I Purchased Sapphire!

[CrackTiger]

Ceph, I think you should check out this thread https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=846&highlight=sapphire+laser+disc . PCEngineHell makes some excellent points why it might not be a counterfit. I believe it's not a counterfit either mainly because of Michael's reasons, but I can't say I believe Fudoh's story about these alternate Sapphires being a second run by Hudson. I think it could be a possibility, but who knows? For now from the facts I have gathered, mainly from Michael, is that I believe it's not a counterfit.

I still think that they're bootlegs, but am very glad that they exist.

The reason most game bootlegs are lower quality is to make them worthwhile to buy.

Most of the major bootleg music cd/soundtrack publishers' disc are around the same quality that these Sapphire's sound like. Except with Sapphire, they didn't alter the images to make it look like they were distributing it instead of the original Japanese publishers.

And since the goal here was obviously to make a realistic looking copy, I'm not surprised that it looks as good as it does(but as inferior as it is to the real deal).

Since it doesn't have Ever-Anime or Son May or whatever all over it, that means that its not supposed to be a cheap copy, but a genuine counterfeit. And the only reason someone would got to the trouble of making a counterfeit and not just an Ever-Anime type copy is because of Sapphire's value.

Even if the print quality wasn't obviously reproduced, the fact that its not a real PC Engine disc is giveaway enough.

But like I said, I'm glad that they're out there. I just wish that people wouldn't sell them for hundreds of dollars as originals.

But if someone did buy it for $60, thinking it was an original and they just want to enjoy it for themselves, then it doesn't matter what it really is if it makes them happy(thinking that its real as it gathers dust on their shelf).

If someone buys one for $60 with the intention of jacking up the price and making a buck on someone elses' back, then let them find out what they were really buying when it shows up in the mail.

Whats legal and whats moral not only aren't equal, but are inconsistant within themselves.

Its legal to reproduce video game system hardware like the NES and even ripp off the artistic likeness for profit(or not for profit).

But its not legal to reproduce a game that hasn't been published in a decade and that the maker has no intention of ever selling again... for profit(but it is legal for personal use or to giveway). Even though you're not taking money away from anyone, because the refuse to sell it.

Now, if you're going to just yell from behind "its illegal!", as people did about downloading/sharing free roms for years(before it was deemed legal), does that mean if a judge changes that tomorrow or if the copyright/trademark/etc runs out that you're all of a sudden okay with it?

And if not, if you're all about the moral aspect of this kinda stuff and you feel that getting something for free or paying someone other than the original owner for it is wrong, well its now legal a lot of the time, so you can't turn all the commies in.

What I don't get, is why aren't these people up in arms about no one paying licensing fees to cavemen or ancient egyptions or the authors of campfire songs or catchphrases?

The ridiculousness of nobody being able to even think of something they experienced without paying someone for it is getting out of hand. If they're going to sue clothing stores for playing cd music or the radio(or putting tariffs on cdrs, which of course are used for nothing other than stealing music), then they might as well sue you for replaying the same songs in your mind while you're flipping burgers at McDonalds.

[esteban]

Ceph, I think you should check out this thread https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=846&highlight=sapphire+laser+disc . PCEngineHell makes some excellent points why it might not be a counterfit. I believe it's not a counterfit either mainly because of Michael's reasons, but I can't say I believe Fudoh's story about these alternate Sapphires being a second run by Hudson. I think it could be a possibility, but who knows? For now from the facts I have gathered, mainly from Michael, is that I believe it's not a counterfit.

These are counterfeits -- I've never doubted that. But since few of us can afford to purchase a genuine copy of the game, these are, unfortunately, the next best thing. I was going to buy one, but then I decided not to.

The biggest problem, as I see it, is the fact that unscrupulous sellers will attempt to sell this as a genuine item.

I've said this before, but it bears repeating: If it weren't for these boards, or for randomly reading an old discussion archived at the TurboList (R.I.P.) , I would be the sad soul who would pay $300 for a counterfeit Sapphire.

I stopped purchasing Gameboy / GBA games on ebay because there is a deluge of counterfeit items and there is no way to filter out the bad sellers (why? because otherwise honest folks are unknowingly re-selling counterfeit games they thought were legit).

So, ultimately, counterfeit items really do far more damage than good. And it breaks my heart to say this, because I still would love to get a counterfeit copy of Sapphire.  

In my heart, I agree with CrackTiger about the Sapphire counterfeit providing a useful function for the Turbo community ($60 beats $300 pricetag)... but I don't think this "good" outweighs the overhall harm (tears are falling on the keyboard as I type this).

P.S. I'm conflicted over this issue, for sure. As I said, I would love to have an affordable reproduction of the game, and I got THIS CLOSE to buying one from Fudoh. If money wasn't so tight, I'd be holding a copy in my hand right now . Of course, that wouldn't change how I felt about this issue at all. I'd feel guilty for compromising my principles, but then again, I'd be able to play Sapphire.

[PCEngineHell]

You shouldnt feel guilty at all,as I do  not think Hudson would care one way or the other about fans just wanting to play the game.
Also,the disc manufacturer,Care4Data,did anyone try to get ahold of one of their pressing plants to see if they can still do pressings for PC Engine?
ANd yea,really,I dont care to own Sapphire,but looking at my friends 2 copies,unless you would have a original infront of you,I dont think anyone could tell,you would think its real,wether real or not,I think 60 bucks is a great deal for a real pressed disc of a very rare game.It not like he is selling cd-rs.Your still getting a great quality product for what its worth.

[esteban]

You shouldnt feel guilty at all,as I do  not think Hudson would care one way or the other about fans just wanting to play the game.

Ahh, let me clarify: When I said I would feel guilty, I would feel guilty because I had violated my own principles (by supporting counterfeiters, who do more harm than good, IMO) simply because I wanted to play a game (a rather selfish reason to deviate from one's own principles).

If I buy this game, I'm contributing to the "greater harm" simply for the sake of my own selfish good.

I'm not trying to convince agree with me . I'm simply explaining where I stand on this issue, and how I struggle with my DESIRE vs. my ethics.

I'd purchase a pirated multi-cart, for example, because it makes no pretensions at being a genuine item. Not so with Sapphire. Or maybe I wouldn't purchase a multi-cart. I don't know...

[PCEngineHell]

Look at it this way,your keeping the rare multi carts and bootlegs of wonderful shooters from filling landfills,and overall keeping polution down in the process.Where will it all go if you guys dont buy the good bootlegs.I agree with you to some aspects,current stuff Id never pay for.But rare carts of stuff I would,or a cool looking bootleg that has nice artwork or something,that would make it stand out other then the simple fact its a clone.And a real pressed 100 percent working disc,Id go for that too of a out of print game thats 5 + years old.My friend Eric,he has alot of MegaDrive carts that are fakes,like Contra Hard Corps,which has Duke Nukem for the front cover,making it funny to look at.Stuff like that is great to collect and overall laugh at.Plus its really cool to take them apart and see the reverse enginering that is done.I got him afew Famicom carts a couple years ago,including one that had SF2 on it.For 8 bit bootlegged SF,it was really close as far as the Nes/Fami is concerned.
I did however hate bootlegged Neo carts,and cart converts for Neo.I dotn approve of them,because you can just as easily use a MVS and Super Gun.Sooner or later,there wont be enough of  lets say "rare MVS cart A"
to go around because the majority of them have been converted.Ninja Masters and Kazuna Encounter are 2 carts that come to mind for the MVS that this has happened to.

[GUTS]

Personally I wouldn't buy it just because I can't stand the thought of spending good money on a fake something.  If I'm gonna lay out some cash, I only want real authentic shit.

[MotherGunner]

The only reason why it can be a "second run", is because no company would press just one game to make a lot of money.  Why stop there?  How come we don't see more Dracula X, or Bonk 3 CD copies?

If they really wanted to make a profit we'd be seeing more titles.  And why go through all the trouble to put out a game that is over a decade old?  Why only PC Engine?  Why not high quality xbox and ps2 games?


It doesn't make sense to just dismiss this as a bootleg.  I haven't seen too many bootleggers that would go through all that trouble.

Also these started to pop up shortly after the release of the original game.  So the story of Hudson outsourcing the production of more copies is certainly possible.

My two cents.

[PCEngineHell]

glad a couple of people agreed with that theory of mine.Since no one here has tried to contact Care4 Data,to ask for production cost and what not,who knows.Im not going to bother,its not my real worry.I worry about getting more laserdisc these days.

[Emerald Rocker]

It makes sense to be a bootleg because it's worth a lot of money per copy sold -- the profit margin is way higher than selling counterfeit GTA3 or Dragon Quest 8, and it's harder to detect because there are fewer originals in the market.  The timing is also interesting: they appeared right after warehouses emptied out their PCE Arcade Card Pro/Duo stock --- so when these bootlegs were made (2001-ish), demand for Sapphire was at its HIGHEST ever.  It was brilliant timing, really.

At the time these were made, it was much easier and more profitable to make counterfeit Sapphire than it was to make counterfeit PS2 or Xbox games.

They're fakes -- live with it.  I'm not saying that in any ethical sense: if you're fine with the idea of buying forgeries, be my guest.  But trying to rationalize them as being anything other than bootlegs is self-delusion.

[GUTS]

I agree with the rocker, I don't get how anybody can not see these are fakes.  Big companies like Hudson don't give a shit about selling a few hundred copies of some old PC Engine game, the profit they would make on that is miniscule and not worth their time in any way.  The ONLY time you EVER see reprints of games is in the tens of thousands like greatest hits games or the extremely RARE reprint of a game for a current console (like Suikoden III for example).

[PCEngineHell]

Not saying its real, but Im not saying its a fake either, as Care4Data is a huge pressing company in the world, with alot of pressing plants. It isnt normal for large pressing plants like this to do short orders. And for all the naysaying, have you tried to contact Care4Data, or Hudson to ask if they requested Care4Data to make a pressing of the game?Untill you do, and present these facts here or wherever, you cant truely say they are fake.

Your opinion is not a fact, its your opinion. I gave you alot of information about disc pressing, along with Care4Datas contact info for many of their plants. Also, game press runs in Japan are much smaller then in the US, as they are space restricted, and generally try to only make what they are sure to sell, so it is actually very realistic to think that Hudson would order another small print run for the game, as the first was infact very small. Also, if the pressing plant they used to use was no longer pressing/mastering disc, making knickle stampers, and what not, then they would indeed have to use another plant. The booklet arguement is useless, because if it is by chance a second run done a couple years later, and of corse pressed by a different company, then odds are the paperwork could have been done at that press plant, or new printing equipment, from digital archived scans of the booklet info.

So the printing will look different. They will not be taken off the original press plates, as those would have been disposed of by Hudson long before. Game companies usually archive in data format, as any other method is subject to breakdown faster. Pressing plates do break down over time, as they wear out. They are not going to keep them. With any second pressing of anything, you are going to notice differences between presses. This is natural. Its really funny I am defending a pressing of  agame I dont even like, but crap, you guys ar enot providing facts, or really investigating enough. All your doing is spouting off its fake fake fake. Where are your facts?
O yea, I had 2 copies of Graduation 2 for Pc Engine. There was color differences between the 2 on the covers. The mint marks had the exact number count on the disc, but were vary different numbers, showing drasticly different time line between the 2 prints.

I cant see or imagine a huge pressing firm like Care4Data doing a small run bootleg order. It i spossible, but very unlikly overall. They would make no money off of it, as it cost manpower hours to press compact disc. Even injection molding requires a 24 hour man crew. They are not going to do this for a 1000 press run. It would have to be a larger order. It is not as cheap to press a data/music mix disc compared to a normal music cd also.
It requires more work, more testing and confirming, and quality checks, as data for programs is not as forgiving for,  lets say a game system, compared to a music track can be on any cd player. They would have to do a quality check every few hundred disc to make sure the stamper is still holding up.

Yet again, this cost money. Selling a game for 30 bucks on ebay will not make enough for a recoupe of that magnatude. Ask any pressing firm, they will surely tell you this. You just have it stuck in your head of the small cost to produce the disc plastic, and no tthe total cost to master, press, make the stamper, print paperwork and packaging, and plastic wrap, plus manpower, which these people are not cheap. Im telling you a typical bootleg run will not generate the recoup required to make the money spent back, plus profit at the price the game is being sold. Not just this, but pressing PcEngine disc require older technoligy matsering software, that almost all plants have gotten rid of in favor of new ones.

Alot of it was abandoned back in 98-2k, way befor 2k1 rolled around. Part of the reason was y2k. Alot of companies were just ditching older hardware and software if it couldnt pass a clock test. So alot of plants switched to newer stuff back by the end of 99. You are going to be hard pressed to find a pressing plant willing to drag this older equipment out of storage that is required to press Sapphire at a small bootlegg press run of 1000-2000. Ther woul dbe no money in it at all. Ask any press plany manager, they will assure you of this. Making music cds i smuch cheaper too, dont compare the cost. A music cd does not require the same press quality test as often, does not usually have a full color booklet over 10 pages, and is made in huge numbers reaching over 10, 000, thus making profit reachable since a marginal sell of the release will pay for the manufacture cost, testing, mastering, pressing, knickle plates, manpower, and so on. Funny how Im going into all this detail, and you guys have nothing equally informing to offer other then"its a fake".
Make a better arguement. Contact either Hudson, or Care 4 data. Inquire about the pressing. Tell Hudson about Care4 data, as if they ever used any othe rpress plant other then their own.
Do something more to prove your point then just spit out"its a fake".
This isnt a unreasonable request. If I can track down all the Care4 Data plants and give links on the forums here when this was originally debated, then you guys can write a few emails.

[PCEngineHell]

Amazing I spat all that out while watching Big Trouble in Little China on laserdisc.

[Emerald Rocker]

You just put forth a theory on the difficulties in pressing a mere few thousand copies of Sapphire.

So who's more likely to do such a thing:
1) Hudson, to sell each copy at around 2000 Yen each (or so) to any retailers who still sell PCE games... and to do this without telling anyone so that even Japanese people say they're fake
2) a bootlegger, who will sell copies on eBay/YJ for 40 to 60 THOUSAND Yen each, and then dump boxes' worth of remaining stock to retailers at "bargain price" (2000 Yen each)

Anyways, I just emailed Care4Data to ask about their role in officially pressing forged Sapphire copies.  I eagerly await an affirmative response.

Just kidding.

[PCEngineHell]

Actually you should email them. Why not,if you really want to know. And I think Hudson could take the cost easier then a bootlegger can. Hudson could eat the cost easy. 50,000-80,000 dollars is ass-wipe money to Hudson,but to a bootlegger,that is not a easy recoupe. That is usually way more then a bootlegger will make in a few years Im sure. Shit even 150,000 isnt much to a large company,yet to a normal small guy operationits quite a bit(and is infact how much my house cost,in which I make around 11 grand a year,and my girlfriend makes 50 grand a year,and we will prob never get it paid off anyway), if they did it to break even,which is possible. At that time they could very well have broken even or made profit,back in 98-2k. And you have to remember stuff like Dead in the Brain was being pressed still,long after the system should have been dead. And they would have had to either way make the second print run different so that you could tell. Ive never seen any second print run mimic the first exactly. It just doesnt happen. And like I also stated before,youd never in your life see a "Best of"logo on a Pc Engine title,so it would be a more discrete rerelease. Also,I odnt live in Japan,and can not confirm how many are floating about,but can confirm from some LD collectors,people I chat with from Yahoo Japan that also collect games, that they did appear in 99,and were purchased at alot of normal game stores at average game cost. These are people who collect laseractive stuff,and who I found out that Game Stock Japan had a fully decked out Laseractive for a grand,and that Game Stock is a rip off too.
It could be a fake,but it could be real. But untill your going to inquire more info from the presser,and Hudson,and present facts to support any claims of a game being a fake,present some facts first.

[Emerald Rocker]

I would be embarrassed to ask a business if they engage in criminal behavior.  You do it.

As for facts: there are lots of facts indicating it's a fake.  The timing of the release, the discrete nature of the release, and the physical differences.  Those are all facts supporting it being a bootleg.

BUT:
"In 2001, Hudson decided to re-release Sapphire when they saw it on eBay!"
"Hudson didn't advertise because they didn't have special packaging!"
"The physical differences were because of y2K, when the old machinery was thrown out, because Hudson did wait 6 years to reprint the game, after all!"

Honestly, such claims are ridiculous.  Occam's Razor is a good tool, use it.

Unsupported claims of production costs (which are probably irrelevant because either 1- it was done by someone with inside/friend connections and thus didn't cost that much, or 2- was funded by Yakuza/gang-style organizations, or 3- was privately funded by a seller who already had a surplus of money) don't prove that Hudson did it -- it just shows that wow, it actually costs money to press CD's.  People are more likely to make that money back when they charge a lot per copy, which a Hudson reprint would not do.

No one is out to "eat" any costs.  They're out to spend money and make more than they spent.

But if you want to support and defend scammers who don't sell the product as what it really is, be my guest.  The proper way to sell these games, if they're going to be sold at all, is as "bootlegs priced low so that the average PC Engine enthusiast can enjoy the game".  But calling them "alternative versions", or a "possible reprint" is a SCAM that takes advantage of people who don't know any better.

I have more respect for sellers who overcharge for genuine products than scammers who sell $60 "alternative" Sapphires, because at least the over-chargers are advertising their product honestly, leaving the decision completely in the hands of the buyer.  The scammers try to influence the decision by lying/misleading about these fakes' origins.

[PCEngineHell]

Why would you be embarrassed to ask about them doing a pressing?
And these I have been told by a few Laseractive collectors in Japan appeared back around 99,not 2k1,2k2,2k3. Youd be supprised ho wmany LD collectors actually loved the Pc-Engine,and things like that dont go unnoticed. But,I did not say Im positive its real either,and you are having a anal reaction to me simply asking you to show some real facts that lead towards it being a fake.
1. LD/PC Engine Laseractive collectors in Japan that I chat with on Yahoo have already told me that these have popped up in 99,not this last year.
2. The money being made on ebay right now is not enough to recoupe on cost,unless the largest majority is sold for the maxium amount in the fastest period. Since there are still afew here and there on ebay,I doubt this level of sale has been reached. If it was bootlegged,then I feel sorry for the saps who spent the cash to have it done,they didnt make the money back.
3. You have not contacted Care4Data,or Hudson about,to even try to prove them fake. You just "say" they are fake. That isnt really good enough. PROVE they are fake.
4. It isnt really as important to prove its real,its more important to prove its a fake,and prove the print run,and year of the pressing. The disc is just sitting there on the market,and its not going anywhere.
5. Peopel here in doubt,or feeling either way about this subject,are going to wonder untill its been "offically" confirmed. Your not a representive of Hudson or Care4Data. So you do not have the means,legal say or ability to do this.
This goes for anyone of you who say its a fake,and it also goes for me saying its real,which is why I say it could be either,and stand at that point of reason. I dont defend bootleggers either,as you just assumed. But I do support playing a game by any means given if the game is way out of print,released in a region other then the one you live in,and is not on cd-r. There is no market for it in the US for Hudson,or Germany for that matter,so why scorn anyone buying it. If your buying cd-r bootlegs,then your not buying any kind of product with any kind of quality. At least there are some bootleggers who take pride in their work,Ill give them that. If Sapphire press is a bootlegg run,its a damn good one,and its not something I could do. Till its proved to be either fake or real press,this conversation should be closed. Its a tired subject.

[Keranu]

Michael wins.

[Emerald Rocker]

When there's a simple and obvious answer (ie, "they're fake"), the burden of proof is on the person trying to state otherwise.

2.The money being made on ebay right now is not enough to recoupe on cost,unless the largest majority is sold for the maxium amount in the fastest period.Since there are still afew here and there on ebay,I doubt this level of sale has been reached.If it was bootlegged,then I feel sorry for the saps who spent the cash to have it done,they didnt make the money back.

If Hudson had really done a second pressing, then they lost a ton of money -- and lost it willingly.  That's absurd.  The original bootleggers already got their money back a long time ago.  The forgeries being sold on eBay now are second, third, or fourth-hand.  No one here is dumb enough to claim the guys selling stuff on eBay are the original bootleggers.

Anyways, they're fakes.  I'm done arguing against outlandish hypothetical scenarios.

[PCEngineHell]

A guy with 17 post and no facts to present says what I have stated is "outlandish hypothetical scenarios". Your attitude and manner sucks. I only asked for you to present some facts that you base your reasoning off of. Not my fault you couldnt do this. All you offered is the yakuza getting together with a huge multi region pressing plant company on the European side of the world to make Sapphire, or that broke ass bootleggers somehow managed to do the same, and put forth the huge cash amount required to master, produce a nickle stamp, press in the thousands, then quality package down to the plastic strip, which is in fact not cheap to do the tear away strip seals, they tack on extra cost, then manufacture alot of Hudson sealed boxes to ship them in all over Japan from Germany, or England. Yea, your right, your explanation is much more rock solid then mine.

Did you ever think it would be easier to just leak the game unslealed in used game stores, thus providing a quicker sale if that was the case? Hell man, even better, screw the yakuza, they are too busy leaving bullet trails at Squaresofts office trying to get involved in a major company, and selling guns, prostitution, and smack, I bet it could have really been ex-execs from the now defunct 3DFX graphics chip company, yea, trying to make a quick buck after the big buy out from Nvidia. No, wait, even better, it was probably George Bush in a failed attempt to claim there is a major Sapphire shortage so that prices can rise and fall every week. Since we are going to involve the Yakuza, huge European Pressing plants that I somehow doubt would do a mass run bootleg release with their name stamped all over every disc , somehow extremely rich and very clever bootleggers, of which we have never heard of until now, and mass amounts of cash that could never have been made back by now at the going price, thus causing said bootleggers to have died of starvation, as I have checked ebay sales of this game for the past 5 years now , and have not seen the required amount up for sale to make the money back as not that many have actually been sold over the years for the super high amount, nor have enough of these been sold in Japan Im sure at the high enough required amount to make the money back, I guess if we go by your system of reason and process of elimination, we can do just about anything!!!!

Im sure heavy PC Engine collectors over there could tell the difference much better than we can, as Id say they are far more qualified, and could tell the difference between a second print or fake for that matter from the original. Word would hit the street too fast there among pc engine collectors and players, thus causing the high asking amount to cease. But if the Yakuza have  aweb of fog over every PC Engine collectors mind in Japan, then maybe they pulled it off for the past few years somehow and sold almost everyone, or at least half of the supposed 2000-5000 required at over 300 us bucks. As Im sure this press plant didnt just do a small time 1000 disc press count. A knickle stamper can go to 10, 000 presses before its no good, and because of cost to do the stamper, they would not have done a 1000 press run, it would have been a waste, even if half the copies sold at 250-400 dollars each US wise, thats just not enough a profit margin. And if this is a bootleg, Like I said, it would have been recognized pretty fast as so, and not sold for that amount. That would have had to be sneaky then, moving product slowly right? Well, sure, then by the time they are dead they will have paid the manufacture cost off.
At least you didnt use the Hamburgler in your scenario.

[PCEngineHell]

Not only that but heck,why stop at Sapphire,when you could do Dracula X,or any of the other rare shooters?A few years back,Dracula X was at its peak,where as Sapphire was not,so it would have been wiser to do Dracula X.

[MotherGunner]

Not only that but heck,why stop at Sapphire,when you could do Dracula X,or any of the other rare shooters?A few years back,Dracula X was at its peak,where as Sapphire was not,so it would have been wiser to do Dracula X.

Exactly what I said.

[Emerald Rocker]

That paragraph was too long for me to read, so I didn't.

I actually did some checking around, because there was something that was really bugging me throughout this whole discussion... namely, about the supposedly prohibitive manufacturing prices.  This bugged me even more because of how common bootleg GBA games are (which I figure should cost more to manufacture).

I found out that it should only cost about $1,300 to professionally press 1000 copies of the actual CD's with color artwork on the disc.  Even doubling the price (to cover printing the color booklet and shrink-wrapping the cases), that's less than 3 grand.  Now let's double that just to be fun.

Wow, six whole grand!  If someone has an inside connection at the pressing plant, even cheaper.

So anyways, since it would actually be pretty cheap to press some nice-looking Sapphire discs, we can assume it was just one random guy.  Or maybe him and a few buddies.  So we don't really need to involve the Yakuza or other crime syndicates (although they are deeply involved in bootleg anime DVD production) -- it's safe to blame this on a group of 3 or 4 random people.  Fifteen Sapphires sold at full price, the rest dumped on retailers at $20 each... even at the lowest expectation, that's a healthy profit.  It's not hard to sell 15 fakes at full price on JAPANESE AUCTIONS.  If the others were cheap enough, they'd be easy to sell even after people realize what's going on.

For other rarities, it would take 30 to 40 sold at full value on JAPANESE AUCTIONS to recoup the cost, which really shouldn't be hard, but it still makes a little bit more sense to pick Sapphire -- it's harder to detect (being a rare game in the first place, which Drac X is not) and especially good timing considering the sudden rise in demand (due to arcade cards flooding the market).

The only question left is this: why would Japanese bootleggers go through a European company?  So maybe the bootleggers were European.  Or maybe the bootleggers were just trying to cover their tracks by using a non-local pressing plant.

[Keranu]

Michael stated a reason why they would decide to use a European presser in the original thread I posted. I'm too lazy to copy and paste and I'm sure Michael will bring it up anyways.

[PCEngineHell]

SO what is your source for the price quote for a data/audio master and a thousand presses?
Did you aks them if they are still able to press these types of disc?
Can you list a company and give contact info for this?
Id like to know, because the lowest quote I recieved from Care4Data for using the older mastering equipment and to do the smallest print run they offered was going to cost around 16, 237. 00 euros. I contacted them back when this discussion first started to find out if they still had the ability to press these types of disc, and the cost involved, which is why I know as much as I do now. I actually put the extra effort forth to do this kind of research. I gave all contact info for Care4Data also. In US bucks that is around $20. 000. And this did not include a fully decked out complete disc with full packaging.
Since I dont know of any other cd presser in the world except maybe JVC, which I know for sure will not do older type data/audio cheap, and will laugh and scoff at you for asking, your info is bunk.
Also back in 2001 I had inquired to JVC for my aunt and uncle, who are musicians,  about getting a music cd they did pressed and mastered so they could stop the cd-r crap and audio tape junk, and stop cutting wax records, cause taht blew, and if they could do cd+g and how much the cost would be, and I was given a even more expensive price quote then Care4Datas cheap one for Pc-Engine pressing.

You keep on forgetting also that to press Pc Engine/Turbo CD games you need older mastering equipment that is no longer in use by everyone else, and that by stupid luck either way Care4Data will still do them. You need proof of how costly and hard it is to obtain a  Pc Engine cd game presser in the US? Email Mindrec. Im sure they can tell you all their woes. They ran out of pressers last I heard. Otherwise dont toss about average manufacture cost for standard cd disc. They dont apply here because you are requiring more custom work then the average press plant does anymore. Turbo/Pc Engine cd are not mastered the same way, and as anyone tech wise here knows are not read the same way. Its not as easy or as cheap as bootlegging Tekken 3 for PSX in Taiwan, or lets say making a music cd. Its not done using the same methods and equipment and software. NO ONE does them anymore. Same for Jauguar CD games. No one does those by the normal method either. Your not going to win this arguement, so let it go. You are not providing any real useful info in regards to this, and your mostly just spreading your ideas and opinions, and what little facts you have offered dont apply to the PC Engine scene, like Yakuza bootlegging anime, and average cd audio cost for a crap music cd to be pressed.

[MotherGunner]

I second the verdict.  Michael wins.

[GUTS]

Michael does not win.  This arguement just shows how people want to believe in magical things in life instead of the cold hard facts.  The game is a fucking fake that Hudson was not involved with in any way, DEAL WITH IT.  Every point that the Rocker makes is glossed over and ignored in favor of outlandish bullshit claims that support that "second run" theory.  

Seriously I dont see how in any way you could believe that Hudson would do a tiny 1000 copy second run of a game that was 6 years old and not advertise to any potential buyers.  Do you guys actually think they had some employee in a YAHOO AUCTIONS division who sold them all for the company?  Jesus.  If they had actually done a second run of the game then fucking distributors would have had them in stock and places like NCSX and shit would have been selling them like hotcakes.

Also, that mindrec example has FUCK ALL to do with anything.  If there's money to be made from pirating something, then pirates will find a way to do.  Just because some goofs in the US programming crappy asteroids clones can't find someone to press Turbo CDs doesn't mean some dedicated pirates couldn't do it easily.

[PCEngineHell]

Wow, I didnt know you liked knocking one of only 2 groups still making Turbo Cd games, neither of which were all that bad for fun play. What have you released on a real pressed cd as of late Guts?Also what you and your dumass friend seem to ignore is the simple fact I dont care either way, that its all moot, because I dont like the game myself. What I really love is the fact you 2 keep getting the date wrong. It has been confirmed by a game store seller in the US already that this appeared in 99, not as of late, and yes, they did think it was a bootleg. I dont blame them. But as Im in no position to confirm or deny either way, I wont assume anything. And you 2 fuckbeads cant produce simple facts on here to defend your reasons either way it goes. Nor did I state it was a 1000 press disc run. I only quoted what a 1000 disc press would cost a couple months ago from Care 4Data. That was the quote they gave me for doing old mastering and pressing type. They are one of maybe a few in the world that still do it, this I know for a fact. I know JVC still can also, but charges way way more. Seems I have done way more foot work then either of you on this subject, all you have done is resort to bashing everyone like litle school kids because no one agrees with you. Maybe if you chilled out and presented some solid facts that didnt involve major press plants, yakuza, and broke ass bootleggers, and didnt resort to bashing when ever someone didnt agree with your "opinion" maybe youd have someone agreeing with you here. Have you not been brite enough to notice that I do in some respects agree with you?It could very possibly be a fake. I believe the axe could swing either way. I cant prove its a fake, and I cant confirm its real, but I sure did present you with some facts leaning towards being real, and gave you information to use to find out on your own. Funny how you have not been able to do the same. What are you more worried about, winning a lame arguement, or locating more information?Im in it for the information side of things, but if given a chance, I will roll with ya. Esp.  considering your bashing 2 others for just simply not agreeing with you, when you have given them no reason to in the first place. and with the manner you are acting now, your not helping your case.

[esteban]

Folks, it's time to get real.

Emerald Rocker has presented the most likely -- and most persausive -- explanation concerning these copies of Sapphire.

If you aren't swayed by Rocker's argument(s), then there is another principle that is useful in situations like this:

When in doubt, err on the side of caution (or, in this case, "skepticism").

Sorry folks, but we MUST assume that these are bootlegged copies. Michael has offered creative theories, but they are groundless, especially when compared to the well-known strategies and practices of bootlegging.

[PCEngineHell]

Someone did find Care 4 Data,and paid them alot,bootleggers or whoever. Was this not stated already? You guys are making me repeat this over and over again.
And Mindrec actually made a couple of real games for the system so far. Thats alot more then I can say for myself,and actually got someone to press them. I guess next your going to go on a Frozen Utopia bash?after all I did read somewhere they are doing a Netopia 3 right?Since your so against more of the same then your prob going to knock that too. And since your so fucking smarter then MindRec,how many press plants can you name off here that will do the press style needed to get a new game out?Since you seem to be withholding some magical special only for your eyes list of cd pressing plants that charge super cheap,and can do old style glass masters and pressing,and all for under 2 grand,do you think you can bestow upon us all this wonderful knowledge?

[PCEngineHell]

I don't really see the reason to counterfeit some 10 year old game with such precision.  I realize that some scammer could enter any collectors' market and entice those people with authentic looking "rare" stuff and make off with the cash.  However, in this case, the accuracy of the packaging and seemingly thorough attention to detail would suggest, IMO, that there was a lot of effort to reproduce this so-called fake.. perhaps more effort than it was worth to scam the market.

Anyway, it'd be nice to have Sapphire selling at lower prices and I wouldn't mind snagging one of these questionable copies.  If no one can prove it's fake, then it isn't.

[PCEngineHell]

Until Hudson says its a fake, its not. Hudson has the final say, not you, Guts or anyone of us.

[TurboHuC6280]

I doubt that Hudson will ever say *anything*.  They likely don't know, or don't even care.

This is undoubtably a fake.  A good one, but certainly fake.  I knew it when I ordered one.  Most everyone else did.  The likelyhood of Hudson reproducing a game for a niche market *in Europe* (where all of these seem to come from) is slim to none.

[PCEngineHell]

My question is this then, have any of you tried to contact Hudson Japan concerning the matter? No one here, whether skeptical or sure of it or not, can say they are real or fake for 100 percent sure until "Hudson" says one way or the other. Its their game, not ours. They are the creators,
and if you really cared to try to find out one way or the other, or at least how Hudson feels about these pressed disc floating about, why not try to send a email. Im sure if enough of you did, your most likely to get a response back. My friend never even opened either 2 of his copies,
so I never looked at the inside of them, Im just relying on the pics I have seen, and the package quality of his, but considering all my years in gaming, being in it in retail at a store where rare stuff came in daily, I never came across a bootlegg of anything done this well, which is why to me it could be either or. I will stick to that until Stevek666, Guts, or whoever can get Hudson to say otherwise.
And if you could, this would be even better for the market, because if they are fakes, and you could properly publicly expose this by getting Hudson to confirm this, then the price of these on ebay will prob drop next to nill, where they should be, if indeed Hudson will declare them as fakes.
You just stating they are fakes isn't good enough for the vast majority of buyers and collectors out there. Most people are probably going to assume they are real until it is confirmed by a reliable source that they infact are not. This source will need to be Hudson.
Also, most all of my pressing information is not theory. its all fact, and took alot of time to research. I in no way considered it a waste, because I get to slap it in there with the ld pressing information I gathered, which is really why I contacted Care4Data to begin with. I had wanted to know if they did at one time or still had the ability to do LD pressing, or the smaller ld technology, CD-Video, which is not to be confused with video-cd.
I usually dont ever go opening my mouth until I get something information wise from someone first, a company, respected resource, and so on. I do not see any of you doing the same. You stated a argument involving the yakuza, a major pressing plant, and bootleggers, which Id like you to do this, show some more fakes on here of this level of quality, Id really like to see them. The above is a theory, and not known for 100 percent sure. What Id also like to know is why none of you have tried to contact Hudson over it to really find out?Also, these first started appearing in Japan in 99 I am told by some laseractive collectors I chat with, and back then when they did, Hudson was not confirming or denying them one way or the other.

[PCEngineHell]

I doubt that Hudson will ever say *anything*.  They likely don't know, or don't even care.

This is undoubtably a fake.  A good one, but certainly fake.  I knew it when I ordered one.  Most everyone else did.  The likelyhood of Hudson reproducing a game for a niche market *in Europe* (where all of these seem to come from) is slim to none.

Its funny you should say that,and my reply to it is this,Hudson would indeed do so if they no longer used,had running their own pressing equipment.
Also Laserdisc was a niche market,1 million owners compared to 16 million vcr owners,yet laserdisc were comonally manufactured in Eruopean pressing plants,and in Japan,even though we had full capability in the US to make them.Thi sis also the case with music cds.If you actually cared to start tracking your mint mark info down,you will find depending on what kind of music you listen to,that alot of your music cds will be pressed outside of the US,or in the US,depending on where you live,even though in about every region of the world there is a Pressing plant of some kind with the ability to at least do music cd and DVD 9.

[PCEngineHell]

Also,these didnt appear in Europe first in 99.They only just started appearing in Europe this last year.Japan was the first known area of sale,and from what it seems the US is second.SO these Sapphires,real or not,were not created for the niche market of Europe,where the amount of owners with arcade cards are probably not that high in number.

[Keranu]

I still have to give the hand to Michael mainly because he has listed more facts than Rocker overall and with lots of good facts, even though Rocker's single fact was a very good one. The thing is, we can't believe if Hudson would do this ir not BUT we can't also just be ignorant and post "The game is a fucking fake that Hudson was not involved with in any way, DEAL WITH IT." because we still don't have evidence proving that it's not related with Hudson in anyway or have the officially bootlegger(s) openly admit it.

I should also post I have a very open mind and have fairly strong belief in such things as aliens (yes in the way they are described among most abudctees, like with the "greys") and ghosts (My house is haunted and I actually believed I saw one once ). I'm not a psycho believer though, I make sure there are enough facts for me to believe in cases such as these because I do a lot of research on them, but I'm clearly not a skeptic because skeptics generally tend to be assholes and I still leave my mind very open.

[GUTS]

The only person arguing in favor of these being "second runs" is a guy who can't even put a space after his periods or sum his thoughts up in one post.  Rocker is coming out on top in this arguement since his points actually make sense in the real world and not fantasy land where huge video games companies make teensy second prints of 6 year old games for miniscule profits and not tell anybody in the entire world.  

The simplest explanation is usually always right (that these are pirated copies), theories like Mr NoSpaceAfteraPeriod's only exist in entertainment, not in reality.  People have been watching too much X-Files and shit like that, they'll believe any hackneyed bullshit that comes along if it seems cool instead of looking at stuff realistically.

[pixeljunkie]

Haven't been here in a while...can't believe this is still a topic of discussion. I can't fathom anyone believing these are anything other than bootlegs.

I bought one, its so obvious looking at it its not even funny.

[esteban]

Rocker has said this already, but it bears repeating:

In the real world, we must assume that this is a bootleg.

The burden of proof rests upon those who insist that this isn't a bootleg.
---------------

Here's a great question (or two) to ask yourself:

Do we have any concrete examples of official second (or "alternate" "throw-away") pressings using non-standard materials?

Of these, how many were done by Hudson Soft of Japan?
---------------

The historical record provides overwhelming evidence that piracy -- not official pressings -- account for "curiousities" such as Sapphire.

This thread has gone from "hopeful wishing" to "utter absurdity" ... logic and reason require us to ASSUME that these are bootlegs, until proven otherwise. That is the most prudent course of action.

BONUS: The Turbo community dealt with piracy before (TurboList!), and they alerted folks about the bootleg to minimize the number of Turbo fans who would be ripped off.

[Fudoh]

In the real world, we must assume that this is a bootleg.

of course we should assume this !

Besides this I wonder if there's a point to the discussion going on here for the past week ? I guess not...

About contacting Hudson. Of course I tried to contact them. Below is my attempt from 2001 (in which I forwarded the game to them). And I tried again in 2004 by email with about the same "interest" shown by them (which is none).



And concerning their availability in stores in Tokyo: in early august this year Trader and Medialand in Akihabara had these in stock. Trader only had this version (50.000yen used) and Medialand had both - actually on the same shelf (original used for 45.000, this version new for 60.000yen).

They simply don't care about it.

PS: I've gotten ahold of another (most obvious bootlegged) version of Sapphire. Maybe I'll post some images sometime soon.

[Keranu]

Thanks for the post Fudoh! This certainly adds more to the discussion! However even though I am a believer of your story and Michael's facts, I have to be a damn skeptic here and comment that the image of the letter you posted almost looks like it was faked. I don't really know what it is, I think it might have to do with how the text and images look like they were added to a scan of a old, somewhat worn paper used with a computer program like Photoshop. It could possibly be because there are lightness and darkness differences on the paper, but not quite with the text and the images , also the creasing on the paper doesn't seem to effect the text or pictures really. I'm not saying this is a fake, but I'm just bringing points up to how it could be. Hopefully I can take your word on this. Looks like we need the detectives to solve this by doing tests on that piece of paper to see how old it is and where it came from .

[PCEngineHell]

I know it seems silly Fudoh,but can you do a larger scan of this letter?I understand some scanners and copiers will focus on the text and printed image and pick that up really good if the laser is great,and give a funny effect in the process not caring about creases,but in order to show this thing better it needs to be inlarged,maybe it can be on a link to your webpage if you have one or something so that we can get a closer look?I know its hard to get large size shoing here real well.Esp for XP users who can only go as large as 800-600.

[PCEngineHell]

And maybe Ill give Guts period breaks too, maybe, and maybe Ill find religion. Well, n/m, thats doubtful. Seems not many had too hard a time reading any of my post anyway, seems your just doing asshole nitpicking to keep an argument going, breaking from one argument to another.

[Fudoh]

Here's a larger version:



The paper actually doesn't look very old, it's just a weird yellow tone which my scanner tries to eliminate in the first place...

Maybe it looks better in b/w...

pms.hazard-city.de/letter_top.jpg

Or like this:

pms.hazard-city.de/letter.jpg

lol, any particular photo you'd like ;) ? Maybe today's paper alongside with it ? (don't you dare....)

[TurboHuC6280]

Haven't been here in a while...can't believe this is still a topic of discussion. I can't fathom anyone believing these are anything other than bootlegs.

I bought one, its so obvious looking at it its not even funny.

Heh.  I've been away for a month or two as well.  Hard to believe that a topic I started *months* ago is still going on.  

Hey. I'm just happy that I am able to play a game I'd likely not otherwise be able to play (downloading pirated copies with inferior lossy audio aside).

[TurboHuC6280]

Here's a larger version:



The paper actually doesn't look very old, it's just a weird yellow tone which my scanner tries to eliminate in the first place...

Maybe it looks better in b/w... /letter_top.jpg

Or like this: /letter.jpg

lol, any particular photo you'd like ;) ? Maybe today's paper alongside with it ? (don't you dare....)

Wow.  Very interesting!

Nice to see that you're still following this thread.  By the way...  I'm still very happy about my Sapphire purchase. 

[Fudoh]

Nice to see that you're still following this thread.

I actually wasn't, but somebody inquired about a game and mentioned that the thread was quite active, so I checked it again.

There are some people on the board with a lot a free-time and no hobbies I guess ;)

[PCEngineHell]

I sent a email to Hudson Japan today,including  the scan of the letter you supplied.Hopefully they will reply back and give comment on this whole thing,but if not its no real loss either way.

[PCEngineHell]

The last pic looks pretty real to me. Im satisified,but Im sure others like Guts wont be. So maybe Ill get a email back from Hudson,and well see.
Thanks!
BTW I do have hobbies,laserdisc collecting,ranting on here,and being with my kids,and gaming. If I didnt have hobbies,I wouldnt rant on pcenginefx.

[PCEngineHell]

Actually thinking about it,can you place the letter upright,and stack hucards around it ,and add some US soldiers posing with big stupid grins?
That would be great and probably prove to Guts its real.