$15 minimum wage

[BigusSchmuck]

This calls for immediate discussion! No seriously, need to take this off Facebook and put it up where we can debate the shit out of this.
I'll start off with this:
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/08/03/the-real-value-of-a-15-minimum-wage-depends-on-where-you-live/

And this:
http://singularityhub.com/2013/01/22/robot-serves-up-340-hamburgers-per-hour/

And finally:
http://newsexaminer.net/food/mcdonalds-to-open-restaurant-run-by-robots/

Skynet much?

[o.pwuaioc]

I love introducing my students to post-scarcity. Truly one day we'll live in a society where we don't have to work...at least as soon as we get rid of the "Protestant work ethic" ideologues.

[o.pwuaioc]

Fuck fuck FUCK the 1%. Especially Galam.

"Ok, so your a broke loser, grats!"

[CGQuarterly]

I'm not going to read any of that shit.

I have never agreed with you as much as I do right now.

Nothing personal, Bigus.  I just never read any links that anyone shows me.  I agree with Null, tho.  Would be nice to see minimum wage go up, but if you look at the minimum wage now versus 20 years ago, it has doubled.  The yearly salary of someone doing what I do was NOT half of what it is now in 1995.  The middle class is shrinking at an alarming rate.  It's interesting that the government not only doesn't do much to stop it, but actually facilitates it by making it easy for corporations to either ship jobs overseas or find other ways to fuck us over, when the taxes paid by the middle class are what keeps this country going.  Lower and upper classes both don't pay shit.

[BigusSchmuck]

I'm not going to read any of that shit.

I hope that when money comes flooding into businesses, the wages of those already well above minimum wage are increased. I am all for the baseline income being higher... but at the same time, it sucks for me that my spending power will be halved (or so).  I have very little confidence that the CEO/executives will opt to reward their worker bee's rather than line their own pockets and obliterate the middle class.

Point in case.... my employer recently laid off about 1/3 of the employees.  One week later, the CEO shows up with a brand new Lexus.

Fuck fuck FUCK the 1%. Especially Galam.

Where I work at this isn't happening. What drives me bonkers these fast food workers feel they deserve $15 minimum but all they are doing are outsourcing their jobs to automation. Now I know these CEOS are making oodles of cash and can more than likely absorb the cost. What about small businesses? Like the nursery across the street or the small comic book store? Can they really afford to do this? Even if this does become a reality wouldn't it cause more inflation? What about the lab techs and the phlebotomists who went to school/training for their profession (FYI they start out at $12 an hour at the lab/clinic I work at)? Or anyone else who has a trade? Are they going to get a bump in their pay as well or will they be laid off? If everyone got a bump in pay, then wouldn't they be back at square one?

[BigusSchmuck]

I'm not going to read any of that shit.

I have never agreed with you as much as I do right now.

Nothing personal, Bigus.  I just never read any links that anyone shows me.  I agree with Null, tho.  Would be nice to see minimum wage go up, but if you look at the minimum wage now versus 20 years ago, it has doubled.  The yearly salary of someone doing what I do was NOT half of what it is now in 1995.  The middle class is shrinking at an alarming rate.  It's interesting that the government not only doesn't do much to stop it, but actually facilitates it by making it easy for corporations to either ship jobs overseas or find other ways to fuck us over, when the taxes paid by the middle class are what keeps this country going.  Lower and upper classes both don't pay shit.

I was just trying to get the debate going, all I have to say is... Skynet rules. Enough said. lol

[o.pwuaioc]

I'm not going to read any of that shit.

I hope that when money comes flooding into businesses, the wages of those already well above minimum wage are increased. I am all for the baseline income being higher... but at the same time, it sucks for me that my spending power will be halved (or so).  I have very little confidence that the CEO/executives will opt to reward their worker bee's rather than line their own pockets and obliterate the middle class.

Point in case.... my employer recently laid off about 1/3 of the employees.  One week later, the CEO shows up with a brand new Lexus.

Fuck fuck FUCK the 1%. Especially Galam.

Where I work at this isn't happening. What drives me bonkers these fast food workers feel they deserve $15 minimum but all they are doing are outsourcing their jobs to automation. Now I know these CEOS are making oodles of cash and can more than likely absorb the cost. What about small businesses? Like the nursery across the street or the small comic book store? Can they really afford to do this? Even if this does become a reality wouldn't it cause more inflation? What about the lab techs and the phlebotomists who went to school/training for their profession (FYI they start out at $12 an hour at the lab/clinic I work at)? Or anyone else who has a trade? Are they going to get a bump in their pay as well or will they be laid off? If everyone got a bump in pay, then wouldn't they be back at square one?

That's not quite how economics works. The government and businesses are doing everything they can to cause inflation. That's going to happen regardless of a minimum wage. Minimum wage ought to guarantee that the lowest wages aren't made irrelevant by inflation. Ideally, when the prices of goods go up, pay should go up. That does happen, but only to a very, very select few people. Wages, not just for burger flippers, have been stagnant since the Reagan years, yet the prices of things have doubled.

Better minimum wages means that more and more workers are able to buy more and more things, which in turn means that companies see more and more revenue. This generates wealth.

It's very basic, and is one of the surer economic principles.

[ToyMachine78]

I love introducing my students to post-scarcity. Truly one day we'll live in a society where we don't have to work...at least as soon as we get rid of the "Protestant work ethic" ideologues.

The day no one has to work is a fucking pipe dream.

[o.pwuaioc]

I love introducing my students to post-scarcity. Truly one day we'll live in a society where we don't have to work...at least as soon as we get rid of the "Protestant work ethic" ideologues.

The day no one has to work is a fucking pipe dream.

"The day we don't need horses to move from city to city quickly is a pipe dream."
"The day we can fly like birds through the air is a pipe dream."
"The day we can land on the moon is a pipe dream."
"The day we can instantly receive information from an encyclopedia that is edited by millions is a pipe dream."

It's a real future. It's not really soon, but it's a real future. Oh, sure, we'll probably have something like Vonnegut's Piano Player, where some people have to maintain the system, but no one particular person would theoretically have to.

[PCEngineHell]

The only thing I find kinda funny about it in a way is that those in fast food work who do get the raise will probably be making more then employees at Konami.

[BlueBMW]

They probably deserve more pay than the guys at Konami...

[OldMan]

Better minimum wages means that more and more workers are able to buy more and more things, which in turn means that companies see more and more revenue. This generates wealth

Hunh?
Higher minimum wage means more workers are able to buy more things (in the short term).
More demand means higher prices. After things settle, the average worker will be able to buy less, because taxes will also go up.

All of which means that currency is worth less. Companies may book more revenue, but in real terms it means each unit is worth less. So your $15 return on investment will probably only buy you a stick of gum.  That's not generating wealth, it's inflating the numbers.

[my $0.02]

[o.pwuaioc]

Better minimum wages means that more and more workers are able to buy more and more things, which in turn means that companies see more and more revenue. This generates wealth

Hunh?
Higher minimum wage means more workers are able to buy more things (in the short term).
More demand means higher prices. After things settle, the average worker will be able to buy less, because taxes will also go up.

All of which means that currency is worth less. Companies may book more revenue, but in real terms it means each unit is worth less. So your $15 return on investment will probably only buy you a stick of gum.  That's not generating wealth, it's inflating the numbers.

[my $0.02]

That's not how that works. That's not how any of that works. If that were the case, milk would be thousands of dollars a pound, computers would be millions. More demand != high prices. Or rather, that's a very small metric, and only important to a limited class of items.

[BlueBMW]

Some inflation might be beneficial to essentially monetize some of the debts both national and personal (like student loans etc)

[wildfruit]

For me, the main cause of stagnation is housing. If rent / house prices were not so inflated people could put so much more cash back into the economy. Where I work 2 bed houses rent for about £3000/$4600 a month. Ridiculous. I had to move 25 miles out of the city to find an affordable place and even then its a struggle.

[esteban]

CATHARTIC:

Some folks here have posited ideas that are creative, but do not reflect actual economic principles/dynamics.

Historically, economic policies have overwhelmingly  benefitted certain groups in society (hint: the powerful). 

The groups with the LEAST political/economic/social power are basically screwed, and even a minimum wage isn't going to fix the fundamental inequality, but it is a (small) step in the right direction.

If you honestly believe that raising the minimum wage is a bad thing, you are one brutal bastard, because a minimum wage is NOT A LIVING WAGE.

A "living wage" means you ( and your family, if you have one) can afford the bare necessities of life. Sadly, the "minimum wage" is not the same thing—minimum wage does not guarantee that you can afford rent, food, medical, dental, etc. etc.

MY STANCE: Fast-food workers should be earning a living wage.

The debate in this country, as far as I am concerned, should be about raising all levels to a LIVING WAGE, which of course is (almost always) considerably higher than the current minimum wage.

As someone pointed out: wages/buying power of the average worker in the U.S. have been STAGNANT since the 70's. That means we, the average worker, have been getting screwed for decades...and it has only gotten worse (the growing inequality in the U.S. is now part of the national dialogue, which is certainly a step in the right direction—at least it makes the news and acknowledges the problem exists).

In my experience, folks who are initially opposed to raising minimum wage (or, establishing a living wage) usually become more supportive of the idea when they see how brutal poverty/inequality truly is in this country.

If you are angry, please target your anger at the folks (the privileged, corporations, the rich) who exploit workers—on a massive scale—for their own benefit.

I know it is passé and a cliche, but this is what "Class War" is all about—inequality, and how state and Federal policies can exacerbate or alleviate this inequality.

[ToyMachine78]

I love introducing my students to post-scarcity. Truly one day we'll live in a society where we don't have to work...at least as soon as we get rid of the "Protestant work ethic" ideologues.

The day no one has to work is a fucking pipe dream.

"The day we don't need horses to move from city to city quickly is a pipe dream."
"The day we can fly like birds through the air is a pipe dream."
"The day we can land on the moon is a pipe dream."
"The day we can instantly receive information from an encyclopedia that is edited by millions is a pipe dream."

It's a real future. It's not really soon, but it's a real future. Oh, sure, we'll probably have something like Vonnegut's Piano Player, where some people have to maintain the system, but no one particular person would theoretically have to.

If no one works how are you going to eat? Grow your own food and livestock? Well that's working. How are goods going to be delivered to the market ? Drones? Robots? Lol They break down, some one has to work to fix them. Who is going to provide the medical services you need?

I would much rather keep my current job, than live some little house on the prairie existence. That would be true work.

No matter what kind of existence you can imagine, some one is going to have to work to oversee processes and procedures, and perform maintenance to keep things running.

[ToyMachine78]

Sourced from Forbes:

Debating the Merits of the Minimum Wage
Is the minimum wage a good thing? It depends on who you ask. For example, famed economist Milton Friedman was opposed to a minimum wage stating that, "...people whose skills are not sufficient to justify that kind of a wage will be unemployed." He further conveyed that it was no coincidence that the unemployment rate for teens at the time was twice that of adults. Of course this was taken from an interview conducted several decades ago. More recently, Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman debunked this argument by suggesting that raising the minimum wage to $15 per hour would not cause big companies like McDonald's to cut jobs because these jobs cannot be moved overseas or replaced by machines. He's probably correct about a large company like McDonald's. However, many smaller companies might disagree. As I've stated, the merits of raising it depends on who you ask. Personally, I have no dog in the hunt. Although I do have an opinion after examining the facts, I have no bias on the matter. Another proponent is the U.S. Department of Labor which suggests that raising the minimum wage would help the economy in a number of ways. For example, it would increase consumer purchasing power and reduce employee turnover. I'll address that in a moment.

The Effect of the Minimum Wage on Economic Growth
Would raising the minimum wage to $15 per hour help our economy? Follow along as I provide some facts (data is from 2012-13). The total U.S. labor force was roughly 158.7 million. About 47%, or 75.3 million workers, were paid an hourly wage. Of all hourly workers about 4.7%, or 3.54 million, earned a wage equal to or below the minimum wage. For our discussion, let's assume the entire group earned the minimum wage. If you multiply the number of workers who earned the minimum wage by the current minimum wage, you'd get the total wages earned by this group (3.54 million X $7.25 = $26.1 million). If everyone of these workers received an increase to $15 per hour, the total wage earned by this group would be $54.0 million. This represents an increase of $27.9 million. If 100% of this income was spent on products and services, it would only equate to 1.25% of total U.S. GDP. Here's my point. This increase, even if completely spent (which is doubtful), would not be very significant. Therefore, in my view, the economic benefit "argument" is a red herring. What should a worker be paid?

How Much Should a Worker Be Paid?
Most agree that a worker should be paid what he or she is worth. In other words, a worker should be paid a wage commensurate with the skills required for the job. Under this assumption, the minimum wage argument is weak. Why? First, in a true, free-market economy (which is not what we have), the labor market would set the rate of pay for all jobs based on a number of factors. Consider this. Should a 16 year old flipping burgers at McDonald's be paid the same as a 30 year old single mother working as a certified nursing assistant? Currently, these vocations receive about the same wage. What does the single mother's maternal status have to do with her rate of pay? Nothing really. But this is the type of argument we find today. It's all about the poor, suffering, and needy and how the government will fix all of our woes. Don't misunderstand, I feel for these people, regardless of the circumstances which brought them to a difficult place. Even if it's all their own doing. I'm simply trying to make a point that economics are blind to emotion. There is another possible downside to a drastic increase in this wage.

Raising the minimum wage from $7.25 to $15.00 could put pressure on other lower-paying jobs which pay slightly more than the existing minimum. This could cause stress in the compensation structure of many small businesses. In fact, any mandate from the government which increases the cost of doing business could result in a number of consequences, mostly negative. First, it could cause prices to rise as businesses attempt to protect profit margins. Next, it could cause a loss of jobs if the business is forced to reduce expenses, again, to maintain profitability. It could also lead to an increase in automation, depending on the specific job. Finally, it could have little or no effect on small businesses, if an adequate profit margin already exists and the owner is willing to absorb the additional expense.

Conclusion
Even though it's true that raising the minimum wage would result in more money for those who receive it, because it is so low (hence the word minimum), it would have very little effect on the U.S. economy. Therefore, I think this is more about class envy than anything else. And, like so many arguments today, you can't overlook the political component.

Despite efforts to the contrary, America is still the "Land of Opportunity" for those who will roll up their sleeves and work hard to obtain the necessary skills for a higher paying position. A minimum wage job, after all, should never be the end game. Rather it should be a beginning step in the career path for those inclined to improve their circumstances. Unfortunately, we have a country filled with individuals who are satisfied with a welfare check, but who are fully capable of working and becoming a productive member of society. If government really wants to help our economy, it'll focus on getting people off of entitlements and back to work. How long will it take before the electorate starts to figure out that the game played by many elected officials is not intended to boost the economy, but rather to garner votes. How long?

[Nazi NecroPhile]

I'm all for adjusting minimum wage to keep pace with inflation, but fuck these asshats that think minimum wage should be sufficient to raise a family of four.  They're not supposed to!  If you're not smart enough or dedicated enough for anything other than an entry level position, then both adults will need to work full time (and one might need a second part time job too), and even then the dreams of home ownership, a new car every two years, and retiring at 62 to travel the world are going to be out of reach.

Depending on where you live, minimum wage can indeed be a living wage.  If you live in Manhattan, you're fucked (you're gonna be fucked at $15 an hour too), but I know it's doable here in cornland.  While I make more than the minimum, $7.25 would be just enough to cover my essential costs; I'd have to get a second job (or get roommate) if I wanted to keep the garage, keep buying OBEY now and then, go on vacations, etc., but that's the price of being uneducated, unwilling to learn a trade, and unable to keep a job long enough to move up the chain.

[ToyMachine78]

Sourced from Forbes:

blaaahb blbabbb blaaah blah blah blab blab

I skipped right to the conclusion.

I despise ultra wealthy people who are ignorant enough to believe statements like "Unfortunately, we have a country filled with individuals who are satisfied with a welfare check, but who are fully capable of working and becoming a productive member of society."

Sure there are some welfare queens (and fuuuuuck them, lazy cunts), but their combined suckling on the teet of the government doesn't even register in comparison to that of corporate welfare.

And it is not true that all men are created equal, at least not when it comes to being able to develop and monetize a skill set.  Laziness is not a factor to individuals who simply lack the liquid intelligence to land a higher paying job.  Should they be damned to live in poverty?  Do we not care enough about our own kind to help the less fortunate feed their families?

Keep them at the poverty line.  Take away assistance programs.  Give the CEOs fat bonuses.  Watch as crime rates soar.

brought to you by DoxPhile

Well here down south you see a lot of welfare queens. My wife taught first grade in a school that was 80% free/reduced lunch. When you looked at the family demographics, it obvious that personal choice contributes a lot to poverty. She had one student who's mother had 8 children from 8 different men! Use a condom or birth control for christs sake! The health dept gives it away for free!

Besides, the Congressional Budget Office's own report acknowledges that increasing the wage will cause the unemployment rate to rise for the lowest skilled workers. And any gains in wage will be offset by a rise in commodity prices.  Which further hurts those on the lowest rung of the ladder. Not only are they out of work, but now food and necessities cost more.

So those that this is supposed to help will actually be hurt the most.

[ToyMachine78]

I'm all for adjusting minimum wage to keep pace with inflation, but fuck these asshats that think minimum wage should be sufficient to raise a family of four.  They're not supposed to!  If you're not smart enough or dedicated enough for anything other than an entry level position, then both adults will need to work full time (and one might need a second part time job too), and even then the dreams of home ownership, a new car every two years, and retiring at 62 to travel the world are going to be out of reach.

Depending on where you live, minimum wage can indeed be a living wage.  If you live in Manhattan, you're fucked (you're gonna be fucked at $15 an hour too), but I know it's doable here in cornland.  While I make more than the minimum, $7.25 would be just enough to cover my essential costs; I'd have to get a second job (or get roommate) if I wanted to keep the garage, keep buying OBEY now and then, go on vacations, etc., but that's the price of being uneducated, unwilling to learn a trade, and unable to keep a job long enough to move up the chain.

This!

[wildfruit]

You are conditioned from an early age to "know your place" in the socioeconomic hierarchy. There is enough of everything in this world for all to have everything they need. Work should be regarded as a means to pursue pleasure and get the wants rather than the needs. Whether you earn 10k or 100k it's not even pocket change to those pulling the strings.
The meat industry is a great example of profit over forward thinking. So much effort is required for a small outcome. If same land was used for growing food instead..well you get the idea.
No I'm not vegetarian either.

[seieienbu]

I think people in LA and NYC complaining for a $15 minimum wage might make a lot of sense.  I also think that in the middle of nowhere minimum wage is probably fine at a lower rate.  I think more cities should take the Seattle approach and increase the minimum wage in their area where things are more expensive as opposed to try to force places with smaller population and lower prices to keep up with what's needed in large coastal cities.

I should probably mention that I'm no economist or whatever so my opinion probably should hold no bearing on anyone.

[thesteve]

for decades now credit has been the primary driver of inflation
the current pricing in this country depending on category requires a $25 to $50 wage (not that id suggest it)
raising interest rates significantly would be a much more effective way to increase buying power then increasing the minimum wage, as it would cause mass deflation

[Dicer]

Min wage should have been raised at a steady fair rate all along, and well it wasn't so now we are all fighting over this $15 and hour, when in reality when it's actually passed and implemented in most place, it will STILL be behind a fair median for cost of living...

Just build the robots to replace everyone already...FUCK!!!

[o.pwuaioc]

for decades now credit has been the primary driver of inflation
the current pricing in this country depending on category requires a $25 to $50 wage (not that id suggest it)
raising interest rates significantly would be a much more effective way to increase buying power then increasing the minimum wage, as it would cause mass deflation

Mass deflation is bad politics, though, as big businesses get "hurt" (sc. it cuts into the billions in profit, which might make a small ripple in shareholders, but really only hurts high-frequency traders).

Good for people, bad for those who fund politicians, therefore we'll never see it.

[CGQuarterly]

I'm all for adjusting minimum wage to keep pace with inflation, but fuck these asshats that think minimum wage should be sufficient to raise a family of four.  They're not supposed to!  If you're not smart enough or dedicated enough for anything other than an entry level position, then both adults will need to work full time (and one might need a second part time job too), and even then the dreams of home ownership, a new car every two years, and retiring at 62 to travel the world are going to be out of reach.

That's pretty much it, right there.  These days, everyone thinks that they are entitled to a certain life, no matter what.  When I was a kid, we didn't have a lot of money.  We didn't have a big TV, we had an old car, didn't go on vacations, didn't eat out, etc.  We lived just fine, mind you.  I had a happy childhood.  But we lived within our means.  I see WAY too many people that I know doing and buying shit that they can't afford, and then having to pay off all this extra debt that they're saddled with.

[esteban]

DEAR LORD, some of you are spouting off ignorant views of poverty, the poor, and their morality/work ethic.

STEREOTYPE MUCH?

(1) POVERTY IS NOT ABOUT LAZINESS OR MORAL FAILURE

(2) You use this tactic to DEHUMANIZE real human suffering and injustice. Your version of reality is filled with caricatures and stereotypes of "lazy bums" and "Welfare queens" and god knows what else (well, I bet I know what you think, but then your xenophobia, classism, sexism, racism, etc. would be revealed).

(3) STOP YOUR BULLSHIT. I have been working  with struggling, poor & working class students/families in L.A. County & NYC for 10+ years.

(4) Poverty is caused by many different things...it is a complex intersection of personal, social, economic and political inequality. Yet you try to reduce it to one factor (work harder!). Ha! As if the folks killing themselves for pennies aren't working hard enough.

(5) welfare queen = a racist/classist/sexist stereotype, designed to DEHUMANIZE...

(6) There will always be some folks who scam the system (the so-called "freerider problem"), but the folks with power & privilege scam the system to a degree and a scale that far exceeds any problems created by alleged "welfare queens".

(7)The totality of all welfare scams ($) is a pittance compared to the scams/subsidies/corporate welfare enjoyed by the elite ($$$$)

EX: Nulltard presented an obvious one. Corporate welfare. Or how about this: lots of rich bastards in NJ, with mansions on huge estates, game the system to qualify for  "farm" benefits/tax easements/etc. that were designed to help legitimate farmers.

YOU WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND POVERTY IF YOU DON'T LOOK AT ITS STRUCTURAL CAUSES.

(7) the "good" (positive outcomes) generated by raising minimum wage/welfare programs are HUGE (survival!) Vs. any scammers gaming the system.

[o.pwuaioc]

No one is saying raise a family of four. But in many places, minimum wage isn't sufficient to raise a family of one. Wages have been stagnant for decades. Keeping minimum wage low will literally cause massive economic damages after suppressing the purchasing power of millions of Americans. Plus, a hike in minimum wage means a hike in everyone else's salaries, too. It should be regular. This is good, not just for the "asshats" as you dehumanized them, but for all of us, for the whole damn country, including you.

[CGQuarterly]

I fully support a raise in the minimum wage.  I just think that we are ALL underpaid, based on average worker pay vs. cost of living through the years.  This is not only a problem for the lower class.  My wife and I are both college-educated and have jobs commensurate with that level of education.  Our household income is (barely) into the 6-figures, we have no kids, and we have to really watch our finances in order to pay all of the bills and sock a responsible amount of money away for retirement.  Yes, these are "white-people problems" but we fucking went to college for a reason.  Not saying I should be rolling in dough, but fuck.

As far as the whole "my parents did it..." thing, I am not saying that the working poor need to "suck it up" or anything, but SOME PEOPLE need to accept the fact that they are in the lower economic class, and maybe can't afford to take their kids to fucking Disneyland for a week when they can't afford it, or don't need a big screen TV as much as they need to take that money and sock it away in a rainy-day fund or retirement account.  I say this because I am sitting here in the ostensibly more financially flush situation, hemming and hawing over tiny purchases because I do not want to waste money, while I watch first-hand as other people that I know practically taking money out to the back yard and burning it.

And with apologies to proponents of the other side of the argument in this thread, fuck most of the upper class, as well.  Manufacturing jobs don't get shipped overseas because corporations are going to go out of business if they keep the jobs here.  They ship the jobs overseas to maximize profits.  Because if they don't, the shareholders will kick that board of directors out and get someone in there who will, because their only concern is with the value of their shares, and their dividend checks.  And a LOT of these people fighting over minimum wage jobs are folks that used to have decent jobs working in factories.  The US has lost literally MILLIONS of manufacturing jobs to China.  The workers don't win, the consumers don't really win because although it keeps costs low, quality goes down and as a whole, we all have less buying power.  The only winners are the shareholders.  Look at how much PROFIT (net, not gross) companies like Wal-Mart, Apple, etc. make.  They can EASILY afford to pay the workers more.  But doing so lowers profit-per-share.  Apple is literally sitting on an obscene pile of cash.

[BlueBMW]

I totally agree that most people are underpaid.  I find it frustrating when people say "well a burger flipper doesn't deserve $15 an hour"   I guess my opinion is that if a person works full time they should make a living wage.  If you cannot afford to pay an employee a viable wage then you cannot afford to hire that person.  If your business can only stay afloat by paying employees terrible wages then you shouldn't be operating that business in this country.  Companies like Walmart make big profits and keep prices low by paying terrible wages to employees.  Would a minimum wage hike hurt Walmart?  Probably yes, but is Walmart's business model viable?  Only if it is allowed to continue to pay awful wages.

I guess the bottom line is this.  The trend has been stagnant wages and rising costs.  Meaning that the spending power of people near the bottom has been eroding for years.  Without any change what will happen?  Eventually people who are working as hard as they can in the best job they are able to do will not be able to honestly make enough money to feed themselves or their family.  What will happen when a parent can no longer feed their child?  They will find a way.  If that means crime or worse then it will happen.  I can honestly say I think eventually there would be an "unpleasant" revolution of the working (peasant) class and the wealthy would do well to avoid such a thing ever coming to pass.

Now one thing I always hear (usually from older wealthy people) is that young people just need to "work harder" or "get an education"  I can personally say I have worked my ass off for my entire adult life.  Hard work never awarded me anything in any of the fields I have worked in.  In the machinist job I did around age 21 I worked 70 to 80 hours a week.  All that job succeeded in doing was stealing 3 years of my young adult life and burning me out.  It didn't lead to anything better, it just lead to health problems and frustration. 

When I worked on BMWs as a mechanic for about 9 years total I saw a terrible trend.  When I looked around me the bulk of the people I worked with were 20 and 30 somethings.  There were very few technicians in their 40s or 50s.  I saw on numerous occasions where a senior technician with 20+ years experience was terminated for no reasonable reason and replaced by another young kid.  Why did they do it?  The old guy was worn out and couldn't produce like the young kids could and was making twice as much money.  So the obvious business decision was to fire the old guy and hire a young guy for half the cost.  That was my fate.  The company would use me until my body couldn't keep up or until my pay got too high and then fire me.  Thanks to at will employment laws they could fire me for no reason at all.  That's why I left that field.  I knew the end game outcome and what would I do at age 42 when my only skill was working on cars and that skill required a strong body to perform effectively?  I'd be sunk at that point.

So now here I am working full time in a manufacturing job at night while I'm going to school during the day.  Full time school + full time work and living in a rented room in a friends basement.  Even doing all this I will still end up with $25000 in student loans for an engineering degree in a few years.  Our parents generation never had to deal with all this.  They could afford a years tuition and expenses with the money made from a low skill summer job.  I have no choice but to work full time while attending school full time and I still have to take loans.

Anyways, the bottom line is I think regular working Americans are getting fed up with a system that only serves the wealthy.  Reagan's trickle down economics does NOT work.  I hasn't worked and it never will.  It only works for those at the top.  We live in the wealthiest nation in the world yet our regular people dont enjoy one bit of that wealth.  Something has got to give.  Conservatives are trying to get people to believe the reason for low wages and bad jobs are things like regulations or illegal immigrants.  The real reason is the greed at the top. 

Either we effect some changes soon or we will eventually have an unpleasant revolution of some sort that will correct things.  Kind of like climate change.  We can take unpleasant but doable steps now to correct the imbalance in our environment, or we can do nothing and let nature correct itself in the future.  I can guarantee it wont be fun if we wait for the planet to fix itself.  Its highly likely that mankind wouldn't survive such a correction.

TLDR:
Hard work doesn't pay off anymore.  The rich have all the country's wealth.  Trickle down economics don't work.  Correct the imbalance now or it will suck later.  Vote for Bernie Sanders

[esteban]

I enjoyed reading everyone's posts.

[Opethian]

minimum wage means "I would pay you less for what you do but it is against the law" this isn't an incentive to get comfy...

[Psycho Nulltard]

[Nazi NecroPhile]

No one is saying raise a family of four. But in many places, minimum wage isn't sufficient to raise a family of one.

And by "many places" you mean "most expensive city in the US".  Brilliant.  If only I'd already said you're fucked there.... oh, that's right, I did.

Even so, if you and your wife worked a combined 100 hours per week, it would indeed be a living wage:

after tax pay       $37,000
utilities                 -1,200 ($100 per month)
food                     -4,800 ($400 per month)
subway                 -1,430
clothes                 -1,200 ($100 per month)
rainy day              -7,020 (15% gross pay)
rent                    -16,800 ($1400 per month)
                            $4550

That's a decent sum leftover to pay incidentals, even using higher numbers than your bare bones amounts.  There's still no getting around being SOL if you're single and want to live alone, though; the rent is too damn high!   

Wages have been stagnant for decades.

You mean the buying power is stagnant.  If the average wage in '72 bought $17.88 worth of goods in 2009 dollars and the average in '09 is $18.63, then in what way were they paid better?  Those are inflation adjusted numbers; they weren't actually taking home $17.88 an hour on average.

Keeping minimum wage low will literally cause massive economic damages after suppressing the purchasing power of millions of Americans. Plus, a hike in minimum wage means a hike in everyone else's salaries, too. It should be regular. This is good, not just for the "asshats" as you dehumanized them, but for all of us, for the whole damn country, including you.

I don't know what axe you have to grind, but please re-read what I wrote and stop twisting my words.  It's abundantly clear that I believe minimum wage should be indexed to inflation, and the asshat label was not applied to minimum wage earners in general.


TL;DR - vote for Colonel Sanders

[Opethian]

If you make minimum wage and you are scraping by then you need to take a look at your priorities...NOT YOUR FUCKING GOVERNMENT

[MotherGunner]

Anyone read this article?

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/aug/1/dan-price-seattle-ceo-who-set-company-minimum-wage/

[Nazi NecroPhile]

Yep, because the only choices are being just this side of homeless and living in a $100k a month penthouse.  Only an asshole would stoop to eating economical home cooked meals (something like hamburger helper), car pooling, having a roommate, or giving up HBO/Cinemax/etc.  No new iPhone every six months?  Is this communist russia?!?

[BigusSchmuck]

Anyone read this article?

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/aug/1/dan-price-seattle-ceo-who-set-company-minimum-wage/

Yeah its blasted all over the radio and news in these parts. What puzzles me are why don't these people use Pell Grants to go to school? Don't they know that they can practically go to community college for free? A 2 year degree landed me my first IT job at $17 an hour. I think the mind set should be a minimum wage job is just a stepping block, not a lifetime career choice. Apparently not everyone got that memo.

[BlueBMW]

Ha Pell Grants....  I have not once been offered a Pell Grant.  Affording and going to college just isnt as easy as everyone seems to think.  Unless you grew up in a rich family it is nearly impossible to pay for college without getting massive loans now.  Our parents generation did just fine, but not us.

[BigusSchmuck]

Ha Pell Grants....  I have not once been offered a Pell Grant.  Affording and going to college just isnt as easy as everyone seems to think.  Unless you grew up in a rich family it is nearly impossible to pay for college without getting massive loans now.  Our parents generation did just fine, but not us.

The thing is you need to take the time to fill the paperwork out, you don't just get it awarded for you. Unless it has changed since I went back to school (2008) that's how I managed to pay for college. I still had to take loans out for the cost of those books for my first year, but my 2nd year since I made even less than the previous gave me enough to cover the costs of books and then a little bit extra to live off. My 2nd year I also qualified for financial aid so that helped even more. I still had to work full time (line cook ugh), but we did manage to make ends meet.

[ToyMachine78]

I definitely see why Esteban greets everyone with Comrade now.

[ToyMachine78]

No one is saying raise a family of four. But in many places, minimum wage isn't sufficient to raise a family of one.

And by "many places" you mean "most expensive city in the US".  Brilliant.  If only I'd already said you're fucked there.... oh, that's right, I did.

Even so, if you and your wife worked a combined 100 hours per week, it would indeed be a living wage:

after tax pay       $37,000
utilities                 -1,200 ($100 per month)
food                     -4,800 ($400 per month)
subway                 -1,430
clothes                 -1,200 ($100 per month)
rainy day              -7,020 (15% gross pay)
rent                    -16,800 ($1400 per month)
                            $4550

That's a decent sum leftover to pay incidentals, even using higher numbers than your bare bones amounts.  There's still no getting around being SOL if you're single and want to live alone, though; the rent is too damn high!   

Wages have been stagnant for decades.

You mean the buying power is stagnant.  If the average wage in '72 bought $17.88 worth of goods in 2009 dollars and the average in '09 is $18.63, then in what way were they paid better?  Those are inflation adjusted numbers; they weren't actually taking home $17.88 an hour on average.

Keeping minimum wage low will literally cause massive economic damages after suppressing the purchasing power of millions of Americans. Plus, a hike in minimum wage means a hike in everyone else's salaries, too. It should be regular. This is good, not just for the "asshats" as you dehumanized them, but for all of us, for the whole damn country, including you.

I don't know what axe you have to grind, but please re-read what I wrote and stop twisting my words.  It's abundantly clear that I believe minimum wage should be indexed to inflation, and the asshat label was not applied to minimum wage earners in general.


TL;DR - vote for Colonel Sanders

I'm Toymachine78 and I approve this message

[o.pwuaioc]

So you think everyone should either get a wife or find a reliable roommate? Because both of those are so easy, right? 

It's a sad day for the land of liberty when people think marriage should be about affording life in America.
I won't even go into the unlikelihood of stable 100 hour work weeks for a married couple in this economy, because Nulltard already made that point. But to have the fantasy that this is perfectly doable for all minimum wage workers is god-damned pitiful.

[bob]

o.puc...are you familiar with Ed Tufte?

[BlueBMW]

The thing is you need to take the time to fill the paperwork out, you don't just get it awarded for you. Unless it has changed since I went back to school (2008) that's how I managed to pay for college. I still had to take loans out for the cost of those books for my first year, but my 2nd year since I made even less than the previous gave me enough to cover the costs of books and then a little bit extra to live off. My 2nd year I also qualified for financial aid so that helped even more. I still had to work full time (line cook ugh), but we did manage to make ends meet.

I did fill out all the necessary paperwork.  Due to cuts in funding etc the threshold for qualifying for pell grants etc has dropped immensely.  I maybe $35k a year right now and am expected to be able to pay $15k a year towards school.  I do not qualify for pell grants and I never have.

[BigusSchmuck]

The thing is you need to take the time to fill the paperwork out, you don't just get it awarded for you. Unless it has changed since I went back to school (2008) that's how I managed to pay for college. I still had to take loans out for the cost of those books for my first year, but my 2nd year since I made even less than the previous gave me enough to cover the costs of books and then a little bit extra to live off. My 2nd year I also qualified for financial aid so that helped even more. I still had to work full time (line cook ugh), but we did manage to make ends meet.

I did fill out all the necessary paperwork.  Due to cuts in funding etc the threshold for qualifying for pell grants etc has dropped immensely.  I maybe $35k a year right now and am expected to be able to pay $15k a year towards school.  I do not qualify for pell grants and I never have.

I made probably half that when I applied for it. FAFSA on the other hand, anyone should be able to get it at least in theory. https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/fafsa I made the point to fill it out as soon as I was done with my taxes for that year.

[BlueBMW]

That's what you have to do is fill out the FAFSA.  I do every year but all I am ever offered is loans.  I even straight up asked the financial aid department if I would be better off just quitting my job since it would make school more affordable.  They kind of looked at me funny and couldn't articulate an answer.

At half my income you probably would get some grants though.  Trouble is, where I live you pretty much have to make $45k+ if you want to make it on your own.

[BigusSchmuck]

That's what you have to do is fill out the FAFSA.  I do every year but all I am ever offered is loans.  I even straight up asked the financial aid department if I would be better off just quitting my job since it would make school more affordable.  They kind of looked at me funny and couldn't articulate an answer.

At half my income you probably would get some grants though.  Trouble is, where I live you pretty much have to make $45k+ if you want to make it on your own.

That's terrible, I guess I'm really out of touch on how financial aid is setup anymore. Basically you either have to have a roommate or a girl friend in order to get qualified (assuming you make under the threshold) and even if you do you'll be stuck having to take out a loan at some point just to get a degree that may or may not land you a job unless you are going for a trade and even then nothing is guaranteed. I had to basically apply for work everyday of the week until finally I landed my first professional IT job (took about 6 months to get it). Unfortunately even 5 years after I have graduated, I'm still paying on my student loans.. But at least now I'm making a decent wage (42k in these parts is like gold) and have plenty mobility to move up in my trade.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

So you think everyone should either get a wife or find a reliable roommate? Because both of those are so easy, right? 

What makes you think that life should be easy, especially for those on the very bottom rung?  Like I've said more than once already, minimum wage earners are screwed in places like New York; having some sort or roommate is probably your only chance anywhere with such extreme costs of living. 

It's a sad day for the land of liberty when people think marriage should be about affording life in America.

I got news for you: it's not a new concept.  People have been getting married (or staying married) primarily for financial reasons since forever.  Traditionally it's been marriage, roommates, or living with extended family for most people; being able to live alone comfortably is relatively new.

I won't even go into the unlikelihood of stable 100 hour work weeks for a married couple in this economy, because null already made that point. But to have the fantasy that this is perfectly doable for all minimum wage workers is god-damned pitiful.

What's pitiful is that some people think that life should be easy no matter how uneducated, unskilled, stupid, or lazy you may be.