Lunar Silver Star intro totally rips off Ys'

BEERS AND VIDEOS · 03/30/2011, 12:00 PM

I've heard so many great things about Lunar, and have tried to play it a few times on the Sega CD. But two things make me cringe and I can't get into it.

First, the vocals on the opening song are just embarrassing ("all through the night...."). It sounds so lame. The second is what a rip off the intro is. You can tell they used the Ys intro as a template (storming clouds lightening to start, red eyes then lighting that exposes monsters, etc). Check it out and see what you think.

I guess I'm wondering if I should give the game more of a chance. What do you think?

TurboXray · 03/30/2011, 12:12 PM

Actually, some of the cinemas 'frames' seemed to be copied from other Japanese anime and manga. Armen had some really interesting comparisons. Don't remember the link. He should chime in and post.

OldRover · 03/30/2011, 12:19 PM

The game itself is a masterpiece despite the obvious Ys ripoff in the intro and Vic's lame-ass opening song.

However... the original Japanese opening song is EVEN WORSE, so the US version isn't terrible in comparison.

DragonmasterDan · 03/30/2011, 01:02 PM

Quote from: BEERS AND VIDEOS on 03/30/2011, 12:00 PMI've heard so many great things about Lunar, and have tried to play it a few times on the Sega CD. But two things make me cringe and I can't get into it.

First, the vocals on the opening song are just embarrassing ("all through the night...."). It sounds so lame. The second is what a rip off the intro is. You can tell they used the Ys intro as a template (storming clouds lightening to start, red eyes then lighting that exposes monsters, etc). Check it out and see what you think.

I guess I'm wondering if I should give the game more of a chance. What do you think?

As others mentioned, a lot of those shots from the intro are/were anime cliches.

Secondly, ABSOLUTELY give the game more of a chance. It's fantastic!

CrackTiger · 03/30/2011, 06:42 PM

Yeah, most anime style CD games used anime cliches. I can't post a link at the moment, but there is a video on youtube that is "every anime intro".

BEERS' -give Lunar SS a chance, but even if you don't like it, make sure to still give Lunar EB a chance. Lunar SS was overly ambitious and wasn't quite finished when it finally shipped. Lunar EB is much more polished.

BEERS AND VIDEOS · 03/30/2011, 06:59 PM

I will definitely give it another shot. The fact that all you guys, being PC Engine / Turbo fans, endorse it makes me really want to give it another stab.

Arkhan Asylum · 03/30/2011, 07:11 PM

Thats not a ripoff of Ys.

That is just standard Anime theatrics. There are so many shows with scenes like this, that its not even worth trying to count. You will get bored.
Sailor Moon does it!

Lunar, in every form (except the GBA one. That one was gimpy), is a-fucking-mazing. You should definitely play the hell out of them.

Arm · 03/30/2011, 07:16 PM

"Actually, some of the cinemas 'frames' seemed to be copied from other Japanese anime and manga. Armen had some really interesting comparisons. Don't remember the link. He should chime in and post."

The creator of the original Lunar is Kazunari Tomi, who had worked for Nihon Falcom, on Ys and Sorcerian in the mid 80's, before creating Studio Alex with Kei Shigema.
Shigema had connections with the animation company Gainax. That's how I think they decided to hire Toshiyuki Kubooka as character designer (who was an animator on the series Nadia the secret of Blue Water or the movie Royal Space Force.)
Gainax was an animation company who also produced video games like the Princess Maker series, Gotzendiener (with studio Alex) or Alisia Dragoon (with GameArts).

Tomi having worked for Falcom, this can explain why there are elements in the opening of Lunar which are close to the opening of Ys like the camera shot with the monsters panning up to DarkFact/Ghaleon. There are also several shots which are almost carbon copies of scenes found in the opening of the anime Zillion.

The flying city of Vane in Lunar is also reminiscent of the floating city found in Ys. All this flying continent thing found in jrpgs since the 80's have been inspired by the anime movie Laputa made by Miyazaki. The same thing can be said for the airships found in almost every japanese RPG.
Also, the chocobos found in the FFs, were inspired by creatures found in Nausicaa.

But for the reference of Ys found in Lunar, it goes even further. Adol is actually in the game at the spring of transmission. In the original japanese version, theres a lonely character who isn't named, but who tells you he's a wanderer and that he had already seen during his past adventures a flying city like Vane but doesn't remember where it was.

/tssj087.gif/

In the US version, there's no reference to this, and the character appears like some kind of idiot who asks about how many licks it does take to get to the center of a tootsie roll pop (?)

Arkhan Asylum · 03/30/2011, 07:32 PM

thats good ol WD humor for you.

Arm · 03/30/2011, 07:56 PM

I wonder if Victor Ireland had noticed the reference to Ys or just decided to add a touch of humor thinking that nobody at the time would have understood the hidden allusion to that game.

Arkhan Asylum · 03/30/2011, 09:22 PM

He probably removed it thinking noone would understand the reference.

At the time, Ys didn't really break into the American world so great.

We had the SMS and the TGCD ones... and both of those systems were "obscure".

CrackTiger · 03/30/2011, 09:46 PM

This pretty much sums up the originality of anime-

Adol hanging out in Lunar might be inspired by Kazunari Tomi having worked with Falcom and Ys, but I don't think that the similarities of the Lunar intro have anything to do with it.

The Dark Fact shot and the rest of the PCE intro is the work of Hudson Soft and never appeared in any of Falcom's productions. Even the Ys cinemas were likely a collection of cliches by that point.

I don't think that Working Designs actually attempted to translate anything but strictly game moving dialogue. Adol's text was likely just replaced with random filler like all non-important npcs in WD games.

Arkhan Asylum · 03/30/2011, 10:05 PM

Working Designs pioneered the translation concept, even though they kind of did some stupid shit sometimes.

some of the jokes were funny, others were like "what the hell"

thrush · 03/30/2011, 11:17 PM

Just my 2 cents:

I played Lunar back in the day and loved it, but tried playing the PSX version a few years ago & found it less thrilling than my memories suggested. Still enjoyable, but there were places where it felt like it could so easily have been so much more.... Maybe it was the update/port that wasn't quite up to snuff but I think some of what was impressive then just doesn't have the same effect now. For example, regardless of lyrical content or quality simply having an opening vocal track was a big deal for a video game in the early '90s.

I do think it's a great game & well worth playing, just that it hasn't aged as well as some others. (As a point of comparison, I think Phantasy Star 1 is much more enjoyable now than Final Fantasy 1, though I would have said the opposite in 1988. And Ys, to my mind, is probably better than both. ^_-)

ParanoiaDragon · 03/31/2011, 12:04 AM

Quote from: Arm on 03/30/2011, 07:56 PMI wonder if Victor Ireland had noticed the reference to Ys or just decided to add a touch of humor thinking that nobody at the time would have understood the hidden allusion to that game.

Well, I do know there was a Last Alert reference in the US PS1 version of Lunar in Meribia(maybe it was EB?). It's been awhile, but I recall it mentioning Guy Kazama & Chairman Steve being too "stingy"

So, if he would reference Last Alert, it's hard for me to imagine him purposely changing Adol in the original Lunar to say something stupid. But, that still pisses me off, I can't believe that was taken out of the US version!

OldRover · 03/31/2011, 01:18 AM

thrush, the Playstation version is nothing like the original Sega CD version. It's like they took the base concept of the game and constructed an entirely new game on top of it... and unfortunately, it sucked.

As for the Lunar/Ys deliberate ripoff... it's blatantly obvious that almost everything in the Lunar intro was directly taken from Ys. Sure, all of it is "anime standard stuff", but the number of "similarities" is too great to be coincidence or "inspired". Hell, they even copied the fade style of the portrait sprites.

spenoza · 03/31/2011, 01:32 AM

Most of what was in the Ys intro was probably borrowed from something before it. As with any close-knit community of professionals, stealing is homage (to an extent).

Arm · 03/31/2011, 05:26 AM

It's true the opening shot with the monsters wasn't in the original Ys game, but I think it is clearly inspired by the turbo opening. (nothing wrong with that)

What I mean is that having worked for Falcom, Tomi took some elements as a reference or inspiration, or even wanted maybe to make a tribute.

I guess the intro was storyboarded by kubooka, but I guess we'll never know that for sure.

For Zillion, several scenes in Lunar are carbon copies of scenes of the Op (like the birds flying, the lightning, the 3 characters running together) I'm not criticizing, it's just an observation.

What inspired myriads of openings for anime or games (like Lunar) Conan the future boy Op (by Miyazaki in 1978)

DragonmasterDan · 03/31/2011, 05:43 AM

Quote from: thrush on 03/30/2011, 11:17 PMJust my 2 cents:

I played Lunar back in the day and loved it, but tried playing the PSX version a few years ago & found it less thrilling than my memories suggested. Still enjoyable, but there were places where it felt like it could so easily have been so much more.... Maybe it was the update/port that wasn't quite up to snuff but I think some of what was impressive then just doesn't have the same effect now. For example, regardless of lyrical content or quality simply having an opening vocal track was a big deal for a video game in the early '90s.

I do think it's a great game & well worth playing, just that it hasn't aged as well as some others. (As a point of comparison, I think Phantasy Star 1 is much more enjoyable now than Final Fantasy 1, though I would have said the opposite in 1988. And Ys, to my mind, is probably better than both. ^_-)

The Playstation version of Lunar 1 is widely regarded as inferior to the Sega CD version by fans of the series.

RR1980 · 03/31/2011, 05:53 AM

maybe a little out of topic but another video game and anime connection: The gun used in Zillion is the same gun used for the Sega Master System. Supposedly it was some kinda cross promotion planned bwteen Sega and the studio.

spenoza · 03/31/2011, 02:45 PM

Hey, if someone has the means to do a side-by-side or scene-by-scene comparison video I'd like to see it. I think this could be an interesting exercise, like Disney re-using their own old animation.

Arkhan Asylum · 03/31/2011, 08:51 PM

Yeah, but alot of this stuff is either standard Anime stuff, (kind of like how bitches and hoes are standard rap CONMENTES), and, there are only so many ways to do cool ass fades and shit on old systems.

It all ripped of Captain Harlock. Thats what I say.

thrush · 03/31/2011, 10:00 PM

Quote from: OldRover on 03/31/2011, 01:18 AMthrush, the Playstation version is nothing like the original Sega CD version. It's like they took the base concept of the game and constructed an entirely new game on top of it... and unfortunately, it sucked.

I guess it has been longer than I thought for me since those days!

ParanoiaDragon · 04/01/2011, 12:17 AM

Quote from: DragonmasterDan on 03/31/2011, 05:43 AM
Quote from: thrush on 03/30/2011, 11:17 PMJust my 2 cents:

I played Lunar back in the day and loved it, but tried playing the PSX version a few years ago & found it less thrilling than my memories suggested. Still enjoyable, but there were places where it felt like it could so easily have been so much more.... Maybe it was the update/port that wasn't quite up to snuff but I think some of what was impressive then just doesn't have the same effect now. For example, regardless of lyrical content or quality simply having an opening vocal track was a big deal for a video game in the early '90s.

I do think it's a great game & well worth playing, just that it hasn't aged as well as some others. (As a point of comparison, I think Phantasy Star 1 is much more enjoyable now than Final Fantasy 1, though I would have said the opposite in 1988. And Ys, to my mind, is probably better than both. ^_-)
The Playstation version of Lunar 1 is widely regarded as inferior to the Sega CD version by fans of the series.

I'm one of those guys whose first Lunar was the PS1 version, & I love it to pieces compared to the Sega CD version, I'll assume it has more to do with what's been changed, rather then what is or isn't better perse.

CrackTiger · 04/01/2011, 12:32 AM

Quote from: guest on 03/31/2011, 02:45 PMHey, if someone has the means to do a side-by-side or scene-by-scene comparison video I'd like to see it. I think this could be an interesting exercise, like Disney re-using their own old animation.

Here ya go!

QuoteI'm one of those guys whose first Lunar was the PS1 version, & I love it to pieces compared to the Sega CD version, I'll assume it has more to do with what's been changed, rather then what is or isn't better perse.

I prefer the Saturn Lunar SSS' and the Sega/Mega-CD Lunar EB. To me, the combined games make up the overall story/experience. I didn't like the GBA Lunar though and haven't tried any new Lunars since.

spenoza · 04/01/2011, 12:57 AM

BT, thanks for the comparison! As a long-time watcher of anime, I am unconvinced by that comparison that Lunar rips off Ys. Those low-animation cinemas were in their early stages when Ys came out, but some techniques had already been tried on disk-based games on computer systems. The posing and juxtaposition are pretty stock styles in anime and manga in general, as well as the reduced animation tricks. That said, I think it's pretty clear that the Lunar intro does pay a certain respect to Ys. I certainly wouldn't call it a copy or a rip-off, though.

OldRover · 04/01/2011, 01:13 AM

Major differences between the Sega CD version and the PS1 version:

-Characters who fall in battle do not gain XP in the Sega CD version, but do in the PS1 version.... and for a very dumb reason which will be alluded to shortly.
-All bosses in the PS1 version are level-adjusted, eliminating one of the major reasons for level-grinding... gaining power. You suddenly become powerless no matter how strong you are because the boss stats are adjusted to your own. MAJOR STUPID MOVE and the reason for the "automatic revive" if a character falls in battle.
-The Sega CD version had a relatively simplistic story that was entertaining and whimsical. The PS1 version's story was contrived and stupid.
-Mia, who is the epitome of magical asskicking in the Sega CD version, is reduced to a two-bit cantrip-caster in the PS1 version. She's so pathetic that you just want to leave her at home.
-The Sega CD had a semblance of battle strategy... by fighting wisely, you could avoid damage a LOT. In the PS1 version, all potential strategy is gone, and you're healing after EVERY BATTLE no matter how pussified your enemies are.
-Character development, which was relatively weak in the Sega CD version, is completely overdone in the PS1 version. This contributes to said contrived and stupid story. It just comes off as campy and shallow... someone tried too hard to give some message and it ended up as the blatantly obvious.

There are many other differences but these are just the ones I'm awake enough to remember.

Arm · 04/01/2011, 03:44 AM

You can see similarities concerning the layout of certain scenes : the lightning in the beginning followed by the face of the character, the pink birds flying (cam close up) or the 3 characters running together.

Zillion Op

Lunar Op

It all ripped of Captain Harlock. Thats what I say.

You mean Alex takes off and leaves earth aboard the Arcadia ?

DragonmasterDan · 04/01/2011, 05:52 AM

Quote from: OldRover on 04/01/2011, 01:13 AMMajor differences between the Sega CD version and the PS1 version:

-Characters who fall in battle do not gain XP in the Sega CD version, but do in the PS1 version.... and for a very dumb reason which will be alluded to shortly.
-All bosses in the PS1 version are level-adjusted, eliminating one of the major reasons for level-grinding... gaining power. You suddenly become powerless no matter how strong you are because the boss stats are adjusted to your own. MAJOR STUPID MOVE and the reason for the "automatic revive" if a character falls in battle.
-The Sega CD version had a relatively simplistic story that was entertaining and whimsical. The PS1 version's story was contrived and stupid.
-Mia, who is the epitome of magical asskicking in the Sega CD version, is reduced to a two-bit cantrip-caster in the PS1 version. She's so pathetic that you just want to leave her at home.
-The Sega CD had a semblance of battle strategy... by fighting wisely, you could avoid damage a LOT. In the PS1 version, all potential strategy is gone, and you're healing after EVERY BATTLE no matter how pussified your enemies are.
-Character development, which was relatively weak in the Sega CD version, is completely overdone in the PS1 version. This contributes to said contrived and stupid story. It just comes off as campy and shallow... someone tried too hard to give some message and it ended up as the blatantly obvious.

There are many other differences but these are just the ones I'm awake enough to remember.

I could go on a huge rant about story related changes, and plot holes that arise in the remakes due to changes to the story. But that would include too many spoilers.

Arkhan Asylum · 04/01/2011, 08:15 PM

Quote-All bosses in the PS1 version are level-adjusted, eliminating one of the major reasons for level-grinding... gaining power. You suddenly become powerless no matter how strong you are because the boss stats are adjusted to your own. MAJOR STUPID MOVE and the reason for the "automatic revive" if a character falls in battle.

There is a point for each boss where you are either too weak due to the level adjusting, a point where its a moderate challenge, and a point where the boss is a frigging joke. Eventually, your own level advancement overtakes the math involved with adjusting bosses. I once grinded to 99 on everyone, and the magic emperor was a joke.

Quote-The Sega CD had a semblance of battle strategy... by fighting wisely, you could avoid damage a LOT. In the PS1 version, all potential strategy is gone, and you're healing after EVERY BATTLE no matter how pussified your enemies are.

???? Wat

Keranu · 04/01/2011, 08:20 PM

BEERS AND VIDEOS, our mind waves must've crossed paths at some point because just two or three nights ago I had randomly tried out my Lunar CD to test an emulator and as I was watching the intro I totally realized how similar it was to Ys! I was even thinking about making a video or page showing the similarities!

BEERS AND VIDEOS · 04/01/2011, 10:01 PM

Quote from: Keranu on 04/01/2011, 08:20 PMBEERS AND VIDEOS, our mind waves must've crossed paths at some point because just two or three nights ago I had randomly tried out my Lunar CD to test an emulator and as I was watching the intro I totally realized how similar it was to Ys! I was even thinking about making a video or page showing the similarities!

Great minds think alike? That's pretty funny.

I get that a lot of the imagery is derivative of a lot of standard anime art direction, but I've never seen so many similarities in an intro - almost scene by scene. Not to say that paying homage to Ys is a bad thing...

That being said, I do need to give Lunar another shot.

ParanoiaDragon · 04/01/2011, 11:39 PM

QuoteI'm one of those guys whose first Lunar was the PS1 version, & I love it to pieces compared to the Sega CD version, I'll assume it has more to do with what's been changed, rather then what is or isn't better perse.

I prefer the Saturn Lunar SSS' and the Sega/Mega-CD Lunar EB. To me, the combined games make up the overall story/experience. I didn't like the GBA Lunar though and haven't tried any new Lunars since.[/quote]
I used to have the GBA Lunar & couldn't stand it, so I sold it. I have the PSP Lunar, it's decent, though, I still prefer the PS1 version.

As for what Nod said about the adjusting of bosses in the PS1 game, that is deffinitly one thing I've never liked, so I deffinitly agree on that!

Lunar Silver Star intro totally rips off Ys'

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