Memoirs addendum: "The R-Type Memo"

PCEngineFX · 10/08/2007, 02:01 AM

Welcome to a special Turbo Memoirs addendum feature: "The R-Type Memo".
(The following document has been acquired by pcengine-fx.com and is 100% authentic. Because of the nature of the document, names have been removed and a Pcenginefx watermark added.)

In this document (created by the TGX-16 Game Support Group back in 1989 and addressed to Hudson Soft), they address the flickering issue with R-Type. Hudson's reply to this memo will be reveled in part 2 of this post.

Turbo D · 10/08/2007, 02:05 AM

Wow, this is awesome. thanx for sharing this Aaron

. I always wondered if anyone cared that the games they released had flicker or not.

Keranu · 10/08/2007, 03:51 AM

Holy, holy crap! First of all, I have NO idea how you get your hands on this stuff, Aaron, but it is really frickin' awesome! Now more importantly, I am sure this has to be the reason why the USA version had a shorter resolution in width so it could reduce the flickering! We have discussed this before in this thread and this document pretty much confirms it so I am willing to bet that Hudson's response to this document mentions this!

I really look forward to the next update with Hudson's reply. Also on a side note, I noticed that when I was comparing the American and Japanese versions of R-Type, the Japanese title screen says "strike the empire" (or however it goes) while the American screen says "attack the empire". Does anyone know a reason for this?

It's really amazing how strict America is with this issue and it only gives me more respect for the Turbo Grafx 16

. I'd love to see any other technical situations that TGX-16 or any other American group disapproved of. Perhaps the addition of parallax scrolling in Exile: Wicked Phenomenon wasn't just an idea by Working Designs.

Joe Redifer · 10/08/2007, 04:42 AM

That's pretty awesome, Aaron. They definitely did have a point. It flickered almost as much as the SMS version.

Keranu, the attack/strike thing may be a difference in the Japanese/US versions of the arcade and the home versions in each region may reflect that. But I'm just guessing. However keep in mind that I have never been wrong about anything in my entire life.

Keranu · 10/08/2007, 05:21 AM

I was wondering if the strike/attack thing was in the arcades as well, but my question still remains if that's the case.

Joe Redifer · 10/08/2007, 05:37 AM

Remember that Nintendo released the R-Type arcade here in America. "Attack" may sound far too evil for Nintendo.

Keranu · 10/08/2007, 05:43 AM

Attack was the word used in America, strike was used in Japan.

PCEngineFX · 10/08/2007, 01:58 PM

I'm entirely grateful that stuff like this even exists today and that I'm able to preserve (and present!) them.

NecroPhile · 10/08/2007, 01:59 PM

Very interesting - thanks for sharing, Aaron.

I'm betting that they changed it to 'attack' in the US so that stupid Americans wouldn't get confused and think that it was a bowling game.

Keranu · 10/08/2007, 05:59 PM

QuoteI'm betting that they changed it to 'attack' in the US so that stupid Americans wouldn't get confused and think that it was a bowling game.

Or baseball ;) .

Joe Redifer · 10/08/2007, 06:46 PM

We Americans like attacking things, too. So maybe it was changed to "attack" in order to get our testosterone flowing and make us say "I'M PUMPIN' QUARTERS INTO THIS MOTHERFUCKER ALL DAY!!!" or "GOD DAMN I'M BUYING ME ONE OF THEM TURBO THINGS AND R-TYPE AND ATTACKING SOME ALIEN TERRORIST ASS!!!"

Joe Redifer · 10/11/2007, 12:38 AM

I'm ready for part 2 of this post.

Keranu · 10/11/2007, 01:50 AM

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 10/11/2007, 12:38 AMI'm ready for part 2 of this post.

Me too. It will be the ultimate proof of why America kicks ass

.

PCEngineFX · 10/11/2007, 01:57 AM

Quote from: Keranu on 10/11/2007, 01:50 AMMe too. It will be the ultimate proof of why America kicks ass .

LOL! Ok...well, prepare for some ass kicking in an hour or two from now (part 2 coming up).

Keranu · 10/11/2007, 02:02 AM

Rad to the max! I'll stay up for it

!

PCEngineFX · 10/11/2007, 03:10 AM

Welcome to a special Turbo Memoirs addendum feature: "The R-Type Memo".
(The following document has been acquired by pcengine-fx.com and is 100% authentic. Because of the nature of the document, names have been removed and a Pcenginefx watermark added.)

This is the response Hudson gave to TurboGrafx management answering the issue of the sprite flickering in R-Type.

Joe Redifer · 10/11/2007, 03:33 AM

Interesting response. They should have referenced the Japanese version on the PC Engine since that one would have slightly more flicker due to the slightly higher resolution. They should have said something like "We love America and made sure to fix the problem the best we could compared to the Japanese version since anyone who buys a system with a rad smiling dude on the box expect top quality!"

I don't know where you are getting these, but it is awesome to read this stuff. I also just noticed how the watermark seems to be "behind" the text itself instead of just a partially transparent image. Are you luma keying?

EDIT: Now I want to go play R-Type.

PCEngineFX · 10/11/2007, 03:47 AM

The appearance that the watermark is "behind" the text is just an optical illusion (I did a 50% fade on the layer...that's it).

Keranu · 10/11/2007, 03:51 AM

Wasn't the response I was expecting, but still interesting to read. I was hoping they would specifically mention the resolution, but I guess they decided on that after this was released.

nat · 10/11/2007, 10:41 AM

Quote from: Pcenginefx on 10/11/2007, 01:57 AM
Quote from: Keranu on 10/11/2007, 01:50 AMMe too. It will be the ultimate proof of why America kicks ass .
LOL! Ok...well, prepare for some ass kicking in an hour or two from now (part 2 coming up).

Aaron snubbed us.

It's almost 12 hours later and no part 2!!!

NecroPhile · 10/11/2007, 11:14 AM

Quote from: nat on 10/11/2007, 10:41 AMAaron snubbed us.

It's almost 12 hours later and no part 2!!!

Huh?!? Did you miss Reply #15 posted today at 12:10:00 AM (nearly 8 hours ago)?

nat · 10/11/2007, 11:33 AM

Quote from: guest on 10/11/2007, 11:14 AM
Quote from: nat on 10/11/2007, 10:41 AMAaron snubbed us.

It's almost 12 hours later and no part 2!!!
Huh?!? Did you miss Reply #15 posted today at 12:10:00 AM (nearly 8 hours ago)?

I guess I did. I must not have noticed there was a second page of messages.

PCEngineFX · 10/11/2007, 11:38 AM

Quote from: nat on 10/11/2007, 10:41 AM
Quote from: Pcenginefx on 10/11/2007, 01:57 AM
Quote from: Keranu on 10/11/2007, 01:50 AMMe too. It will be the ultimate proof of why America kicks ass .
LOL! Ok...well, prepare for some ass kicking in an hour or two from now (part 2 coming up).
Aaron snubbed us.

It's almost 12 hours later and no part 2!!!

I would never snub you guys!

nat · 10/11/2007, 11:51 AM

As far as the response goes, I agree with Keranu, it's not at all what I was expecting.

People keep referencing the Japanese version as having more flicker than the US version, but the difference is surely negligible. Their slight reduction in resolution had little effect. Playing the two versions back to back I'm hard pressed to point out where flicker present in the Japanese version is absent from the US version.

I still believe had the game been released later in the console life the programmer's would've found ways to greatly reduce the flicker, however.

Also, I'm a little puzzled by the response given in that letter. The writer sites "access times" as the cause of the flicker. But isn't the real reason the sprite-per-scanline limitation? I've never heard "access times" used to explain away anything negative about a game on a cartridge-based system.

EDIT: Aaron, will you be adding this to the Turbo Memoirs site itself?

Kitsunexus · 10/11/2007, 12:54 PM

So their response was "LOL not our fault!" ? Wow, that's kind of lazy.

PCEngineFX · 10/11/2007, 01:30 PM

Quote from: nat on 10/11/2007, 11:51 AMAlso, I'm a little puzzled by the response given in that letter. The writer sites "access times" as the cause of the flicker. But isn't the real reason the sprite-per-scanline limitation? I've never heard "access times" used to explain away anything negative about a game on a cartridge-based system.

I too raised an eyebrow at the "access times" statement. So they are saying that the cart couldn't send the info fast enough to the system, thus causing the flicker?...ehhhh

Quote from: nat on 10/11/2007, 11:51 AMEDIT: Aaron, will you be adding this to the Turbo Memoirs site itself?

Maybe...not sure. I like the idea of making forum exclusive features as they are easier and faster to get online. Plus I can get instant feedback and discussion going about the feature right away from people instead of just waiting for email. I will be doing more forum exclusive features in the future so watch for them!

Kitsunexus · 10/12/2007, 01:50 PM

Here is the illustrated version of this story. (1.51 MB)

Odonadon · 10/12/2007, 02:19 PM

Quote from: Kitsunexus on 10/12/2007, 01:50 PMHere is the illustrated version of this story. (1.51 MB)

Nice, but that wasn't TTI back then

That was a very lazy response on Hudson's behalf. I am irked by the "the programmers felt that if they HAD to give up something, they would rather have some flicker than tamper with the gameplay". Basically Hudson is saying: "Look, the gameplay is great, and more important than graphics, so shut up". Gameplay wasn't even mentioned as an issue by Irem.

PCEngineFX · 10/12/2007, 02:36 PM

Quote from: Kitsunexus on 10/12/2007, 01:50 PMHere is the illustrated version of this story. (1.51 MB)

I LOL'd. You should make a cartoon series related to the NEC consoles!

Kitsunexus · 10/12/2007, 03:02 PM

Quote from: Odonadon on 10/12/2007, 02:19 PMNice, but that wasn't TTI back then

I need to brush up on my Turbo history.

Quote from: Pcenginefx on 10/12/2007, 02:36 PMI LOL'd. You should make a cartoon series related to the NEC consoles!

I'm not good enough. I'm glad you liked it though.

nat · 10/12/2007, 05:45 PM

Kitsunexus, where do you come up with these images?

You always seem to have the "right" image on hand at any given moment. Do you keep a virtual catalog of every image in the world on your hard drive?

Joe Redifer · 10/12/2007, 06:00 PM

I LOL'd as well, despite the TTI reference.

NecroPhile · 10/12/2007, 06:19 PM

Nice job, Kitsune! Paddle ball is always good for a laugh.

Keranu · 10/12/2007, 11:26 PM

I love the art of the dude with glasses.

Kitsunexus · 10/13/2007, 02:40 AM

Quote from: nat on 10/12/2007, 05:45 PMDo you keep a virtual catalog of every image in the world on your hard drive?

Yeah, I have Google Image Search bookmarked.

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 10/12/2007, 06:00 PMI LOL'd as well, despite the TTI reference.

I know, I'm sorry.

I'm glad you liked it though.

Quote from: guest on 10/12/2007, 06:19 PMNice job, Kitsune! Paddle ball is always good for a laugh.

And they're awesome too. I wish I still had my Shaq paddle ball. ^_^

Quote from: Keranu on 10/12/2007, 11:26 PMI love the art of the dude with glasses.

Thank you! He was my favorite to draw. ^__^

Turbo D · 10/13/2007, 03:26 AM

cool cartoon dude

Kitsunexus · 10/13/2007, 03:34 AM

Quote from: turbo D on 10/13/2007, 03:26 AMcool cartoon dude

Thankies! ^_________________________^

nat · 10/13/2007, 05:16 AM

Quote from: Kitsunexus on 10/13/2007, 02:40 AM
Quote from: nat on 10/12/2007, 05:45 PMDo you keep a virtual catalog of every image in the world on your hard drive?

But still, you must know what to search for to find these images.

You never cease to amaze.

spenoza · 10/13/2007, 10:47 AM

So, getting back to the memo, is it safe to say, then, that Hudson's response amounts to "We kinda ported some of the code and this is as nice as we could get it considering we didn't want to just reprogram the whole damn thing properly." ?

nat · 10/13/2007, 01:55 PM

Quote from: guest on 10/13/2007, 10:47 AMSo, getting back to the memo, is it safe to say, then, that Hudson's response amounts to "We kinda ported some of the code and this is as nice as we could get it considering we didn't want to just reprogram the whole damn thing properly." ?

Pretty much.

If this is kind of indifference Hudson Japan/NEC had towards the American market, it's no big surprise the machine wasn't a commercial success in the US.

Keranu · 10/13/2007, 06:21 PM

Quote from: Kitsunexus on 10/13/2007, 02:40 AMAnd they're awesome too. I wish I still had my Shaq paddle ball. ^_^

May I require further info for this "Shaq paddle ball"?

Ravij · 11/02/2007, 01:59 AM

Quote from: Pcenginefx on 10/11/2007, 01:30 PM
Quote from: nat on 10/11/2007, 11:51 AMAlso, I'm a little puzzled by the response given in that letter. The writer sites "access times" as the cause of the flicker. But isn't the real reason the sprite-per-scanline limitation? I've never heard "access times" used to explain away anything negative about a game on a cartridge-based system.
I too raised an eyebrow at the "access times" statement. So they are saying that the cart couldn't send the info fast enough to the system, thus causing the flicker?...ehhhh

Quote from: nat on 10/11/2007, 11:51 AMEDIT: Aaron, will you be adding this to the Turbo Memoirs site itself?

I think the 'access times'* is actually referring to the video memory bandwith, not the cartridge's. (*probably got badly translated as this, from Japanese)

You have to remember that 20 years ago RAM chips (as indeed all chips) were a hell of a lot slower than they are today. That was the main limiting factor in having more colours on screen or higher resolution screens. True Sprites also eat into this bandwith as they are actually overlaid into the video data being fed to the display (by direct memory access - DMA). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprite_%28computer_graphics%29

Since the memory/video memory of the machine is running a fixed rate, there is only so much bandwith available = limitations on the number of sprites on screen. This would also mean that if you dropped the resolution a bit, there would be more bandwith left over for sprites.

Anyone with an Amiga in the 80's will probably remember Chip RAM v Fast RAM - Fast RAM was faster purely because it was not shared with the graphics and sound co-processors, giving more bandwidth for the CPU.

These days of course we have graphics cards with dedicated ultra high bandwith memory on them in our PC's, so it's not an issue.

spenoza · 11/13/2007, 01:41 PM

As a technical explanation that makes a lot of sense. Thanks!

Still, later games proved that this wasn't as much a hard and fast limitation. But it could be that R-Type was made on earlier dev kits without proper access to all the libraries and capabilities of the system. The original hucards are Nos. 7 & 8 or something like that in the Hudson PCE collection.

nat · 11/13/2007, 01:57 PM

Oh, yeah.

There has never been any doubt in my mind that had R-Type been ported post-1990 we would have been treated to a much finer product.

That's what bugged me about the CD version released in 1991-- nothing was done to fix the few (but nagging) problems present in the early port.

geepee16 · 12/05/2007, 09:46 PM

the Cd version was disappointing. i can't believe they didn't address the issues in these games. btw, the strike/attack thing may be easy to explain. the japanese word for both of these is 'syageki' (among others). whoever localized it probably (and i guess correctly thought that attack worked better. the japanese person who put the 'strike' in was just going for a cool looking word to impress his\her non-english speaking japanese audience. he\she opened a dictionary, looked up syageki, saw the multiple meanings (assault, attack, strike, etc) and chose the coolest sounding one. when the game was localized, they probably put 'attack' in there to avoid any possible japanese english which was WAY too common...and still is.

2/13/2025: Localization News - Cosmic Fantasy 3-4!

Memoirs addendum: "The R-Type Memo"