Pyramid Plunder Public Beta

[OldMan]

Oh well, I thought this was the new debug screen. 

It is. And it is telling me a few interesting things. I oopsed and forgot to print the level, though
Did you find a pattern to reproduce this?
FYI, I've been saving the screen shots, so I can refer to them

[In case you are really interested. That line at the bottom tells me the problem happens in the 'at home' state.
But what's interesting is none of the flags are set. It appears to be a problem just walking back and forth....
Or I didn't dump the right flag. More work needed, I guess....]

[Vecanti]

Yeah, I can reproduce it pretty easily on level 1-5. Just get a mummy or  two in the home area then I go to the top of the screen and walk up and down over and over on the same 2 squares at the regular walking speed and wait for the mummy to come out of the wall.

[OldMan]

Yeah, I can reproduce it pretty easily on level 1-5

Perfect! I will make sure -I- can do it this weekend. If it works out, the bug should be gone fairly soon

[Arkhan Asylum]

I can do it here too.    Gave it a shot.

[Vecanti]

Here's level 1-4

/10f6g6a.jpg

[Vecanti]

I found one way to freeze it ever single time on level 1-5.  

You have to have one of the things that pauses the mummies.  So as soon as level 1-5 starts, press II to freeze the mummies right away, now go to the right and get the first cross to turn the mummies purple and get that first mummy right there.  Now once the timer runs out it will freeze.  First I thought I had to be running against a wall, but it seems it will freeze no matter what.  

If you keep pressing I to unfreeze the game and then press II again right away (if you still have one of the mummy pause things) then you can freeze the game again.

EDIT:

Same thing on 1-4 and 2-5 so far as well.

[Vecanti]

Here is level 2-5:
/2cz7gr6.jpg

After the pink scorpion came through the wall he got stuck in the empty area

/2encnk9.jpg

[Arkhan Asylum]

Vecanti: Master Bug Hunter

[Vecanti]

Vecanti: Master Bug Hunter

Well, it's actually a pretty fun game and I think it's more that I've spent too many hours playing.   Not a huge Pac Man fan, but I love Ms. PacMan ( I know that makes no sense probably ) and this reminds me a lot of Ms. Pacman on steroids.  With all the "weapons" and the added strategy of just being able to walk fast when needed, this games a gem.

[Keranu]

Yeah the bonus items are coming along nicely so far. I love the run bonus!

[Arkhan Asylum]

Vecanti: Master Bug Hunter

Well, it's actually a pretty fun game and I think it's more that I've spent too many hours playing.   Not a huge Pac Man fan, but I love Ms. PacMan ( I know that makes no sense probably ) and this reminds me a lot of Ms. Pacman on steroids.  With all the "weapons" and the added strategy of just being able to walk fast when needed, this games a gem.

just wait til you hear the rest of the music!

[esteban]

Real Hardware --> SUPERCD+White PCE: I'm playing the older image of Pyramid Plunder + the music from Maniac Pro Wrestling and, surprisingly, they complement each other nicely (subsong 13, as I type this...). No, I'm not joking.

I really think you should consider my earlier suggestions (especially incorporating Moai in the game, by any means necessary...) 

[Arkhan Asylum]

lol.

[spenoza]

OK, finally had some time to sit down and get in some quality play time with Pyramid Plunder. Most of my observations have already been made by others, but I think I have a couple insights which are original.

1) The music is really interesting, though it does get a tad repetitive given how long it takes to clear such large levels.

2) The sound effects are retro AND appropriate. Same for the graphics. Good job!

3) I love the run ability, and I like that you have to stop running to pick anything up. It might be worth making a minor tweak to try and nerf the use of the medium turbo speed to both run AND interact with stuff.

4) The level scrolling is too loose. I can get WAY too close to the edge of the screen before the level scrolls over. This makes it very difficult to know if it is safe to wander into off-screen territory. The mini-map helps, but if you're looking at the mini-map you're not looking at the screen.

5) I find the mini-map most useful to figure out where the enemies are when I get a power pellet and to figure out where the rest of the level is relative to me. It is not as useful in the moment when I'm trying to figure out what's off-screen immediately in the direction I'm headed, in part because that's a little too imminent for me to want to try to switch focus.

6 a) The levels are just too big. The ability to run helps, but when you're doing actual work, picking up pellets, nabbing baddies, and trying to actually grab the power-ups that float on-screen, you have to be walking, so you are inherently slow going about the real business of the game. Between how long it takes to clear the level and the enemy AI, the levels start to drag about 1/3 to 1/2 in. The Pac-man AI works well for small boards, but it gets quite lost on these larger levels

6 b) I like the IDEA of big levels, and I think there can be a place in the game for them, but they're likely to need a bit of reworking. Perhaps a more aggressive AI that is quite different from Pac-man, more off-screen wrap locales, and faster warps. Basically, if there's a way to speed up play on the larger levels, either by ensuring there's a steady stream of power-ups to speed up the characters or warps, wraps, and other shortcuts to zip around the level, then they'll become more interesting and more challenging. I do like some of your big map layouts, and I hope you don't scrap larger maps altogether so much as find a way to make them work a little better, perhaps intermixed with smaller, faster levels.

6 c) Maybe the larger maps could be challenge levels. Have a series of smaller (but still possibly bigger than a single screen, in some cases) maps and then have a huge map as a challenge map. Might be worth playing with the idea of more than 4 enemies, and even a second respawn base, on the bigger maps. That would also let you introduce more AI routines. It could be quite dangerous and cluster-fuck-y, but it could also make for more opportunities to score big points taking down enemies with power pellets. Any changes like these, however, would probably require lots of extra play-testing, so that's a major drawback.

7) The combination of the late level scrolling and the fast movement power-up is almost as dangerous as it is useful. It is great fun as long as you're staying on your current screen, but as soon as you have to move to a new area and scroll the screen, it becomes quite dangerous, because of the small view distance and the high rate of speed. Might be nice to have the run button (as in the button that makes you run, not the Run button) slow you down when you have the speed power-up as a way to give you some finer control back.

Some of the enemies seem very reluctant to leave the enemy base/home. I had one game where one of the baddies spent almost the entire latter half of a level just wandering back and forth in the base and not popping out for me to either flee or kill.

9) Because the levels are so big, currently, it can take the ghosts of the enemies a really long-ass time to get back to the base to respawn.

10) The ghosts are adorable. I love their bouncy locomotion.

11) The little Indiana Jones jingle at the start screen is a cute homage, but it REALLY doesn't mesh well musically with the title theme that immediately follows it.

12) I think your engine is technically sound. Everything looks and sounds good, and everything plays pretty well, at least until the screen scrolls or until I've played half the level and am starting to get a little burned out on the level taking too long to finish.

13) Is there any chance you could/would implement a little bit of a control buffer? Let me see if I can explain what I mean. If I'm walking down a corridor to a T intersection, where I can go either left or right, if I don't push left or right I just stop and run in place. OK, that's cool. If I hit left or right a square early but don't hold it, I also stop. It might be nice if it buffered the last direction press for a few milliseconds/a full map square until it can actually perform the desired direction. That way you could just tap left or right as you get close to the intersection and if your timing isn't perfect you don't just run into the wall and stand there. I tend to prefer tapping the Dpad to holding the Dpad in these constant motion-type games, and if the directional presses aren't buffered just a little, it makes the tapping style of play a little harder vs the holding style, IMO. I realize this is kind of an esoteric complaint, but it was salient for me.

14) It was interesting to try and figure out what the power-ups do. Some of them are more valuable than others, but they do add a nice variety to the game.

I guess I'll post again if I have any other thoughts on the game. So far I'm pretty impressed. I do hope this title continues to mature nicely.

[Arkhan Asylum]

1) The music is really interesting, though it does get a tad repetitive given how long it takes to clear such large levels.

Yeah.  There are more tracks coming to switch it up some.  If the maps get shrunk and become faster to clear, this should be less of an issue.

2) The sound effects are retro AND appropriate. Same for the graphics. Good job!

Damn straight!

3) I love the run ability, and I like that you have to stop running to pick anything up. It might be worth making a minor tweak to try and nerf the use of the medium turbo speed to both run AND interact with stuff.

It's difficult to nerf that.  It's like the spinflip flying in Bonk.  It's up to the player to not be a sissy, I guess. 

4) The level scrolling is too loose. I can get WAY too close to the edge of the screen before the level scrolls over. This makes it very difficult to know if it is safe to wander into off-screen territory. The mini-map helps, but if you're looking at the mini-map you're not looking at the screen.

Anyone else besides Spenoza, and I think TheOldRover agree with this?  I've heard it both ways.  I guess it could be shrunk if enough people think it should be.

6 a) The levels are just too big. The ability to run helps, but when you're doing actual work, picking up pellets, nabbing baddies, and trying to actually grab the power-ups that float on-screen, you have to be walking, so you are inherently slow going about the real business of the game. Between how long it takes to clear the level and the enemy AI, the levels start to drag about 1/3 to 1/2 in. The Pac-man AI works well for small boards, but it gets quite lost on these larger levels

6 b) I like the IDEA of big levels, and I think there can be a place in the game for them, but they're likely to need a bit of reworking. Perhaps a more aggressive AI that is quite different from Pac-man, more off-screen wrap locales, and faster warps. Basically, if there's a way to speed up play on the larger levels, either by ensuring there's a steady stream of power-ups to speed up the characters or warps, wraps, and other shortcuts to zip around the level, then they'll become more interesting and more challenging. I do like some of your big map layouts, and I hope you don't scrap larger maps altogether so much as find a way to make them work a little better, perhaps intermixed with smaller, faster levels.

The big maps were a bit of a gamble, and I couldn't gauge their playability very well while making them.  That's what everyones testing is for .  Alot of stuff that seems good on paper (the map editor) may end up being awful to play.   I looked at a few of the maps and can definitely see how some of them might be fuckin annoying.  What I was thinking about doing was similar to what you see in the scorpion screen from Vecanti. 

Keep the maps big, but make sections that are fully blocked off and pelette-less, so they are mostly just decoration.   I tried to use as much of the maps as possible for pelette grabbing.  That may have been a mistake.

What makes the big maps drawn out is that I've put too many gold bars on all the maps, I think. 

6 c) Maybe the larger maps could be challenge levels. Have a series of smaller (but still possibly bigger than a single screen, in some cases) maps and then have a huge map as a challenge map. Might be worth playing with the idea of more than 4 enemies, and even a second respawn base, on the bigger maps. That would also let you introduce more AI routines. It could be quite dangerous and cluster-fuck-y, but it could also make for more opportunities to score big points taking down enemies with power pellets. Any changes like these, however, would probably require lots of extra play-testing, so that's a major drawback.

I don't know if two houses would be a great idea (would require rewriting the ghost AI significantly, iirc).  What I might do is tweak it so the maps go from little to big with each world.

7) The combination of the late level scrolling and the fast movement power-up is almost as dangerous as it is useful. It is great fun as long as you're staying on your current screen, but as soon as you have to move to a new area and scroll the screen, it becomes quite dangerous, because of the small view distance and the high rate of speed. Might be nice to have the run button (as in the button that makes you run, not the Run button) slow you down when you have the speed power-up as a way to give you some finer control back.

Think of it like the hammer in Donkey Kong.

Some of the enemies seem very reluctant to leave the enemy base/home. I had one game where one of the baddies spent almost the entire latter half of a level just wandering back and forth in the base and not popping out for me to either flee or kill.

9) Because the levels are so big, currently, it can take the ghosts of the enemies a really long-ass time to get back to the base to respawn.

Yeah.  The ghosts are kind of derp.

11) The little Indiana Jones jingle at the start screen is a cute homage, but it REALLY doesn't mesh well musically with the title theme that immediately follows it.

That was the point, lol.

14) It was interesting to try and figure out what the power-ups do. Some of them are more valuable than others, but they do add a nice variety to the game.

They'll be explained in the manual, lol.

There are up to 5 enemies per world. 


So far, key things that need addressed:
---------------------------------------
Make the maps less brutal/tedious
Make the scroll point closer to the character
Make the ghosts less retarded

Yeah?

Fixing the ghost-crash-wall-doom is first though.

[ParanoiaDragon]

4) The level scrolling is too loose. I can get WAY too close to the edge of the screen before the level scrolls over. This makes it very difficult to know if it is safe to wander into off-screen territory. The mini-map helps, but if you're looking at the mini-map you're not looking at the screen.

For me, probably more then anything, this needs to be addressed.  It's like Exile 2, that's not a good thing   My second biggest gripe probably would be the large mazes.  I like the idea of there maybe being smaller mazes, & then a large trickier maze/boss level at the end of each world.

[Arkhan Asylum]

For me, probably more then anything, this needs to be addressed.  It's like Exile 2, that's not a good thing   My second biggest gripe probably would be the large mazes.  I like the idea of there maybe being smaller mazes, & then a large trickier maze/boss level at the end of each world.

Yeah.  The scrolling should probably be tweaked.


As for the maps, I can tone them down and make it so you don't have to get so many bars to win. 

That should make it better.  I hope.

[jlued686]

Finally played it yesterday and really, really love it. Yes, the larger levels are a bit cumbersome; at least for the first few levels when there isn't really much challenge. I could stand to have more enemies on the map to add a bit of intensity, but perhaps that's just me.

Great job, though! Can't wait to play the final version.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Shrinking the maps and making them less retarded should make things more difficult.  These maps are poorly done.  They'd work great for D&D though (thats where my level experience comes from!)

[spenoza]

So far, key things that need addressed:
---------------------------------------
Make the maps less brutal/tedious
Make the scroll point closer to the character
Make the ghosts less retarded

Yeah?

Fixing the ghost-crash-wall-doom is first though.

Jya, das moesly eet.

What are your thoughts on the directional flexibility/buffering issue? I'm just curious to know what you think.

[OldMan]

I found one way to freeze it ever single time on level 1-5.

Okay, that one I can get to work all the time

There is something going wrong in the 'return to home' logic. By the time he hits the home base, he should have a new move ready - but he doesn't. I must have missed something somewhere. Or not updated that logic when I changed over to using a distance map for the homing routine.
I'm looking into it as tomorrows project
Hopefully, I'll have a new build this weekend - but don't hold me to that. Wife has plans for evenings this week, which cuts into my debugging time

..........

I had one game where one of the baddies spent almost the entire latter half of a level just wandering back and forth in the base and not popping out for me to either flee or kill.

Thats related to the bug we are trying to fix. They actually -do- spawn, but immediately return to home base. (ie, they never get completely out of the ghost house)

What are your thoughts on the directional flexibility/buffering issue?

No. Then you could do a bunch of moves, and they would play back, even if you -didn't- want them to.
The movement was carefully crafted to be like pac-man, and it works. If we change it much, you lose the ability to lose the ghosts with quick cornering.

And for everyone complaining about the scroll borders: That's the point of the scrolling! Use the radar to track the ghosts - it is accurate (1 pixel = 1 16x16 tile). It would lose a lot of challenge if you could see the ghosts coming from 5 or 6 tiles away.

[spenoza]

What are your thoughts on the directional flexibility/buffering issue?

No. Then you could do a bunch of moves, and they would play back, even if you -didn't- want them to.
The movement was carefully crafted to be like pac-man, and it works. If we change it much, you lose the ability to lose the ghosts with quick cornering.

I appear to have explained this badly. I don't mean you queue up your moves. What I mean is that within a margin of, say, 3/4 to 1/2 a square of movement, your last directional input that was unable to be completed is implemented when it is possible. This is interruptable. This means as I approach a turn, within 3/4 a pellet (as a unit of space in the game) if I hit the direction early and I can't actually turn that direction yet because I'm still next to a wall, I will turn when I do get to where the open space is. If I change my mind and hit the other direction, as a more recent input, it will trump the waiting turn. That should have no negative effect on quick cornering at all, because your last input is still the priority input. The only time a controller input would be saved for any length of time at all would be if that move cannot be completed, you are within x distance of making that move a valid move, and the move hasn't been pre-empted by another input.

And for everyone complaining about the scroll borders: That's the point of the scrolling! Use the radar to track the ghosts - it is accurate (1 pixel = 1 16x16 tile). It would lose a lot of challenge if you could see the ghosts coming from 5 or 6 tiles away.

This sounds like a rather poor attempt to do fog of war, which it really isn't since you have the minimap. If you are on a corner screen, you can see them coming from quite a distance depending on where you are, meaning the late scrolling seems a bit artificial as an attempt to introduce challenge. I found it far more irritating than I did challenging, and if the enemies had been more aggressive I would probably have found it to be more cheap than anything else.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I say the scrolling should be expanded 3 tiles for now.

Only because, the original Pac Man games didn't scroll L/R. They only went U/D, so you generally had a clear idea of where things were at and could survey the whole screen and move appropriately.   Usually, you can see all or at least half the ghosts on screen while you are playing..

[OldMan]

What I mean is that within a margin of, say, 3/4 to 1/2 a square of movement, your last directional input that was unable to be completed is implemented when it is possible. This is interruptable. This means as I approach a turn, within 3/4 a pellet (as a unit of space in the game) if I hit the direction early and I can't actually turn that direction yet because I'm still next to a wall, I will turn when I do get to where the open space is. If I change my mind and hit the other direction, as a more recent input, it will trump the waiting turn. That should have no negative effect on quick cornering at all, because your last input is still the priority input.

Which actually means you will -always- be able to corner quickly, because your move will not take effect until you can. Pac-man turns require timing to get the most out of them.
It is possible, in both pac-man and pp, to actually turn when you are before or after the center point of the tile. If you turn early, you gain distance on the ghosts. If you turn late, you lose distance. It's all in -when- you turn.

This sounds like a rather poor attempt to do fog of war, which it really isn't since you have the minimap. If you are on a corner screen, you can see them coming from quite a distance depending on where you are, meaning the late scrolling seems a bit artificial as an attempt to introduce challenge.

It's not the late scrolling that introduces the challenge: It's learning to use the map -before- you head into that new, unseen area. That's the whole reason the map exists.

I say the scrolling should be expanded 3 tiles for now.

TO 3 tiles or BY 3 tiles?
If I could have found info on when Ms PacMan scrolls, I woulda used those borders.
How about it? Anyone know how far you have to be from the edge for a Ms PacMan map to scroll?

[Arkhan Asylum]

The screen only scrolls down/up and it scrolls as soon as Ms PacMan cuts the screen in half, basically.

The arcade one didn't scroll.  The screen was tall enough to not need it.

[Keranu]

And for everyone complaining about the scroll borders: That's the point of the scrolling! Use the radar to track the ghosts - it is accurate (1 pixel = 1 16x16 tile). It would lose a lot of challenge if you could see the ghosts coming from 5 or 6 tiles away.

I have to agree with spenoza on this one since I was having the same problem. The map is a nice feature, but it's hard to focus on the single pixel map ghosts while you're constantly running away from them. The scrolling doesn't bother me that much, the "surprise" value is kinda fun... maybe just expand it slightly.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I never have this issue.  Then again I play staring at the radar, lol.

[OldRover]

And for everyone complaining about the scroll borders: That's the point of the scrolling! Use the radar to track the ghosts - it is accurate (1 pixel = 1 16x16 tile). It would lose a lot of challenge if you could see the ghosts coming from 5 or 6 tiles away.

That is what is known as "bullshit difficulty". Challenge created from a technical flaw is not legitimate challenge.

[Arkhan Asylum]

That is what is known as "bullshit difficulty". Challenge created from a technical flaw is not legitimate challenge.

Uhmmmm..bullshit difficulty would be doing this without a radar.  You're given the means to avoid it.  This would be like complaining in Defender that you crash into shit because it scrolled on screen too fast.   Look at the radar and don't fly top speed into the unknown.

Also, it's not a technical flaw. 

Technical flaw would imply we've coded something wrong.  AKA: A bug, like the wall-glitch crashing.  This is us picking an arbitrary value and using it because it seems comfortable during testing.

Not to mention, I just fired the game up again.  It scrolls 2 tiles from the edges.  That gives you plenty of reaction time especially if you're watching the radar.

So, I am going to go out on a limb and call some of you sissies.    You're not supposed to be pro at the game during

BETA TESTING.

also, you guys can handle dodging stuff in Blazing Lazers.  This is 2 tiles.  32 pixels.  With a radar to give you a heads up.  that's pretty decent for reaction-windows.

Just sayin'

[OldMan]

That is what is known as "bullshit difficulty". Challenge created from a technical flaw is not legitimate challenge.

No, that is what is known as a play mechanic. Deliberately chosen values to force the player to split his attention.
I can easily change the scroll border to as many tiles as I like. There is no technical problem there. It's a deliberate decision. Sorry you don't like it.

I just don't understand the whole arguement here. Everyone says the levels are too big and boring. Fine. The first levels -should- be like that, so new players can learn how the game operates. Not everyone is a professional gamer.

Then people are saying the scrolling is too close to the edges. But if I make it 4 or 5 tiles, theres no need for anyone to pay attention to the radar. The same thing applies to smaller levels. Theres a reason the radar is there, and it was a concious decision. Shrink the levels and/or change the scrolling, and there's no need for the radar. Appreciate it for what it is, and learn to use it.
..........................................
So, how far has everyone gotten in it? Anybody make it to 3-1?  4-1?
What's your high scrore ?

[Arkhan Asylum]

To be fair here, the levels don't need "shrinking" so much as they need some more dead-space where you don't have to grab anything.  I covered too much of the surface area of the levels with gold bars, making them completely tedious to deal with.  Some of them you almost walk on every tile for a bar.  It's too tedious.  I don't even like playing them and I made them.


Some dead space and thicker wall regions in some maps should help break up the monotony significantly.

[OldRover]

Well, I gave ya my 2c as an experienced game designer... do with it as you will.

[OldMan]

Well, I gave ya my 2c as an experienced game designer... do with it as you will.

After 20+ years of making games for various systems, and teaching people how to do it, I've learned 2 things:

1) Don't sweat the tweaks until all the bugs are fixed. If you worry about tweaks first, you end up with a neat looking but unplayable game.
2) You can't please everyone. Don't even try. Do what you think is right.

And the mantra I program by, given to me by a college professor way back in 1987:

"Make it work -first-. Then go back and make it nice, if you have the time. No one will use a program that doesn't work, but lots of people will adapt if they like what the program does."

[spenoza]

OK, I'm getting slightly mixed messages from the two of you. We need to know something, here. Is this JUST a release to help find and squash bugs, or is this also an open call for suggestions and improvements? If you are not at all interested in what we think, subjectively, of the game experience, you need to tell us.

OldMan's staunch defense of the narrow scrolling margin is a little dismissive of the concerns I and at least one other have of the impact of that design decision on the gameplay experience. You two are making the game, so it is your call, clearly, but I would encourage you to at least be open-minded about our complaints, unless that's not the kind of feedback you want.

[OldRover]

Old Rover's

You mean OldMan's.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Right now we're looking for bugs.  As in ACTUAL technical issues with the game.  Not "technical flaws" that are nothing of the sort.

There are no new characters being added (Sorry Esteban, lol), and no new glaring gameplay additions like boss battles or challenge stages.   That we plan on, at least.  

We are definitely taking note of concerns people bring up.  I am big on staying involved with the actual people who are going to be throwing money at us for this stuff.  

I agree that the maps are tedious and need fixed up.  I agree the warp speed should be faster.

I also agree that there are polish-elements that need added, and the reason I agree is because, duh, they are going to be added in when the time comes.  Why polish something you're still working on?  I've already got my plans for polish.  It includes new tunes, among some other things.  

One point I disagree with you all on is the scrolling region being too narrow.  In my opinion, 2 tiles (32 pixels) is plenty of reaction time for you to turn around and run away.  Between the radar and the 32 pixel window of opportunity, what more do you want?  How easy do you guys want the game to be, really?   Are you even trying the radar out?  

I watched people play it all day at the CCAG and not a single person complained about the scrolling.  I let people play it who can play Pac Man and Ms. Pac Man for hours without dying.  They did not seem to find any issue with it either. they were more preoccupied with getting acquainted with the radar and messing with powerups.  

Rover openly admitted that he played like 2 levels and shut the game off before voicing all of his criticism.  

I'm pretty sure if the scrolling is expanded to cater to the LCD, the game is going to be too easy, and boring for a different reason than tedious maps.  It'll be a snooze fest because the games too goddamn easy and you can just waltz through it on your first try without dying.

Right now, the scroll-complaint is in the minority.  Show me actual proof that it's cheap and ruins the game, and maybe it will be considered more.  Just because we disagree with one complaint doesn't mean we're not taking note of anything.  

To be blunt, 3 or 4 out of about 80 active commentors so far isn't exactly something I consider a pressing matter.  I'm sure we will experiment with expanding it a bit, but don't hold your breath on it being a top priority.

Map tedium however, is voiced by everyone I've shown the game to.  That's pressing.  It also might make the scrolling complaint less of a complaint for the complainers once we fix it.

Also, contrary to what may be implied by some, this is fuckin' amateur hour.  We're not professional game designers (yet?).  We're not professional anything.  We're a bunch of dorks recreating games we think are fun, and doing it the best we can.  The only experience I have with game design is a Space Invaders clone, Insanity, some RPGs I made, and all of my actual gaming experience (which is pretty extensive).  I'm using my best judgement when it comes to gameplay mechanics, and then, I am gauging the general populous.

No game is flawless, anyway.  The medusa heads and neverending spawns in Castlevania don't stop people from enjoying all of the other parts of the game that make it worth buying and playing.

[spenoza]

Old Rover's

You mean OldMan's.

Yes, my mistake. I'll correct the original post.

[OldMan]

In my opinion, 2 tiles (32 pixels) is plenty of reaction time....

I checked the actual defines. It's 3 tiles (48 pixels). It starts scrolling at the third tile from the edges.
It just seems like 2, because we display partial tiles.
That's easily tweakable, fwiw. Maybe even on a level-by-level basis.

.....staunch defense of the narrow scrolling margin is a little dismissive of the concerns

Not dismissive of actual concerns: dismissive of the results of the choice of the margin. (ie, "bullshit challenge" and "technical flaw"). I gave reasons for why that value was chosen. I still haven't heard any reason why it should be changed, other than it makes the game harder (which was the intent).

[spenoza]

I gave reasons for why that value was chosen. I still haven't heard any reason why it should be changed, other than it makes the game harder (which was the intent).

Not all things that make the game harder are good ways to make the game harder. I never did reach a level where I felt I was in danger of on-screen enemies. I honestly got killed more times misjudging when power pellet would wear off (I could SWEAR what killed me was, several times, still flashing and not back to solid-color yet) than by any aggressive actions on the part of the enemies (never, by the enemies chasing me or cornering me, actually). I was never killed by off-screen enemies, I just found it inconsistent that my view was so limited when moving from one part of the screen to another, but not when I was in a stable area of the screen.

Also, Arkhan, I think you can only assume people have played the beta if they've posted about it. If they're playing it and not saying anything, they aren't part of the pool, and you can't assume that they're just silently happy. They may be equally silently disinterested.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Oh, so it is 3 tiles.  I thought that was what we went with like, 2 years ago.   That's even better!   It does look like 2.  Maybe 2.5.  

Not all things that make the game harder are good ways to make the game harder. I never did reach a level where I felt I was in danger of on-screen enemies. I honestly got killed more times misjudging when power pellet would wear off (I could SWEAR what killed me was, several times, still flashing and not back to solid-color yet) than by any aggressive actions on the part of the enemies (never, by the enemies chasing me or cornering me, actually). I was never killed by off-screen enemies, I just found it inconsistent that my view was so limited when moving from one part of the screen to another, but not when I was in a stable area of the screen.

Some of the lack of enemy aggression is related to the current bug.  I honestly am wondering why you didn't mention the rest of this in favor of the scrolling.  If there is a timing issue with power pellet wear-offs, that is more pressing than the scrolling, isn't it?  lol.

Also, Arkhan, I think you can only assume people have played the beta if they've posted about it. If they're playing it and not saying anything, they aren't part of the pool, and you can't assume that they're just silently happy. They may be equally silently disinterested.

I am not talking about the people on this forum.  I am talking about OTHER people I've shown the game to in person, which includes friends, other developers in other scenes that don't post on PCEFX, and the CCAG. I talked to as many people playing the game as possible and got their feedback.  Not a single person mentioned the scrolling except the small contained group here.

[OldRover]

Well, whatever. I won't voice my opinions anymore.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Well, whatever. I won't voice my opinions anymore.

well, when your opinions are calling things bullshit, referring to things as bugs that you know aren't bugs, and then waving the experienced game designer card around, what do you expect? lol

Just because we disagree with ONE thing you complain about doesn't mean you should get all pee pants that noone cares about your opinion.  It's not like the other shit you griped about wasn't taken note of.  This includes the crappy sprites you dogged on, that we're approved by your sprite artist, and are now being worked on a bit, by your sprite artist.

[CrackTiger]

One point I disagree with you all on is the scrolling region being too narrow.  In my opinion, 2 tiles (32 pixels) is plenty of reaction time for you to turn around and run away.  Between the radar and the 32 pixel window of opportunity, what more do you want?  How easy do you guys want the game to be, really?   Are you even trying the radar out?

I know you said that you don't plan to do any kind of challenge mode, but how about giving people the option of turning the radar off if they want to challenge themselves?

Right now, the scroll-complaint is in the minority.  Show me actual proof that it's cheap and ruins the game, and maybe it will be considered more.  Just because we disagree with one complaint doesn't mean we're not taking note of anything.

I haven't had the time to try the demo yet, but it doesn't sound like the scroll buffer will be an issue for me difficulty wise. I've played many games which felt as though the scroll point was too close to the edge of the screen and it doesn't always affect the difficulty.

But it does affect the feel of a game for me and I dislike the claustrophobia it induces. I get the same feeling from 3D games with terrible draw distances or playing 3D racers in the hood perspective. I'm sure that I'll enjoy the game either way, but I'd personally prefer the difficulty increased in other ways as scroll points are a pet peeve of mine.

[OldRover]

well, when your opinions are calling things bullshit, referring to things as bugs that you know aren't bugs, and then waving the experienced game designer card around, what do you expect? lol

I call it like I see it. And I didn't wave any card around. And if I did, it sure wouldn't be made of aluminum.

[spenoza]

Some of the lack of enemy aggression is related to the current bug.  I honestly am wondering why you didn't mention the rest of this in favor of the scrolling.  If there is a timing issue with power pellet wear-offs, that is more pressing than the scrolling, isn't it?   lol.

I'm not certain there is a timing issued with the power pellets, yet. I've not played quite enough. I suspect there might be, but I need more time to suss it out to see if it is just my perceptions. I don't wanna call "Gotcha!" on a bug that might not be. Bugs are different from opinions. Opinions I can speak freely. Bugs I don't want to misreport. Sounds like you're already hammering on the ghost behavior one. Don't want to have you chasing phantoms just yet with that known issue still out there.

Hey, I didn't mention the scrolling at CCAG, either, if you'll remember. I needed to sit down with it at home, spend some quality time.

But it does affect the feel of a game for me and I dislike the claustrophobia it induces. I get the same feeling from 3D games with terrible draw distances or playing 3D racers in the hood perspective. I'm sure that I'll enjoy the game either way, but I'd personally prefer the difficulty increased in other ways as scroll points are a pet peeve of mine.

This also. Thanks, BT, for voicing something I was having trouble expressing.

[OldMan]

how about giving people the option of turning the radar off

Good idea. And easy enough to do. I'll add it to the list - but it will have to be from the debug menu. All the buttons are in use

...I dislike the claustrophobia it induces...

We're still discussing some changes to the border. But -maybe- we could add that to the debug menu too. I'll have to think about it some.

I'm not certain there is a timing issued with the power pellets, yet.

I'm sure. I stepped frame-by-frame through that stuff. If he's colored in (and not blue/white) when your death animation plays, he changed back before you got him.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Are you even trying the radar out?  

Nope.  The Wii U experience doesn't really interest me.

Show me actual proof that it's cheap and ruins the game, and maybe it will be considered more.

Provide proof that it isn't cheap and improves the game experience.  Oh that's right, you can't prove 'fun'.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I'm not certain there is a timing issued with the power pellets, yet. I've not played quite enough. I suspect there might be, but I need more time to suss it out to see if it is just my perceptions. I don't wanna call "Gotcha!" on a bug that might not be. Bugs are different from opinions. Opinions I can speak freely. Bugs I don't want to misreport. Sounds like you're already hammering on the ghost behavior one. Don't want to have you chasing phantoms just yet with that known issue still out there.

SignOfZeta pointed out something similar at the CCAG, and it may be sorted out now, with regards to eatable-state stuff and ghosts.   I am more concerned with the ghosts operating properly than anything.   Map fixes are next. 

Hey, I didn't mention the scrolling at CCAG, either, if you'll remember. I needed to sit down with it at home, spend some quality time.

I started explicitly asking people at one point.  I got lots of "who cares this is neat" and "this is fine" and "the radar is more important"'s.   There was even one guy that said we should make the border the screen edge.  But, I think that is a baaaaaad idea. 

But it does affect the feel of a game for me and I dislike the claustrophobia it induces. I get the same feeling from 3D games with terrible draw distances or playing 3D racers in the hood perspective. I'm sure that I'll enjoy the game either way, but I'd personally prefer the difficulty increased in other ways as scroll points are a pet peeve of mine.

This also. Thanks, BT, for voicing something I was having trouble expressing.

Yeah.  Well, it is hard to please everyone.  While I disagree and think they're fine, we're going to at least *try* some other options in an attempt to appease you guys, and any other potential sissie... i mean, gamers, who are a bit more claustrophobic. 

Nope.  The Wii U experience doesn't really interest me.

errr. It's not a separate controller.  It's just the top of the screen...I'm not sure how else to respond to this.

Provide proof that it isn't cheap and improves the game experience.  Oh that's right, you can't prove 'fun'.

I already quoted some statistics and have received only a few scroll point complaints.   You've seen them all.  I want to see it being an asshole in action so I can have a better reason to change it than "3 or 4 people didn't like it".  I played it alot myself, and watched people play it and never really saw any cheapness. That's why I want to see it happen.

As it stands right now, there are more people who don't care or think it is a nice balance that adds a frantic thrill to running around. 

As for proving fun: the smiles, yells, and encouraging words from all the people who played the demo right in front of me are pretty good proof that this is fun and that people enjoy it.

[Arkhan Asylum]

new build is up.

go grab it at www.aetherbyte.com !

and see the new protocards while you are there. 

[Nazi NecroPhile]

errr. It's not a separate controller.  It's just the top of the screen...I'm not sure how else to respond to this.

The obvious point was that you're trying to split the player's attention away from the main action.  I've yet to play a game where I enjoyed such an experience, but to each their own.

I already quoted some statistics and have received only a few scroll point complaints.   You've seen them all.

People saying they like it doesn't 'prove' anything, nor does it negate that others don't like it (and vice versa).  Most people think that Deep Blue sucks, so does that 'prove' that you're wrong for enjoying it?

I want to see it being an asshole in action so I can have a better reason to change it than "3 or 4 people didn't like it".  I played it alot myself, and watched people play it and never really saw any cheapness. That's why I want to see it happen.

You've never seen anyone go running towards the scroll side of the screen and run into an enemy?

As for proving fun: the smiles, yells, and encouraging words from all the people who played the demo right in front of me are pretty good proof that this is fun and that people enjoy it.

I can dislike part of a game and still love and enjoy the overall product (see Gotzendiener).  Can't you?

I think I'll join Rover in refraining from this circle jerk.  There's not much point in a discussion where I'm labeled as a moron or pussy for not liking one single aspect of the game play.