Net Neutrality

[BigusSchmuck]

Yeah I'm going there. I'm curious to why every day people are against this. Or maybe they don't understand how the internet works...

[crazydean]

I've yet to see anyone who is against it.

[Psycho Punch]

I've yet to see anyone who is against it.

[turboswimbz]

Yeah, I'm going there. I'm curious to why everyday people are against this? Perhaps they don't understand how the internet works?

The problem is people don't understand Capitalism, we have created a situation here int he US as follows in the disguise of Capitalism.   

A) Corporations largely run the US - Support DC politicians campaigns ect.
B) Corporations lobby and create propaganda (after candidate elected)
C) People follow Propaganda
D) Our freedoms are limited by said corporations after they have huddled their sheep together.
 
Let's be Honest Comcast, ATT, Verizon, Time Warner don't want Net Neutrality, and are going to keep making it a thing and winning over more and more until one day there isn't an outrage and laws gets passed allowing them to profit greatly from the average public.  They hope that the public pays more attention to taxes or whatever other hot button turd topic the extreme left and right are arguing about. (conveniently the extreme candidates these corporations are funding the campaigns of)

[BigusSchmuck]

Then we got guys like this who seem to think no regulation is needed. https://fee.org/articles/goodbye-net-neutrality-hello-competition/
I don't see how this will create more competition if you have only one major ISP in the area. If that major ISP owns the backbone (which is sadly the case out here) then they will make money regardless.

[turboswimbz]

Yea Bingus, exactly my point.

Net Neutrality isn't the issue. 

It's treating these companies as "Public Utilities" which doesn't allow for the so-called startups in this article.  Where does he think competitive prices are going to come in?  I don't see it.  The cost of Amazon and Netflix and eBay where broadband is needed will just be passed onto the consumer. 

Also, his analogy of shipping is not correct.  In fact, the shipping industry is heavily regulated.  As the trucking industry can in fact control supply and demand of products. 

Side Note: I'm also fairly sure that we should be more worried about the way we gave powers to water utilities than ISPs.  Let's see people support these practices when it's water that beings extorted. This seriously worries me.  Look no further than Puerto Rico and the issues going on with the utility companies there to see where this could go. I'm all for deregulation, but power left unchecked is never a good thing.

Call me Socialist for it, but there are drawbacks to a semi-free capitalist market. Ones we need to seriously try to figure out, as it is clear that the US is no longer the leading voice in the world and we are seriously split in ways we haven't been in quite a few decades. 

[BigusSchmuck]

And then this dingus:
https://www.facebook.com/Reason.Magazine/videos/10154722841689117/
Seriously, what kind of butt crack smoke are these guys smoking?

[seieienbu]

Yeah, I've never met anyone who's against net neutrality.  Meanwhile, it's been well documented that psuedo identity stealing bots are posting to the FCC that they are in favor of removing it.  ...I swear I'm not wearing a tin-foil hat.

[turboswimbz]

And then this dingus:
https://www.facebook.com/Reason.Magazine/videos/10154722841689117/
Seriously, what kind of butt crack smoke are these guys smoking?

His arguments are at least better.  And I understand such rules were not in place before.  but there isn't going to be some sort of magic startup cropping around... that's happened exactly . . . Zero times. And the telecom industry has been regulated as public utilities for 100's of years so yeah . . .

In an ideal world yeah no big issue, competition and you pay for speeds you want.  the problem is that websites that require higher resources could, in fact, essentially band from certain users.  what will the school children do without the misinformation of wikipedia?????

[Groover]

I hate that this keeps coming up. I wish it wouldn't be so easy to be brought up so often. I am worried this time we are screwed. I have called and emailed my representatives letting them know I don't want them to remove any protections for Net Neutrality. Sadly we let the foxes in the hen house.

[BigusSchmuck]

This brings up a good point too..
https://www.forbes.com/sites/fredcampbell/2017/05/03/the-truth-about-net-neutrality-the-left-and-google/#7912f08f3745

[turboswimbz]

The current net neutrality debate is just "fighting the last war." It's time to have an honest conversation about today's real internet monopolies and the future of a free media in this country.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
THIS!

Let's stop treating the telecom companies like utilities and letting them have a monopoly, and let's stop treating Google/Apple ect. as competitive.

this article also brings up this related topic:

https://www.ted.com/talks/eli_pariser_beware_online_filter_bubbles

[BigusSchmuck]

The current net neutrality debate is just "fighting the last war." It's time to have an honest conversation about today's real internet monopolies and the future of a free media in this country.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
THIS!

Let's stop treating the telecom companies like utilities and letting them have a monopoly, and let's stop treating Google/Apple ect. as competitive.

this article also brings up this related topic:

https://www.ted.com/talks/eli_pariser_beware_online_filter_bubbles

Bad ass, thank you for that. It goes to show these anti net neutrality guys are barking up the wrong tree. This article brings up even with net neutrality in place the internet is hardly a healthy state of competition.
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/11/network-neutrality-cant-fix-the-internet/546620/

[seieienbu]

It's definitely true that the internet has problems.  With that said, I absolutely believe that repealing net neutrality won't help the situation.

[BigusSchmuck]

John Oliver, strikes again.

[ClodBusted]

Found this today:



Source:

Loading: twitter.com/Arumi_kai/status/934429942527463424

[turboswimbz]

The owner of those sites is actually an interesting guy.

Back when I was working with a few E-sports teams, he was interested in sponsoring.  He loves gaming and video games.  He also is quite the straight forward business guy and is very outspoken on these types of topics. Guy gives more to Charity than you would believe.  It was strange to me that he was more supportive than the game companies.  (Blizz/Bungie/Activision) are a pain to deal with in particular. 

[BigusSchmuck]

These guys crack me up:

[MNKyDeth]

Also, not much to discuss here. But if you support Net Neutrality, which I think everyone does.....

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/we-people-call-resignation-fcc-chairman-ajit-varadaraj-pai

Go, sign, get this cuckload of ass out of the FCC.


Btw, as a gamer... One that plays online and off. I can see people having to pay a premium for lower pings to specific servers. Someone with a fast lane with a lower ping as there packets are prioritized will have a huge advantage over someone that doesn't pay the premium and gets a higher ping to said server with unprioritized packets.

Granted ping is usually an effect by distance from a physical server location. But by prioritizing packets artificial pings and latency can become an issue. It's a way to milk people of more money to give them special treatment.

Then... lets say facebook has to pay comcast just to be allowed across there network. Then lets say comcast charges you an extra $5 or even $10/mo just to access facebook because it's a service they have after facebook already paid comcast to be on there service. Double dip much?

When Net neutrality is gone, "We The People" will get fucked, and fucked hard if we want internet.

[NecroPhile]

Ha!  You really think Trump is going to listen?  Pai is who Trump wanted, and he's doing exactly what Trump wants: undoing another thing championed by Obama and helping big business at the expense of the common man.

[seieienbu]

I love how Trump's rhetoric was consistent during the election on making stuff better for the common guy but he's dicking Johnny Everyman over at every fucking turn.  Who could have foreseen a man who lives in a guilded penthouse not actually caring about the people on the streets beneath him but instead only caring about ways to make him and people like him wealthier?

[geise]

I never foresaw any of this happening with Trump. No way he would let any of this happen. He cares to much. 

[BigusSchmuck]

https://www.wired.com/story/expect-fewer-great-startups-if-the-fcc-kills-net-neutrality/
So much for supporting small businesses eh?

[mickcris]

the vote is happening now

https://www.fcc.gov/general/live

was just watching Pai talk some BS.  Then said security is making them take a recess.

edit:
and unsurprisingly it passed

[seieienbu]

Sigh.  Is America great again yet?

[esteban]

...sigh...

[TR0N]

Some body punch this foo in the face he just doesn't get it.

IP 1 the consumer 0 

[Groover]

I love how Trump's rhetoric was consistent during the election on making stuff better for the common guy but he's dicking Johnny Everyman over at every fucking turn.  Who could have foreseen a man who lives in a guilded penthouse not actually caring about the people on the streets beneath him but instead only caring about ways to make him and people like him wealthier?

Yeah, That was a huge surprise. If only he was a little older and had a huge history of screwing Johnny Everyman. It amazes me that no one saw this coming.

[BigusSchmuck]

https://gizmodo.com/the-looming-net-neutrality-fight-is-looking-damn-good-f-1821401711
Yep. So much for Republicans holding onto power if they don't overturn this ruling.

[RyuHayabusa]

Wow, I can't believe how much the internet has changed since Net Neutrality was voted down. It's almost like 2014 again. Oh the humanity!

[RyuHayabusa]

Wow, I can't believe how much the internet has changed since Net Neutrality was voted down. It's almost like 2014 again. Oh the humanity!

Quoted for preservation. Will revisit later when things have had enough time to go to shite.

Same here. I mean, we all trust the government to oversee, regulate, and police everything else it has it's tentacles in, right? More government because they do such a great job.  Really, net neutrality really did so much great stuff, didn't it? My internet worked exactly the same way as it did before but my prices went up considerably. Still only one cable company here because of local restrictions that didn't change under NN. The internet grew exponentially before 2015 but never mind that. Once again, it's those evil, greedy, no good rich people at it again screwing over the little guy like they always do. Obama tried to save us but that horrible, evil, racist Trump sided with the rich people. Liberals.

[seieienbu]

I expect things to get slightly worse over time for a long time.  I think that it's ridiculous expect for the stupid meme image of "$10 for Facebook, $10 for twitter" etc to happen already (or likely ever but that's a whole other argument).

[RyuHayabusa]

[RyuHayabusa]

Nulltard, it's funny because that's the mantra of liberalism, not conservatism. Everyone is a victim in the world of the left. Every failure MUST be because of someone's race, gender, sexuality, income level, education level, or what have you. If you failed, it's because of the system. Someone holding you down. It's probably some evil white man too. You are a victim. You are owed everything. If someone has more than you, it must because they obtained it through some unfair means and it's the job of the government to make it right, by force if necessary. That's liberalism in a nutshell.

[NecroPhile]

Because ISPs haven't yet done the things net neutrality was meant to protect, it's guaranteed that then never would.... even though such things have already come to pass in other countries?  Impeccable logic!

And I always enjoy the tired old saw about how the government fucks up everything they touch.  It shows just how ignorant you are.

[seieienbu]

Because ISPs haven't yet done the things net neutrality was meant to protect, it's guaranteed that then never would.... even though such things have already come to pass in other countries?  Impeccable logic!

And I always enjoy the tired old saw about how the government fucks up everything they touch.  It shows just how ignorant you are.

They were happening here in the states too.  In 2014 Verizon was intentionally fouling up Netflix due to the amount of people using the service.  Net Neutrality was intended specifically to stop corporations from doing things like this.

[RyuHayabusa]

Because ISPs haven't yet done the things net neutrality was meant to protect, it's guaranteed that then never would.... even though such things have already come to pass in other countries?  Impeccable logic!

And I always enjoy the tired old saw about how the government fucks up everything they touch.  It shows just how ignorant you are.

Ignorant? In case you haven't noticed the government is slow, wasteful and extremely inefficient though in some areas moreso than others. Hell, the government just spent over $100,000 to teach immigrants how to use Facebook. Like a good socialist though you keep asking for more government, more government.  It's not as though there will be zero regulation of the internet. The FTC will once again have primary oversight when it comes to protecting consumer's rights and deal with anything that might stifle competition just like before.

[seieienbu]

The FTC will once again have primary oversight when it comes to protecting consumer's rights and deal with anything that might stifle competition just like before.

Maybe you missed out on it (probably due to right-winged lies about how Net Neutrality stifles competition) but the government just did the exact opposite of what you say the FTC will do.

[RyuHayabusa]

The FTC will once again have primary oversight when it comes to protecting consumer's rights and deal with anything that might stifle competition just like before.

Maybe you missed out on it (probably due to right-winged lies about how Net Neutrality stifles competition) but the government just did the exact opposite of what you say the FTC will do.

Explain.

[RyuHayabusa]

Nulltard, again you keep posting these memes that actually embody the Democrat mission statement - I might not have much but the Democrats will make sure others have even less... because the government will take what everyone else has and redistribute it to ensure equality and fairness.

[seieienbu]

Maybe you missed out on it (probably due to right-winged lies about how Net Neutrality stifles competition) but the government just did the exact opposite of what you say the FTC will do.

Explain.

Net Neutrality was an ideal to where all data is treated equally.  Repealing it allows data to not be treated equally.  Thus, if there's a rival to your business model you can crush them by merely not allowing them to have data and therefore kill them; you no longer need to have competition.

Nulltard, again you keep posting these memes that actually embody the Democrat mission statement - I might not have much but the Democrats will make sure others have even less... because the government will take what everyone else has and redistribute it to ensure equality and fairness.

Don't get me wrong, the dems don't stand for much of anything at the moment.  With that said, as a general rule for the past 30 years or so they've tried to get more for the lower class and not, what, I don't even understand what you're getting at here.  Take from the poorest and throw it away?

[RyuHayabusa]

Net Neutrality was an ideal to where all data is treated equally.  Repealing it allows data to not be treated equally.  Thus, if there's a rival to your business model you can crush them by merely not allowing them to have data and therefore kill them; you no longer need to have competition.

The FTC has control over anti-trust issues and apparently NN didn't stop Verizon from doing what you say it's supposed to have stopped. I could be wrong, and if in 5 years I turn out to be then I'll admit it but I can't see ISPs charging more to access this site or that site or having to have multiple services to access all sites. Push back from consumers plus competition would likely stop that from happening.

Don't get me wrong, the dems don't stand for much of anything at the moment.  With that said, as a general rule for the past 30 years or so they've tried to get more for the lower class and not, what, I don't even understand what you're getting at here.  Take from the poorest and throw it away?

Not true. They've merely used poor people to stay in power all the while running pretty much anything they touch into the ground. Chicago, Baltimore, St. Louis, etc etc etc. Even California, what was the 8th largest economy in the world, is billions of dollars in debt despite it's high taxation because of all their socialist programs. The Dems just use racism, sexism, xenophobia, etc as rallying cries for votes while the spend their states into oblivion.

My point about Nulltard's meme is that what is says is actually what the Democrats do, making people equally poor through high taxation and redistribution of wealth through government programs.

[ClodBusted]

Nulltard. Damn right.

[NecroPhile]

What is it with these ignorant troll cunts?  If you have anything even slightly negative to say about Trump or any of his actions, you're automatically labeled a far left wing antifa socialist nutter.  There's no middle ground! 


Here's a couple facts for Mr. Anti-regulation:

1.  Utilities (water/power/gas/sewer/etc.) in the US are heavily regulated and often publicly owned, and they're generally cheaper and more reliable than what's found in other western countries.
2.  Internet service, which net neutrality aimed to treat and regulate like a utility, is far slower and more expensive than what the rest of the world has (through regulation and/or government ownership more often than not).

[LostFlunky]

Net neutrality was an Obama era item - otherwise it wouldn't have been on Trump's radar.  It was a Republican initiative and bipartisan approved.

AT&T can go back to blocking FaceTime, slowing down bit-torrent traffic if they want.  Comcast and Verizon can start charging Netflix for access to their networks etc etc.  Let's see who will be able to get the most out of Google...  Hopefully it doesn't end up like a cable tv menu where you get to pick from a list of packages and web services you can access for your monthly fees, because that is where it was heading...

http://whatisnetneutrality.org/timeline

[RyuHayabusa]

What is it with these ignorant troll cunts?  If you have anything even slightly negative to say about Trump or any of his actions, you're automatically labeled a far left wing antifa socialist nutter.  There's no middle ground! 

Seriously? Yeah, I'm the bad guy. The amount of anti-Trump rhetoric on this forum is considerable and in case you haven't noticed, dissenting voices are not very welcome.

Here's a couple facts for Mr. Anti-regulation:

Not against all regulation, just over-regulation.

1.  Utilities (water/power/gas/sewer/etc.) in the US are heavily regulated and often publicly owned, and they're generally cheaper and more reliable than what's found in other western countries.
2.  Internet service, which net neutrality aimed to treat and regulate like a utility, is far slower and more expensive than what the rest of the world has (through regulation and/or government ownership more often than not).

America is a much larger country than all those western European and east Asian countries and much less densely populated. City and local governments have too many laws dictating how ISPs upgrade equipment and to top it off is the insane cost to upgrade everything across the US. Even Google with it's tremendous wealth has been extremely slow in rolling out Google Fiber. It costs millions to upgrade each node of the thousands of nodes across the country. That's why the bigger cities are upgraded first since it affects the most people and then later upgrades move to smaller cities. With small countries like the UK it's much easier because there's less to upgrade and less cost. Yes, more competition would help but as stated before it's expensive and local/city governments have laws that stifle competition.

[BigusSchmuck]

A brief history on ISPs douchery:
https://www.freepress.net/blog/2017/04/25/net-neutrality-violations-brief-history
Makes you wonder if people will have to pay a fee to run their crypto coin miners...

[RyuHayabusa]

A brief history on ISPs douchery:
https://www.freepress.net/blog/2017/04/25/net-neutrality-violations-brief-history
Makes you wonder if people will have to pay a fee to run their crypto coin miners...

That's a small list. Two of them aren't even from the US. One of them was done to stop illegal file sharing through P2P programs. As for the others, yes, some companies do questionable things but that didn't stop after 2015 either. Companies are always doing things to give themselves advantages and that's why they're taken to court. Like I said before, it's not as though all regulation of the internet is suddenly gone.

[turboswimbz]

A brief history on ISPs douchery:
https://www.freepress.net/blog/2017/04/25/net-neutrality-violations-brief-history
Makes you wonder if people will have to pay a fee to run their crypto coin miners...

That's a small list. Two of them aren't even from the US. One of them was done to stop illegal file sharing through P2P programs. As for the others, yes, some companies do questionable things but that didn't stop after 2015 either. Companies are always doing things to give themselves advantages and that's why they're taken to court. Like I said before, it's not as though all regulation of the internet is suddenly gone.

Ehh. I actually have hope that things won't become that bad.  I do worry that in order to see "Multi-MEdia ITEM A"  I'll have to buy service A.  This already true with things like Netflix exclusives, but I worry it may expand to entire channels, websites, or other things (Ideas) that shouldn't really be "Exclusive".
 I believe the only reason the world technology continues to grow so fast is the movement of open ideas.  Now there are downsides to that as with everything, but I'd rather see more openness than closed off ideals.

[NecroPhile]

Seriously? Yeah, I'm the bad guy. The amount of anti-Trump rhetoric on this forum is considerable and in case you haven't noticed, dissenting voices are not very welcome.

Like I said, you're a troll asshole because you negate everyone's argument by resorting to absolutes.  If we're for net neutrality, then in your fool mind we want government regulations on everything and as heavy handed as possible; and we don't disagree on Trump on this issue for rational reasons (like wanting to ensure fair access to the internet) but because we think Trump is racist, sexist, evil, etc.

America is a much larger country than all those western European and east Asian countries and much less densely populated. City and local governments have too many laws dictating how ISPs upgrade equipment and to top it off is the insane cost to upgrade everything across the US. Even Google with it's tremendous wealth has been extremely slow in rolling out Google Fiber. It costs millions to upgrade each node of the thousands of nodes across the country. That's why the bigger cities are upgraded first since it affects the most people and then later upgrades move to smaller cities. With small countries like the UK it's much easier because there's less to upgrade and less cost. Yes, more competition would help but as stated before it's expensive and local/city governments have laws that stifle competition.

You realize all those factors apply to utilities too, right?  That's the point, doofus:  despite all the cost and low density and regulations, our utilities are cheaper and better than most.