Xanadu II Translation Development Blog

[CrackTiger]

I'm currently working on a 100% pixelart version of the official English logo (no fonts or photoshop effects used).

That's very nice, actually. My only complaint would be the giant "II" is a bit too giant, and obscures too much of that neat design in the center of the background. I think a slightly slimmer variant would be the bees knees.

I literally just threw it together to show where a II will go. It should be relatively big though, but I did envision slimmer.

If elmer is up for changing the palette, here is the kind of thing that could be done (using 13 colors):

[SamIAm]

You guys realize that we cannot go over 32 pixels in height, right?

That whole thing is 63 pixels high. The X alone is 43.

Let's squish it down:



You have to work that into something that looks good. This image is only scaled to 480x64, too. Once you take it down to 240x32, it starts having major problems. I scaled this down to the proper size, then scaled it back up:



And don't forget, that's (proportionally) 240 pixels wide, but Xanadu 1 only allows 224.

You might be able to make this concept work, but I have to say, if you set such a low ceiling/floor in order to make the background II work, the actual words are probably going to have to be tiny.

[Phase]

Another interesting concept, nice job on the font 

Well, I added 4 new colors to my concept and did some blending/anti aliasing with them was able to squeeze a little more detail out over my last pic also remade the 2 since the last one was a little jaggy.

[SamIAm]

Looking good, Phase.

Here's my first crack at changing the outline to use differing shades of light blue like the original does. I had thought there were only two, but there are really three shades in there, and the original has four bands total, with the colors arranged from top to bottom like 1, 2, 3, 2.

I originally tried to use four bands, but in short, this forced only the tails of the f and g to have the fourth, brighter band, and it looked weird. This has just three bands, in the order you would expect. It seems to make a nice gradient if I put the first two bands higher up, and so those two are each only 7 pixels tall. I might alter them later.

Or, I might do something completely different. 

Also, I added automated drop shadow on the left. This is the same color as the internal shading. I tried adding it on the bottom as well (see how the light is coming in from the upper right?), but that actually looked bad. If I do attempt to add bottom drop-shadow, it will have to be done in a customized and sparing kind of way. This is good, though - it means I don't have to resize anything to fit 31 pixels.

[SamIAm]

One more.

It occurred to me that with light coming in from above, the tops of each letter should have the lightest shade on them.

Here, I not only brought down the banding, but I changed it so that the larger letters have slightly different boundaries. I think it works, and it makes it look more like natural lighting.

The bottom band is only about 14 pixels high now, instead of 18 like before.


(238x32)

The next big thing to do is start thinking about how to use other colors via the open palette spaces to soften this. If you zoom in, you can see that Phase's logo has a lot of anti-aliasing to soften it via colors not yet set by the game, while mine has none and works in the game as-is.

Maybe we could agree on a set of extra colors to use so that poor elmer doesn't go insane trying to accommodate different palettes for each entry?

Bear in mind, we still don't know how anti-aliasing is going to look coming out of real hardware. That's something to test sooner rather than later.

[spenoza]

It is really funny to me that with all the hard work and hacking that's gone into this so far from the two of you, the title screen text has dominated conversation here for days. It SEEMS like such a trivial thing, though the attention we've all been giving it is a clear indication that that's entirely incorrect. It is something people see every time they boot the game, and sets the tone for the experience.

[esteban]

I really like several of the mock-ups...

It is really funny to me that with all the hard work and hacking that's gone into this so far from the two of you, the title screen text has dominated conversation here for days. It SEEMS like such a trivial thing, though the attention we've all been giving it is a clear indication that that's entirely incorrect. It is something people see every time they boot the game, and sets the tone for the experience.

"The last 2% requires 98% finesse." —Pliny the Middle-Aged

[Vimtoman]

I really like several of the mock-ups...




freudian psychology says you dont like any.

[elmer]

If elmer is up for changing the palette, here is the kind of thing that could be done (using 13 colors):

That's lovely ... but I really don't know how you expect me to get it into the game! 

Changing the palette is OK, it looks like I should be able to do that without any consequences.

But as SamIAm posted above, and as I've posted a few times, the limit for Xanadu 2 is 240x32, and the limit for Xanadu 1 is 224x32.

Now, it is technically possible for the PCE to display your larger logo as 64-high sprites instead of 32-high sprites, and I suspect that you're counting on that, but practically it would be a nightmare.

Ignoring that I'd have to do a lot of messing around inside the display code to do that, including possibly re-writing that "sparkle" fade-in effect, there's also the problem of memory.

I haven't looked at the memory footprint of Xanadu 1 yet, but I have taken a look at Xanadu 2, and there really isn't any free!

The Xanadu 2 opening video uses all the available memory in the PCE, including loading data into the audio memory.

The 8KB of code is almost completely full; there are only 54 bytes free for patching. That's not a lot, especially since I've already got to patch it to deal with the English names of the game's characters.

There might be a way to make it work ... but only if I remove "THE LAST OF DRAGON SLAYER" sprite, and even then it would be one heck of a lot of messing about.

Then there's Xanadu 1 ... I'd still have to check out if there's a hope-in-heck of changing it from 224 pixels to 240 pixels.

My instant reaction to putting it in is "no way".

But if you keep on working on (and it gets an exterior drop-shadow  ), then I like the idea of it enough to spend the time to see if it is even possible.

It just may well not be.

BTW ... I'm really not loving seeing Xanadu 1's purple in Xanadu 2. Is that what you're going for, or just a quick mock-up?

[geise]

I'm currently working on a 100% pixelart version of the official English logo (no fonts or photoshop effects used).

It's 240 x 64 pixels.

I wasn't sure of the cursive at first, but I have to go with this one.  They all look pretty good.  This one I think goes with the graphics on the title screen the most.

EDIT:  NM.  I didn't see he 240x32 limit for Xanadu 2.

[CrackTiger]

When I grabbed an old copy of the original logo sprite that I thought was the one elmer originally gave me, I apparently opened the first pic I made to draw the English logo beneath. Anyway, I started out basing everything on the correct dimensions  efore that and it was only when I found I had way more vertical room than I expected, that I started giving the X most of its size back.

It won't be a problem fitting it within 32 pixels of height, as only the largest letters are that tall already. I just need to see how I can make a "II" sit behind and be legible enough, but shaving a couple pixels off the talkest letters will likely do the trick. The 9 free colors in the current palette that elmer mentioned earlier are all this needs. It will also fit in Xanadu 1 no problem as if you compare it to the original "Legend of", you'll see that I actually spread the words apart further to accomodate a horizontal version of the official logo with that giant X. Now I can push them back closer together.

Obviously there's no need for any of that stuff Sam posted. This is pixelart that I drew one pixel at a time and not a photoshop job. The X is just going to be resculpted.

[TurboXray]

The Xanadu 2 opening video uses all the available memory in the PCE, including loading data into the audio memory.

The 8KB of code is almost completely full; there are only 54 bytes free for patching. That's not a lot, especially since I've already got to patch it to deal with the English names of the game's characters.

I'm not sure what you mean. I just looked and there is a ton of free space in a lot of banks, as well as vram itself, for the title screen part. The opening data gets loaded afterwards (xanadu 2 is using the new cd read lib routines, so it won't break on $e009).

[elmer]

I'm not sure what you mean. I just looked and there is a ton of free space in a lot of banks, as well as vram itself, for the title screen part.

We're talking about different parts of the game.

The Title Screen has plenty of free memory (RAM) ... VRAM would be a matter of "juggling" the free space that's there ... you'd have to change the VRAM that the "sparkle" uses ... and double the "sparkle".

The bigger problem is the "Opening Visual" ... that's part of the opening cutscenes.

That's the one that's full.

Again ... it's less a case of VRAM, but more one of RAM and hacking-space to modify the code to change the playback.

BUT ... I just tested it, if I change my compressor to "optimal" mode (which is unbelievably slow, and incredibly painful to use), I can free up about 6KB of RAM, which just might be enough. 

The opening data gets loaded afterwards (xanadu 2 is using the new cd read lib routines, so it won't break on $e009).

Put a breakpoint at $339e, that the routine that the game uses to locate a file on the CD ... when you return from that, the game maps in the bank with the CD loading code and calls it.

And there's still the question of Xanadu 1, and its 224 pixel width.

[TurboXray]

Does the intro/prologue overwrite the titlescreen area/data or does it share it? I see the 54 bytes you're talking about. What about the tail end of cdram? A quick look showed decent strings of free bytes there. If you ran the intro/prologue through bizhawk emulator and did a CD logger, you'd know for sure.

[elmer]

Does the intro/prologue overwrite the titlescreen area/data or does it share it? I see the 54 bytes you're talking about. What about the tail end of cdram? A quick look showed decent strings of free bytes there. If you ran the intro/prologue through bizhawk emulator and did a CD logger, you'd know for sure.

It loads up banks $68-$83 inclusive.

Bank $84 contains the CD loading code + some other stuff.
Bank $85 is the decompression buffer and gets constantly overwritten.
Bank $86 contains the CD directory and various data buffers that get overwritten at various times.
Bank $87 contains ... something, and also gets overwritten.

BUT ... you're absolutely right ... the (CD sector?) buffer in the last 2KB of Bank $87 does not get overwritten while the Opening Video is loaded and run, which means that I've actually got plenty of RAM to play with, as long as I can get it loaded somehow ... and I have a pretty good idea of how to do that.

So ... we've established that it should be possible  to hack the game to get Black Tiger's new 64-high logo working in Xanadu 2.

Now, can you just figure out if it's possible to expand the logo to 240 pixels in Xanadu 1's Opening Visual, and then I can get back to rewriting CC65's code-generation! 

[CrackTiger]

If that's what you really want to do, that's cool. But I can totally do an alternate version with a normal sized X and push the words closer together for LoX1. I don't think it will look as faithful or quite as nice, but it could even look better for all I know. As I've said, I'd prefer to keep things as authentic as possible, but whatever you gotta do within what you're up for doing.

[elmer]

If that's what you really want to do, that's cool.

Am I amazingly happy to have the prospect of all the extra work dumped onto me unexpectedly?

Nope. And last night I'd have said "no way can this be done".

But it looks like it's going to be possible in Xanadu 2, and it may be possible in Xanadu 1 (IMHO it needs to be the same logo in both).

At that point it is a cost/benefit calculation ... and the answer is that after a night to sleep on it, I can really see the benefit that allowing a 64-pixel height could bring.

Now, there are definitely some things that jar about the current iteration of your bigger logo, particularly the blank space between the 'a' and the 'n', and between the 'd' and the 'u'.

Those serifs are just too darned big, causing the letter spacing to result in those eye-distracting blank spaces.

There's also the question of how much space is avaiable inside the stems ... is there going to be enough room to put in the internal shadow that's in the original Japanese logo ... and then the next question, do we care about that?

Phase has done a wonderful job on his 32-pixel height logo, and the anti-aliasing work that he's done is excellent.

But it does begin to remind me of why I don't always love anti-aliasing at low resolutions on modern display devices.

It looks brilliant as a small image on my monitor while reading this forum, and I'm sure that it would look absolutely fantastic on a TV with the natural softness and blurring that that would give it ... but the when it comes to displaying it at a "playable" size on a modern high resolution display, all that anti-aliasing is too visible IMHO, and I need to squint to make it really look good.

But that's just my current reaction ... would I just get used to it over time? 

There's also a fairness issue in that Phase has been doing some great work on his logo that basically takes the same source inspiration ... it only seems fair to see if he wants to try doing a 64-pixel logo, too.

Either way ... I need to investigate whether I can get a 240 pixel wide logo working in Xanadu 1 (I think that the answer was no the last time this came up).

[SamIAm]

If you use that really slow super-compression, will it possibly stall the progression of the intro sequence to the point that transitions start taking a long time and/or it no longer finishes with the music?

In the prologue scenes that are done within the normal game-engine, each screen transition takes 5 or so frames longer in the translation than the original because of elmer's new compression. A few frames each time isn't a big deal, especially when there are only a few transitions in each scene, but if there are more transitions and more frames of delay added each time in that intro sequence, we're going to have us a syncing problem.

If we can get 64 pixels in height in both games, then I'd give a tentative thumbs up to the box-art cursive style. However, I wouldn't mind seeing a quick mock-up more like the original e.g. CrackTiger's first logo for comparison.

[CrackTiger]

Here is a 240 x 32 pixel version.





Even as I was saving these I noticed that I'd like to move the "L" a pixel closer to "egend".

Still lots of leeway to get it narrower for the first game.

[johnnykonami]

This last version of the title screen looks really professional, good job guys.

[SamIAm]

That is some skilled work on CrackTiger's part. I know I couldn't do that.

I'd like to draw people's attention to something, though:



You might look at that and think wow, the English looks even better than the Japanese! And that would be understandable, because the English here is very exciting to look at.

However, keep in mind that the original Japanese graphic, in relation to the art in the rest of the game, is not dull. Tonally, it's very well-matched, with just a little touch of its own style like a good logo should have.

At the very least, I for one would like to see BT's work de-glitzified a bit, e.g. using milder coloring and maybe making letters like the X a bit tighter, along with slimming the background II at least a little.

However, in 240x32 especially, where it's all forced to get kind of fat, and even in 240x64, I'm afraid that that box-art-style cursive might be a little over-the-top. I felt this about Phase's rendition of it, too. It's really abandoning the subtle sensibility of the original logo entirely. If we use it, then in Xanadu 2's case especially, it will be by far the most ostentatious graphic in the game.

Xanadu 2 is not a wild party or a swashbuckling adventure, nor is it a particularly glamorous affair. It's a story of the somewhat mild-mannered characters from the first game wandering almost helplessly through an unknown continent that is full of ruin and dark, beautiful nature. Even the towns in the earlier parts of the game that are clean and pretty are also very subdued.

My work is not the height of perfection, but I do think it's a lot more in line with the tone of the game itself. I'd love for someone who can draw to do what it does even better.

[Phase]

I see what SamIAm is saying, and thats why I like his version as well. It has a simplicity to it.
Definitely something to keep in mind.

In a way I like BTs smaller logo better than the bigger one, maybe the big one is too big?, so is something in between possibly the answer like 48height? Not to make you guys do more work just theoretically

When SamIAms mention anti aliasing a few post back I was going to post that I was thinking the same thing that elmer was talking about later, the AA may deviate too far from the pixel shading look even though it has its benefits. About the extra colors on my last pic even though i added 4 colors, I didn't use some of the original colors so perhaps just picking some nicer shades is the key. Anyways went back to a pixel shading look.

I think this may be my final entry for 32 height as I'm pretty happy with it, though Im always down for changing stuff based on others input. The 2 was really bothering me and after I saw BTs version I thought I'd go back and take a look at the artwork again

see that little 2 thats the new plan 

Also reading what SamIAms was saying on his gradient and lighting he made a good observation, and his is looking super nice ..so I borrowed his Idea there O:). My outline is heavier than BTs so I defo need to have a nice color gradient. also added a drop shadow back in (the first one I posted had one) but also because SamIAms looks nice :- it can always be knocked out if its too much. Well, Im having fun and learning some techniques so don't quote me on this being my final entry. 


Edit: updated had a few odd pixels and had to lose the shadow because it was looking 3d

[elmer]

If you use that really slow super-compression, will it possibly stall the progression of the intro sequence to the point that transitions start taking a long time and/or it no longer finishes with the music?

The "super-slow" part is only on the compression side, it has no effect on the decompression speed (except to make it a tiny, tiny, tiny bit faster).

It's not something that you have to worry about ... except that that it makes previewing translation changes grindingly-slow when enabled, i.e. 10 to 20 times as long to do an insertion pass ... and that's just doing one file.

I really need to look at what LZ4 for is doing for its "optimal" processing and steal it!

You might look at that and think wow, the English looks even better than the Japanese! And that would be understandable, because the English here is very exciting to look at.

However, keep in mind that the original Japanese graphic, in relation to the art in the rest of the game, is not dull. Tonally, it's very well-matched, with just a little touch of its own style like a good logo should have.

Well, if we follow that train of thought, then I think that we get back to Black Tiger's original logo idea.

IMHO, that matches the feel of the original Japanese logo, but with just a touch of it's own style.



BTW ... I find this logo easier to "read" than any of the current cursive logos (except SamIAm's) because there's a clear distinction between the letters (<EDIT> when viewed at game-display resolution, but less so at web-browser resolution).

The biggest problem that I have with SamIAm's logo in it's current form is that it has too little style of its own.

The original Japanese logo seems (to my eye) to have a "feel" that's lacking from the simple text in Sam's logo.

[Phase]

After rereading SamIAms post, I get what hes saying even more, so didn't mean to brush it aside, its just I was posting my latest. Its something worth discussing.
edit: doh elmer beat me to the next post lol

[Phase]

For the sake of argument, many RPGs aren't super happy or humorous and still have heavily stylized logos and title screens?

 Not to be too biased but imo I like both the cursive logos so far, and think they look a little more RPG like than the original and SamIAms.  The original still throws me off with the smaller words and also the font doesnt seem very rpg like and when you add the italic to it, it kinda makes me think of something speedy imo. The original english artwork doesn't really seem too crazy to me and looks like an RPG.

[SamIAm]

Thanks a million, Phase! If we keep experimenting in 240x64, I hope you'll stick around and throw in some ideas. You do good work. 

EDIT: I just saw your next post. I'd be happy to talk more about why I hesitate to embrace cursive soon, but I need to start doing real-life work.

The "super-slow" part is only on the compression side, it has no effect on the decompression speed (except to make it a tiny, tiny, tiny bit faster).

It's not something that you have to worry about ... except that that it makes previewing translation changes grindingly-slow when enabled, i.e. 10 to 20 times as long to do an insertion pass ... and that's just doing one file.

I really need to look at what LZ4 for is doing for its "optimal" processing and steal it!

Well, that's good. I mean, it's good and bad, but for our purposes, it's one less barrier to making things work.

Well, if we follow that train of thought, then I think that we get back to CrackTiger's original logo idea.

IMHO, that matches the feel of the original Japanese logo, but with just a touch of it's own style.

BTW ... I find this logo easier to "read" than any of the current cursive logos (except SamIAm's) because there's a clear distinction between the letters.

The biggest problem that I have with SamIAm's logo in it's current form is that it has too little style of its own.

The original Japanese logo seems (to my eye) to have a "feel" that's lacking from the simple text in Sam's logo.

I totally agree. One could criticize my logo in a word as "forgettable" and without better art skills, I probably won't be able to fix that. If we are in 240x32, however, I honestly think it's the best compromise of the logos currently existing; it's easy to read and stylistically appropriate.

What we really need to know is, are we going up to 64 pixels in height? Because if we are, the possibilities go into the stratosphere. That would open up a whole new round of experimenting.

I just tried blowing up the font I was using and putting the title in two lines. Without touch-ups, it's not nice to look at, but it shows a lot of promise. With a different font, we could get that slightly-chiseled look going in lowercase, plus we could do the shading exactly like the Japanese logo does it (plus external drop-shadow if we like).

[SamIAm]

Re: Why I'm not crazy about the cover-art cursive for Xanadu 2's title screen.

Let's start with a question: if they hadn't seen the cover art, would Phase or BT ever have thought to make the X like that?

I rather doubt it.

If the only reason to go with that whole style is because Falcom has used it elsewhere, I think that that's probably not enough.

On the cover itself, the cursive is thinner, the color is much lighter, the whole thing is more contained as one unit, and even though it is prominent, there are other strong and prominent visual elements to go with it. On these title screens, however, this writing gets dark and splayed out, with very noticeable outlines, and it's basically the only major thing the player looks at. At the very least, I think we have to acknowledge that it's working in a different way once we bring it over, and I'd say that anytime you do that, there's a very good chance you're just forcing it.

One of the reasons why I liked Phase's straight chiseled logo is because it emerged organically: Phase looked at the background, assessed what would fit, and proceeded from there. Something tells me it just doesn't quite strike the right chord for these games, but I feel almost sad to let it go. I still like that one more than the cursives, actually.

There's no accounting for taste, they say. My taste, for what it's worth, tells me that the cursive is simply too gaudy. Make no mistake, it also tells me that mine is nothing to get excited about, either. However, think about it like this: if you're going to a formal event, and you've only got two suits - one that's appropriate but a little dull and one that you're pretty sure is too flashy, wouldn't you pick the former? If you were choosing between two items at a buffet, and one was too salty and the other a little bland, wouldn't you go with the blander one?

I'd love to have one that hits the bullseye, but we just don't right now.

One more thing along the same lines: I'd rather undersell Xanadu 2 with the title screen than oversell it. I'd rather that players be pleasantly surprised that the game itself offers richer art than the title screen would suggest than have them be disappointed that it didn't deliver as much dazzle.

With Xanadu 1, it doesn't matter as much. That game is not only a lot brighter and peppier, but the logo only appears for a few seconds during the cutscene between the third and fourth chapter.

By all means, if you disagree with me let know how and why. 

[Phase]

Sorry if my last post was overly argumentative this is yours and Elmers project.
I was also curious though because I would have probably went with the cursive style on a 64height concept. (at least with the actual word Xanadu)

Good points and thanks for going into more detail. I don't entirely agree, but I see what your saying.
Did you guys want to pursue some 64 height concepts now?

[elmer]

Did you guys want to pursue some 64 height concepts now?

Can you just give me a little longer?

I just need to finish something off before looking at the Xanadu 1 sprite situation to see if 240-wide is achievable.

[SamIAm]

Sorry if my last post was overly argumentative this is yours and Elmers project.
I was also curious though because I would have probably went with the cursive style on a 64height concept. (at least with the actual word Xanadu)

Good points and thanks for going into more detail. I don't entirely agree, but I see what your saying.
Did you guys want to pursue some 64 height concepts now?

No no! I don't think you're being argumentative at all! On the contrary, I'd love to hear more of your perspective.

I'm happy to have this conversation with you.

CrackTiger's 64-high cursive is probably the prettiest thing we've got going. There's something to be said for that, and at that proportion, I think works well enough that it might be worth going for. Of course, with such a drastic spec change, I think we really should see another round of mock-ups before we decide. Even an additional 8 pixels in height would make the possibilities explode.

BT's 32-high cursive, as I feared it would, looks a bit cramped and fat. It's lacking the grace of the 64-high version.

By the way, I was going to ask, could you give me some examples of some of the 16-bit RPGs you were thinking of when you mentioned other games with exaggerated styles? I'd honestly love to know.

-------------

By the way, I just now had the unfair privilege of being able to try mine out on a real system and CRT in RGB.

You all might be interested to know that on my setup at least, the lightest blue outline color is less of a blue and more of an off-white, especially against the dark-green background before it fades to black. Also, the two medium blues are so close to each other that it's hard to distinguish them, although that might just be due to where the boundary is on my graphic in particular.

My first reaction to my logo was that I should probably raise the ceiling of the second band and reduce the first. What I might try is putting the brightest color on the upper right corners of all the short letters only, allowing a little more for the taller letters, and that's it.

I also think I can get away with using a fourth band on the tails of the f and g, and that it will look better. Right now, they look very blue.

In case you're wondering what I thought as a whole, here's how I'd sum it up: It doesn't really work as a logo at all. However, as a stylized title, like what you might see on the cover of a novel, it works very well.

A proper logo is admittedly preferable, though. If it's a choice between this and a moderately dysfunctional logo like elmer's mod of BT's old version, well, that's going to be tough.

[CrackTiger]

By all means, if you disagree with me let know how and why. 

Hopefully you won't regret asking, since I'm not skimping on the how and why, instead of just saying "I disagree".

That is some skilled work on CrackTiger's part. I know I couldn't do that.

I'd like to draw people's attention to something, though:



You might look at that and think wow, the English looks even better than the Japanese! And that would be understandable, because the English here is very exciting to look at.

However, keep in mind that the original Japanese graphic, in relation to the art in the rest of the game, is not dull. Tonally, it's very well-matched, with just a little touch of its own style like a good logo should have.

I was all for a faithful English version of that Japanese logo, but it actually doesn't match the art and tone of the rest of the game so well. Perhaps we'll eventually find out that it matches the intimate details of the story and dialogue, but my "exciting" logo that you commented on is the one which much better matches the game's aesthetics.










The overhead sections may use drab colors for the backgrounds, but their artwork is still super detailed and exciting by 16-bit standards and it's contrasted by vibrantly colored and nicely shaded player and misc sprites... just like my last take on the title screen.

All that I did for the shading is the inverse of the existing logo. Instead 4 or 5 shades running through the outline, I had them run through the letters and made the outlinee a single color. The color for both is the same as the original, I just used some lighter and darker shades. The II uses the exact colors of the cinematic logo in The Legend of Xanadu and the glitzy green text staggers the shades exactly the same as that existing logo does. So the coloring and shading is faithful to the series, as well as the lettering itself.

While working on this logo, I was thinking of this and this.

At the very least, I for one would like to see BT's work de-glitzified a bit, e.g. using milder coloring and maybe making letters like the X a bit tighter, along with slimming the background II at least a little.

That was just my first attempt at reworking it for 32 pixel height. The II in particular, I spent the least amount of time on. But I was trying to make sure that it stands out from behind without overpowering the title (hence the subdued outer glow).

But again, if you think that matching the aesthetics and tone of the game is more important, if anything it's not nearly glitzy and exciting enough:

Let alone the rest of the cinemas, which are full of superfluous just-for-the-sake-of-it parallax, special effects and over-the-top artwork.

But I've already been experimenting with milder alternatives and would really like to see how version of the cinematic logo and the one from the first game turn out in this style

However, in 240x32 especially, where it's all forced to get kind of fat, and even in 240x64, I'm afraid that that box-art-style cursive might be a little over-the-top. I felt this about Phase's rendition of it, too. It's really abandoning the subtle sensibility of the original logo entirely. If we use it, then in Xanadu 2's case especially, it will be by far the most ostentatious graphic in the game.

You mentioned elsewhere that the font itself was not as slim as the official logo. Like I said before, I never used a font nor re-sized anything and the 32-pixel version is still the exact same thickness of the original.





I don't have the time to re-size the pic of the original to line up perfectly, but you can see that even the letters which are out of sync are the same size as the original.

If you're also talking about the overall composition of lining everything up horizontally feeling fatter, that's fair. Even if it's over-the-top, it's still a real official logo and I remember it appearing in-game in at least the first game. But as I pointed out, aspiring towards over-the-top will only help balance the title screen and it with the game further. But it still can't compete ostentatiously with the cinemas or boss battles. If you wanted a title to surpass that stuff, I can do it, but it'll require lots of palettes and screen space.

Xanadu 2 is not a wild party or a swashbuckling adventure, nor is it a particularly glamorous affair. It's a story of the somewhat mild-mannered characters from the first game wandering almost helplessly through an unknown continent that is full of ruin and dark, beautiful nature. Even the towns in the earlier parts of the game that are clean and pretty are also very subdued.

I think that you're influenced too much by the script and don't take in the aesthetics as much as the rest of us. The Legend of Xanadu II, so much more than the first game, is the Sapphire of 16-bit RPG'ish games. They took simple straightforward Ys style gameplay and sprites, as seen in the first TLoX game and clearly set out to do the most over-the-top interpretation possible in a 16-bit game. I know, because I'd been imagining it for years before ever getting to experience the game and sold my Ys-loving friends on it by describing it for what it is.

Instead of a small barely-animated sprite with simple pixelart, the main player sprite is huge and super detailed... and animated, clearly swinging his sword when you bump into super detailed and nicely animated enemies who literally EXPLODE into large mushroom clouds and leave behind 3D animated spinning crystals. Set against super detailed realism-styled backgrounds which are full of animation, background layering and misc effects, this would seem like the true ultimate take on Ys that the Eternal/Complete games couldn't live up to. But then the game throughs multiple party members at you, who are all just as detailed and animated and all attack enemies... all at the same time!

And that's what passes as the milder filler portion of the game. The boss fights are the same ultimate Ys-upgrade that I had been imagining for Ys III. Complete with sampled voice and sound effects and an over-the-top soundtrack that is top quality by 16-bit standards for both sound and composition... yet is somehow 100% chiptunes (even the drums!).

There's nothing subdued about this stuff Especially when you compare it to its predecessor.

Re: Why I'm not crazy about the cover-art cursive for Xanadu 2's title screen.

Let's start with a question: if they hadn't seen the cover art, would Phase or BT ever have thought to make the X like that?

I rather doubt it.

I already proved that that's exactly the kind of thing I'd do:

If the only reason to go with that whole style is because Falcom has used it elsewhere, I think that that's probably not enough.

It's exactly the kind of thing that the better pixelart game localizations did. Like Dragon Warrior. If you have to make a compromise, you at least try to maintain the spirit of the original, like the Ghouls 'n Ghosts logo. And even if you're making an original pixelart era game logo from scratch, you have to think up unique things to add in to keep it from looking like your plain The Legend of Xanadu II logo. Generic font text photoshopped into low-color 16-bit res specs gives the feeling of a low budget publisher bringing over a PSP re-release. Or a fan translation that made the effect to re-insert a translated logo, but just got some guy to do the pixelart.

With that said, again that was just my first sit-down-spurt to rework it for the shorter height and all kinds of things could be done with it. But if a logo isn't going to be faithful to the Kaze no Densetu one, it should at least be as faithful a take on the official The Legend of Xanadu one as possible.

On the cover itself, the cursive is thinner, the color is much lighter, the whole thing is more contained as one unit, and even though it is prominent, there are other strong and prominent visual elements to go with it. On these title screens, however, this writing gets dark and splayed out, with very noticeable outlines, and it's basically the only major thing the player looks at. At the very least, I think we have to acknowledge that it's working in a different way once we bring it over, and I'd say that anytime you do that, there's a very good chance you're just forcing it.

Just like the Kaze no Densetsu logo, there are a lot of versions of the The Legend of Xanadu logo. It's sometimes opaque, it's sometimes super shiny and sometimes it's just kind of there.

As showed above, the cursive on my 32p version is not thinner. Obviously the color of the version on the cover is a different color, as the cover isn't literally the title screen background. The very noticeable outlines are the style of the title screen logo. The Kaze no Densetsu logo also appears all over various media without an outline.

The only kind of "forcing it" I'm concerned about is trying to use a logo without any ties to the game(s) and with sub-par pixel work. As I said before, it's the earmark of "good-enough" fan translations.

One of the reasons why I liked Phase's straight chiseled logo is because it emerged organically: Phase looked at the background, assessed what would fit, and proceeded from there. Something tells me it just doesn't quite strike the right chord for these games, but I feel almost sad to let it go. I still like that one more than the cursives, actually.

This is exactly what I did, except I took into account that Falcom never used the The Legend of Xanadu logo anywhere with any kind of sequel numbering. I realized that if they ever did, in-game or otherwise, that they definitely wouldn't use a squiggly II and that they'd do what so many similar Japanese logos have done, -stick a II behind it, which itself is in a similar style to the "Kaze no Densetsu II" II. I didn't have a chance the other days to describe all of my decisions behind the last couple logos, but I also thought that if they did a horizintal take on it and were going to put the II on the end, they'd do a KnDII-style II that's italic... which Phase just did and it's a major improvement.

There's no accounting for taste, they say. My taste, for what it's worth, tells me that the cursive is simply too gaudy. Make no mistake, it also tells me that mine is nothing to get excited about, either. However, think about it like this: if you're going to a formal event, and you've only got two suits - one that's appropriate but a little dull and one that you're pretty sure is too flashy, wouldn't you pick the former? If you were choosing between two items at a buffet, and one was too salty and the other a little bland, wouldn't you go with the blander one?

So much of what you've said for a while now seems to go against pixelart game era sensibilities, even though it would make sense for totally different products. Once again, I really don't have time to post countless examples of existing games. I can't cite examples like Makaimura, Devil's Crash, Ankoku/Makyou Densutsu, Zelda no Densetsu, Street Fighter II, etc, because I know you'll say again that you don't believe that The Legend of Xanadu II is a flashy or exciting game. But I've literally never heard anyone who's experienced it say that before, only the opposite.

One more thing along the same lines: I'd rather undersell Xanadu 2 with the title screen than oversell it. I'd rather that players be pleasantly surprised that the game itself offers richer art than the title screen would suggest than have them be disappointed that it didn't deliver as much dazzle.

Title screens are a huge deal for pixelart era game fans, which is why there are endless articles and passionate discussions about them. Whenever a homebrew game is being developed, game fans always stress the importance of a knock-your-socks-off title screen. It's not just an introductory functional menu, it is one of the most significant elements of classic games.

Again, as I pointed out, no one will feel short shrift-ed by title screen-fueled expectations once they reach seconds into this so early on into the game, let alone by the in-game aesthetics and content.

[SamIAm]

Hopefully you won't regret asking, since I'm not skimping on the how and why, instead of just saying "I disagree".

Not a bit, let's get into it. 

I was all for a faithful English version of that Japanese logo, but it actually doesn't match the art and tone of the rest of the game so well. Perhaps we'll eventually find out that it matches the intimate details of the story and dialogue, but my "exciting" logo that you commented on is the one which much better matches the game's aesthetics.

The boss battles that you posted are supposed to be special. I would estimate that an ordinary player is going to be looking at those screens for literally only ~2% of his total play-time. The rest is much, much more subdued.

Xanadu 2 is very detailed, but as a whole it's also quite dark and subtle. I would describe the palette of the game as centering on washed-out blues and greens or washed-out browns and greys, depending on the area.

Perhaps this is only to my own eye, but when switching back and forth between this and Xanadu 1, the first thing that hits me is just how much darker it is.

Even those shots you posted are not particularly bright on average.

The overhead sections may use drab colors for the backgrounds, but their artwork is still super detailed and exciting by 16-bit standards and it's contrasted by vibrantly colored and nicely shaded player and misc sprites... just like my last take on the title screen.

The only one I would describe as being vibrantly colored is Pyrra. For the most part, even though they use lighter colors, I would still say that all the character sprites including NPCs lean toward a washed-out look, if only slightly or partially.

All that I did for the shading is the inverse of the existing logo. Instead 4 or 5 shades running through the outline, I had them run through the letters and made the outlinee a single color. The color for both is the same as the original, I just used some lighter and darker shades. The II uses the exact colors of the cinematic logo in The Legend of Xanadu and the glitzy green text staggers the shades exactly the same as that existing logo does. So the coloring and shading is faithful to the series, as well as the lettering itself.

Xanadu 2 is such a huge stylistic departure from Xanadu 1 that I don't think we need any kind of through-line in the palette.

Taking colors away from the outline and putting them toward the inner blue-green might be a winning idea. Nonetheless, your current logo still strikes me as being a bit too intense. That's even in comparison to the relatively colorful boss fight screens, which again, represent the game at its very flashiest.

But again, if you think that matching the aesthetics and tone of the game is more important, if anything it's not nearly glitzy and exciting enough:

Let alone the rest of the cinemas, which are full of superfluous just-for-the-sake-of-it parallax, special effects and over-the-top artwork.

Actually, I think if you watch all the cinemas again, you'll find them to be rather static. In terms of color, there are some richer greens, some open blue skies, and some of the only use of red, orange, yellow and purple in the entire game, but that's about it. They are not orgies of color, much less animation and special effects.

Also, none of them approach the showiness of that intro. Even the first screens of the ending are still relaxed with a yellow tint and feature very little movement.

I just have to wonder, why didn't Falcom give the Japanese logo glitzy coloring?

It seems to me that whatever short bursts of vibrancy the game has, the overriding style is washed out, dark, and subtle. The bright and colorful bits are little periodic sweeteners.

If you're also talking about the overall composition of lining everything up horizontally feeling fatter, that's fair. Even if it's over-the-top, it's still a real official logo and I remember it appearing in-game in at least the first game.

It appears only once, in the credit roll, and it's fairly small.

But as I pointed out, aspiring towards over-the-top will only help balance the title screen and it with the game further. But it still can't compete ostentatiously with the cinemas or boss battles. If you wanted a title to surpass that stuff, I can do it, but it'll require lots of palettes and screen space.

I don't want to surpass that stuff or even match it. I think those moments misrepresent the game as a whole.

My favorite thing about Xanadu 2 in the graphics, story and music alike is that it's subtle.

I think that you're influenced too much by the script and don't take in the aesthetics as much as the rest of us. The Legend of Xanadu II, so much more than the first game, is the Sapphire of 16-bit RPG'ish games.

By the same token, I might say you're too influenced by how much prettier this is than other PC Engine games. It is probably the nicest looking game on the system.

Taken completely on its own and as a whole, this just isn't a flashy game. It's beautiful, it's detailed, it animates well, but it's not flashy.

I already proved that that's exactly the kind of thing I'd do:

Like I said before, that design was totally fine until we realized we needed "The". Now it's flawed, and I hope we can do better.

If the ceiling rises by even just a few pixels, we might be able to fix it, too.

It's exactly the kind of thing that the better pixelart game localizations did. Like Dragon Warrior. If you have to make a compromise, you at least try to maintain the spirit of the original, like the Ghouls 'n Ghosts logo. And even if you're making an original pixelart era game logo from scratch, you have to think up unique things to add in to keep it from looking like your plain The Legend of Xanadu II logo.

With that said, again that was just my first sit-down-spurt to rework it for the shorter height and all kinds of things could be done with it. But if a logo isn't going to be faithful to the Kaze no Densetu one, it should at least be as faithful a take on the official The Legend of Xanadu one as possible.

I'm very happy if we can come up with something that takes a lot from authentic Falcom Xanadu materials.

I also understand that some risk has to be taken if we're going to go with something original.

I guess all I can say is, I haven't seen anything from you yet that I think will work, especially in 240x32. Your latest idea might evolve into something good. We'll just have to see. I understand that what you posted is just a "beta-version".

This is exactly what I did, except I took into account that Falcom never used the The Legend of Xanadu logo anywhere with any kind of sequel numbering. I realized that if they ever did, in-game or otherwise, that they definitely wouldn't use a squiggly II and that they'd do what so many similar Japanese logos have done, -stick a II behind it, which itself is in a similar style to the "Kaze no Densetsu II" II. I didn't have a chance the other days to describe all of my decisions behind the last couple logos, but I also thought that if they did a horizintal take on it and were going to put the II on the end, they'd do a KnDII-style II that's italic... which Phase just did and it's a major improvement.

That's not really what I was talking about.

If you had never seen either the cover-art cursive OR the kaze-no-densetsu logo in any of their incarnations, and you only knew the game itself and the background of the title screen, how would you draw "The Legend of Xanadu II" in 240x32?

So much of what you've said for a while now seems to go against pixelart game era sensibilities, even though it would make sense for totally different products. Once again, I really don't have time to post countless examples of existing games. I can't cite examples like Makaimura, Devil's Crash, Ankoku/Makyou Densutsu, Zelda no Densetsu, Street Fighter II, etc, because I know you'll say again that you don't believe that The Legend of Xanadu II is a flashy or exciting game. But I've literally never heard anyone who's experienced it say that before, only the opposite.

I'm no student of pixel-art, but I think there's a very good reason why Falcom didn't make their title screen glitzy. Xanadu 2 is supposed to be somewhat sophisticated. Many other games from the era cultivate a bright kids-cartoony atmosphere, but this one doesn't.

It's a fine wine. It knows it mostly sells itself.

Title screens are a huge deal for pixelart era game fans, which is why there are endless articles and passionate discussions about them. Whenever a homebrew game is being developed, game fans always stress the importance of a knock-your-socks-off title screen. It's not just an introductory functional menu, it is one of the most significant elements of classic games.

I would love to get something more beautiful than my utilitarian logo. I don't, however, want use something that is gaudy or structurally/functionally flawed.

In closing, I'll say that if 240x64 works, then your cursive will go to the top of the list. Whether it will stay there, I simply can't say.

Anyway, thanks for posting. Let's keep up the discussion moving forward. 

[elmer]

I'll probably weigh in with my feelings on the stylistic aspects that we're talking about tomorrow, but I'm too knackered at this point to want to enter that particular stratospheric realm of discussion.   

In the meantime ... the SWD5 compressor is giving me lots of space left to hack stuff in on the Xanadu 1 Opening Visual (so-called, even though it doesn't appear until you've finished the 3rd level in the game).

At this point, I see no reason why it wouldn't be possible to get a 240x64 logo working in Xanadu 1.

It'll take a lot of work ... especially for a logo that's only on screen for approx 8 seconds in the entire game ... but "yes", it's worth it.

This logo is (to my mind) one of the graphical links between the 2 games.

And the "Legend of Xanadu" logo appears on both of the original game boxes.

If expanding on the original Japanese logo to allow for 64-pixels height will allow us to get a great English logo then I think that it is worth my time in trying to make it work.

I don't overly love the attempts to recreate the box-art logo when it's been compressed down into 32-pixels of height.

They're both amazing in their technical skill ... but that logo just doesn't look good when it is squashed down into those few pixels.

OTOH, Black Tiger's 64-pixel logo gave a hint of how good looking and well-proportioned the original box-art logo could eventually look on screen, if given a decent amount of space.

So ... the game is afoot! 

[Phase]

Some interesting views and opinions that are based on the game. My opinion having not actually played the game (yet) is more basic; that the cursive doesn't stand out too much to me, and compared to other rpgs doesn't bother me. When I briefly googled some rpg title screens (mainly SNES) about half seemed basic font like and the other half ranging from medium to heavily stylized. Also like I mentioned the cursive just seems rpg like imo for some reason.
Still like I said I can understand some of SamIAms views. But will let you guys discuss it since it seems more based on having played the game.

Good news on the 64 height  whipped up what I was thinking quickly in the past couple hours here. first one is kinda what I think of after reading SamIAms opinions though I could be way off.
made it kind of low contrast, glassy, basic/simple



Then did one with the cursive Xanadu higher contrast more like the J Title screen, side note I was able to make it fairly quickly since I originally traced the art with vector paths so just had to scale it up luckily.

[SamIAm]

I like where this is going already. The extra space is really changing things for the better!

First off, I am probably not going to be making more mock-ups just because I'm not an artist, and exploiting the extra vertical pixels is going to more about artistry compared to just the technical challenge of getting the title to fit into 240x32.

Besides, I need to get back to focusing on the script. 

Phase, your second pic does not cross the line for me like the previous 32-high cursives did. It's got more simplicity and class. It's probably my favorite of all of your submissions so far.

Can you bring down the brightness just a smidge? I fear that that's going to be partially white on-screen as it is.

I'd love to see any number of color variations you'd like to share, honestly. Fair warning: we'll probably want to stay in the blue-green spectrum for Xanadu 2 and the purple spectrum for Xanadu 1.

As for your first pic, well, even I think you can be a bit more daring on the font than that.  But you can focus on the second one for now.

Anyway, thanks again! 

[elmer]

A proper logo is admittedly preferable, though. If it's a choice between this and a moderately dysfunctional logo like elmer's mod of BT's old version, well, that's going to be tough.

Moderately dysfunctional, eh? Them thar's fightin words! 

One final set of changes to the old logo before it gets steamrollered by the expanded possibilities of a 64-pixel logo! 

I've made the leading "L", the "X" and the "II" one pixel taller to help them stand out more.

I've also moved the words apart more so that the "THE" and the "OF" are now properly separated from the other words.

I've also applied the interior drop-shadow to them and applied shading on their outlines.

I'd be happy to ship the translation with this version of the logo ... but I expect that we'll end up with something prettier. 

Once other thing ... I've ranted on about the use of drop-shadows to help small text pop off the screen and be readable.

Falcom put a side-only drop-shadow on the menu text on the title screen, and it's been bugging me for ages.

In this mockup I've expanded the drop-shadow to the bottom of the text too so that it's more readable.

I'm almost-certainly going to do this in-game as well, for both readability, and for consistency with the drop-shadows in the message boxes.

Unless there's some massive outcry about it ... which would surprise me, since the shadowing on that screen is inconsistent anyway.

[CrackTiger]

I've been meaning to try doing italic THE and OF for that version of the logo and maybe touch up a few of the letters.


If the 64 pixel high logo becomes a reality, will it still require a single palette?

[elmer]

I've been meaning to try doing italic THE and OF for that version of the logo and maybe touch up a few of the letters.

I don't think that there's enough space left for nice italic letters in there, but I'd love to see the attempt. 

There are definitely a few spots on the letters that could do with a little cleanup. 

If the 64 pixel high logo becomes a reality, will it still require a single palette?

At this point, yes. Expanding from 32-high to 64-high (in Xanadu 2) should just be a case of changing a bit in the sprite definitions.

Doubling the number of sprites to get a different palette in the bottom half, and adding a whole extra palette, would be rather more annoying to do. I'd really need to see some massive benefit.

[SamIAm]

Were these ever posted earlier in the thread? I don't remember, and it would take a long time to check, so let me put up some fresh ones.

This is what the title graphic looks like in Xanadu 1. It dissolves in on a totally black screen, and almost immediately after the panning background comes in, starts dissolving right back out.



---------------------------------------

Also, this is from the credit roll of Xanadu 1. What happens is, the graphic dissolves in from blackness, just like the one above. Then it palette-shifts into becoming part of the stone background, over which the credits start rising.

I have to admit, in terms of sheer dimension, this is larger than I was remembering. It also makes me feel a little better about the prospect of using all-cursive in the title screen for Xanadu 2. However, I would still want it to be tight, whispy, and modestly colored. I think it would only work in 64-high.

Note that it does not appear in the credit roll of Xanadu 2, which I just checked, nor anywhere else in that game IIRC.

[SamIAm]

A proper logo is admittedly preferable, though. If it's a choice between this and a moderately dysfunctional logo like elmer's mod of BT's old version, well, that's going to be tough.

Moderately dysfunctional, eh? Them thar's fightin words! 

By no shortcoming of your skill or artistic sensibility do I find fault with your logo (I know you're just joking, too). I simply think, as you can probably guess, that since the base was not designed with THE in mind to begin with, it just doesn't work that well to put it in there. It's not particularly easy to read, and the whole seems off-balance. It's like whoever made it wasn't taking THE seriously. Plus, the II and the U still look cramped.

As important as looking "logo-like" is, I suspect that if you presented yours and mine side-by-side to various strangers, gamers and non-gamers alike, and took a poll, mine would get the greater number of favorables. Unexciting as it may be, it's a lot more harmonious.

We seem to be starting to refer to this title graphic as a "logo" now. One thing that occurred to me when I took those screenshots for my last post is that that golden cursive is The Legend of Xanadu's logo. In other words, it already has one. If we make another, it will have two. In the first game especially, the Japanese kaze-no-densetsu graphic is perhaps not really a logo so much as a title, which then wouldn't be meant to compete with the golden cursive.

All this really means, I suppose, is that we don't have to worry that much about making this graphic particularly logo-like. Let's just make sure it looks good, fits the part, and doesn't cause any huge conflict.

[SamIAm]

EDIT:

Ah, screw all this crap. It doesn't matter. Let's just get something that looks nice.

[Phase]

Interesting stuff, is there any further info we can get out of the manuals or art that could help?
Like is the cursive used much in it or just on the cover?

Edit: yeah after looking on google and pcengine.co.uk it's on most everything so why is not really in the game more prominently? (other than the first ending) and its not even in the second game.. that is weird.

I gotta take a look at that ending graphic thats pretty neat.

[Phase]

Quick mod darkened it up, added the J text from the ending graphic, raised it a little.

[Vimtoman]

Spot on.

[elmer]

Quick mod darkened it up, added the J text from the ending graphic, raised it a little.

It looks much nicer in darker colors! 

But I'm still not convinced (yet) about the thick outline on the letters. 

You posted while I was still messing with my test ... here's your logo that I recolored and reduced the outline thickness.

[SamIAm]

I don't think we need the Japanese along the bottom, which is partially illegible anyway.

Otherwise, that looks really, really good. 

It's hard to say about the outline thickness. I can see the appeal of both. It's probably worth a test on a real system/CRT.

-----------------------------

I could puzzle over the significance and balance and usage of the title/logo art that Falcom made across the two games for ages, but I guess all that matters is that what they did doesn't make a lick of sense, so we shouldn't worry about it too much.

Let's just get something really nice and appropriate for the Xanadu 2 title screen that also copies over to that Xanadu 1 cutscene without causing any major problems.

Is 240x64 a lock yet? Pressure's on, elmer. 

Black Tiger, if you want to bring your 64-high full-cursive version to the next level, I'd love to see it. 

[SamIAm]

I watched the whole Xanadu 1 credits, and when they're through, the logo fades back out of the wall to look like this:



It was cool to see that the director, Yoshio Kiya, was also one of the main programmers. 

[elmer]

Let's just get something really nice and appropriate for the Xanadu 2 title screen that also copies over to that Xanadu 1 cutscene without causing any major problems.

Is 240x64 a lock yet? Pressure's on, elmer. 

Whoops, wasn't I clear before? ... The answer is "Yes". 

Xanadu 1's Opening Visual was compressed with Falcom's old compressor ... my new compressor frees up enough memory to allocate a complete 8KB block for customization code, which is going to be plenty to do whatever I need to make the 240x64 logo work.

[Phase]

Thats interesting you went into the outline, I actually tested a thinner outline and a hybrid of thick and thin last night, so Ill post those a little later. Will also lose the Japanese text and take a closer look at your test as well.

[spenoza]

I actually like the inclusion of the Japanese. It's a kind of nod to some of the branding used in the JPN version. I think it's a bit of circular homage.