Playstation 1 RPG games

[technozombie]

I've never been more disappointed with a sequel in my life than with FFTA.

*coughs* Chrono Cross

Like I was saying earlier, as a sequel CC sucked but as a standalone game it was great. I played it when I was in highschool so my opinion might be different if I had been older, but the sound, graphics, and battle system were all top notch and the story involving multiple dimensions was cool.

[NightWolve]

I didn't mean to imply it was a great game. I bought the game right after its release and loved it. I still do. I was just saying that because of the name more people have played than would have played games such as Tactics Ogre ( I've yet to play either Ogre game).

I loved it and it's probably the only strategy type RPG I ever bought and beat (because of the FF label at the time of course). Might have a PS2 game that fits that genre (Kessen), but I was never a real fan of it. I wanted to try Tactics Ogre some time due to word of mouth, but never got around to it.

I thought I had a dejavu about this thread, we had another one BTW that worked out as a somewhat general PS1 RPGs by galam. For reference:

https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=16776.0

So my favorites list would be like:

Xenogears - This is all kinds of awesome, my #1 RPG for many years (disc 2 sadly rushes the game)
Final Fantasy 7
Final Fantasy 8 - It wasn't like 7, but f--k, I liked it.
Final Fantasy Tactics - As mentioned before.
Legend of Legaia - A nice RPG alternative from what I was used to.
Lunar 2: Eternal Blue Complete - Working Designs greatness!
Parasite Eve
Alundra

Now I own the following also:

Chrono Cross
Final Fantasy 9
Vagrant Story
Threads of Fate
Parasite Eve 2
Legend of Mana
Dragon Warrior VII
Alundra 2
Vandal Hearts

BUT, they're all stuck in backlog hell till whenever, so I can't say if I like 'em or not. At first glance, I'm not looking forward to Legend of Mana, but I hear great things on Vagrant Story so that might be one to knock off the list some time first in my PS1 backlog.

[seieienbu]

I've never been more disappointed with a sequel in my life than with FFTA.

*coughs* Chrono Cross

Like I was saying earlier, as a sequel CC sucked but as a standalone game it was great. I played it when I was in highschool so my opinion might be different if I had been older, but the sound, graphics, and battle system were all top notch and the story involving multiple dimensions was cool.

I about halfway agree with you.  Chrono Cross certainly disappointed me when I bought it due to my expectations (I believe the comparison to Starwars Episode 1 is pretty apt).  However, as a standalone game?  It looked good for PS1 using the FF style prerendered backgrounds and 3d characters on top, it had a phenomenal soundtrack, and it had an overall interesting world that I liked exploring.  The final third or so of the game, however, the plot went to hell and I was pretty angry when I learned that they just killed most of the Chrono Trigger cast off screen.  All that being said, CC in a vacuum is worth playing.  I personally disliked the combat engine but it was new and though it Did remind me a bit of Xenogears, was fairly unique.

As a sequel to Chrono Trigger it fails utterly.

Thinking about Chrono Cross reminds me of another game I bought that same Summer.  Legend of Mana is halfway on my disappointing games list.  Imo, no other 32 bit game looks remotely as good as Legend of Mana.  The backgrounds are absolutely gorgeous hand painted watercolor paintings and the sprite animations (though not as good as the backgrounds) are pretty good too.  I loved the soundtrack as well; I bought it on CD many years ago.  The storyline for the game is...interesting?  Rather than having a singular storyline the game has a ton of quests which have their own backstory and immerse you into the world.  There were several recurring characters and some plotlines would have multiple chapters. 

So the problems I had with the game?  Mainly the combat.  Secret of Mana and Final Fantasy Adventure both gave you much more freedom to fight or ignore enemies.  In Legend of Mana you are forced to fight enemies until they're dead before being allowed to move on.  To make matters worse, you aren't allowed to move or attack vertically but instead the game plays more similar to Final Fight or other brawlers allowing you to move up and down the background plane while only attacking left or right only to then have an experience/money gain screen further interrupting the flow of this "action RPG."

All that being said, if you've not played Chrono Cross or Legend of Mana I think they both have enough good points to be recommended on their own merits even if both games are flawed and not the sequels that my younger self wanted.

[shawnji]

BUT, they're all stuck in backlog hell till whenever, so I can't say if I like 'em or not. At first glance, I'm not looking forward to Legend of Mana, but I hear great things on Vagrant Story so that might be one to knock off the list some time first in my PS1 backlog.

Do it, dude!

I love to talk about how this game is the best thing since sliced bread, but I will say that it does require a certain mind-set going in.  If you need a whole lot of color, you may find the overall tone a little dry going in.  There are a few different locales, but the majority of Lea Monde is varying shades of gray or brown.  The game also doesn't hold your hand with tutorials, so if you want to learn about weapon affinities and the very complex crafting system, you'll need to spend a lot of time in the in-game help menu or with a walkthrough.  I don't think it's that bad, but a lot of people get bogged down in it.

Anyway, if you can get past that, you'll find one of the most excellently crafted stories in gaming, and some very rewarding gameplay to boot.

...

I'm going to make my (unpopular) opinion known on Chrono Cross:  I think it's even better than Trigger in many ways.  Trigger has the better cast overall, but Cross has better music, a better combat system with more depth, and some very unique twists and turns in the plot.  The leveling system is also much better, with grinding all but made unnecessary.  Yeah, the cast of characters is largely boring outside of Kid, Lynx, and Harle; but almost everything else surrounding them is really fantastic.  I personally feel it gets WAY too much hate for almost no reason, and I have never understood it.  Going back and playing Chrono Trigger now, I find that most of the good I can say about it involves the story and characters, but little about the mechanics.  Time travel is fascinating, yes; but I find the concept of alternate dimensions even MORE interesting and a very natural progression for the series to take.  I just replayed both this and Trigger (yes, on my SNES; not the abysmal PS1 port) about a year ago, and my opinion has only been solidified even more.  Absolutely incredible game.

Now, Legend of Mana, on the other hand...  Aw, I suppose it's not that bad, but it certainly could have done with a few improvements.  I had fun with it, but every time I try to play it again I just get completely bored and lose interest.

[technozombie]

I loved Legend of Mana also. The graphics hold up much better than most PSX games and the music is great. The battle does have its quirks but doesn't take away from the game much. The thing I hate most about the battles is the stupid npc AI, mainly the fact they never grab XP even when you want them to. The story(stories really) are not bad its just that their are multiple unfocussed stories and if you were expecting a single one you would be disappointed. Their is all kind of crap to do on the side. Growing plants,crafting, raising pets, and building golems. It also has a new game plus mode with the option for harder difficulty.

Edit: another thing about the story is that it's oftentimes light hearted even funny and seldom emo, woah is me, crap

[SamIAm]

Chrono Trigger v. Chrono Cross.

Regardless of whether it's best to appreciate them as one series, I think that Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross have one really interesting point of contrast between them. It's not exactly their stories; it's more their storytelling. While Trigger nailed its storytelling better than just about any video game I've ever played, I also believe that Cross bombed it just as spectacularly. Although Cross left me sour after I first finished it, these days I enjoy thinking about both games as examples of what to do and what not to do.

I've studied, critiqued, and feebly attempted to write short stories and short film scripts myself, and one thing that's surprised me is that pretty much any story, even the most seemingly mundane, can be interesting for an audience. It's all simply a matter of how you tell it. With this in mind, one of the corner-stone rules of storytelling in general is the idea of "Show, Don't Tell". This can be applied in many different ways, but it basically means that your audience should experience all of the most important aspects of a story rather than be dryly informed about them along the way.

Obviously, this means that we should usually see critical dramatic scenes unfold rather than be told about them afterward, ie we should see the car chase, not come in at the end to one character saying "Boy! That was one exciting car chase we just had!". Even when you've got a scene that's basically just dialogue, though, you really want the dialogue to be almost like a by-product of the situation rather than be its leading force. For example, if you want to tell the audience that the two people in your scene are old friends, it's a bad idea to have one turn to the other and say "Boy! We sure have been friends for a long time, haven't we?". Instead, you want them talk to each other like old friends do, and thereby imply that information to us. No matter the scope or the specific situation, showing things properly makes people connect emotionally with your story and, if you're lucky, feel a stake of personal involvement.

Looking at Chrono Trigger, tell me if you can think of any other story-centric RPG where you could actually hack and erase every last dialogue box, have somebody play it with a bare-bones walkthrough, and then see that person coming out with an understanding of a good 80% of the story. As a matter of fact, there are only a few points that really even require dialogue to tell us where to go at all. With a little bit of re-staging of events silent-film style, a newbie could play the game with zero dialogue and no walkthrough and still understand (almost) everything. This is a fairly complex story to understand, too.

Chrono Trigger's story-arc is elegant, the opening and closing were both very neat and tidy, and most importantly, the player participates in nearly every significant event in the entire storyline. In fact, Trigger goes into genius territory by using the time-travel gimmick to let us take part in all of the back story. There's almost nothing in the entire plot that we aren't actively involved in ourselves. In that way, you can say we really get "shown" everything important to the game's story.

Now let's talk about Chrono Cross. It definitely has nice music, graphics and atmosphere, and the early premise is actually pretty good. I personally loved the funky tropical island setting. I also loved the parallel worlds, and that you fall into a dimension where you've been dead for 14 years to meet up with a sexy thief-girl and break into a corrupt general's mansion. After that, though, it all goes downhill fast. That good beginning aside, everything up until the last third of the game feels somewhat meaningless. Then, when the time finally comes to discover what's really important in the story, we basically stand around and listen to people talk at length about stuff that happened in other places and other times. In other words, we're "told" just about everything. Nothing illustrates this better than that whole bit before the final boss when the game has to halt and basically narrate a dozen key plot details just to keep the story from completely falling apart.

Honestly, that last bit in particular is a very amateur mistake. Also, I can't think of any other game that would make less sense if you erased all the dialogue. Not even Xenogears.

At least one school of thought says that a plot's quality is primarily measured by how much the audience gets emotionally involved in it. It's one thing to make a story that isn't easily understood right when it's over and makes people think for a while to really "get it", which I think is what they tried to do, but Chrono Cross simply didn't have much good stuff in what you actually play. Even the core cast didn't go through any interesting character arcs. Yeah, maybe the storytelling wouldn't have been so bad if we at least got to enjoy a fun cast and a string of endearing situations.

Perhaps someday I'll re-play Cross someday and see if I can enjoy it on its atmosphere alone. Seiken Densetsu 3 is one of my all time favorite games, and it has almost nothing to do with its story. For now, though, there's just too much other stuff to play.

This review contains more spoilers, but I think it also sums up the problem with Chrono Cross very well.

[NightWolve]

Great review Sam! I looked at your link also, but after 2 paragraphs, had to stop since I still didn't get around to the game and given the fair warnings on spoilers. I could see I was learning too much in continuing.

Chrono Trigger was a Christmas gift to me from my friend's mother because I had done construction work for their house. Demolished plaster/lath walls, put insulation, new drywall over it, installed a new 120 VAC wall outlet with new 20 Amp wiring for air-conditioner dedication, installed ceiling fans for them, etc. Stuff like that.

Anyway, it was a $79.99 game on release, so I was really appreciative, and with getting it for Christmas break, I actually used up most of my 2 weeks playing it! I will never give up that cart! Suffice to say, it is one of the SNES' RPG masterpieces, and I enjoyed every moment for the privilege of getting to play it. I've never been good at reviews, I don't have the good retention memory that others have that allows for them to take you through the game years after having played it, but if you've never played it and you love RPGs, you're seriously missing out!!

[Miracle_Warrior]

Bernie, may not be an RPG, but have you play Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain yet?  It's an excellent game (slow loading times though), with a really engaging story.

[Mathius]

Chrono Trigger v. Chrono Cross.

Regardless of whether it's best to appreciate them as one series, I think that Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross have one really interesting point of contrast between them. It's not exactly their stories; it's more their storytelling. While Trigger nailed its storytelling better than just about any video game I've ever played, I also believe that Cross bombed it just as spectacularly. Although Cross left me sour after I first finished it, these days I enjoy thinking about both games as examples of what to do and what not to do.

I've studied, critiqued, and feebly attempted to write short stories and short film scripts myself, and one thing that's surprised me is that pretty much any story, even the most seemingly mundane, can be interesting for an audience. It's all simply a matter of how you tell it. With this in mind, one of the corner-stone rules of storytelling in general is the idea of "Show, Don't Tell". This can be applied in many different ways, but it basically means that your audience should experience all of the most important aspects of a story rather than be dryly informed about them along the way.

Obviously, this means that we should usually see critical dramatic scenes unfold rather than be told about them afterward, ie we should see the car chase, not come in at the end to one character saying "Boy! That was one exciting car chase we just had!". Even when you've got a scene that's basically just dialogue, though, you really want the dialogue to be almost like a by-product of the situation rather than be its leading force. For example, if you want to tell the audience that the two people in your scene are old friends, it's a bad idea to have one turn to the other and say "Boy! We sure have been friends for a long time, haven't we?". Instead, you want them talk to each other like old friends do, and thereby imply that information to us. No matter the scope or the specific situation, showing things properly makes people connect emotionally with your story and, if you're lucky, feel a stake of personal involvement.

Looking at Chrono Trigger, tell me if you can think of any other story-centric RPG where you could actually hack and erase every last dialogue box, have somebody play it with a bare-bones walkthrough, and then see that person coming out with an understanding of a good 80% of the story. As a matter of fact, there are only a few points that really even require dialogue to tell us where to go at all. With a little bit of re-staging of events silent-film style, a newbie could play the game with zero dialogue and no walkthrough and still understand (almost) everything. This is a fairly complex story to understand, too.

Chrono Trigger's story-arc is elegant, the opening and closing were both very neat and tidy, and most importantly, the player participates in nearly every significant event in the entire storyline. In fact, Trigger goes into genius territory by using the time-travel gimmick to let us take part in all of the back story. There's almost nothing in the entire plot that we aren't actively involved in ourselves. In that way, you can say we really get "shown" everything important to the game's story.

Now let's talk about Chrono Cross. It definitely has nice music, graphics and atmosphere, and the early premise is actually pretty good. I personally loved the funky tropical island setting. I also loved the parallel worlds, and that you fall into a dimension where you've been dead for 14 years to meet up with a sexy thief-girl and break into a corrupt general's mansion. After that, though, it all goes downhill fast. That good beginning aside, everything up until the last third of the game feels somewhat meaningless. Then, when the time finally comes to discover what's really important in the story, we basically stand around and listen to people talk at length about stuff that happened in other places and other times. In other words, we're "told" just about everything. Nothing illustrates this better than that whole bit before the final boss when the game has to halt and basically narrate a dozen key plot details just to keep the story from completely falling apart.

Honestly, that last bit in particular is a very amateur mistake. Also, I can't think of any other game that would make less sense if you erased all the dialogue. Not even Xenogears.

At least one school of thought says that a plot's quality is primarily measured by how much the audience gets emotionally involved in it. It's one thing to make a story that isn't easily understood right when it's over and makes people think for a while to really "get it", which I think is what they tried to do, but Chrono Cross simply didn't have much good stuff in what you actually play. Even the core cast didn't go through any interesting character arcs. Yeah, maybe the storytelling wouldn't have been so bad if we at least got to enjoy a fun cast and a string of endearing situations.

Perhaps someday I'll re-play Cross someday and see if I can enjoy it on its atmosphere alone. Seiken Densetsu 3 is one of my all time favorite games, and it has almost nothing to do with its story. For now, though, there's just too much other stuff to play.

This review contains more spoilers, but I think it also sums up the problem with Chrono Cross very well.

Could you please go back in time and oversee the writing for the Star Wars prequels? Thanks!

[DragonmasterDan]

Bernie, may not be an RPG, but have you play Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain yet?  It's an excellent game (slow loading times though), with a really engaging story. 

Heh, I have vivid memories renting and playing through it in a real maybe 18 years ago. It's decent but excellent is a bit of a stretch. I was very surprised when the series morphed into Soul Reaver.

[Bernie]

I have the Kain series!  Awesome stuff!


Sent from my iPhone using your mama

[shawnji]

While I don't intend to argue, and Sam makes several good points, I would encourage everyone to play the game for themselves and make up their own minds.  I personally think much of your enjoyment will depend on how much you enjoy RPG battle systems, and how much emphasis you put on the plot.  I'll leave a review here that I think takes a very even-handed approach and probably describes my thoughts on the game better than I can:

EDIT:

Kain is also pretty great, although I'll admit that I'm kind of with DragonmasterDan in the sense that Soul Reaver was a huge improvement over the first game, despite being wildly different.  I still like the first game, but those load times are miserable, and I can't see anyone tolerating them in this day and age.  The gameplay is also very basic.  It's definitely the writing that sold it.  I say skip it and go for Soul Reaver (on the Dreamcast if you can).

[Mathius]

With Legacy of Kain I found that playing it in a PS2 with the drive speed set to fast greatly improves the loading times.

*The More You Know

[shawnji]

With Legacy of Kain I found that playing it in a PS2 with the drive speed set to fast greatly improves the loading times.

*The More You Know

Hmm... I may have to try that.  I haven't booted up a PS1 game in my PS2 in ages, actually.  Now I just have to rife through boxes to find my cooy of Blood Omen!  XD

[Mathius]

With Legacy of Kain I found that playing it in a PS2 with the drive speed set to fast greatly improves the loading times.

*The More You Know

Hmm... I may have to try that.  I haven't booted up a PS1 game in my PS2 in ages, actually.  Now I just have to rife through boxes to find my cooy of Blood Omen!  XD

Let me know how it goes so that I can know that I'm not imagining it.

[ParanoiaDragon]

Ive often wondered with Chrono Cross, if the giant cast of characters that could join you, but inspired by the Suikoden games.  IIRC, the first 2 Suikoden games had come out already, or atleast the first one had.  I've also wondered what happened with that alleged sequel Chrono Break, & how far along...if at all, it ever got.

Legend of Mana, I want to like this game, as I love the prequals, but I don't like the open ended set up.  The gfx & music are gorgeous, I too picked up the soundtrack.  I did enjoy some of the later Mana's, name Sword of Mana(despite it's flaws, it was fun) & Children of Mana turned out ok, even though it doesn't follow the typical Mana set up.  I never did pick up Heroes of Mana, since I'm not big on SRPG's, & now it's expensive last I checked.  I beat Dawn of Mana, but, that was with cheats, & even that was a chore.  That game sux!  I'm kind of hoping the latest Mana on Vita gets a translation, since it's supposed to be good(thought not great).  There is a new Final Fantasy Adventure that was announced to some degree or another, though I'm still not sure why it's being called that, since that's the US name.

Vagrant Story, never could get into it.  Heard incredible things about it, but just couldn't do it.  I do think the lack of color is one of the reasons, though I don't think it was the only one.

[seieienbu]

I have fond memories of playing Legacy of Kain back in highschool with a bunch of friends.  I was mis-hearing "Vae Victis" and thinking I heard "Praise Victor."  So I asked who the hell this Victor guy was we were supposed to be praising and made a running gag between my friends and I of shouting "Praise Victor!" whenever we accomplished some minor stupid task.

Praise Victor indeed.

[xcrement5x]

I definitely think Square was trying to borrow from a lot of other successful games when they made Chrono Cross. Personally, I think it just made the game overly busy and less memorable.

[DragonmasterDan]

I definitely think Square was trying to borrow from a lot of other successful games when they made Chrono Cross. Personally, I think it just made the game overly busy and less memorable.

I think it was a lower budget cash-in title that was marketed as a sequel to a triple A artistic title. And that's the issue. It's not that Chrono Cross is in and of itself a terrible game, there are certainly much worse. But as a sequel to Chrono Trigger it has practically nothing to do with the original.

[Mathius]

I have fond memories of playing Legacy of Kain back in highschool with a bunch of friends.  I was mis-hearing "Vae Victis" and thinking I heard "Praise Victor."  So I asked who the hell this Victor guy was we were supposed to be praising and made a running gag between my friends and I of shouting "Praise Victor!" whenever we accomplished some minor stupid task.

Praise Victor indeed.

Heh I thought the same thing back then. My friends and I had the same joke lol

[technozombie]

While I don't intend to argue, and Sam makes several good points, I would encourage everyone to play the game for themselves and make up their own minds.  I personally think much of your enjoyment will depend on how much you enjoy RPG battle systems, and how much emphasis you put on the plot.  I'll leave a review here that I think takes a very even-handed approach and probably describes my thoughts on the game better than I can:

Sam makes a good assessment although I don't really agree with it. Anyways, I haven't played that game since it released. I had pre-ordered it so i know I got it release day. That was in November of 1999 which means I was 18 for 2 months. I really enjoyed the game at the time but I feel like my my assessment now would be different than in 1999 @ 18 yrs old. That really makes me want to go back and play it just to see if I feel differently.

[in99flames]

It probably has been said....but castlevania symphone of the night......i dont need to say anymore.