So who is getting this new PC Engine Flash Cart?

[MotherGunner]

http://www.ic2005.com/html/2005/show-40.htm


Saw the above link in another post here, and it piqued my interest real quick.

Has anybody bought one yet?

[rolins]

I'm waiting for their 128M card. Can't wait to play Magical Chase on my TE.

[Spector]

http://www.ic2005.com/html/2005/show-40.htm


Saw the above link in another post here, and it piqued my interest real quick.

Has anybody bought one yet?

Needless to say, as the person that posted the original link, I'll be getting one. Definitely worth it.    

[Seldane]

Never! It is insanely expensive and I can get all the hu-cards I would ever want for that kind of money.

Here are some arguments against it:

- You don't get a nice collection to look at.
- Want to steal games? Go ahead!
- Buying one will encourage those scumbags to produce other similiar (ILLEGAL) products! Those damn pirates!! They're probably producing similiar things for GBA and NDS.

[Spector]

Never! It is insanely expensive and I can get all the hu-cards I would ever want for that kind of money.

But as you said yourself in another topic, you're not really into the Hu-Card games. It's a neat space-saving way of playing anything that was released in that format. But yeah, legally... a grey area.

[OldRover]

The legality is a very non-subject, especially considering NEC abandoned the scene years ago and no longer cares...of course, pirating games is a subject left to the individual companies that own the copyrights but the hardware itself is of no real concern to us in terms of it being legal or not.

[Spector]

The legality is a very non-subject, especially considering NEC abandoned the scene years ago and no longer cares...of course, pirating games is a subject left to the individual companies that own the copyrights but the hardware itself is of no real concern to us in terms of it being legal or not.

You're right - I never thought about it that way. If the Flash Card was sold with ROMs on it, then of course it would be illegal, but on its own it isn't.

[OldRover]

I forgot to mention something else as well...the startup code for the machine is kept in the software...this flash cart wouldn't contain any of NEC's proprietary code. Those of us who develop new PCE games are less legal than this cart is.

[Seldane]

Keep in mind what is being encouraged when you buy these flash carts. GBA and NDS flash carts are being developed by the same manufacturer. Scumbags.

[MotherGunner]

Hey Im all for against piracy.  However,  I think it boils down to the individual.  Will getting a flash cart hurt the now dead companies?   Does buying a legit game make those companies money anymore?  The answer to both is no.  

I love japanese games, but did I ever mod my ps2 to play them?  Of course not, I went out and bought a japanese system.  

These games are now too old to make anyone a profit.  By getting a flash cart for me at least is another line of defense in preserving the great turbo games that I love.  

There is going to be a time where even breaking out the hucard to play is going to be too delicate.   I would rather have a flashcart lying around just to get my fix and thus allowing me to preserve my collectible hucards in sealed envelopes.  

All for $160.  Hell I paid just under that for Dungeon Explorer and Dracula X combined.

And the only person that profited was the scumbag reseller on Ebay that drives up the prices.

If anything.  Look at it this way Seldane,  MAYBE this flash cart will drive collector prices down, allowing ALL of us to be able to get the hucards we want at a reasonable price! : )

[esteban]

The legality is a very non-subject, especially considering NEC abandoned the scene years ago and no longer cares...of course, pirating games is a subject left to the individual companies that own the copyrights but the hardware itself is of no real concern to us in terms of it being legal or not.

You're right - I never thought about it that way. If the Flash Card was sold with ROMs on it, then of course it would be illegal, but on its own it isn't.

Actually, it depends on what country you live in, since copyright and IP laws vary greatly. In some countries/territories (i.e. Hong Kong), rather than going after the folks who own pirated content (ROMS, movies, music), they go after the "bigger fish" -- namely, the folks who produce / distribute hardware that "faciliates" pirating ("sharing") of copyrighted material.

Thankfully, here in the States, IIRC, the law acknowledges that hardware can have legitimate uses (i.e. developing new games). 99% of the folks who get flash carts use them for pirated ROMS, of course, but at least U.S. law doesn't criminalize the hardware.

Correct me if I am mistaken on any of these points.

As folks here know, I prefer real hardware and only play games I own (well, 99.99% of the time). That said, the prospect of playing ROMS on real hardware is very tempting. I can see the appeal.  

Thankfully, I own so many games that I've barely sunken my teeth into, my gameplaying schedule is solidly booked for the next few years (decade?) ... no moral dilemmas for me!

[rolins]

- You don't get a nice collection to look at.

You can always buy the flash card and still buy other games if you want. It won't hinder your collection. In fact it will help you decide which games to buy.

- Want to steal games? Go ahead!

It doesn't encourage you to steal. I've owned several flash cards in the past and it makes me buy the games because I love playing them so much.

And if it wasn't for flash cards I wouldn't have been able to play an english-translation of Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake on my MSX2+ computer; and that game cost ~$200.

- Buying one will encourage those scumbags to produce other similiar (ILLEGAL) products! Those damn pirates!! They're probably producing similiar things for GBA and NDS.

I hope Neoflash's products will force Tototek to get off their ass, and start producing better products. Their TTK pce card is cheaper but Neoflash's product looks so much cooler.

[OldRover]

Keep in mind what is being encouraged when you buy these flash carts. GBA and NDS flash carts are being developed by the same manufacturer. Scumbags.

I'd rather use these flash cards to test new code on actual hardware.

The company makes the product. The user uses it for whatever. Whose problem is it if the user uses it for something illegal...the user's or the company's? On that same token...should we hold Smith And Wesson accountable for all murders and other gun-related crimes committed using their guns?

[VestCunt]

I don't know, i haven't used an emulator or played any roms since the 90's but i don't really have anything against them.  I think of it the same way i think of downloading music or making tapes--I spend my usual amount of money on Cds/LPs every month and whatever "free" music i get allows me to check out more bands than i could ever afford.  I think tapes, CDr's and MP3's suck and i do everything i can to get songs on a real format and support the artists i care about.
Just as there are old out of print records that i'll never be able to find or afford, there are games like Magical Chase and Bonk 3 that are way out of my range.  I hate playing console games on my computer and for that reason i might pick up one of these Flash Cards.

Keep in mind what is being encouraged when you buy these flash carts. GBA and NDS flash carts are being developed by the same manufacturer. Scumbags.

I put people who pirate mainstream, contemporary video games down there with the idiots who download Top 40 music (i'm a music snob if you can't tell).  I have no idea why they'd want to do such a thing but certainly don't feel any sympathy for Nintendo or Sony.  It's not like they're feeble little mom and pop companies that would go under without our grassroots support.

[Seldane]

On that same token...should we hold Smith And Wesson accountable for all murders and other gun-related crimes committed using their guns?

Not really, but what if guns didn't exist? Sure, people would still murder, but I'm sure things would be a lot better if guns didn't exist.

That company makes flash carts because they know people want to pirate games. Nobody buys flash carts to be able to play "homebrew." (Except you and a few others.)  

If all people thought piracy was wrong, nobody would buy flash carts. If there were no such thing as flash carts and other similiar products (mod chips, etc), (console-related) piracy wouldn't be anywhere near as big as it is today.

[OldRover]

I don't even think it's all that big of a deal...throughout the history of our industry, I cannot think of a single game development company that has gone under because of game software piracy...

[TurboXray]

I'd rather use these flash cards to test new code on actual hardware.  

Totally agree. I bought the Tototek card awhile back for dev reasons. Except for turbo express, I couldn't see using it for roms. IMO emulators piped to the TV look much better than the real thing thanks to filtering, nice color gamma corrections, and what not (480p btw not 480i).  Back in the day, I always had to turn the sharpness down when play my TG/Duo and then turn it back up when playing SNES/MD.

Not really, but what if guns didn't exist? Sure, people would still murder, but I'm sure things would be a lot better if guns didn't exist.

I can empathize, but getting rid of guns would just be a band-aid fix. Actually it wouldn't fix anything. The problem lies in the a maturity(or the lack) of the human race, let alone the problems with in the different levels of society.

[Keranu]

It's a pretty cool device, but I won't get it because it's rather expensive and I collect games. I still do my fair share of pirating, but I try to collect games. This would be a awesome device to buy though if I were to test all of these PCE programmer's demos on actual hardware with or to play any super rare/expensive games I might not ever get ;) .

[MotherGunner]

Awesome points everyone!  Keep those ideas coming.  This is becoming an interesting thread!

Having heard all opinions, I believe that none of us here would use the PCE Flash cart for "Pirate" reasons.  We all have our own idea of how we are going to use it.

Even if I get one, Im still going to buy games.  And yes Bonk 3 and Dynastic Hero (my current CD want) are at the top of my list.

In the mean time, I can't afford to go as high as $300 plus.  So for now I have to settle for a device such as this flash cart.

Even if we all went out and bought more turbo games, who benefits?  Does the industry?

As stated before in another thread.  I hope that companies such as Messiah create new hardward for our turbo games.  It would be cool to see a "Generation NEC" (as opposed to NeX)

[Seldane]

I don't even think it's all that big of a deal...throughout the history of our industry, I cannot think of a single game development company that has gone under because of game software piracy...

There are plenty! The only one I can think of right now is Mantra (a Korean company). They went bankrupt for piracy and nothing else.

[Spector]

Forget about software houses going under due to piracy - what about whole games systems? The Dreamcast was severely crippled by the lack of protection from CD-R rips.

[_Paul]

Forget about software houses going under due to piracy - what about whole games systems? The Dreamcast was severely crippled by the lack of protection from CD-R rips.

Yet the PlayStation thrived despite a massive amount of pirated games.

[MotherGunner]

Forget about software houses going under due to piracy - what about whole games systems? The Dreamcast was severely crippled by the lack of protection from CD-R rips.

Yet the PlayStation thrived despite a massive amount of pirated games.

Agreed, The Playstation thrived, and Nintendo remains a niche market.

[TurboXray]

Forget about software houses going under due to piracy - what about whole games systems? The Dreamcast was severely crippled by the lack of protection from CD-R rips.

CD-R rips were not the downfall to the Dreamcast. Dreamcast GD-ROM to CD-R rips were pretty much took off after 2002.

[CrackTiger]

Although people can argue whether or not "piracy", if you even want to call it that, -when people download and play games for free as opposed to paying for illegal copies... of long 'dead' games for 'dead' systems...

-there'd be alot less of either if companies not only spent the 1% development cost(compared to a modern game) to put out some real "classic" collections, with real extras/special features.

First of all, whether there is a high concentration of crap or good games, we should be seeing more like 100 old moldy games on a single compilation, not a dozen or less.

And there should be all kinds of crazy options, from game genie-type tricks to improved framerates, and slowdown/flicker elimination to real graphical overhauls.

They don't need to redraw the art(for alternate versions), but how about upping the colors and possbibly the resolutions and PCE style CD quality soundtracks would also be nice.

I'd also like to see as many demos, builds, variants, etc of games as well as every scrap of pre & post-production art that a studio can find.

And would it really cost more than the price of a "real" game to license all the other games which a developer doesn't own rights to, for an old platform... so we get an Atari/Intellivision/etc collection that actually features every game ever made?

Capcom got away with as few games on their collection(still more than some others) since they've got so many high quality games that hold up better than other developers' titles. And at least they gave us a few features, although I didn't need nor will I ever watch the anime thats on the disc.

I'd like to buy the Tototek flash card some day and I will be using it to run some of the few decent HuCards roms that I happen to not own yet(which I already play on my MAME cabinet anyway).

But I also already own like 300-400 original PCE games and am not going to slowdown collecting them anytime soon.

[CrackTiger]

Oh yeah, to the people who made some comments about scumbags ripping off game companies...

-don't forget that game companies rip each other off every chance they get, push the boundaries of what legal in different parts of the world, screw individuals in the development community who actually create hits & classics, put out and market immoral software to children and hardware manufactures try to monopolize the market by whatever means necassary(how many times has Nintendo been fined?).

Don't forget about EA, the one company that actually got caught enforcing disgusting labour "conditions".

You think that any of the companies that 'licensed' out Tetris before Alexey Pajitnov escaped the USSR put aside a fund and/or just cut him a check and sent him 30 million dollars as soon as he got out of there?

Is the Generation NEX moral and un-pirate-enabling just because of a technicality its now no longer illegal in some countries?

Too many business' don't give an eff about whats moral and often about whats even legal and just try to do whatever they think they can get away with.

They're all scumbags, the pirate-enablers and too many game companies that happen to be crooked when it suits them, but its not like we're dealing with a single one sided evil here.

[Spector]

Forget about software houses going under due to piracy - what about whole games systems? The Dreamcast was severely crippled by the lack of protection from CD-R rips.

Yet the PlayStation thrived despite a massive amount of pirated games.

But doesn't a Playstation need to be chipped to play CD-R games?

[VestCunt]

Thank you Black Tiger!  great points.
I know very little about the new generation of systems these days, and maybe there are some cool, under-dog developers out there, but Working Designs was the last one game company i actually cared about and might have gotten pissed at people pirating their software.  With WD gone, i don't care what kids do these days.

As far as the flash cart goes, Keranu summed it up exactly:
1)  It's expensive
2)  I collect games


and yes Spector, a Playstation does need to be modified to play CDr's or imports.  i'm not sure if it was always like or if they installed that protection after a couple years

[Spector]

and yes Spector, a Playstation does need to be modified to play CDr's or imports.  i'm not sure if it was always like or if they installed that protection after a couple years

Well that's my point about the Dreamcast. The DC didn't need modded, which was a bizarre decision. If the Playstation had been like that in 1998 when CD burning was relatively cheap and commonplace, then it would have been commercially damaged, no doubt about it.

[pixeljunkie]

meh, I won't get one purely because I enjoy the hunt for games almost as much as playing them. Honestly....I did the GBA flash cart thing. I did the downloaded Dreamcast games things....totally takes the winds out of whatever sail that system was for me. I do NOT want to get burned out on PCE games. Plus, most Hucards can be had for reasonable prices....save a few [Magical Chase as was mentioned] like various show exclusive shmups that are only like one level anyway. I'll stick to the real deal.

[TurboXray]

The DC didn't need modded, which was a bizarre decision.

That's because the games were on a proprietary format - GD-ROM not CD-ROM. You can't copy/read a GD-ROM from a PC cd drive.

 The playstation always had the copyprotection system, but later decided to write additional logic into there games to detect if a system was operating with a mod chip or not.

 I don't think the adoption of the copyprotection scheme was in response to CD-Rs at the time, but to the pirate/bootleg companys passing games off as the real thing, as CD-R drives were extremely expensive in '94/95 - about $1500-2000 and the CD-R media was pretty horrible at the time. Bootleggers were the main focus.

[Spector]

The DC didn't need modded, which was a bizarre decision.

That's because the games were on a proprietary format - GD-ROM not CD-ROM. You can't copy/read a GD-ROM from a PC cd drive.

Yeah I know that, but what good is that when a few months after the console's release, there are CD-R bootlegs of all the main titles? The best one was "Half Life" - you could get that even though the game hadn't been finished. The GD-ROM format was a crazy idea. It only held 1GIG, it was hardly DVD in storage size, and since the games on it rarely filled the whole disc, bootleggers found a way to compress the data to fit it snugly on a 700MB CD-R. Also, by 1999, the internet was fully upon us and no longer just a geek's domain, and these rips were being sold openly on it if you knew where to look. Sadly for Sega, too many people did.

[OldRover]

That was a bad design on Sega's part. Not only that, but Sony's low-blow marketing techniques played a major role in the downfall of the DC...actually, most believe that it was the sole cause.