Neo Geo vs Super CD

[slinkyturd]

Anyone played any of the Neo Geo games that got ported to as CDs for the Duo? I'm wondering how they stack up when compared.

These:
Art of Fighting
Fatal Fury 2
Fatal Fury Special
World Heroes 2

[NightWolve]

I liked Fatal Fury Special once upon a time. I didn't have any problems when messing with the Arcade SCD, pretty decent port, about it, but that was only via emulation. I believe I started playing this at the arcades which were just NeoGeo boxes that operated the same hardware as the home console if I'm not mistaken. Anyway, what would you expect ? They're better on what they were originally developed on or closer to, NeoGeo.

[slinkyturd]

I was hoping for a technical analysis more so than the obvious answer.

[esteban]

I was hoping for a technical analysis more so than the obvious answer.

We have old threads where folks (like Mr. Helgeson/Professor²son/PCEngineHell) who have extensive experience playing Neogeo, PCE, etc. versions share their observations.

I'm sorry I don't have any links...

[PukeSter]

PC Engine FFS is easier. 6 buttons means no pressing buttons together, and I couldn't even beat Krauser on NeoGeo CD. Soundtracks are different too (same songs, diff arrangements).

[Nazi NecroPhile]

They're inferior, but what else do you expect?  The NeoGeo is substantially more capable and the games were designed specifically for the NeoGeo's capabilities, so a port to any other 16 bit system is going to be something less.  That said, they're easily the best 16 bit ports, taking a big fat dump all over the SNES and Genny ports.

[geise]

Yeah I own all the Neo Arcade Card games plus the actual Neo MVS versions.  I would say the pc-e are the best home console ports from the 16-bit era, but yeah it's not as good as the Neo. Still worth owning if you don't have them on an actual Neo, or 12,000 other Neo compilation discs released over the last decade.

[Medic_wheat]

They're inferior, but what else do you expect?  The NeoGeo is substantially more capable and the games were designed specifically for the NeoGeo's capabilities, so a port to any other 16 bit system is going to be something less.  That said, they're easily the best 16 bit ports, taking a big fat dump all over the SNES and Genny ports.

Pretty much. 



It is RARE to find a port of an arcade game to be superior to the original.


Although there have been occasions.  Cleaner sprit work added game play added levels or added characters sometimes even corrections to bugs and flaws in the original arcade game.



I fail to think of examples.  On.  Any system not PCE exclusively.

[JoshTurboTrollX]

The ACD ports of neo games take a slight step back graphically, but a leap forward in the audio department.

What do you crave more?  Pretty graphics or brilliant music?

PCE > NEO

[CrackTiger]

Quest of Jongmaster is very close. Some scenes PCE is higher res, some the Neo Geo is higher. The cinematic graphics look 1:1 even with the resolution change, like games such as Monster Lair.

PCE Fatal Furys push more animation than the Neo Geo versions, which use scaling for the second plane.


Medic wheat: Sidearms for PCE has more parallax, more shading on the title and better sound on HuCard and CD. It may have lost 2 player gameplay, but the CD version makes up for it with Beyond Christ.

Zipang < Solomon's Key

[EvilEvoIX]

There was a good thread about SNK ports on the MD/SNES/PCE and the discussion about the 32X being capable or not as well.  Very interesting read....

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?28804-SNK-32x-Ports

Here is what I thought was a good post on the ports.

@Da_Shocker : While very good in some areas all PC Engine ports of SNK games have a lot of flaws / problems :
- World Heroes 2 : lacks all the parallax & as a result not only looks bland overall but even dumb in some instances like here :

compared to the original :

Also the lower-res + added black bar for the HUD don't help.

- Fatal Fury 2 & Special : both very good but same as with World Heroes 2 they lack the parallax & run in lower-res with an added black bar for the HUD. & what about those 8 bit music between each rounds? :s

- Art Of Fighting on PC Engine may looks good on pix but in action it's another story mainly due to the horrendous way to fake what was initially real zoom. Also & here too the game runs in lower-res + with an added black bar for the HUD. & though the sprites look good the backgrounds are rather poor overall. The Genesis port may not have the zoom but on other hand it adds parallax + line-scrolling for the floor (Both effects exclusive to this port) & runs in high-res + without an added black bar = same as the Neo Geo original.

Yeah even running with the PC Engine + its CD add-on + the Arcade Card some PCE games aren't as good or just not better overall as their Mega Drive / Genesis counterparts (i.e. without Mega-CD or whatever else) like Fatal Fury 2 which is a better deal overall on Mega Drive since it has the parallax + homogeneous quality music rather than swapping from great to awful renditions + the 4 bosses playable (& also some new combo possibilities) & also Strider which is overall a great port on Mega Drive & a weak one on PC Engine Arcade Card CD.


As for the topic, one thing comes to mind is that most if not all Neo Geo Vs. Fighting with zoom don't have parallax but Cyber Brawl (Cosmic Carnage) on 32X has both huge zoom & parallax so i wonder if, for example, a 32X port of Samurai Shodown could have kept the zoom while adding some parallax... ?
But indeed some 32X ports of SNK games would have turned out great & they could have also use, like graffias79 started to talk about, the Mega-CD for improving even more in some respects.

[CrackTiger]

"8-bit musics"

"Art of Fighting on PC Engine runs in low res and the zoom effect is horrendous"

"FF2 is better on MD because it has the playable bosses that FFS has on PCE anyway"

These are good posts?

Most of that is from someone who passionately hates the PCE and is doing comparisons just to change his imagined public perception with the PCE getting too much respect. It's not enough for competing consoles to be also good, they must be inferior.

Here's another "good post" about Aeroblasters:

There is people who love the sound of the pc-engine and I certainly am not one of those.
The sound is horrible, the sound effects the same, the sound guided missile is very funny and makes you want to laugh.
The musics also were not good, they look like a bland and simplified version of the original.
The only cool song for me is the second stage that was redone for this version and so managed to do something good and optimized for the system that is was pretty cool.

[EvilEvoIX]

yeah a lot of skewed views out there.  IDK what to tell you but I play the Neo Geo Versions Either AES and MVS.  I would love an arcade card just to see how the PCE did in comparison.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

I would love an arcade card just to see how the PCE did in comparison. 

So you've never seen 'em yourself but felt it was your duty to say the Genny is better? 

[EvilEvoIX]

I would love an arcade card just to see how the PCE did in comparison. 

So you've never seen 'em yourself but felt it was your duty to say the Genny is better? 

First of all I simply quoted what was being said on the OTHER SIDE, you see different people have, and this is crazy and I know it, different opinions.  Second I never, not once, not even implied, that the Genny was better.  The narrative in your head said that and you've attached it to me.

My duty?  As in what add to the conversation?  Perhaps, my opinion is that play the Neo Geo variants or one of the million PS2/PS1/Saturn/Dreamcast/XBOX/ETC variants that are far superior.  They are also MUCH cheaper to get ($5 at Five Below and I got a stack of SNK games for the PS2) and basically arcade perfect minus tiny load times.

Have I played the PCE Version?  Does Emulation count?  Then yes I have via my laptop and a Hard Wired Xbox 360 controller.   It's not exact but is extremely easy to test out for yourself.  I sure would love to see it work on my Duo R and my CRT TV with scan lines as it should have been vs being emulated on my Laptop.  I have all the MD versions and they are fun enough but I really just pull out the old AES and play these games when the feeling should arise. 

My personal opinion?  Do I feel that the PCE versions are the end all be all?  No, but they are fun in their own right.  I feel the opinion I quoted was from someone who had a solid opinion and pointed out what he liked and didn't.  Nothing more, nothing less.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

First off, you did more than post another's opinion; by saying that they were "good posts", you were agreeing with his assessment.  And secondly, nobody here gives a fuck what some random, jaded fanboy thinks.

[EvilEvoIX]

First off, you did more than post another's opinion; by saying that they were "good posts", you were agreeing with his assessment.  And secondly, nobody here gives a fuck what some random, jaded fanboy thinks.

I think you are reading WAY into these things especially my posts but I will leave you with this.  There is Freedom of Speech, which is what we have here.  Call me what you will and enjoy what I type or dismiss it.  What we don't have is Freedom From Speech, which is when someone says something you don't like and you wish to have it removed or stricken or what have you.  Yes I said his posts were good and they posted a conflicting opinion.  Somebody may learn from it, someone may get upset but I am glad it is there.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

I think you are reading WAY into these things especially my posts but I will leave you with this.

That sounds an awful lot like yourself.  You're running off at the mouth that I'm trying to quash dissenting opinions, but how can that be when I didn't even say the guy was wrong?!?  I was questioning why post random shit as fact when you seemingly had zero first hand experience, nothing more.

I'll stand by my assertion that nobody gives a fuck about a one sided argument from a discussion about the 32X's capabilities.

There is Freedom of Speech, which is what we have here.

Agreed, which is why I'm free to call you out for your ignorant fanboyism.

[EvilEvoIX]

I think you are reading WAY into these things especially my posts but I will leave you with this.

That sounds an awful lot like yourself.  You're running off at the mouth that I'm trying to quash dissenting opinions, but how can that be when I didn't even say the guy was wrong?!?  I was questioning why post random shit as fact when you seemingly had zero first hand experience, nothing more.

I'll stand by my assertion that nobody gives a fuck about a one sided argument from a discussion about the 32X's capabilities.

There is Freedom of Speech, which is what we have here.

Agreed, which is why I'm free to call you out for your ignorant fanboyism.

Running off at the mouth?  My God man.  It's just a thread on SNK ports.  I posted an opinion I just read.  That's it.  No need to jump to anger so quickly. 

Fanboyism?  You desperately need things to fit a certain narrative to vent your anger.  It's painfully obvious.  My point, again, was to post some opinions, and my personal opinion is to play the SNK Originals or the many contemporary ports that have superior grafx to anything released at the time save for the SNK originals.  There is no argument to be had so please look elsewhere.

[esteban]

Q: Haven't we seen this debate before. I mean, from the same authors (perhaps even the same posts?).

Anyway. Deja vu.

[CrackTiger]

I would love an arcade card just to see how the PCE did in comparison. 

So you've never seen 'em yourself but felt it was your duty to say the Genny is better? 

Yet, here are some even better posts about SNK ports on PCE:

I honestly wouldn't bother with the Ports,  they don't have the control or the balance or the gameplay needed to be decent ports.

1987 8bit hardware designed to fit a small console, with 2 megs of RAM added to it (and CD storage), vs 1990 arcade hardware with access to monstrous cartridges:





It's all about the space.

This is an amazing port indeed, no question.  But then you give up the following still:

• Only 60 Sprites on Screen Max
• Less color
• Way less animation
• Sound FX take a huge hit however the music I assume is Arcade Perfect as it is CD
• All that Extra Harware needed just to run it at the time would have been as much if not more than an actual AES
• Loading times
• Smaller Sprites

However your point is taken as the space makes this possible on the PCE and obviously it's overachieving 8-Bit CPU .  The Neo Geo was built on having a stupid amount of space and whatever it can't do with hardware tricks it simply animates which is the point really.  It plays to it's strength's and if you take them away your left with a shell duh.  To even achieve some of these grafx on other consoles needed a slew of hardware upgrades and massive CD storage and even then the differences are glaring.  The point is the Neo Geo had these strengths and no amount of Ram adapters, 32X adapters, or SNES FX chips would bring you a Metal Slug 3 or a SSIV without serious cuts everywhere.  My guess is that the Neo's greatest strength the amount of sprites it can show on screen (It doesn't even use backgrounds it just connects sprites!!! It has well over 300 on screen which kills ANYTHING at the time, it wasn't even close) followed by the amount of animation it can store to add detail.  Everything else is mute as these were the assets needed to make stellar arcade games and having a 14 year run cements this setup as a complete success.  Even if you cut a game to 16MEGS you have something like Gunstar Heroes with a HELLUVA lot more shit on screen, better music, less slowdown, way way way more color, and a serious amount of parallax.  It's a powerful system.  The SNES could eeeek out Mode 7 stuff where the Neo really can't that is a decided advantage.

[TR0N]

I'll just leave this here 

Let's Compare (Fatal Fury 2 & Fatal Fury Special)

[NightWolve]

UH OH, BUT THIS ISN'T A FREE SPEECH ZONE!

Ha, found an opportunity to reuse your work, huh ? Well played sir.

[ClodBusted]

Joe, is that you?

[EvilEvoIX]

Joe, is that you?

It's always a good sign of an artist's work when you have to explain it over and over again after each shoehorned attempt to insert it somewhere.  At least draw another one that is better or find some one with talent to draw one, but yeah I doubt you'll get the reaction you are desperately seeking.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

He's a bit harder to recognize with the wing the cropped out.

[esteban]

For the record: I like that EvilEvolX is a good sport about everything.

Welcome back, Evo.

[EvilEvoIX]

Well it's nice to have fans.  I don't think I've had any before nor has anyone given me so much attention.  This man is clearly obsessed and I like.

[EvilEvoIX]

He's a bit harder to recognize with the wing the cropped out.

I'll say, and my vaginal bulge is no where near that pronounced or as meatily delicious.  It's actually quite high and tight like a fresh clam that hasn't been shucked; nothing to write home about for sure.  Also inaccurate is the "Regional hair" bursting from the area which is quite a forgivable mistake based upon my facial/body hair.  I 've had laser removal treatments for sometime now so I have been supporting the "Jonbenet Ramsey" for about 5 years so far..  No mess, no fuss, always ready for a bathing suit.  Also finally; the gentleman putting me in a headlock looks nothing like my boyfriend, maybe an old ex from college but those roided up messes never worked out no matter how good they looked.

[NightWolve]

......

[esteban]

......

Indeed.

[Psycho Punch]

I'll say, and my vaginal bulge is no where near that pronounced or as meatily delicious.  It's actually quite high and tight like a fresh clam that hasn't been shucked; nothing to write home about for sure.  Also inaccurate is the "Regional hair" bursting from the area which is quite a forgivable mistake based upon my facial/body hair.  I 've had laser removal treatments for sometime now so I have been supporting the "Jonbenet Ramsey" for about 5 years so far..  No mess, no fuss, always ready for a bathing suit.  Also finally; the gentleman putting me in a headlock looks nothing like my boyfriend, maybe an old ex from college but those roided up messes never worked out no matter how good they looked. 

Same.

[WoodyXP]

Anyone played any of the Neo Geo games that got ported to as CDs for the Duo?

Yes, I have.

I'm wondering how they stack up when compared.

The Neo Geo shits all over the PCE Ports.  But don't let that deter you as the PCE ports are great games in their own right.  Emulate them and see for yourself.

[EvilEvoIX]

Anyone played any of the Neo Geo games that got ported to as CDs for the Duo?

Yes, I have.

I'm wondering how they stack up when compared.

The Neo Geo shits all over the PCE Ports.  But don't let that deter you as the PCE ports are great games in their own right.  Emulate them and see for yourself.

I have to agree.  The issue with many still pics is that people take that as the standard and it must be comparable.  They are not.  The Neo Moves these games so much faster and effortlessly.  THE PCE gives a good effort but side by side is glaring.

[PCEngineHell]

There was a good thread about SNK ports on the MD/SNES/PCE and the discussion about the 32X being capable or not as well.  Very interesting read....

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?28804-SNK-32x-Ports

Here is what I thought was a good post on the ports.

@Da_Shocker : While very good in some areas all PC Engine ports of SNK games have a lot of flaws / problems :
- World Heroes 2 : lacks all the parallax & as a result not only looks bland overall but even dumb in some instances like here :

compared to the original :

Also the lower-res + added black bar for the HUD don't help.

- Fatal Fury 2 & Special : both very good but same as with World Heroes 2 they lack the parallax & run in lower-res with an added black bar for the HUD. & what about those 8 bit music between each rounds? :s

- Art Of Fighting on PC Engine may looks good on pix but in action it's another story mainly due to the horrendous way to fake what was initially real zoom. Also & here too the game runs in lower-res + with an added black bar for the HUD. & though the sprites look good the backgrounds are rather poor overall. The Genesis port may not have the zoom but on other hand it adds parallax + line-scrolling for the floor (Both effects exclusive to this port) & runs in high-res + without an added black bar = same as the Neo Geo original.

Yeah even running with the PC Engine + its CD add-on + the Arcade Card some PCE games aren't as good or just not better overall as their Mega Drive / Genesis counterparts (i.e. without Mega-CD or whatever else) like Fatal Fury 2 which is a better deal overall on Mega Drive since it has the parallax + homogeneous quality music rather than swapping from great to awful renditions + the 4 bosses playable (& also some new combo possibilities) & also Strider which is overall a great port on Mega Drive & a weak one on PC Engine Arcade Card CD.


As for the topic, one thing comes to mind is that most if not all Neo Geo Vs. Fighting with zoom don't have parallax but Cyber Brawl (Cosmic Carnage) on 32X has both huge zoom & parallax so i wonder if, for example, a 32X port of Samurai Shodown could have kept the zoom while adding some parallax... ?
But indeed some 32X ports of SNK games would have turned out great & they could have also use, like graffias79 started to talk about, the Mega-CD for improving even more in some respects.

Dumbest shit I have ever seen regurgitated from Sega 16. Outside of that, basically its like this concerning the 16-bit Neo ports (including games not ported over to PCE-Arcade Card CD).

 NeoGeo>PCE Arcade Card CD>Snes>Genesis/Sega CD.

I could go into all sorts of reasons as to why, but basically it amounts to how faithful the ports try to be, how true to the original source, and Takara and JVC took a bit too many liberties with the Genesis & Sega CD ports concerning game play (and Sega themselves totally fucked the World Heroes 1 and AOF Genesis ports), and too much content was edited out of things like the background stages, character selection, story scenes, or animation.

You couple in that with the lower sound quality, and those Sega ports tend to hurt more. Doesn't mean they are all terrible, because they are good games in their own right (outside of World Heroes and AOF), but like I said, the key thing here is which were the more faithful, and the Sega ports come dead last in that department.

Some key issues worth mentioning:

Genesis port of Fatal Fury 1 is missing Billy Kane and Hwa Jai, and some animation frames were cut which makes the characters seem more stiff.

Genesis port of Fatal Fury 2 is missing a decent amount of background details, music is meh, sound samples again are meh (the music issue really hurts on Kim Kaphwan and Rugal's stage ).

Genesis port of World Heroes is missing animation, has bad controls and timing issues, and if I remember right cant even be bothered to announce the start of the match outside of making a ding sound or something.

Genesis port of Samurai Shodown is missing the intro scene, and artwork from other story scenes. Actual attacks are also missing from the gameplay, which screws with things. Music is not bad, but not as good as Snes, and sound fx and voices are ok. Earthquake is also a no show.

Also, and this is a issue that is only present it seems when you run the port on legit hardware. There are some stray stuck pixels on screen, kinda like when a Nes game had glitchy graphics from a bad connection. This is a issue with all the carts. I have tried over 20 of them and they all had the same issue, no matter the cart or Genesis model.

Genesis port of Art of Fighting is missing attacks, the story intro scene is trashed, zoom mode gone, has sub par voice samples and sound fx, and music is.....meh, etc.  Also, there is a discrepancy between the difficulty between the Mega Drive and Genesis releases. Google is your friend if you want to know more concerning this.

Sega Cd port of Fatal Fury Special has a ton of missing animation and missing background details in stages. Also, the game is plagued with slowdown at times. Music tracks sound at times like they were pulled from a AES with RCA cables and not cleaned up.

Sega Cd port of Samurai Shodown is missing Earthquake, and the ref is also edited out. Also, final stage battle with Amakusa has a issue with the pressed disc that will cause the system to not loop the music track during the first round. This will cause the cd drive to shut down and music to stop. This will also cause an issue with you being able to fight Amakusa when the background graphics need to change.

The fix is to open the lid door and shut it again. That will reactivate the drive. A better fix is to install a door switch, but most wont bother with that. Also note this bug affects Fatal Fury Special on the character select screen. Let the music keep playing till the end and it wont loop, and after that the first fight cant load unless you trigger the door switch again.

Again, not saying PCE and Snes ports are perfect, because they are not. But they do stay as true as possible to the original content at least, and when it concerns ports, that is usually the most important aspect of it all.

[esteban]

The Prof has spoken. DAMN.



Happy HOLIDAZE, Prof.

[GohanX]

I've only played the AoF pce port, and as a big aof fan the port is pretty great. Inferior to the neo versions a bit in graphics, but it plays right, and I don't really feel like I'm missing anything like is often the case with ports.

[PCEngineHell]

The Prof has spoken. DAMN.



Happy HOLIDAZE, Prof.

No prob, and happy holidays to you all too.

[PCEngineHell]

Oh yeah, thought I'd throw this little tidbit out there. SFC Samurai Spirits has orange juice blood. Snes has red blood, but not same shade of red as NEO.

/samuraishowdownsnes1.png

Granted, neither have the fatalities, but still, that orange bit on the SFC version is pretty lame.