The Dangers of using 3.3V Flash Carts in Retro Consoles

[Gypsy]

I have a couple scopes but no everdrive or I'd test. Seems like it will end up not being a big deal though.

[sirhcman]

So when does the class action lawsuit start?

[SamIAm]

Multiple minutes of a real cart (different from last time) and an Everdrive playing the same game. Difference is still right around 25-30mA.

When Krikzz says "this difference mostly due the normal power consumption of own cartridge components" I'm inclined to believe him.


Also, from Rene's article's comments:

1) cartridge bus activity is not really related or proportional to what is happening on screen. CPU is what is driving the address lines and reading data from Flashcart and it still runs the same if this is a static or animated screen, i.e read new instructions/data from ROM area every 4 cycles at most. Actually, the least complex instruction loop (NOP) is what would stress the cartridge bus the most, not the opposite.

2) current consumption is more directly impacted by the number of pins set high on average than number of cartridge access. To test maximal current consumption you would have a test ROM that continuously read FFFFh from address 3FFFFFh (which is max ROM address) but that wouldn't be a realistic test case either since that's definitively not what normal games are doing.

[SignOfZeta]

Does anyone have Pier Solar and an infrared pyrometer as mentioned in the podcast? I'm interested in that test since anything that makes the outer case of the cart measurably warmer is probably pulling more than 25mA.

What Kriz says about Everdrives is important but there are loads more devices with mismatched parts that are aparentky even shittier and less thoughtfully designed. Those ubiquitous yellow multicarts for MVS for example, there seems to be more anecdotal evidence claiming they kill boards. 

EDIT:  btw, 25-30mA doesn't seem like a lot, but if it's all coming from just the flash, CPU and RAM it might be. Knowing what a normal consumption of just the bus would help. He's measuring consumption of the entire system, of which heat dispation from CPU/RAM is but a tiny portion. For all I know consumption by sensitive componants has tripled. Has this been discussed to death anywhere yet?

[Gredler]

Those ubiquitous yellow multicarts for MVS for example, there seems to be more anecdotal evidence claiming they kill boards. 

For me this is the main take-away from this thread. Avoid those cheaply made multicarts and pirate carts, I suppose?

[SamIAm]

A couple more posts from Krikzz:

Flashing an SMS game. Flashing itself causes about a 10mA increase in consumption.

Hucard vs Everdrive 1.0 playing Dungeon Explorer. Everdrive again needs an extra 25-30mA.

EDIT:  btw, 25-30mA doesn't seem like a lot, but if it's all coming from just the flash, CPU and RAM it might be. Knowing what a normal consumption of just the bus would help. He's measuring consumption of the entire system, of which heat dispation from CPU/RAM is but a tiny portion. For all I know consumption by sensitive componants has tripled. Has this been discussed to death anywhere yet?

While it remains to be tested, this extra current is probably just being drawn from the 5V power rail. It really wouldn't be surprising for those flash chips and SD card interfaces to need more power to operate than the mask-ROM in real carts. Not to mention, they're behind a linear 3.3V regulator, which should be dissipating some of that current as heat.

I can't find the link at the moment, but Rene himself did a measurement of Virtua Racing on the Genesis and found it pulling around 100mA more than normal carts, so some extra draw from the power rail is probably within tolerances. It could easily be that the Arcade Card Pro draws more than an Everdrive 1.0.

Those ubiquitous yellow multicarts for MVS for example, there seems to be more anecdotal evidence claiming they kill boards. 

For me this is the main take-away from this thread. Avoid those cheaply made multicarts and pirate carts, I suppose?

Yeah, I don't intend to use my 120-in-1 again until tests are done, at least.

[CrackTiger]

What about the many new types of HuCards?

Old AbCard
French HuCard
turbokon & co's HuCards
dbelectronics HuCards


Has anyone killed a <16-bit console by running it too long while overclocked?

[Gredler]

[esteban]

This is no joke, Gredler.

Shame on you.

[SignOfZeta]

If the extra consumption does come from powering the flash then...then that's pretty much the answer we're looking for. It's also really easy to test compared to trying to measure the data lines.

Some extra current consumption is normal for weird carts. Virtual Racing had a DSP, it needs some power obviously. The XBand had an entire analog modem in it and a magnetic card reader as well as its own CPU, RAM, and ROM and ON TOP of that any cart you were using, such as Super Mario Kart which also has its own DSP. The SuFami Turbo hold two carts at once. You have to go all the way up to 32X before they thought they'd see power supply issues.

These are all extra draws from the power side. If that's where this extra 30mA is coming from, no problem. It's still out of spec for reasons of laziness or ignorance or cost, but it isn't doing anything measurably bad in that case. Usually flash is way more power efficient than 25 year old ROMs but it's obviously a lot more flash so...here I don't know much.

[SamIAm]

It looks like all of this started when Rene was measuring the power consumption of Genesis carts and found that while real games were drawing 10-20mA, his Mega Everdrive was drawing more like 130mA.

https://db-electronics.ca/wiki/wikis/consoles/sega-genesis/#Game_Cart_Current_Consumption

Without investigating the specific parts on his Mega Everdrive, checking any other Everdrives or contacting Krikzz, he seemingly assumed that this was a typical amount for all Everdrives and wrote his article.

It just so happens that before even learning that Rene was using a Mega Everdrive, Krikzz posted those youtube links on his forum showing the much smaller 25-30mA increase and commented "As for mega ed v1: testing of this cart will not give clear results, because it use SDRAM and FPGA which has pretty high power consumption."

Later, he wrote in Rene's comment section:

So, what exactly your measurements shows, except like normal power consumption of cartridge components?
MAX-3000 at 50Mhz
Cyclone II at 133Mhz
MT48 SDRAM with forced overabundant refresh cycles.
Look at datasheet and you will see that it is pretty much normal power consumption for such hardware configuration

So the 130mA current is normal for this particular cart, and it's being drawn from the power rail, not through the bus.

Another person on the article page gave a good (possible) explanation for why the diode clamps probably aren't drawing any significant current - the same kind of clamping is done during bus conflicts, and so parts that use the bus are built not to bleed current this way.

I'm still going to wait until someone at least takes a multimeter measurement, but if what that guy says is true, the Neo Geo mutlicarts are likely OK. I actually wonder if those cheap Chinese chips even have diode clamps in them, to be honest.

[ClodBusted]

Krikzz doesn't show how he does his measurements. All you can see is a console, a TV and a DMM. You don't see where exactly on the board he attaches his DMM for current measurement. He also doesn't show any voltage measurements.

I smell bullshit.

If the extra consumption does come from powering the flash then...then that's pretty much the answer we're looking for. It's also really easy to test compared to trying to measure the data lines.

I expect  also power spikes in the initialization process of the flash cart, due to Krikzz design with the series resistors being out of specification. There's no way to show them with a DMM like shown in Krikzz current measurement videos. You need a DSO to detect these. That's why Krikzz' videos are debatable.

[SamIAm]

You really think he's trying to deceive us? At a time when his products have come under scrutiny and are likely to be tested by others, and his credibility destroyed if his lie were found out? When he could apologize now for any problem and likely be forgiven by most?

I think you've jumped to a conclusion about Krikzz despite there being no evidence that his products cause damage.

Even crappy multimeters these days are 99% accurate, and that's more than enough to see whether we're drawing 300mA or 500mA. I'm still curious whether any of the extra 25-30mA is being drawn through the bus, but we've heard a good reason why it wouldn't happen, we've seen that the temperature of the Everdrive is not rising during operation, and we've been given a completely believable (if not yet proven) explanation by Krikzz about why the difference in current is there.

I don't smell bullshit. I think that Rene neglected to do proper testing before making such a big claim. If he wasn't going to test, or at least point to similar cases, he should have framed the diode-clamp-effect as a possibility and not as a fact.

[ClodBusted]

Why are you so eager defending Krikzz? Are you related to him, does he pay you to support him on forums and blogs, or are you just one of his biggest fans?

[SamIAm]

I see no evidence that he has done anything wrong.

[Johnpv]

AC Analysis of clamping diode effect in 5V to 3.3V mismatch -.db Electronics

[crazydean]

I see no evidence that he has done anything wrong.

I agree. I think Rene jumped the gun on his article. If you're going to call someone out on their products, you should do your research. He should have gathered more evidence. His article is written as a blog post about some musing, not a scientific article.

[CrackTiger]

Why are you so eager defending Krikzz? Are you related to him, does he pay you to support him on forums and blogs, or are you just one of his biggest fans?

It sounds like no one has proven anything either way and there's a lot of half-assing and theories being tossed around. No one should be getting worked up one way or the other until we actually know everything, yet you are very excited, unlike Sam.

Also take into consideration than dbelectronics is trying to get a foothold in a business in which he's now making accusations against his competitors, based on theories which are based on spec sheets.

We're still waiting for the epidemic of destroyed consoles that should exist from years of popularity of such dangerous devices. Kerp in mind that cheap Chinese knockoffs of Everdrives are very popular as well. So forums should be flooded with stories of dead consoles.

[NecroPhile]

Why are you so eager defending Krikzz? Are you related to him, does he pay you to support him on forums and blogs, or are you just one of his biggest fans?

Why are you so eager to label him a lying scam artist?  Are you related to rene, does he pay you to bitch, or are you just an asshole? 

Half of your complaints about krikzz are factually incorrect:

"why isn't he redesigning his carts?!?"  -  newer carts (like the TED 2.x) are improved.

"he's denying simple facts!!!"  -  he actually agrees that it's a problem, one that's been addressed in redesigns and will be handled in future products.

"he's a liar / full of shit / a hypocrite [for sharing anecdotal evidence and maybe less than scientific test results] !!!"  -  what's wrong with pointing out the obvious?  If rene's dire consequences were fact, why haven't all of krikzz's systems been killed?  Why hasn't he had hundreds of returns for voltage and heat related repairs?  Why haven't forums been plagued with flashcart users complaining of dead systems? 

Seriously, it's not like these things just came out yesterday.  Nobody's arguing that they're properly designed and perfectly fine as is, but if they really are as dangerous as rene's spec sheet math says they are, we should have plenty of examples of failures by now.

[ClodBusted]

Your point is well taken.

[esteban]

Bernie just emailed me on Facelink—sadly, his THIRD DUO just melted while he was using ver. 1 TED!

Also, he was using a hair dryer...

[CrackTiger]

I guess it needs to be pointed out again what Sam said about Krikzz's videos that were posted in this thread: they were put on youtube months ago or longer. They aren't in reaction to that recent article, so of course he wasn't being deceptive in how he framed his shots.

[SamIAm]

I guess it needs to be pointed out again what Sam said about Krikzz's videos that were posted in this thread: they were put on youtube months ago or longer. They aren't in reaction to that recent article, so of course he wasn't being deceptive in how he framed his shots.

It looks to me that the dates on those videos are from this week?

Anyway, Rene posted a video where he took oscilloscope readings of the voltage levels before and after a resistor on one data bus line on a Mega Everdrive. The readings were taken simultaneously during a single logic high. The result seems to indicate that the diode clamps are activating, so the effect is real. Rene's revised estimate is 6mA per pin per logic high.

What he has not done yet is take actual measurements of total current going through the bus. These would be the figures at the heart of whether Everdrives really are dangerous to old hardware. We'll see some results sooner or later from someone, I suppose.

[CrackTiger]

My youtube app doesn't show the dates while watching the video, but clicking on the uploader's name and viewing all uploads shows his newest video as being 6 months old.

[sirhcman]

My youtube app doesn't show the dates while watching the video, but clicking on the uploader's name and viewing all uploads shows his newest video as being 6 months old.

He has the videos marked as unlisted so they won't show up in his video feed. The videos were uploaded/published July 11th 2017

[xcrement5x]

Saw this elsewhere and had to repost:

[ClodBusted]

With the SFII re-release on the SNES, the discussion regarding improper designed repro and flash cartridges is continuing:
http://www.vintagecomputing.com/index.php/archives/1748/new-limited-edition-street-fighter-ii-cartridge-could-literally-burst-into-flames-or-just-ruin-your-snes

[turboswimbz]

With the SFII re-release on the SNES, the discussion regarding improper designed repro and flash cartridges is continuing:
http://www.vintagecomputing.com/index.php/archives/1748/new-limited-edition-street-fighter-ii-cartridge-could-literally-burst-into-flames-or-just-ruin-your-snes

I'm guessing that a large reason that warning was there and prominent had a lot to do with the Legal department at Capcom.  I think the actual possibility of fires OR damage from these things is low. However, as the wonderful Turbo Loving expert in that article points out translation could and often is a huge problem. 

[crazydean]

I'm interested to see a tear down of the carts. I hope it's just old SFII with a new shell.

[Winniez]

I have never seen the big appeal of these Everdrives and similar devices, if you are not going to buy the original game the emulation for these systems from the 8- and 16bit era is so good these days. And there are adapters that lets you use the original controllers.
And a flash cart sort of defeats the purpose on playing real games on a real hardware anyway. if you have the whole library at your fingertip its hard to get excited about any particular game.

[CrackTiger]

I don't understand when people try to dismiss flashcarts in favor of "real games" yet promote emulation. The argument that paying for real games and hardware is a waste when you can play everything for free makes much more sense.

To me, "crappy game I don't want to play" on an original cart will never be more real than the actual great games I care about. If the packaging is the main draw, then the games are not.

And if someone puts your favorite game on using real hardware, but the console is hidden from your view and you honestly can't tell while playing whether it's an original cart or a flashcart, that's because there literally is no difference.

If not having confirmation of an authentic ruins the experience for you, even if you really were playing a real cart the whole time, then your true interests are far removed from gaming.

[Winniez]

I would say the same goes for emulation, not being able to detect when playing on a proper setup. Besides I don't think its a fair comparision between a free solution and a $100 solution.

[crazydean]

I would say the same goes for emulation, not being able to detect when playing on a proper setup. Besides I don't think its a fair comparision between a free solution and a $100 solution.

A hundred dollars is nothing on the turbo. That same $100 will hardly get you anything with today's prices. Playing on real hardware with a genuine NEC controller is where it's at for me. I don't need a bunch of games cluttering up my house like some jackass on youtube. I'm about playing games on real hardware, not collecting plastic cards or boxes.

Emulation still has problems like lag, wrong colors, glitches, poor sound, etc. A raspberry pi might be the final solution one day, but right now, it still has problems. The Wii does a good job because you can at least output 240p to a CRT over YUV, but I want to turn the damn thing on and just play with the original controller which the Wii won't let me do. The Wii makes you use that stupid Wiimote and go through several menus to get to the games. And, at the end of the day, it's still not perfect.

Bottom line: Whether you use an everdrive or the original card, the game plays exactly the same. The same cannot be said for emulation.

[Winniez]

You can use a Gamecube controller with a modded Wii for emulation and as you said hook it up to a CRT with RGB.
Ofcourse I would rather have the real system with Everdrive than that but it costs money. And when carefully spent $100 buys you a lot of japanese Hucards. Atleast for me part of the experience is having the actual game in a case and pulling it from the shelf to play. I'm not entirily sure about the state of PC-Engine emulation but Mednafen feels very accurate to me. For SNES Higan is pretty much perfect. With a PC there is the lag chain though.

[crazydean]

Do you want to play turbo games with a turbo controller or a GameCube controller? There is definitely something missing from that gaming experience.

Really, it's all about how you define the "gaming experience." For me, real hardware is important but original software is not. Some people think that CIB is worth significantly more than CIC because that's what they enjoy.

I don't understand why everyone in the gaming community has to hate anyone who does it differently than themselves.

[Winniez]

I don't understand why everyone in the gaming community has to hate anyone who does it differently than themselves.

I don't think I said anything like that, atleast I didn't mean to. Each to their own. Getting enjoying out of these games should be the ultimate goal whatever the aproach.

[SignOfZeta]

I don't understand why everyone in the gaming community has to hate anyone who does it differently than themselves.

Well then you must be fucking retarded because the answer to that question is obvious.

[NecroPhile]

I have never seen the big appeal of these Everdrives and similar devices, if you are not going to buy the original game the emulation for these systems from the 8- and 16bit era is so good these days. And there are adapters that lets you use the original controllers.

It's not an either/or type of thing.  You can buy lots of real games and an everdrive to play ridiculously priced hueys, homebrew games, and translation patched titles.

And a flash cart sort of defeats the purpose on playing real games on a real hardware anyway. if you have the whole library at your fingertip its hard to get excited about any particular game.

That sounds silly.  I have hundreds of real games at my fingertips, but I can still get excited.

Maybe you're getting old and need a little blue pill? 

[crazydean]

I don't understand why everyone in the gaming community has to hate anyone who does it differently than themselves.

Well then you must be fucking retarded because the answer to that question is obvious.

Damn, guess the cat's outta the bag!

[SignOfZeta]

Everyone, everyone! RETARD everyone! Right here!

[turboswimbz]

Everyone, everyone!

I've upgraded this to version 2.01

youtu .be/RLO3SrOryug

[ClodBusted]

The article has been updated with more hard facts:
https://db-electronics.ca/2017/07/05/the-dangers-of-3-3v-flash-in-retro-consoles/


Also, this:

[sirhcman]

So basically we shouldn't be using everdrives in our consoles. Where do I sign up for the class action lawsuit against krikzz?

[CrackTiger]

The article has been updated with more hard facts:
https://db-electronics.ca/2017/07/05/the-dangers-of-3-3v-flash-in-retro-consoles/


Also, this:

Instead of more hard facts, it now says that everyone else was right about flashcarts not destroying your hardware, so go ahead and continue using them.

[Gredler]

The article has been updated with more hard facts:
db-electronics.ca/2017/07/05/the-dangers-of-3-3v-flash-in-retro-consoles/

Also, this:

Instead of more hard facts, it now says that everyone else was right about flashcarts not destroying your hardware, so go ahead and continue using them.

This video is terrible.

[ClodBusted]

Either you didn't get it or you haven't watched it at all. It parodies pretty much every lie and trolling of mindless pissed off Krikkz' fans out there.

Also, funny how people who know basically nothing about electronics are trying to argue with electronics engineers. I've got four years of training in electronics by myself, including time spent in an electronics repair shop for TV, radio, HiFi stuff as well as maintaining broadcast systems in hospitals and hotels.

[esteban]

Let's be clear that this article is NOT fear mongering, nor should the article be twisted in that way. In the article's introduction I clearly state that I am an Everdrive user myself. There is no hidden agenda, my only intent was to inform people of a design flaw. Also, the explosion picture above is meant to represent how you should dispose of your NES and Neogeo Multicarts (not Flashcarts), after all, these are the only which I recommend to not use and to "burn".

TL;DR

Stop using your Aliexpress multicarts, keep using your Everdrives – but know the design flaw.

This seems reasonable.



Maybe I'll load some ROMZ on an SD card and use my TED tomorrow?

Finally?

[Bloufo]

Late to the party here. I didn't even know this was a thing.

In my case I've had that AliExpress Neo 160 something in 1 multicart for the longest time. To keep my shit intact, I need to toss it?  wut.
I'll live in a state of fear knowing the danger, but I'll risk it.

[CrackTiger]

Either you didn't get it or you haven't watched it at all. It parodies pretty much every lie and trolling of mindless pissed off Krikkz' fans out there.

Also, funny how people who know basically nothing about electronics are trying to argue with electronics engineers. I've got four years of training in electronics by myself, including time spent in an electronics repair shop for TV, radio, HiFi stuff as well as maintaining broadcast systems in hospitals and hotels.

At least you aren't mixing your educated reasoning with trolling and desperate cyber fame seeking.

dbe is in competition with krikkz, the specific product they're trying to pretend isn't relevent is something krikkz sold before dbe. Accusing your competitor of being incompetent or intentionally deceptive while lying about conflict of interest makes him guilty of what he's accusing someone else of.

Instead of simply educating people to be aware of a potential issue which history had already proven to be extremely unlikely, he went over the top to try to garner fame while taking down someone who's success he seems to be very jealous of.

He seems to only be pivoting now because of the backlash from users who have logged millions of hours on these ticking time bombs without the fear mongered results, combined with the lack of increased sales in his own products.

It's all fine and well for government scientist Dr. Yamuka to declare that science has proven that women's brain is size of squirrel's. Even if the science shows that it is theoretically likely to be true, we have billions of women in the real world who prove otherwise. That is real science that educated people value no less than theory.

[SignOfZeta]

Well that just doesn't make sense. Brain size is a nature/science thing. You can't know it without an autopsy and a measuring tape. This is about specified ratings of human made products. You don't need to deduce or uncover anything, just read the specs, this shit is wrong. God doesn't give out specs, science is therefore needed.

However, pretty much everyone who's ever built a modern flash cart just looked at that and went, "Well, the parts I need don't exist, I can't make them the right way, I'll build it out of this."

Then tons of people bought them and if there were any issues nobody noticed so it didn't matter. Newer designs show improvement.

"Use sparingly" seems like good advice. I don't know where all this drama bullshit comes from (it ALWAYS shows up from somewhere). It seems like The Comunity is required to pick a side and stick with it for life on every issue but there just isn't one here unless you go looking for it. This is a learning opportunity for the whole scene.

It's also weird how people seem to think they're a genuine Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective because they noticed money is somehow involved, then it's use as irrefutable evidence to prove that someone sucks...leaving aside that every console and pro console game dev house was far more profit seeking (and shifty)  than any dude making stuff like this.

Late to the party here. I didn't even know this was a thing.

In my case I've had that AliExpress Neo 160 something in 1 multicart for the longest time. To keep my shit intact, I need to toss it?  wut.
I'll live in a state of fear knowing the danger, but I'll risk it.

Can you please live in a state of fear that doesn't destroy perfectly good main boards with garbage just because you're too cheap or poor to buy real games? There will always been a supply of junk to plug into a Neo but the boards are OOP.