Reprint?

OldRover · 12/26/2013, 12:20 PM

OK so I've had a LOT of people asking me if I would do a second pressing of MSR. It's not something I've really given any serious consideration to until now, as Keranu is just about out of them as well.

Just a simple repress wouldn't be sufficient though; if I was to send this to press a second time, I would make some improvements. The game has a couple of flaws in it that were not caught during the beta test phases which I would fix, and I'd probably make a few other changes as well.

Thoughts?

NecroPhile · 12/26/2013, 12:23 PM

If there's enough initial demand to offset printing costs, I'd reprint it as is; there are no fatal flaws, so your time is better spent working on new stuffs. Besides, that's not a bug it's a feature!

Mzo · 12/26/2013, 12:49 PM

It sounds like a good idea, but some of the initial run people might be a bit upset over a second, better print run coming up so soon after.

If you're gonna do more, I'd say more of the same. Put me down for one, I wasn't paying attention and missed out.

esteban · 12/26/2013, 01:06 PM

Quote from: The Old Rover on 12/26/2013, 12:20 PMOK so I've had a LOT of people asking me if I would do a second pressing of MSR. It's not something I've really given any serious consideration to until now, as Keranu is just about out of them as well.

Just a simple repress wouldn't be sufficient though; if I was to send this to press a second time, I would make some improvements. The game has a couple of flaws in it that were not caught during the beta test phases which I would fix, and I'd probably make a few other changes as well.

Thoughts?

I have no problem with a reprint.

Yes, you should tweak things—why not? It's a perfect opportunity to make MSR closer to your original vision.

No, you're not going to refresh all the artwork...you're going to fix a few hiccups in the logic/playability. 100% of the game will be accessible.

Yes.

OldRover · 12/26/2013, 01:10 PM

Quote from: guest on 12/26/2013, 12:23 PMthere are no fatal flaws

There are two fatal flaws, actually... one in SD2 and one in the bonus game. Both are stupid-easy to fix, I just wish they'd been caught during our testing phases.

VestCunt · 12/26/2013, 02:19 PM

Do a reprint, but don't fix anything. The game works. Send it to the presser. You put 8+ years into that game and it's great, don't waste another second on it. As NecroPhile said, your time is better spent doing new things. Learn from your mistakes, but keep looking ahead. Trying to perfect old projects is a Pandora's Box that will turn you into George Lucas. As soon as you open those old files you'll never stop finding "one more thing" to fix.

esteban · 12/26/2013, 02:49 PM

Quote from: guest on 12/26/2013, 02:19 PMDo a reprint, but don't fix anything. The game works. Send it to the presser. You put 8+ years into that game and it's great, don't waste another second on it. As NecroPhile said, your time is better spent doing new things. Learn from your mistakes, but keep looking ahead. Trying to perfect old projects is a Pandora's Box that will turn you into George Lucas. As soon as you open those old files you'll never stop finding "one more thing" to fix.

I was talking to Rover in PM and we both agreed that a 4th and 5th quest will be added to MSR. They will feature ARPG elements (think Neutopia) and scrap the menu-based fighting system.

It will take a bit longer, yes, but it will be worth it.

NecroPhile · 12/26/2013, 03:11 PM

Quote from: The Old Rover on 12/26/2013, 01:10 PMThere are two fatal flaws, actually... one in SD2 and one in the bonus game. Both are stupid-easy to fix, I just wish they'd been caught during our testing phases.

I meant fatal as in "unplayable for everyone". Most peeps will never run into any trouble.

TheClash603 · 12/26/2013, 06:03 PM

My favorite game series of all-time is Street Fighter, so I guess I can't complain about a more balanced / tweaked game coming out shortly after the original.

Just make sure you call it Championship Edition, and then you haver my blessing.

...though, if it delays any other projects significantly, DON'T DO IT!

TurboXray · 12/26/2013, 06:16 PM

Old Rov, if you added something more than just a list of bug fixes - then I'd say go for it. I dunno, make a simple sprite/tile hack remix mode. Maybe all Bonk or such (a mix of TG related graphics) graphic content. Maybe change some of the dialogue, to make a TG16 tribute parody. That way, people that bought the original might have an incentive to purchase this again (thus all 500 or so copies of the 2nd print won't go to waste).

OldRover · 12/26/2013, 06:31 PM

Anything beyond a few simple bugfixes would probably require a substantial effort. Changing even one bit of dialogue can throw off an entire region since the text portions were done before I wrote a script compiler. Nowadays, I have twoscript, which is used for Eternal Silence, where making text revisions is just a matter of changing the script and running the script compiler. Changing text in MSR as it stands requires running the script through the very basic text-to-data converter and updating every single entry point by hand in the source code. It's not a trivial operation and it carries a high chance of error. If I wanted to implement the twoscript interpreter, I could... but I'd have to redo every script in the game. I have no problem with that, but I don't want anything to get in the way of existing active productions, especially seeing as we are so close to wrapping up Lucretia.

(For those of you who like dev trivia, here's some for ya... twoscript was written for a project codenamed TWOS... hence twoscript. The script compiler is based on monoscript, a similar script compiler developed previously for Project MONOLITH. twoscript is much more advanced in terms of overall scripting functionality but lacks monoscript's multiple language ability.)

Xak · 12/26/2013, 08:16 PM

Quote from: TheClash603 on 12/26/2013, 06:03 PMMy favorite game series of all-time is Street Fighter, so I guess I can't complain about a more balanced / tweaked game coming out shortly after the original.

Just make sure you call it Championship Edition, and then you haver my blessing.

MO HO HO HO

I say do it dude. You spent a fkin decade on that project. Hellz yeah do it. My Captain Tsubasa 3 would be #1 in DL's if I had released it in 2009 when originally was done with it.

Totally do it rove, the fix alone would be cool, get some alternate artwork for CD and box and you got a whole new 2nd run!!!! SEXXXXografx

NightWolve · 12/26/2013, 10:04 PM

If you think there's enough demand to recover the reprint costs and possibly profit afterwards, then go for it.

Quote from: guest on 12/26/2013, 02:19 PMTrying to perfect old projects is a Pandora's Box that will turn you into George Lucas.

Heh, interesting analogy.

Bernie · 12/27/2013, 11:57 AM

Hell man, go for it.

If you do change anything, I will buy it. I never ran into issues with the game myself tho, other than the occasional lag during load times.

CrackTiger · 12/27/2013, 12:12 PM

It doesn't matter if there are any changes to the game (just tell people the bugs are the fault of their hardware). All that matters is that it says "REPRINT EDITION" across the front cover.

OldRover · 12/27/2013, 01:49 PM

facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10202398454269987

VestCunt · 12/27/2013, 02:52 PM

The problem with new editions is you can't gouge on the price. Better to call it "Mysterious Song Plus" or "Deluxe" a la Phantasy Star on the Game Cube. That will bring the gamers back for a second purchase as well as the collectors AND you can price it higher than the original.

OldRover · 12/27/2013, 02:57 PM

I don't see the lack of ability to gouge on the price as a "problem".

I've never been one for gouging... I implemented several measures to cut gouging off at the ballsack from the first day of release, and it's kept working now 16 months after it was released (today actually marks 16 months since MSR's official release date). I'm certainly not interested in releasing this for more than the original cost, if it happens at all.

VestCunt · 12/27/2013, 04:21 PM

perhaps I should have used the

Bardoly · 01/15/2014, 12:28 PM

I would say go ahead and run a "second edition" with any fixes and any upgrades that y'all have thought of, but then as others have said, just close the book on future revisions (unless you put it on a compilation disk or something similar).

Arkhan Asylum · 01/15/2014, 12:35 PM

I wouldn't reprint the game with any fixes or upgrades, because it punches everyone who bought the game in the first place right in the dick.

TheClash603 · 01/15/2014, 06:25 PM

Quote from: guest on 01/15/2014, 12:35 PMI wouldn't reprint the game with any fixes or upgrades, because it punches everyone who bought the game in the first place right in the dick.

If the demand is really there, you could give all the confirmed buyers of the first game a $5 discount

wyndcrosser · 01/16/2014, 06:03 PM

Honestly? I would love to see a face lift if possible for the characters and npc sprites and potentially new graphical artwork, I know deviantart has lots of arts who would be willing to help.

If you do a "Plus" or Deluxe version, this would make me purchase another copy.

Keith Courage · 01/18/2014, 12:08 AM

I agree about any fixes or upgrades being a Punch to the Dick for anyone who bought the original.

roflmao · 01/18/2014, 12:25 AM

Quote from: Keith Courage on 01/18/2014, 12:08 AMI agree about any fixes or upgrades being a Punch to the Dick for anyone who bought the original.

Thirded.

Lochlan · 01/18/2014, 03:22 AM

I would happily buy this game again with any fixes or upgrades, and would not in any way consider it a punch to my dick. I'm also amazed that a TG/PCE fan posting in this forum would say as much. (Well, maybe not Arkhan--he is quite the bombastic fellow.)

First of all I am grateful to anyone developing for the system, and am ready to shell out money on any product as high quality as Mysterious Song. I bought the original game, I will buy a plus version.

Second, how am I harmed if there's a "plus" version? I got to play the original before any hypothetical plus version gets released, I don't see how a plus version can take that away from me or somehow retroactively degrade that experience. The only way I can see this as a "negative" is for those who were hoping to sit on Mysterious Song and flip it on eBay.

Third, aren't improvements and fixes...a good thing? Wouldn't you want to play an even better version of a given game? Maybe you guys think all the subsequent versions of SF2 were lame? I loved them all.

I think a plus version is a great way to generate new interest and is also reasonable low-hanging revenue for a tiny garage dev. I say: sell your product 30 different ways if you think it will be a profitable venture. I will continue to support Rover's ventures as a customer, and look forward to any product released by him or any other PCE dev.

esteban · 01/18/2014, 04:49 AM

Quote from: Lochlan on 01/18/2014, 03:22 AMI would happily buy this game again with any fixes or upgrades, and would not in any way consider it a punch to my dick. I'm also amazed that a TG/PCE fan posting in this forum would say as much. (Well, maybe not Arkhan--he is quite the bombastic fellow.)

First of all I am grateful to anyone developing for the system, and am ready to shell out money on any product as high quality as Mysterious Song. I bought the original game, I will buy a plus version.

Second, how am I harmed if there's a "plus" version? I got to play the original before any hypothetical plus version gets released, I don't see how a plus version can take that away from me or somehow retroactively degrade that experience. The only way I can see this as a "negative" is for those who were hoping to sit on Mysterious Song and flip it on eBay.

Third, aren't improvements and fixes...a good thing? Wouldn't you want to play an even better version of a given game? Maybe you guys think all the subsequent versions of SF2 were lame? I loved them all.

I think a plus version is a great way to generate new interest and is also reasonable low-hanging revenue for a tiny garage dev. I say: sell your product 30 different ways if you think it will be a profitable venture. I will continue to support Rover's ventures as a customer, and look forward to any product released by him or any other PCE dev.

You made several solid points.

I have already supported a reprint, but I wonder if there is a simple solution for folks who feel like they are being punched in the dick region?

I don't think it would be too much of a burden for Rover & Company to evaluate the feasibility of an "upgrade" path for folks who already purchased the game.

I believe someone already suggested this: a discount/bonus/credit/tchotchke for folks who feel slighted.

It could get creative: if you are the the original purchaser and want the reprint, you will pay full price, but I will write, sing and dedicate a song to you (you may suggest content of lyrics and I would recycle music from PCE/TG-16 games). Rover doesn't lose any money, the purchaser gets a totally unique bonus. I'd post the song on YouTube if the original purchaser so wished. Or I could doodle something.

Anyway, I'm sure there is a feasible solution to this.

Lochlan · 01/18/2014, 04:42 PM

Quote from: esteban on 01/18/2014, 04:49 AMI believe someone already suggested this: a discount/bonus/credit/tchotchke for folks who feel slighted.

The problem with this is that there has to be a system in place of verifying original ownership, which is going to add time to the whole process. Maybe Rover & co. don't mind doing that? If it were me, I wouldn't want to put extra hours into the project like that--but maybe that is offset by the relative ease of releasing a product of this nature?

I think the way to solve this "problem"--which basically amounts to a loyalty reward for your existing customer base--is to include registration cards with products. Then you've front-loaded most of the work of data collection on your customers. And a reg. card wouldn't have to necessarily be a nice stiff cardboard one (which would cost a few shekels to add to your print run), it could just be a print-out with the invoice included during shipment. Obviously the reg. card boat was missed with Mysterious Song--although here I can offer the suggestion of allowing previous customers to rip off the back page of the Mysterious Song manual and send it in for a $5 credit on the new one :p

Also: a plus version is probably priced lower anyway, right? Usually reprints and updates of that nature tend to sell for less than the MSRP of the original product (not always, but often). If that ends up being the case here, then it might be cheap enough that nobody is too worried about saving a few bucks for the new version?

Quote from: esteban on 01/18/2014, 04:49 AMIt could get creative: if you are the the original purchaser and want the reprint, you will pay full price, but I will write, sing and dedicate a song to you (you may suggest content of lyrics and I would recycle music from PCE/TG-16 games). Rover doesn't lose any money, the purchaser gets a totally unique bonus. I'd post the song on YouTube if the original purchaser so wished. Or I could doodle something.

lol

_Paul · 01/18/2014, 05:28 PM

Don't be George Lucas.

TheClash603 · 01/18/2014, 06:03 PM

I got an idea... the plus version could be a promotional piece for part 2. Since the original game is sold out, that definitely means that a lot of people will skip part 2 without playing the first.

As it would be difficult to verify the original purchasers, as stated before, I think this is the way to go. Do not release MSR+ and then part 2 a year later... have both games essentially ready to go. Make it so you can order either MSR+ for $X, part 2 for $X, or a pack of both games in the "MSR collection bundle" for a slight discount. If you put this bundle in a special case or give it a little promo item, then it isn't rebuying the same game at all.

I think the package approach making the game the MSR Collection makes it so no one who bought the first can complain of "punched in the dick." I know I won't complain either way, but since some people seem to be upset, this may be a fair way to keep people happy?

td741 · 01/18/2014, 06:28 PM

Can I request the possibility of paying for an alternate shipping method if the reprint occurs...

(Never did get my order for the first print even after 3 attempts... Don't know if people at the post office really wanted to play them...)

OldRover · 01/18/2014, 06:37 PM

Mysterious Song is a trilogy, so it I was to do a combination set, I would want it to be all three games in one package.

I think I am going to hold off on the idea of an improved version for now.

NightWolve · 01/18/2014, 06:38 PM

I understand both sides here, and the only thing I can think of is a free patch for the old disc or something (I'm a patch producer myself, so that's what I know, heh). You'll only miss out on the new packaging and what not.

OldRover · 01/18/2014, 09:03 PM

If this does go to a reprint, I am going to use the corrected ISO. It still plays and looks the same, but some load times are slightly less due to further optimization of the game code (especially in the battle program), and the fatal flaw in SD2 was corrected. It is not unlike normal commercial companies to release revised versions of their software (example: how many builds of Final Fantasy 6 are there? at least two... probably more), especially for regional releases (example: the US release of Portrait Of Ruin has a highly exploitable bug that was corrected in the European release).

wyndcrosser · 01/18/2014, 10:09 PM

Could we get a new main menu screen, or packaging over all?

spenoza · 01/18/2014, 11:55 PM

If I had the patience for classic RPGs any longer, I'd want to buy an updated reprint if possible.

But unless you can fix my recent issues with classic RPGs, my opinion is irrelevant on this topic.

MotherGunner · 01/19/2014, 01:53 AM

I think there is room for a fair compromise. I was fortunate to buy my game off Rove at a significant discount so count me in to pay full price on a potential second edition. Those esteemed forum members who adopted early should be considered for a good discount on a second edition as a reward for preordering and all around loyalty on this beautiful game. I think the game is great and having a second edition would in fact make the original that much more special and allow the influx of our newest members to also enjoy the game. Compromise guys, let's be thankful our community is strong and Rove wants to continue to invest!

roflmao · 01/19/2014, 10:53 PM

When I posted my comment, hopefully it didn't come across as hardcore anti-reprint. However, it would suck to pay full price to then have to pay full price again for an upgraded version. I will get the upgraded version if its released. I've been a supporter of all homebrews since I joined the forums. But if that were the case, I'd definitely feel slighted.

deubeul · 01/20/2014, 10:00 AM

Quote from: TheClash603 on 01/18/2014, 06:03 PMI got an idea... the plus version could be a promotional piece for part 2.

Agree.

CrackTiger · 01/20/2014, 11:52 AM

I am curious if the people against a slightly improved/fixed reprint of Mysterious Song were also vocally against the Meteor Blaster DX reprint, because I only remember encouragement for that one. In fact, people went so far as to offer to pay for it or even do it within the community if bt didn't want to bother himself. The extra content he added was actually an incentive to buy the new version, which like Rover's adjusted Mysterious Song iso, will run better in PCE CD-ROMs.

NecroPhile · 01/20/2014, 12:29 PM

I think people were more interested in it being on a 'real' cd than any minor improvements, plus it being a decade later than the original release probably made a difference.

roflmao · 01/20/2014, 09:35 PM

What NecroPhile said.

And there was a looong period between releases for Meteor Blaster DX. This is, what, a year?

I'd totally purchase a Special Edition of MSII that included an upgraded version of MSI and think that's a great route to go.

Having to purchase a game again that you are now saying is broken and needs an update, after being a supporter of the original release feels like a bitch slap. But if it's an extra for a *new* game, it's a different story.

NightWolve · 01/20/2014, 10:58 PM

Well, what he described is basically patch-worthy. I think others earlier thought this was a slightly redesigned/improved version, the whole George Lucas thing, but it's just a bug fix and speed improvements. He says all he did here is, 1) fix a fatal bug, and 2) improve load times.

The thing about a patch though (if he made one), is you'd have to rip your original disc (with something like TurboRip), apply the patch, then burn a CD-R to get the benefits. Problem is a bunch of people here have the notion that a CD-R will rape the CD lens on original NEC hardware, so they're gonna want an original silver anyway if they care about these 2 improvements. If you know about the fatal bug and can get around it, I guess it's not that critical to you to care about this.

Arkhan Asylum · 01/21/2014, 08:33 AM

This is a great time to do the opposite of the whole Beggar Prince thing.

Everyone who already bought Mysterious Song should be allowed to get a free copy of this reprint with bug fixes, etc.

That's what I'd do if I ever reprinted Insanity with some minor tweak (like his walk speed or something). You'd all get free copies because of the unfortunate case of it being a CD that I can't reburn, and it's not installed so you can't just apply a patch.

If the reprint is to sell copies to people who didn't already buy it and missed out, it shouldn't matter that you're handing out free copies to everyone.

There'd be enough demand to make it worth it for the new buyers without charging people again.

If you're going to have to rely on people buying the game again to break even or make some pizza money, it's clearly not worth doing. Save your time and resources to finish a new game.

ToyMachine78 · 01/21/2014, 07:47 PM

I'd pick one up

Keranu · 01/21/2014, 09:16 PM

I like Nightwolve's patch idea best.

mrhaboobi · 01/22/2014, 02:40 PM

If teh reprint had enough differences then i buy it ( different cover etc ) , i like to support all the homebrew efforts, even if i dont get to play the games as much as i would like anymore i still buy them ( see not all collectors are evil, yes we hoard our games mint in box in plastic cases to protect but we still support homebrew aswell

), end goal is to one day have the time to dabble in development myself.. Perhaps rover you could take a different approach, do a reprint, do whatever changes you want and then publish some more tutorials on how you do some of the crazy stuff, the more basic tutorials and examples that get out the more chance the scene can grow.. i for one would be happy to buy a second print just to get access to insider secrets on how to do stuff.. ;)

MotherGunner · 01/22/2014, 06:05 PM

Rove, have you considered perhaps doing ONLY the CD pressing of the updated game, packing it in white sleeves, and selling at a lower price as you are already saving by not doing another run of booklets, inserts, and cases?

This would allow for those who care to just get the disc and you could establish two pay brackets (Full prices (albeit lower), and a price targeted for early adopters).

esteban · 01/22/2014, 07:15 PM

OK, it's settled then: a synth-pop version of MSR soundtrack will be created for me. Thank you! I'm so friggin' excited.