' brick can perform.

the big misbelief:

all world thinks, that the PCE is THE system which got the largest upgrades in history of videogames. but the truth is, it got NOTHING. nothing means in terms of graphic acceleration and output power. all the upgrades are just limited to cosmetics and storage add-ons.

so all what you can see going on the screen is still done with the same power it was handed to it back at its birth on 30th October 1987.

Arkhan Asylum · 10/02/2009, 01:23 AM

Tatsujin ftmfw

Tatsujin · 10/02/2009, 01:59 AM

Quote from: guest on 10/02/2009, 01:23 AMftmfw

lulz, internet knows no limit when it comes to urban slangs.

Ceti Alpha · 10/02/2009, 02:56 AM

OTPCE

shubibiman · 10/02/2009, 07:28 AM

I'm sure Pionpiate and Guyome are the same person :p

TurboXray · 10/02/2009, 08:12 AM

Quote from: shubibiman on 10/02/2009, 07:28 AMI'm sure Pionpiate and Guyome are the same person :p

I know you're joking, but I really don't want to alienate peonpiate since he/she just got here.

QuoteThats not a fair comparison at all, regardless if its 'only' more ram...The snes version is running vanilla and unmodified, without the benefit of mass CD storage to store the huge sprites and animations and without the added RAM to quickly access it.

You say, but it's really has nothing to do with RAM. Not in the context you're thinking. It's cart space. The ACD RAM can't be access like normal RAM/ROM. It's basically just used/treated as sequential storage device for reading from memory. It's not more WORK ram or that sort of thing. The way it's designed, you don't read/write to it like normal for a console or a computer. Like I said, it's directly equivalent of a larger cart ROM. And from that perspective, it's totally fair to compare. The PCE has a better hardware arrangement for doing BG's with more non-repeating tiles than the SNES. This shows in the FF:Special comparison screens shots. This in the WH2 comparison screen shots. That Arcade Card doesn't effect the BG's because all the tiles are already loaded in VRAM. And by comparison, those stage BGs take up next to nothing compared to all the sprite frames of animation.

QuoteAnd I doubt WH2 could be done to the exact quality as the ACD-CD version was on a standard hu-card..again I think it would resemble the SNES version due to storage space limits.

Well, you're only limited by the size of the rom. The SNES *technically* can handle up to a 90+meg cart size without a mapper. The PCE can also handle up to that size with just a simple mapper. There's nothing to say neither could have used larger cart sizes than that. The systems themselves aren't *limited* to small carts. But the point is, WH2 would look the same on hucard given a large enough mapper. I.e. the ACD setup gives no speed or special graphical advantage. It doesn't allow you to display larger sprites, or more colors, or give the system a speed increase. What did do though, was allow the PCE CD system to be *competitive* with the growing cart sizes of the SFC/MD systems. Technically speaking, the 256k of RAM of system card 3.0 (which again, is used as ROM space. Or better termed "cart space") - is really limited in a lot of ways, even if the CD itself can hold hundreds time more than carts. SF2, a simpler fighter engine/game IMO, was completely *not* doable on the system card 3.0. It *had* to be on a hucard project. And guess what? That same hucard *only* has 8k of RAM. So if you're saying that comparing ACD games with SNES cart is unfair, then I'd have to say comparing SNES carts to SCD games is even more unfair. Unfair for the SCD 3.0 games.

My point is; that ACD doesn't bring to the table what a lot of gamers think. Gamers always willing to *include* the strengths of the SNES: mode 7, mode 1 (3 BG layers), 32k color palette, transparency effects, the snazy SPC sound unit. Not to mention the very common addon chips of SNES carts. And yet... a lot of gamers are *quick* to dismiss the ACD setup of the PCE. Try to classify it as an addon to the likes of the 32x or whatever. Which is utterly ridiculous. Especially from a programming perspective. I've even seen gamers dismiss the System 3.0 CD addon itself, when it tends to show something superior to the competitor/other system. I just don't understand this logic.

Tatsujin · 10/02/2009, 08:30 AM

this thread is so full of PCE awesomeness

:overdose:

Quotejust don't understand this logic.

probably they just don't know shit about what they're really talking

awack · 10/02/2009, 08:48 AM

Now thats a good looking bonk screenshot, the original Bonk is a bit dated when compared to Revenge,III and super Bonk, an upgrade like this would be great.

termis · 10/02/2009, 09:19 AM

This debate feels so much like 1990.

So according to you, PCE WH looks better because of the ACD card, and ACD is somehow an "unfair" advantage for the PCE. Even if it is, who really f'n cares? This isn't some sporting match -- It's just comparisons of stillshots from various systems of the era.

There were shot comparisons of PCE Rondo with against PSX SOTN some threads ago, just for shits and giggles. No one was crying, "Wahhh. that's not fair!"

CrackTiger · 10/02/2009, 09:23 AM

I don't have time to make another logical argument right now, so I'll just post this-

/cartspritesm.png /cartspritess.png /cartsprites.png

awack · 10/02/2009, 10:36 AM

Its getting close to that time of year so lets put up a few Magical Chase shots.

NecroPhile · 10/02/2009, 12:33 PM

Quote from: peonpiate on 10/01/2009, 11:26 PMAnd I doubt WH2 could be done to the exact quality as the ACD-CD version was on a standard hu-card..again I think it would resemble the SNES version due to storage space limits.

If Tom says that a HuCard version could look the same as the Arcade Card version, believe it. He knows the PCE well and isn't the type to spin yarns to prove some biased point.

Quote from: peonpiate on 10/01/2009, 11:26 PMAs for my comparisons to a 32x...its only for the $$$ difference. Getting a ACD card is a addon, just as a 32x is. Thats not a straight comparison.

That's a specious argument. You may as well say that it's unfair to compare SNES games to any CD game (the TG-CD was a pricey add-on after all), and it's equally unfair to compare HuCards to the SNES library due to the cost disparity between the two by the time the SNES launched.

@ Black Tiger: Those Bonk screenies are oh so sexy. Thanks for sharing, but when's Bonk 4 coming out?

Ceti Alpha · 10/02/2009, 02:28 PM

Quote from: termis on 10/02/2009, 09:19 AMThis debate feels so much like 1990.

So according to you, PCE WH looks better because of the ACD card, and ACD is somehow an "unfair" advantage for the PCE. Even if it is, who really f'n cares? This isn't some sporting match -- It's just comparisons of stillshots from various systems of the era.

There were shot comparisons of PCE Rondo with against PSX SOTN some threads ago, just for shits and giggles. No one was crying, "Wahhh. that's not fair!"

haha. Touché.

I'm lovin' this thread though. That Bonk-update screenie looks UBER SEXT.

CrackTiger · 10/02/2009, 03:50 PM

Quote from: NecroPhile on 10/02/2009, 12:33 PM@ Black Tiger: Those Bonk screenies are oh so sexy. Thanks for sharing, but when's Bonk 4 coming out?

Top men are looking into that possibilty. Top men.

NecroPhile · 10/02/2009, 04:19 PM

Quote from: CrackTiger on 10/02/2009, 03:50 PMTop men are looking into that possibilty. Top men.

Ungghhhhhhaaaahhhhhh.....

TurboXray · 10/02/2009, 05:21 PM

Quote from: awack on 10/02/2009, 08:48 AM
Now thats a good looking bonk screenshot, the original Bonk is a bit dated when compared to Revenge,III and super Bonk, an upgrade like this would be great.

Definitely. I could do some... 3-4 layers of parallax on that too with some tricks

esteban · 10/03/2009, 02:33 AM

Quote from: Tom on 10/02/2009, 05:21 PMDefinitely. I could do some... 3-4 layers of parallax on that too with some tricks

Oh dear Lord, the second coming of Bonk. Why, it's...

Damn.

awack · 10/03/2009, 02:41 PM

Sticking with the Halloween theme.....Cotton.

The screen shots are from the first three levels only.

PCE SNES

Special fx/animation sprite rips.

PCE 31 frames

SNES 10 frames

PCE 17 frames

SNES 7 frames

PCE fire #1 12 frames, bubble 11 frames, fire #2 13 frames, cloud 18 frames.

SNES fire #1 4 frames, bubble 4 frames, fire #2 4 frames, cloud 5 frames.

_Paul · 10/03/2009, 03:18 PM

The SNES looks much nicer, more fairytale like. I always thought the PCE graphics were a little rough.

Joe Redifer · 10/03/2009, 06:48 PM

But Halloween is about being scared. The PCE one looks scary and makes me wet my pants just like everything at Halloween does because it is just so scary. The SNES one makes me feel all warm, fuzzy, secure and safe.

Anyway, we're gonna be sticking with a Halloween theme for a looong time since it is still so damned far away. Shit, my grocery store started stocking Halloween candy and stuff 3 weeks ago! Shouldn't we be decorating for Christmas already? Jesus H Christ (the "H" stands for Hernandez).

Arkhan Asylum · 10/03/2009, 07:53 PM

You know.

I think the whole PCE > everything thing boils down to this:

Yuko panty tiem.

PCE wins! thats a wrap! Good show

edit: Figures, theyre transparent gifs and the black outline is the transparency. >_<

SignOfZeta · 10/03/2009, 09:41 PM

Quote from: guestThe PCE can do great looking transparencies with flickering,

Yeah, sort of. It would be more accurate to say that on very rare occasions is does decent transparencies but usually it just does...flickering. The ones you pointed out are particularly nice since they are flickering and cycling, which, off the top of my head, I can't remember seeing a SNES do. Can the SNES do color cycling of hardware transparencies? It seems like it could, but I can't remember seeing it done. My main point though is that the PCE can't do something as simple as, say, a super bomb in Super Metroid. On the surface this may seem "unfair" since the super bomb was clearly inspired by hardware FX built into the SNES (ie: it was "designed around the hardware") but the reality is that there are loads of SNES games with fantastic transparencies that can't be done on the PCE, or at least not as well because that flickering stuff usually looks like total shit. The other big problem is that the PCE can't vary/fade the transparency, just change the rate of flicker, which is extremely un-smooth looking.

QuoteIsn't Seiken Densetsu 3 only 32 megs, why wouldn't 18 megs be enough CD access?

That was me getting side tracked. Since well made original (ie: non-port) Arcade Card titles are hella rare I was thinking in Super CD mode.

QuoteWhat exactly goes on in SD3 that the PCE couldn't even touch?

The scaling and the transparency, mostly. If you can play SD3 and actually believe that a PCE could do anything like a decent port of it, then I guess I can't penetrate your PCE obedience layer. I mean, people here like to laugh at how pathetic Dracula XX is compared to the PCE version, but if there were a PCE version of SD3 it would be even more pathetic. I might actually be better in some ways (ie: more animation) but flickering stuff that is supossed to be transparent and pre-rendered animations instead of actual scaling only work in really narrow applications. I currently don't even own a SNES, but I do know the difference between reality and fantasy, theory and practical application, being a connoisseur and being an obedient otaku. The Square-style "big budget RPG" just goes over better on SNES. Likewise, the more simplistic (in a good way), cinema/redbook/etchie stuff goes over better on PCE. For example, there is a SFC version of Emerald Dragon and I'm sure it makes us all laugh.

TurboXray · 10/03/2009, 10:16 PM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 10/03/2009, 09:41 PMThe scaling and the transparency, mostly. If you can play SD3 and actually believe that a PCE could do anything like a decent port of it, then I guess I can't penetrate your PCE obedience layer. I mean, people here like to laugh at how pathetic Dracula XX is compared to the PCE version, but if there were a PCE version of SD3 it would be even more pathetic. I might actually be better in some ways (ie: more animation) but flickering stuff that is supossed to be transparent and pre-rendered animations instead of actual scaling only work in really narrow applications. I currently don't even own a SNES, but I do know the difference between reality and fantasy, theory and practical application, being a connoisseur and being an obedient otaku. The Square-style "big budget RPG" just goes over better on SNES. Likewise, the more simplistic (in a good way), cinema/redbook/etchie stuff goes over better on PCE. For example, there is a SFC version of Emerald Dragon and I'm sure it makes us all laugh.

So... what, are transparencies and scaling 80% of the game experience or something?

QuoteI currently don't even own a SNES, but I do know the difference between reality and fantasy, theory and practical application, being a connoisseur and being an obedient otaku.

Not to be snide, but obviously you don't. There's nothing in SD3 that can't be done on the PCE per se, minus some eye candy transparencies/etc. There's nothing particular special about the SD3's game engine. Actually, it's typical snes: little-to-average action onscreen (enemies, particle fx), little-to-average frames of animation. It's about the presentation and high production value of the story/layout/design/etc that are expected of Squaresoft. That's what makes it good game. The game has nice graphics, but the PCE got the subpalettes to back that up.

QuoteI mean, people here like to laugh at how pathetic Dracula XX is compared to the PCE version, but if there were a PCE version of SD3 it would be even more pathetic.

Yeah, laugh at the port itself - not what the system itself can do. Obviously. It's not like the SNES *couldn't* handle the animation of the PCE port, it's that the port didn't. That's the key. Dracula XX on the SNES isn't an indication of the limitations of the SNES itself. Matter of fact, except for the gameplay difference - the game itself would have been a perfectly fine port/version/reimagined whatever. Even with the loss of animation due to cart constraints.

Arkhan Asylum · 10/03/2009, 10:40 PM

I think aside from the googley eyecandy, SD3 would turn out better on the PCE because of the colors/paletteage.

Plus it'd be super CD, so , hello better music, and cutscenes.

I love SD3 to death but the color choices are dull. Like Emerald Dragon on SNES did.