I Wish Mods Here Were More Militant

[Keranu]

For what it's worth, I too have met TurboJosh on a few occasions and one of the first traits about him that rubbed on me was his "fatherlyness." He's a great guy, one of the coolest I've met from these forums.

[Emerald Rocker]

The phrase "militant mods" has taken on a second meaning during the course of this thread.

[nectarsis]

two of the better forum members here, who happened to be black, Ninja Spirit and Mithos, up and left. Whether it was directly due to the stuff Joe said or not, who knows, but I have a gut feeling it played a factor in causing them to leave.

I don't remember Mithos but Ninja Spirit is still my friend on Facebook to this day.

He was albinoMithos when he was here

[Drakon]

I think everyone screws up and goes too far from time to time here in the forums, myself included.  But, when its not the norm, and its over, it should be let go.  Ive had dealings with both of you guys, and both of yoy seem like outstanding members of the community.  Is it too hard to just say, hey we both done some stupid shit, and just let it go?  Maybe its easier for me cause I dont like conflict.  I enjoy meeting new and different people, and making friends.  

Drakon, as far as Mike using.those images.  He already said that it wasnt something done in a malicious manner, and had no idea they were mostly your pics.  I believe he googled for images.  Knda giving folks an idea of what to look for.  I seriously doubt there was any harm meant.  We've reallu had some vulgar members lately, for example Regal and Xray or Canada aka Swiss780.  Mike and Josh are certainly not part of that group.  It just bothers me to see good forum members at each other.  

Again, not so much him using my pictures that really bugs me.  It's him misleading beginners into thinking that nice looking casework is the only method of measuring good modding work that annoyed me.

It's also hard to believe him using my old pics was coincidental since one of them was a screen grab taken from a youtube video in my channel.  He seemed annoyed at me questioning his s-video mod circuit thread, because I already had made a s-video mod thread.

*to professorliarson*

My pocketbook doesn't care about what you post, all you posted was a schematic of the s-video mod which I never made any money from and never planned to.

I never was "biting my tongue" and I thanked people for good suggestions.

again I'm not "crying because some of my bad work was shown".  The work in those pictures isn't bad it may be quick and dirty but those circuits work amazingly well.  You calling that stuff bad is just telling modders that doing stuff quickly means they fail at modding.

Again you're labelling it as "crap work" when it works fine, it was just done quickly.  You label things too quickly based purely on how they look.  What sort of message do you think this gives new modders?

I don't know why you think I'm worried about a customer base or making money.  I don't care about that, again I'm bothered by you completely misleading beginner modders.

People see my internal work when they plug it into the tv and it looks and runs better than some other modded consoles out there.  It's clear that you don't give a shit about well designed circuits, I wish you would realize that is important.

[HercTNT]

Drakon, i'm not choosing sides here, you guys wanna go at it, go at it. but what you say can and will be used against you, fair warning. Please, just learn and let it go. He was not after you, swallow your pride and quit defending yourself.

Why you say? Because you just got in hot water a few weeks ago for telling everyone in the modding forums that if you can't read schematics, then you are lazy and can't mod for shit. Now your defending your mods because some pictures look sloppy and shitty. You say they are prototypes. I believe you, we all throw stuff together quick like all the time to test it. So let it go, just remember though to watch what you say to other in the future. You never know when you will wind up in fighting street defending yourself.

[Drakon]

Used against me in what?  This is fighting street I thought the point of this place is to get our anger out at each other.  I don't mind fighting it out until we come to a civil conclusion which I'm sure will eventually happen.  Maybe we'll agree to disagree or whatever.  If I were to make a guide showing examples of bad mods I certainly wouldn't use googled images of other peoples work, that's just rude.  I'm always bothered when people judge a mod completely based on the casework.  Because of threads like that I've found modders out there who make lovely casework but when someone plugs their system in and turns it on there's all sorts of issues.  I'm not saying I'm against good casework I just think it's silly to judge good modwork based on pictures instead of how well the system actually runs.

Anyway I'd like to apologize to professor for any hurt, I just want to move past this and I'm sure we both just have very different opinions on what's considered as good mod work.  I do think in the future it would be best if he comes up with his own example pictures in threads instead of using other peoples work.  He does seem like a great guy but I think we have absolutely opposing opinions on what good modwork is and we tend to drive each other insane with that topic.

Drakon, i'm not choosing sides here, you guys wanna go at it, go at it. but what you say can and will be used against you, fair warning. Please, just learn and let it go. He was not after you, swallow your pride and quit defending yourself.

Why you say? Because you just got in hot water a few weeks ago for telling everyone in the modding forums that if you can't read schematics, then you are lazy and can't mod for shit. Now your defending your mods because some pictures look sloppy and shitty. You say they are prototypes. I believe you, we all throw stuff together quick like all the time to test it. So let it go, just remember though to watch what you say to other in the future. You never know when you will wind up in fighting street defending yourself.

[PCEngineHell]

Used against me in what?  This is fighting street I thought the point of this place is to get our anger out at each other.  I don't mind fighting it out until we come to a civil conclusion which I'm sure will eventually happen.  Maybe we'll agree to disagree or whatever.  If I were to make a guide showing examples of bad mods I certainly wouldn't use googled images of other peoples work, that's just rude.  I'm always bothered when people judge a mod completely based on the casework.  Because of threads like that I've found modders out there who make lovely casework but when someone plugs their system in and turns it on there's all sorts of issues.  I'm not saying I'm against good casework I just think it's silly to judge good modwork based on pictures instead of how well the system actually runs.

Anyway I'd like to apologize to professor for any hurt, I just want to move past this and I'm sure we both just have very different opinions on what's considered as good mod work.  I do think in the future it would be best if he comes up with his own example pictures in threads instead of using other peoples work.  He does seem like a great guy but I think we have absolutely opposing opinions on what good modwork is and we tend to drive each other insane with that topic.

and

Again you're labelling it as "crap work" when it works fine, it was just done quickly.  You label things too quickly based purely on how they look.  What sort of message do you think this gives new modders?

And to that I say:

http://16bitgamer.forumotion.ca/t55-failmods-beware

Foot in mouth much? You whine and bitch like a victim, and yet do the exact same thing on your own forum. The difference being my goal was to educate, while yours was simply to call people out by name and tear them down publicly to impress the few members visiting your own forum. The size of your ego must be profound....

I'm not exactly sure what part of this I am not making clear to you, so again, for me its a all or nothing deal. If you are going to take peoples money to mod their system, and plan to help protect their investment, then you damn well better do a solid job all the way around, not just on a circuit board. The exterior is just as important to me as the interior. No one has been misled, except maybe for a few folks that maybe bought into your spin. And lets face it, there was nothing wrong with the s-video schematic I presented. The information was correct, and easy to read for beginners.

The fact is you were critical concerning it because the information was presented for people just learning how to do the stuff, and you felt threatened by this some how. Elitist, egotistical, threatened pocketbook, who knows your exact motivation. I could care less. The problem is you were thread crapping for no good reason other then you had some petty personal issue going on there with the sharing of information within the community. Anyway, thanks for the little chuckle you gave me today. Now I'm off to test a repaired Voodoo 2. Later guy.  

[Drakon]

My forum isn't popular in the least.  If the authors of those mods complained to me about those posts then I'd happily remove or edit the posts to their liking.  And I did credit the authors instead of taking "random images from google" for examples.

I understand case modding is important too and I'm slowly getting better at that, but to me how well the mod works is always more important.  It's fine if we don't agree on this and I respect that.

I really wasn't trying to bash on your s-video circuit but no matter how I tried to put it you seemed to get annoyed.  Sorry for that.

I never felt "threatened" again that is all being made up.  I like to remind people that you can hire someone with experience, and that it's always good to start with really simple mods and patiently work your way up.  Once again my pocketbook doesn't care, I've never done a pc engine commission.  I also released the schematics and a guide after getting great help from modders here, obviously I wasn't trying to hide or protect anything.

Some people misinterpret what I'm trying to say and I can see you're doing just that.  Once again I wasn't trying to thread crap but I could see you were taking it that way.  Enjoy your voodoo 2.

[roflmao]

Thanks again for getting rid of Regal, Joe! 

It's been so nice these last few days reading through the forum and not have to trudge through a bunch of retarded regal shit and all the retarded response posts then eventually derailed any interesting thread.

Woo hoo!

[rag-time4]

Have been gone for a bit, looks like i missed some action!

I've been wandering the internet the past few months searching for the truth, and I have to say that I think that keranu's approach to forum moderating is really the best approach for any community, especially an internet forum. I think that in a community such as ours, which really revolves around a niche or "off-the-beaten-path" console, we should have a high degree of tolerance for the weirdos among us. Me personally, one or two strange people, racist assholes, complete morons, or narrow minded simpletons would never motivate me to leave a forum.

Far worse for me is seeing a mob mentality develop around getting rid of someone, even if that someone is rude or says things i personally find apalling.

When there are mods committed to being very active and influential, theres more chance that the moderator will take sides in personal disputes... When you have moderators committed to a hands off approach, members have the freedom to resolve or not resolve disputes on their own.

[jlued686]

So, then, what is the point of a moderator?

[rag-time4]

So, then, what is the point of a moderator?

the point of moderators is to protect the forum's existence by removing illegal material etc, and handling administrative tasks such as locking duplicate threads or perhaps moving threads to the appropriate forum.

Personally I think forum rules against offensive behavior are horrible. I dont believe anyone has the God given right to never be offended. On the contrary, I think that people have the right to be offended by whatever their beliefs and feelings dictate.

[rag-time4]

By the way, I should add that sometimes it is appropriate and right to gang up on someone, but I think its one of the most dangerous things in the whole world so we better be on the side of right when we do it. Usually our basis for judging others is imperfect.

[jlued686]

Seems like I just had this conversation earlier today.

I'm not suggesting some sort of Gestapo or thought police. But when a member - RegalSin, for example - goes on a months long tirade, consistently posting gibberish, including racially offensive posts and basically advocating kiddie porn, that's not the type of environment most people want to be a part of.

This forum community does a great job of policing itself. But, as you said, you've been gone a while and probably didn't see what type of shit RegalSin was up to. And, this place is way better without him.

[CGQuarterly]

I totally understand what you're saying, rag-time, but I still maintain that RegalSin and xray had to go.

Chris

[Drakon]

word (I concur)

I totally understand what you're saying, rag-time, but I still maintain that RegalSin and xray had to go.

Chris

[rag-time4]

I totally understand what you're saying, rag-time, but I still maintain that RegalSin and xray had to go.

Chris

I just read this xray thread: https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=12857.0

It's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. And no, I dont think you do understand what I'm talking about. This thread shows that with a hands off approach to moderation, other members like yourself, mike, nightwolve, and arkhan were able to take some shots at xray and dig for more information about the guy.

I noticed many members were ready to dive in head first, just out of love for teh turbo/pce, but after some digging by mike et al many changed their minds. With active moderation, and sticking to the letter of the speech-limiting law, maybe mike, wolve, and yourself deserve to get tossed as well. I say the thread is a perfect example that liberty is the best solution. When members are free to question, test, and outright attack other members, people's character will come out for better or worse. Depending on active moderators to toss certain people is the solution of people who dont want to take responsibility for themselves in my view.

The argument i see being presented is that "we need more moderation to protect us from undesireables!" BS. How about taking the responsibility to get to know someone instead of rushing to send them your money? Sometimes, I've seen people take risks i wouldnt.... One time I remember henrycsc paid over a grand to a new member sicboy and got a haul of a collection... But bad things can happen too.

Seems like I just had this conversation earlier today.

I'm not suggesting some sort of Gestapo or thought police. But when a member - RegalSin, for example - goes on a months long tirade, consistently posting gibberish, including racially offensive posts and basically advocating kiddie porn, that's not the type of environment most people want to be a part of.

This forum community does a great job of policing itself. But, as you said, you've been gone a while and probably didn't see what type of shit RegalSin was up to. And, this place is way better without him.

I read in this thread that Keranu warned him about his advocacy of kiddie porn in his posts and keranu said that he saw improvement, but was willing to ban him with approprate proof.

Personally, some of the most fun ive had here is in threads that have been derailed into the fantasy zone... And if regalsin ever derailed a thread of mine i wouldnt feel the need to get upset about it, especially since he almost always approaches topics from a totally different perspective than I or pretty much anyone else would.

This issue really shows that we've gotten away from the idea that a society based on freedom and liberty can function and thrive. It's a real shame.

The best way to handle undesireables is to use liberty the way mike has done here for many years: question and test people, hard if necessary. Both accuser and accused may learn something and grow from the experience. The community will benefit by gaining more information.

There have been members in the past who clashed with mike and wanted him banned for being overly aggressive, but time and again he takes the time to shed light on things that other members gloss over. The proper conclusion should be to encourage liberty, not to come up with arbitrary codes of conduct with arbitrary enforcement.

[NightWolve]

Welcome back rag-time! You had me worried for a second there, thinking that you were referring to the recent gang-up I, Professor and others took part in when it came to Xray and deciding that you were opposed to it in his case! When you drop pedophilia charges against my friends, well, I'm gonna take it personal and come after you! I didn't expect the whole making-Nazi-signs-in-his-garage stuff or hanging out at a place like chimpout, but given how he was throwing his weight around, being on a power trip because so many were smitten by his signs, I wanted to see him taken down! Turns out that there was so much material for that purpose that Mike and others had uncovered. I mostly verified things and put it all together in one audit-like post for all to see.

[rag-time4]

Welcome back rag-time! You had me worried for a second there, thinking that you were referring to the recent gang-up I, Professor and others took part in when it came to Xray and deciding that you were opposed to it in his case! When you drop pedophilia charges against my friends, well, I'm gonna take it personal and come after you! I didn't expect the whole making Nazi signs in his garage stuff or hanging out at a place like chimpout, but given how he was throwing his weight around, being on a power trip because so many were smitten by his signs, I wanted to see him taken down! Turns out that there was so much material for that purpose that Mike and others had uncovered. I mostly verified things and put it all together in one audit-like post for all to see.

Thanks wolve! Glad to see youre still active

[rag-time4]

Forgot to add: we have found over the years that when people of questionable character are questioned and pressed, they tend to not handle it well and hilarity often ensues.

[HercTNT]

I totally understand what you're saying, rag-time, but I still maintain that RegalSin and xray had to go.

Chris

I just read this xray thread: https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=12857.0

It's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. And no, I dont think you do understand what I'm talking about. This thread shows that with a hands off approach to moderation, other members like yourself, mike, nightwolve, and arkhan were able to take some shots at xray and dig for more information about the guy.

I noticed many members were ready to dive in head first, just out of love for teh turbo/pce, but after some digging by mike et al many changed their minds. With active moderation, and sticking to the letter of the speech-limiting law, maybe mike, wolve, and yourself deserve to get tossed as well. I say the thread is a perfect example that liberty is the best solution. When members are free to question, test, and outright attack other members, people's character will come out for better or worse. Depending on active moderators to toss certain people is the solution of people who dont want to take responsibility for themselves in my view.

The argument i see being presented is that "we need more moderation to protect us from undesireables!" BS. How about taking the responsibility to get to know someone instead of rushing to send them your money? Sometimes, I've seen people take risks i wouldnt.... One time I remember henrycsc paid over a grand to a new member sicboy and got a haul of a collection... But bad things can happen too.

Seems like I just had this conversation earlier today.

I'm not suggesting some sort of Gestapo or thought police. But when a member - RegalSin, for example - goes on a months long tirade, consistently posting gibberish, including racially offensive posts and basically advocating kiddie porn, that's not the type of environment most people want to be a part of.

This forum community does a great job of policing itself. But, as you said, you've been gone a while and probably didn't see what type of shit RegalSin was up to. And, this place is way better without him.

I read in this thread that Keranu warned him about his advocacy of kiddie porn in his posts and keranu said that he saw improvement, but was willing to ban him with approprate proof.

Personally, some of the most fun ive had here is in threads that have been derailed into the fantasy zone... And if regalsin ever derailed a thread of mine i wouldnt feel the need to get upset about it, especially since he almost always approaches topics from a totally different perspective than I or pretty much anyone else would.

This issue really shows that we've gotten away from the idea that a society based on freedom and liberty can function and thrive. It's a real shame.

The best way to handle undesireables is to use liberty the way mike has done here for many years: question and test people, hard if necessary. Both accuser and accused may learn something and grow from the experience. The community will benefit by gaining more information.

There have been members in the past who clashed with mike and wanted him banned for being overly aggressive, but time and again he takes the time to shed light on things that other members gloss over. The proper conclusion should be to encourage liberty, not to come up with arbitrary codes of conduct with arbitrary enforcement.

These are forums were there are clear proper rules of conduct that you agree to when you sign up like it or not. Xray, regal, fenix, all broke these rules in some cases well beyond what any sane human being would consider tolerable. This forum does have a place were others can let loose their crazy shit and your currently in it. Otherwise it makes sense to have some sort of decorum as to be respectful to the vast difference in opinions and beliefs that forums members have. Its called common decency. Mods had become extremely lax and until Joe stepped up, it was up to people like Mike, Jibbajabba, Knightwolve and a few others to have the guts to say enough is enough and do something about it. Your opinion is noted, but the community spoke clearly on this one. Xray and regal are gone and for good reason.  You can argue methods and semantics all day long, but racism and bigotry (xray), pedophilia (regal), and posting other personal information (fenix) simply have no place here or anywhere. Especially posting of personal information, that can have a tangible and negative impact immediately. Especially when the person affected has a family to consider. It was up to Mike to address that one as the mods were silent. You do the math.
I'm sure you will find a way to explain why we don't get it like you told Jibba, but we do, we just clearly don't agree. Maybe you don't get it...........my two cents.

[BigusSchmuck]

I totally understand what you're saying, rag-time, but I still maintain that RegalSin and xray had to go.

Chris

I just read this xray thread: https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=12857.0

It's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. And no, I dont think you do understand what I'm talking about. This thread shows that with a hands off approach to moderation, other members like yourself, mike, nightwolve, and arkhan were able to take some shots at xray and dig for more information about the guy.

I noticed many members were ready to dive in head first, just out of love for teh turbo/pce, but after some digging by mike et al many changed their minds. With active moderation, and sticking to the letter of the speech-limiting law, maybe mike, wolve, and yourself deserve to get tossed as well. I say the thread is a perfect example that liberty is the best solution. When members are free to question, test, and outright attack other members, people's character will come out for better or worse. Depending on active moderators to toss certain people is the solution of people who dont want to take responsibility for themselves in my view.

The argument i see being presented is that "we need more moderation to protect us from undesireables!" BS. How about taking the responsibility to get to know someone instead of rushing to send them your money? Sometimes, I've seen people take risks i wouldnt.... One time I remember henrycsc paid over a grand to a new member sicboy and got a haul of a collection... But bad things can happen too.

Seems like I just had this conversation earlier today.

I'm not suggesting some sort of Gestapo or thought police. But when a member - RegalSin, for example - goes on a months long tirade, consistently posting gibberish, including racially offensive posts and basically advocating kiddie porn, that's not the type of environment most people want to be a part of.

This forum community does a great job of policing itself. But, as you said, you've been gone a while and probably didn't see what type of shit RegalSin was up to. And, this place is way better without him.

I read in this thread that Keranu warned him about his advocacy of kiddie porn in his posts and keranu said that he saw improvement, but was willing to ban him with approprate proof.

Personally, some of the most fun ive had here is in threads that have been derailed into the fantasy zone... And if regalsin ever derailed a thread of mine i wouldnt feel the need to get upset about it, especially since he almost always approaches topics from a totally different perspective than I or pretty much anyone else would.

This issue really shows that we've gotten away from the idea that a society based on freedom and liberty can function and thrive. It's a real shame.

The best way to handle undesireables is to use liberty the way mike has done here for many years: question and test people, hard if necessary. Both accuser and accused may learn something and grow from the experience. The community will benefit by gaining more information.

There have been members in the past who clashed with mike and wanted him banned for being overly aggressive, but time and again he takes the time to shed light on things that other members gloss over. The proper conclusion should be to encourage liberty, not to come up with arbitrary codes of conduct with arbitrary enforcement.

These are forums were there are clear proper rules of conduct that you agree to when you sign up like it or not. Xray, regal, fenix, all broke these rules in some cases well beyond what any sane human being would consider tolerable. This forum does have a place were others can let loose their crazy shit and your currently in it. Otherwise it makes sense to have some sort of decorum as to be respectful to the vast difference in opinions and beliefs that forums members have. Its called common decency. Mods had become extremely lax and until Joe stepped up, it was up to people like Mike, Jibbajabba, Knightwolve and a few others to have the guts to say enough is enough and do something about it. Your opinion is noted, but the community spoke clearly on this one. Xray and regal are gone and for good reason.  You can argue methods and semantics all day long, but racism and bigotry (xray), pedophilia (regal), and posting other personal information (fenix) simply have no place here or anywhere. Especially posting of personal information, that can have a tangible and negative impact immediately. Especially when the person affected has a family to consider. It was up to Mike to address that one as the mods were silent. You do the math.
I'm sure you will find a way to explain why we don't get it like you told Jibba, but we do, we just clearly don't agree. Maybe you don't get it...........my two cents.

Thanks I glad someone else is on my side of things although Fenix is still here he has been rather quiet as of late other than bumping his sales threads. I think he learned his lesson but only time will tell if he becomes a productive member of these forums.

[jlued686]

Yeah, I'm not sure how an internet forum with clear rules that have to be accepted upon signing up all of a sudden morphed into a conversation about life, liberty, and the pursuit to act like a fucking douche bag with zero consequence.

[HercTNT]

Yeah, I'm not sure how an internet forum with clear rules that have to be accepted upon signing up all of a sudden morphed into a conversation about life, liberty, and the pursuit to act like a fucking douche bag with zero consequence.

Exactly, and yet despite agreeing to said rules you always have one guy that feels the need to explain why the rules are just wrong. I'm getting tired of people jumping in to these forums, Noobs and long timers alike, that are being apologetic for other members clearly bad behavior. its one thing to disagree with rules and conduct, someone wants to be a robinhood and fight that man, thats there opinion. When people can't agree that racism, bigotry, sexism, and pedophilia is bad, you really have to wonder what the hell is wrong with them.  Most of the time people around here get along just fine. Xray and regal were special cases and they got theres. once that died down its been real quiet.

[CGQuarterly]

I really don't mind if someone comes here and says things that people don't like.  But when people come here just to troll, and to derail threads, I'm not worried about their liberty anymore.  RegalSin literally contributed ZERO around here, and I'm glad he's gone.  He was nothing but a drain.  Same goes for xray.  Once it became clear that he wasn't wanted here anymore, he turned into a troll and it was time for him to go.

Now, people like Nintega and JohnnyBlaze?  If they want to come here and try to repair the damage they did or whatever, then fuck it, let em.  Xray and RegalSin were NEVER here because they just wanted to talk about Turbo shit.  Regal is a professional troll, and that piece of white trash xray was only here for a quick buck (that according to him he didn't need and wasn't making anyway.)

So yes, rag-time, I DO understand what you're saying.  The last thing I want around here is heavy-handed moderation, and it's a slippery slope to get us there.  But what we should have around here is at least one person who has moderation powers and who actually gives a shit.  Because at the end of the day, someone with an axe to grind can come in here and spam/troll the shit out of the forums and there's nothing we can do about it.  Once we exposed xray for what he was, he acted like a pain in the dickhole for a few days and then got bored and left.  But Regal?  He was just picking up steam and was completely impervious to anything that any of us had to say.  He NEEDED to be banned.

Chris

[PCEngineHell]

Nintega should not be allowed back here. He went into stalking mode posing as someones wife and others on social networking or youtube crap or whatever, and also joined Digital Press to troll specifically, and also slandered not just Nat on the Duo deal, but also made false accusations against Nectarsis concerning transactions that obviously never took place. You cant really do anything to make up for all that kind of crap. He has attacked others not related to Pcefx in any sort of way.

[PunkCryborg]

Yeah This all stems from us trying to get the attention of mods. I am all for free speech as well but for christsake, regal had about 19 people ignoring him and nearly 1000 posts of utter nonsense and nothing happened till we were pretty much begging for him to be banned.

[Drakon]

Well let's see...I joined this forum because I recently started getting into pc engine collecting.  I love the collecting, restoration, homebrew scene, and improvements on this classic piece of hardware.  I'm also discovering how great the library is.  I may not always agree with other members but I'm sure over time all wounds will heal since we all love the pc engine.

However if people like xray and regalsin were allowed to stay here I'd flat out be turned off from coming here.  I like how there's a fighting section of the forum, I think a little healthy fighting is fine because people will always have different opinions about things.  But when I see members here who clearly have no love or passion for the pc engine, I feel like this forum is stupid.  And when these people who have no care about the pc engine start causing trouble, it just gets really bad.

To sum things up...I'm with jibbajabba, and herctnt, and the others who're in agreeance.

[rag-time4]

Exactly, and yet despite agreeing to said rules you always have one guy that feels the need to explain why the rules are just wrong. I'm getting tired of people jumping in to these forums, Noobs and long timers alike, that are being apologetic for other members clearly bad behavior. its one thing to disagree with rules and conduct, someone wants to be a robinhood and fight that man, thats there opinion. When people can't agree that racism, bigotry, sexism, and pedophilia is bad, you really have to wonder what the hell is wrong with them.  Most of the time people around here get along just fine. Xray and regal were special cases and they got theres. once that died down its been real quiet.

Are you saying here that I don't agree that racism, bigotry, sexism, and pedophilia are bad? If so, then I can wholeheartedly and correctly say that you have completely missed my point.

The only xray thread i've read is the one I linked to above, and I found it interesting that he took the time to write a really long response to the discussion of Nazi images he had on his desktop etc... I noticed he said he said he agreed with some of their points and disagreed with others. I liked that he said he disagreed with the mass atrocities, and I really liked his comparison to the mass killing committed by the U.S. in WWII when it illegally firebombed civilian targets in Germany and Japan, (not to mention the atomic bombings of two Japanese cities).

These are forums were there are clear proper rules of conduct that you agree to when you sign up like it or not. Xray, regal, fenix, all broke these rules in some cases well beyond what any sane human being would consider tolerable. This forum does have a place were others can let loose their crazy shit and your currently in it. Otherwise it makes sense to have some sort of decorum as to be respectful to the vast difference in opinions and beliefs that forums members have. Its called common decency. Mods had become extremely lax and until Joe stepped up, it was up to people like Mike, Jibbajabba, Knightwolve and a few others to have the guts to say enough is enough and do something about it. Your opinion is noted, but the community spoke clearly on this one. Xray and regal are gone and for good reason.  You can argue methods and semantics all day long, but racism and bigotry (xray), pedophilia (regal), and posting other personal information (fenix) simply have no place here or anywhere. Especially posting of personal information, that can have a tangible and negative impact immediately. Especially when the person affected has a family to consider. It was up to Mike to address that one as the mods were silent. You do the math.
I'm sure you will find a way to explain why we don't get it like you told Jibba, but we do, we just clearly don't agree. Maybe you don't get it...........my two cents.

My opinion is noted [then discarded?], yet I am as much "the community" as you are. The fact that most who have chimed in here agree with you does not give you the right to speak for "the community" as a whole. Sounds like exclusionary groupthink to me.

I commend your disdain for racism and bigotry, pedophilia, and unwanted posting of personal info, but where I question you is when you say things like "it was up to Mike", and elsewhere you said that Mike, wolve, jibba, and a few others were willing to speak up... As I see it, "the community" should be free to speak up when others post offensive stuff, without having to involve moderators at all. Why do moderators have to enforce standards of common decency? Why can't the community handle indecent members / posts without calling for more aggressive mods?

I really don't mind if someone comes here and says things that people don't like.  But when people come here just to troll, and to derail threads, I'm not worried about their liberty anymore.  RegalSin literally contributed ZERO around here, and I'm glad he's gone.  He was nothing but a drain.  Same goes for xray.  Once it became clear that he wasn't wanted here anymore, he turned into a troll and it was time for him to go.

Now, people like Nintega and JohnnyBlaze?  If they want to come here and try to repair the damage they did or whatever, then fuck it, let em.  Xray and RegalSin were NEVER here because they just wanted to talk about Turbo shit.  Regal is a professional troll, and that piece of white trash xray was only here for a quick buck (that according to him he didn't need and wasn't making anyway.)

So yes, rag-time, I DO understand what you're saying.  The last thing I want around here is heavy-handed moderation, and it's a slippery slope to get us there.  But what we should have around here is at least one person who has moderation powers and who actually gives a shit.  Because at the end of the day, someone with an axe to grind can come in here and spam/troll the shit out of the forums and there's nothing we can do about it.  Once we exposed xray for what he was, he acted like a pain in the dickhole for a few days and then got bored and left.  But Regal?  He was just picking up steam and was completely impervious to anything that any of us had to say.  He NEEDED to be banned.

Chris

Why would something as silly as trolling and thread derailing be enough for you to give up something so sacred as liberty? I'm not willing to give up on liberty easily, and I believe strongly that it works in a practical sense.

This forum has gone through this same issue before, where many members spoke up about the lack of active moderators.... I believe Keranu was flying solo at that time. That was when Aaron added Joe and Nat to the moderator crew, giving us three mods, and rules were added to each section. While we've gained many great new members since, we've also lost some. People come and go regardless. In my opinion, having Joe and Nat added to the staff has helped get threads moved to appropriate boards faster, and that type of stuff makes the boards better, but having people banned more efficiently I could care less about.

Coming here for the first time back when Keranu was the only mod, my mind was opened to the possibility of how community interaction on a message board could/would function without banning people who belligerently failed or refused to fit in... and I found it both refreshing and exciting, and I found lots of great people and content here in that environment (many of whom are still here btw)

Speaking personally, I'm no 'professional troll', but I was banned from a message board once. In my case, I felt I was speaking out against racism and unfair treatment, but most of the people on the forum disagreed and didn't want to hear what I had to say. I was recently blocked from a facebook group as well, the local county Republican party's group, for being too critical of Romney. I feel really good about it, by the way, because there was another member who advocated genocide against the middle east (let's economize and drop all our bombs at once, and turn the whole region into glass, were close to her exact words), and that member was not blocked from the group.

Yeah, I'm not sure how an internet forum with clear rules that have to be accepted upon signing up all of a sudden morphed into a conversation about life, liberty, and the pursuit to act like a fucking douche bag with zero consequence.

I agree that we do indeed agree to the rules when we join. My issue is that we can still enforce the rules while emphasizing liberty. We can do this with a more relaxed approach to moderating. Far from zero consequence, being relaxed in moderating allows for more open criticism / questioning / attack of members, so it can be even more important to have a strong sense of decorum with how you treat others, since no holds will be barred in how others respond to you.

Some people can thrive in such an environment, while others are used to having nanny moderators take care of things.

Yeah This all stems from us trying to get the attention of mods. I am all for free speech as well but for christsake, regal had about 19 people ignoring him and nearly 1000 posts of utter nonsense and nothing happened till we were pretty much begging for him to be banned.

Though I haven't been around for a while, I never had a problem with regal's posts. First non chit-chat I pulled here was a good one:

https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=11761.msg257850#msg257850

Rough grammar, etc, but as a review as worthwhile as anyone's.

Free speech, in my view, is something we have to have a deep, passionate commitment to, otherwise it's not really free at all.

[jlued686]

agree that we do indeed agree to the rules when we join. My issue is that we can still enforce the rules while emphasizing liberty. We can do this with a more relaxed approach to moderating. Far from zero consequence, being relaxed in moderating allows for more open criticism / questioning / attack of members, so it can be even more important to have a strong sense of decorum with how you treat others, since no holds will be barred in how others respond to you.

Honestly, I don't know what your point is. Nobody is suggesting we turn these forums into a nanny state, so there's no need to get all Tea Party on the subject. The whole reason I started this thread, and the whole reason it took on 12 pages, is because forum members - who have been here contributing for years - were tired of people like RegalSin carpet-bombing this place with absolute bullshit for months with zero consequence other than, "Well, if he mentions kid-fucking again maybe I'll ban him."

This isn't a first amendment issue that requires a shallow free speech debate. This is about once in a while taking out somebody who consistently pisses on everyone's good time. The people who were banned had ZERO interest in contributing here. They were here solely to troll, annoy people, and disrupt conversations. That should be "protected"? Horse shit.

[rag-time4]

Jibba: I also want to add this: I think that to say, even indirectly, that Keranu doesn't give a shit can be seen as pretty disrespectful. His approach to moderating is rooted in his deeper worldview. Keranu sets a good example as a mod: He's about the last person here you would ever expect to treat another member unkindly, even the wackos. Yet he doesn't need a moderator to force others to be kind to him, nor does he feel the need to grovel to a moderator when someone is unkind to him.

[Firebomber7]

Regal Sin hasn't done anything ban-worthy yet.  He's just creepy.

Promoting child porn isn't ban worthy? That just shows that this entire thread is very justified, as you seem to have completely missed that one.

Yes, I am only on like page 4 of this thread. I'm catching up!

[Sadler]

The only xray thread i've read is the one I linked to above, and I found it interesting that he took the time to write a really long response to the discussion of Nazi images he had on his desktop etc... I noticed he said he said he agreed with some of their points and disagreed with others. I liked that he said he disagreed with the mass atrocities, and I really liked his comparison to the mass killing committed by the U.S. in WWII when it illegally firebombed civilian targets in Germany and Japan, (not to mention the atomic bombings of two Japanese cities).

History is written by the victors, no doubt. Yes, the US did horrible things in WWII. I still find it disgusting that you'd equate what the Nazi's did with the fire bombings of Tokyo and Dresden, or the bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima. I don't know what your background is. I know the Japanese see what we did as absolutely horrible and uncalled for and to be honest I agree. I can also tell you I grew up in the place that was responsible for this. I was delivering papers on bathtub row 20 years ago and yeah that was a long time from WWII, but no one I talked to saw genocide as an acceptable solution. I've been to Hiroshima as well and I've never experienced a sense of guilt and downright disgust as I did walking through what remained of the ruins from that bombing. I still think any equivalence of the US's actions in WWII with genocide as wholely uncalled for.

[nectarsis]

The only xray thread i've read is the one I linked to above, and I found it interesting that he took the time to write a really long response to the discussion of Nazi images he had on his desktop etc... I noticed he said he said he agreed with some of their points and disagreed with others. I liked that he said he disagreed with the mass atrocities, and I really liked his comparison to the mass killing committed by the U.S. in WWII when it illegally firebombed civilian targets in Germany and Japan, (not to mention the atomic bombings of two Japanese cities).

History is written by the victors, no doubt. Yes, the US did horrible things in WWII. I still find it disgusting that you'd equate what the Nazi's did with the fire bombings of Tokyo and Dresden, or the bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima. I don't know what your background is. I know the Japanese see what we did as absolutely horrible and uncalled for and to be honest I agree. I can also tell you I grew up in the place that was responsible for this. I was delivering papers on bathtub row 20 years ago and yeah that was a long time from WWII, but no one I talked to saw genocide as an acceptable solution. I've been to Hiroshima as well and I've never experienced a sense of guilt and downright disgust as I did walking through what remained of the ruins from that bombing. I still think any equivalence of the US's actions in WWII with genocide as wholely uncalled for.

This conversation has happened at least once before, good luck changing his mind ;) LOL

[rag-time4]

agree that we do indeed agree to the rules when we join. My issue is that we can still enforce the rules while emphasizing liberty. We can do this with a more relaxed approach to moderating. Far from zero consequence, being relaxed in moderating allows for more open criticism / questioning / attack of members, so it can be even more important to have a strong sense of decorum with how you treat others, since no holds will be barred in how others respond to you.

Honestly, I don't know what your point is. Nobody is suggesting we turn these forums into a nanny state, so there's no need to get all Tea Party on the subject. The whole reason I started this thread, and the whole reason it took on 12 pages, is because forum members - who have been here contributing for years - were tired of people like RegalSin carpet-bombing this place with absolute bullshit for months with zero consequence other than, "Well, if he mentions kid-fucking again maybe I'll ban him."

This isn't a first amendment issue that requires a shallow free speech debate. This is about once in a while taking out somebody who consistently pisses on everyone's good time. The people who were banned had ZERO interest in contributing here. They were here solely to troll, annoy people, and disrupt conversations. That should be "protected"? Horse shit.

My point is, I think your call for more militant mods is in fact a call for a nanny state. You seem to want to have a mod that you can turn to when you feel offended. I say we'd all be better off if we took responsibility for our own feelings and called people out when they offend us.

Regal was carpet bombing you say? Why not ignore or skip if the first line or two dont catch you? Why resort to banning? Regal did indeed seem genuinely interested in the PCE, and xray may have been as well since he seemed to show up here with a turbo-related project... After his (deserved) reception, xray lost interest.

A free speech debate is never shallow for someone with a deep commitment to it as a principle and way of life. I agree this isnt a 1st amendment issue, since were not dealing with government. But I do think it is a free speech debate that gets to the core issue of how we should handle free speech on this forum. I'm for building a community where its near impossible to get banned. I think liberty works better.

[Firebomber7]

Regal Sin hasn't done anything ban-worthy yet.  He's just creepy.

Promoting child porn isn't ban worthy? That just shows that this entire thread is very justified, as you seem to have completely missed that one.

Yes, I am only on like page 4 of this thread. I'm catching up!

Well, page 7 I have now read. I guess that's done now.

[rag-time4]

The only xray thread i've read is the one I linked to above, and I found it interesting that he took the time to write a really long response to the discussion of Nazi images he had on his desktop etc... I noticed he said he said he agreed with some of their points and disagreed with others. I liked that he said he disagreed with the mass atrocities, and I really liked his comparison to the mass killing committed by the U.S. in WWII when it illegally firebombed civilian targets in Germany and Japan, (not to mention the atomic bombings of two Japanese cities).

History is written by the victors, no doubt. Yes, the US did horrible things in WWII. I still find it disgusting that you'd equate what the Nazi's did with the fire bombings of Tokyo and Dresden, or the bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima. I don't know what your background is. I know the Japanese see what we did as absolutely horrible and uncalled for and to be honest I agree. I can also tell you I grew up in the place that was responsible for this. I was delivering papers on bathtub row 20 years ago and yeah that was a long time from WWII, but no one I talked to saw genocide as an acceptable solution. I've been to Hiroshima as well and I've never experienced a sense of guilt and downright disgust as I did walking through what remained of the ruins from that bombing. I still think any equivalence of the US's actions in WWII with genocide as wholely uncalled for.

I think the murder of innocent people is equivalent to the murder of innocent people. I certainly agree that the death toll was much higher under the Germans, but I think the morality and illegality of the murder is a fair comparison. Sadly, many of the racist ideas propagated by Hitler, such as Eugenics, find their roots in the U.S. Hitler wanted to do something similar to Eastern Europe and the Jews that the U.S. did to Native Americans in terms of expansion of territory. As far as xray goes, he didn't agree with the genocide so thumbs up to him for that lol

[Sadler]

Do you know what genocide is? Do you think the US participated in genocide in WWII?

[PCEngineHell]

He only says he didn't. At first he denied his activity on chimpout also. No one actually knows whether or not he actually supported the death-camp murders or not. The guy was not exactly a pillar of outspoken self-truth on the matter. Mainly his interest was to try to soak up a few more sales before splitting, admitting only to the bare minimal, trying to spin it in a positive light, trying to save a little face in order to do so.

[nectarsis]

The Jews in no way had ANY bearing on Hitlers ambition for expansion of territory, not even close to comparable.

[rag-time4]

Do you know what genocide is? Do you think the US participated in genocide in WWII?

The definition of genocide is still an issue of controversy in the international community, so I don't pretend to have the perfect definition worked out yet. Do you? I do believe the US participated in genocidal behavior, but I don't think that the US ever set complete genocide as a strategy goal the way Hitler did.

He only says he didn't. At first he denied his activity on chimpout also. No one actually knows whether or not he actually supported the death-camp murders or not. The guy was not exactly a pillar of outspoken self-truth on the matter. Mainly his interest was to try to soak up a few more sales before splitting, admitting only to the bare minimal, trying to spin it in a positive light, trying to save a little face in order to do so.

You're right, what he said and what he actually believes may certainly be two different things. Nobody asked him what points of the Nazis he did believe in lol ... I have to admit I'm curious what ideas he would admit to agreeing with.

The Jews in no way had ANY bearing on Hitlers ambition for expansion of territory, not even close to comparable.

But Jews weren't the only people killed by Hitler and the Nazis. The "living space" he wanted was to be had in Eastern Europe if I'm not mistaken, and all the slavic, non-nordic peoples were targets... and there were certainly many many Jews in Eastern Europe and Russia. So I disagree with you here.

[BigusSchmuck]

Man if the guy would have talked about something cool like uboats instead of racist crap I would have tolerated him. Speaking of which, there really should be a port of Wolfpack to the Turbo/PCE. Hmm..

[nectarsis]

The Jews in no way had ANY bearing on Hitlers ambition for expansion of territory, not even close to comparable.

But Jews weren't the only people killed by Hitler and the Nazis. The "living space" he wanted was to be had in Eastern Europe if I'm not mistaken, and all the slavic, non-nordic peoples were targets... and there were certainly many many Jews in Eastern Europe and Russia. So I disagree with you here.

Yet they were one of the main/biggest targets that had little/nothing to do in stopping his conquest of those lands (and obviously not just eastern europe)....how/why was it necessary to purge them (as they were used as a scapegoat for everything under the sun)...oh wait they were just undesirable.  It was far from necessary to attempt to wipe out an entire race as he didn't do the same for all peoples in the affected areas.

[rag-time4]

The Jews in no way had ANY bearing on Hitlers ambition for expansion of territory, not even close to comparable.

But Jews weren't the only people killed by Hitler and the Nazis. The "living space" he wanted was to be had in Eastern Europe if I'm not mistaken, and all the slavic, non-nordic peoples were targets... and there were certainly many many Jews in Eastern Europe and Russia. So I disagree with you here.

Yet they were one of the main/biggest targets that had little/nothing to do in stopping his conquest of those lands (and obviously not just eastern europe)....how/why was it necessary to purge them (as they were used as a scapegoat for everything under the sun)...oh wait they were just undesirable.  It was far from necessary to attempt to wipe out an entire race as he didn't do the same for all peoples in the affected areas.

I think that in countries like Poland and Russia, Jews actually did represent a sizeable minority in the respective militaries of those countries.

A quick search pulled this book that might be interesting: http://www.zchor.org/meirtchak/biblio.htm

Jews were certainly a sizeable minority of the civilian population in Poland and Russia, and large numbers of them had to be relocated / removed in order for the master race to have their 'living space'. The generally recognized death toll of the holocaust is 6 million jews, 5 million others. So in Hitler's scale of race heirarchy, Jews were first in his line of fire but they certainly werent alone. I think because Jews represented a sizeable minority of the population in Poland and Russia, and that just happened to be where Hitler wanted his 'living space', we can't get away from linking the killing of Jews to the expansion of territory. I'd be willing to agree that expansion of territory was not the only factor in Hitler's targetting of the Jews, but I do believe it was a factor.

[nectarsis]

Changing your wording to fit I see.  No one denies it prob was ONE of the reasons (though far from necessary), but they were used for scapegoats long before any territorial expansion occurred.  Plus sizable minority, still leaves the majority, but they were ok (at the time).   Also if we go by those figures 6 million of ONE group, the other five of many, many other groups is far from =/=.

Regardless of spin....the tactics, and reasoning (much less VERY different times, places, population, land areas in question, etc, etc) of Hitler vs American settlers are so far apart it's barely comparable.

[rag-time4]

Changing your wording to fit I see.  No one denies it prob was ONE of the reasons (though far from necessary), but they were used for scapegoats long before any territorial expansion occurred.  Plus sizable minority, still leaves the majority, but they were ok (at the time).   Also if we go by those figures 6 million of ONE group, the other five of many, many other groups is far from =/=.

Regardless of spin....the tactics, and reasoning (much less VERY different times, places, population, land areas in question, etc, etc) of Hitler vs American settlers are so far apart it's barely comparable.

My initial wording was that Germany wanted to do something similar to what the US did, in terms of territorial expansion. Without any spin, tactics, etc... the root of the issue, as I see it, is a political strategy of replacing / relocating one population group with another population group. If I'm changing wording it's because you're getting into differences in the details, which I wasn't talking about when I said that I thought the US policy of expansion into Native American land was similar to the Nazi policy of expanding into the land of Jews and other Eastern Europeans.

[PCEngineHell]

You're right, what he said and what he actually believes may certainly be two different things. Nobody asked him what points of the Nazis he did believe in lol ... I have to admit I'm curious what ideas he would admit to agreeing with.

Why, who the fuck cares how far his beliefs as a wannabe Nazi racist goes, or which parts of the Master Plan he was ok with or not ok with? Why would you want to be concerned with it? It doesn't mater if he was fine with Crystal Night, but not cool with the death camps. It doesn't matter if he was cool with packing Jews into ghettos and leaving them to starve slowly over killing them faster in death-camps after working them like slaves for a few weeks. It was all bad, that's all that matters. Morally, you cant sit there and say that there was any positive benefits to the ruler-ship of the Nazi Party, or the SA or SS. Nor positive beliefs for that matter.

Whatever supposed positives that were reaped by the German population from that political party were at the total expense of Jews and others property, and eventually, their lives, right down to their corpses gold fillings. The Nazi party brought unity to Germany and Austria sure. But only by lying and making out the Jews, among others, to be the enemy of the economy, and the nation and its unity. They didn't just sit there at all those national conventions and tell people to hold hands and sing songs of merry about how all the races should unite as one for economic and political change. Before Hitler came to complete power people knew what he was about in Germany. No one cared. Everyone wanted someone to blame for the state of things, and someone to act their vengeance out for them, and the Jews politically made a great scapegoat, universally hated, ready to be robbed and exploited before finally being put to death. If you could ever describe someone as being considered a natural resource to be plundered, like oil or coal, sadly, the Jews were it.

[nectarsis]

BIG difference...the settlers coming over to America didn't have the "let's wipe X group off the planet/blame them for everything wrong"  like Hitler/a GOOD chunk of the German population did...so once again far from the same.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Plus, we've got casinos now, so that all worked out.

[jlued686]

agree that we do indeed agree to the rules when we join. My issue is that we can still enforce the rules while emphasizing liberty. We can do this with a more relaxed approach to moderating. Far from zero consequence, being relaxed in moderating allows for more open criticism / questioning / attack of members, so it can be even more important to have a strong sense of decorum with how you treat others, since no holds will be barred in how others respond to you.

Honestly, I don't know what your point is. Nobody is suggesting we turn these forums into a nanny state, so there's no need to get all Tea Party on the subject. The whole reason I started this thread, and the whole reason it took on 12 pages, is because forum members - who have been here contributing for years - were tired of people like RegalSin carpet-bombing this place with absolute bullshit for months with zero consequence other than, "Well, if he mentions kid-fucking again maybe I'll ban him."

This isn't a first amendment issue that requires a shallow free speech debate. This is about once in a while taking out somebody who consistently pisses on everyone's good time. The people who were banned had ZERO interest in contributing here. They were here solely to troll, annoy people, and disrupt conversations. That should be "protected"? Horse shit.

My point is, I think your call for more militant mods is in fact a call for a nanny state. You seem to want to have a mod that you can turn to when you feel offended. I say we'd all be better off if we took responsibility for our own feelings and called people out when they offend us.

Regal was carpet bombing you say? Why not ignore or skip if the first line or two dont catch you? Why resort to banning? Regal did indeed seem genuinely interested in the PCE, and xray may have been as well since he seemed to show up here with a turbo-related project... After his (deserved) reception, xray lost interest.

A free speech debate is never shallow for someone with a deep commitment to it as a principle and way of life. I agree this isnt a 1st amendment issue, since were not dealing with government. But I do think it is a free speech debate that gets to the core issue of how we should handle free speech on this forum. I'm for building a community where its near impossible to get banned. I think liberty works better.

It has NOTHING to do with me being "offended". I don't get offended. I don't have time for that bullshit. 19 people were ignoring RegalSin. Some people said they came to the forum less because of him. And I'm sure Aaron (the owner of this site) would've been less than pleased to know that a dude who espoused kiddie porn was hanging out on his site.

I think you're letting your political/societal views confuse the fact that this is a fucking videogame forum! This isn't a bunch of guys wanting to be coddled by babysitters so their precious sensibilities can be protected. It's simply a group of people getting together saying, "This person is a fucking worthless asshole. Let's chuck him out of here." If a group of people were hanging out together, say at a weekly poker party, and one of them kept interjecting with asinine bullshit - including spouting racist bullshit and kiddie porn propaganda - you wouldn't be like, "Let's keep hanging out with Jim. Sure, he's a fucking psycho and annoys the shit out of us, but it's his right to do so." No. You'd say, "Jim, get the fuck out of my house."

For God's sake, man. This isn't about "liberty". As many have said before, being a part of this forum isn't a "right". Nowhere in the constitution does it say, "As an American, you are guaranteed access to the pcengine-fx.com forum community."

Plus, we've got casinos now, so that all worked out.

This made me laugh.