2nd revision of PCE Juuouki Altered Beast [+Found!]

[Psycho Punch]

OK, I don't know if it's true but I found something in Redump.org:

http://redump.org/disc/34846/
Comments
The game is mostly in English.
This version supposedly works only with the System Card 1.0.

http://redump.org/disc/34847/
Comments
The game is mostly in English.
This version seems to work with all the official system cards.

Found these codes for the disc but not sure where it's printed on disc/packaging if at all:
Juuouki (Japan) (HA10817)
Juuouki (Japan) (HA10109) - fixed ver.

All discs seem to have same data, same barcode, etc., the only difference is the CD inner ring and the number of data tracks on the actual discs.
Does anyone have any information on this second version and if there's any visual clue on the CD packaging to help distinguish one version from the other?

[NecroPhile]

I'm gonna have to check mine and see which it is.

[blueraven]

My post about this from 2008 (GODDAMN, that was awhile ago)

https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=6088

The number for the game is written on the silver ring in the disc itself;

Mine is: FLFL HA10817, and I need a syscard 1.0 to make it work. I do not have one.

[Psycho Punch]

Nice, so it is the number on the inner ring, thanks.

The arcade doesn't have parallax scrolling because it is not as powerful as the mighty Sega Genesis 16-Bit Video Entertainment System you crazy mofos!  They really tried to accomplish this in the arcade, but when they did the machine just kept blowing fuses so they had to take it out.  Only the Genesis is powerful enough to not blow a fuse (it uses a 17watt AC Adaptor... power beyond comprehension).  Oh my god the parallax in Altered Beast is sooo awesome.  If you haven't seen it yet, prepare to be amazed.  I was paralyzed for 3 days when I first saw it because the awesomeness is overwhelming.

this post is gold

[blueraven]

Glad to be of service, and the provider of ancient LULZ. 

 

[SignOfZeta]

It seems odd that a lower numbered version would be further along.

[Bernie]

It seems odd that a lower numbered version would be further along.

I was thinking the same thing. 

[ParanoiaDragon]

Nice, so it is the number on the inner ring, thanks.

The arcade doesn't have parallax scrolling because it is not as powerful as the mighty Sega Genesis 16-Bit Video Entertainment System you crazy mofos!  They really tried to accomplish this in the arcade, but when they did the machine just kept blowing fuses so they had to take it out.  Only the Genesis is powerful enough to not blow a fuse (it uses a 17watt AC Adaptor... power beyond comprehension).  Oh my god the parallax in Altered Beast is sooo awesome.  If you haven't seen it yet, prepare to be amazed.  I was paralyzed for 3 days when I first saw it because the awesomeness is overwhelming.

this post is gold

Only Joe can pull sarcasm like that off!  No one else sounds like him & his Mega Powered knowledge!

[Psycho Punch]

It seems odd that a lower numbered version would be further along.

I was thinking the same thing. 

I'm not holding my breath but the guy who uploaded the cuesheet to redump is a moderator of all things PCE there, and if I'm not wrong they take disc dumping very seriously there.

[Bernie]

They do.  I went through the process of how to dump for them, and contributed a few things.  I just find it odd THIS community has never heard of this..  Not saying it isn't true, but I would like to get the image dumped to try it out for myself.

[CrackTiger]

Mine is HA10817. :/

[NecroPhile]

Mine is also HA10817.  It did the expected halted scroll thing last night, but I forgot how often it stops to load.

[Trenton_net]

My copy also freezes unless I use the System Card 1.0 bios (In my case, a flash card programmed with it).

Edit: For that matter, does anyone know what the actual bug is in the game which causes this? Did the API for the System card change from v1.0 to v1.0+, or did they depend on a bug that was fixed in later system cards to run?

[csgx1]

Interesting, I never heard about the revision.  Mine is also a 10817 and needs the 1.0 system card.

For an added challenge, I was attempting to beat it without the 1.0 system card and not powering up to a beast.  Didn't get too far as I only got to the 2nd stage plant boss. 

[Joe Redifer]

Looks like someone is getting BANNED!

[Psycho Punch]

Looks like someone is getting BANNED!

Banned for posting a site with cue sheets.

You got game sacked bitch.

Who knew plain text disc track offsets and barcodes were protected by copyright laws.

[Joe Redifer]

That's not why. Read the last post on the linked thread on the first page.

[Psycho Punch]

don't scare me like that Joe. Looks like I really was game sacked. Bitch.

[blueraven]

Looks like someone is getting BANNED!

Are you still waiting for his response?

Its right here waiting for you.

[Joe Redifer]

That's not Google. I ain't fooled.

[esteban]

FOLLOW UP: Has anyone been able to verify that (1) the HA10109 revision exists and, more importantly, (2) that the HA10109 version supports System Card 2.0+?

[blueraven]

No,

But I went back and tested the game again after this thread. Sure enough, I needed the syscard 1.0 to get the game to run and the only way I was able to get past level 1 was by not "powering up" to the Wolf, Dragon, etc.

This is perhaps one of the most annoying glitches that I have encountered...

FOLLOW UP: Has anyone been able to verify that (1) the HA10109 revision exists and, more importantly, (2) that the HA10109 version supports System Card 2.0+?

I think another important question is WHEN was version 2.0 released and at what time... was it a reprint with the glitched fixed and only available to a select few or was it mass market? And where and for how long was it released? I hope someone can answer this question.

[dshadoff]

I think another important question is WHEN was version 2.0 released and at what time... was it a reprint with the glitched fixed and only available to a select few or was it mass market? And where and for how long was it released? I hope someone can answer this question.

I had never heard about this supposed reprint.

I was aware of the market, and the incompatibilities between the system 2.0 card and Altered Beast CDROM back when this was actually happening in roughly 1990 - although I was outside of Japan, and my import contacts were from Hong Kong at the time.

When Altered Beast was originally released, only system 1.0 card was available, and by the time system 2.0 card was available, Altered Beast was no longer current.  So, the assumption was that Altered Beast owners had a system 1.0 card to play it with.  However, there were still a few copies on shelves, and for that reason, used system 1.0 cards were making a high markup on the used market.

I am not aware of a public re-release of Altered Beast, but I expect that I would have heard about it, because it would have been easy to sell, being an arcade port (and there was still a relative dearth of PC Engine CDROM games at that point in time).

The only way that I believe that a re-release could have been possible, is as a "customer service" option within Japan only - that is, a replacement copy  for customers who complain about compatibility.  I am told that this happened for a couple of other games (I believe that Gotzendiener was one of them).

But even if this had happened, I expect that we all would have heard of a "system 2.0-compatible Altered Beast" showing up on the used market at some point over the past 25 years... which I haven't, until now.

So, I am suspicious of the existence of such an item.

-Dave

[martinine]

This is terribly interesting. I'm really in no position to get to the bottom of the mystery, but I would really love to do it. I will certainly continue to follow this thread.

[Psycho Punch]

Rise from your grave!

I'm still trying to contact this "F1ReB4LL" admin from redump.org but the forums still don't want me to create an account. It's been two years already so if someone has an account there please direct him to this thread, I'm willing to buy the FFFFHA10109-6FFFF disc version off his hands.

I talked to him via IRC and he's a cool guy. I've found the fixed version dump, pm me for link if anyone's interested. (guess it was uploaded in between these two years).

Running perfectly on my US Duo: (excuse the noob deaths on level 3 )

It's pretty puzzling how this escaped the PCE community's attention for so long... apparently not even the japanese side of the community was aware of this version since Ootake doesn't distinguish both versions of the game (it keeps wanting to use the alternate Syscard image to run the game). Kinda odd find and I'm wondering if we're ever going to see a physical copy of this game on our hands (I could ask for pictures of the game to the dumper but I didn't want to be rude asking to verify what's already verified at redump.org).

[SmokeMonster]

That is incredible. Can't wait to finally give it a play on real hardware.

[dshadoff]

I'm very interested in comparing the binary differences between the two versions.  I'll bet they are pretty tiny.

I suspect the original issue was either:
a) direct call into the system card to a function which was either undocumented, changed its implementation, or moved to a different location
b) a return value from a function which was assumed to be zero (but would have needed to be forced to zero on a later version)
c) a timing or interrupt-related issue

So, basically, I expect that the issue would be hard to find, but once identified, easily fixed.

[Keith Courage]

Hmm wonder if the newer version also brings 2 player back into the mix since thew 1st CD version did not have this?

[CrackTiger]

Hmm wonder if the newer version also brings 2 player back into the mix since thew 1st CD version did not have this?

I think that it got cut to save space somehow. Even Golden Axe for Sega-CD lost 2P mode.

[gilbert]

Just my guess. The 64kb VRAM isn't enough to hold all the graphic (animation) patterns of both players at the same time (unless both of them are of the same form), and the meager 64kb buffer RAM isn't enough to hold much more stuff for switching into VRAM in real time. This could be seen by the constant interruption from disc accesses though out each stage, and that whenever the player evolves there is disc access. That means there is simply not enough memory to hold data for a single stage plus all the players' transformations. (If this is correct, if you want to have simultaneous 2-P action and do not want to sacrifice animation details, when say P1 is in human form and P2 is a beast the game may pause for disc access even when of of them is just throwing a punch, which is unbearable). The Hucard version probably changes the graphic patterns in VRAM continuously, but with ROM bank-switching instead of disc access to load data from, so this is much more manageable. I remember someone pointed out that there are differences in the backgrounds of the two versions, and I suspect that the details in the backgrounds are simplified in the CD version too.

Some other games available on both platforms do show traces of this too. As shown in the comparison thread here (or the compiled pages), the CD version of Daisenpuu obviously has simpler graphics compared to the card release. (And I remember someone mentioned Giant Bonk in the CD version of Book 3 lacks some frames, and that's a SCD game even.)

I don't know, it may also be due to (Nova, the developer hired by) NEC Avenue's inexperience when working on early titles. Better organisation of resources and compression may help stuff more err.... stuff into memory at one time and could improve the game. There are CD games (i.e. not SCD yet) that at least seem to be able to load a lot of stuff at one time (or just too well organised that the disc accesses are not noticeable), like Ys I+II, Ys III and the Compile CD shooters. (The original Ranma game, while considered Kusoge by many, is also amazing in this part as well. It has a lot of in-game voices, parallax scrolling and large animated cutscenes that aren't infected by disc accesses like Valis IV.)

No matter what, the developers of the original CD system probably weren't very clear on what to do at the time. 64kb buffer RAM is not enough for anything serious(even the FDS has 32kb). They thought the media could be loaded in from time to time, and some could even be streamed (such as audio). But the drawback is that constant disc accesses are annoying (even more so as it's a 1X drive) and would rid a game of (awesome) redback audio if there are frequent reads within a stage. The SCD upgrade corrects much of this by giving 4 times as much RAM, only that, IMO, this amount of RAM should be there since the original system was released.

Anyway, I think it's a wrong idea in releasing the CD version of the game, as instead of demonstrating the power of the system it just shows its shortcomings. The Hucard version isn't great either, as it lacks the hilarious voice acting, which are essential for making this otherwise bland game enjoyable (even the Arcade version), and even that the backgrounds of this version isn't better than the Mega Drive version either. Accounted for all the factors, neither version on the PCE could top the MD one. Though the MD version has a lot of stuff scaled down (mostly graphic details, like animation frames, pseudo scaling of sprites and not graying out the screen at boss fight, but that last one could be regarded as a plus, as personally I like the screen to be more colourful), it has a better presentation (with the voices and the bonus parallax backgrounds) and plays much smoother (no disc access, has 2-P coop, controls better too, especially for not requiring to press UP for jumping) so the MD version just wins here.
At least the game is slightly more bearable than Golden Axe.

Oh. Back to topic! I never knew there was a fixed version of the game either. There were actually A LOT of new copies here BiTD, and I think I bought it for HK$80 (~US$10). Too bad it's the faulty version (the fixed version is probably VERY rare) and I have a PCE Duo instead of the original system. OOPS!

[NecroPhile]

'Tis cool that this is confirmed to exist.

Countdown 'til Tobias makes a anniversary box set with the fixed disc, protein shake, and dragon cock dildo......

[Psycho Punch]

64 kb of VRAM is a lot of space and I feel like there must be enough space at least for two distinct players and all stage enemies, if not you could probably do something, anything other than trying to pretend that the CD is part of a hucard like it does stopping every 5 seconds or so to """""bankswitch""""".

They probably did the least amount of effort to make the hucard code run on a CDROM and that's infuriating because it could be much better.

[NecroPhile]

It definitely smacks of peeps not knowing what they're doing, whether they weren't familiar with the how to use the hardware (and didn't have time to learn) or because they just weren't that talented.  There's plenty of other non-super cd games that look and play better, so surely a much better port was possible.

[CrackTiger]

I don't know, it may also be due to (Nova, the developer hired by) NEC Avenue's inexperience when working on early titles. Better organisation of resources and compression may help stuff more err.... stuff into memory at one time and could improve the game.

Remember, these are the guys who used a different color for the hud strip than the background it touches, instead of reworking assets to blend into a single color of shadow/sky, just using a black strip, or just using freaking sprites, since they wouldn't have broken the horizontal limit.

[CrackTiger]

I have a copy of Altered Beast CD that I bought new and opened. This thread got me thinking that maybe there's a good chance that it was left unopened because it was a late re-issue, when the game was no longer as big of a deal.

Sure enough, I just tried it out on my TurboDuo and it stopped scrolling after I got the wolf form. :/