New Gamasutra Article - TG16 Turns 25

[DragonmasterDan]

Interesting read.
I think if the team behind TTi had been in charge from the beginning of the TG16 then it would of done a lot better.

The article says TTi tried to get Street Fighter II, Dracula X and the NEO GEO Game ports.
I've always thought these games could of changed the outcome of the TG16 if they had been released in the US.

I recall talking to someone at TTI at the Summer 1993 CES about Street Fighter and they basically said the cost of releasing six button pads in the US alone made it impossible to do in the US. They also stated that most people who owned a TurboGrafx/Duo already owned a SNES or Genesis and those systems were getting their own versions of Champion Edition before the end of the year, so why bother.

The Neo-Geo ports were licensed by Working Designs.

[DragonmasterDan]

Interesting read.
I think if the team behind TTi had been in charge from the beginning of the TG16 then it would of done a lot better.

One other important thing I left out of the earlier message was that one key problem with the Turbo in the US was the franchise agreement between NEC and Hudson soft. NEC Home Electronics felt like had they not had to pay as steep of a licensing fee to Hudson for all licensed hardware/software and peripherals they could have made more money. Basically, all the hardware had to be manufactured in Japan through their co-op agreement and imported back into the US.

Had a different deal been reached for international distribution NEC could have shopped around for less expensive suppliers to manufacture the controllers, systems, multi-taps, and ultimately to manufacture HuCards that would have allowed more money for marketing and other resources.

[jlued686]

God damn...what a depressing article. There were so many opportunities just...missed.

I next time someone creates a "What Went Wrong?" thread, we can just link this thing.

[A Black Falcon]

... What?  You'd actually consider something you have to order from the catalog as being the same thing as something the chain sells in stores?  That's crazy!  Those are not even remotely similar.  Sure, maybe they had TG16 stuff in the Sears catalog, but what mattered to me was what I could see in stores.

I'll repeat myself: my point was that it wasn't as hard to get as some make it out, where you had to live in a handful of select towns or you were out of luck.  Get that through your thick skull.

Be realistic.  If people have to buy a console by mail order, while all the other systems are available in stores, of course at least 99% of them aren't going to do it.  It's a major barrier.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

*sigh*

Nowhere have I claimed that it was as easy to find as the SNES or Genesis.  NOWHERE!

Are you really this stupid?

[Opethian]

... What?  You'd actually consider something you have to order from the catalog as being the same thing as something the chain sells in stores?  That's crazy!  Those are not even remotely similar.  Sure, maybe they had TG16 stuff in the Sears catalog, but what mattered to me was what I could see in stores.

I'll repeat myself: my point was that it wasn't as hard to get as some make it out, where you had to live in a handful of select towns or you were out of luck.  Get that through your thick skull.

Be realistic.  If people have to buy a console by mail order, while all the other systems are available in stores, of course at least 99% of them aren't going to do it.  It's a major barrier.

You buy stuff online how is that any different? Do you only buy games at gamestop and Best buy?

[esteban]

@NEO GEO:

When it launched, NEO was available, I'd say for at least 1-2 years, at JC PENNY. Yes, JC PENNY. A demo unit with Magician Lord (later Baseball Stars 2) was very nice.

Of course,I don't know if this was a national rollout, or just a few select stores that carried it (i.e. In affluent areas). Willowbrook Mall in Wayne, NJ is near many affluent towns...folks who could afford it.

I don't have any hard evidence, of course, but I can't imagine demographics weren't used when determining what stores would demo/stock.

[Gentlegamer]

"The pack-in should have been R-Type. If it was R-Type, it would have made a bigger splash," says Brandstetter. In fact, NEC could have had Irem's hit arcade shooter; Hudson's port was a launch title for the TurboGrafx-16.

Johnny Turbo is right.

[esteban]

"The pack-in should have been R-Type. If it was R-Type, it would have made a bigger splash," says Brandstetter. In fact, NEC could have had Irem's hit arcade shooter; Hudson's port was a launch title for the TurboGrafx-16.

Johnny Turbo is right.

I don't know, Sega Master System already had R-Type...only shootemup fans would want a game like that,since it was challenging and would scare off (frustrate) young/casual gamers.

Brand recognition was high (most folks had at least heard of R-Type)...but was it a better pack-in than Keith Courage? I don't know.

PC Genjin wasn't released until much later....I feel that Legendary Axe might have been a good pack-in.

[DragonmasterDan]

PC Genjin wasn't released until much later....I feel that Legendary Axe might have been a good pack-in.

Legendary Axe would have been the best choice.

From my understanding that decision had to do with ROM size, Legendary Axe required a bigger ROM card than did Keith Courage which was part of the reason Keith was picked.

[MrFulci]

... What?  You'd actually consider something you have to order from the catalog as being the same thing as something the chain sells in stores?  That's crazy!  Those are not even remotely similar.  Sure, maybe they had TG16 stuff in the Sears catalog, but what mattered to me was what I could see in stores.

I'll repeat myself: my point was that it wasn't as hard to get as some make it out, where you had to live in a handful of select towns or you were out of luck.  Get that through your thick skull.

Be realistic.  If people have to buy a console by mail order, while all the other systems are available in stores, of course at least 99% of them aren't going to do it.  It's a major barrier.

You buy stuff online how is that any different? Do you only buy games at gamestop and Best buy?

Black Falcon, Maine may have had a different selection of stuff at stores, than other areas.

In the DC/MD/VA area BEST and Evans were similar to Service Merchandise, from what I understand (SM is not in that area). The catalog was like... The internet of that time? It's an OK analogy. If a game wasn't in stock at the store, you could go the catalog route. You could ask at the service desk, and if it wasn't in the catalog, a particular game title, they still may be able to get it for you.

Evans I know for sure sold the TG-16 system and game sin the store, as I bought stuff from their store.

In the past, I special ordered a few games before, without even being in a catalog. I recall doing that for NES Smash TV, which was such a disappointment over the arcade. Not long after that I got the SNES, and that game for it.

Radio Shack even had a catalog of sorts, it was bolted to a kiosk in the store, it had a few page sin there for TG-16 games, which I think they then got from TTI. I remember looking it over at one point.

Video Game Exchange had used TG-16 stuff.


Anyway, what this does remind me of, is how much of a PITA it could be to get certain stuff up until ebay, after it went OOP. I remember seeing the book, "Beavis and Butt-Head: This book sucks". I wanted it for Christmas. I was in no HUGE hurry. Later that year, I had not forgot about it, but noticed no one had picked it up for me. Turns out they had trouble finding it, it was OOP. So I took my money, and went looking for it. I was on a mission. I searched all over, used book stores, a book exchange store (Big one). It just did not turn up. I had a few places put me on their waiting list in case a used one showed up. never did, and I think I had to renew that every month.

Eventually ebay came along, and I got the book that way.

Ebay - The blessing and a curse.

[RyuHayabusa]

Great read! So many mistakes made with the Turbo. It could've been so much more successful with the right people behind it.

[jeffhlewis]

One of our local Electronics Boutiques was the only place that sold the Neo Geo at retail when I was growing up (ironically in the ghetto mall in Virginia Beach). I remember seeing the MVS for the first time at the arcade one weekend and then seeing the AES gold system and games for sale that same day at E.B.

Oh man I wanted that thing so bad, but it was unattainable on a level that nothing else can compare to these days.

We had turbo for sale pretty much everywhere though, with the exception of video rental stores. I remember Montgomery Wards having demo units and the CDROM upon release.

[dallaspattern]

Man, I straight up bought a Genesis for Mortal Kombat. That or getting SF2 on the console would've been huge.

[A Black Falcon]

... What?  You'd actually consider something you have to order from the catalog as being the same thing as something the chain sells in stores?  That's crazy!  Those are not even remotely similar.  Sure, maybe they had TG16 stuff in the Sears catalog, but what mattered to me was what I could see in stores.

I'll repeat myself: my point was that it wasn't as hard to get as some make it out, where you had to live in a handful of select towns or you were out of luck.  Get that through your thick skull.

Be realistic.  If people have to buy a console by mail order, while all the other systems are available in stores, of course at least 99% of them aren't going to do it.  It's a major barrier.

You buy stuff online how is that any different? Do you only buy games at gamestop and Best buy?

Black Falcon, Maine may have had a different selection of stuff at stores, than other areas.

In the DC/MD/VA area BEST and Evans were similar to Service Merchandise, from what I understand (SM is not in that area). The catalog was like... The internet of that time? It's an OK analogy. If a game wasn't in stock at the store, you could go the catalog route. You could ask at the service desk, and if it wasn't in the catalog, a particular game title, they still may be able to get it for you.

Evans I know for sure sold the TG-16 system and game sin the store, as I bought stuff from their store.

In the past, I special ordered a few games before, without even being in a catalog. I recall doing that for NES Smash TV, which was such a disappointment over the arcade. Not long after that I got the SNES, and that game for it.

Radio Shack even had a catalog of sorts, it was bolted to a kiosk in the store, it had a few page sin there for TG-16 games, which I think they then got from TTI. I remember looking it over at one point.

Video Game Exchange had used TG-16 stuff.


Anyway, what this does remind me of, is how much of a PITA it could be to get certain stuff up until ebay, after it went OOP. I remember seeing the book, "Beavis and Butt-Head: This book sucks". I wanted it for Christmas. I was in no HUGE hurry. Later that year, I had not forgot about it, but noticed no one had picked it up for me. Turns out they had trouble finding it, it was OOP. So I took my money, and went looking for it. I was on a mission. I searched all over, used book stores, a book exchange store (Big one). It just did not turn up. I had a few places put me on their waiting list in case a used one showed up. never did, and I think I had to renew that every month.

Eventually ebay came along, and I got the book that way.

Ebay - The blessing and a curse.

Sears and Service Merchandise both had catalogs, yeah.  And sure, you could order from them, and in a way I guess it was like a predecessor to online ordering... except it wasn't as accessible.  You'd have to order it by phone, wait for it to arrive, etc... not the same thing at all as seeing it in a store.  While there are things that could be effectively sold by catalog, games were never one of them.  Games are something people want to buy and have, not buy and then wait a week or two for, and people often buy them on impulse, based on looking at the packages.

Seriously, if catalog ordering was a successful way to sell videogames, then the TG16 wouldn't have sold only 550,000-650,000 systems in the US (since the article says 750,000 but 'one or two hundred thousand ended up sold in Brazil' at the end).  And the Neo-Geo might have been a moderate success as well.  The same could be said for the poorly-distributed Bally Professional Arcade, much earlier.  But those systems weren't successful.  If you aren't in most stores, on the shelf, few people are going to care; they're not going to go seeking them out in catalogs or specialty retailers.  And this is why NEC's failure to get their system properly distributed nationwide was such a major failing -- they gave up without even competing in huge amounts of the country, just because Sega beat them in the test market areas!  Sure, based on games they probably should have won -- the TG16 definitely had the better library through 1989, and probably 1990 too -- but they'd released too late and too hesitantly, and then gave up as soon as things didn't start out great from day one. 

So, blame it mostly on NEC, with Hudson taking some blame as well.  Don't blame the vast majority of gamers who didn't buy games from catalogs, but preferred to buy games they could actually see.  I never bought a game by catalog, and didn't even buy one online until the mid '00s.  This is something like what most people did, and it's entirely understandable.  But anyway, by the time the TG16 was relegated only to the catalogs, its failure had already been assured thanks to NEC's unwillingness to put the effort in to sell the system.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Seriously, if catalog ordering was a successful way to sell videogames, then the TG16 wouldn't have sold only 550,000-650,000 systems in the US (since the article says 750,000 but 'one or two hundred thousand ended up sold in Brazil' at the end).... So, blame it mostly on NEC, with Hudson taking some blame as well.  Don't blame the vast majority of gamers who didn't buy games from catalogs, but preferred to buy games they could actually see.

Once again, nobody is saying that catalog (or videogame store) distribution is the same as picking something up at your local K-Mart or Walmart.  The point is that the games absolutely were available nationwide and were never 'impossible to get outside of a few select markets'. 

Please continue to ignore this point and argue about some other bit of foolishness; it's in your blood.

[schweaty]

Seriously, if catalog ordering was a successful way to sell videogames, then the TG16 wouldn't have sold only 550,000-650,000 systems in the US (since the article says 750,000 but 'one or two hundred thousand ended up sold in Brazil' at the end).... So, blame it mostly on NEC, with Hudson taking some blame as well.  Don't blame the vast majority of gamers who didn't buy games from catalogs, but preferred to buy games they could actually see.

Once again, nobody is saying that catalog (or videogame store) distribution is the same as picking something up at your local K-Mart or Walmart.  The point is that the games absolutely were available nationwide and were never 'impossible to get outside of a few select markets'. 

Please continue to ignore this point and argue about some other bit of foolishness; it's in your blood.

word... if i could get a system and games in albuquerque, new mexico in 1990, they absolutely were available anywhere.

[mitsuman]

Seriously, if catalog ordering was a successful way to sell videogames, then the TG16 wouldn't have sold only 550,000-650,000 systems in the US (since the article says 750,000 but 'one or two hundred thousand ended up sold in Brazil' at the end).... So, blame it mostly on NEC, with Hudson taking some blame as well.  Don't blame the vast majority of gamers who didn't buy games from catalogs, but preferred to buy games they could actually see.

Once again, nobody is saying that catalog (or videogame store) distribution is the same as picking something up at your local K-Mart or Walmart.  The point is that the games absolutely were available nationwide and were never 'impossible to get outside of a few select markets'. 

Please continue to ignore this point and argue about some other bit of foolishness; it's in your blood.

word... if i could get a system and games in albuquerque, new mexico in 1990, they absolutely were available anywhere.

Geeze, I am in southern Indiana in a sprawling metropolis of ~250k people (  ) and I found TG16 stuff in '89 and the 90's, rather easily. Sure I ordered some stuff from Game Dude in LA, but a lot of stuff was straight from Toy'R'Us.

[DragonmasterDan]

Geeze, I am in southern Indiana in a sprawling metropolis of ~250k people (  ) and I found TG16 stuff in '89 and the 90's, rather easily. Sure I ordered some stuff from Game Dude in LA, but a lot of stuff was straight from Toy'R'Us.

Yep, if it were something like the Gamate that was sold only through mail order in the US. Then I'd say it was practically unavailable and unknown to most of the gaming population. But even then, you could still get one. The Neo-Geo was way more available for purchase than the Gamate, and the TurboGrafx was way more available than the Neo-Geo was.

[nosorrow]

I grew up in Quebec city, Canada, and I was 13 in 1990. I was also a video game nut. We only had the NES home (I adored it), but I found the Turbo qyuite appealing - much moreso than pre-Sonic Genesis.

...Anyways, back in my little French Canadian hometown, I can attest that the Turbo was readily available at Toys R Us, Compucentre and Radio Shack. I played quite a few games of Devil's Crush and Bonk on the Radio Shack display monitors while waiting for my mom who was shopping at the next store in the mall. You could even rent (!) Turbo games at the popular video store of the area. So, in my experience, the product was there, it just didn't catch on.

P.S. As a point of comparison, the Saturn + software was harder to find in 95-97 than the Turbo + games back in 90-91. This is purely anecdotal of course. Anyhow, it shows above anything how much mid 90s Sega screwed up, but that's another topic.

[jlued686]

word... if i could get a system and games in albuquerque, new mexico in 1990, they absolutely were available anywhere.

I grew up in a small town in Central Wisconsin. 10,000 people. We had a Walmart, and that was it. The neighboring town (30 miles away) of about 50,000 had a Sears and a Radio Shack. The only reason I got Turbo games was because my stepdad was a truck driver and would go to larger cities, park his truck in the Toys R Us parking lot, and pick up games for us. Yeah, some of the library (not much of it) was available in the Sears and Radio Shack catalogs. But the notion of buying them that way never even occurred to me.

I'm not even sure what the argument is, nor am I trying to take a side, but finding TurboGrafx games in the semi-rural midwest was an absolute pain in the ass for a 14 year-old kid.

[A Black Falcon]

P.S. As a point of comparison, the Saturn + software was harder to find in 95-97 than the Turbo + games back in 90-91. This is purely anecdotal of course. Anyhow, it shows above anything how much mid 90s Sega screwed up, but that's another topic.

The Saturn sold probably 1.5 million systems in North America, about the same amount as the Sega CD had and almost triple that of what we now know the TG16 sold (550,000-650,000 in North America).  The Saturn was, in general, much easier to find than the TG16. I'm sure there was some variation from region to region, though, yeah.

Geeze, I am in southern Indiana in a sprawling metropolis of ~250k people (  ) and I found TG16 stuff in '89 and the 90's, rather easily. Sure I ordered some stuff from Game Dude in LA, but a lot of stuff was straight from Toy'R'Us.

... 250,000 people is four times larger than any city in this state!  I'd absolutely call that a pretty big city...

Seriously, if catalog ordering was a successful way to sell videogames, then the TG16 wouldn't have sold only 550,000-650,000 systems in the US (since the article says 750,000 but 'one or two hundred thousand ended up sold in Brazil' at the end).... So, blame it mostly on NEC, with Hudson taking some blame as well.  Don't blame the vast majority of gamers who didn't buy games from catalogs, but preferred to buy games they could actually see.

Once again, nobody is saying that catalog (or videogame store) distribution is the same as picking something up at your local K-Mart or Walmart.  The point is that the games absolutely were available nationwide and were never 'impossible to get outside of a few select markets'. 

Please continue to ignore this point and argue about some other bit of foolishness; it's in your blood.

I meant that in too much of the US, it was it was very difficult or even impossible to find the system in stores that weren't Toys R Us, not that it was impossible to buy anywhere.  Mail order is a completely different thing that I did not consider.  Sure, including mail order it was available anywhere.  But as I said, people very rarely bought videogames or consoles by mail order.  If you're not in many stores, sales are going to be quite low, as indeed they were.  That's what I'm saying.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Like I said, it's in your blood.  Bees gonna buzz, cows gonna moo, black falcons gonna derp.

[esteban]

Just to remind folks: the TG-16 did not fail because it was harder to find in sparsely-populated areas. I'm totally biased, I know, since I live in NYC area, but, seriously, since TG-16 failed to gain traction in larger markets, the 13.5 people in Bumblefield, USA who would have purchased TG-16 had it been available—well, those 13.5 sales would not have made a significant difference.

[CrackTiger]

I found Turbo goods in lots of towns with populations of <10,000 - 20,000.

In 16-bit discussions like this, you have to always keep in mind that Black Falcon is going by factoids he read on the internet years later. What Turbo players experienced firsthand during the lifespan of the platform is of little merit.

Like people who started saying for a while that Magical Chase was mail-order only and one of the rarest Turbo games. If the many of us who walked into the many stores selling Turbo goods at the time weren't ruining the hype with our unbelievable tall tales, MC could be hyped/gouged even further.


I haven't had time to comment properly on the Gamasutra article, but it is only really useful for people already familiar with the history of the platform. The quotes are entertaining to read, but there's lots of bs'ing, especially by Johnny Turbo and it's unfortunately all put together by someone not familiar with the system and has an agenda to portray it negatively. A stream of quotes with descriptions of who's who without the spin would have been much better and not contributed to furthering misconceptions.

[A Black Falcon]

Just to remind folks: the TG-16 did not fail because it was harder to find in sparsely-populated areas. I'm totally biased, I know, since I live in NYC area, but, seriously, since TG-16 failed to gain traction in larger markets, the 13.5 people in Bumblefield, USA who would have purchased TG-16 had it been available—well, those 13.5 sales would not have made a significant difference.

Sure, that the system didn't sell well enough in the five target markets NEC focused on at first was a problem.  But this article makes it VERY, VERY clear that that wasn't why the system failed, not really!  That hurt a lot... but what killed it was that after it didn't sell up to expectations in those markets, NEC essentially stopped trying.  They never really pushed to get nationwide distribution.  They never put much money into advertising.  They refused to allow some major titles to release in the US because licensing fees would be too high. NEC's unwillingness to put in the money and effort required to compete in the US was the problem.

And sure, if they had done better in those first markets, maybe NEC could have been encouraged to try harder; the article definitely suggests this.  But giving up before most people in the US have moved to the next generation, NEC didn't even try.  Seriously, the article again and again makes the point that NEC shied away from spending the money that really competing nationwide in the US would have cost!  Even if their excuse was that the first target cities didn't see enough sales, that's just an excuse; who knows, maybe with a serious nationwide campaign they could have salvaged something more than they did.  Or maybe not, but at least they'd have tried.  Most Americans don't live only in a few big cities, America is a very spread-out nation.  You can't successfully sell a console if you're only aiming at New York City.

[Sadler]

I found Turbo goods in lots of towns with populations of <10,000 - 20,000.

In 16-bit discussions like this, you have to always keep in mind that Black Falcon is going by factoids he read on the internet years later. What Turbo players experienced firsthand during the lifespan of the platform is of little merit.

I lived in the Denver metro area during the system launch. It was definitely everywhere and I could even rent games. When I moved to a town of ~15K in NM, there was nothing. Toys R Us in Sante Fe was the best bet, but the selection was awful. TZD was awesome when it came around. Good times borrowing my parents credit card to place an order via telephone that would take 6 weeks to arrive.

EDIT: I admit I haven't read some of the walls of text posted, but I find it interesting that the article never called out Nintendo for preventing titles from being released on the TG-16.

[MrFulci]

Not to beat this into the ground even more, but I used catalogs a lot when i was younger.

The Sears Wishbooks, JCP, etc were ways to find things I may want, that weren't in stores (Black wolf roller coaster kit!), also to remind myself of things I had seen. I would make up my list for relatives and such based on what I saw in catalogs, in store, commercials, and through magazines, and this wasn't just video game stuff.

Special ordering games, was never an oddball thing for me. if it wasn't in a store, and I knew it was out there, my parents, and later myself, would call and track it down or have the store order it, or for some games try a used games store.

My feelings are, the TG-16 didn't catch on because there was so much already out there. TG should have been out there earlier.

Not to regurgitate it all again, but I had an Atari 2600, which was a bit before my time, but I had one. I had an NES. When I was to choose, what game system I wanted, as a 16-bit system, I looked at what my friends had that I could trade games with, we could play together, etc. Turbo Grafx, yes had Splatterhouse, Bloody Wolf, etc, but, I knew if plenty others with a Genesis, and soon, an SNES was being released, and I already knew of other friends who had that on their Christmas list, so I chose the SNES.

Next chance for a system, I got a genesis, since I knew of more people with that system, than a TG-16. After that, the Sega CD was added to the Genesis.

Finally, when I had more money of my own to spend, I got that Turbo grafx I had on the back-burner for years.

[nosorrow]

Indeed, catalog ordering was a big thing for any self-respecting 80s kid, lol. In my personal experience, I would show to my parents the games (1988-91) or Transformers/GI Joe/Star Wars figurines or ships (1983-87) I wanted for Christmas, my birthday or any other special occasion, and most often than not, they would order them from the catalog, be it from Sears or Consumers Distributing. So anyone who says catalog orders weren't common back in the 80s (and 70s also I'm pretty sure - I was born in 1977 so I don't know firsthand) has either a bad memory or is too Young too remember.

[A Black Falcon]

Sure, catalogs existed -- I was born in the early '80s, no internet then!  However, my family was never one who bought stuff from them except in very rare occasions.  I'd choose things I wanted for birthday lists by going to stores and making a list while looking at the stuff there, usually.  Once I started reading videogame magazines, I'd choose games based on stuff I was interested in from reviews and such as well.  (I first read Nintendo Power, which our local library got and I read from the early '90s on, but started buying and then subscribing added computer gaming magazines in '96, and subscribed to PC Gamer for four years from '97 to '01.)  I do remember looking through Sears catalogs, Toys R Us ad flyers, etc. looking for games, but they usually seemed to only show a few things (with pictures and stuff, I mean!)... going to the actual store was better, you could look at the actual boxes!

But again, there never was a video game console that succeeded based on catalog sales.  It didn't happen.  If the only defense for national distribution is "but anyone could buy it from a catalog", I think that the point about how awful NEC and TTI's distribution was has already been very effectively made.

Did even anyone here buy TG16 stuff from catalogs during the system's life?  I mean Sears or what have you, not the TZD stuff post-death.

I found Turbo goods in lots of towns with populations of <10,000 - 20,000.

I imagine that this would depend on where they were.  NEC's distribution was of course extremely spotty.

In 16-bit discussions like this, you have to always keep in mind that Black Falcon is going by factoids he read on the internet years later.

How absurd... of course, the best answer to this is the obvious one, that you don't have to experienced events in order to know something about them.  Almost all of the writing of history is based on this fact; I have a masters' in history, so I should know.

But even beyond that, I was around then, of course.  Sure, I only played a TG16 once myself, but I read about it in magazines, etc.  It was something I heard about a few times, unlike the Sega Master System, which I have absolutely no memory of ever hearing about at all during its life, or even for a long time after it.  For the TG16, I remember seeing comparisons of Sonic v. Mario World v. Bonk, and the Johnny Turbo ads as well.

What Turbo players experienced firsthand during the lifespan of the platform is of little merit.

As they say, eyewitness testimony is not always reliable.  What is reliable are overall trends, facts, numbers, proof of things.  Proof like the actual number of systems sold, which we finally know thanks to this article.  Of course peoples' stories are important too, though.  Certainly.  And that is there in this article, or at least in the author's other article, which is, as I say below, his personal story about his liking and owning the system during its life.  The author is someone who experienced the system firsthand during its lifetime.

Like people who started saying for a while that Magical Chase was mail-order only and one of the rarest Turbo games. If the many of us who walked into the many stores selling Turbo goods at the time weren't ruining the hype with our unbelievable tall tales, MC could be hyped/gouged even further.

With distribution as poor as NEC's was, and with how much worse it got under TTI thanks to their limited funds, this should be entirely understandable.  It's not about "tall tales", it's about that for a lot of people, even in areas which had TG16 stuff for a while, by mid '93 it was gone, and from that point on games did indeed seem to be mail order only.  As one of the very last HuCard releases, it does seem quite likely that Magical Chase shipped in small numbers.  Of course it was available in some places, though; it wasn't until the last couple of games that it seems to have really gone mail order only.  Based on this article, I'd mostly suspect the two '94 releases, Godzilla and The Dynastic Hero, for that.  Unless anyone here actually managed to find copies of those games in stores back then, and can prove otherwise?  I would imagine that it was a slow progression over time though, as stores that had been carrying it gradually abandoned the system due to low sales.

I haven't had time to comment properly on the Gamasutra article, but it is only really useful for people already familiar with the history of the platform.

That may help, but no, this really is not true.

The quotes are entertaining to read, but there's lots of bs'ing, especially by Johnny Turbo and it's unfortunately all put together by someone not familiar with the system and has an agenda to portray it negatively.

Someone may have an agenda here, but it's not the author of that article, that's for sure!  As you'd know if you read the other article, about his personal history with the system, the guy posted (also linked here, in another thread), you'd know that the author was a Turbografx fan, and did own the system during its life, and the Turbo CD, and the Duo.  He even says that Ys I & II is his favorite game.  So no.  No anti-Turbo bias by the author, certainly.  Just reality.

A stream of quotes with descriptions of who's who without the spin would have been much better and not contributed to furthering misconceptions.

The only major misconception that the article furthers is the "8-bit" thing.  I haven't seen anything else mentioned of note.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Black Falcon's gonna derp.

If the only defense for national distribution is "but anyone could buy it from a catalog", I think that the point about how awful NEC and TTI's distribution was has already been very effectively made.

That isn't the only defense.  Do you really think that of all those stores that had it in their catalogs that none of 'em carried the games in stores too?!?  Of course they did.  How many of us have now chimed in and said that we bought games locally yet didn't live in one of the five select markets or huge cities?

Did even anyone here buy TG16 stuff from catalogs during the system's life?  I mean Sears or what have you, not the TZD stuff post-death.

I did, having the game shipped to the store.  Earlier, my ma and pa bought a 2600 and a dozen or so games almost entirely through catalogs as well, but so what?  No doubt you'll dismiss this as 'unreliable anecdotes' anyway.

As they say, eyewitness testimony is not always reliable.

Because it's impossible for TG-16 games to have been available out here in cornland and nobody has ever bought a game via mail order ever, I'm obviously lying.  The truth is that I started amassing my collection just two years ago..... you got me.

With distribution as poor as NEC's was, and with how much worse it got under TTI thanks to their limited funds, this should be entirely understandable.

The initial guess of it being mail order is understandable.  What is not understandable is people stating it as fact (and even that it was never sold in Canada) and people still believing it to be true.

[CrackTiger]

In the same small town I grew up in, where I had multiple local sources for Turbo goods and where I bought no less than 30 Turbo games while they were current, plus a TG-16, TurboExpress and TurboDuo at launch prices... I had to mail order both of the Genesis games I bought during its first year, because Genesis games were both slow to trickle out and had a limited selection of variety. That and the fact that no more stores carried Genesis games than Turbo during the first year or so.

As goes without saying: don't rely on wikipedia for your facts.

As for the credibility of myself and others with firsthand accounts, I've been discussing Turbo/PCE online since 1996. Not only is everything I say about my experiences true, I've gotten to know so many Turbo fans over the past couple decades whose accounts I can rightfully trust. While Black Falcon was fooling around with his first console, many of us Turbo fans across the world were sharing our experiences while they were still fresh in our minds.

This is what's so dangerous about popular sites/mags/video stars casually passing around misinformation like this. It only adds fuel to the fire of revisionists whose entire knowledge is built entirely on what they heard that someone once heard that someone thinks that someome said that they saw a site that had a story that was really just pulled out of someone's ass and based on a negative bias.

[A Black Falcon]

Seriously, do you even have a real point?  We now know how the system actually sold, thanks to people from NEC itself.  We've always known that NEC's distribution and marketing in the US were atrocious.  Sure, it was available in some stores here and there, but not nearly enough of them, and in many cases probably not for very long; the article is great at describing how after not seeing the initial target-market success they wanted NEC US never gave the system the full-fledged support it badly deserved.

In the same small town I grew up in, where I had multiple local sources for Turbo goods and where I bought no less than 30 Turbo games while they were current, plus a TG-16, TurboExpress and TurboDuo at launch prices... I had to mail order both of the Genesis games I bought during its first year, because Genesis games were both slow to trickle out and had a limited selection of variety. That and the fact that no more stores carried Genesis games than Turbo during the first year or so.

As goes without saying: don't rely on wikipedia for your facts.

Nobody should ever rely only on Wikipedia, certainly.  I don't, and I would hope others wouldn't as well.  The article in the OP sure doesn't, it's very obviously based on original research.

As for the credibility of myself and others with firsthand accounts, I've been discussing Turbo/PCE online since 1996. Not only is everything I say about my experiences true, I've gotten to know so many Turbo fans over the past couple decades whose accounts I can rightfully trust. While Black Falcon was fooling around with his first console, many of us Turbo fans across the world were sharing our experiences while they were still fresh in our minds.

Why do you like to make up stuff?  I was mostly a PC gamer in the '90s, not console.  I was playing computer games mostly, that and Game Boy.  '90s PC gaming is the best gaming has ever been...

Anyway, facts matter a lot more than any personal account.  A personal account is only one persons' story, and the fact is, they are NOT reliable.  This is why courts always strongly prefer evidence to eyewitness testimony, when having to determine who committed a crime.  But even if a personal account of a console IS reliable, it's pretty much irrelevant on a nationwide or worldwide level.  Just because you found TG16 stuff in your area does not under any circumstances mean that things were similar for other people.  Personal accounts of how available various consoles were in their area are interesting stories, nothing more.  This isn't just my opinion, it's the opinion of anyone who wants to focus on an accurate assessment of how things are overall.  "Personal experiences mean nothing" is commonly heard in game sales discussions elsewhere on the internet.

This is what's so dangerous about popular sites/mags/video stars casually passing around misinformation like this. It only adds fuel to the fire of revisionists whose entire knowledge is built entirely on what they heard that someone once heard that someone thinks that someome said that they saw a site that had a story that was really just pulled out of someone's ass and based on a negative bias.

I know you clearly are ignoring my actual words, but there is no revisionist history or negative bias in that article, which is what this thread is about.  Quite the opposite, it's the best picture of what it was actually like inside NEC US and TTI that we've ever gotten, and it was written by a journalist who was a big fan of the system in the early '90s.  What you're saying here is ridiculous compared to reality.  And of course, most of what I've said in this thread is just to say that I think the article is accurate, so I'm not being "revisionist" either.

Of course, it's also not "revisionist" to say that no console has ever succeeded which had poor national distribution and relied as much on catalog ordering as it did in-store sales.  And that we now know that the previous guesstimate of US TG16 sales, 900,000, actually is far too high and the system actually sold somewhere between 550,000 and 650,000 in the US and Canada, with 750,000 total being manufactured for the Americas, shows this even more strongly than ever.

That isn't the only defense.  Do you really think that of all those stores that had it in their catalogs that none of 'em carried the games in stores too?!?  Of course they did.  How many of us have now chimed in and said that we bought games locally yet didn't live in one of the five select markets or huge cities?

I didn't say that.  I mean, here the system could be found at Toys R Us, so it was available SOMEWHERE physically, if not much of anywhere else.  It just wasn't all that many places, while the SNES and Genesis were very widely available.  (For the Genesis, this particularly would be for '91 and beyond; before Sonic, the system wasn't nearly as successful as it would become afterwards, of course.)

Because it's impossible for TG-16 games to have been available out here in cornland and nobody has ever bought a game via mail order ever, I'm obviously lying.  The truth is that I started amassing my collection just two years ago..... you got me.

Once again, I didn't say that.  You're reading things into my posts I didn't say or imply.  Of course a few stores here and there carried the system, and of course a small number of people ordered games by mail order.  "Few" and "small" are the key terms, however, as the system's very poor sales show; 650,000 systems sold at most, plus 20k+ Duos, is very poor for a system on the market for 3 1/2 years!  If NEC had shelled out the cash to get better distribution, get in most stores that carried Nintendo and Sega as this article and pretty much all personal recollections I've ever read about the system agree they did not, and had actually tried to market it, it surely would not have sold such small numbers.

The initial guess of it being mail order is understandable.  What is not understandable is people stating it as fact (and even that it was never sold in Canada) and people still believing it to be true.

Finding proof about the distribution of those later releases seems to have proven to be very difficult, you know.  Sure, Magical Chase probably was sold in stores, yes, but how few copies was it... must not have been many.

[jlued686]

Not to change the topic, but...

With all this talk about how the TG16 tanked and NEC not being too enthused about continuing in the console market, it'd be really cool if someone did similar in-depth retrospective on the PC-FX. I'd love to know some inside info on how that got off the ground. Granted, it'd likely be a short article. But still...

[esteban]

That isn't the only defense.  Do you really think that of all those stores that had it in their catalogs that none of 'em carried the games in stores too?!?  Of course they did.  How many of us have now chimed in and said that we bought games locally yet didn't live in one of the five select markets or huge cities?

I didn't say that.  I mean, here the system could be found at Toys R Us, so it was available SOMEWHERE physically, if not much of anywhere else.  It just wasn't all that many places, while the SNES and Genesis were very widely available.  (For the Genesis, this particularly would be for '91 and beyond; before Sonic, the system wasn't nearly as successful as it would become afterwards, of course.)

Because it's impossible for TG-16 games to have been available out here in cornland and nobody has ever bought a game via mail order ever, I'm obviously lying.  The truth is that I started amassing my collection just two years ago..... you got me.

Once again, I didn't say that.  You're reading things into my posts I didn't say or imply.  Of course a few stores here and there carried the system, and of course a small number of people ordered games by mail order.  "Few" and "small" are the key terms, however, as the system's very poor sales show; 650,000 systems sold at most, plus 20k+ Duos, is very poor for a system on the market for 3 1/2 years!  If NEC had shelled out the cash to get better distribution, get in most stores that carried Nintendo and Sega as this article and pretty much all personal recollections I've ever read about the system agree they did not, and had actually tried to market it, it surely would not have sold such small numbers.

[/quote]
I take issue with the last sentence.

Dude, please re-read my prior post: Turbo DID NOT FAIL because of national distribution. It could have been available in every Bumblefield town in RURAL U.S.A. and it WOULD HAVE FAILED because there aren't enough customers in all the Bumblefields combined to make a significant difference to overall sales (more sales? Yes. Significant sales to convince NEC to fight for America? No.

A separate issue, of course, is that TG-16 never had the "X factor" of its competitors (brand recognition of console, brand recognition of software franchises, highly effective advertising campaigns, game library appealing to North American tastes...sports fans loved Genesis, after all, etc. etc).

TG-16 was the Windows tablet of console war...IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW MANY MILLIONS OF $$$ Microsoft spent in marketing, it gained no traction.

[A Black Falcon]

That isn't the only defense.  Do you really think that of all those stores that had it in their catalogs that none of 'em carried the games in stores too?!?  Of course they did.  How many of us have now chimed in and said that we bought games locally yet didn't live in one of the five select markets or huge cities?

I didn't say that.  I mean, here the system could be found at Toys R Us, so it was available SOMEWHERE physically, if not much of anywhere else.  It just wasn't all that many places, while the SNES and Genesis were very widely available.  (For the Genesis, this particularly would be for '91 and beyond; before Sonic, the system wasn't nearly as successful as it would become afterwards, of course.)

Because it's impossible for TG-16 games to have been available out here in cornland and nobody has ever bought a game via mail order ever, I'm obviously lying.  The truth is that I started amassing my collection just two years ago..... you got me.

Once again, I didn't say that.  You're reading things into my posts I didn't say or imply.  Of course a few stores here and there carried the system, and of course a small number of people ordered games by mail order.  "Few" and "small" are the key terms, however, as the system's very poor sales show; 650,000 systems sold at most, plus 20k+ Duos, is very poor for a system on the market for 3 1/2 years!  If NEC had shelled out the cash to get better distribution, get in most stores that carried Nintendo and Sega as this article and pretty much all personal recollections I've ever read about the system agree they did not, and had actually tried to market it, it surely would not have sold such small numbers.

I take issue with the last sentence.

Dude, please re-read my prior post: Turbo DID NOT FAIL because of national distribution. It could have been available in every Bumblefield town in RURAL U.S.A. and it WOULD HAVE FAILED because there aren't enough customers in all the Bumblefields combined to make a significant difference to overall sales (more sales? Yes. Significant sales to convince NEC to fight for America? No.[/quote]
I did read your previous post, but it's completely wrong.  Most Americans do not live in only a few major markets.  In the US you DO need to compete nationwide.  I don't like your tone that insults pretty much everywhere that isn't a major city; those parts of America are large, and make up a lot of the country.  And even the urban areas are, in most of America, spread out -- there's nothing in the US like Tokyo, with that many people concentrated into such a small area.  No, to compete NEC absolutely did have to compete throughout the country.  That's what every successful console has done.  The NES would not be the NES if Nintendo only put much effort into that New York test market in '85 and let distribution everywhere else be badly scattershot, with poor marketing. 

Of course, I imagine you'll say that Nintendo's test market was a success while NEC's was a failure, but again, as I said in the beginning, with an earlier release (NOT releasing after the Genesis!), better marketing, better packin game, etc. NEC could have been more successful too.  And even with the mediocre showing in the test markets, with a serious nationwide marketing and distribution push like Nintendo and Sega did, the TG16 would certainly have sold better than it did.  I absolutely believe that very few people are going to buy a console that they very rarely see in person.  You do not succeed in America by only putting a strong effort in urban areas.  You just don't, and you're seriously underestimating that fact.

A separate issue, of course, is that TG-16 never had the "X factor" of its competitors (brand recognition of console, brand recognition of software franchises, highly effective advertising campaigns, game library appealing to North American tastes...sports fans loved Genesis, after all, etc. etc).

This is true, yes.  The TG16 didn't have Sonic and sports games like the Genesis, or Mario and Nintendo's third parties (Square, Capcom, etc.) like the SNES.  And it definitely hurt for that.  But of course, part of this is because of how cheap and ineffective NEC was at finding Western third-party support; for the Genesis Western support was absolutely key to its success here, but the article did a good job of showing how poor NEC's was in comparison.  Slighting EA while you sign with Cinemaware was not a great idea...

Of course the other problem is that the system was mostly popular in Japan from '88 to '91, and faded after that, while the generation didn't really get going here UNTIL '91.  And that is an issue; even with an earlier release and better marketing, perhaps the system would have started sputtering in '91 after Sonic and the SNES release.  It also hurt that Western consumers were more price-conscious and the game library was limited, so the expensive CD addon which NEC focused on in the '90s didn't sell much.  But even with those issues, the system easily could have sold several times what it did, and lasted longer overall; after Bonk, Rondo of Blood has to be the system's biggest potential system-seller.

Seriously, even if the library wasn't ideal for the West, there were more than enough quality games to compete from '88 to '91, and after that the TCD should have been able to hold its own against the Sega CD, at least.

TG-16 was the Windows tablet of console war...IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW MANY MILLIONS OF $$$ Microsoft spent in marketing, it gained no traction.

You don't know this because NEC didn't try.

Not to change the topic, but...

With all this talk about how the TG16 tanked and NEC not being too enthused about continuing in the console market, it'd be really cool if someone did similar in-depth retrospective on the PC-FX. I'd love to know some inside info on how that got off the ground. Granted, it'd likely be a short article. But still...

NEC thought that anime FMV was the future and pulled a system Hudson had designed back in '92 as a video playback-centric design off the shelf in '94 and shipped it as their new console. It didn't work out.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Seriously, do you even have a real point?

Do you?  You're all over the map with your bullshit.  I repeat: it's a fact that the system was available nationwide from several retailers, as opposed to the myth that it was only available in a handful of select cities (or mail order only as you're insisting).  Don't twist that into an argument that it was as widely available as the SNES or Genesis, because we all know it wasn't.

Finding proof about the distribution of those later releases seems to have proven to be very difficult, you know.

The burden of proof goes both ways, dumbass.

I did read your previous post, but it's completely wrong.  Most Americans do not live in only a few major markets.  In the US you DO need to compete nationwide.  I don't like your tone that insults pretty much everywhere that isn't a major city; those parts of America are large, and make up a lot of the country.

Nearly 175 million people live in metropolitan areas of 1 million plus residents, which is 55% of the population; stretch it out to metros of 500k and up and you'll include right at 2/3 the nation.  Thanks for failing.

there's nothing in the US like Tokyo, with that many people concentrated into such a small area.

Population Density:
Tokyo  -  16,000/sq mi
New York City  -  27,778.7/sq mi

Try researching your "facts" next time.

[JoshTurboTrollX]

I found Turbo goods in lots of towns with populations of <10,000 - 20,000.

I rented TG games and purchased them after the rental stores decided to sell them off.   I live in a town of <10,000

As for the credibility of myself and others with firsthand accounts, I've been discussing Turbo/PCE online since 1996. Not only is everything I say about my experiences true, I've gotten to know so many Turbo fans over the past couple decades whose accounts I can rightfully trust. While Black Falcon was fooling around with his first console, many of us Turbo fans across the world were sharing our experiences while they were still fresh in our minds.

The Turbo Pages and Turbo List?  Damn I miss the Turbo Pages...

[CrackTiger]

I found Turbo goods in lots of towns with populations of <10,000 - 20,000.

I rented TG games and purchased them after the rental stores decided to sell them off.   I live in a town of <10,000

As for the credibility of myself and others with firsthand accounts, I've been discussing Turbo/PCE online since 1996. Not only is everything I say about my experiences true, I've gotten to know so many Turbo fans over the past couple decades whose accounts I can rightfully trust. While Black Falcon was fooling around with his first console, many of us Turbo fans across the world were sharing our experiences while they were still fresh in our minds.

The Turbo Pages and Turbo List?  Damn I miss the Turbo Pages...

Places like the Unofficial Duo Page, TurboGrafx Network, Turbo Compendium, etc. The Turbo List was unavailable for me (to post in) for the first few years I was online with only my Saturn and then I was using my DC for a year or two after that before I got my first PC. Early on, after befriending people, we'd often chat through email about Turbo stuff. It seemed like forever that Tengai Makyou II was one of the rarest and most sought after PCE games. Now most English speaking Turbo fans can't be bothered with Japanese RPGs.

[DragonmasterDan]

Places like the Unofficial Duo Page, TurboGrafx Network, Turbo Compendium, etc. The Turbo List was unavailable for me (to post in) for the first few years I was online with only my Saturn and then I was using my DC for a year or two after that before I got my first PC. Early on, after befriending people, we'd often chat through email about Turbo stuff. It seemed like forever that Tengai Makyou II was one of the rarest and most sought after PCE games. Now most English speaking Turbo fans can't be bothered with Japanese RPGs.

Heh, I used the Saturn netlink as well.

With regard to Tengai II, I picked it up in the late 90s at a pretty high price. I found a geocities site that had a mini guide entirely in Japanese and was able to play through it that way and get past the part where I needed to enter Japanese characters. I also picked up Kabuki-den which I didn't play through until years later when I saw your guide for it.

[CrackTiger]

Finding proof about the distribution of those later releases seems to have proven to be very difficult, you know.

All Turbo games that were released in Canada (everything but the indy publishers and the last few mail order-only titles) were available at Radio Shack right up to the end. Radio Shack was everywhere in my Province and seems to have been across the country, but it's a different company than the American one.

If I had known that twenty years later that I'd have have to prove reality using hard evidence to a boy not even born yet, I would have saved my receipts.

[A Black Falcon]

Do you?  You're all over the map with your bullshit.  I repeat: it's a fact that the system was available nationwide from several retailers, as opposed to the myth that it was only available in a handful of select cities (or mail order only as you're insisting).  Don't twist that into an argument that it was as widely available as the SNES or Genesis, because we all know it wasn't.

So basically you're mostly agreeing with me.  Nice to know. 

(I never said that it was ONLY available in a few select cities, just that that's where NEC put the strongest effort into around launch.  The article in the OP describes it, how they did their launch, then kind of gave up after the launch didn't go as well as hoped.  That launch, of course, focused on a few metro areas.  So sure, it was available outside those areas, but very poorly distributed and marketed because NEC was never willing to spend the money required to get the game actually decently distributed nationwide, after the mediocre success of the test-market release.)

Finding proof about the distribution of those later releases seems to have proven to be very difficult, you know.

The burden of proof goes both ways, dumbass.

You do know that I'm not saying that Magical Chase was mail order only and never have, yes?  I'm not the one you should be getting mad at here.  The only games I've said I think were likely mail order only are Godzilla and The Dynastic Hero, the two '94 releases.

Nearly 175 million people live in metropolitan areas of 1 million plus residents, which is 55% of the population; stretch it out to metros of 500k and up and you'll include right at 2/3 the nation.  Thanks for failing.

Uhhh... first, so you've already forgotten that NEC wasn't focusing on all urban areas, but only a few of them, in the '89 launch?  Please remember this.  Second, "metro areas" is a pretty broad definition that includes huge amounts of suburban and even rural space, in the US.  Japan is small and concentrated, while the US is large and spread out.  So even with the "same" terms, in the US you're talking about VASTLY more space to try to cover.

there's nothing in the US like Tokyo, with that many people concentrated into such a small area.

Population Density:
Tokyo  -  16,000/sq mi
New York City  -  27,778.7/sq mi

Try researching your "facts" next time.

New York City has a lot fewer people than Tokyo does, and it's a much smaller percentage of the nation's population too.  Tokyo metro is 10% of Japan's population, in one metro area!  The US is more spread out and can't match that.  You will have much greater success in Japan focusing on urban areas than you will in the US.  This is a very well-known fact.

And anyway...

Greater Tokyo Metro Area - 13,754 km2 of land with 34,607,069 people. (of ~127 million in the country) for a metro density of 2,516/km2 (6,516/sq mi)
New York Metropolitan Area - 34,490 km2 of land with 23,484,225 people (of ~318 million in the country) for a metro density of 1,876/sq mi (724/km2)

Greater Tokyo has a far higher population density than metro New York, regardless of the population density in only the city itself.  Tokyo's population density only appears "lower" because some mountainous land and a bunch of islands are included in the Tokyo district, while the NY metro only includes highly populated areas, pretty much.  Looking only at metro densities corrects this.

Finding proof about the distribution of those later releases seems to have proven to be very difficult, you know.

All Turbo games that were released in Canada (everything but the indy publishers and the last few mail order-only titles) were available at Radio Shack right up to the end. Radio Shack was everywhere in my Province and seems to have been across the country, but it's a different company than the American one.

It's interesting that Radio Shack in Canada had so much Turbo stuff, because around here I barely ever remember Radio Shack having much of anything gaming-related, for either consoles or PC... they would sometimes have a few games here and there, but it was clearly not their main focus.  I do remember them sometimes having a small rack of games, and I got a PC game or two there, but games clearly were not something they cared much about.

As for your ridiculous (removed) attempt at an ending sentence, I have no idea what you're talking about, but if you actually read any of my posts you'd know my age.  If you want to talk about consoles from before I was born, look back before the Colecovision (that released the same month I was born).

[spenoza]

I bought my Turbo Grafx 16 BITD from Toys R Us. I lived outside of a city that, in 1990, ranked as the 123rd most populous city in the US, which isn't that big. I was able to buy hardware and games at Toys R Us, Kay Bee Toys, and Electronics Boutique. As long as you were within driving distance of one of those stores, you could buy a Turbo. Once it started to fade, Kay Bee dropped it, but Toys R Us and Elbo held onto it until it was really dragging. I was able to get Working Designs releases in both locations.

[PikachuWarrior]

I liked this article, seemed pretty comprehensive. Well, here's to 25 more years. How many of you will be around then?

[Nazi NecroPhile]

So basically you're mostly agreeing with me.  Nice to know. 

You're an idiot.

I never said that it was ONLY available in a few select cities, just that that's where NEC put the strongest effort into around launch.

By disagreeing with my original assertion, that's exactly what you were saying, and my original statement had nothing to do with a limited time frame at launch.

You do know that I'm not saying that Magical Chase was mail order only and never have, yes?

Did I say you did?  I was responding to your assertion that it's reasonable for people to make such claims.  Try paying attention.

Uhhh... first, so you've already forgotten that NEC wasn't focusing on all urban areas, but only a few of them, in the '89 launch?  Please remember this.

Neither esteban nor myself limited our arguments to the launch window.  Please remember this.

Second, "metro areas" is a pretty broad definition that includes huge amounts of suburban and even rural space, in the US.  Japan is small and concentrated, while the US is large and spread out.  So even with the "same" terms, in the US you're talking about VASTLY more space to try to cover.

Irrelevant.  The point was that the majority of people live in urban areas and not rural areas, having nothing at all to do with urban density.  Face it, you're wrong.

Greater Tokyo has a far higher population density than metro New York, regardless of the population density in only the city itself.  Tokyo's population density only appears "lower" because some mountainous land and a bunch of islands are included in the Tokyo district, while the NY metro only includes highly populated areas, pretty much.

Why look at just the city when you can include bits of Connecticut, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey?  Everyone knows that when you say Big Apple you mean Pennsylvania!

Looking only at metro densities corrects this.

You mean 'skews the numbers so you are correct'.

[Sadler]

How a thread that started with such an awesome article can devolve into this bullshit upsets me. Christ people, be the bigger man already. At least take it to Fighting Street.

[jlued686]

How a thread that started with such an awesome article can devolve into this bullshit upsets me. Christ people, be the bigger man already. At least take it to Fighting Street.

Seconded.

[A Black Falcon]

You're an idiot.

You need to read this thread again.  We don't disagree anywhere remotely near as much as you think.  So how about I respond to that part again.

I think the biggest disagreement is on the catalog ordering issue, really.

I repeat: it's a fact that the system was available nationwide from several retailers, as opposed to the myth that it was only available in a handful of select cities (or mail order only as you're insisting).

I never said it was mail order only, or only available in a few select cities.  It was MORE available in a few markets.  Not ONLY available there.  But apart from that, of course you're right, it was available nationwide, just in few stores in most of the country.

Don't twist that into an argument that it was as widely available as the SNES or Genesis, because we all know it wasn't.

This is confusing because of course this is a big part of the point.  NEC was a large company, much larger than Sega.  There is no good reason for the TG16 to have been so comparatively hard to find!  I know we agree on this, you've said the same thing.

I know, you're saying that even though it wasn't as available as those other two it wasn't hard to find, but I think that if it was as easy to find as you say, the system would have sold better than it did.  Unless we actually agree entirely on this point, which is also quite possible.

I never said that it was ONLY available in a few select cities, just that that's where NEC put the strongest effort into around launch.

By disagreeing with my original assertion, that's exactly what you were saying, and my original statement had nothing to do with a limited time frame at launch.[/quote]
I didn't disagree with your original assertion, though.  Not really.  You're already forgetting the actual discussion!

https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=17667.msg371491#msg371491 I said that around here, the system was not available in the stores you listed.  This shows that it wasn't available in those stores in-store nationwide, nothing more; I never said I thought it wasn't available in those chains anywhere, of course!  I'm sure it was.  I was just pointing out that it wasn't available in-store everywhere in those chains you listed, that's all.

https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=17667.msg371646#msg371646 This is the closest I can find to me actually saying what you seem to think I'm saying but never did, but even there, I certainly never said that everywhere was like that, only some places!  We all know it had poor distribution, there were certainly plenty of places where it was very difficult to find.

On the other hand, you say both https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=17667.msg371975#msg371975 that the system was available nationwide and also https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=17667.msg371583#msg371583 that it was harder to find than "main stream stuff".  NEC was a huge company.  The TG16 should have been just as mainstream as the SNES or Genesis.  That it wasn't shows how shoddy their distribution and marketing efforts were after expanding beyond the initial test-market areas.

https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=17667.msg371581#msg371581 Your defense is that people could order it from the store's catalog.  This started the debate over whether that counts or not.  You do follow that with this: https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=17667.msg371975#msg371975 but still, I probably do consider catalogs less than you do.  I know you could get gaming stuff that way, I just don't see the evidence of it a being popular way to buy videogames or consoles specifically.  Catalogs were plenty popular for other things, of course.


Of course, to criticize myself, I did use personal experience as a major point, which of course I shouldn't do.  Sure, my point was just to show that the system wasn't available in those chains everywhere, but still, it IS personal experience, and those vary too much from area to area to be particularly useful unless you compile a lot of them from different places.  It would have been better to focus on what is in the article, the parts about NEC losing interest after the less-than-expected test-market sales, that they never sold through that initial production run of 750k systems, etc.

Did I say you did?  I was responding to your assertion that it's reasonable for people to make such claims.  Try paying attention.

Attacking me for things others think that I don't agree with makes no sense.  That's the point.

Uhhh... first, so you've already forgotten that NEC wasn't focusing on all urban areas, but only a few of them, in the '89 launch?  Please remember this.

Neither esteban nor myself limited our arguments to the launch window.  Please remember this.

It sure would be nice if NEC had. :p

Seriously, we're discussing this article here, and the article makes it very clear that NEC didn't put nearly as much effort in as they needed to, and should have, after launch.

Irrelevant.  The point was that the majority of people live in urban areas and not rural areas, having nothing at all to do with urban density.  Face it, you're wrong.

... No, the point was that NEC focused only on a few market areas in the US at first, which were urban markets.  It was not that they focused on all of urbanized America.  The number of people who live in rural versus urban areas isn't all that relevant.  More important is the size difference between the countries!  There are so many MORE markets in the US, it costs a lot more to compete in.  The article explains this, and says how after the mediocre first-market showing, NEC wasn't willing to put in the money to seriously compete nationwide.

Why look at just the city when you can include bits of Connecticut, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey?  Everyone knows that when you say Big Apple you mean Pennsylvania!

I'm not sure what you're talking about here, but that's how metro areas work.  In Maine, for example, the Portland "metro area" includes almost half of the states' population, that in southern Maine, including some quite rural towns.

Looking only at metro densities corrects this.

You mean 'skews the numbers so you are correct'.

No, the skewing is comparing Tokyo prefecture data which includes thinly inhabited mountains and island chains to NY metro area which includes only populated areas.  The US equivalent of the Tokyo prefecture data you list there would be New York state data, and I assure you, its population density would be much lower than Tokyo's!

[JoshTurboTrollX]

cdn .meme .am/instances/500x/54630205.jpg

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Heh, that's awesome Josh.