Nintendo's best console

[Digi.k]

was this auction genuine O_o

http://cgi.ebay.com/Chrono-Trigger-Super-Nintendo-BRAND-NEW-UNOPENED_W0QQitemZ220103396360QQihZ012QQcategoryZ62053QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[Seldane]

Looks pretty genuine. Kind of hard to tell on American games as the shrinkwrap is just standard shrinkwrap (except for that hanger on the SNES games, but it ought to be pretty easy to put it on there manually). Nintendo always embedded a string of Nintendo logos in the plastic (not shrink wrap) for their European releases (at least since the SNES era, not sure about the NES games).

/473364151gc7.jpg

[SignOfZeta]

Astro Boy

Damn straight! This game is often overlooked because it stars the cutesy Astroboy characters. Big mistake, since its one of the best games on the system IMO.

Well, the same can be said for the actual Astro Boy manga. Because it's old doesn't have modern manga elements (dudes with angel wings, maids...dumb shit like that) people think its just some old crusty junk. I love it though. The Astro Boy manga has some of the most interesting hard SF elements I've ever read. Like, P.K. Dick-grade stuff, IMO. Then...

Then Atom goes to 'Nam, and the shit gets real.

[CrackTiger]

was this auction genuine O_o

http://cgi.ebay.com/Chrono-Trigger-Super-Nintendo-BRAND-NEW-UNOPENED_W0QQitemZ220103396360QQihZ012QQcategoryZ62053QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The buyer left positive feedback.

[GUTS]

US SNES games all had a vertical line on the shrinkwrap on the back that's basically next to impossible to replicate so it's pretty easy to tell real factory sealed ones.

[Seldane]

Aah, good to know. Guess I've only seen fake shrinkwrapped SNES games then, hehe. Not exactly uncommon. The bastards. Well, I'd never buy a shrinkwrapped game anyway...

[GUTS]

Yeah it's amazing how many people get scammed like that.  I saw one guy on ebay was selling "NEW sealed" cartridges only, it was hilarious.  Everything he had was listed "NEW SEALED!" but they were just shrinkwrapped cartridges and sometimes the manuals, like he'd bought a shrink wrapper at a garage sale and then went crazy.

[Keranu]

Remember that seller on these boards who was trying to sell a sealed copy of Snatcher for Sega CD but it had a huge ass hole on the front? He was trying to make a big deal how it was sealed and stuff, it was hilarious.

[TurboXray]

US SNES games all had a vertical line on the shrinkwrap on the back that's basically next to impossible to replicate so it's pretty easy to tell real factory sealed ones.

]

 Nah, I used to easily reshrink wrap SNES games with the line in the back. I didn't have a machine - just a soldering iron, metal ruler, and a heat gun.

 Anyway, someone mentioned the SNES running at 3.58mhz. That's in fast ROM mode - early(and most) SNES roms used slower ROMs that set the CPU to 2.79mhz and some were combo fast/slow rom carts. SNES's PPU is pretty amazing though while it's CPU is slow and lacking any additional custom CPU opcodes. One thing the SNES did have was a fairly fast multiply/divide IC that the CPU accessed via ports - though still not as fast as a lookup table.

The SNES's sPPU had a mode to do 8bit tiles(256colors) which is why the 60fps mode 7 effects looked nice, while the SegaCD was limited to one 16 color palette for *all* the scaling/rotation and was limited to 30fps at best (small window) and much less FPS for full screen window(scaling/rotation). What a waste of cost.


But.. NES for the win. While the SNES graphics were beautiful, a lot of the games were just came off as generic feeling. NES had much more fun and memorable games.

[Joe Redifer]

the SegaCD was limited to one 16 color palette for *all* the scaling/rotation and was limited to 30fps at best (small window) and much less FPS for full screen window(scaling/rotation).

Explain Soul Star.  Looked like a lot more than 16 colors to me, and there was a lot of full screen scaling there.  Same with Batman Returns, a game with what I consider better-than-NeoGeo scaling.  Very few games did the scaling well, though.  Too bad the SNES could only scale a background.

[CrackTiger]

the SegaCD was limited to one 16 color palette for *all* the scaling/rotation and was limited to 30fps at best (small window) and much less FPS for full screen window(scaling/rotation).

Explain Soul Star.  Looked like a lot more than 16 colors to me, and there was a lot of full screen scaling there.  Same with Batman Returns, a game with what I consider better-than-NeoGeo scaling.  Very few games did the scaling well, though.  Too bad the SNES could only scale a background.

I haven't played Soul Star in a decade, but from what I remember it could've used 16 color pieces, even though it still looked nice and colorful.

Maybe those Sega-CD games did some of their scaling the ole fashioned way since the cpu's so friggin' fast.

[GUTS]

Sega CD games had amazing scaling that completely and utterly blew the SNES's scaling out of the water, compare ANY snes game's scaling to Soul Star, Battle Corps, or Batman Returns.  The Sega CD was a beast.

[Keranu]

In reality though, all of those scaling and rotation effects were cheesy. GUTS' fanboyism really shows by how he can make fun of mode 7 to no stop yet praise Sega CD's effects. Honestly, I can't really make a difference in the quality between them. It's not that I don't like the effects, because I like cheese  .

[Joe Redifer]

Keranu, what would you have in place of scaling effects?  Jumping sprites?  Things that never grow or shrink even of the game calls for it?  That's like saying the color green is cheesy.

[Seldane]

How exactly is mode 7 cheesy? I think it adds a lot to the game. Secret of Mana just wouldn't be the same without that nice map and the Flammie flight, for example. Other games like Super Mario Kart are also awesome.

[OldRover]

Scaling/rotation are pretty common features in 2D graphics libraries for PC games. Hard to find one that doesn't have such capabilities. As with anything, it's not the effect itself but how it's used. Overuse of anything cheapens the whole effect.

Joe, the SNES could scale both backgrounds and sprites. Even SMW shows off sprite scaling.

[Kitsunexus]

Scaling and rotation are not cheesy, I prefer them to some 3D effects we have today.

[Joe Redifer]

SNES could not scale sprites.  If it could, don't you think F-Zero and Pilotwings would scale them?  If in Super Mario World you are referring to Bowser, he is a background.

[Kitsunexus]

SNES could not scale sprites.  If it could, don't you think F-Zero and Pilotwings would scale them?  If in Super Mario World you are referring to Bowser, he is a background.

That may have been, but if you google "SNES sprite scaling", you get a bunch of pages that say it DOES scale sprites...also I'm pretty sure the Contra 3 missles were sprites.

[CrackTiger]

If you guys wanna see some real sprite scaling, just watch the opening cinema of Gate of Thunder(or finish a match of Bomberman '93). 

[Keranu]

Keranu, what would you have in place of scaling effects?  Jumping sprites?  Things that never grow or shrink even of the game calls for it?  That's like saying the color green is cheesy.

You're assuming that I hate the effect, which I stated I don't. I do, like others, find the effect to be very cheesy and I'm not quite sure if I can explain why from a technical side. It just tends to look goofy and pixellated and I think that the fact that systems like SNES and Sega CD advertised the effect sort of made developers include it in their games as a gimmick. CrackTiger once made a great post that sorta dealt with the gimmick appeal of scailing on the SNES by showing how Bonk 3's big sprite would've looked if it was just simply enlarged with the hardware instead of taking the time to smooth out the details.

[TurboXray]

the SegaCD was limited to one 16 color palette for *all* the scaling/rotation and was limited to 30fps at best (small window) and much less FPS for full screen window(scaling/rotation).

Explain Soul Star.  Looked like a lot more than 16 colors to me, and there was a lot of full screen scaling there.  Same with Batman Returns, a game with what I consider better-than-NeoGeo scaling.  Very few games did the scaling well, though.  Too bad the SNES could only scale a background.

It's simple really - the scaling IC for the SegaCD creates a bitmap to upload to the VDP as one of the display layers. The VDP can only upload up to ~7.38k per frame (during vblank via DMA). A fullscreen scaling/rotation/whatever frame at 320x224 takes 35.8k of unique tile data. That would require 5 (4.8 ) frames to upload all that planar bitmap data (not to mention wasting VRAM on double buffering). That's about 12fps for fullscreen scaling/rotation/whatever. A smaller window(bitmap) takes up less memory, less frame updates, and therefore faster FPS.

 Regarding the 16 color limit, it's difficult to explain but each tile only holds 16 colors (out of 4 palettes), there is no way to have one tile color overlap (think scaling larger) into another tile data that contains a color that's not it that specific palette - within a single layer (BG, sprite, or as a fixed window).

 The SegaCD has no way to interface directly with the VDP and that's why it has these limitations.

 As for the SNES, I have the 800+ page develo manual and there's no mention of sprite scaling/rotation. Just a single BG layer (with 256 color tiles and up to 60fps via HDMA). And from what I remember the SNES addon chips (SFX, C4, etc) don't interface with the sPPU video processor either like the SegaCD so any sprite scaling is done via the same method, except the SNES's DMA is a little slower running around 5-6k. Byuu or one of the other SNES emu authors would know more on this that I, though.

[GUTS]

Keranu the difference in SNES/Sega CD games with scaling/rotation is that the Sega CD games actually put the effects to good use, unlike most of the SNES games that just did it just because the system could.  For every F-Zero there's 10 Mohawk & Headphone Jacks that use mode 7 for awful, awful things (like the motorcycle race in Chrono Trigger, ugh).  Sega CD didn't have many games that used the effects, but the ones that did all put it to great use.

[Kitsunexus]

As for the SNES, I have the 800+ page develo manual

Even though I wouldn't understand most of it, this is something I'd REALLY like to read...

[Turbo D]

Nintendo never made any good consoles, just great software 

[CrackTiger]

Keranu the difference in SNES/Sega CD games with scaling/rotation is that the Sega CD games actually put the effects to good use, unlike most of the SNES games that just did it just because the system could.  For every F-Zero there's 10 Mohawk & Headphone Jacks that use mode 7 for awful, awful things (like the motorcycle race in Chrono Trigger, ugh).  Sega CD didn't have many games that used the effects, but the ones that did all put it to great use.

Yeah, but thats because there are also a hundred times as many SNES games as Sega-CD games. If you break it down, there are probably more SNES games that put scaling to good use than Sega-CD games.

But does it really matter how abused it is if its considered good when used right?

I'm just surprised at how many times hardware scaling was used for simple effects that could've been done through animation and looked way better(like the giant Bonk 3 sprite).

[Seldane]

The SNES is abused - there are too many games on the system. They're all using the same thing - the SNES CPU. Pathetic.

[Kitsunexus]

(like the motorcycle race in Chrono Trigger, ugh).

I LIKE THAT RACE.

[Seldane]

I like it too. If it hadn't used mode seven, I wouldn't have liked it. Mode seven is what makes the SNES the only old video game system that actually features somewhat playable racing games.

[Kitsunexus]

Other notable Mode 7 games:

Mechwarrior: Unlike the isometric game, this was a port of the PC Mechwarrior, and is a first-person Mode 7 mech sim. If only they had utilized the Super FX and made a SNES Mechwarrior 2....


Space Football One-On-One: BALLBLAZERS CLONE!!!


Lock-On: Incredibly fun jet dogfighter sim. Must be played to be believed.

[CrackTiger]

Other notable Mode 7 games:

Mechwarrior: Unlike the isometric game, this was a port of the PC Mechwarrior, and is a first-person Mode 7 mech sim. If only they had utilized the Super FX and made a SNES Mechwarrior 2....


Space Football One-On-One: BALLBLAZERS CLONE!!!


Lock-On: Incredibly fun jet dogfighter sim. Must be played to be believed.

They did make Vortex. I don't know if the game's any good, but it is a 3D mecha SNES game.

[Kitsunexus]

They did make Vortex. I don't know if the game's any good, but it is a 3D mecha SNES game.

1. It's great.
2. It's one of my favorites.
3. It's not made by the same company (Argonaut, not FASA)
4. IT'S SUPER FX, NOT MODE 7, WHICH IS WHY I DIDN'T MENTION IT, IDIOTHEAD POOPFORBRAINS. :p

[CrackTiger]

They did make Vortex. I don't know if the game's any good, but it is a 3D mecha SNES game.

1. It's great.
2. It's one of my favorites.
3. It's not made by the same company (Argonaut, not FASA)
4. IT'S SUPER FX, NOT MODE 7, WHICH IS WHY I DIDN'T MENTION IT, IDIOTHEAD POOPFORBRAINS. :p

Sorry, I thought you said:

Mechwarrior: Unlike the isometric game, this was a port of the PC Mechwarrior, and is a first-person Mode 7 mech sim. If only they had utilized the Super FX and made a SNES Mechwarrior 2....

[Kitsunexus]

Sorry, I thought you said...

Vortex is great. I love it to death. IT IS NO MECHWARRIOR 2. Vortex is arcade. Mechwarrior 2 is REAL.

This is Vortex (abliet a rather unfair and unfavorable review).

This is Mechwarrior 2. Don't tell me the Super FX couldn't push this

This is MechWarrior 2 Titanium Edition, a DirectX enhanced version (video sync problems, sorry).

[Joe Redifer]

CrackTiger once made a great post that sorta dealt with the gimmick appeal of scailing on the SNES by showing how Bonk 3's big sprite would've looked if it was just simply enlarged with the hardware instead of taking the time to smooth out the details.

You're thinking of what I like to call "grow scaling" instead of "shrink scaling".  Grow scaling means it takes a certain graphics and grows it and it becomes blocky.  Shrink scaling starts out with a larger, detailed graphic and shrinks it... no blockiness.  Now keep in mind that the terms "grow" and "shrink" don't necessarily mean that they can only get bigger or smaller.  Space Harrier uses shrink scaling and everything comes toward you.  No blockiness.  Still cheesy?

[Kitsunexus]

CrackTiger once made a great post that sorta dealt with the gimmick appeal of scailing on the SNES by showing how Bonk 3's big sprite would've looked if it was just simply enlarged with the hardware instead of taking the time to smooth out the details.

You're thinking of what I like to call "grow scaling" instead of "shrink scaling".  Grow scaling means it takes a certain graphics and grows it and it becomes blocky.  Shrink scaling starts out with a larger, detailed graphic and shrinks it... no blockiness.  Now keep in mind that the terms "grow" and "shrink" don't necessarily mean that they can only get bigger or smaller.  Space Harrier uses shrink scaling and everything comes toward you.  No blockiness.  Still cheesy?

But that'd be illogical for a platform game like Bonk, since you have to keep all the frames of that huge sprite in memory...

[Joe Redifer]

It has to be in memory anyway.

[Seldane]

Problem with "shrink" scaling is that everything looks like **** when shrinked.

[CrackTiger]

Black_Tiger once made a great post that sorta dealt with the gimmick appeal of scailing on the SNES by showing how Bonk 3's big sprite would've looked if it was just simply enlarged with the hardware instead of taking the time to smooth out the details.

You're thinking of what I like to call "grow scaling" instead of "shrink scaling".  Grow scaling means it takes a certain graphics and grows it and it becomes blocky.  Shrink scaling starts out with a larger, detailed graphic and shrinks it... no blockiness.  Now keep in mind that the terms "grow" and "shrink" don't necessarily mean that they can only get bigger or smaller.  Space Harrier uses shrink scaling and everything comes toward you.  No blockiness.  Still cheesy?

No, because that's a scaling effect done right. Most cases with SNES games, anything that rotates partially or gets larger at all uses Mode 7 on the 'sprites' as-is instead of sparing memory for a few frames of animation.

[Kitsunexus]

Let's get back on topic about how the only thing that would suffer in a SNES MechWarrior 2 port would be the audio.

[Joe Redifer]

Problem with "shrink" scaling is that everything looks like **** when shrinked.

As opposed to looking like blocky **** when grown?  You like the pixely-blocky SNES graphics, don't you?  I bet that you squirt a load in your pants when Super Mario World turns into a mess of pixels FOR NO REASON at the beginning of the stage.  The closer graphics come to the Atari 2600, the more you like them.  I should point at you, laugh and make fun of your mom for this.  I'm going to tell the cool kids about you and they'll surely beat you up.   

Anyway, all nearest-neighbor scaling pretty much sucks compared to what can be done these days.

[Kitsunexus]

Actually, I do like pixelly graphics, when they're used like they are in Tempest 2000.

[Joe Redifer]

Then why doesn't your avatar look like this SNES-ized version I did for you ?


(SNES graphics rule!)

Surely that looks 100 times better than your current avatar ?

[Kitsunexus]

You're being stupid.

1. My avatar IS from the SNES, it's been scaled down and has a background from Sukusuku Infuku on the PS2.

Here's the original size:

farm1.static.flickr.com/228/466535993_9e7aefda35.jpg

2. Maybe you don't understand what I mean by Tempest 2000 pixels:



MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH more impressive in the game.

And if you can't be arsed to run a Jaguar emulator, try this:

http://typhoon.kuto.de/download.html

[CrackTiger]

Black_Tiger once made a great post that sorta dealt with the gimmick appeal of scailing on the SNES by showing how Bonk 3's big sprite would've looked if it was just simply enlarged with the hardware instead of taking the time to smooth out the details.

You're thinking of what I like to call "grow scaling" instead of "shrink scaling".  Grow scaling means it takes a certain graphics and grows it and it becomes blocky.  Shrink scaling starts out with a larger, detailed graphic and shrinks it... no blockiness.  Now keep in mind that the terms "grow" and "shrink" don't necessarily mean that they can only get bigger or smaller.  Space Harrier uses shrink scaling and everything comes toward you.  No blockiness.  Still cheesy?

But that'd be illogical for a platform game like Bonk, since you have to keep all the frames of that huge sprite in memory...

Since they didn't use shrink scaling, they instead kept all the huge, medium and tiny sprite sizes in memory.

[Joe Redifer]

My avatar IS from the SNES, it's been scaled down and has a background from Sukusuku Infuku on the PS2.

OK.  I don't know what "Sukusukususku Infuckyou" is, but it sounds gay.  If it were cool it would definitely have an English title.  FACT.

Maybe you don't understand what I mean by Tempest 2000 pixels:

Yeah, nobody was even mentioning anything even remotely like that when talking about pixely graphics.  I don't consider those pixely at all.  I am talking about pixely grow scaling and the nasty mosaic feature the SNES likes to do that looks like ass.

And if you can't be arsed to run a Jaguar emulator, try this: http://typhoon.kuto.de/download.html

"arsed"?  Oh my, what has the movie "Titanic" wrought with the inclusion of that word?  If that movie never existed, people all over the net would be saying "ass" instead.

[OldRover]

"Grow scaling" and "shrink scaling"...lol. You know, they have proper names, it's "upscaling" and "downscaling". When a function can perform both, it's called "free scaling". Upscaling produces duplicate pixels if unfiltered, and downscaling eliminates certain pixels. Downscaling can make a real mess of an image if there's no priority programmed into the scaler.

As for the SNES scaling bit, it looks like I was wrong. If Bonknuts says there's no sprite scaling/rotation (known as "rotozooming"), then there isn't, end of story. But then again, I never got into mode 7 programming, so I never really cared.

The SNES's Mosaic effect was rarely put to good use. The only game I can think of that did anything good with it is Super Turrican.

One thing's for sure...fanboyism never dies.

[Kitsunexus]

OK.  I don't know what "Sukusukususku Infuckyou" is, but it sounds gay.  If it were cool it would definitely have an English title.  FACT.

See this thread for details.

"arsed"?  Oh my, what has the movie "Titanic" wrought with the inclusion of that word?  If that movie never existed, people all over the net would be saying "ass" instead.

In all honesty, I didn't even realize the movie used that word!  I actually picked it up from the Rareware Scribes page...I have one letter they actually answer, if you want to find it, it's up to you to use the information you know about me to find it.

[Seldane]

Problem with "shrink" scaling is that everything looks like **** when shrinked.

As opposed to looking like blocky **** when grown?]

No no, I never said that. I just .... never mentioned it whatsoever. Both upscaling and downscaling looks like **** on **** hardware. Period. If I was in charge back then (which, incidentally, I was- I just never did what I was supposed to do) I would ban scaling altogether.

[Kitsunexus]

Problem with "shrink" scaling is that everything looks like **** when shrinked.

As opposed to looking like blocky **** when grown?]

No no, I never said that. I just .... never mentioned it whatsoever. Both upscaling and downscaling looks like **** on **** hardware. Period. If I was in charge back then (which, incidentally, I was- I just never did what I was supposed to do) I would ban scaling altogether.

Just because Nintendo has retards in their R&D department doesn't mean you should hate on scaling. SEGA and SNK have scaling down to a science.