Selling Back-ups, your thoughts...

LMS · 04/10/2006, 04:53 PM

Easy guys,
I'm pretty new around here so be nice

I was wondering what people think about PCE and PCFX CDrs?

Personally I'm down with the idea; it's a good way of testing out games before shelling out for real copies. I only buy complete games (nice condition with box, etc) as to me collecting is as much about the artwork and package as a whole. I get as much satisfaction from the site of all my stuff as I do from playing with it. On many occasions I've introduced friends to games via CDrs that they wouldn't have otherwise seen and that's a nice thing to do, right?

I'm also of the opinion that as long as you don't pretend it's anything but a copy and charge no more than for the disc, postage and your time burning it then you're not ripping people off.
As far as cheating the company that made it out of cash, this makes copying current games a definite ethical no no but with PCE & PCFX stuff it's all out of print and I'm pretty sure no suppliers still have any new stock on consignment from original distributors.

Don't get me wrong, I don't do this on a regular basis (only when friends request really) but I'm interested in what other people think.

What you saying people?

motdelbuort · 04/10/2006, 05:39 PM

I have no problem with giving the stuff away, but I mostly disagree with what you're proposing. I'm not sure why you're asking this, but here are a couple thoughts.

1. Since PCE games are going to be available on the Revolution soon, this would disqualify your exception regarding which games its okay to sell copies of and which ones would not. Not to mention that Turbo Zone Direct does still sell consignment from original distributors.

That's the commercial front. As a fan:

1. Charging even one cent for something is very different than giving it away for free. Imagine if you had to pay for all those roms and mp3s on your computer. It's an insult to fans to take advantage of them in this way, just like the Magic Engine is an insult when better emulators for other systems are free. But at least the Magic Engine is a nice little piece of software that the guy created himself, however disappointing it is that he chooses to charge for it. A cdr seller does little more than hit record on a cd burner and collect money.

2. How much is your time worth? Other people are giving away their time as fans to share their enjoyment of the Turbo by making websites, even share roms and isos. What makes your time so special?

The grey area for me is not some hack charging $5 a pop or more for cdrs (no offense to you personally), but the Sapphire reprint. I don't have the reprint but it's clearly a nice product, the likes of which appeals only to strong fans. Whoever made it put some work into it and delivered a nice product on par with a commercial release. Couple that with the prohibitive cost of the original and the bootleg in this specific case starts to sound like a good deal.

LeeT · 04/10/2006, 07:06 PM

I have no problem with people SHARING copies of PCE games but to sell copies is wrong.

pixeljunkie · 04/10/2006, 07:08 PM

Quote from: "LeeT"I have no problem with people SHARING copies of PCE games but to sell copies is wrong.

ditto

selling is shitty

rolins · 04/10/2006, 07:39 PM

Quote from: "LeeT"I have no problem with people SHARING copies of PCE games but to sell copies is wrong.

Agreed.

Selling backups is a no-no. I have no problem with sharing them for free or trading them for other CDR backups.

I do want to get something in return because nothing is for free. Some of my friends request copies of my games all the time, and I don't mind handing out backups just as long as they buy me lunch.

LMS · 04/10/2006, 07:40 PM

some very fair coments guys.

In regards to why I'm asking this; I've been selling off a lot of stuff recently (real games, not copies) and while sorting out deals with poeple I've got into a few discussions about this and been doing some CDrs for people as a kind of bonus service when they buy a few real bits.

I just recently agreed a sale for Team innocent (PCFX) with someone on this forum and offered them Zenki, Chip chan kick & Super God Trooper Back-ups as those games are worth pretty stupid sums of money for what they are but to any excited new PCFX owner is seems a shame not to be able to check them out. I have a real copy of chip chan kick for sale and I know what it's worth but i can completely understand the buyer not being into spending that kind of money as you do have to be kind of obssesive to pay what it's arguably worth. I'm charging £3 per disc to cover the cd, postage and my time because to be frank, I work freelance and it genuinely is time I would otherwise spend working.

I'm not trying to champion my opinion here, and being new here I'm certainly not trying to alienate myself already (I hope this isn't having that effect), I'm just curious as to what other people think. The point made by motdelbuort about the revolution service is totally valid and exactly the sort of thing that could make me reconsider.

keep it coming, what do the rest of you think?

out of interest, if you think it's wrong to be charging money for sharing these (fair point) even if it's only to cover logistical costs, how about if someone was to host a load of ISOs for public (free) download?

GUTS · 04/11/2006, 01:44 AM

I have no problem with it, if people want to pay then charge them whatever you can, who cares. Honestly even when they're available on the Rev, who's gonna give a shit? The type of people who would pay Nintendo to download TG games are still gonna download them, one guy or hell 1000 guys selling Duo CDRs aren't going to make a difference in their profits.

Keranu · 04/11/2006, 04:33 AM

I agree with GUTS, but I don't really care who sells what and for how much.

JoshTurboTrollX · 04/11/2006, 12:41 PM

I have traded ISO's on CDR and gave them away for free. I've also gotten some for free with REAL copies of the game that I purchased... VERY COOL IDEA.

Playing CD-R's instead of beating up your REAL copies is a good idea IMO.

But from what I've heard the Turbo Duo really takes a beating when playing ISO's on CD. That could be a big reason why SO many Duo's are putzing out lately... Mine included....TWICE!!

Never had any trouble until I started playing ISO's.....hmmm.

I simply use my ISO's on Emulators, and thats it. I'll never play them on my Turbo again!

NEVAR!!

TurboSage

td741 · 04/11/2006, 01:04 PM

I've never played any CDRs and I've had 3 duo's CD drives die on me...

Personally, I'd only chance a CDR via emulation.

motdelbuort · 04/11/2006, 03:10 PM

Quote from: "td741"I've never played any CDRs and I've had 3 duo's CD drives die on me...

Personally, I'd only chance a CDR via emulation.

The commercial version of Meteor Blaster is a CDR, and every time I try to play it I have to take a screwdriver and unjam the lens mechanism inside the Duo. It jams up on the load screen and no discs will spin. I contacted MindRec about it and apparently there is nowhere left that can press a real TurboGrafx CD. Which makes me wonder even more how/when the Sapphire reprint was pressed.

radiantgun · 04/11/2006, 03:52 PM

Woot LMS is in the UK I'll take a hundred Bootleg CDRs !

hehe

I say do what you want to do mate if people want to buy them let them to those that wouldn't touch a CDR dont buy one ! Choice - it's an amazing word !

Me personally,I have a few but I do own the originals - Kaze Kiri Drac X comes to mind, I would buy CDRs before I would contemplate spending £100 + of my hard earned money on the *rare* titles.

Emulation is fine but it still doesnt feel *right* to holding an engine pad and flicking the switch and hearing it stir into life ! Stick a CDR in and youve got the engine *feel*.

Superfamifreak · 04/11/2006, 03:58 PM

Personally I'd never get a CD-R again as the last time I used one, it fucked up my Duo.

If people want to take that risk then fair enough.

motdelbuort · 04/11/2006, 05:22 PM

Quote from: "radiantgun"Woot LMS is in the UK I'll take a hundred Bootleg CDRs ! hehe

I say do what you want to do mate if people want to buy them let them to those that wouldn't touch a CDR dont buy one ! Choice - it's an amazing word !

Me personally,I have a few but I do own the originals - Kaze Kiri Drac X comes to mind, I would buy CDRs before I would contemplate spending £100 + of my hard earned money on the *rare* titles.

Emulation is fine but it still doesnt feel *right* to holding an engine pad and flicking the switch and hearing it stir into life ! Stick a CDR in and youve got the engine *feel*.

Except your "choice" to buy or sell cdrs makes it harder for me to get isos /emulators/what have you for free; people get a whiff of money in the air and it ruins the fun for fans who want to be able to try a game (possibly before buying it) without buying a cdr.

In other words it's a choice you have, but one of the options makes buyers/sellers assholes in all but the most expensive cases, like the ones you mentioned.

In any case, emule has lots of pce isos for free, and i'll be happy to put mine in my shared folder for you if you want to take a crack at them. No need to buy them from LMS or anyone else.

NightWolve · 04/11/2006, 07:07 PM

Quote from: "motdelbuort"
Quote from: "td741"I've never played any CDRs and I've had 3 duo's CD drives die on me...

Personally, I'd only chance a CDR via emulation.

The commercial version of Meteor Blaster is a CDR, and every time I try to play it I have to take a screwdriver and unjam the lens mechanism inside the Duo. It jams up on the load screen and no discs will spin. I contacted MindRec about it and apparently there is nowhere left that can press a real TurboGrafx CD. Which makes me wonder even more how/when the Sapphire reprint was pressed.

I wonder if that has to do with the non-standard track arrangment he did with those two games. I think it was a mistake personally. Basically, he added a 3 second pregap to the first data track. Now, you're only supposed to do that if a data track comes after an audio track, that is, a transition from an audio track, to a data track. This makes the first track start on LBA 225 and what's interesting is that it's serving as a cheap copy protection when it comes to CDRWIN at least. Every other PC-Engine/TG-16 disc starts at LBA 0 with track 1, but those two Meteor games, start at LBA 225. If you try to rip any of those two games with CDRWIN, the CUE will be offset by that 225, completely screwing up the start and end of every audio track thereafter, so the game won't work properly if you reburn that BIN/CUE. Probably other ripping/burning software can handle it fine, though.

OldRover · 04/11/2006, 07:21 PM

The Sapphire copy was made in 2001, a couple of years before Eclipse changed their software to support a smaller, more rigid set of standards.

PC Gaijin · 04/11/2006, 07:27 PM

I am against it. Selling and profiting off of CDRs is wrong. I also think giving away CDRs with games you sell is wrong. It's a way of providing an incentive for someone to purchase your game, so in a way you're profiting off bootlegs again.

Speaking of bootlegs...I was always amused by the term "backup". A backup is a copy you make of legitimately purchased media for your own use. Anything else whether sold or given away is pirated/bootlegged/warezed. Just threw that out there LMS because in your original post you mentioned not pretending it's anything but a copy, but calling it a "backup" is pretending a little.

VestCunt · 04/11/2006, 08:04 PM

Quote from: "motdelbuort"Except your "choice" to buy or sell cdrs makes it harder for me to get isos /emulators/what have you for free; people get a whiff of money in the air and it ruins the fun for fans who want to be able to try a game (possibly before buying it) without buying a cdr.

Thank you for making this point. I agree wholeheartedly.
I think of CDr's the same way i use music cassette tapes or CDr's. I listen to them, i trade them, i copy old LPs for friends...etc.
However, if i saw people selling music CDr's or cassettes on Ebay (or any other website) i'd be seriously pissed off. If you know where to look you can find just about any song or video game online for free. CDr's are cheap and i don't think its right for people to be making money on something they got for free.

This is the kind of BS really gets my goat:

http://cgi.ebay.com/12-PC-ENGINE-GAMES-DRACULA-X_W0QQitemZ8276218312QQcategoryZ72501QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

ebay apparently doesn't enforce anything anymore

esteban · 04/11/2006, 08:25 PM

Quote from: "PC Gaijin"I am against it. Selling and profiting off of CDRs is wrong. I also think giving away CDRs with games you sell is wrong. It's a way of providing an incentive for someone to purchase your game, so in a way you're profiting off bootlegs again.

Speaking of bootlegs...I was always amused by the term "backup". A backup is a copy you make of legitimately purchased media for your own use. Anything else whether sold or given away is pirated/bootlegged/warezed. Just threw that out there LMS because in your original post you mentioned not pretending it's anything but a copy, but calling it a "backup" is pretending a little.

I'm with PC Gaijin and the other folks who took a stand against profiting on CDRs. Don't worry, I'm not trying to criticize any specific people on these forums, I'm simply making a general statement

. It's a strong statement, but not directed at anyone here:

It is seriously lame to try to make money by selling CDRs (this includes sellers who throw in a "free" CDR of Dracula X with a legit original PCE game they are selling. Profiteers like this are a parasite on the Turbo community, IMO ...

ISO's and ROM's are freely available. Use them. Enjoy them. Share them. But don't try to make a cheap buck off of them.

I have no problem with folks trading / sharing CDR's / ISO's / ROM's-- it's no different than folks sharing music, film, and literature. It's when folks try to profit from it that I get upset.

/sermon

GUTS · 04/12/2006, 01:45 AM

The point about CDR sellers making ISOs harder to find for free is complete nonsense, they are data and can be replicated infinite times and they will ALWAYS be available out there for free if you look hard enough.

LMS · 04/12/2006, 07:03 AM

Here's a thought just to keep the thread lively.

If it's wrong to charge for your time (profit) when supplying CDrs then is it equally wrong for import shops to be selling second hand games as they are profiting (charging for their time) from buying at one price and selling on at another?

I have to agree with GUTS that this process doesn't make it harder for anyone to obtain ISOs, if anything it makes it easier as it increases the amount of people out there that have them to share.

If your answer to the above question is yes then are you of the opinion that everyone in this community (retro games in general, not just this forum) should be 'home collectors' and that there is no room for any business to operate? If you buy any second hand games from shops then you're supporting exactly what you're against, aren't you?

You'll notice I'm stirring things up here on purpose because I'm interested in peoples opinions. Hopefully this isn't going to turn the discussion at all ugly. Think I'll run for some cover anyway, just to be on the safe side.

motdelbuort · 04/12/2006, 09:18 AM

Nah, it's okay. Like I said, there's always going to be a few assholes around trying to make a quick buck at someone else's expense. Wannabe businessmen do have a way of taking all the fun out of a hobby, ask any former comic book collector. The PCE attracts this kind of person, I'm not sure why. But then there are awesome people who are making translations, running free bootleg rings, making sweet videos etc. And fortunately free stuff IS abundant enough, as somebody said, that they will only mostly be able to prey on casual users, which is most people. Before CDRs were common, someone tried to sell me a Dracula X CDR for $75 "due to rarity."

pixeljunkie · 04/12/2006, 11:33 AM

I think charging a couple bucks for a CDR of a game is okay...but charging different prices based on the games OMG RaRE!!!11!! is retarded [not that you said anything about that....just saying] I've bought a few CDRs of PCE games I was sick of hunting for ISOs of in the past. But I think I paid $3 shipped for each. I don't play CDrs in my Duo if I can help it though. I think the only CDR I've had in there in the last year was the english patched Ys 4.

I avoid them like the plague otherwise.

esteban · 04/13/2006, 06:39 AM

Hi LMS, don't worry, I love you, but here goes ....

Quote from: "LMS"Here's a thought just to keep the thread lively.

If it's wrong to charge for your time (profit) when supplying CDrs then is it equally wrong for import shops to be selling second hand games as they are profiting (charging for their time) from buying at one price and selling on at another?

No, you're comparing apples to oranges. Re-selling an original item is *NOT* analagous to selling copies of said item. You seem to be focusing exclusively on the final result of a transaction (i.e. making a profit) and ignoring the nature of the transaction itself.

When you buy an original (legal) item, you have certain "consumer rights" governing its use... The right to resell the item (and, in turn, for each subsequent owner to resell it) is one of these rights:
First Sale Doctrine explained:

Quote... Copyright owners hold an exclusive right to distribute copies of their work. The first sale doctrine is an exception to this right. As codified in 17 USC 109, as long as the particular copy was lawfully made, whoever owns it can distribute it however he chooses without infringing. Thus, after a copyright holder distributes a particular copy of a copyrighted work, their right to control distribution of that particular copy is over. Note that the copyright holder retains the right to distribute their copyrighted work in general, but loses rights to the particular distributed copy.

Examples of this doctrine in action are numerous. Video rental stores depend on the doctrine; once they purchase a copy of a video or DVD, they can distribute it to customers on whatever terms they choose, without consulting the copyright owner. Used book and CD stores depend on the doctrine; people can buy a CD, sell it to the store, which can then resell the CD, all without the authorization of the copyright owner. You can lend a book to a friend because of first sale. (Certain restrictions on rental do apply to music and computer programs, with exceptions for libraries and non-profit institutions.) ...

So, you *can* resell legally owned items. You are not granted the right to make unlimited CDR copies and sell them for profit, however.

Quote from: "LMS"If your answer to the above question is yes then are you of the opinion that everyone in this community (retro games in general, not just this forum) should be 'home collectors' and that there is no room for any business to operate? If you buy any second hand games from shops then you're supporting exactly what you're against, aren't you?

As I've argued, there *is* room for business in the retro gaming community: selling / reselling original games. Does this mean that all folks selling original games are "reasonable" and aren't profiteers? Of course not, there are some bastards who see nothing but $$$$. Folks selling CDR's are no better, IMO, because all they see are the $$$$ they can make from homemade copies.

Let's be honest, there is no altruism involved in selling CDR's / ROM collections / etc. If you want to help fellow gamers obtain games, there are countless ways you could achieve this goal. As I stated in my first post, the Turbo community needs active members .... but it certainly doesn't need parasites and profiteers.

Trying to make a quick buck: There's no dignity in it.

/sermon

dairugger · 04/14/2006, 04:00 AM

while were talking about it, does anyone know where i might get Super God Trooper Zeroigar (Tyoushin Heiki Zeroigar), i want to play this game sooo bad, and see what my fx can do, but its wayyyy expensive!

LMS · 04/14/2006, 06:39 AM

I'll send it to you if you don't mind paying the postage. Send me a PM if you're interested.

JoshTurboTrollX · 04/14/2006, 02:48 PM

Yeah me too!!!

Everyone has there ways of attaining great games. If its paying over $100 dollars for a game that was originally half that much or making backups. Its all good here!

TurboSage

Any means necassary to spread the NEC love!

radiantgun · 04/16/2006, 05:37 PM

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AI-CHO-ANIKI-PC-Engine-Duo-3-FREE-CD-Games-RARE_W0QQitemZ8277599599QQcategoryZ72501QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

tut tut )

esteban · 04/17/2006, 04:24 AM

Quote from: "radiantgun"http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AI-CHO-ANIKI-PC-Engine-Duo-3-FREE-CD-Games-RARE_W0QQitemZ8277599599QQcategoryZ72501QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

tut tut )

Yes, as vestcunt stated earlier, sellers who employ this tactic are quite lame.

rolins · 04/17/2006, 05:07 PM

Quote from: "radiantgun"http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AI-CHO-ANIKI-PC-Engine-Duo-3-FREE-CD-Games-RARE_W0QQitemZ8277599599QQcategoryZ72501QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

tut tut )

At least this seller is honest and clearly stated the free games are backups. Unlike the other bastards who are selling bootlegs of DracX with ME without any disclaimer. Those seller makes me want to cut their balls off and flush them down the toilet.

CrackTiger · 04/19/2006, 09:35 PM

Quote from: "motdelbuort"
Quote from: "td741"I've never played any CDRs and I've had 3 duo's CD drives die on me...

Personally, I'd only chance a CDR via emulation.

The commercial version of Meteor Blaster is a CDR, and every time I try to play it I have to take a screwdriver and unjam the lens mechanism inside the Duo. It jams up on the load screen and no discs will spin. I contacted MindRec about it and apparently there is nowhere left that can press a real TurboGrafx CD. Which makes me wonder even more how/when the Sapphire reprint was pressed.

I've heard people mention this before, that the Mindrec discs are all cdr.

But my copy of Implode looks identical to the bootleg Sapphire, with the thick inner ring and UPC bar code looking thing. Both are nice and golden and have writing burnt write into that inner ring.

How are these cdrs? And if they really are, where can I get some of these blank?

QuoteSpeaking of bootlegs...I was always amused by the term "backup". A backup is a copy you make of legitimately purchased media for your own use. Anything else whether sold or given away is pirated/bootlegged/warezed. Just threw that out there LMS because in your original post you mentioned not pretending it's anything but a copy, but calling it a "backup" is pretending a little.

How about "China", "Chinese" or "HK", "Hong Kong" versions?

Bt Garner · 04/19/2006, 09:47 PM

Quote from: "CrackTiger"I've heard people mention this before, that the Mindrec discs are all cdr.

But my copy of Implode looks identical to the bootleg Sapphire, with the thick inner ring and UPC bar code looking thing. Both are nice and golden and have writing burnt write into that inner ring.

Implode was never done on CD-Rs, with the notable exception of "Implode Caravan Version" (a version which appears on the MB DX CD). 3 Copies of this exist on CD-R, they were made for the MAGFest back in 2002. I know where are 3 copies are, so no fear of you having one....

By the time Meteor Blaster was ready to be pressed, the ability to press commercial PCE CDs was gone. You can see my posting in the CF2 re-release thread about this. But basically, all MB CDs are CD-Rs. I fully admit it, but this is by no fault of my own, it had to do with the Glass Master software that the CD Pressing Houses use.

-bt

CrackTiger · 04/19/2006, 10:18 PM

Quote from: "bt"
Quote from: CrackTigerI've heard people mention this before, that the Mindrec discs are all cdr.

But my copy of Implode looks identical to the bootleg Sapphire, with the thick inner ring and UPC bar code looking thing. Both are nice and golden and have writing burnt write into that inner ring.

Implode was never done on CD-Rs, with the notable exception of "Implode Caravan Version" (a version which appears on the MB DX CD). 3 Copies of this exist on CD-R, they were made for the MAGFest back in 2002. I know where are 3 copies are, so no fear of you having one....

By the time Meteor Blaster was ready to be pressed, the ability to press commercial PCE CDs was gone. You can see my posting in the CF2 re-release thread about this. But basically, all MB CDs are CD-Rs. I fully admit it, but this is by no fault of my own, it had to do with the Glass Master software that the CD Pressing Houses use.

-bt

Cool, thanks for clearing that up.

At least we know of one place that can still press PCE games.

Bt Garner · 04/20/2006, 08:02 AM

Quote from: "CrackTiger"At least we know of one place that can still press PCE games.

Um, where?

I have pretty much resigned myself to the fact that new PCE CDs are extinct unless the Glass Mastering software companies re-add the ability to override what they feel a CD layout should look like.

-bt

CrackTiger · 04/20/2006, 08:35 AM

Quote from: "bt"
Quote from: CrackTigerAt least we know of one place that can still press PCE games.

Um, where?

I have pretty much resigned myself to the fact that new PCE CDs are extinct unless the Glass Mastering software companies re-add the ability to override what they feel a CD layout should look like.

-bt

This company seems to be pumping out quite a few copies of Sapphire:

http://www.copyfactory.ch/

Bt Garner · 04/20/2006, 08:56 AM

Quote from: "CrackTiger"This company seems to be pumping out quite a few copies of Sapphire:

They did, are you sure they still can? The Sapphire boots came out about the same time that Implode did (2001 to 2002), the world of Glass Mastering has changed in those few years, so that "off-spec" CDs can no longer be made by the standard Glass Mastering softwares (Eclipse Suite being the primary one, and I honestly do not remember the name of the other major player in this field).

I am very doubtful that a PCE CD could be made right now, anywhere. I hope I am wrong, and I hope that this changes, but knowing what I know (having gone through the whole process), I am not going to hold my breath.

-bt

CrackTiger · 04/20/2006, 07:11 PM

Quote from: "bt"
Quote from: CrackTigerThis company seems to be pumping out quite a few copies of Sapphire:

They did, are you sure they still can? The Sapphire boots came out about the same time that Implode did (2001 to 2002), the world of Glass Mastering has changed in those few years, so that "off-spec" CDs can no longer be made by the standard Glass Mastering softwares (Eclipse Suite being the primary one, and I honestly do not remember the name of the other major player in this field).

I am very doubtful that a PCE CD could be made right now, anywhere. I hope I am wrong, and I hope that this changes, but knowing what I know (having gone through the whole process), I am not going to hold my breath.

-bt

Wow, I had no idea that the Sapphire "reprints" had been in circulation for so long.

If its true that noboby, or at least particulary Care4Data, can make PCE cds now, at least one good thing to come of it is that it would mean that there is a limited number of Sapphire bootlegs around.

Even though its probably a ratio of 100 fakes for every authentic copy.

Bt Garner · 04/20/2006, 09:01 PM

Quote from: "CrackTiger"If its true that noboby, or at least particulary Care4Data, can make PCE cds now, at least one good thing to come of it is that it would mean that there is a limited number of Sapphire bootlegs around.

Even though its probably a ratio of 100 fakes for every authentic copy.

I doubt that the ratio is that high.... if I were going to bootleg a game, especially at his late time, I woud not do more than 1,000 copies (and that generally seems to be the minimum amount needed for a run of pressed CDs, you can do 500, but the cost is almost the same, so 1,000 is the preferred number).

As for the actual number of legit Sapphires, no real idea, but somewhere in the 5-10,000 range would not surprise me.

-bt

MottZilla · 06/18/2006, 10:11 PM

So all the disc mastering services have switched over to some newer software that doesn't allow for PCE style discs? That's extremely disappointing.

Are you certain there is no where you can get a glass master made for a non-standard disc? It's truely a shame for PCE CD games made now to have to go on CD-Rs opposed to CD-ROMs.

So did Meteor Blaster get burned on some high quality media and burner and have a label thermal printed or something? I'm curious how you'd go about making them look as professional as possible.

esteban · 06/19/2006, 01:53 PM

Quote from: "MottZilla"So all the disc mastering services have switched over to some newer software that doesn't allow for PCE style discs? That's extremely disappointing.

Are you certain there is no where you can get a glass master made for a non-standard disc? It's truely a shame for PCE CD games made now to have to go on CD-Rs opposed to CD-ROMs.

I'm sure bt will answer all your questions, but let me assure you that he made an exhaustive search. Sad but true.

Bt Garner · 06/19/2006, 03:04 PM

Quote from: "MottZilla"So all the disc mastering services have switched over to some newer software that doesn't allow for PCE style discs? That's extremely disappointing.

It's not so much that they "switched over" -- but the software used to create glass masters is licensed, so anyone with a license has a more current version than what was used 4 years ago. Anyone with an older license would find it non-functional, and there is no way to get an older license.

Quote from: "MottZilla"Are you certain there is no where you can get a glass master made for a non-standard disc? It's truely a shame for PCE CD games made now to have to go on CD-Rs opposed to CD-ROMs.

Meteor Blaster DX was delayed for over 3 months while I searched the globe for a place that could do the PCE format. Now, I am not going to say that there is zero chance of a pressed PCE CD ever happening again, there are a few smaller firms out there that might be running their own Glass Mastering software (more likely, firms in certain parts of the world running hacked versions of the older PCE-friendly versions), and there is a small chance that some sort of ability to make a custom format could be re-added. But these are exteremely remote possibilities.

Quote from: "MottZilla"So did Meteor Blaster get burned on some high quality media and burner and have a label thermal printed or something? I'm curious how you'd go about making them look as professional as possible.

I had high quality CD-Rs printed with the MB label on them. Then I burned every single copy that was sold. At one point I had several laptops going at the same time to churn out versions. I killed 1 CD-R drive while doing this.

For the record, 500 printed blank CD-Rs cost about the same as 1000 printed, pressed CDs.

-bt

TurboXray · 06/19/2006, 10:27 PM

BT,

What was the exact problem with replicating PCE CDs? I remember hearing that it was the DATA track, but in REDBOOK format. I can't find any specification of a REDBOOK DATA track mode, other than a mention of a off spec version before YELLOW BOOK came out. I can't seem to find the difference between the YB & the off-spec RB data track.

Wouldn't it be possible to make an ORANGE BOOK glass master and press CD's from that? I've read on a few replicating sites that CD-R's are not true REDBOOK specification discs, but the PCE boots them fine. I know ORANGE BOOK defines physical specifications, but it also defines data/tracks/modes/toc etc.

-Rich

MottZilla · 06/19/2006, 11:52 PM

Thanks for all the information bt. I really hope you can find a way to get PCE compatible CDs pressed in the future. I know it's alot cheaper in the long run to press discs than to burn and print them.

Bt Garner · 06/20/2006, 05:13 AM

Quote from: "Bonknuts"What was the exact problem with replicating PCE CDs?

The PCE format does not adhere to any of the CD Standards, and the Glass Mastering software pretty much forces your CD to one of them. Since the PCE format is close to Yellow Book, it turns the PCE format into a Yellow Book CD, and this does not work in the console.

-bt

MottZilla · 06/25/2006, 12:35 AM

Bt, have you seen Super HuCard? It is a single data track disc that loads on real Super CDROM/DUO consoles. I'm not sure I understand what exactly the problem is with glass mastering software, but I'd guess it has to do with the strange audio data audio track layout. And sometimes audio data audio data. But I could be wrong. However if it is the strange A,D,A layout, Super HuCard seems to have figured out a way to get loaded with the first track as a data track. And I'd think you could do a regular mixed mode disc (I think thats the term) Data followed by Audio disc.

As I said though, I was unable to find out just what the issue about making bootable PCE CDs is related to.

Bt Garner · 06/25/2006, 06:21 AM

Quote from: "MottZilla"Bt, have you seen Super HuCard? It is a single data track disc that loads on real Super CDROM/DUO consoles. I'm not sure I understand what exactly the problem is with glass mastering software, but I'd guess it has to do with the strange audio data audio track layout. And sometimes audio data audio data. But I could be wrong. However if it is the strange A,D,A layout, Super HuCard seems to have figured out a way to get loaded with the first track as a data track. And I'd think you could do a regular mixed mode disc (I think thats the term) Data followed by Audio disc.

Trust me, I have already been down this road... both of the MindRec releases had to follow that D,A... format since trying to get an A,D,A... format CD pressed was even more problematic (read: impossible) than what I settled for.

Now granted, I could have moved back to the A,D,A... layout for MB since they were ultimately being burned, but I chose not to, since I did not want to go through and make a new "Audio Warning" track for the CD.

And yes, I am familiar with the Super HuCard ISO.. I will not go into details (for obvious reasons), but I did have a small hand in helping to get that out.

-bt

MottZilla · 06/25/2006, 01:23 PM

Alright, I just thought I'd ask incase that made any difference.

shubibiman · 06/26/2006, 12:41 PM

Haven't read all the messages but let me tell you one thing : selling back ups sucks, even if you only charge for the cd-r. It's sooo cheap I just give it away (and burning a CD takes soooo much of my time).

SchattenJager0 · 07/07/2006, 12:27 PM

Ive never sold a CDR of ANYTHING (music,games, whatever) to anyone. Me and my friends are all gamers so we all respect each other and never think twice about "payment" for games with each other.

Besides, CDRs are so cheap anyway... me and my friends usually just have a few spindles of 'community' blank CDrs we use.

In terms of being paid for the time involved:
The TIME put into finding ISOs and burning them always seemed like part of the fun to me. I always liked wading thru things and trying to make things work correctly. Even if im just taking the time to make a CDr to give my friends, I'm usually excited to share games with them, because I know they appreciate it, and would do the same for me.

to me, its always been about the games, not money.

MottZilla · 07/07/2006, 08:53 PM

As far as the cost of CD-Rs, they really do add up unless you totally cheap out. And with each burn that does wear on your burner. So eventually it is going to cost you.

But ofcourse, I don't agree with charging people for property you don't own, though having them pay for the medium it is contained on doesn't bother me. CD-Rs and DVD-Rs cost under 50 cents per disc, depending on the brand and where you buy them. So you probably spend more money on the jewel case for whatever you burnt!

I did actually buy some PSX games on CD-Rs waaaaaay back many many years. Back when PSX was actually alive.