Game Sack

[majors]

So serious question, besides those, what are the "good" Jaguar games?

Probably not the best forum to ask that question.

MGC was started out for "Jagfest" and there is always a small outpost of rabid fans with a few systems running, I bet they would tout the Jags merits. Personally, T2K is the only reason to own one.

One of the early Jaguar emulators was called "PT"...short for Project Tempest. It seems the programmers just wanted to play Tempest

[nopepper]

It has the kind of library that ignorant people insist the PC Engine needed.

EDIT: I could just see someone complaining "The PC Engine sucks because it needs more games like the Jaguar had". That legit wouldn't surprise me. And it absolutely amuses me!

I'm not sure if these statements compute...You mean to tell me that some of these "rabid fans" actually think the Jaguar library is superior to the PCE?

Probably not the best forum to ask that question.

MGC was started out for "Jagfest" and there is always a small outpost of rabid fans with a few systems running, I bet they would tout the Jags merits. Personally, T2K is the only reason to own one.

Man, I will not join another forum just to ask this question, as I have very little interest in the Jaguar. Besides, there is at least one of these fans in these forums (Pfloydguy2), who can hopefully answer my questions.

Right now, my curiosity has been piqued as to why there are "rabid fans" for a system that has always looked like almost complete garbage to me. Am I missing something? Are these rabid fans just mostly peeps who grew up with Atari and thus migrated to the Jaguar? Is it because its very easy to develop for and has a healthy homebrew scene (which has been my impression since the early 2000s).

Also, I was never a huge fan of the original Tempest in the arcades, so the excitement for Tempest 2000 was lost on me. Super Burnout looks like a decent super scaler ripoff...that is probably the most appealing game I've seen for the Jaguar so far. <shrugs>

[seieienbu]

lol Project Tempest is the only Jaguar emulator I've ever used.  I downloaded it when I wanted to play Tempest one night while my Jaguar was somewhere else.

I always thought Battlesphere sounded cool.  The idea of a 16 (I think?) player game on the Jaguar seemed both unlikely to ever happen but something I wanted to see at some point.

The Jaguar definitely isn't my favorite console but I think it has enough unique games that it's worth a look from anyone who's never given it one.

[Joe Redifer]

Yeah I think if a proper flash cart does indeed come out I'll pick one up along with some RGB SCARTz. I don't want to actively collect for it.

[majors]

Right now, my curiosity has been piqued as to why there are "rabid fans" for a system that has always looked like almost complete garbage to me. Am I missing something?

I do not think you are missing anything. I have no love for Jag(but I did repair one last week for a buddy who run a games store, that in the past 6 months have sold 3 Jags). As for the fans' fever for it, I think it's like you said...hardcore Atari fans with the bonus of a decent homebrew scene.

To be fair, I was working Babbages for the Jag launch...it never seemed to have taken a foot hold in the market, even 3do sold better and had better game line up. I'm not a Atari hater by any means...I love my Lynx but I'm first to admit it has a limited library of games I enjoy.

Sounds like you've got the itch already, only solution is to EMU or get a console to scratch that itch.

[Pfloydguy2]

So I watched the Jag episode and felt it was fair. Couldn't find the Lynx episode.

It's been awhile since I watched most of their stuff.  I believe they mention the Lynx and Lynx games in a few episodes, but as Joe mentioned, there isn't a dedicated Lynx episode.

I went back and watched the Jaguar episode again last week, to see if maybe I was just remembering things poorly.  It seemed obvious from the beginning of the episode that both guys assumed the Jag was a joke.  Some things stuck out to me as bad information, like when Joe said Wolfenstein 3D on the Jag didn't look any better than the other versions.  The Jag version (and I think the Mac and 3D0 ones maybe?) had a significant graphical upgrade over the PC version and most others.  The difference is quite obvious when you compare them side by side.  It's just things like that that give the impression they didn't do their homework and thus didn't give the Jag a fair analysis.

Yeah, they covered Raiden, Iron Soldier, Tempest 2000 and AvP. So serious question, besides those, what are the "good" Jaguar games? Protector, Missile Command 3D? Anything that somebody would consider a system seller?

I wouldn't consider anything on the Jag a system seller today.  I thought Alien vs. Predator was phenomenal back in its time, but that's the closest the Jag has to a system seller.  AvP really hasn't aged well.  The framerate is really choppy, but it was incredibly immersive in 1994.

So ignoring that and Tempest 2000, Iron Soldier, and Raiden, I'd recommend the following:

Rayman.  It's graphically comparable to the Playstation and Saturn ports, but those versions added some features that made the game frustratingly difficult to play, like slippery surfaces.  I find the difficulty in the Jag version very well-balanced.  If anything, it's a bit on the easy side, as I usually have tons of lives saved up by the end of the game.  I want to like the Playstation version, but it's just frustratingly tough by the second area.  The later versions have a CD-quality soundtrack with largely ambient background music.  The Jag's soundtrack is midi, and it's much more melodic than the PS1/Saturn soundtrack.  I really prefer the Jag's soundtrack, but maybe I'm the only one.

Syndicate.  I don't usually get into the 3/4 overhead "god games," but I adore Syndicate.  It's not a technological marvel, but it's quite a bit more advanced than the SNES and Genesis versions.  It makes good use of the Jag's keypad.  Originally a PC game with keyboard controls, it presents a bit of a challenge in porting to a console, because the commands all need to be mapped to a controller.  I've never played the SNES/Genesis versions, but from what I've read, it sounds like some of the game's features had to be removed due to control restrictions.  The Jag version is quite fun, with a good deal of depth, although plenty of Jag fans don't care for it.

Doom.  There are a lot of better options for Doom in 2018, but the Jag version was impressive in its time.  The Jag port was programmed by John Carmack himself.  It runs faster than most of the ports of the 1990s and has a better lighting engine, and most of the early console ports were based on the Jag version's code.  Carmack wasn't able to get the soundtrack playing during the levels without compromising the Jag's performance, so the soundtrack plays between stages, which is a big drawback.  Some people say they prefer to play the game without music as it's more immersive, but without the option to turn it on or off, I can only consider it a loss.  The Jag port also has scaled-down levels, missing levels, and no Cyberdemon, Spectres, or Spider Mastermind, and also no blur artifact (invisibility) or night-vision goggles.  Still, it's a great game on the Jag, even if it's been surpassed in years since.

Wolfenstein 3D.  Jag Wolfenstein is one of the best ports and among the best games on the system, in my opinion.  It looks great compared to the PC and SNES versions.  It runs very smoothly, although the Game Sack guys thought it ran too fast if I recall correctly.  I never had any issues with it being too fast and have played through it several times.  The Jag version added two weapons, a flamethrower and a rocket launcher.  Jag Wolfenstein also has an in-game map.  I don't think the PC or SNES versions did, but I could be wrong about that.

Battle Sphere / Battle Sphere Gold.  This came out after the commercial life of the Jag, but it's a good example of the Jag's power.  It's a space combat game with a ton of depth and the ability to play against 15 other people with the system link.  Unfortunately, it's stupidly expensive ($1500-ish), as if it wasn't already impossible to find 15 other Jag owners nearby.

Super Burnout.  I haven't played this a ton, but it's a very well-done motorcycle racer, and both super fast and silky smooth.  Some fans list this as the best game on the Jag.  But if you're not into racing games, Super Burnout isn't going to change your mind.

Zool 2.  This game is solid, but not brilliant.  It's a mascot platformer that plays a little too fast for its own good, and for some awful reason jump has been mapped to both an action button and Up on the D-pad.  But I've gotten plenty of fun out of it.  The soundtrack is really catchy and the graphics are gorgeous for 1994.

Ultra Vortek.  Game Sack really ripped into Ultra Vortek, but it's a solid fighter.  It unashamedly rips off Mortal Kombat, but that doesn't make it a bad game.  Graphically it's pretty nice and it controls very well with a variety of moves and character types.  It doesn't offer anything too original, but it's still a good game.  I'm not huge into the 1 on 1 fighting game genre, so I can't comment on the depth of the gameplay.

NBA Jam TE.  The Jag version doesn't have anything you can't find in the SNES/Genesis versions other than slightly better graphics, but it's just as solid as the other home conversions.

Baldies (Jag CD).  This is an overhead "god-game" comparable to the early Warcraft games.  It's pretty addicting and unique.  You control a group of Bald dudes and have to fight against their enemies, the Hairy men.  Your army is divided into four categories of Baldies, each of which has a different purpose depending on whether they're inside a building or outside.  There's a good deal of depth, and it's got the sense of humor of something like Worms or Lemmings.  You can develop a minefield and place it right outside an enemy castle, and then develop a stink bomb and drop it on the castle, forcing its inhabitants outside and right into the minefield.  Or inflict your enemies' territory with a plague of land-sharks.  Lots of good fun.  There's also a PS1 port, but it uses some fugly early polygons in places.  The Jag version is 100% pixel art, which I prefer, but that's subjective of course.

Blue Lightning (Jag CD).  A lot of people hate the Jag version, but I really enjoy it.  It doesn't have the depth of something like the Lynx original, but it's a fun mindless blaster.  I'm probably in the minority here though, so approach with caution.

Primal Rage (Jag CD).  It's about the same as the other home ports.  Better graphics than the SNES/Genesis ports, but inferior graphics to the Playstation/Saturn ports.  Also, some fatalities have to load after you input the right command, which really interrupts the matches.

Vid Grid (Jag CD).  It's essentially a jigsaw puzzle where the picture you're assembling is a moving video rather than a still photo.  I had a lot of fun with this, and I don't know why people don't talk about it more.  It's not a system seller, and it's nothing brilliant, but it certainly is fun, and it's a unique take on the FMV genre.

[Pfloydguy2]

Right now, my curiosity has been piqued as to why there are "rabid fans" for a system that has always looked like almost complete garbage to me. Am I missing something? Are these rabid fans just mostly peeps who grew up with Atari and thus migrated to the Jaguar? Is it because its very easy to develop for and has a healthy homebrew scene (which has been my impression since the early 2000s).

I dunno about the rabid fans thing.  Every console has fanboys - does the Jag have more than most?  If it takes one to know one, maybe I'm in a good position to make that call. 

I think the issue is that the Jag has always been lambasted as a joke of a console.  It's the go-to system for a lot of people when looking for an example of a console failure.  And it IS a failed console, so that alone isn't a problem.  The problem is when you have people who have never played it who criticize it for flaws that don't exist.  There's a ton of embarrassingly-poor games on the Jag.  There are also some well-made games that are worth playing.  I don't think the Jaguar should be on the same level as the PC Engine.  The PC Engine's library is clearly superior in just about every way.  But that doesn't mean the Jag is garbage.

Also, the Jag fanbase does have a lot of people who grew up with the Jag or other Atari platforms.  But there's plenty who got into the Jag long after its demise and even just recently.  Unfortunately, the collector's market has made Jaguar collecting prohibitively expensive, so it's probably not worth looking into if you're not already interested.  From what I'm told, Jaguar emulation is spotty with 2D games and awful with 3D games, but I haven't tried it much myself.

[Bloufo]

Where would Atari Karts rate?

[Pfloydguy2]

A lot of people hate Atari Karts.  I only picked it up last year and haven't played more than an hour of it.  I actually liked it quite a bit.  It's very pretty and controls very well, but it doesn't have the depth or comedy of Mario Kart.  And I think it's only 2-player max, but I could be wrong about that.

[Winniez]

A lot of people hate Atari Karts.  I only picked it up last year and haven't played more than an hour of it.  I actually liked it quite a bit.  It's very pretty and controls very well, but it doesn't have the depth or comedy of Mario Kart.  And I think it's only 2-player max, but I could be wrong about that.

What are your thoughts on the Jaguar controller btw? I really don't like it, to me there is an element of cheapness and bad design in it. D-pad feels mushy, the buttons are so so and its bit awkward to hold. But I don't mind the numpad, in fact I quite like it. Its unique for its time and adds character. Quite useful too.

To Jags credit I must say that after trying the Wolf 3D port after a long time it really is quite excellent. In fact one of the best ways to play the game, even today. Its not like with Doom where the Jag port was great for its time but you have so many better versions to play today,

[TR0N]

[nopepper]

I wouldn't consider anything on the Jag a system seller today.  I thought Alien vs. Predator was phenomenal back in its time, but that's the closest the Jag has to a system seller.  AvP really hasn't aged well.  The framerate is really choppy, but it was incredibly immersive in 1994.

So ignoring that and Tempest 2000, Iron Soldier, and Raiden, I'd recommend the following:
...

Sorry for the super late response, but missed your reply until now. 

Frankly, there is hardly anything there to warrant excitement towards the Jaguar; the majority can be played in other systems and the few exclusives do not appear to be groundbreaking or essential (as you concede in your post).

Going back to Game Sack, I think their take on the Jaguar seemed pretty fair. They only missed a couple of your recommended games, so I'm not sure why you have such strong negative feelings towards them, but to each their own. I find their show entertaining, well paced and with high production values. I also really enjoy the music chosen for each section. I don't always agree with their opinion on games/systems, and they do make mistakes from time to time, but I don't expect everyone to share my opinion on everything or to be perfect (especially for a 2 man operation...), so it's all good for me.

I do appreciate you taking the time to make that list, as there were a couple of games there I had never heard of.

[TR0N]

[Pfloydguy2]

What are your thoughts on the Jaguar controller btw? I really don't like it, to me there is an element of cheapness and bad design in it. D-pad feels mushy, the buttons are so so and its bit awkward to hold. But I don't mind the numpad, in fact I quite like it. Its unique for its time and adds character. Quite useful too.

To Jags credit I must say that after trying the Wolf 3D port after a long time it really is quite excellent. In fact one of the best ways to play the game, even today. Its not like with Doom where the Jag port was great for its time but you have so many better versions to play today,

I like the controller overall.  It does feel a bit cheap, but part of that is how light-weight it is.  I like how it fits perfectly in my hands.  I have big hands, so some controllers like the NES's and PCE's are a little uncomfortable.  And I like the idea of the keypad, because it gives you a lot of control potential for PC ports like Syndicate, Baldies, and Theme Park, without an overly cumbersome control scheme.  It also allows you to go right to the weapon you want in games like Doom, where most console ports make you cycle through all the weapons to get to the one you want.  The keypad is in a good spot where you can access it on the fly without having to look down at your controller, and it doesn't get in the way of the fire buttons and D-pad.

On that note, I don't care much for the D-Pad.  Like the Genesis D-Pad, it's effective, but it doesn't feel as satisfying as something like the SNES or Dualshock.  The Pro Controller is a step up with shoulder buttons and three extra fire buttons, but it's stupidly expensive, so a lot of people have never tried it.  There is a project at AtariAge to make more Pro Controllers but obviously without the Atari logo.

[Pfloydguy2]

Going back to Game Sack, I think their take on the Jaguar seemed pretty fair. They only missed a couple of your recommended games, so I'm not sure why you have such strong negative feelings towards them, but to each their own. I find their show entertaining, well paced and with high production values. I also really enjoy the music chosen for each section. I don't always agree with their opinion on games/systems, and they do make mistakes from time to time, but I don't expect everyone to share my opinion on everything or to be perfect (especially for a 2 man operation...), so it's all good for me.

Game Sack is entertaining.  I have nothing wrong with somebody evaluating something and coming to a different conclusion than me.  My biggest issue with Game Sack's take on the Jag is that right from the start, they treated it like it was a joke.  It didn't seem like they were giving it a fair chance at all, based on their snickering, the goofy faces they make when they mention the Jaguar, and their sarcastic comments about the quality of the system.  It's clear their minds were made up before they even played the games.  It's a bit like the difference between constructive criticism and playground bullying - the problem isn't the criticism, but the way it's delivered.  I've watched probably 20-30 Game Sack episodes, and they don't usually treat their subject material that way unless they're making tongue-in-cheek stabs at each other about Sega vs. Nintendo.  Dave even acknowledges at the end that he knows he probably pissed off any Atari fans watching the video.

[nopepper]

On that note, I don't care much for the D-Pad.  Like the Genesis D-Pad, it's effective, but it doesn't feel as satisfying as something like the SNES or Dualshock.

Hey now, please tell me you are not talking about the 6 button Genesis dpad, because there is no way the Jaguar (or any other) controller can approximate the perfection that controller's pad achieved, especially compared to the the SNES's or Dual Shock's dpad. I guess that can be subjective, but man, that dpad just feels soooo good in comparison to everything else pretty much, ever (yeah, even the Saturn). The only one that comes close, oddly enough, is the Gameboy Micro.

Game Sack is entertaining.  I have nothing wrong with somebody evaluating something and coming to a different conclusion than me.  My biggest issue with Game Sack's take on the Jag is that right from the start, they treated it like it was a joke.  It didn't seem like they were giving it a fair chance at all, based on their snickering, the goofy faces they make when they mention the Jaguar, and their sarcastic comments about the quality of the system.  It's clear their minds were made up before they even played the games.  It's a bit like the difference between constructive criticism and playground bullying - the problem isn't the criticism, but the way it's delivered.  I've watched probably 20-30 Game Sack episodes, and they don't usually treat their subject material that way unless they're making tongue-in-cheek stabs at each other about Sega vs. Nintendo.  Dave even acknowledges at the end that he knows he probably pissed off any Atari fans watching the video.

Game Sack has taken the same snarky approach towards other beleaguered consoles/handhelds and have come away impressed after actually playing them (such as the Game Gear). So it might just be that the Jaguar is simply not that good in their eyes...and that they are aware that the Jaguar's fan base is emotionally attached in such a way to get defensive about their stance on it (something I was not until now).

[Pfloydguy2]

I was referring to the stock 3-button Genesis pad.  I've always thought that thing felt cumbersome.  The one I use is a 6-button, because it feels far better than the original.

[esteban]

I was referring to the stock 3-button Genesis pad.  I've always thought that thing felt cumbersome.  The one I use is a 6-button, because it feels far better than the original.

I don't like the d-pads on 3- or -6 button Genesis controllers.

They are sloppy and mushy and just don't have "precision" I need.

Then again, I am *not* a fan of the versus-fighting genre... so maybe the six-button pad worked really well with SFII its brethren?

At least the Genesis controllers were better than the SMS pads... I'll grant you that.

Ha!



It really is a subjective topic, though, obviously. I've talked to so many folks who *like* the various first-party Genesis controllers... despite their sloppy, crappy mush.

Oh well.

(That last comment was a gratuitous troll.)

[majors]

Let see that Dave and Joe have to say on controllers!

[nopepper]

I still prefer the 6 button genesis controller over the Saturn, because it feels less plasticy when you press the buttons. I dont find the pad mushy at all, and think it is extremely precise for any type of game.

In regards to the Game Sack controller episode, I learned that Joe has girl hands that Seinfeld would approve.

[esteban]

The "mushy" claims are silly. If you can't manage to go in a straight line with ANY of these pads it's you, not the pads.

All d-pads are "mushy" lol...   except for the Neo Geo pad.

First party Sega 3-button controllers... seriously, you like them? I know lots of folks don't mind them, but they have a lot to be desired.

I didn't like them at launch, I don't like them now (but, obviously, I've learned to live with them...doesn't mean I actually like them).

But, it's very subjective... so, we can still hug and be friends.

[TR0N]

[TR0N]

[TR0N]

[TR0N]

[NightWolve]

This ought to be good, thanks Game Sack!

Nevah forget the legendary Last Alert special by Gameological Society! No better video to complement this new episode!

[DragonmasterDan]

This ought to be good, thanks Game Sack!

Nevah forget the legendary Last Alert special by Gameological Society! No better video to complement this new episode!

it's no Castle shikigami 2

[NightWolve]

This ought to be good, thanks Game Sack!

Nevah forget the legendary Last Alert special by Gameological Society! No better video to complement this new episode!

it's no Castle shikigami 2

Haha, what happened there ? OMG, they had a literal Babelfish translator with no editing skills... And voice actors had little choice but to force themselves to read off cards with that crap on them!

I know how frustrating that is too, to be looking at literal translations and not have enough editing skills to make sense of them into naturalized English... I wasted way too many hours on Xak III in editing after I got the results back from Paul England, burned myself out a bit in addition to the Ys projects, but at least for Ys scripts the NeoGeo/XSEED Cockflasher had much better editing skills compared to all other translators I had worked with (Shimarisu, Paul, Akimaru, etc.) so there was little to fix beyond spelling, occasional grammar, understandable context failures, consistency in naming conventions, etc.

Anyway, never heard of this game, but wow, that IS terrible! The voice actors sound competent with experience, but they're forced to read the Babelfish translations that were put in front of them in a OK-if-that's-really-what-you-want-me-to-say fashion, heh heh.

[DragonmasterDan]

This ought to be good, thanks Game Sack!

Nevah forget the legendary Last Alert special by Gameological Society! No better video to complement this new episode!

it's no Castle shikigami 2

Haha, what happened there ? OMG, they had a literal Babelfish translator with no editing skills... And voice actors had little choice but to force themselves to read off cards with that crap on them!

This is the only explanation

[DragonmasterDan]

I mean it's just amazing

[TR0N]

It's some thing space cobra adventures for the sega-cd wasn't mention 

[NightWolve]

I mean it's just amazing

That's whacked out! You see right away one of them did take liberties on this, yet STILL botched it!

Question 1: "[You] Going there alone?"

Counter-question 2: "How about you?"

Text Answer: "Not your business. Just like my pal."

vs.

Voice Answer: "It's not your thing, just like my friend."

Side note: Sounds rude to me, she can ask if you're going there [to some place], but when you ask her right back, will she also be going to the same place (presumably), she pulls the selective "None of your business" card! WTH ?!?! Hahaha!!

[NightWolve]

[majors]

Another quality sack vid. You just know with the ending teaser, they were making another "bad movie games" episode and ran across some good movies games so decided to create this one.

[NightWolve]

GameSack decided to cover every PC Engine CD game that supports/relies on the Arcade Card enhancement memory, including games where it's uncertain/unadvertised like Emerald Dragon which doesn't indicate in any way there are benefits.

I always wanted one for my Turbo Duo given the used/cheap Strider ACD that I bought for $15 but I never got around to it. Plus, I'd have to also buy a region adapter to make it work on a US Duo! So it wouldn't be until the Magic Engine emulator when I finally got to play that ACD port to see just how awful it was!

I was also interested in Fatal Fury Special (not to mention SFII for my 6-button pad), Sapphire, a SuperGrafx itself, but gaming habits were dying off as I started my university studies, so didn't happen. But yeah, eventually when I discovered the world of emulation in late 2001-02, I got to download/play some of the missed opportunities from back when real hardware was the only game in town!

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