PCE hardware development and funding

[spenoza]

Hey, I wonder if Kickstarter (and a "Getting the word out" campaign) would be a good way to get funding and support to develop hardware for the PCE. Some ideas for projects might include memory mappers for larger HuCards, HuCard or expansion-port based upgrades via auxiliary chips (co-processors or even memory enhancements), or even a new system card. If a chip designer and low unit count manufacturer can be found it might be a good idea. Kickstarter supporters aren't charged for their support until the project meets the funding goal, so a realistic funding goal is critical (meaning if you're being optimistic with your numbers your goal is not realistic).

[roflmao]

I've spent a fair amount of time looking into Kickstarter and a couple other croudsourcing websites lately for a personal project.  At first I was all hung ho about using Kickstarter, but now I think I'm leaning more towards using Indiegogo.com.  What I like about them is that if you don't reach your goal, you still get what people have pledged (though they take a larger cut).  If you *do* meet your goal, they actually take a little bit less than Kickstarter.

Anyway, I think it's a good idea.  I'd likely throw some funds that direction, though I'm a little strapped at the moment.  With Christmas looming I don't know if this would be the best time to look for funding for a project, but it can't hurt to try!

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Interesting idea, but I can't think of many hardware projects that are worth the effort.  The only thing I'd really get excited about is a PCE-on-a-chip type project and making clones with SGX support and cheap, reliable disc drives; the other stuff would just be trying to turn the Turbob into something it ain't.

[thesteve]

i think we may not have quite enough info for a proper system on chip.
however a proper SCSI interface for the cd rom would be great (would need most of the IFU function in it)

[spenoza]

I've spent a fair amount of time looking into Kickstarter and a couple other croudsourcing websites lately for a personal project.  At first I was all hung ho about using Kickstarter, but now I think I'm leaning more towards using Indiegogo.com.  What I like about them is that if you don't reach your goal, you still get what people have pledged (though they take a larger cut).  If you *do* meet your goal, they actually take a little bit less than Kickstarter.

See, I LIKE that Kickstarter doesn't take folks money unless the goal is made. If you take money even though you haven't hit your goal there's a much greater chance the folks who pledged aren't going to get anything back at all, because the funding just isn't in place to make what needs to happen possible. Now, with any of these sites, it's not like people are going to just come crawling out of the woodwork to throw money at projects, but with some spreading of the word, reasonable goals (technical knowledge achieved or almost achieved, for example with only the sunk costs of circuit mask design and such remaining), and conservative financial estimates, you never know.

And me talking about this doesn't mean we should do it now, but it DOES mean that we shouldn't automatically reject hardware-related ideas just because they are harder.

Yes NecroPhile, I think a POAC would be a good goal, assuming we can collect more info. It might not take much to step up from a POAC to a SGOAC. Hell, I'd love to see a modern CD expansion, too. There are so many cheap IDE drives out there, there's got to be a way to hack a cheaper expansion deck that's more reliable. Even a ghetto Turbo Booster Pro for PCE would be great.

Pie in the sky would be a cloned Arcade Card Pro and an add-on for the expansion port that would allow CD images to be used from flash card. The chips on the add-on would take a standard ISO with WAV files or something and mount it virtually in a slow flash RAM pool and make sure the CD-ROM calls over the expansion port are properly mapped and directed.

You know what? None of this is, right now, reasonable, but electronics manufacturing is now a commodity. How heavily customized were the various HuC6xxx chips? Was there a lot of custom firmware or just a few expansions on existing chip design? The base 65C02 architecture is so well known by now that it should be trivial for someone in circuit design who's familiar with the 6502 family to add in whatever is needed, assuming we can know for sure what is needed. Has anyone tried using a programmable FPGA like the Alterra line to mimic the chip? I know the Alterra stuff's a bit pricey to use in devices intended to be resold, but for personal experimentation and design the stuff is priced pretty well. That said, I'm not familiar enough with this filed to know if a programmable FPGA would be appropriate to try and mimic and map such an older chip architecture.

[Arkhan Asylum]

http://www.torlus.com/index.php?2011/04/12/238-pc-engine-in-a-fpga-update   

where you guys been?  This stuff was posted here before, lol.

[spenoza]

The key, however, is translating the results, the knowledge learned, into something that can be distributed at reasonable cost. The software that helps generate FPGA configurations should also be able to help output diagrams that could ultimately be used to create a POAC.

[spenoza]

OK, so back closer to the topic as I proposed it, there seems to be interest in a PCE clone ala PCE-on-a-chip. Someone's already doing stuff with an FPGA, but who knows how that will come out. I'm all for a CD alternative that's more reliable and more affordable than current CD units. I would like to see if we could develop, either via the expansion port or the hucard slot, an upgrade that would allow a PCE to operate as an SGX, or a PCE clone that has SGX capabilities.

[Arkhan Asylum]

That's been talked about before.

It honestly would have made sense for that to be done in the first place instead of it being a whole new console.  but it would need a pass through for CD excitement, and then what do you do with duo-owners?

[spenoza]

That's been talked about before.

It honestly would have made sense for that to be done in the first place instead of it being a whole new console.  but it would need a pass through for CD excitement, and then what do you do with duo-owners?

Well, if it were possible via the HuCard slot, Duo owners should be OK. I recall the discussion you mention and there was some uncertainty about whether it was possible via the card slot. If a little sub-board could be developed folks who do mod work could probably offer services to solder it in as an internal upgrade. I don't think a pass-through would be a problem, either.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I don't know if the internal modification would be very feasible, since it would require adding more chips. , and the thing is compact as it is.

[spenoza]

I don't know if the internal modification would be very feasible, since it would require adding more chips. , and the thing is compact as it is.

I'm not familiar with the inside of the Duo, so I don't know how much space there is or isn't. It is possible that an SGX upgrade could be developed as a single-chip solution, in which case it wouldn't take up much space at all. If an entire system can be reduced to a single chip, the extra capabilities over and above that the SGX brought could also be reduced thusly.

[Arkhan Asylum]

There are other things involved besides just the chip though.

I'd be worried that it would be a real tight fit in there.  You have to figure like half the Duo is not allowed to have it near it because of the CD, but I am not familiar with the duo internals either.   Maybe it would fit snugly and nice, but I'm guessing it will be tricky.

Doable, maybe. 

[spenoza]

I'd say getting to the single-chip solution and finding all the solder points to connect it would be harder than trying to fit it into the Duo's case, frankly. Again, hopefully that FPGA work will result in some circuit diagrams that can be useful for other purposes.

[BlueBMW]

You guys give me a schematic, I'll draw up some circuit boards

[spenoza]

Well, you typically use VHDL to program the FPGAs, so if the guy working on it ever gets something complete you should have some VHDL do work with. I may contact him, see what progress he's making.

[Arkhan Asylum]

YOUR FACE IS A SCHEMATIC.

man, that would be kind of awesome if your face was in everyones pcengine.

Start doing it!

[Arkhan Asylum]

Torlus?  He made alot of progress.  I think he might have finished it, lol.   I havent talked to him in a long time since I stopped sitting in the broke ass IRC channel he'd pop into.

[spenoza]

Torlus?  He made alot of progress.  I think he might have finished it, lol.   I havent talked to him in a long time since I stopped sitting in the broke ass IRC channel he'd pop into.

I messaged him on YouTube. He's still got some bugs to work out, but stuff mostly works. The problem is that he's using a 6502 core from a project with some pretty strict limitations on use. In order to get usable schematics we'd need to get him to work with a different 6502 core diagram, one with fewer restrictions

[TurboXray]

I would like to see if we could develop, either via the expansion port or the hucard slot, an upgrade that would allow a PCE to operate as an SGX, or a PCE clone that has SGX capabilities.

The problem is mostly the ram location in the PCE and SGX. On the SGX, they added additional ram on the next 3 banks giving a total of 32k of work ram. On the PCE, it's only 8k of ram (1 bank) but the next three banks are mirrored instead of open bus. There were probably plans for a full 32k work ram on the PCE at one point, but that's just fun speculation. Without opening up the console and directly adding the additional ram or replacement chip, you won't get the upgrade to work via the hucard port because it'll result in a bus conflict.

[spenoza]

Bonknuts, sounds like the next best bet, then, is to push for an SGX clone.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Bonknuts, sounds like the next best bet, then, is to push for an SGX clone.

what is the point of cloning a console with 5 games on it. lol

[lord_cack]

Bonknuts, sounds like the next best bet, then, is to push for an SGX clone.

what is the point of cloning a console with 5 games on it. lol

Hey, but those are five great games     nevermind....

[spenoza]

Bonknuts, sounds like the next best bet, then, is to push for an SGX clone.

what is the point of cloning a console with 5 games on it. lol

When that console is backwards compatible and the circuit cost is probably not significant, why not? It does open a few doors for homebrew development, too, especially if costs for the clone can be kept reasonable. It's not like including SGX compatibility is in any way a functional hindrance.

[BigusSchmuck]

So what you are saying is that a system card that allows you to play super grafx games is impossible? Isn't there a way to perhaps to somehow utilize the arcade card in order to play super grafx games maybe by porting these titles to use the arcade card? Yeah there maybe 5 games, but being able to play Ghouls N Ghosts without having to hunt down a Super Grafx (or run it on a emulator) may be worth it. Just a thought.

[ParanoiaDragon]

The problem there, would be that the Arcade card doesn't include the possibility for a 2nd bg layer, nor does it include more colors(SGC has somewhere around 4000 colors), & I think there's a few other things that I assume would require a cpu in the Arcade card to make SGX game work, it just ain't happening.  A brand new card would be more doable, rather then taking an Arcade card apart & adding stuff to it.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

... nor does it include more colors(SGC has somewhere around 4000 colors)...

No, it has the same palette as a PCE.