I'm sure the problem will come back, I just wanted to know if anyone had had the same experience with redbook audio working again after not working at all.
OMG! ZIRIA! ZIRIA!! ZIRIA!!! IT ACTUALLY HAPPENED!! 34 YEARS LATER!! The epic/legendary Tengai Makyou/Far East of Eden: Ziria JRPG has finally been localized! Supper the Subtitler struck again! Simply unstoppable, NOTHING can prevent him from TOTAL PCECD localization domination!!!! WHACHA GONNA DO BROTHER?!?! |
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Show posts MenuQuote from: PCEngineHell on 03/01/2007, 07:35 AMMany systems ehh...Really crappy composite in some cases, and RGB could only be obtained with mods or homemade/imported cables, the American branches of the companies didn't do jack to give customers RGB. And there's plenty of video game systems that came out before the NES that only had RF.
Last I checked the Master system,Genesis,Nes,Pc Engine on up all either produced either composite,or RGB,
QuoteSnes produces S-Video and RGB.The first version of the SNES anyways.
QuoteAnd after even stating in your own words that your setup using Dscaler is not perfect,I never said it wasn't perfect for obtaining a 240p image from a video game system.
QuoteScanlines are a normal part of SDTV,and older game systems are all built around the idea of being displayed on a SDTV with a NTSC or Pal signal. IT IS THE WAY IT IS MEANT TO BE VIEWED.This is nothing more than your opinion. A gamer can choose to play his video games however he likes, no video game company said you always have to play their games with scanlines. And the way games are designed isn't always absolute from an official standpoint, either. Game Boy games were designed to be played on a Game Boy, yet Nintendo brought out several ways to play them on a TV.
QuoteAs far as me saying anything specific as to why Dscaler not as good looking,well for one the color reproduction is off,A small difference in color quality hardly makes a big difference. The tint isn't off and colors look perfectly vibrant.
Quoteand 2 the fact that your running it into a capture card,then displaying it on a VGA monitor which has a completely different and much higher pixel per scan line count is also another reason.So what? All the same pixels and lines are still being displayed, nothing is being dropped.
QuoteNo matter how much work you have Dscaler do,it will not look as good or even the exact same as my TV with my systems run in composite or S-video.If you think composite is better than my setup just because it has scanlines, more power to you. Gave me a good laugh, though.
Quote from: PCEngineHell on 03/01/2007, 06:44 AMIn other words you are then using Dscaler to clean the captured image up a bit to make it cleaner and more appealing to your eyes.I'm not using a filters to clean up the image. I'm just using DScaler to deinterlace (to 240p in the case of retro video games or 480p for DVDs, etc.). All this does is restore the original progressive image.
QuoteIf so,then why are you still on here arguing with us for hours on end.....I don't necessarily have to actually be working 100% of the time I'm at work.
QuoteNo matter how well you optimize the settings on Dscaler,it will not be perfect,or as good looking on old game systems as a SDTV.This is your opinion, and you haven't said anything specific about how a video game looks poor using DScaler so I don't see why I should count your opinion as an informed one.
QuoteTo some extent you even admitted this,but you turn around and say you prefer your setup because you don't like scanlines and low refresh rates.RGB is better than S-Video, but not by much. As for scanlines, the only thing they do for me is to help hide the fact that I'm seeing a low-resolution video game on a big screen, which doesn't bother me in the first place. YMMV.
QuoteWell,I am sorry but old game systems were built for SDTV image capability,not to be run into AIW Pros with Dscaler and displayed on Super VGA screens.Many weren't built with RGB output or even S-Video or composite output, either. Just like how Nintendo crippled the later releases of the Gamecube, I doubt if any of the makers thought the majority of gamers would be using their systems on anything but ghetto TVs.
QuoteI have already had plenty of discussions like this before,and about upscalers too when I chit chatted on laser disc forums. Basically what your trying to do is improve a image that cant be improved the way your thinking it can it sounds like.Again, be more precise. How is DScaler not restoring a 240p image from the 480i output of a video game system?
Quote from: Joe Redifer on 03/01/2007, 05:57 AMStop talking and start taking pictures!Sorry, I'm at work right now.
QuoteI don't think there is anything more that can be said without pictures (except an off-topic remark that DVDs can store progressive images without telecine).They can, yes. But many, many are only stored as interlaced, especially TV shows, even if they're shot on film. DScaler and other deinterlacers can reconstruct the 24 film frames per second and display them as progressive video. This is a feature built into most DVD players nowadays, but the quality can vary.
Quote from: PCEngineHell on 03/01/2007, 05:30 AMLook,I think we just said a side by side comparison would prove it,but you are not willing to do that I am sure.Considering I'd have to get an entirely new monitor that can support RGB or get both a new TV and a transcoder yeah, I don't quite feel like doing that just to see essentially the same image except with scanlines and on a display with a lower refresh rate (I run mine at 120Hz).
QuoteI have already seen it run,its not impressive,That doesn't tell me much.
Quoteand it is not just as good as just using my tv,esp for games. I also fail to see why you would need to capture a DVD and clean up the image with Dscaler.DScaler is not capture software. It was designed to watch external devices in real time on a PC. My "capture card" is also made for this specific use. And since DVDs often contain a progressive image telecined to a 480i one, so you need some kind of deinterlacer to do this. There are multiple ways of doing this on a computer, DScaler is but one of them.
QuoteBesides the obvious image quality problems,I'm not seeing any. Have any specific examples?
Quotethe fact you have to use your computer,the fact you have to start it up and run Windows first,unlike just turning on a TV,is a problem in and of itself.Doesn't bother me as I'm often using it for other things.
QuoteCouple that with the limited viewing size of affordable VGA monitors. And when you say 22 inch I am to take it then your viewing area for your computer screen is 20-19 inch?20 or 21 I believe, but sitting in my normal chair, the screen fills a good bit of my field of vision. Sometimes I have to scoot back, depending on what's being displayed.
QuoteYour method to play a old game system is alot more bulky,less convenient,and takes longer to get going,None of these things matter to me compared to the quality, which I am perfectly satisfied with for the time being.
Quoteand produces a less desirable picture quality.You'll have to be more specific if you want this point to have any value.
Quote from: PCEngineHell on 03/01/2007, 04:53 AMWhat happened,did you try to carry this argument over at GamefaqsUh, no. I tried reading the boards there once, but I got sick of the all the fanboy flamings well before I ever posted there.
Quotemy computer with Dscaler to my whopping huge 19 inch VGA monitor22 inch, actually.
Quoteand because I know my Dreamcast run trough s-video trough DscalerActually, I only do this for games that aren't compatible with the VGA box.
Quote from: PCEngineHell on 03/01/2007, 04:25 AMI'm willing to have them if it significantly increases the quality in other areas, but the small increase in color quality RGB cables provide isn't enough for me to get another setup.Quote from: Buster D on 03/01/2007, 03:23 AMI like the monitor and setup I have, and I don't want to search around for a RGB-capable monitor (or CRT TV with component input and a transcoder) that's still in pristine condition like my Mitsubishi Diamondtron. And while I don't hate scanlines, I prefer not having them.
Quote from: PCEngineHell on 03/01/2007, 04:13 AMJoe,there is not any point in arguing with this guy. He just clearly stated he hates normal tvs,scanlines,ect ect..and the way the stuff is intended to look and run is on normal tvs. He thinks his computer + Dscaler is Jesus and his word of it gospel. He honestly believes in everything he is saying,even if wrong,and you will never convince him to think otherwise. He is rich in stupidity on this subject,he already proved that much.Yeah, I hate scanlines. That's why I said the exact opposite in my previous post.
Quote from: PCEngineHell on 03/01/2007, 03:03 AMAs for Dscaler,yea,I have seen it used,and I think its good software tool,but I think its laughable at best that you are running a bunch of old game systemsWhy, specifically? What technical reason is there other than the color quality difference?
into a computer via capture card
Quote,and are having to use a software program to try to get your image to resemble the original look that a good $150-200 dollar Tv is going to give you anyway for your old game systems,but its not. A better solution would be to just use a good tv.I like the monitor and setup I have, and I don't want to search around for a RGB-capable monitor (or CRT TV with component input and a transcoder) that's still in pristine condition like my Mitsubishi Diamondtron. And while I don't hate scanlines, I prefer not having them.
Quotethe point you keep making about how leet you are cause your using your computer and Dscaler to TRY to do what a normal tv WILL do for you instead.Are you saying that DScaler is not in fact taking the 240 lines from each 480i field and displaying them as a 240p frame?
QuoteLesson for the childrenYeah, whatever. Feel free to continue the flames, but if you have any technical evidence as to why DScaler sucks so bad for gaming, I'll be around.
Quote from: Joe Redifer on 02/28/2007, 11:48 PMYou said "240p sent as 480i looks like ass compared to 240p as 240p". This is not true on a setup such as mine, as the video lines are exactly the same. The only difference is in the color quality when comparing S-Video to RGB, which is negligible with a properly calibrated display.Quote60 frames of 240p converted to 60 fields of 480i is the exact same video lines.Never said it wasn't.
Quote from: PCEngineHell on 02/28/2007, 02:39 PMAfter all the money spent by sending your system to Dean you could honestly just by a encoder and install it yourself if you have any solder skills at all.I might do that, although I'd need to get a new soldering iron. If it'd take more than 30 minutes though, I'd probably rather just spend the money since I have a half-decent job nowadays.
Quote from: PCEngineHell on 02/28/2007, 05:36 PMI also think Buster D can take Dscaler and stick it up his ass. I know he thinks hes being all techie and cool and leet by running his game systems into his computer,but honestly,its not leet,or cool,and its the poorest choice to run your favorite older game systems.Have you seen a console through S-Video using Old Game mode of DScaler for yourself, or are you basing this on others' opinions? I don't really care what people think about me, but my setup is an easy solution for many, and is most likely easier for most than getting a secondary or new TV. If people don't like it after trying it and want something better, that's fine, but I see little point in saying it's the worst way to display video games without giving any reason.
QuoteAnd the difference between S-video and VGA on Dreamcast is night and day. The majority of software for Dreamcast was designed around Super VGA quality picture,not SDTV interlaced. All the games that support VGA look way way better in VGA. The color is correct,the detail is all there,the picture is cleaner and worlds sharper.Naturally the details are all there and motion certianly looks better since it's a 640x480 uninterlaced image and not the same image sent as 480i and then deinterlaced. I should've specified that I was just referring to the color quality, which isn't a massive step up from S-Video.
QuoteI cant even believe it was suggested that DC Super VGA is not much better then S-video. Laughable.Dreamcast outputs 640x480 (or half that depending on the game IIRC). Super VGA usually refers to 800x600 (edit: and 1078x768 as well I believe).
Quote from: Joe Redifer on 02/28/2007, 05:01 PMIf you're only comparing a 240p signal sent as-is to a 480i signal displayed as-is instead of back to 240p, then you aren't making a valid comparison.QuoteOn what are you basing this opinion? What specific setups have you seen 480i properly deinterlaced to the original 240p frames?My eyeballs. I can see. You seem to think that I have a huge array of scalers and whatnot. I do not.
Quote from: Joe Redifer on 02/28/2007, 05:53 AMOn what are you basing this opinion? What specific setups have you seen 480i properly deinterlaced to the original 240p frames? I play my systems regularly through this method on my 22" Mitsubishi CRT monitor from 2004, and there is no easily visible loss in quality compared to PS1 games played on my PS2 hooked up through component, nor do Dreamcast games played through VGA look significantly better.Quoteeach frame's 240 lines are simply sent as a 480i field, which is 240 lines of actual informationVery true, but it looks much worse when it is displayed as 480i instead of 240p.
QuoteBut the reason s-video seems so much better is simply because composite sucks so bad. In Midnight Resistance for the Genesis, the text on the item/weapon containers between rounds is much more readable on component than it is in s-video, which itself is a hell of a lot more readable than composite. I can take new comparison pictures of that part if you like.When you use S-Video, unlike what DScaler does your display isn't taking the 240 lines from each 480i field and displaying it as 240p, so comparison pictures from it wouldn't be of any use to this discussion.
Quote from: Joe Redifer on 02/28/2007, 04:12 AMI never said anything about a 480p signal. Where did you get that?I was making a comparison between the interlacing done on a 240p signal (each frame's 240 lines are simply sent as a 480i field, which is 240 lines of actual information) vs a 480p image interlaced to 480i, which looses information.
QuoteBut for all intents and purposes, 240p sent as 480i looks much blockier than regular 240p, since the space between the scanlines is filled with the lines directly above it.This does not apply to equipment such as a PC running DScaler in Old Game mode or a standalone deinterlacer that can properly create a 240p frame from a 480i field.
QuoteAnd that's why it's called 240p. The 'p' is for 'progressive'. And yes, that means progressive scan on just about any regular SDTV in the entire world.I didn't know that TVs could recognize a 240p signal without confusing it for an 480i one (except maybe in Europe, but I don't know much about their situation), but I'll take your word for it. You have the RGB signal transcoded to YPbPr component, right? What transcoder do you use? What's the model of your TV?
QuoteOn many of the the Sega Ages collections in Japan, there is even a 240p option to play the games in the original resolution.Which one? I was thinking about getting some of them eventually, I can pick it up in Akihabara on the way home from work someday.
QuoteWhy would this be there along with a 480i option if 240p was alwasy sent as an interlaced signal?I never said that it was. However, the resolution lines when it's sent as 480i are exactly the same as 240p, because a 480i field has 240 active lines and they can be easily combined to make a 240p image, such as when using DScaler. This software takes very little CPU processing in Old Game mode, and in addition has no detectable lag (unless introduced by the capture card), unlike many standalone deinterlacers and scalers in HDTVs. I can perform moves in fighting games with exact precision. I'm sure your setup has no lag either though.
QuoteIt's not about "how many" colors NTSC can produce, it's about how well it produces those colors. I could go into a long discussion about NTSC color bandwidth, and how it doesn't have much space. But instead I'll just say that the luma (B&W) portion of the signal gets a lot more space than the combined red, green blue, etc get. PAL has much better color space than NTSC and therefore the color looks much better. Component video is free from all of this nonsense, but it has goofiness of it's own. It does not transmit the color green. But fortunately the way component video works, there is no theoretical loss from raw RGB.Yes, RGB and component cables will give you slightly better color quality than S-Video, but it's not a huge improvement like the kind you get going from composite to S-Video (or better), especially since the human eye is much more sensitive to light/dark differences in video than color.
Quote from: Joe Redifer on 02/27/2007, 09:43 PMWell, I think you're confusing a lot of what I was saying. I never said a line-doubled 240p signal increased resolution.I'm not talking about line doubling. I'm saying that when a 240p signal is sent as 480i, the exact same video lines are still present and can be displayed as 240p with the proper equipment. A 240p signal sent as 480i isn't quite the same as a 480p signal interlaced to 480i.
QuoteThere is no flicker in a real 240p image n a CRT TV.If it's an interlaced display and not a monitor or EDTV(480p) or HDTV, then yes, there will be flicker on a CRT. That's how interlacing works.
QuotePlease post some pictures captured from s-video of Super Duper Castlevania IV with lots of floating hearts on the screen.I don't currently have a SFC, but I might be able to fill a request for a PCE game through S-Video.
QuoteLike I said, s-video is still limited to NTSC color space, which the entire world agrees isn't exactly the best.Does this matter for the systems that output 240p? Are there old video game systems that output colors that aren't in NTSC?
Quote from: Joe Redifer on 02/27/2007, 08:07 PMThere is a flag in the 480i video signal that tells the CRT to advance to the next field. A 240p signal simply removes that flag. It is 60 progressive frames per second on a 240p signal, running at up to 720x243. It is easy to interlace a 240p signal, yes, but it is pointless unless every 1/60th of a second is one half of a picture, therefore resulting in the resolution increase that 480i provides over 240p.I don't get what you're saying here... sending a 240p signal as 480i doesn't really increase the resolution, it just shows the lines at alternating intervals.
QuoteIf every 1/60th of a second is the entire picture, it will just look blocky and therefore like complete ass.Seeing the pixels doesn't bother me really, and if it did the flicker from a CRT SDTV would bother me more. As for 60 frames per second, that's a good thing as lots of games are rendered that way, especially arcade games and arcade ports.
QuoteThe best way is just to play old game systems on SDTVs and not HDTVs. My SDTV has a component input and it looks RGB quality, easily. Also someone said that component isn't much better than s-video. I beg to differ. S-video is still limited to NTSC color, component is not. Reds look much better over component (depending on your set, of course). With s-video, the red hearts and stuff like that in Super Duper Castlevania IV on the SNES still have color bleed to the right on every TV I've ever tried. Completely gone with RGB/component. If your source is compressed all to hell like DVD, then yeah component won't look amazingly great. But if the source is RGB, then hell yeah it will!I think that's more a problem with the TVs than the signal. I don't see any bleeding reds when S-Video is input to my computer monitor through my capture card (actually it's the PDI Deluxe aka Sweetspot, it's more of a card meant for watching external inputs on a PC). All of my video game systems outputting S-Video look just as good as the Component from my PS2, which the card also accepts.
Quote from: PCEngineHell on 01/09/2007, 02:16 AMI know that Masaaki Uno the head director and producer for Wolfteam,along with the original founder Masahiro Akishino and most of the programers and staff that worked on the Megadrive/Genesis titles left in 1993 after Telenet decided to restructure and merge everything back into one name/division/company.I was introduced to Uno-sensei a year and a half ago in a bar (his parents' house in Tokyo is near where I live). He's a real nice guy, he even helped me a little bit when I was job hunting. He told me about his work for the various Shining RPGs and for Camelot, but I had no idea about his work for Wolfteam.
Quote from: "Tatsujin"dead moon already is containing, of course^^
QuoteVeigues Tactical Gladiator imo is much more a jump'n shoot than a shoot' em up. sorry, i can't add this one.
Quote from: "Tatsujin"i bet against! since the price for a sealed & mint ADX in akiba amounts about US$500 as well!