Opinions wanted: RPG project for Xbox 360

[OldRover]

I have a dilemma that I wanted to run past y'all here... I am in the process of resurrecting one of my RPG projects on the Xbox 360. However, I am unsure as to the visual style I want to do for it. I have three main options...

-I could go straight-up 2D. I would use Inquisitor's tilesets, and have someone draw character sprites. This is the easiest way but might make it look too "retro".

-I could go "2.5D" by using a modeling program to pre-render scenes, not unlike FF7. This would give me tons of freedom but also increases the workload considerably, and I will have to have a lot of models prepared for it.

-I could go full-on 3D. Obviously the hardest way, but might be the most visually impressive overall. I lack the skill to design models myself, so I would be completely reliant on someone else.

So... any thoughts on this? I realize we're pretty much all PCE freaks around here but we're all also gamers, so this has general appeal... hence why I'm posting it in chit chat and not homebrew discussion (since it's not PCE dev related).

[Bernie]

I would not like the 3-D deal..  Guess I ma old skool.  Would prefer 2-D.

[Sadler]

I prefer 2D as well. Out of curiosity, why would full 3D be harder than prerendered? Either way you still have to generate the 3D assets. Honestly, fully 3D seems like it could be easier in that you don't need to generate as high quality a model because players will afford you some leeway for real time 3D. Or maybe that was the case 10 years ago and I need to get with the program. Are you planning on using sprites for characters if it's 2.5D? I suppose prerendered has the advantage of known camera angles, but you could have a fix (or scripted) camera in 3D which could do the same. Just curious!

[OldRover]

Prerendered is easier for several reasons. First of all, all of the models are in different formats, but the modeling software understands them all. If I were to go true 3D, they would all have to be converted to .X model format to be acceptable in the content pipeline. That can translate (pun unintended) into a ton of work. Also, many of them would need decimation, as most of my models are rather high-poly. Plus, prerendered is really just a case of putting together a few layers of image fragments... writing a game engine in this style is ridiculously easy. I would have to write my own 3D world handler if I went true 3D, and that's quite a time sink. And yes, everything in prerendered would be sprites, and of course I have sprite scaling for depth... of course that's intrinsic to 3D, so it's not an issue for either methods.

A prerendered scene will use anywhere from about 150k to upwards of 400k triangles per scene. I am not sure if there are any systems available today that can process 400k triangles 60 times per second. Obviously you don't show them all at once, but using all those high-poly models would really be ridiculous in realtime. Decimation takes time too, if you want good results.

[Sadler]

Thanks for the reply! This actually is my day job (not XNA, but 3D graphics), so I'll try to offer what insight I can, hopefully it's helpful! Please bear in mind my XNA is a few years old.

Prerendered is easier for several reasons. First of all, all of the models are in different formats, but the modeling software understands them all. If I were to go true 3D, they would all have to be converted to .X model format to be acceptable in the content pipeline. That can translate (pun unintended) into a ton of work.

This is true by default, but extending the content pipeline is not only easy, I think it's quite valuable in creating an XNA game. Things get tougher if you want skeletal animation, but if you want static backgrounds (with perhaps some home rolled lightweight animations consisting of model-wide key framed animations) OBJ files are the way to go. Their format is stupid easy, I'm sure tons of OBJ model importers exist for XNA.

If you want to use skeletal animation, I've got to be honest: I think 1 time I managed to get an animated .X model in. That was using Blender, several versions ago. I've had better luck with Collada. I think if I were to do things again in XNA, I'd probably look at writing a model importer using something like assimp.

Also, many of them would need decimation, as most of my models are rather high-poly.

Not to continue to harp on the value of writing an importer, but your importer could handle this. Split it into an octree, be done with it. You won't pay the price at load time, that shits already saved. You do pay the price at compile time, but only if the asset changes.

Plus, prerendered is really just a case of putting together a few layers of image fragments... writing a game engine in this style is ridiculously easy. I would have to write my own 3D world handler if I went true 3D, and that's quite a time sink.

I can't argue against that! At the heart of it, either would be pretty easy with simple ray cast/bounding volume collision detection, though prerendered you can cheat a lot.

And yes, everything in prerendered would be sprites, and of course I have sprite scaling for depth... of course that's intrinsic to 3D, so it's not an issue for either methods.

Yep! Billboards!

A prerendered scene will use anywhere from about 150k to upwards of 400k triangles per scene. I am not sure if there are any systems available today that can process 400k triangles 60 times per second. Obviously you don't show them all at once, but using all those high-poly models would really be ridiculous in realtime. Decimation takes time too, if you want good results.

Well, I'll admit I haven't looked at 360 hardware for a while, but 400K triangles transformed and textured should be easy. I've gotten away with well over a million polys per frame before. Batch as much as possible (limit draw calls, this hurts CPU performance) and watch your shader complexity. Honestly being bound by vertex shaders hasn't been a problem for me. The problem has been pixel shader performance. If you aren't doing anything complicated, this can be very fast. Using a texture + lightmap + maybe a few dynamic lights is very fast. If you throw in some shadow map variation and a bunch of crazy procedural texturing, it can be a bottle neck. If you are going that far though, look at deferred shading.

[OldRover]

XNA hasn't changed much since the 1.0 days, according to most. lol

If you think that 400k triangles should be easy, then it's probably worth looking into. The character models I use can be ridiculously complex, depending on how detailed they end up being. I've got only basic knowledge of doing skeletal animation... just the little stuff I messed around with in Anim8or for a little while.

Once the models are done, they're done... no need for further modification. Good call on the OBJ importing though... that's my preferred format for static models. OBJ/MTL is really easy to use.

Actually though... this information is very important even if I decide to go 2D on this project, since my wife also wants me to port my FPS, Two Lords, to the 360. It originally used a raycaster, but then I converted it for GZDOOM, making full use of its 3D capabilities. It deserves the proper 3D treatment though... just wish the 360 supported a mouse.

Can I hire you? lol

[kakutolives]

at the beginning at the post I thought you were making the game on XDK.
so if you do not mind me asking what are the restrictions that XNA imposes on terms of access to the hardware? sorry I am a bit of a noob here regarding this.

[OldRover]

I've not seen any kind of limitations on hardware access. The limitations thus far on XNA, as far as I can tell, are that you have to use C#, and you are limited to 2GB in space... neither of these limitations are a big deal for me.

[JoshTurboTrollX]

I say u work on the 2D game, add some good comedy and even some good voice acting  , and you could really have something here!

[soop]

I like 2D.  All my favorite RPGs are 2D.

[Bernie]

I like 2D.  All my favorite RPGs are 2D.

This.. 

[OldRover]

Keeping it 2D has several immediate advantages... to start off with, I already have the resources. I have TheInquisitor's tilework, and character sprites by Sithjester and Akana Yukinai. I can do battle scenes in 2.5D style using the original plan I had for the whole game... it shouldn't break continuity, and it means that I can just focus on battle graphics in the character modeler. It'll also keep me way under the 2GB size limit... all that extra space can be used to add voiceovers.

I reckon I'll keep it 2D.

Now... battle presentation... the original prototypes of this game used a front-to-back format, similar to the Phantasy Star series. However, I was thinking of switching to side-view, with a presentation style similar to Final Fantasy 7... the game already uses a whole mess of concepts from that game, so why not. I think this way is more familiar to RPG players, especially those raised on the classics. I did think of going Lunar-style, but... meh... that gets tedious after awhile. I'd thought about doing it side-view from the start, but figured that it might interfere with combined attacks and merges... but then I saw FF9 which pulled it off just fine, so it's all good.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I've not seen any kind of limitations on hardware access. The limitations thus far on XNA, as far as I can tell, are that you have to use C#, and you are limited to 2GB in space... neither of these limitations are a big deal for me.

There are some limits and layers of abstraction (obviously), and you don't get the same range of freedom and excitement you'd get with the real C++ dev kit.

You also don't get any of the headaches from having to do alot of shit from scratch that XNA gives you.

[Sadler]

XNA hasn't changed much since the 1.0 days, according to most. lol

If you think that 400k triangles should be easy, then it's probably worth looking into. The character models I use can be ridiculously complex, depending on how detailed they end up being. I've got only basic knowledge of doing skeletal animation... just the little stuff I messed around with in Anim8or for a little while.

Well, character models can be a different ball game. At work our character models are roughly 5K triangles, but we're pretty old school here. I think 10-20K might be more common. Again though, it's really a matter of how complicated your shaders are. This is both good and bad, you can simulate a ton of detail using normal and parallax maps (applies to level geometry as well), but you do pay a price. I think most artist today use something like zbrush to create a stupidly high detail model (10's or 100's of millions of polys), then reduce it down to something reasonable and store the lost detail in normal/parallax/displacement/whatever maps.

Actually though... this information is very important even if I decide to go 2D on this project, since my wife also wants me to port my FPS, Two Lords, to the 360. It originally used a raycaster, but then I converted it for GZDOOM, making full use of its 3D capabilities. It deserves the proper 3D treatment though... just wish the 360 supported a mouse.

Can I hire you? lol

Two Lords? Link? Anyway, I'm more than happy to help you where I can, but be warned I can be pretty flaky.

[Sadler]

at the beginning at the post I thought you were making the game on XDK.
so if you do not mind me asking what are the restrictions that XNA imposes on terms of access to the hardware? sorry I am a bit of a noob here regarding this.

The 360 has hardware tessellation that I don't think is exposed in XNA.

[OldRover]

Two Lords? Link? Anyway, I'm more than happy to help you where I can, but be warned I can be pretty flaky.

Original version:
http://www.nodtveidt.net/projects/twolords/

GZDOOM remake:
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/wads-mods/56412-new-screenies-of-two-lords-my-heretic-tc/

Neither were finished, and only the original version ever had a test release... the GZDOOM remake has never been released to the public.

[soop]

I like the viewpoint from the first 2 Golden Sun games.  But if I could choose how you spend your time, I'd say moar tutorials!!

[OldRover]

I'll get to the remainder of the tutorials when I don't have to be concerned about a certain wife bugging me to push Eponasoft's commercial ventures forward.

[OldRover]

OK... based on all the opinions thus far across three forums, I've decided to go with a 2D "map view" and either a 2.5D or 3D "battle view". Straight-up 2.5D is just gonna be too much work but I can get away with it for combat scenes, since they are not quite as detailed.

I have to have a working prototype by the end of June to satisfy da boss... so once I have that up and running, I can finish my tutorial series on obeybrew.

[RegalSin]

I would work, on a PSX level, and used pre-rendered objects, as with the Resident Evil ( filame thrower, and fire ) and the Paper, or globe backdrops ). Only use 3d if needed. There is too many examples.

About 2.5d. Their is no such thing. 2.5, just means using 3d, and giving it the 2d look. Like strider 2, Arcade. It is a type of look, to mix characters. If so then pre-rendered joy, like on the Saturn.

Finally you mention full 3d. Full 3d is a joke now to everybody and anybody. Their are tons of free 3d programs, with interchangable,
parts. Considering how easy it is for people to get expensive 3d programs, this should not be a problem. Especially in todays world.
I like many other people have 3d projects, we want to work on. I even had an idea for a MMORPG,

Right now their is no limit in videogames, today. You just need to make something and get noticed. Look at crappy angry birds, they were out in the early iphone years, and now every moron probably paid for it. If fricken angry birds can fly then why not a flow-blown MMORPG, or any other kind of game, in any other kind of dimension.

X-box ( yes the original X-box ) is looking real good, with tons of tutorials, and unfinished, projects waiting to get published. So I say follow your heart, on whatever you want to make.

[Digi.k]

OP will you be able to produce anything like Dust an Elysian Tale ??

I am sooo shocked that .. that is all done by one guy.. but it's taken him years to get to get the game to it's final stage but it's nearly finished.

interview

official trailer

but anyway whatever direction you take good luck

[fraggore]

go for 2d good old school look

[OldRover]

OP will you be able to produce anything like Dust an Elysian Tale ??

Sure, though that's not the style I'm going for...

[soop]

well, if there's anything I can do to help, PM me.  I doubt there will be, but you never know!