Graphics: Turbo vs. Genesis - ye old debate

CrackTiger · 01/17/2009, 01:46 PM

Quote from: guest on 01/17/2009, 12:53 PMAt least with the Sega Genesis, US coders were capable of quite a bit. Look at Sega's STI division in the US. They did some very good work with the Genesis. Now, there were so few US and EU coders for the PCE/TG-16 it's probably hard to compare.

What TG-16 developers were US and EU, anyway?

Some of these may be the original developer, before someone like Hudson or NEC ported their game to the PC Engine, but I weeded most of those out-

Accolade
Cinemaware
Distinctive Software
Electronic Arts (Canada?)
Excite Software -girly discs
Gremlin Graphics
ICOM Simulations
Incredible Technologies Inc.
Loriciel
LucasArts
Manley & Associates
NEC Technologies
Psygnosis
Spectrum Holobyte
Strategic Simulations, Inc
Tengen
TTI

TurboXray · 01/17/2009, 03:55 PM

Quote from: guest on 01/17/2009, 12:53 PMAt least with the Sega Genesis, US coders were capable of quite a bit. Look at Sega's STI division in the US. They did some very good work with the Genesis.

If you look at the team, you'll find EU coders working for US companies ;)

geise · 01/17/2009, 05:16 PM

I believe Psygnosis just published the games, but Reflections developed Shadow of the Beast and Ballistix. I might be wrong though, just figured I'd add Reflections to the list. As for Euro and Japanese devs, I think both had great and lazy developers. I have an Amiga 500 and 1200, also an Atari ST . I played a lot of great original games on those computers when I was younger, but there were a lot of games that were bad graphically, and didn't push the hardware at all. When it came to arcade ports devs were really lazy. With the hardware the Amiga had most games should have been fairly close to the arcade. The amiga at the time was fairly similar to the x68000. The x68000 had near arcade perfect ports. Granted it was those same companies porting those games, but still.

ccovell · 01/17/2009, 07:09 PM

At least for Shadow of the Beast, it was DMA Design who did the port. I don't even know what role Reflections ever had in those Psygnosis games...

Oh, and wasn't it "The Code Monkeys" who did the port of Turrican?

OldRover · 01/17/2009, 09:43 PM

Quote from: ccovell on 01/17/2009, 07:09 PMOh, and wasn't it "The Code Monkeys" who did the port of Turrican?

The Code Monkeys did both the TurboGrafx-16 and Sega Genesis ports of Turrican. I believe it was Factor 5 themselves who did the NES port, though.

Arkhan Asylum · 01/17/2009, 09:46 PM

Reflections designed SotB, and Psygnosis was the publisher.

and for what its worth the PCE CD game is better than even the Amiga original.

spenoza · 01/17/2009, 09:48 PM

Quote from: Tom on 01/17/2009, 03:55 PM
Quote from: guest on 01/17/2009, 12:53 PMAt least with the Sega Genesis, US coders were capable of quite a bit. Look at Sega's STI division in the US. They did some very good work with the Genesis.
If you look at the team, you'll find EU coders working for US companies ;)

That doesn't necessarily contradict the premise, which is that I'm relatively certain there were US coders of talent as well.

TurboXray · 01/17/2009, 10:11 PM

For the record, the x68000 was much closer to the CPS1 hardware than the Amiga was. More powerful for tile/sprite games than the Amiga.

QuoteThat doesn't necessarily contradict the premise, which is that I'm relatively certain there were US coders of talent as well.

Other than Carmack, I don't haven't heard of anybody. There were some semi-famous guys for the c64 - might be some US guys in that bunch.

Funny that 4 Euro developed games for the PCE and none of them really push the system Euro style :/

Since this is a tech thread, I should mention something that was recently found out about the Arcade card. Development for the card started in '92. It was missing some regs and was a bit slower, but it was functional. It looks like Art of Fighting also started development for the prototype card in '92. It was finished in 3rd quarter '93, but had a delayed release date for some reason.

ParanoiaDragon · 01/18/2009, 12:23 AM

Quote from: guest on 01/17/2009, 09:46 PMReflections designed SotB, and Psygnosis was the publisher.

and for what its worth the PCE CD game is better than even the Amiga original.

I have mixed emotions about this. There's some missing paralax, that's for sure(like the fence in the field area is gone, no paralax in either underground area's, etc.). I think I even like the clouds in the original better.

Tatsujin · 01/18/2009, 01:00 AM

Quote from: guest on 01/17/2009, 09:46 PMand for what its worth the PCE CD game is better than even the Amiga original.

if you talking about the BGM, absolutely agreed. for the rest, nooooo way

spenoza · 01/18/2009, 11:19 AM

Quote from: Tom on 01/17/2009, 10:11 PMOther than Carmack, I don't haven't heard of anybody. There were some semi-famous guys for the c64 - might be some US guys in that bunch.

Funny that 4 Euro developed games for the PCE and none of them really push the system Euro style :/

Honestly, the US didn't often tout contributions from individual developers. I have read a number of articles that suggest there were indeed some kick ass US coders inside STI, for example.

ParanoiaDragon · 01/18/2009, 09:27 PM

Quote from: Tatsujin on 01/18/2009, 01:00 AM
Quote from: guest on 01/17/2009, 09:46 PMand for what its worth the PCE CD game is better than even the Amiga original.
if you talking about the BGM, absolutely agreed. for the rest, nooooo way

There are some things I like better in the PCE version besides the music. The background in the fortress I like better despite the lack of paralax, the cinemas are awesome, I like some of the sound effects better(like the sound of the Beast running, which isn't in the Amiga version), I like the 2 area's in the undergound being seperate from eachother, & I do like the animation in the background of those levels, but, I wish, since there was no paralax, that they would've done more with that. I know that the Turbo version could've been better then it is. Really though, I can't say any one version of SotB is the best.

Tatsujin · 01/19/2009, 12:55 AM

yeah..may be here and there something looks better in the pce port. what i recognized was, that some sprites are looking nicer and more colorful in the pce port. but all around and with the missing of a lot of parallaxes, the game just doesn't appear in the full glance and glory as the amiga version did. just check out the pathetic and lots of detail missing background in level 2 (down the tree), compared to the amiga version, this is like day and night.

Joe Redifer · 01/19/2009, 01:49 AM

I can't remember which track it is off the top of my head, but Shadow of the Beast on the Turbo has some hiss in the music that begins maybe 30 seconds or a minute after the music has started. That is annoying and very unprofessional.

Tatsujin · 01/19/2009, 01:56 AM

also do not know exactly about what you're talking now, but what i can say with certain, the 3 tracks (04) The Plains 1, (07) The Plains 2 & (06) Underwater are some of the best written classic game BGMs in history

ccovell · 01/19/2009, 02:14 AM

Joe, I know of the hiss as well... it's most noticeable at the end of the track, as the song fades out but the hiss is still audible. I still think the music is fantastic for something which (I gather) was done by 1 guy at DMA, and not in a professional recording studio.

Tatsujin · 01/19/2009, 02:19 AM

Quote from: ccovell on 01/19/2009, 02:14 AMJoe, I know of the hiss as well... it's most noticeable at the end of the track, as the song fades out but the hiss is still audible. I still think the music is fantastic for something which (I gather) was done by 1 guy at DMA, and not in a professional recording studio.

all the PCE tracks are done by Tim Wright als known as CoLD SToRAGE. here is his official page -> http://www.coldstorage.org.uk/

a great fellow

_Paul · 01/19/2009, 03:36 AM

Regardless of the technical aspects of each game, I think the PCE version plays better. That said, neither are exactly shining examples of game design.

awack · 01/19/2009, 04:56 PM

I played a little of the amiga version years ago, i remember it had the same gameplay as most other SOTB games, the punch that you have to time just right to make contact, i do have the genesis version, which has graphics which are very close to the Amiga but not quite as good.

The pce SOTB, definitely has the best gameplay, it is also, from a technical stand point, superior to the genesis version, which might apply to the amiga as well, there are a few exceptions, like the dual layer with the nice tree Bg in the two under ground parts, in the pce SOTB, its replaced with a simple texture, but almost everything else in those two sections are drawn better with more detail. The main character is larger with much better animation, allot of the enemies and bosses are larger, more onscreen colors, more onscreen sprites, better sound fx, line scroll, Bg animations and music.

Allot of the Genesis Bg (Amiga even more so) are stylistically, in my opinion, better, sprites look worse though.

Its interesting to point out that the Megadrive version was changed to look more like the turbo duo/pce version, the main character sprite was redrawn and colored, along with a few enemy/bosses, i don't know if this was done contemporaneously or after some had seen the Turbo duo SOTB.

TurboXray · 01/19/2009, 05:33 PM

Make Dailly worked on the PCE CD port, but I don't remember him mentioning working on the Genesis/Megadrive one. You could always ask him, of course.

awack · 01/19/2009, 06:30 PM

Yea, i think Mike Daily was the main programer, on the DMA site it says (Mike started what was to be his most hated project)...and that Martin Chudley did all the new graphics.

spenoza · 01/19/2009, 09:31 PM

Wow, the Rockstar North (used to be DMA) web site is probably the least usable web design I've ever experienced in my life. The interaction model is horrible, the labels nearly worthless, and it's impossible to tell what's what. Their web designer should be fired and put on a pedestal as an example of what NEVER to do in designing a web site.

Tatsujin · 01/19/2009, 11:11 PM

Comparing time!

Amiga:

PCE:

MD:

And here a comparison of all versions:

you guys can tell me what you want, but when it comes to the graphical aspects, the amiga version is far superior. and since this is a thread about graphics, don't bother me with gameplay etc. issues.

especially the BGs of the 2nd stage looking very poor on the pce. and the lack of parallax makes it even worse! no compare to the amiga version. and i know, those youtube links aren't the best quality to judge the real deal.

CrackTiger · 01/20/2009, 01:52 AM

Wow, thanks for the links.

They sure did a great job with all the SotB ports. Even the SMS version is 16-bit quality. The early computer and Lynx ports also look great and all have parallax. The only two that looked kinda hokey to me are the SNES and FM Towns versions. The japanese Mega Drive version in particular is very well done.

The PC Engine port may be missing some aspects found in other versions, but it also has several exclusive strengths that are better than any other version. The forest area could've used the foreground fence and MD/Amiga cloud art and still run the same though, it's weird that they weren't put in. Still, the game is very impressive on every platform. I've gotta get a copy of the SMS version mow.

Joe Redifer · 01/20/2009, 02:50 AM

I am disappointed that the FM Towns version STOLE the music from the PCE version. This angers me. I am going to write my congressman about this! Also, the SNES version was pretty lame with those hokey sound effects for picking up items, etc.

ParanoiaDragon · 01/20/2009, 03:16 AM

Both the SNES & FM Towns versions should've been better then what they were. As I said, I'm torn on the underground levels, I love the paralax in the Amiga & other versions, but, I do really like the animation added to the BG in the Turbo version, but, still wish there was paralax. I hate the background for the fortress level of the Amiga version, & think that the Turbo version is very appropriate. I love the clouds in the Genesis version I think the most though. The hiss is in the first underground area, it's like they turned a mic on, & didn't bother to re-record. It looks like the FM Towns version was also released by Victor Musical, so, it's no wonder it has the same music. Also, I should note, that the gfx in the FM Towns version, look like the gfx shown for the Turbo version in one of the Turbo/Duo Play's, where the gfx look almost cartoony with a lack of detail.

ParanoiaDragon · 01/20/2009, 03:19 AM

Something I just noticed on Mike Daily's site, there is a game listed called Paradroid. The was a game for the Turbo, that was being worked on(atleast, according to EGM) called Paradroid! I wonder if there's any connection??

Tatsujin · 01/20/2009, 03:33 AM

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 01/20/2009, 02:50 AMI am disappointed that the FM Towns version STOLE the music from the PCE version. This angers me. I am going to write my congressman about this!

that's because, for both version tim wright was responsible. and he didn't want to re-compose it just for the lumpy towns version.

geise · 01/20/2009, 10:09 AM

I loved Shadow of the Beast on the Amiga. I also loved SotB on the PC-Engine. I still think the Amiga is the superior version. I just remember buying the amiga version when it came out and just being blown away by the sound and graphics. It really was something special to me. Hard to imagine 3 guys made the game. Also I thought David Whittaker did the music for beast1 and Tim did 2 and 3?
It's also crazy just two guys programmed and did the graphics for the original. That's how it was back then.

Tatsujin · 01/20/2009, 10:35 AM

Quote from: geise on 01/20/2009, 10:09 AMAlso I thought David Whittaker did the music for beast1 and Tim did 2 and 3?

very right so for the amiga versions. but for the pce & marty versions, tim took his hands on it. dunno for the md & sfc versions. anyway, he made a superior job on the pce version. listen to its score sheer weekly, since years now

geise · 01/20/2009, 10:55 AM

Haha derf =B I totally forgot that David Whittaker mainly did the original beast score, and Tim redid the music for the PC-E and Marty versions. Regardless I miss Psygnosis, and buying the games that came with Roger Dean designed shirts. The amiga, ST, and PC-Engine gave me many good gaming memories.

Retro-Nerd · 01/20/2009, 11:14 AM

Quote from: Tatsujin on 01/20/2009, 03:33 AM
Quote from: Joe Redifer on 01/20/2009, 02:50 AMI am disappointed that the FM Towns version STOLE the music from the PCE version. This angers me. I am going to write my congressman about this!
that's because, for both version tim wright was responsible. and he didn't want to re-compose it just for the lumpy towns version.

The FM-Towns version was first, probably released late in 1991. Then they recycled Tim's soundtrack for the PC-Engine CD port, released in March 1992.

geise · 01/20/2009, 11:18 AM

It's a good soundtrack Tim did so I don't mind the port of the music. If both games were coming out so close to eachother why bother redoing the music. It's like changing the music from a ps3 game to port it to the 360. Doesn't really make sense. Especially when it's the same game.

Joe Redifer · 01/20/2009, 12:58 PM

Why hasn't this Tim guy done any music anywhere even close to the quality of Shadow of the Beast since then?

spenoza · 01/20/2009, 12:58 PM

Could someone link to Mike Daily's site? I'd like to read some of the content there. Thanks.

NecroPhile · 01/20/2009, 01:15 PM

Quote from: guest on 01/20/2009, 12:58 PMCould someone link to Mike Daily's site? I'd like to read some of the content there. Thanks.

Follow the link from Tom's post and you'll eventually arrive at www.mikedailly.com.

Retro-Nerd · 01/20/2009, 01:31 PM

Quote from: Joe Redifer on 01/20/2009, 12:58 PMWhy hasn't this Tim guy done any music anywhere even close to the quality of Shadow of the Beast since then?

I like his title tune for Agony (Amiga). A really nice piano track.

youtube .com/watch?v=yX-SpbE1n9Q

awack · 01/20/2009, 06:48 PM

Quotethe amiga version is far superior. and since this is a thread about graphics, don't bother me with gameplay etc. issues.

No doubt, the amiga version has the best graphics.

There are some parts that are nice in snes version, but over all i think its poor, i also don't think it had a commercial release.

Below are some shots of the pce and genesis versions.

genesis pc engine

Joe Redifer · 01/20/2009, 08:33 PM

I find it interesting that the US and Japanese Genesis versions are graphically different. Audibly too, I think.

Anyone have comparison shots of those? Or should I do it? ;)

Tatsujin · 01/20/2009, 09:25 PM

you should do it! ;)

awack · 01/20/2009, 09:45 PM

Here are a couple(not the best comparison shots), the Jpn version seems to be influenced by the turbo duo SOTB, a few things don't look as good as its US counter part but over all i think it looks quite a bit better.

TurboXray · 01/20/2009, 09:59 PM

Quote from: Tatsujin on 01/20/2009, 09:25 PMyou should do it! ;)

I'll 2nd that ;)

OldRover · 01/20/2009, 10:36 PM

Terrible colors.

Joe Redifer · 01/21/2009, 02:39 AM

OK here is my version:

Tatsujin · 01/21/2009, 06:43 AM

Quote from: Tom on 01/20/2009, 09:59 PM
Quote from: Tatsujin on 01/20/2009, 09:25 PMyou should do it! ;)
I'll 2nd that ;)

what comes next? I like to 3rd you've 2nd that, now? ;)

awack · 01/21/2009, 07:30 PM

Here are the last levels of sotb.

Genesis pc engine

Ceti Alpha · 01/21/2009, 08:55 PM

Thanks guys, btw, for all these comparison shots. Very cool. It's really hard to say which is better.

Tatsujin · 01/21/2009, 09:09 PM

which the best is, can be said with ease. but which the 2nd best is, is much harder.

lisalover1 · 01/24/2009, 07:28 AM

QuoteGenesis Zealot: The Genesis has 80 sprites!
Turbo Zealot: Yeah but the Turbo can do 32x64 sprites, whereas the Genesis can only do 32x32 tops!
Genesis Zealot: The Genesis has two background layers! Hah, beat that, Turbonerd!
Turbo Zealot: So does the Supergrafx! And it has twice the RAM! Hah back at you!
Genesis Zealot: Hey that's not fair, no one has a Supergrafx!
Turbo Zealot: Hah! Sucks to be you!
Genesis Zealot: The Genesis has SHADOW MODE!!!!!!*&^!@$#^^
Turbo Zealot: The Turbo has more colors already built in without the need for some stupid hardware hack!
Genesis Zealot: The Genesis has 32 megabit games!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111
Turbo Zealot: You need all that extra memory for the wasteful CPU your console has! We don't NEED cartridges that big! Besides, our Street Fighter II kicks your Street Fighter II's stupid ass!
Genesis Zealot: Sega's games on the Turbo look like ass!
Turbo Zealot: WELL NO DUH! They had to make them look like crap on superior hardware (Turbo) so they could sell more of their inferior hardware (Genesis)!
Genesis Zealot: Well suck on this! The Genesis has a 16 bit CPU with a higher clock rate! HAH! Sucks to be your old 8 bit turtle!
Turbo Zealot: The Turbo's CPU is more efficient than your wasteful RISC wanabe CPU! It performs better than your Frankenstein of a CPU!

SNES Zealot: Hey, guys, what's up?
Genesis Zealot: Um, I have to go somewhere... else, now.
Turbo Zealot: Uh, yeah, me too!

Ceti Alpha · 01/24/2009, 11:18 AM

Quote from: Tatsujin on 01/21/2009, 09:09 PMwhich the best is, can be said with ease. but which the 2nd best is, is much harder.

hehe