What were the lifetime sales for the PCE/PCEDuo

[spenoza]

CONSENSUS: I'm glad we finally agreed that CD and HuCARD media belong in the same core PCE library.

I do have to say that when I only had a TG-16, and more recently, when I only had a Core, the CD library certainly didn't FEEL like it was the same library... And when I got the TG-CD add-on, and more recently, when I upgraded to a Duo, suddenly it DID feel like it was all the same library of games.

I don't think there's a straight answer to this. Your library of games is what you can play. Anything you can't play isn't in the core library... your core. This all seems so much like a combination tag-battle over semantics and differing perspectives, and not some ultimate truth. Cause you won't find any of the latter on this forum anywhere (not even under the sofa).

[A Black Falcon]

Getting classifications correct is important though!  It's definitely something I care about. Obviously.

And there in lies your problem. Again, you're conforming the PC-Engine into definition that doesn't accurately describe it, and its library. It's ok to make an exception to the rule; exceptions exist for a reason. Not everything in life can be neatly categorized and factored to a difference. And the PC-Engine and its CD software, have some unique exceptions to add to such a scenario. I and a few others have already listed as to why.

 But you play this semantics game, and when one person corrects or counters you, you side step and bring that point back around to something else to make the point or analogy look invalid. Sometimes, I think you don't even understand the point you're dismissing/deflecting. You're just in automatic dismiss mode. You do make some valid points, but you don't concede or recognize ANY one else's valid points. And I don't mean just here on these forums, either. You're too rigid man. Too rigid.

The idea that the Turbografx is such a special case that the rules that apply to every other console -- consoles and their addons are different, and their libraries should be looked at individually -- don't apply here is nonsense.  Just because NEC switched over to CDs as the main format and released the Duo mid-life it doesn't mean that CDs are the original system!  They're still an addon, just like how the Sega CD portion of the CDX (or X'eye) is an addon to the Genesis even though that's a combo system.

And on that note...

Can't you read?!?

As I said, it doesn't conflict because the cart based system Hudson proposed to Nintendo wasn't the final design of the PCE; it's not a coincidence that the PCE uses NEC parts, that the expansion connector is loaded to the gills, or that its size and appearance matches the CD drive - all three are evidence of NEC's hand in its design.  Also, we're talking about what the NEC / Hudson partnership wanted from the system, so it doesn't matter one iota what Hudson themselves wanted before the partnership even formed.

Basically defeating your own argument here!  So the PCE may really have predated its CD drive, and it started out as a cart/card concept first?  Seems to me that that completely undermines the entire 'well the CD drive was there from minute one and always was intended to be equally important to the HuCard system' line you people are defending...

I didn't say equal in importance, I said it was important period; and just because the CD didn't get 50% of the game releases early on doesn't mean it was unimportant.  Try to reign in your stupid.

Looking at the changing level of support the systems got over time shows how what NEC and Hudson thought the best role for each system (HuCard and CD) was changed over time.

The FX chip was sold separate from the system, connected to the console, and provided substantially more processing power, so how does it not qualify as an add-on?  I see no disclaimer in the definition that says "unless the device can only be used by the game it is contained within".

But that disclaimer is built in to the definition of addon.  If you look at the list of things that all (apart from you people) agree are full console addons, all of them, as I said in my last post, involve some alternate input, either a disc addon, passthrough like the 32X, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_accessory#Add-ons.2FPeripherals
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peripheral

Something like the Super FX is an enhancement chip, not an add-on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_fx

True, some games might not use all the capabilities available, but I'm differentiating based on hardware capabilities not what each specific game did or didn't do.  Outside of redbook tunes, every single game in the PCE library could be done on HuCard (ignoring the exorbitant cost of such large carts); the same can be said of games on FDS, 64DD, etc., but it is untrue for the Sega CD, 32x, etc.

How so?  The 32X basically IS a giant cartridge turned into an addon!  It's the SVP (Genesis Virtua Racing) taken to another level.  And as for the Sega CD, put some scaling and rotation chips in the cart and a giant cart and you could do that on a cartridge too.

Seriously, by your definition most addons aren't addons, while many things which aren't addons are.  It's kind of odd, and there's a reason no internet classification anythings agree with it.  I can understand your logic, but that just isn't the way it works.

CONSENSUS: I'm glad we finally agreed that CD and HuCARD media belong in the same core PCE library.

Of course they're not in the core library.  They do belong in the broader category of TG16/PCE games, though, in the same way that Sega CD and 32X games belong in the broader category of Sega Genesis titles, since those games for the add-ons require the base system to run and thus are certainly a part of its library -- just a separate part.  When adding up games for a system, I think it's reasonable to look at both the total including games for addons, and the totals for each platform separately... or rather, say the total, and then say which portion of that total is for each platform within the greater whole.  Of course, I'd use the standard definition for what an add-on is.

[SamIAm]

This whole argument is too big for me to keep up with, but just to toss in one thing about cart-coprocessors and mappers or whatever: The reason why these don't seem to me to be add-ons is because they're basically transparent to the user, and to me, the user's perspective is paramount. Aside from a fractional increase in price in some cases, there is no difference between buying and playing an "enhanced" cartridge and buying and playing an ordinary one.

I bet somewhere out there is an SNES fan who doesn't even realize that his Star Fox cart has a chip in it. I bet there are LOTS of people who don't realize that Mario Kart has a DSP chip in it. A few people on these forums probably don't even realize that SFII on the PCE has a mapper in it.

Obviously the PCE's CD system is different, and personally, I just can't think of it as anything but an add-on. I don't know, but I'd bet that that's how Japanese people looked at it when it came out in December 1988. I mean, the thing cost freaking $600. And sure, it hardly gave the PCE more than additional storage, but given the size of a typical Hucard, it gave it additional storage a few thousand times over. There's nothing minor about that.

I get that if you had the CD system back in the day, you might have felt like it was all one thing after Hucards disappeared. But in 89, 90 and 91, how many people really looked at the high-priced CD unit and thought "there's the other half of my PC Engine"? Like I said before, if we can't call it an add-on like the Sega CD, then I actually lean further toward calling the PCE-CD an entirely separate console than I do toward saying that the singular "PCE" includes both the base and the CD system. 

But this does mostly boil down to a semantics argument anyway. Truth be told, I often type PCE in any case just because I can't be bothered to add the "-CD" bit.

CONSENSUS: I'm glad we finally agreed that CD and HuCARD media belong in the same core PCE library.

I do have to say that when I only had a TG-16, and more recently, when I only had a Core, the CD library certainly didn't FEEL like it was the same library... And when I got the TG-CD add-on, and more recently, when I upgraded to a Duo, suddenly it DID feel like it was all the same library of games.

I don't think there's a straight answer to this. Your library of games is what you can play. Anything you can't play isn't in the core library... your core. This all seems so much like a combination tag-battle over semantics and differing perspectives, and not some ultimate truth. Cause you won't find any of the latter on this forum anywhere (not even under the sofa).

Well said. I feel the same.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Basically defeating your own argument here!  So the PCE may really have predated its CD drive, and it started out as a cart/card concept first?  Seems to me that that completely undermines the entire 'well the CD drive was there from minute one and always was intended to be equally important to the HuCard system' line you people are defending...

Wow.  You're a real piece of work.  Are you trolling or just mentally challenged?

The PCE was the product of a partnership between NEC and Hudson, and NEC demanded that it include a CD drive at the beginning of that partnership (a.k.a. - day one).  Period.  End of story.

Looking at the changing level of support the systems got over time shows how what NEC and Hudson thought the best role for each system (HuCard and CD) was changed over time.

Which is relevant to nothing.

But that disclaimer is built in to the definition of addon.

No it isn't.  Read the definition to which you linked.

I'm not using your made up "full console add-on" definition to purposely limit the definition of add-on to prove a point.

How so?  The 32X basically IS a giant cartridge turned into an addon!  It's the SVP (Genesis Virtua Racing) taken to another level.  And as for the Sega CD, put some scaling and rotation chips in the cart and a giant cart and you could do that on a cartridge too.

I obviously meant that PCE CD games could be done on HuCards without the need of additional ram or processors.  Duh.

Seriously, by your definition most addons aren't addons....

Not once have I said the PCE CD was not an add-on.  Quit making shit up.

Of course they're not in the core library.  They do belong in the broader category of TG16/PCE games, though...

Which is a 180 degree turn the beginning of this train wreck, when you claimed that there were zero PCE games released after '94. 

I look forward to your response, where you comprehend nothing of what I've said.

[TurboXray]

This whole argument is too big for me to keep up with, but just to toss in one thing about cart-coprocessors and mappers or whatever: The reason why these don't seem to me to be add-ons is because they're basically transparent to the user, and to me, the user's perspective is paramount. Aside from a fractional increase in price in some cases, there is no difference between buying and playing an "enhanced" cartridge and buying and playing an ordinary one.

This is what he does. The origin of the point of bringing up the special chips in the SNES carts, was completely lost because he brings the argument down to semantics, to the point where the original meaning is lost, and he can easily counter argue. It's like trying to hold a slippery fish. A Black Falcon is infamous for doing this on Sega-16, to the point where no one will take him seriously on anything he posts. We're talking pages upon pages of this kind of stuff.

 I'm up for a good argument/debate and I'll probably agree on multiple points of view, even if I'm arguing just one of them. A lot of the time, these arguments are opinion and perspective based anyway. When arguing for credibility towards an opinion or perspective, getting into the nitty gritty of semantics always muddies the waters.


 The point of the argument is this; should the PC-Engine library include both hucard and CD games. The argument against it, is that the CD unit is an addon and therefore shouldn't be included. The reason for this perspective, is that the SegaCD and 32x (the most predominant addons in console history of successful systems, around that era). And the main reason why gamers separate these addons as different game library, is that the addon hardware enhances the games to the point that they aren't representative of the original system's capability. This mostly comes from comparing one system to the other (it isn't a fair comparison). In the case of the PCE, this doesn't apply. PC-Engine CD games, are PCE games; there are no additional graphic processors, co-processors, or straight up new processors. The interface to the medium is different, the core game logic/code is the same. Another reason addons are considered to be a separate library, is that the addon always remained an addon. The addon is a branch of the system, therefore it's a branch of the library. It never replaced the core system; ever. In the perspective of 1988, the CD was an addon. In the perspective of 1992, the CD unit was the system. And if you look at the system from a perspective of 1996, hucards become the subset of the library - but they are still part of the PC-Engine library. Matter of fact, in 1992 when the Duo came out in the US (and I got one on release day), my perspective of hucards immediately changed to that - they became a subset of what was now CD games for the library. The Duo made it apparent; CD games were now the current format.

 There's also this perspective that an addon was never intended to be part of the main system, or vision. That addons are always afterthoughts. And therefore it gives the addon even less credibility. That's not actually an unreasonable point of view. But the PCE system and CD unit were designed together. The CD unit was not some after thought down the road. And I'm sure the Famicom disk drive 'addon' probably had some sort of an influence to this.

 By strict definition, by all means describe the CD unit as an addon. But when it comes categorizing the software for the PC-Engine, characteristics of the CD unit make it different than any other addon in console history. It's VERY hard to talk about PC-Engine games, without talking about hucards and CD games. If all you ever owned, was the hucard only system - then I can see why you wouldn't have this perspective. It's a different perspective for people that own(ed) the Duo, and gamers that grew up with both formats during that era. And for those of us that stuck through it till the end (imported).


 I consider Famicom disk games, to be Famicom games and part of its library. I also consider Majora's Mask part of the N64 library, even though you're forced to purchase an addon pack (ram expansion pack) to play the game.

[CrackTiger]

It wouldn't be a big deal whether or not someone wants to make distinctions about PCE Hu and CD games if retroactively-enthused "retro" game enthusiasts could exercise common sense when diving into 16-bit gen discussions. But forums are full of Genesis or SNES fanboys blindly insisting that the PCE can't do anything it has actually done.

HuCard games were obviously small because the CD format took off quickly. But people desperate to discount the PCE say it's because the hardware can't handle much. Point out any example from a CD game and it doesn't count because "the CD-ROM runs the game, not the PC Engine!" and HuCards show the limit of any potential the hardware had.

They will disqualify it as being part of the same generation as SNES and Genesis, ignoring on-par games top quality software, saying that the lack of hardware parallax proves(!) that the wimpy cpu can't do it because it really is just 8-bit gen hardware. Point out that the exact same cpu is in the SuperGrafx and it can do hardware multi-layer parallax and way more sprites than either Genesis or SNES and it "doesn't count" because it's a completely different console which has no generation class.

People like Black Falcon love to say that 4 meg CD games with CD music aren't fair to compare to SNES games, because they had the potential to have instead been 4000 meg games. But SNES/SFC games which are 100 - 200 megs uncompressed count, even with in-cart add-ons, because "Nintendo".

Simply point out that PCE CD games were what we were actually experiencing during the heyday of SNES/Genesis and you get more convenient cop-outs, like "it was more expensive than Neo Geo!" Point out that the TG-16 + Turbo-CD retailed for $220 at the same time that the SNES retailed for $200 and you'll either get a rehash of an unrelated excuse like "it's an 8-bit bios upgrade!" or Black Falcon rolls yet another side of his random-rule-changing die.

It's cool when young people get into things before their time in a positive way. But history rewriteres like Black Falcon are learning everything from youtube videos and wikis and their impressions blur huge periods of time and disconnected facts together and then they use that mess to tell people that were there that they're wrong. All just to prop up a console by a company they idolize because of they got into another system that company made generations later.

And it's not even limited to jumping blindly into comparison discissions in 16-bit related forums. These people scour general retro discussions and youtube comments to drop fact bombs like "it's actually really only an 8-bit system on par with "Ness" and shouldn't be included in this video/discussion". The fact that two of the PC Engine's greatest strengths are the SNES's greatest weaknesses, combined with the 'cool factor' of the 16-bit gen and how the PCE is a mysterious lost in Japan library which is stocked with the hardcore and even more cool aura of SHUMPs (which the SNES lacks), among other unique factors are polarizing for Nintendo revisionists in particular, when they aren't minimalizing the Genesis.

In the end HuCards, CDs and the PC Engine in general all get disqualified from "counting" one way or another. Turbo/PCE CD games weren't a luxury product (like Neo Geo) for North Americans bitd. Importing CD games was cheaper than buying many cart games, especially SNES RPGs. It may not be "fair" that Nintendo kept NES and SNES games from featuring CD music or the kind of variety many PCE and Sega-CD games have. It's not fair that Nintendo used immoral and illegal tactics and that SNES carts often cost so much. Loading extra hardware into carts may be "cheating" as well, but should we really say that SNES hdon't "count"?

Why not just appreciate all 16-bit gen games and take any unique factors into consideration when discussing or comparing them? Comparisons don't have to be a competition with a defineable "winner".

[esteban]

Bonknuts, thank you for that eloquent, well-reasoned post. I feel you did justice to both sides of the debate.

I can't add anything that hasn't already been said.

[esteban]

And I just read B_T's post...I feel like you (and others) know more about Falcon's modus operandi than me. It helps me see his posts in a new context.

STATUS: TIME FOR EVERYONE TO PLAY PCE. Everyone.

[A Black Falcon]

I consider Famicom disk games, to be Famicom games and part of its library. I also consider Majora's Mask part of the N64 library, even though you're forced to purchase an addon pack (ram expansion pack) to play the game.

I've already covered the FDS, but the subject of RAM expansions and the like is one I should expand on, because it's an interesting, somewhat hard-to-categorize case.

Okay, this is an important question.  As SamIAm said and I have also explained with different words, this is the main reason why addons are different from the main systems' their libraries are a part of:

The reason why these don't seem to me to be add-ons is because they're basically transparent to the user, and to me, the user's perspective is paramount. Aside from a fractional increase in price in some cases, there is no difference between buying and playing an "enhanced" cartridge and buying and playing an ordinary one.

I bet somewhere out there is an SNES fan who doesn't even realize that his Star Fox cart has a chip in it. I bet there are LOTS of people who don't realize that Mario Kart has a DSP chip in it. A few people on these forums probably don't even realize that SFII on the PCE has a mapper in it.

Yes, indeed, this is absolutely correct.  Perception is key.  This explains almost all cases, why some things are addons and others are not.

However, what this leaves out is what that first quote above mentions -- things like RAM expansions and, also, video enhancement addons.  The main examples of these I can think of are the Turbo CD Super and Arcade cards, the N64 RAM pack, the Saturn 1MB and 4MB RAM packs, the Saturn Video CD Card, and the CD-i Digital Video Cartridge.

All of those things I just listed are hardware objects which add something to the hardware of the console.  They are also sold separately from the console they connect to; some may be built-in in some models, but never all, and if some require it as an addon that's all that is needed to put it in the addon category.   They have games which require them.  These things seem to be addons.

However, they are much cheaper than traditional addons (like a Turbo CD, Sega CD, etc.) they do NOT change the media format, and you do not put games into them -- instead, you just put the game in the system like normal.  As a result, these things do not usually get counted as addons.  Should they be anyway?  Hmm... generally I would say no, because that's how things are classified.  It was decided by game companies and game listing sites that those things are expansions, not full addons, so they aren't classified that way.  Things only get called true 'add-ons' if they don't just plug in to a system, but they actually change where you put the games, apparently.  Should they be anyway?  Well... maybe, but it IS true that no game company has divided their systems' library that way -- the Saturn, CD-i, N64, and TCD all clearly include all of the games as a part of the system's library, with no breakdown like you see between Genesis and 32X games and the like.  The closest to having such a delineation is the TCD, since it uses different end-label logos for the regular, Super, and Arcade cards, but that's essentially just the same thing as an N64 game having the 'Expansion Pak Required' logo on the front, really.  It's not being sold as something for a completely different console.  This kind of categorization based on how the original manufacturer sold the game is common -- this is also why dual-mode Game Boy/GB Color games, that work in both consoles, are always called 'GBC games' in places that list them under just one platform, since the GBC is the system which Nintendo emphasized in the games' packaging and marketing.

So yes, there is a potential point to be made for these things being usually-unrecognized true add-ons.  Going by price, what the first-party companies said, and whether they use different game input mechanisms they are not, but by the key checks of 'is it sold separately' and 'does it enhance the system in some way', they are.  Generally I've gone with the standard definition for these and included them in the library, albeit with a note perhaps that the game supports or requires the expansion in question.

This whole argument is too big for me to keep up with, but just to toss in one thing about cart-coprocessors and mappers or whatever: The reason why these don't seem to me to be add-ons is because they're basically transparent to the user, and to me, the user's perspective is paramount. Aside from a fractional increase in price in some cases, there is no difference between buying and playing an "enhanced" cartridge and buying and playing an ordinary one.

This is what he does. The origin of the point of bringing up the special chips in the SNES carts, was completely lost because he brings the argument down to semantics, to the point where the original meaning is lost, and he can easily counter argue. It's like trying to hold a slippery fish. A Black Falcon is infamous for doing this on Sega-16, to the point where no one will take him seriously on anything he posts. We're talking pages upon pages of this kind of stuff.

Oh come on, that's an insane generalization, and it's not true at all.  Also, insults instead of making actual points?  That sounds indeed like something some Sega-16 people do... and it's always quite unfortunate.

I'm up for a good argument/debate and I'll probably agree on multiple points of view, even if I'm arguing just one of them. A lot of the time, these arguments are opinion and perspective based anyway. When arguing for credibility towards an opinion or perspective, getting into the nitty gritty of semantics always muddies the waters.

I like debate a lot, but the personal attacks often make me want to just ignore entire posts because of their presence...

I will say, though, that semantics DO matter.  Sure, sometimes they don't really, but often they do.  The way you classify something IS important.  I would not argue semantics for no reason; I would do so because it matters.

The point of the argument is this; should the PC-Engine library include both hucard and CD games. The argument against it, is that the CD unit is an addon and therefore shouldn't be included. The reason for this perspective, is that the SegaCD and 32x (the most predominant addons in console history of successful systems, around that era).

No, it's because all addons have always been separated out of their base systems' libraries.  That is not the reason.

And the main reason why gamers separate these addons as different game library, is that the addon hardware enhances the games to the point that they aren't representative of the original system's capability.

Nope, it's because they are separate pieces of hardware sold separately which play games via a separate mechanism from the main system and were sold and marketed as a different platform, as all addons always are (yes, including the Turbo CD).

This mostly comes from comparing one system to the other (it isn't a fair comparison). In the case of the PCE, this doesn't apply.

Of course it applies.  The Turbo CD is an addon.  That definition of Add-on from Wikipedia I linked?  The Turbo CD fits in it perfectly.  Your obsessive focus on addon chips has NOTHING TO DO with whether a thing is an addon or not!  I get it that you two care about this, but it's immaterial to the point that that is not an essential part of the definition of add-on as is accepted by everyone other than you people.

PC-Engine CD games, are PCE games; there are no additional graphic processors, co-processors, or straight up new processors.

Doesn't matter.

The interface to the medium is different, the core game logic/code is the same. Another reason addons are considered to be a separate library, is that the addon always remained an addon.

Not really, no.  The CDX, Laseractive + Mega LD, and X'eye/Wondermega did not turn the Sega CD into part of the Genesis.  The Twin Famicom did not turn the FDS into part of the Famicom.  Etc.  If the games are a separate library anywhere on the system's ecosystem, they are a separate library!  Period.

The addon is a branch of the system, therefore it's a branch of the library. It never replaced the core system; ever. In the perspective of 1988, the CD was an addon. In the perspective of 1992, the CD unit was the system. And if you look at the system from a perspective of 1996, hucards become the subset of the library - but they are still part of the PC-Engine library. Matter of fact, in 1992 when the Duo came out in the US (and I got one on release day), my perspective of hucards immediately changed to that - they became a subset of what was now CD games for the library. The Duo made it apparent; CD games were now the current format.

I've said this before, but the idea that you can change the definition of what is an addon mid-generation is wrong; you can't.  Something is what it was from the beginning.

There's also this perspective that an addon was never intended to be part of the main system, or vision. That addons are always afterthoughts. And therefore it gives the addon even less credibility. That's not actually an unreasonable point of view. But the PCE system and CD unit were designed together. The CD unit was not some after thought down the road. And I'm sure the Famicom disk drive 'addon' probably had some sort of an influence to this.

But Hudson seems to have started working on the PCE hardware BEFORE they and/or NEC came up with the CD drive idea, so they were not designed starting at the same time.  Sure, as far as addons go the Turbo CD has to be the most integrated one ever, and sure, it was worked on before the PCE released I am sure, but it doesn't seem to have actually existed as long as the PCE did, conceptually, and that does matter too.

By strict definition, by all means describe the CD unit as an addon. But when it comes categorizing the software for the PC-Engine, characteristics of the CD unit make it different than any other addon in console history. It's VERY hard to talk about PC-Engine games, without talking about hucards and CD games. If all you ever owned, was the hucard only system - then I can see why you wouldn't have this perspective. It's a different perspective for people that own(ed) the Duo, and gamers that grew up with both formats during that era. And for those of us that stuck through it till the end (imported).

The Turbo CD is the most successful game addon ever as far as adoption rates go.  There is little question that that is true; the only way to challenge that, probably is, ironically enough, to count the Super System Card as an addon, as I discuss at the top of this post -- that surely had very high adoption rates in Japan.  But as for the TCD itself, it started out as an addon, so it is an addon.  You can't redefine things midstream, it does not work that way!  Things are what they are.

For example, the existence of many Xbox 360 systems packed in with Kinects does not make the thing any less an optional accessory.  Your definition-shifting mid-generation thing is something I really, really have a problem with.

What I am NOT doing is somehow slighting the Turbo CD library!  Of course it's important, and large.  The Turbo CD matters a lot, and sure, no discussion of the TG16 is complete without it.  But, it IS an addon.  Not everyone with a TG16 bought the CD drive, either in the US or Japan -- look at the numbers again, 3.92 million HuCard systems sold, 1.92 million CD systems, about a million of those Duo-line systems and the rest addon CD drives.  And in the US, something like 900k TG16s sold, and maybe 100k at best CD units and Duos combined -- and it was probably below that (Vic Ireland said he thought 40k total CD+Duo, after all).  In the US few people bought CD units, and even in Japan a large majority of HuCard system owners never bought a CD unit or Duo.  An addon is something not included in the base system, that not everyone has.  Only 33% of PC Engine owners had a CD drive, unless some people with PCEs bought Duos instead of CD addon drives.  I'm sure many did, but not all.  Any percentage there would be a made-up number, though, and I don't know what one to use. 

But regardless, if my math is correct, somewhere between 33% and ~40% of PCE owners had CD drives, depending on how many HuCard system owners bought Duos but not CD units.  That is a large percentage by addon terms, but it is NOT something universally owned by all PCE/TG16 owners.  30 or 40 percent is not everyone.

[esteban]

Falcon, I am curious...

HERE WE GO: if God gave us HuCARD-only-PCE in 1987, and then, DUO in 1992, how would you classify things?

ASIDE: Did you see what I did there?

[A Black Falcon]

And I just read B_T's post...I feel like you (and others) know more about Falcon's modus operandi than me. It helps me see his posts in a new context.

STATUS: TIME FOR EVERYONE TO PLAY PCE. Everyone.

Actually he thoroughly misrepresents me at every point in that post, constantly blaming me for the actions of others and claiming that I agree with the kind of people which I completely disagree with.  Almost nothing in that post has anything to do with any position I actually hold.

It wouldn't be a big deal whether or not someone wants to make distinctions about PCE Hu and CD games if retroactively-enthused "retro" game enthusiasts could exercise common sense when diving into 16-bit gen discussions. But forums are full of Genesis or SNES fanboys blindly insisting that the PCE can't do anything it has actually done.

You might want to try actually reading my posts before making things up I did not say, mean, or think and claiming that I said or think those things.  This post is interesting because it makes it pretty clear why you're arguing this way, but it's also completely and totally off-base when it comes to the false, invented claims you ascribe to me.  If other people think those things, that's got nothing to do with my statements.

They will disqualify it as being part of the same generation as SNES and Genesis, ignoring on-par games top quality software, saying that the lack of hardware parallax proves(!) that the wimpy cpu can't do it because it really is just 8-bit gen hardware. Point out that the exact same cpu is in the SuperGrafx and it can do hardware multi-layer parallax and way more sprites than either Genesis or SNES and it "doesn't count" because it's a completely different console which has no generation class.

Anyone saying something stupid like that should be corrected, these things are false of course.  Parallax is great, but the TG16 not having it doesn't make the thing 3rd gen, that'd be silly.  The CPU may be 8-bit, but it's a powerful and fast 8-bit CPU.  And the SuperGrafx is, I would say, 4th gen; it's just not of an upgrade enough to call it truly a next-gen console, so a second 4th gen system it is.  And there is precedent for that -- Sega had two third-gen consoles in the SG-1000 and Sega Master System, for example.  Atari had three! (5200, 7800, XEGS)

People like Black Falcon love to say that 4 meg CD games with CD music aren't fair to compare to SNES games, because they had the potential to have instead been 4000 meg games. But SNES/SFC games which are 100 - 200 megs uncompressed count, even with in-cart add-ons, because "Nintendo".

No, I don't think this and didn't say it.  In fact, I essentially said the opposite -- I said that the actual game data -- that is, the programming that makes up the core of the game, leaving out stuff like graphics, sound, and cutscenes -- on CD games usually isn't any larger than that of cartridge games.  Sure, CD games have the potential of massive megabit counts, but in the 4th gen, as I said, audio and cutscenes aside they almost never did it!  As I said earlier in the thread, it took quite some time to figure out good uses for CDs, apart from adding audio or, later, video cutscene data.

As far as 'fairness' goes, generally for the 4th generation systems CD games should have better cutscenes than cartridge/card games, because CD audio lets you do much more than chiptunes + text, but in-game play can be compared of course, and depending on genre may be better on SNES than the CD consoles (for stuff that makes good use of the SNES's hardware effects and doesn't have slowdown), or may be better on one of the other systems (for shmups for example).  Overall, of course it's fair to compare games of the same generation to each other.  You need to take the different hardware capabilities of the different systems into account, of course -- so like, criticizing a Jaguar game for not looking as good as an N64 game would be kind of silly -- but they ARE the same generation, and so of course they can be compared.

And it's not even limited to jumping blindly into comparison discissions in 16-bit related forums. These people scour general retro discussions and youtube comments to drop fact bombs like "it's actually really only an 8-bit system on par with "Ness" and shouldn't be included in this video/discussion". The fact that two of the PC Engine's greatest strengths are the SNES's greatest weaknesses, combined with the 'cool factor' of the 16-bit gen and how the PCE is a mysterious lost in Japan library which is stocked with the hardcore and even more cool aura of SHUMPs (which the SNES lacks), among other unique factors are polarizing for Nintendo revisionists in particular, when they aren't minimalizing the Genesis.

Stop blaming me for others' arguments.  I'm not those people.  I disagree with those peoples' arguments just as much as anyone here.  Yes, I love the SNES, but I equally love the Genesis + Sega CD + 32X, and the TG16 + CD is almost as great.  Given how popular the NES is among retro gamers in the West now, I think that TG16/PCE games would actually be really popular if they were more affordable and accessible -- a lot of them are exactly the kind of things that NES-lovers would love, particularly the HuCard stuff!  It's too bad the system did so badly back then, because otherwise I think it'd be quite popular now, and rightly so.

It's cool when young people get into things before their time in a positive way. But history rewriteres like Black Falcon are learning everything from youtube videos and wikis and their impressions blur huge periods of time and disconnected facts together and then they use that mess to tell people that were there that they're wrong. All just to prop up a console by a company they idolize because of they got into another system that company made generations later.

Doesn't apply at all.  I've been playing video games since the '80s.  I have a masters' degree in history and am quite good at remembering historical facts and periods.  This "if you weren't there you can't say anything about the period" is an absolutely ludicrous idea -- if that was true there would be no study of history, but there is and I really love it -- but regardless, I WAS there in the 4th generation.  Sure, I didn't have most of the systems myself, but like anyone I played what I could, of course.

As for learning from Youtube and wikis, they might be decent supplementary materials, but I wouldn't recommend that as a primary source, no.  Youtube videos particularly rarely will be too helpful for much of anything beyond just gameplay footage.  As for wikis, they can be good, but gaming wikis for earlier systems are spotty at best... never rely on all of that information being accurate, it won't be.  You need to go beyond that and do more research.  Game history writing definitely needs to get better and get more attention, but works like the new book on Sega are fantastic steps forward. I hope we see more like that in the future, it's needed!  Things like Sega-16's interview series with people who worked on Genesis games are also really pretty fantastic.

Why not just appreciate all 16-bit gen games and take any unique factors into consideration when discussing or comparing them? Comparisons don't have to be a competition with a defineable "winner".

Why not like all of the systems -- and I like the SNES, Genesis/Sega CD/32X, and TG16/CD all quite a lot -- AND also try to decide which one you like the most?  I have no problem with rankings, even if they are mostly subjective.

[A Black Falcon]

Falcon, I am curious...

HERE WE GO: if God gave us HuCARD-only-PCE in 1987, and then, DUO in 1992, how would you classify things?

ASIDE: Did you see what I did there?

Presuming that the internal hardware was the same, then it'd be in the same place as the SuperGrafx, Sega Master System, Atari 7800, or Atari XE -- a second console in the same generation as their previous one, and compatible with the previous system, much like the SuperGrafx, or how the Japanese Master System/Mark III is backwards compatible with Sega's first 3rd gen system, the SG-1000.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Things only get called true 'add-ons' if they don't just plug in to a system, but they actually change where you put the games, apparently.... So yes, there is a potential point to be made for these things being usually-unrecognized true add-ons.  Going by price, what the first-party companies said, and whether they use different game input mechanisms they are not, but by the key checks of 'is it sold separately' and 'does it enhance the system in some way', they are.

As opposed to them being fake add-ons?  You're dumber than a sack of hair.

I like debate a lot, but the personal attacks often make me want to just ignore entire posts because of their presence...

Good.  That means less ignorant ramblings for us to read.

[synbiosfan]

That means less ignorant ramblings for us to read.

You can wish for that all you want...

[A Black Falcon]

As opposed to them being fake add-ons?

As has been thoroughly explained, things like expansion chips in cartridges are not addons.  That's what I meant there -- only counting addons which fully fit the definition, not things you people claim are addons but aren't.

Also see https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=16829.msg351935#msg351935 , where I discuss the one major issue that leaves -- the question of enhancement units you plug into a system but which do not change the media format.

[esteban]

FIRST (CLEARING THE AIR): Falcon, I will only judge you by how you post here (since that is the extent of my direct knowledge). So far, I am enjoying this discussion and I can see both sides of the debate. I agree that personal attacks only clutter up an argument.

 



HONEST QUESTION TO EVERYONE: how would you classify LaserActive and LD-ROM and PCE?

[Nazi NecroPhile]

As has been thoroughly explained, things like expansion chips in cartridges are not addons.  That's what I meant there -- only counting addons which fully fit the definition, not things you people claim are addons but aren't.

Those quotes were about memory upgrades, not helper chips.  Learn to read!

I just think it's cute how you continue to act like memory upgrades are something other than an add-on, even though one of 'em (the N64 Expansion Pak) is listed in your wikipedia 'proof' of what constitutes an add-on.

[esteban]

Falcon, I am curious...

HERE WE GO: if God gave us HuCARD-only-PCE in 1987, and then, DUO in 1992, how would you classify things?

ASIDE: Did you see what I did there?

Presuming that the internal hardware was the same, then it'd be in the same place as the SuperGrafx, Sega Master System, Atari 7800, or Atari XE -- a second console in the same generation as their previous one, and compatible with the previous system, much like the SuperGrafx, or how the Japanese Master System/Mark III is backwards compatible with Sega's first 3rd gen system, the SG-1000.

I know you are being pulled in 100 different directions (sorry! I'm making this thread even more convoluted), but I don't agree with your reasoning above...

...given the premise of my "alternate universe", the DUO is not a new platform or console. I understand your desire to categorize it that way, and I know you are frustrated because PCE/DUO does not neatly fit into the sterile, simplistic classification systems we have constructed...but PCE/DUO truly is a unique beast.

In fact, our thread is very instructive on how misunderstood the PCE is. And, even more importantly, it reveals how our classification/labeling systems may appear reasonable, but horribly fail to represent the essential truth of the very thing we are trying to understand (in this case, video game consoles).




TO EVERYONE: For the sake of everyone's sanity, you are required to play an hour of PCE (that includes CD-ROM games, but not LD-ROM games, in case you were wondering) BEFORE POSTING in this thread.

[TheClash603]

Is the Laseractive an add-on of both the PC-Engine and the Mega Drive?

Or are the PC-Engine and Mega Drive PACs add-ons of the Laseractive?

If the PACs are add-ons, then I believe that makes the PC-Engine and Mega Drive both  add-ons and consoles.  How trippy is that?

[esteban]

Totally trippy.... 

[CrackTiger]

The N64 ram pak upgrades the base hardware.

Most SNES on-cart addons are cpu upgrades.

The PCE CD-ROM, when not part of a single Duo unit, is an alternate delivery method. Another software format, like Sega My Cards, Satellaview games, Famicom Disk games, 64DD games, etc. None of these upgrade the base console hardware. Some are capable of running additional audio along side the console hardware, but the software is no different than the regular console's cart-based software, aside from any additional audio that might play on the side. This why you saw the same games running on both software formats.

The System 3.0 and Arcade Card only upgrade the delivery method of the software format. It is really more of a handicap reducer though, as CD format games were bottlenecked in the "short term" (small bits at a time) as much as carts were in the long term (everything at once, but smaller overall). It again, did not affect the base hardware, unlike SNES accelerator chips.

[SamIAm]

I understand why the PCE/CD system is all one system and one library from a software developer's perspective, from a hardware designer's perspective, and even from a certain historian's perspective. But from a user's perspective, no way. Can you play a CD game on a base system? No? Then it's a different library. It's really that simple for me, especially when the required expansion hardware is so expensive.

I think of the Famicom Disk System as an add-on with a separate library as well, but the line blurs (without disappearing) just because it became so redundant - its initial advantages in storage were overcome by cartridges, and some FDS games were re-released on cartridges with zero changes. That would NEVER happen with a PCE-CD game. At the very least, the audio would have to be downgraded, and as a practical matter it's very likely that HuCard-ized versions of many games would have had actual game data trimmed.

That is one thing I have to say I'm a little surprised at you guys for claiming. I thought Redbook audio was supposed to be a big deal when this thing came out? Be honest - would Ys Book 1&2 have been as magical without the redbook? If we're still talking 1989, you can kiss the intro and other cutscenes goodbye, too.

Without any extra processors, the PCE-CD may not be a perfect analogue of the Sega CD, but it's still pretty close. The massive storage, by itself, is a really big deal.

[TurboXray]

I understand why it's all one system and one library from a software developer's perspective, from a hardware designer's perspective, and even from a certain historian's perspective. But from a user's perspective, no way. Can you play a CD game on a base system? No? Then it's a different library. It's really that simple for me. Especially when the required hardware is so expensive.

And those that had a Duo, that could play both CD and hucard games. It's one library to them. And there is lies the problem. It's not like the Duo came out at the end of the systems life (unless you follow the opinion that the release of the Duo, is the end of the PC-Engine's life - because the Duo is a completely new system), it came out before half way. Again, it's all a matter of perspective.

 

That is one thing I have to say I'm a little surprised at you guys for claiming. I thought Redbook audio was supposed to be a big deal when this thing came out? Be honest - would Ys Book 1&2 have been as magical without the redbook?

Claiming..? The CD format was for storage first and foremost, Red book is a base free upgrade for it. If anything, it's the streaming ADPCM that's the upgrade. The mass storage makes it perfect for packing in lots of compressed audio streams (one of the reason for mass storage; speech). Some early CD games used chiptunes instead of Red Book. Some later CD games used chiptunes for the cinemas too. And even some late gen games used chiptunes instead of Red Book. But yeah, Red Book is great. It creates a better atmosphere. Ys is better for it. But Xanadu I and II are just as awesome with chiptunes IMO.

 If the CD unit never came out, as I've already said, there would have been audio upgrades in the hucards themselves. Or optional audio addon, like the mark III or MSX stuffs.

Also, insults instead of making actual points?

Huh???

 A Black Falcon: Yes, a definition can change. Or rather, a description of what constitutes something. And since when it anything set in stone!?!? "The CD format is an addon, because it started as an addon - and nothing will every change that. Not even the Duo". Seriously???

 1988, the CD unit is an addon. 1992 - there is only the Duo (technically 1991 in Japan). The Duo doesn't add or connect to anything. The Duo runs the same CD games as the CD addon does. The Duo is not a 'new' system, because it doesn't play any 'new' games, etc. It plays the same CD and hucard games. Duo =/= SGX, in ANY way, shape, form, etc. You know what? Fuck it. Fuck this merry-go-round with you.

Me: PCE consists of CD and hucard games:
@loop
ABF: No. CD was an addon and you can't count that.
Me: But CD unit became the new format
ABF: The cd unit upgrades the hardware
Me: No really. And special chips in snes games, do much more that CD unit as far as upgrading
ABF: Doesn't matter, because the gamer doesn't have to buy an addon to play them
Me: Ok, so it's about purchasing an addon then, the Duo replaced all addons and is the main system.
ABF: The Duo doesn't count because it's a new system, like the SGX.
:insert some other random crap, then branch to :loop

 If you're gonna break the PCE library because of the CD format, DON'T BE HALF ASS ABOUT. Go all the way with it, buddy. If CD and hucards are not the same library, then CD 1.0, CD 2.0, CD 3.0 and ACD are NOT the same library. You cannot play any of those CD game WITHOUT purchasing an upgrade card. Period. If you're gonna argue and stick with semantics, be thorough about it.

 Reply to this if you want, I won't. See ya.

[SamIAm]

And those that had a Duo, that could play both CD and hucard games. It's one library to them. And there is lies the problem. It's not like the Duo came out at the end of the systems life (unless you follow the opinion that the release of the Duo, is the end of the PC-Engine's life - because the Duo is a completely new system), it came out before half way. Again, it's all a matter of perspective.

Ehhh, maybe my perspective is off because I had a JVC X'EYE first, but the Duo to me is a combo system just like that. It's two systems together. A base and an expansion as one for the sake of convenience and economics. It's really hard for me to think of it as an all-out re-birth of the PCE.

The Duo makes up half of the CD system owner base. On one hand, that's a lot, but on the other, it clearly didn't start a revolution. Of the 5.8 million worldwide sales, only about 1 million are Duos. The bulk of the sales happened before the Duo ever appeared, too.

Claiming..? The CD format was for storage first and foremost, Red book is a base free upgrade for it. If anything, it's the streaming ADPCM that's the upgrade. The mass storage makes it perfect for packing in lots of compressed audio streams (one of the reason for mass storage; speech). Some early CD games used chiptunes instead of Red Book. Some later CD games used chiptunes for the cinemas too. And even some late gen games used chiptunes instead of Red Book. But yeah, Red Book is great. It creates a better atmosphere. Ys is better for it. But Xanadu I and II are just as awesome with chiptunes IMO.

 If the CD unit never came out, as I've already said, there would have been audio upgrades in the hucards themselves. Or optional audio addon, like the mark III or MSX stuffs.

That's all fine and good, but what I'm trying to say is that the difference in storage alone is so huge, and so expensive, that it doesn't matter if there aren't any extra processors in the PCE-CD. The difference to the user is still enormous.

There were 5.8 million PCE/TG-16 owners, and about 2 million CD system owners among them. Ask the 3.8 million people who only ever had the Hucard systems whether they thought the CD library was their Hucard library's long-lost Siamese twin. They may or may not have understood what's under the hood of these systems, but I guarantee that Hucard-only owners back in the day saw the CD library as a separate, if related, family.

EDIT: You posted this a while back:

And the main reason why gamers separate these addons as different game library, is that the addon hardware enhances the games to the point that they aren't representative of the original system's capability.

This might be at the heart of our disagreement, because I don't see things this way at all. I think it's a separate library because you had to shell out hundreds of dollars for a separate doohickey to play the games. Even if Sonic CD didn't have those special stages with a mode-7-y floor, it would still seem to me to be a non-Genesis game because I can't play it on my Genesis. Put the game on a cartridge, stick in a chip that makes that effect, and charge roughly the same amount as any other cart game, though, and it will sure look like a Genesis game to me.

-------

In the end, I think the PCE and the CD system and the system cards are all pretty unique, and we all have our own perspective. In another universe, where the TG-16 was more popular than the Genesis, maybe there would be Sega CD fans arguing that the Sega CD library deserves not to be lumped in the with Genesis. In our universe, though, I think that a PCE fan's perspective in 2014, after 20 years of owning the base and the add-on, is biased simply because the two libraries just look so much better together.

I feel like what I really learned from this discussion is that the PCE and its CD system are so different from the Mega Drive and the SFC that it's not possible to directly compare them in some ways.

By the way, let's finish Spriggan Mark 2 already. Does that stage four text insert properly on your end?

[A Black Falcon]

And those that had a Duo, that could play both CD and hucard games. It's one library to them. And there is lies the problem. It's not like the Duo came out at the end of the systems life (unless you follow the opinion that the release of the Duo, is the end of the PC-Engine's life - because the Duo is a completely new system), it came out before half way. Again, it's all a matter of perspective.

[...]

 A Black Falcon: Yes, a definition can change. Or rather, a description of what constitutes something. And since when it anything set in stone!?!? "The CD format is an addon, because it started as an addon - and nothing will every change that. Not even the Duo". Seriously???

Yes.  You cannot redefine what type of system a console is mid-generation.  How it is is set from the start.  Period.  I think I've mentioned the X'eye, CDX, and Twin Famicom enough times that maybe this point should be getting across by now.

1988, the CD unit is an addon. 1992 - there is only the Duo (technically 1991 in Japan). The Duo doesn't add or connect to anything. The Duo runs the same CD games as the CD addon does. The Duo is not a 'new' system, because it doesn't play any 'new' games, etc. It plays the same CD and hucard games. Duo =/= SGX, in ANY way, shape, form, etc.

I said that the Duo would be like the Supergrafx if there had been no stand-alone CD drive released!  Of course WITH a standalone CD drive, as exists, it's not like the Supergrafx.  But if the Duo had been the only way to play CD games, then it would be.

Claiming..? The CD format was for storage first and foremost, Red book is a base free upgrade for it. If anything, it's the streaming ADPCM that's the upgrade. The mass storage makes it perfect for packing in lots of compressed audio streams (one of the reason for mass storage; speech). Some early CD games used chiptunes instead of Red Book. Some later CD games used chiptunes for the cinemas too. And even some late gen games used chiptunes instead of Red Book. But yeah, Red Book is great. It creates a better atmosphere. Ys is better for it. But Xanadu I and II are just as awesome with chiptunes IMO.

 If the CD unit never came out, as I've already said, there would have been audio upgrades in the hucards themselves. Or optional audio addon, like the mark III or MSX stuffs.

Maybe so, but are there pins in the HuCards for audio enhancements?  And anyway, that's purely speculation, and enhanced cart/card audio won't get you lots of voice acting, for sure.  I like chiptunes a lot, games don't need CD audio, and cartridge games are just as good as CD games, for sure.  However, the interesting types of music you find in Turbo CD and Sega CD is pretty cool and I like it a lot.  As for voice-acted cutscenes, well, it helps with understanding games that are in Japanese for sure, versus just text... :p

That's all fine and good, but what I'm trying to say is that the difference in storage alone is so huge, and so expensive, that it doesn't matter if there aren't any extra processors in the PCE-CD.

There are 5.8 million PCE/TG-16 owners, and about 2 million CD system owners among them. Ask the 3.8 million people who only ever had the Hucard systems whether they think the CD library is their Hucard library's long-lost Siamese twin. They may or may not understand what's under the hood of these systems, but I guarantee that Hucard-only owners see the CD library as a separate, if related, family

I've tried to make this point several times now, only to be completely ignored.  I guess only the 1 million Duo owners count as true Turbografx/PC Engine owners, and the rest are irrelevant or something...

I know you are being pulled in 100 different directions (sorry! I'm making this thread even more convoluted), but I don't agree with your reasoning above...

...given the premise of my "alternate universe", the DUO is not a new platform or console. I understand your desire to categorize it that way, and I know you are frustrated because PCE/DUO does not neatly fit into the sterile, simplistic classification systems we have constructed...but PCE/DUO truly is a unique beast.

I don't know what you are talking about...  If there was no standalone CD drive, but instead  the Duo was the only way to get a CD drive, it'd be a new system.  Where the Supergrafx made a new system with another processor and the like, the Duo would with a CD drive and more RAM.

In fact, our thread is very instructive on how misunderstood the PCE is. And, even more importantly, it reveals how our classification/labeling systems may appear reasonable, but horribly fail to represent the essential truth of the very thing we are trying to understand (in this case, video game consoles)

Not really. I agree that it's more about some people here wanting to redefine things in order to make the TG16 look better, since clearly you need to include the CD library to keep the system competitive in comparison to the other systems of the generation.  Of course it is true that the TCD is more successful than other addons, and that half of CD systems sold are combo systems is DEFINITELY unique, but having a higher rate of combo system adaptation doesn't change that it is an addon at its core.  If a majority of Sega CDs sold had been CDXes and X'eyes and the like, the system would still be an addon too.  The ratio of addons to expansions doesn't change the systems' classification.

The N64 ram pak upgrades the base hardware.

Most SNES on-cart addons are cpu upgrades.

The PCE CD-ROM, when not part of a single Duo unit, is an alternate delivery method. Another software format, like Sega My Cards, Satellaview games, Famicom Disk games, 64DD games, etc. None of these upgrade the base console hardware. Some are capable of running additional audio along side the console hardware, but the software is no different than the regular console's cart-based software, aside from any additional audio that might play on the side. This why you saw the same games running on both software formats.

The System 3.0 and Arcade Card only upgrade the delivery method of the software format. It is really more of a handicap reducer though, as CD format games were bottlenecked in the "short term" (small bits at a time) as much as carts were in the long term (everything at once, but smaller overall). It again, did not affect the base hardware, unlike SNES accelerator chips.

This idea you have that somehow space enhancement systems don't really count as addons, while chips that increase processing power do, isn't backed up by anything other than your opinion, you know.  That's not how addons vs. enhancement chips are classified.  How invisible is it to the user?  Does the game go in the original system or the addon?  What did the company sell the device as?  These questions matter.  Whether it's a storage space enhancement or a system power/memory enhancement, though, doesn't as much, except in that most people, and companies, don't really count pure system memory/video enhancements as addons even though they kind of are -- as I was saying a while ago about the RAM packs, etc.  That point is a question worth discussing, I think.  The rest are correctly classified by standard definitions.  Your focus on "does it increase system power" first is not the primary factor used to determine what an addon is.

[spenoza]

I think the PC Engine and add-ons is unique in the console world, but not totally unique. I think it actually follows the home computer model. You create a base system. Later you add a CD-ROM drive that adds redbook audio and ups the storage space. Later in the system's life it got RAM upgrades via the Super System and Arcade cards.

I actually do think that the CD-ROM attachment is a lot like the FDS unit for the Famicom, which also took inspiration from the home computer market. The FDS changed the storage medium which provided the advantage of easy save capabilities, and Nintendo bundled in a couple FM audio channels as well. Only in the Nintendo example the FDS was dropped before the base system's life cycle was complete.

Yes, the HuCard slot does include a mono audio channel, I believe.

Say, does anyone know when manufacturing and distribution of the various PCE Core systems ended? Was it before the Duo was finished?

[shubibiman]

Bonknuts, don't waste your time debating with this Black Idiot. ;)

Your time deserves being spent on dev ;)

[ClodBusted]

Didn't read much of the last posts, especially when it comes to cases where two or more people just insult each other.

Guys, be proud of what the PCE can do. You don't need to prove that to the world constantly, and you don't have to fear comparisons with rivaling systems of back in the day, since these days are long gone anyway.

As far as I can remember, the whole addon argument started with comparing sales figures to the SNES/Satellaview and Mega Drive/MegaCD/32X* library.

I think pretty much everything what can be said about that has been said yet. Apart from some interesting posts inbetween, the last pages of this discussion consists of boring repeats and trolling for the lulz.

*please excuse me for being European, lol.

[esteban]

Black Falcon: I confused myself in my prior post. Ha! I started conflating the real-world with my silly premise. Sorry. I don't even know what to think anymore.

STATUS: I think that SamIAm has clearly stated the most persuasive argument—the ***user's*** perspective cannot be ignored. Since the TG-16/PCE was HuCARD-only, I can't help but agree that these folks would be justified in calling CD-ROM an add-on. There is a very real SPLIT in games available.

Of course, folks with a DUO are justified in seeing one inclusive library.

The PCE+IFU+CD-ROM helped blur the lines about what the true PCE experience (was/is)...


THAT SAID, it doesn't mean that we ignore the developer/hardware/technical "under-the-hood" perspective entirely.

Somehow, we might be able to balance the two perspectives. Or, at the very least, we should identify each perspective when we discuss things...

[esteban]

Black Falcon: I confused myself in my prior post. Ha! I started conflating the real-world with my silly premise. Sorry. I don't even know what to think anymore.

STATUS: I think that SamIAm has clearly stated the most persuasive argument—the ***user's*** perspective cannot be ignored. Since the TG-16/PCE was HuCARD-only, I can't help but agree that these folks would be justified in calling CD-ROM an add-on. There is a very real SPLIT in games available.

Of course, folks with a DUO are justified in seeing one inclusive library.

The PCE+IFU+CD-ROM helped blur the lines about what the true PCE experience (was/is)...


THAT SAID, it doesn't mean that we ignore the developer/hardware/technical "under-the-hood" perspective entirely.

Somehow, we might be able to balance the two perspectives. Or, at the very least, we should identify each perspective when we discuss things...

[Nazi NecroPhile]

I agree that it's more about some people here wanting to redefine things in order to make the TG16 look better, since clearly you need to include the CD library to keep the system competitive in comparison to the other systems of the generation.

And there's your ENTIRE problem.

"It's not fair to compare the PCE CDs to my beloved SNES!  CDs are cheating!!!!"

How invisible is it to the user?  Does the game go in the original system or the addon?  What did the company sell the device as?  These questions matter.

If those were determinants of what constitutes an add-on, they'd be part of the definition to which you linked.  They are not, and therefor you're making up your own definition to suit your argument.

HONEST QUESTION TO EVERYONE: how would you classify LaserActive and LD-ROM and PCE?

That's a good question.  It doesn't play games on its own, so the LA can't properly be called a console; if it's not a console, then the pacs can't be console add-ons; and the pacs themselves probably can't be called consoles because they don't work on their own or output to a TV.

I'd say the pacs are 'non-console' add-ons, akin to the 3DO Blaster and PC-FX GA thingys.

[A Black Falcon]

And there's your ENTIRE problem.

"It's not fair to compare the PCE CDs to my beloved SNES!  CDs are cheating!!!!"

No, that's YOUR entire problem.  For some bizarre reason you think that things like success, whether you like a platform or not, how well it sold, or anything else of the sort is is some way relevant.  It isn't.  It isn't at all. 

I know I've said this before, but once again, the way a system is categorized has ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING TO DO with any of that subjective stuff.  Nothing whatsoever.  Stop projecting and making things up about what you wrongly think I like.  The only thing that matters for this discussion is what a system is, not any of the things you are complaining about here.

Also, this doesn't matter, but it's quite weird that you're claiming that the SNES is "my beloved" system, somehow, when of course I've always made it clear that I think the Genesis+Sega CD+32X is every bit as great as the SNES, and it's the N64, not the SNES, that is my favorite console.  And why do you think I don't like the TG16+CD a lot too?  There's a reason I'm here, it's because it's a great console!  The fact that the TCD is an addon and Duos are combo systems, not a new model which makes the CD not an addon,  is a point that has nothing whatsoever to do with any of that opinion stuff.  You're the ones wrongly making it into something other than that, not me.  You are entirely, completely wrong here, 100%.

It's even weirder, of course, given that if you'd read all of my posts in this thread, you might have noticed that I said that it's entirely fair to compare the SNES to the Turbo CD... so even your attempt at an insult can't get its facts straight!

If those were determinants of what constitutes an add-on, they'd be part of the definition to which you linked.  They are not, and therefor you're making up your own definition to suit your argument.

Oh come on.

Add-ons, also known as peripherals, are devices generally sold separately from the console, but which connect to the main unit to add significant new functionality. This may include devices which upgrade the hardware of a console to allow it to play more resource-intensive games, devices which allow consoles to play games on a different media format, or devices which fully change the function of a console from a game playing device to something else. A hardware add-on differs from an accessory in that an accessory either adds functionality which is beneficial but nonessential for gameplay (like a Game Link Cable or Rumble Pak), or in some cases may only add aesthetic value (like a case mod or faceplate). Generally, a game designed for use with an accessory can still be played on a console without the compatible accessory, whereas a game designed for use with a peripheral can not be played on a console without the appropriate peripheral.

Please note that the term "device" is a term which really can't include enhancement chips in game carts -- then they'd say "games", not "devices".  That's why I also linked the Super FX article, to  show that it clearly calls it something else and not an add-on, which it isn't -- it's an enhancement chip in a game cartridge.

Otherwise, the quote covers the three major categories of addon -- new media formats, entirely new thing connecting to the system (such as a 32X), and hardware improvements in some way.

HONEST QUESTION TO EVERYONE: how would you classify LaserActive and LD-ROM and PCE?

That's a good question.  It doesn't play games on its own, so the LA can't properly be called a console; if it's not a console, then the pacs can't be console add-ons; and the pacs themselves probably can't be called consoles because they don't work on their own or output to a TV.

I'd say the pacs are 'non-console' add-ons, akin to the 3DO Blaster and PC-FX GA thingys.

Yeah, it's definitely a weird case.  The LaserActive alone isn't really a console, because it can't play games on its own -- it needs a Sega or NEC PAC for that.  So maybe the LaserActive ITSELF is the addon, and the Sega or NEC PACs are the "consoles"?  Because it's basically like a Sega/Turbo CD but with laserdiscs.  But as you say, those 'consoles' don't work on their own, which is a definite problem for that.  But they really aren't exactly add-ons either since the LA isn't a console on its own.  So... yeah, it's tricky.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Blah, blah, blah, more foolish rambling....... The fact that the TCD is an addon and Duos are combo systems, not a new model which makes the CD not an addon,  is a point that has nothing whatsoever to do with any of that opinion stuff.  You're the ones wrongly making it into something other than that, not me.  You are entirely, completely wrong here, 100%.

Again, I've yet to say the CD was anything but an add-on.  If I say this enough times, will it eventually get through your thick skull?

It's even weirder, of course, given that if you'd read all of my posts in this thread, you might have noticed that I said that it's entirely fair to compare the SNES to the Turbo CD... so even your attempt at an insult can't get its facts straight!

This all started when you whined that it was unfair to include CD games when comparing the time periods that the two systems were supported ("no pce releases after '94!"), so why don't YOU get your facts straight?!?
 

Oh come on.

<<<  insert wikipedia definition that Black Falcon can't comprehend here  >>>

Only the first sentence of that paragraph is the definition of 'add-on', with the rest being examples of add-on capabilities and how an add-on differs from an accessory.  Again, it does not say that a media format change is required or that an add-on must be a stand-alone device un-coupled from a game.

Please note that the term "device" is a term which really can't include enhancement chips in game carts -- then they'd say "games", not "devices".  That's why I also linked the Super FX article, to  show that it clearly calls it something else and not an add-on, which it isn't -- it's an enhancement chip in a game cartridge.

Making up your own definition for 'device', eh?  Here's the dictionary definition:

de·vice (noun) - a thing made for a particular purpose; an invention or contrivance, especially a mechanical or electrical one.

See anything in there saying that a 'device' must be physically separate and distinct from any other function?  Nope, that's your addition.

It's a moot point anyway, as with or without helper chips they're all still Super Famicom games to me.  If you and Sam (among others) want to use "customer ignorance" and cost as deciding factors in what constitutes an add-on, I don't really care; just don't try to claim that it's a textbook definition.

[A Black Falcon]

Blah, blah, blah, more foolish rambling....... The fact that the TCD is an addon and Duos are combo systems, not a new model which makes the CD not an addon,  is a point that has nothing whatsoever to do with any of that opinion stuff.  You're the ones wrongly making it into something other than that, not me.  You are entirely, completely wrong here, 100%.

Again, I've yet to say the CD was anything but an add-on.  If I say this enough times, will it eventually get through your thick skull?

Yeah, for you people somehow it's both an addon AND part of the library, because it shifts definition mid-generation.  As I've said, you can't do that.  What something is at the start is what it is.

This all started when you whined that it was unfair to include CD games when comparing the time periods that the two systems were supported ("no pce releases after '94!"), so why don't YOU get your facts straight?!?

There weren't any PC Engine games after 1994, though.  You can compare the SNES to the TG16, and you can compare the SNES to the Turbo CD.  Making both of those comparisons is just fine.  I don't know why you think that because I separate platforms by what system they're for I'm somehow saying that you can't compare the SNES to the Turbo CD, but that's complete nonsense. As I've said all along, of course it is entirely fair to compare platforms in the same generation.

Also, once again, in a list like https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=16829.msg348682#msg348682 , if you had also done Sega also would you have merged the Genesis, Sega CD, and 32X all onto one list, or would you have kept them separate?  Those two lists there are TG16+TCD and SNES+Satellaview, so of course a Sega list should include all addons as well... but you people keep trying to split hairs in order to exclude Sega's addons, which is absurd if you're including Nintendo and NEC's.  No, the idea that addons must increase system power is NOT valid -- remember the Wikipedia definition saying that adding a new media format is also an addon!  If you would have included all Genesis addons then it'd be a fair all-formats comparison, but I'd still rather see a list that separates systems out from their addons as well -- the main consoles and their addons are not the same thing, and what is on what format is quite important.  It'd be fair to have both a merged list AND a separated list, but merged only I don't like.

Only the first sentence of that paragraph is the definition of 'add-on', with the rest being examples of add-on capabilities and how an add-on differs from an accessory.  Again, it does not say that a media format change is required or that an add-on must be a stand-alone device un-coupled from a game.

The use of the term "device" makes it clear that they are NOT including things inside game cartridges.  If you look up any enhancement chip article (NES mapper chips, Super FX, , you will see that none of them call them add-ons.  They are enhancement chips in games, not addons.  Wikipedia is clear and consistent on this point.  Only you people don't admit that that's how addon classification works.

Please note that the term "device" is a term which really can't include enhancement chips in game carts -- then they'd say "games", not "devices".  That's why I also linked the Super FX article, to  show that it clearly calls it something else and not an add-on, which it isn't -- it's an enhancement chip in a game cartridge.

Making up your own definition for 'device', eh?  Here's the dictionary definition:

de·vice (noun) - a thing made for a particular purpose; an invention or contrivance, especially a mechanical or electrical one.

See anything in there saying that a 'device' must be physically separate and distinct from any other function?  Nope, that's your addition.[/quote]
Nope.  No one would ever call a game a "device".  Read the quote!  Actually read it.  It is VERY clear that the add-on article is referring to expansion devices which are NOT games.  And once again no enhancement chip article calls the things addons.  If you think enhancement chips are addons that's your opinion, but it goes against all authoritative sources, and you need to recognize that.

It's a moot point anyway, as with or without helper chips they're all still Super Famicom games to me.  If you and Sam (among others) want to use "customer ignorance" and cost as deciding factors in what constitutes an add-on, I don't really care; just don't try to claim that it's a textbook definition.

It is, though.  It absolutely 100% is.  If you were right, sites like Wikipedia, IGN, GameFAQs, Gamestop, or any other game listing site would list things like the Super FX or NES mapper chips as addons, like they do the 32X or Turbo CD.  There's a reason why they don't: they are not addons.  They are enhancement chips built in to game cartridges.  They are categorized differently.

[CrackTiger]

Also, this doesn't matter, but it's quite weird that you're claiming that the SNES is "my beloved" system, somehow, when of course I've always made it clear that I think the Genesis+Sega CD+32X is every bit as great as the SNES, and it's the N64, not the SNES, that is my favorite console.

You don't need to be an SNES fanboy to realize that it does have the best hardware, you just need to look at its capabilities.

What? , that's just insane... the NES, SNES, N64, and GC were all advanced-tech machines that all pushed the industry in many ways. The Wii is their only exception, and then after that some people went back and retroactively changed history to pretend that Nintendo hardware was always behind, when it'd always been the precise opposite of that. It's too bad that you seem to have joined into that, but it's not true. The NES, N64, and GC were all the best hardware available for several years after their release (remember, NES was 1983 in Japan, SMS was 1985), and the SNES was too, apart from that Neo-Geo of course.

Which soundchip sounds "better" to each one is more a matter of taste than anything. FM-based and sample-based soundchip have their pros and cons...

Of course, of course, it's "better", but it's actually worse because you say so and you claim it's "not being used fully" and such. Your excuses are so ridiculous... the SNES DOES have better audio, that is a fact, but you sort of admit that, but then spend most of your time attacking SNES sound anyway. I don't know what you mean about the SNES sound chip not being used fully enough -- there are a lot of really impressive compositions on the thing for sure -- but audio is just as much of an advantage for the SNES as graphics are, certainly.

Heck, it's only with adding in the Sega CD ones that I'd put the Genesis above the SNES, in shmups(!)

Gradius III (best shmup of the generation and an all-time classic!)

And why do you think I don't like the TG16+CD a lot too?  There's a reason I'm here, it's because it's a great console!

Unless you're talking about shmups, no way does the Duo have better games than the SNES. I like the system a lot, but it's no SNES apart from that one genre.

As has been thoroughly explained, things like expansion chips in cartridges are not addons.  That's what I meant there -- only counting addons which fully fit the definition, not things you people claim are addons but aren't.

If we're actually judging the hardware, then the Genesis is by far the king of polygonal games. Some of its games being mentioned in comparison to Star Fox might not push as many polygons at once, but for them to be even comparable is amazing for games only using the Genesis hardware itself. The SNES is the add-on king, forcing players to buy hardware every time instead of a single purchase. Star Fox and other chipped games are add-on games and don't run on the base SNES hardware. Games that use in-cart add-on hardware for a single effect, massive storage or really as copy protection are only thing. Games with chips that beef up processing power are completely different.

That sounds like the argument Sega used when they released the 32X. It didn't work out too well for them, you know...

I mean, yes, you're right -- Nintendo forced you to buy addons each time. But Sega's solution to that, the 32X, turned out to be the worse solution to the problem.

As for polygonal games, maybe the Genesis has more. I've never cared about the polygonal games on the Genesis, and don't own any, but yeah, it does have some. SNES games are probably more likely to use Mode 7, I guess... though the SNES can do an alright job of it, too, if you look at stuff like Race Drivin'.

Oh, and what about first person shooters? Stuff like Wolfenstein 3D, Spectre, or Faceball on SNES, versus Blood Shot, Zero Tolerance, etc. SNES does well there, even without Doom, which of course uses the SNES's best addon chip.

Bullshit.
It was just a dick move by Nintendo.

No, along with the failed attempt at NES backwards compatibility, that's Nintendo's other stated reason -- the system was designed for addon chips, so it didn't need as fast a CPU. It's certainly true that the system was designed for addon chips on the carts; those side banks of pins exist for a reason. Was Nintendo being cheap, particularly when they didn't boost the CPU after NES BC was abandoned? Perhaps. But they did have a plan, and followed through with it by using addon chips in a decent number of SNES games.

As far as the SNES being better for addon chips or what not, a good way to look at it is this:
What's the SNES' biggest problem? The slow processor. Addon chips that do extra processing are very easy to add. It's just an extra processor which can be very simple and limited to certain kinds of calculations (like a DSP, used a lot in mode-7 games).

Indeed. This is a good point, and does explain some of the difference. I do think that the point that Nintendo did use addon chips in a substantial number of games increases the validity of their case, too -- Nintendo said that they'd designed the system for addon chips, and then followed through by, well, putting addon chips in lots of games. There is complete consistency  there between the design and the execution.

Aside from the hypocrisy of selectively choosing when to count SNES addons as addons, you said that Nintendo designed the SNES for addons and by releasing games with addons, it proves "complete consistency there between the design and the execution". But NEC/Hudson designing the PC Engine around NEC's CD-ROM and showing it off before it was released and then following through with releasing and supporting it, that doesn't count and is instead a tacked-on stop-gap years later?

PC Engine: >6 million consoles sold in JP / >7 million worldwide / 700'ish published games for JP

Super Famicom: 17 million consoles sold in JP / 50 million worldwide / 1440 published cart games + 232 Satellaview games for JP

So basically, the main point of your argument, that somehow because the SNES and Genesis in the US got as many game releases as the TG16+CD did in Japan it did as well there as those did here, is based on absolutely nothing.  In fact, in Japan you expect consoles to get more game releases than they get in the West.  It happens all the time.  Cheap distribution costs, easy access to the market, low budgets for games that match the expected sales... that's how the industry worked, and still often works, there.

Um, if the Genesis hadn't been popular, a fair number of those games would not have been released on the platform, they, or other ones like them, would have been on other systems instead. You do understand that right?

The SNES is definitely the best for performing SNES-specific stuff, but not the best overall, aside from personal preferences. Just as with other consoles, people who like to say this are thinking more of the SNES's strengths, oblivious to some of its limits/weaknesses and seem to either ignore or be oblivious to the ways in which rival consoles are superior.

The SNES has the best hardware, if you don't count the Neo-Geo. The Genesis is second, and the Turbografx third. This is a fact, just like how the next gen, the N64 had the best hardware, PS1 second, and Saturn third, overall (or, for the generation after that, first Xbox, then Gamecube, then PS2, then Dreamcast). Each system has strengths and weakness, but system power is a combination of all the factors, and you can always figure it out. This gen, for instance, the PS3 is the most powerful, 360 is second, and Wii is way behind.

Plenty of people prefer the visual looks of systems that aren't the most powerful system over the most powerful system's graphics, and that's just fine, but I find it really annoying how people insist that no, not only do they like the graphics of that #2 or #3 system more, but it's actually more powerful too. Never mind that when you actually look at the overall hardware it isn't true, they like it more so it is, right? That's not how things work. The most powerful system is the most powerful system overall, not the one that wins in only the cherrypicked stats that that system wins in.

I mean, why insist that it's the most powerful hardware anyway? Does that have an effect on how much you like the system, or something? (lol! ) That doesn't make much sense, system power and how much you like it shouldn't be too closely related... the Wii are DS are my favorite systems this gen, for instance. I don't care that they're far weaker than their competition...

Or, to return to the SNES v. Genesis, I don't think that the SNES is better just because of its graphics, or something. Yes, I like that it can put more colors on screen and I like Mode 7, but those aren't the reasons that it's great, the games are. As for the specs though, the SNES has better hardware because it's got a good amount more RAM, a better, higher-end sound chip, many more hardware features, 64 times larger color palette and four times more colors on screen, etc. The Genesis is older hardware. It was great for 1988, but the SNES is two years newer. You would hope that it was going to have better hardware, and it does. The denials in this thread are both odd, as I've said above (seriously, why do you care so much about arguing against facts? It shouldn't affect how much you like the systems.), and off base; yes, the Genesis has a few advantages, but it's the overall picture that matters, not only the things the Genesis has advantages in.

The SNES was an amazing machine, more powerful than anything that generation apart from the Neo-Geo by a significant margin overall. The system has beautiful graphics, a huge color palette, 256 color visuals, awesome Mode 7 scaling and rotation, a very powerful sound chip, and was designed for addon chips in the carts, too. "Needlessly and wastelessly feeble" is completely ridiculous and as false as can be. A console is more than just its CPU, and the SNES proves that. The SNES is better overall than the NES, and is only even with the Genesis once you add on the addons (which adds more to the Genesis than the SNES, because well, would many people say the Satellaview even matches up to the 32X, much less the Sega CD?).

Indeed, the Super Nintendo is the one and only partial exception to the general rule that the most powerful console of each generation never wins (in sales, that is). It's a partial exception because of course the Neo-Geo utterly destroys it, and technically counts as part of that generation, but with its $200 carts, I think it's arguable about how much real competition it was...

The SNES was the least powerful of its generation. Neo Geo, Genesis, Turbografx, CDTV, and CDi are all more powerful.

I really hope you're joking there.

What about more speed and less slowdown?

As I've said, SNES games don't have nearly as much slowdown after the first generation of titles. And some have decent speed.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Black Tiger's search skills for the win! 

Yeah, for you people somehow it's both an addon AND part of the library, because it shifts definition mid-generation.  As I've said, you can't do that.  What something is at the start is what it is.... There weren't any PC Engine games after 1994, though.

I guess you were just kidding when you said "They [PCE CD games] do belong in the broader category of TG16/PCE games."  You seem to be struggling to keep your bullshit straight.

Also, once again, in a list like this , if you had also done Sega also would you have merged the Genesis, Sega CD, and 32X all onto one list, or would you have kept them separate?  Those two lists there are TG16+TCD and SNES+Satellaview, so of course a Sega list should include all addons as well... but you people keep trying to split hairs in order to exclude Sega's addons, which is absurd if you're including Nintendo and NEC's.

I've already stated in no uncertain terms that the FEKA sales numbers I compiled (but didn't post) did include Sega CD and 32X.

No, the idea that addons must increase system power is NOT valid....

I've never said they did.

I have, however, claimed that not all add-ons (and their games) are worth counting separately.  It's a point you seem to agree upon, though, seeing as you lump together CD, Super CD, and Arcade CDs.

.... remember the Wikipedia definition saying that adding a new media format is also an addon!

I never said it wasn't.

If you would have included all Genesis addons then it'd be a fair all-formats comparison....

I've said I would have multiple times.

.... but I'd still rather see a list that separates systems out from their addons as well -- the main consoles and their addons are not the same thing, and what is on what format is quite important.  It'd be fair to have both a merged list AND a separated list, but merged only I don't like.

Then compile your own list, but make sure you do it for all add-ons (including ram upgrades) and not just the ones you've deemed worthy.

The use of the term "device" makes it clear that they are NOT including things inside game cartridges.

How so?  NOWHERE in the definitions of 'device' or 'add-on' does it disallow the possibility of the 'device' being within a cartridge.  Do you not understand plain English?

If you look up any enhancement chip article (NES mapper chips, Super FX, , you will see that none of them call them add-ons. 

None?  That page is even linked from the SNES enhancement chip wiki page.

Anyways, they don't call them "videogames" either.  They read along these lines: "The Super FX is a family of coprocessor chip used in select Super Nintendo (SNES) video game cartridges."; in this case, the 'device' mentioned in the definition of 'add-on' is the co-processor.  It's not that difficult to understand.

They are enhancement chips in games, not addons.

enhancement chip = add-on

It meets the three criteria listed within the definition of 'add-on'

  1)  sold separately from the console
  2)  connects to the main unit
  3)  adds significant new functionality

Nope.  No one would ever call a game a "device".

Similarly, nobody would call a CPU a "game".

Read the quote!  Actually read it.  It is VERY clear that the add-on article is referring to expansion devices which are NOT games. 

NOWHERE in the description of 'add-on' does it say anything about the impossibility of one being built in to a game.  You're just making shit up again.

And once again no enhancement chip article calls the things addons.

And once again, yeah they do.

If you think enhancement chips are addons that's your opinion, but it goes against all authoritative sources, and you need to recognize that.

Like it or not, my opinion fits the text book definition of add-on.

It is, though.  It absolutely 100% is.  If you were right, sites like Wikipedia, IGN, GameFAQs, Gamestop, or any other game listing site would list things like the Super FX or NES mapper chips as addons, like they do the 32X or Turbo CD.  There's a reason why they don't: they are not addons.  They are enhancement chips built in to game cartridges.  They are categorized differently.

Your argument is invalid.  Such sites separate based on media type; if they separated games based on add-ons, they wouldn't separate downloads from physical media and they'd count ram upgrade games separately.

[PunkCryborg]

I found the real problem here

and it's the N64, not the SNES, that is my favorite console. 

[A Black Falcon]

CrackTiger's post above is a bizarre, bizarre post.  I'm seriously incredibly confused about why you'd somehow think that statements about hardware power are the same as opinion about what I think of the console as a whole, but those two things are completely different, you know... but you clearly don't, with this crazy post that combines game-opinion with hardware power  comparison and then insanely tries to call those two completely different, entirely unrelated things similar.  That's just ridiculous, stop it.


As for those numerous quotes, here are a few comments.

-For the block of quotes at the end about hardware power, I was comparing base systems there, SNES vs. TG16 vs. Genesis.  If you include addons, then the 32X is surely the most powerful system of the generation, and if you include the Neo-Geo it is of course.  Versus the TG16 and Genesis the SNES only loses in CPU power, but overall hardware power of a system is about more than just CPU power.  It's about overall hardware ability.

-For all of the quotes about opinion on games I like, that has nothing to do with this discussion.  I could respond to all of that stuff, but it'd be a complete waste of time and would divert this thread into something it should not be about, because none of that is in any way relevant here.  All I will say is that your massive anti-SNES bias shows.  I love all three major platforms that gen, they're all fantastic.  The TG16+TCD is certainly in my top 5 consoles ever.

-For the part about sales and Genesis games, I don't understand what you're trying to say there.  The Genesis did well enough in Japan to get some software support, obviously.  Not as much as the competition got, but some.  Because of Japan's easier distribution costs, systems could get good software support with less hardware sales than they would need in the West.

-Shmups - what?  I'm a huge Gradius series fan, and Gradius III is incredible.  So are Gradius I and II on the TG16 and CD.  All three are certainly among the best shmups ever.  Then I said Gradius III was the best, but next time I could say Gradius I is the best; with such incredible games, it's hard to decide.  As for the Genesis though, it does have lots of great shmups, but it doesn't have any from Konami...

Aside from the hypocrisy of selectively choosing when to count SNES addons as addons,

Console addons and addon chips / enhancement chips are not the same.  Sure, you've proven that I've used the word "addon" for enhancement chips before, but that doesn't mean anything... even if the word 'addon' was used there, the key term is 'chip', ie, chip in a cartridge.  Those chips are 'addons' in that they are additional chips in the cartridges, but they are not addons like the Sega CD because of the distribution method.    I know you people claim to not care about distribution methods, but for classification it is absolutely key.

you said that Nintendo designed the SNES for addons and by releasing games with addons, it proves "complete consistency there between the design and the execution". But NEC/Hudson designing the PC Engine around NEC's CD-ROM and showing it off before it was released and then following through with releasing and supporting it, that doesn't count and is instead a tacked-on stop-gap years later?

I don't get it, why would you say that addons are 'tacked-on stopgaps'?  An addon is just a hardware expansion with games that require it that is sold separately from the system it adds on to.  Usually they are designed after the original system, because the base system comes first, but also usually the idea for the addon was in development from early on in the project.  The 64DD was in development from before the N64's release for sure, for example, and it was originally designed to be a key part of the system.  It didn't work out that way, but that was the intent.  The Turbo CD is sort of like that, except the strategy actually worked.  Calling something an addon is not saying anything bad about it as a system.  It's just putting it into its category.

[CrackTiger]

I found the real problem here

and it's the N64, not the SNES, that is my favorite console. 

It's the only console of the time that doesn't have "hideous" graphics.

[A Black Falcon]

I found the real problem here

and it's the N64, not the SNES, that is my favorite console. 

It's the only console of the time that doesn't have "hideous" graphics.

3d graphics, that is.  The PS1 and Saturn obviously do 2d quite well.  And "hideous" is going a bit far as an overall generalization -- certainly not all PS1 and Saturn 3d games look equally bad -- but it is true that perspective correction and the rest of the N64's 3d features (anti-aliasing, triple buffering, z-buffering...) are really important things for 3d graphics which make them work much better.  Perspective-incorrect popping polygons are awful!

[TheClash603]

Since no one can define what the hell the Laseractive is, let's try another oddball.

WTF is a Turbo Express?  Is it its own system?  The games are the same as the TG16, but there is no TV out, where can you plug inanother controller, etc.  It isnt a console, what is it?

The Nomad is another one.  Is this the Genesis 4?  Or is it its own console?

[roflmao]

Since no one can define what the hell the Laseractive is, let's try another oddball.

WTF is a Turbo Express?  Is it its own system?  The games are the same as the TG16, but there is no TV out, where can you plug inanother controller, etc.  It isnt a console, what is it?

They were just waiting for modern techno-wizards to come along to add TV-out and a controller port. 

[esteban]

I always hook up my MegaDrive+MegaCD to my TurboExpress to use it as a monitor. Then I do the same with my PCE+SCD.

That little screen makes an excellent monitor.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Black Falcon is just too stupid for words. 

WTF is a Turbo Express?  Is it its own system?  The games are the same as the TG16, but there is no TV out, where can you plug inanother controller, etc.  It isnt a console, what is it?

The Nomad is another one.  Is this the Genesis 4?  Or is it its own console?

They're both handheld versions of consoles.

[ClodBusted]

Stupid in the way of he's not realizing that you're making fun of him all the time? ;)

[A Black Falcon]

Stupid in the way of he's not realizing that you're making fun of him all the time? ;)

???

Idiots who can think of nothing better to do than throw insults around should be ignored, not responded to.

Since no one can define what the hell the Laseractive is, let's try another oddball.

WTF is a Turbo Express?  Is it its own system?  The games are the same as the TG16, but there is no TV out, where can you plug inanother controller, etc.  It isnt a console, what is it?

The Nomad is another one.  Is this the Genesis 4?  Or is it its own console?

I wouldn't consider those two their own consoles, myself; they are handheld models of those consoles, that's all.  Handhelds are just consoles with a built-in monitor, so I'd just consider these another model of the system.  I sometimes do separate handheld (consoles) from (tv) consoles, but both are video game systems, and I don't think that just switching the format from one category to the other makes it an entirely new system, as long as it plays the same games.

You can also apply this to TV versions of handhelds, such as the Super Game Boy, Game Boy Player, or Playstation (Vita) TV.

[ClodBusted]

Hi Falcon, no harm intended. I'd even go as far to say that I share a good chunk of your opinions in the initial discussion, but after crawling through so many pages with the same arguments over and over and over again, I'm pretty much bored. Plus, I can't understand how you are apparently not realizing that there's no need to repeat yourself, which makes it possible to get ridiculous posts out of you. Stand to your opinion like everybody else does, and don't give a fuck if somebody disagrees. 'Cause there'll always be people who are not likeminded, and that's OK.

[Bardoly]

Disclaimer:  I have not read up enough on video game console hardware to call myself an expert by any means.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

I understand that ALL of the PC Engine CD games, Super CD games, and Acade card games COULD have been made as HuCARDs and played on the base Core Grafx if the HuCARD chips had simply been large enough.  Is this correct?  (Yes, I know that the theoretical HuCARDS would have been much bulkier, maybe even sticking out from the sytem, and would have needed RAM chips (like many SNES games) to be able to play most Super CD games and all Arcade cards games.)  The difference between the HuCARD format and the CD format (not counting the extra RAM for Super CD/Arcade, which COULD have been put into the HuCARDS) is simple the way that the data is stored.  As was referenced above in regards to computer games, I can remember a time when computer games could be purchased in multiple different formats - 5" floppy disk, 3 1/2" disk, CD, etc..., yet they were (and are) all considered Windows '95 games.  Even many games today can still be purchased as physical media or as digital download media.  Now, I do understand that computers are continually changing, but it seems to me that all of the PC Engine games are actually PC Engine games    , just with 2 different storage mediums.  I mean, if a video game console today has 2 different storage mediums, say for example, physical disks, or digital downloads (like the Wii virtual store, are they all considered Wii games?  Or if Playstation had regular-sized CD disc games, small-sized disc games (like Gamecube or PSP), and/or DVD disc games, would they all be considered Playstation games?   

Sorry for the NecroPhile bump, but while browsing some old posts of mine, I realized that no one really ever answered my above question.  Maybe one of our resident PC Engine game developers?

[PukeSter]

Bardoly, from what I know some developers used the extra sound hardware to improve graphics, such as Spriggran and Monster Lair.

Black Falcon is an idiot for thinking SNES Gradius III is the best shooter. I like it plenty, but it has way too much slowdown and even Konami's own Salamander outclasses it.

Yes, snes hardware has a great gpu, but it has a large amount of slow paced games and the sound is often bland.

[CrackTiger]

Disclaimer:  I have not read up enough on video game console hardware to call myself an expert by any means.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

I understand that ALL of the PC Engine CD games, Super CD games, and Acade card games COULD have been made as HuCARDs and played on the base Core Grafx if the HuCARD chips had simply been large enough.  Is this correct?  (Yes, I know that the theoretical HuCARDS would have been much bulkier, maybe even sticking out from the sytem, and would have needed RAM chips (like many SNES games) to be able to play most Super CD games and all Arcade cards games.)  The difference between the HuCARD format and the CD format (not counting the extra RAM for Super CD/Arcade, which COULD have been put into the HuCARDS) is simple the way that the data is stored.  As was referenced above in regards to computer games, I can remember a time when computer games could be purchased in multiple different formats - 5" floppy disk, 3 1/2" disk, CD, etc..., yet they were (and are) all considered Windows '95 games.  Even many games today can still be purchased as physical media or as digital download media.  Now, I do understand that computers are continually changing, but it seems to me that all of the PC Engine games are actually PC Engine games    , just with 2 different storage mediums.  I mean, if a video game console today has 2 different storage mediums, say for example, physical disks, or digital downloads (like the Wii virtual store, are they all considered Wii games?  Or if Playstation had regular-sized CD disc games, small-sized disc games (like Gamecube or PSP), and/or DVD disc games, would they all be considered Playstation games?   

Sorry for the NecroPhile bump, but while browsing some old posts of mine, I realized that no one really ever answered my above question.  Maybe one of our resident PC Engine game developers?

The RAM in the IFU and System cards is cart space, the same as other 16-bit carts. It's RAM instead of ROM because the CD-ROM fills it up each time it loads. CD2 game stages are <0.5 Mb each. So a 6 stage CD2 game could be a 3 meg HuCard. But a HuCard version would be even smaller, because carts can draw assets from anywhere in the rom, but CD games must load certain assets each time as well as duplicate code. Tom has said that the code in CD games can take up 0.25 megs, or half the space a CD2 game segment has. So you can see how much smaller a HuCard version could be compared to the sum of each loaded segment of a CD game.

Some developers used unconventional tricks, like how Monster Lair stores some graphical assets inside the adpcm ram. In theory, some SCD games could have used some of the segment storage RAM to make large calculations easier to program at the development level. I've asked the experts several times and the closest answer I've received is that the Arcade Card ram is too slow for anything but simple segment storage.

Even if some games (maybe Populous TPL?) did use some of the SCD ram for something you'd do with Work RAM, that still doesn't mean that the PCE could only have done it that way. The way that the PCE updates the screen and maybe does other things(?), is not the same as the MD and SFC. It is extrenely fast and doesn't need to load everything into RAM before it's rendered a frame. I can never remember the exact technical terms, but the bottomline is that the PCE doesn't need much RAM to pull of 2D games. PCE HuCards obviously prove this. It might help with real-time effects like polygons though. I believe that the SuperGrafx was given so much RAM as overkill to compensate for lazy developers who couldn't push the hardware well enough through skill and work and to just make it future proof in general.

Some devs who didn't want to put in the work to make their code efficient enough might have dipped into the SCD RAM, but it should have been a rare occurance if it happened at all, because the limited segment space was already so tiny and valuable. I'm guessing that you might ve able to use less space on code if you used some extra ram for calculations, but then you've just wasted the extra space you gained.

I'd love for one of the programming experts who have examined CD games to say whether any CD games definitely have or have not used RAM for more than content. Because too many console war fanboys like to say that the CD-ROM is a major hardware upgrade and that the System cards don't allow larger content segments, it only upgraded the Work RAM so that the PCE could handle running 16-bit quality games. But as Tom likes to say, SFII' alone proves that the PCE can do anything a CD game can (other than the exact same redbook and adpcm audio*) and actually more, as the SCD format couldn't handle SFII'. SNES fans like to say that CD games cheat to give consoles 4000 meg roms, but in reality it's the opposite: you get a string of tiny roms instead.


*The base PCE hardware can do adpcm audio through brute force. Tom has made some great HuCard examples.