Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE

SignOfZeta · May 17, 2011, 01:15:43 PM

Quote from: fragmare on May 17, 2011, 03:59:37 AMWhere do you even BEGIN to list the PCE/TG16's missed opportunities??? There are so many! As was mentioned previously in this thread, the SuperGrafx in and of itself a was a HUGE missed opportunity. Maybe not in Japan. That thing was going to fail there, no matter what. But if they'd have delayed the US release a few months and released the SGX here in the US with, say, 50+ quality PCE games, the western market (for the most part) wouldn't have even known any better that it was derived from inferior hardware. Then you'd have a situation where the PCE was still getting plenty of support in Japan and the SGX would have been getting support in the west, similar to the Genesis (assuming NEC America would have marketed the thing properly, which is an awfully big assumption).

With 50+ quality SGX games, yes, it very well could have been a success in America, but where do you get the 50+ million dollars to make such stuff? The weirdly huge success of the Genesis in the US happened with a library that was *heavily* US influenced. The EA sports stuff and MK with a lot of Sonic...and quite a few of the Sonic games were US developed.

Its not really a "missed opourtunity" if it could only happen in a parallel universe, at that point its just a fantasy.

Two things make this impossible 1) where the hell are those 50 games going to come from when even the Japanese only had 6, and they were not even slightly impressive 2) Americans are cheap-asses and the Japanese, especially back then, will buy almost any gadget you throw at them. If they didn't buy the SGX nobody would.

BTW, I am SO glad that never happened. I would have loved to see the TG16 succeed by being what it was, but having it transformed into a sleezy Football/Mortal Kombat machine. Oh lord. Good taste is a hurdle to be leaped, not limboed under!

OldRover · May 17, 2011, 01:22:17 PM

As far as I know, adding the SGX via the expansion port was in fact possible to do. Adding it via the hucard slot might not have been doable though. I think it was Charles who proposed a method of doing it via the expansion port... since the expansion port is apparently directly connected to all the relevant hardware. Of course, there's other things you could do with the hucard port... you could add additional RAM (doesn't Populous do this?), additional CPUs (we were talking on IRC awhile back about adding a V810), sound circuitry (though it'd be monaural), etc... the hucard port offers a lot of the capability of the expansion port, just not everything.

SignOfZeta · May 17, 2011, 01:43:08 PM

Quote from: RR1980 on May 17, 2011, 04:05:46 AMwow MK as a PCE exclusive? That would have been a seriously game changer! They thought fighters were on their way out and yet they did all those neo geo fighter port? How wrong were they considering that the fighters genre only got bigger and bigger in the following decade!

Well, at best the MK deal would have been a nice foot in the door, but there is a good chance that it wouldn't have made them any money. MK eventually came out on five systems, for Midway/Aklaim/whoever to have made the kind of money they wanted to, the exclusivity fee for NEC would have had to have been HUGE, probably a money loser in itself even if the system really did take off, and there is plenty of reason to suspect that it would't have. Players already would have had to buy a new system but also two new controllers to have enough buttons, but also a multitap. Most MK players are extremely casual and aren't going to drop that kind of bread.

Also, the Mk1 fad brought huge numbers to the Genesis platform for years on, but that was due to other factors. More people already had Genesis, the Genesis was already famous for having better sports games, the Genesis had Sonic. The MK thing really piggybacked on top of that...and it was fragile hype, even then. Only MK1 was better on Genesis, after that the SNES version had all the gory shit the arcade and Genesis versions had. It was too late by that point though and the far uglier Genesis versions stayed the standard because...I think MK fans can't read, maybe?

The hoard of SNK fighters that were eventually released in Japan weren't part of an expensive exclusivity deal. Also, and this isn't mentioned, they were Japanese games. No circa 1992 Japanese executive would have made that MK deal if even it wasn't fiscal suicide. MK doesn't sell in Japan. Its oiled up white trash muscle men ripping each others intensities out. Its (barely) interactive snuff porn, as far removed from Fatal Fury as it from Faces of Death: The Game.

FraGMarE · May 17, 2011, 05:08:26 PM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on May 17, 2011, 01:15:43 PM
Quote from: fragmare on May 17, 2011, 03:59:37 AMWhere do you even BEGIN to list the PCE/TG16's missed opportunities??? There are so many! As was mentioned previously in this thread, the SuperGrafx in and of itself a was a HUGE missed opportunity. Maybe not in Japan. That thing was going to fail there, no matter what. But if they'd have delayed the US release a few months and released the SGX here in the US with, say, 50+ quality PCE games, the western market (for the most part) wouldn't have even known any better that it was derived from inferior hardware. Then you'd have a situation where the PCE was still getting plenty of support in Japan and the SGX would have been getting support in the west, similar to the Genesis (assuming NEC America would have marketed the thing properly, which is an awfully big assumption).
With 50+ quality SGX games, yes, it very well could have been a success in America, but where do you get the 50+ million dollars to make such stuff? The weirdly huge success of the Genesis in the US happened with a library that was *heavily* US influenced. The EA sports stuff and MK with a lot of Sonic...and quite a few of the Sonic games were US developed.

Its not really a "missed opourtunity" if it could only happen in a parallel universe, at that point its just a fantasy.

Two things make this impossible 1) where the hell are those 50 games going to come from when even the Japanese only had 6, and they were not even slightly impressive 2) Americans are cheap-asses and the Japanese, especially back then, will buy almost any gadget you throw at them. If they didn't buy the SGX nobody would.

BTW, I am SO glad that never happened. I would have loved to see the TG16 succeed by being what it was, but having it transformed into a sleezy Football/Mortal Kombat machine. Oh lord. Good taste is a hurdle to be leaped, not limboed under!

I wasn't talking about 50+ newly developed SGX games. I was talking about releasing the SGX in the US with 50+ ALREADY EXISTING PCE games, at launch. The average US consumer, at the time, wouldn't have known any different that those games were developed in Japan for a slightly inferior system. All people would have known here is that a system was launching with 50 or even 100 killer games, right out of the gate, and they meant business. Oh, and BTW, i'm not talking about the ubiquitous bullshit software that trickled into the US market for the first year. Think about all the Jp HuCards that were released by 1990 that you'd rate at 7+ out of 10. Consider ALL those games being available at launch in the US. Now THAT'S a strong system launch.

As for the system being an MK/sports machine, you're missing my point. If games like MK and Madden had reached the US market, it would have contributed GREATLY to the success of the system in the west, and you'd have seen much better third party support for the system (because it would have been far more popular and had a larger user base). Perhaps, then you'd have seen more things Contra, Final Fight, Rocket Knight, Gunstar Heroes, etc., not to mention English translations of all the games that never reached US shores, but should have (Dracula X, Gradius, Gradius II, Salamander, SF2' CE...)

ccovell · May 17, 2011, 06:02:22 PM

Quote from: RR1980 on May 17, 2011, 01:35:32 AMMy guess is that NEC probably didn't anticipate the success of the PC Engine so they had the SGX in development to replace the PC Engine right from the get go but came time to release it 2 yrs later they were kinda caught in the middle since much resources already went into developing this thing...

The SGX was announced as a cynical way to defuse the pressure on the PCE by the upcoming Super Famicom, and newly-released Mega Drive. It was a rush job in reaction to these newer, superior systems that had 2 background planes and other hyped features. It looks like NEC made Hudson slap together an update as fast as possible with little regard to advancing the technology, really. The SGX is so similar technically to the PCE that it didn't take many resources at all to design the thing. Now the Power Console attachment, that's another story...

Just like systems such as the Apple III (and 32X), the SGX was "designed" by corporate.

awack · May 17, 2011, 06:19:34 PM

As people have suggested, the biggest lost opportunity was not having an over hyped, crap game, like MK or DKC.

I agree with fragmare..more of these games(and sports) would have meant more of the less popular but better games. I'm personally glad that didn't happen, it might have meant hundreds of sports games and generic platformers, at the cost of being the best system for shooters....and as turns out, shmups hold up a hell of allot better than most platformers and all sports titles.

OldMan · May 18, 2011, 12:35:52 AM

Quotehaving more VRAM and main RAM available~~could~~ would have been a very good thing.

Yeah, with more VRAM, we could load a bigger BAT and more graphics to boot. Larger screen, better animation on larger characters. <sigh> More main memory would allow tracking more objects, and probably better AI for objects.
What could have been......

TurboXray · May 18, 2011, 10:09:59 AM

Missed opportunities....

There are a ton, hardware wise. We know from articles and interviews that the PC-Engine itself was always destined for more than what it was released as. The PCE by itself was nick named the 'core' system. The CD addon was in development and show cased even before the system was officially released. But onto specifics.

- Lack of adequate core ram. More than just speculation, it's believed that the PCE original was developed with 32k of ram in mind, but only shipped with 8k. The upper 24k is just the 8k mirrored, not open bus. Fittingly, the SGX actually populates this mirrored ram with the additional 24k to make the original 32k ram. 8k of ram is limiting. It limits the type of compression schemes you can use. It limits caching decompressed data for later parts of levels (instead of doing it real time).

- The cut back of vram to 64k. The VDC has full access to 128k of vram. The arcade Bloody Wolf which is basically just a PCE without a VCE, has that full 128k. It has all the player and enemy frames loaded in. Having larger vram space also means you can use better compression schemes and cache the frames into vram (like you would normal ram). I would have put more emphasis on this than regular system ram. Especially when you consider the CD addon original only gave 64k of work ram (simulated cart rom).

- The lack of any second BG layer. Scrollable or fixed overlay/underlay. The PCE is setup to have a digital pixel bus to another device. That type of setup is used in quite a bit of arcades system, to mix different layers of different video chips. In the context of the PCE, the VCE is almost a waste. Bloody Wolf gets by just fine without it. It makes me wonder if something else was planned but cut. Maybe the SGX was closer to the original PCE design, but was cut down due to costs.

- Audio. It's not surprise to me that the stock audio isn't miles ahead of the NES or even home computers at the time. The CD addon was more than likely to be their key marketing advantage. The difference of chips tunes like the PCE has, to that of CDDA audio - only strengthens the CD addon's value. There are upgrades that can be done via cart (mono input being one of them), but also a higher res timer. You can use the scanline interrupt (all 262 lines) to make 16khz audio, but it's rather expensive. An external timer that you resync on vblank INT would be perfect. It could even digitally mix channels for you and output them on two 5bit channels (10bit output), etc. But of course, hucards were replaced with dominant CD format fairly earlier on. The real mist opportunity is on CD games. You have 6 channels to use at once to make some really unique and great sound FX, yet more settled back on generic/typical PSG-ish tiny type SFX.

- CD addon memory. The original CD addon memory was DRAM. DRAM is/was much less expensive than SRAM. Yet they only included a measly 64k. With only 64k of vram, 64k of simulated cart space is pathetic. They should have gone at least with 128k. At least that. It ended up costing them more in the long run because the there is no /RDY for DRAM interface on the cart port (on the expansion bus), so the 192k upgrade ram on the SCD card is SRAM. Much more expensive than DRAM. They should have started out with 192k or 256k of DRAM to begin with. I mean, considering the cost of everything else in the CD addon base ( the MCU, the cd drive logic, the ADPCM IC + ADPCM ram) - it would have been relatively low.

- VDC. The VDC in the PCE (basically THEE video chip) spends quite a bit of time doing nothing during active display. IIRC, it spends have the scanline doing nothing. It gives all those slots to the CPU. For an engineering standpoint, that's fairly wasteful. There's totally enough time to actually fetch and build another BG layer there. But more important than that, is how amazing fast the VDC fetches all the sprite pixels. It does it in the short amount of time of hblank. No other system does that. Other other systems from that era use the whole scanline to parse and fetch the sprite pixel data for the next line. Not the VDC, does it all in hblank. But here's the kicker... there's only 64words of memory for sprite line buffer. That's 256 4bit sprite pixels. The VDC is fast enough to fetch much more than that, and it tries - but there's no more space to store them so they get dropped. Considering they chose not to have a second BG layer or static under/overlay window, they should have AT LEAST increased this to double the size. They had to have known that developers were going to fake BG overlay parts with sprites. Making sprites all the more important. Plus, that means the sprites to scanline ratio with also scale with the increase resolutions (mid res, high res). But because of this limited buffer, it doesn't. That's more said than any missing BG layer. Such power wasted and crippled by a small internal buffer. To me, that's the single best mist opportunity of the system design.

- Yes, the SGX could have been made an addon. But not as it is. The extra 24k of ram sits where it's normally mirrored on the PCE. If you try to make ram there either via cart or expansion bus, you'll get a bus conflict. Just won't work. But everything else, yes. But there's a simple solution for SGX software to see if it's running on the main console or as an addon. It tests the mirror ram, if present then it used alternate bank mapped ram. Simple as that. I came up with this idea because the CD system card does just this. There's a reserved bank number in the last few bytes before the vector address of the system card rom. CD software take this value and use it as the starting bank for CD ram. Oddly enough, Gate of Thunder actually tries to change this byte in rom. From what Charles MacDonald told me of the CD dev card, system rom and ram are in different places - so this starting bank number was put there for a reason. GOT have some left over dev card routine to change it, but since it's rom it doesn't change. Anyway, the very same method could have been used to play SGX games on the main SGX system or the addon SGX upgrade.

- CD addon. The CD addon was in development when the PCE was too. Though the PCE was release first (and a year apart IIRC). The initial faults of the PCE should have been clear in the first few months. The CD addon could have addressed some of these. Adding a second VDC to the CD addon is VERY doable. It doesn't even have to be as extravagant as the SGX. The original VCE output would be ignored and a new VCE inside the CD addon could have upgraded the RGB resolution to 12bit too. Or some other scheme ( a 10th and 11th bit for half intensity and double intensity in the RGB entry), etc turned on by a special reg otherwise left disabled for compatibility reasons.

Adding the video upgrades, even if less than what I suggested (maybe just a static overlay/underlay 8bit image and a new VCE palette expansion) - would have made the CD addon stand out even more. And when the Duo was released, it would no problem matching the level of the SFC and MD hardware wise.

Sega fucked up. They didn't have even half what the PCE had for an expansion bus. Yet they tried everything they could to have the MegaCD more advanced. It was... no it IS hackish. If you even dev'd on the SegaCD then you know exactly how hackish it is. The PCE had all the right pins and access lines needed to make a real hardware addon.... and they squandered that opportunity. They squandered the opportunity to make the CD addon and incredible upgrade that it could have been, not just some addon with a few frills here and there.

soop · May 18, 2011, 10:37:02 AM

Reading that is just incredible, but it kind of makes me sad. I need you to go back in time

TurboXray · May 18, 2011, 06:44:16 PM

Quotethe MSX, Spectrum, Coleco, Intellivision, all the Atari's, the Master System.... the Atari ST....

Those sound chips are basic toy chips IMO. My comment about the chip is relative to the NEC PC line (being the most popular in Japan and being of the same developer... NEC). All FM chips. Even the lowest grade ones too. The PCE chip lacks any form of timbre control on a single channel. You have to pair channels just to try and emulate the effect. That's one of the reasons why you still see comments to this day, that PCE chip music sounds like NES-ish stuff. Yeah, it's much more capable than the NES overall. But it wouldn't have hurt them to make it an even 8 channels. Making channel pairing more viable option as single pseudo channels. The lack of timbre control like real music synths or even low grade FM chips, sets the PCE chip into lower category. Or hell, something even more simpler than that. Something so simple, it makes me want to punch the PCE audio developer in the face. A simple read back of the waveform pointer position of the fucking selected channel. "I mean, come on!" (arrested development reference). That alone would have made the PCE audio chip into a real wavetable synth (no, not sample based synth like the SNES/MOD/ETC). That one simple little feature. Bloody Wolf developer said "fuck it, were gonna do it anyway", and tried to do it with the trumpet instrument - but without the knowledge of the waveform pointer it comes off as course and click-y (for obvious reasons).

As for the PCFX, that's the most moronic thing they could have ever done. Why the hell would they do that? A 1994 system (might as well be 1995) with an audio chip from 1987??? WTF were they thinking? It should have at least had an 8 channel sample based DSP and an 8 channel Yamaha 2151 (standard stuff for that era). It might be cool or unique now, but BITD it was fucking laughable. Of course, there are a lot of things about the PCFX design that just boggle the mind. IF it was released AS IS in late 1992... then maybe it would have been appropriate (video and audio specs). But 1995 is a joke. To me, the PCFX is a SuperGrafx 2.0.

ccovell · May 18, 2011, 08:32:29 PM

Quote from: guest on May 18, 2011, 07:09:04 PMThe PCE is pretty damn unique in sound land, mimicked only by the SCC, and the NES w/ add ons. And neither of those do it as good.

The SCC might be mono and only 5 channels, but it's much deeper and richer than the PCE's sound. 8-bit samples vs 4-bit samples does make a difference.

I agree that the PCE's PSG is a bit simpler and less ambitious than FM chips, but it still has a good sound to it. Also, Hudson did the development of the whole PCE core chipset, so NEC wouldn't have had any say (or relevance w/r/t their line of PCs) until after Hudson started shopping around for manufacturers.

FraGMarE · May 18, 2011, 09:24:58 PM

On this same topic, a small processor chip in the 1-2 MHz range for handling the PSG would have been nice. As it stands, the Hu6280 CPU handles the PSG sound, and it eats up 5-10% of processing time that could be freed up for game code. Not a huge deal, but still would have been nice.

TurboXray · May 20, 2011, 11:16:53 AM

Quote from: ccovell on May 18, 2011, 08:32:29 PMThe SCC might be mono and only 5 channels, but it's much deeper and richer than the PCE's sound. 8-bit samples vs 4-bit samples does make a difference.

If the waveforms are short, 8bit depth does nothing for it. And then take that into the analog output world (because sample output isn't stair cased like when you look at it digitally), it means even less. The sample lengths for these DDS samples are way too short for the different of 8bit to 5bit to mean much of anything. If you don't believe me, try it yourself in an XM tracker. Make a 32sample 8bit wave and make an identical one in 5bit steps (padded to 8bit though). As it is, you can't even use all 5bit value range resolution for a complete sine wave in just 32 samples. If anything makes the MSX with SCC more rich, it would be the inclusion of the original on board MSX sound chip in conjunction with SCC chip.

QuoteI agree that the PCE's PSG is a bit simpler and less ambitious than FM chips, but it still has a good sound to it. Also, Hudson did the development of the whole PCE core chipset, so NEC wouldn't have had any say (or relevance w/r/t their line of PCs) until after Hudson started shopping around for manufacturers.

The over all design is good, IMO. But since it lacks any timbre control per intra-note (you can do it per note level itself though), it really holds it back. Early 70's synths that weren't FM used lots of channels to create instruments sound models, but to also control the timbre of a instrument sound. For the PCE's audio design, it's clearly lacking in the number of channels. By the time the PCE was out, audio chips in game systems were getting more serious (and arcades too). Famicom really stepped up the bar. PCE audio, if nothing changed in design, should have been eight to ten channels, really. Even if some higher channels had to share the same sample buffers as lower channels to cut cost. But then again, if NEC really wanted to 'fix' the issue, the mono audio in line is right there on the cart port. Famicom had a ton of audio upgrades via cart. So it's definitely not unreasonable that PCE wouldn't have gotten them either. But I think it goes back to the CD rom. The difference from chip audio to CDDA is drastic back then (an obvious selling point). If the CD addon had completely flopped, then I'm pretty sure we would have seen some audio upgrades on hucards.

QuoteI wonder if all these hardware possibilities were part of Hudson design works, or if they were due to NEC's involvement, or if NEC's involvement prevented them from pursuing those avenues. You wouldn't want the PCE, as a CD unit, begin to usurp PC-88 and, later, PC-98 sales. The CD-ROM was computer-bound...

Think of it this way. The PCE wasn't an open development system like the NEC PCs. It required a license (which is where NEC made money on each title/copy sold) and a special dev unit for it. If it was anything like the US, NEC wasn't receiving any licensing fees for game softs created on the PC series. And while the NEC PCs were very popular, I doubt even a 1/4 of the sales were strictly from gamers wanting to play PC games. I think that was more of an added side bonus for kids that got a PC. NEC had more to gain and little if anything to loose by making the PCE game system more powerful than the PC line for gaming. But then again, I didn't grown up in Japan and all of that is based on my personal experience with PC's here in the US BITD.

Digi.k · January 17, 2012, 06:20:13 PM

Quote from: guest on January 16, 2012, 04:53:16 PMI know this is kind of late, but anyway, here is my list of missed oppurtunities

1. More Capcom and Konami games
2. Namco CDs. ALL of Namco's games were on Hucard. Some ports were fantastic(Galaga 88, Genpei Toumaden), but others were awful(Youkai Douchuuki, WONDER Momo). Splatterhouse had none of the gory backround details from the arcade, and could have been much better on CD format.

If only Konami had stepped in earlier.. I would love some of those MSX-2 games to have appeared on the pc-engine... Space Mambo for pce ?? HELL YEAH!

and a port of the orginal MSX parodius... ;_;

nectarsis · January 17, 2012, 06:39:21 PM

Quote from: guest on January 16, 2012, 04:53:16 PMSome ports were fantastic(Galaga 88, Genpei Toumaden), but others were awful(Youkai Douchuuki, WONDER Momo).

Genpei Toumaden...fantastic

LOL

Digi.k · January 17, 2012, 06:43:08 PM

Quote from: nectarsis on January 17, 2012, 06:39:21 PM
Quote from: guest on January 16, 2012, 04:53:16 PMSome ports were fantastic(Galaga 88, Genpei Toumaden), but others were awful(Youkai Douchuuki, WONDER Momo).
Genpei Toumaden...fantastic LOL

it's almost arcade perfect !!! I don't have mame and the roms anymore to prove it but it is ;_;

RegalSin · January 17, 2012, 07:18:11 PM

Everything else was fine on the PCE.

1. They made the DUO ( including Super Grafx ) systems, instead of focusing on the original design. The original design could have been intergrated with the NEC series. It was perfect.

2.The PCFX was reasonable and could have and should have been the PC98.

3. Hudson Soft could have used the card type and challenge USB, and Firewire. Ever seen cable boxes with the slot card, parking meeters, and wash rooms dispencers? Swing and a miss hudson.

nectarsis · January 17, 2012, 07:27:43 PM

Quote from: Digi.k on January 17, 2012, 06:43:08 PM
Quote from: nectarsis on January 17, 2012, 06:39:21 PM
Quote from: guest on January 16, 2012, 04:53:16 PMSome ports were fantastic(Galaga 88, Genpei Toumaden), but others were awful(Youkai Douchuuki, WONDER Momo).
Genpei Toumaden...fantastic LOL
it's almost arcade perfect !!! I don't have mame and the roms anymore to prove it but it is ;_;

A POS that's arcade perfect is STILL a POS

lol

Syntesis · January 18, 2012, 07:00:50 AM

1. Contra game.

2. Bubble Bobble port.

3. Some sort of Castlevania on HUCARD.

4. Shenmue 3 on Super CD.

shubibiman · January 18, 2012, 09:11:21 AM

Mortal Kombat would have sold much more TGX16 is in the US, it was so huge back then.

BUT if the PC Engine/TGX16 had the same games as the other consoles, it wouldn't have had the same appeal, at least to me, as I liked it for its own games.

Of course, I would have loved to have beat 'em ups (or at least good ones) or Contra games.

Tatsujin · January 18, 2012, 09:21:44 AM

Lol, the PCE's hardware design was so much more superior advanced than the onef rom the MD/genny.
As I always like to say, if you open a PCE it looks like a reduced to the max super quad flat pack SMD super duper design direct from the future.
Now when you open a genny, it looks like a cheap radio alarm clock from the early 80s.

Now you tell me who had more experience in designing some rad hardaware?

Tatsujin · January 18, 2012, 09:28:04 AM

the genny had 10 channels FMA. It couldn't even manage to overlap two simultaneous voices in Street fighter II. Now who's the whiner?

Tatsujin · January 18, 2012, 09:42:49 AM

ROLFMAORORFLOL

Mathius · January 18, 2012, 10:44:34 AM

Quote from: guest on January 18, 2012, 09:31:39 AM
Quote from: Tatsujin on January 18, 2012, 09:28:04 AMthe genny had 10 channels FMA. It couldn't even manage to overlap two simultaneous voices in Street fighter II. Now who's the whiner?
TIGER UPPERHADOKTIGERUHADOKSHORYUTIGERUPPERCHADOKEN

You forgot to say that through that kazoo of yours.

soop · January 18, 2012, 10:57:15 AM

Beat 'em ups is a good point. I wonder how a Final Fight HuCard would have gone down. The PCE has proven it can handle massive sprites.. What's the closest game to Final Fight? The Kung Fu?

FraGMarE · January 18, 2012, 11:02:35 AM

I think both the TG16 and Genesis sound hardware do their respective jobs just fine. Cases can be made for excellent works on both systems. Take Ghouls N' Ghosts, for example... clearly it sounds better on the Genesis than on the SuperGrafx. Now look at Street Fighter II... you've got to be deaf not to hear the PC-Engine version sounds better. Then there were the dual-platform games where it's a bit more subjective. Devil's Crush, for example, sounds better to me on the TG16, despite it being programmed, on the Genesis, by the mighty Technosoft. Kyokyuko Tiger/Twin Cobra sounds better, to me, on the Genesis. Cadash, while both versions sound different, seem altogether about the same quality. The list could go on and on... Of course, each system has their sound masterpieces. You'll never find anything like Streets Of Rage or Thunderforce on the TG16/PCE, and you'll never find anything like Soldier Blade or Aldynes on the Genesis. The TG16 didn't have FM channels for that low, thumping, twangy bass and the Genesis did not have custom waveforms or enough PSG channels to get the same kind of sound out of its PSG channels as the TG16. The only thing I wish they'd done with the PCE/TG16 is give the PSG channels their own controller chip to take a little heat off the CPU. I mean, it's not like full-blown PSG sound eats up a *lot* of CPU time (5-10% maybe), but every little bit counts.

As for NES games sounding better, there are two things in play here. The first is nostalgia and the second is musical composition. While an argument can be made that many NES games (Ninja Gaiden, Contra, SMB, Megaman) had some ultra-addictive stick-in-your-head tunes that you keep humming all day, I think the majority of what's going on is that it's nostalgia at work. You were younger, things made a bigger impression on you back then, and NES music was essentially a soundtrack to your youth.

FraGMarE · January 18, 2012, 11:22:53 AM

Quote from: soop on January 18, 2012, 10:57:15 AMBeat 'em ups is a good point. I wonder how a Final Fight HuCard would have gone down. The PCE has proven it can handle massive sprites.. What's the closest game to Final Fight? The Kung Fu?

PCE would/could have handled Final Fight great, especially on HuCard. Might have to make the HuCard 6-8Mbit if you wanted all three characters, but as far as actual gameplay, it'd be just fine. You could even use the PCE's 336x224 mode for a resolution a bit closer to the arcade's, or you could go the SNES route and use 256x224. Take a look at Final Fight for the SNES... they pulled off two characters with a 4Mbit cart and it played just fine (and that was even an early release when they were still trying to figure out how to get the most of the SNES's turd of a CPU). The PCE desperately needed a *great* sidescrolling beater and never got it. Double Dragon II is good, but not exactly the most impressive beat-em-up. Riot Zone is visually nice, but the gameplay itself leaves much to be desired (no 2p co-op? wtf?). Personally, I think the PCE should have gotten a conversion of the original TMNT arcade game by Konami. It would have made a lot of sense, since the PCE had 5-player tap and there was no other decent conversion of that game around (yea, the NES version is a good game, but I wouldn't even really call it a good conversion).

Quote from: guest on January 18, 2012, 11:05:44 AM
Quote from: fragmare on January 18, 2012, 11:02:35 AMTake Ghouls N' Ghosts, for example... clearly it sounds better on the Genesis than on the SuperGrafx.
THEMS FIGHTIN WORDS.

HAHA well it really does sound better! PCE fanboyism notwithstanding, of course *cough*

FraGMarE · January 18, 2012, 12:08:42 PM

Yea, I'm sticking to my guns on this one.

Quote from: guest on January 18, 2012, 11:28:46 AMI prefer PCE music over most, because I like the way it sounds better than FM, lol.

and:
you sure it sounds better? lol

Yea, I'm sticking to my guns on this one. While the SGX soundtrack is more arcade faithful and the Genesis soundtrack is arranged, I enjoy the depth of the FM and, I'm sorry, some of the high notes on the SGX are just unpleasant to hear... just sayin'

FraGMarE · January 18, 2012, 01:20:39 PM

Quote from: guest on January 18, 2012, 12:48:32 PMexactly.

Even bad PCE music sounds good.

I can't really think of a game that has terri..

oh wait, Turrican.

Goddamn.

haha the PCE had its fair share of awful music, like any other system. Darkwing Duck comes to mind too

TurboXray · January 18, 2012, 03:52:16 PM

QuoteI think 10 was enough for the MD. The MD had some excellent soundtracks. The sound effects usually sucked balls, but thanks to the FM and PSG there were some fantastic tunes. I agree that more can be done with fewer channels, though. Look as some of the best NES soundtracks. I feel like the PCE's audio solution was simply too inflexible, too difficult to push. 6 channels would have been just fine if there were just a little more it could do with them.

But that's just a number. Most MD/Gen tunes don't even touch the PSG chip for music. And the ones that do definitely don't have it for the lead (with very-very few rare exceptions like SOR title screen music). Of the 4 PSG channels, it's realistically only three. 'Cause the noise channel is completely useless on its own; it only has two pitches for noise. If you want a real operation for the noise channel, it takes the period register of a tone channel (in which you loose a channel) to make real range of noise pitches. And the fact that PSG channels themselves are rather limiting (no duty cycle changing and the 10bit period register limits the octave range (both low notes and high notes). Considering what the FM chip was capable of (whether you're a fan of it or not), the SMS PSG chip is not much of a companion. You can already make perfect square wave and triangle waveform notes with the YM2612 using the feedback register (a common exploit in FM chips).

Same with the NES. Sure, 5 channels. But those channels aren't the same as the PCE. I mean, ignoring the fact that only two of the channels are lead (4 duty cycles for four different 'timbres') - the triangle channel has no volume control and neither does the 'sample' DPCM channel. So the PCE might have just one more channel, but it's a rather large step up from the NES audio in terms of capability. Whether developers took advantage of that or not, is another thing entirely.

But I do agree that 8 channels would have seemed the logical route for PCE audio. Not that you really need more channels per se to make a song or such, but the PCE's audio lacks any sort of intra-note hardware timbre control (though note-to-note timbre control is easy to do) and requires doing phase difference type effects with two channels to bend that timbre/sound (which number of PCE game music do). So an extra 2 channels would have worked nicely for that - even if it meant no extra waveform memory for them; just duplicate/reuse an existing waveform buffer. But as it is, the CDROM attachment was showcased even before the PCE was released. So think of that as your real audio upgrade (nothing could beat red book at the time). Appreciation for chiptunes seems all the rage these past 10 years or so, but back in the day people didn't give a shit. CD audio was 'badass' and everything else was inferior.

Digi.k · January 18, 2012, 05:51:26 PM

are we discussing that the pce-had a bad sound chip or that it just had bad music composers here... ?

cause I sure think we went down this road a few years ago....

roflmao · January 18, 2012, 07:30:18 PM

This thread is way over my head, but I still find it thoroughly interesting.

TurboXray · January 18, 2012, 10:26:14 PM

..... Arkhan, just let it rest. I wasn't replying to you directly or indirectly. Whatever your problem is, get over it already. I'm sick of you talking shit/snide remarks/attitude/whatever towards me on the forum. Quit trying to start/stir up shit. I purposely avoid replying to you or having any conversation with you on this forum. Please provide me with the same courtesy.

Keith Courage · January 18, 2012, 11:01:17 PM

I agree that there are many types of games that would have helped sales of the system. However, the biggest loss was that it had no 2nd controller port and a lack of fighting action style 2 player games. I really think this made a huge difference in North America. If only Riot Zone was 2 player. What were they thinking?

roflmao · January 18, 2012, 11:20:04 PM

Totally agree with Keith Courage.

arromdee · January 19, 2012, 01:15:41 AM

I'd go with not having a second layer of scrolling. Its absence was very noticeable

FraGMarE · January 19, 2012, 02:58:00 AM

Quote from: guest on January 18, 2012, 11:21:22 PMSo, quit being a pussy and lrn2forum.

HAHA, you weigh like 120lbs and look like the lost member of LMFAO... you want to be the pot or the kettle on this one?

FraGMarE · January 19, 2012, 10:04:35 AM

Quote from: guest on January 19, 2012, 08:22:22 AM
Quote from: fragmare on January 19, 2012, 02:58:00 AM
Quote from: guest on January 18, 2012, 11:21:22 PMSo, quit being a pussy and lrn2forum.
HAHA, you weigh like 120lbs and look like the lost member of LMFAO... you want to be the pot or the kettle on this one?
lol, what does weight/size/appearance have to do with being a pussy or not? Me weighing 135 (ye ye!) obviously hasn't stopped me from speaking my mind, ever.

and if the person I'm talking to has to end up resorting to physical aggression, it just means I'm right and they ain't got nothin' useful to say. If I get injured BRING ON TEH LAWSUITS CAUSE THIS IS 'MERICA.

For that matter, what does speaking your mind have to do with being a pussy or not? It has less to do with being a pussy and more to do with being a loudmouth internet assclown... or not, as the case may be.

Try that same approach in the real world and you'll likely end up getting your personality "fine-tuned" because of it. It probably has less to do with who's right or wrong than it has to do with who failed to recognize when they were pushing the situation to that point before it was too late and probably should have kept their loud mouth shut in the first place BEFORE there was physical aggression involved... an ouce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as they always say.

soop · January 19, 2012, 11:13:29 AM

Quote from: guest on January 19, 2012, 10:25:29 AM
Quote from: fragmare on January 19, 2012, 10:04:35 AMFor that matter, what does speaking your mind have to do with being a pussy or not? It has less to do with being a pussy and more to do with being a loudmouth internet assclown... or not, as the case may be.
Not really. You can't just go blabbering online in public and then whine and tell someone not to bother you because they're disagreeing. Well I mean, you can, but it makes you a pussy and you shouldn't be on the internet posting opinionated things. Suck it up and deal with it, or hit the ignore button if it's such a problem. That's what the button is for: Pussies and crybabies.

In this case the discussion is continuing along just fine and valid points/counterpoints are being made. It's not like anyones trolling in this thread. There's some hella stupid sandyvag going on though.

Bonknuts is convinced I have it out for him. Anyone who actually reads this forum consistently would know that what I've been posting isn't really any different than stuff I usually post. It's obnoxious and abrasive, but usually brings validity along with it.

Believe me, if I really had it out for TomaitheousBonknutsBonknuts, everyone would know, because I'd be doing something about it.

QuoteTry that same approach in the real world and you'll likely end up getting your personality "fine-tuned" because of it.
I feel sorry for people who have to start throwing punches because they can't handle talking.

I do this in the real world too. It's not a case of LOL INTERNET TUFF GUY. When I disagree, I disagree. When I think someones being stupid, I tell them. If they can't deal with it, they probably are stupid. Or a crybaby with sandyvag. The worlds a tough place. If the internets too hard, you're screwed.

QuoteIt probably has less to do with who's right or wrong than it has to do with who failed to recognize when they were pushing the situation to that point before it was too late and probably should have kept their loud mouth shut in the first place BEFORE there was physical aggression involved... and ouce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as they always say.
More often then not, when someone is losing an argument and runs out of options, they start to get mad.

Once they get mad, they start making less sense, and eventually turn to physical interaction to assert themselves. Usually the person who starts the physical confrontation was wrong to the point where they ran out of ideas.

Happens all the time.

On the internet, the mad usually becomes apparent when their post becomes riddled with typos/sentences that are barely coherent, grammarfail9000's, lash-out personal attacks with no actual reasoning behind them, and crap like that.

So if you can't hang, I encourage you to use the "I'm a huge, fat, sandyva... " i mean the "Ignore" button.

I wonder what'd happen with these people if the real world had an ignore button? They'd likely be wandering around oblivious to the world around them because they ignore anything that might burst their self absorbed little bubbles.

\o/

PCE sound chip is king.

Necromancer: I do proofread my posts. How often do I make typos or grammatical errors that AREN'T on purpose, and screw up the readability/point of a post?

as for the pot and kettle thing, *shrug*. I disagree.

At the risk of cauising a fuss... He wasn't annoyed at you r disagreeing, it was more the manner in which you disagreed. It was a little .... confrontational.

QuoteWhatever your problem is, get over it already. I'm sick of you talking shit/snide remarks/attitude/whatever towards me on the forum. Quit trying to start/stir up shit.

As for the whole "resorting to violence because you can't put across a decent argument", one could say the same about trash talking.

Personally, I lurked long enough to figure out who was who, and I know not to take stuff personally from you, but I guess you have been a little bit more confrontational with Bonknuts. I think quite a few people have really.

Sadler · January 19, 2012, 11:18:38 AM

Ark, I like you and I appreciate what you've done for the community. Regardless, any chance we can dial back the 4chan a bit in here? It's cool to disagree, but there's really no reason to act like a 13 year old on XBL while doing so.

soop · January 19, 2012, 11:34:38 AM

I agree, it's pretty tame, and TBH, it's not really a big deal apart from Bonknuts getting upset by it.

You should agree some kind of compromise, because it's a pretty interesting conversation, and the casual insults lend it a certain gravitas.

FraGMarE · January 19, 2012, 12:25:06 PM

Quote from: guest on January 19, 2012, 10:25:29 AM
Quote from: fragmare on January 19, 2012, 10:04:35 AMFor that matter, what does speaking your mind have to do with being a pussy or not? It has less to do with being a pussy and more to do with being a loudmouth internet assclown... or not, as the case may be.
Not really. You can't just go blabbering online in public and then whine and tell someone not to bother you because they're disagreeing. Well I mean, you can, but it makes you a pussy and you shouldn't be on the internet posting opinionated things. Suck it up and deal with it, or hit the ignore button if it's such a problem. That's what the button is for: Pussies and crybabies.

In this case the discussion is continuing along just fine and valid points/counterpoints are being made. It's not like anyones trolling in this thread. There's some hella stupid sandyvag going on though.

Bonknuts is convinced I have it out for him. Anyone who actually reads this forum consistently would know that what I've been posting isn't really any different than stuff I usually post. It's obnoxious and abrasive, but usually brings validity along with it.

Believe me, if I really had it out for TomaitheousBonknutsBonknuts, everyone would know, because I'd be doing something about it.

It usually takes a little trolling, or at least trolling disguised as opinions stated abrasively and obnoxiously to cause some "sandyvag". In turn, the offending troll usually had some sandyvag in the first place, which incited said trolling. While I realize what you're posting has some validity in there... somewhere... your "shotgun approach" to posting the abrasive and bitter shit isn't just pissing off your target audience (in this case Tom), it's getting on other peoples' nuts here too (namely mine). As far as not having it out for Tom, don't be coy. We all know you don't like the guy. We can all see it clearly when you respond to his posts with extra-abrasive vigor, even for you. Hell, you've even said as much, that you're not fond of Tom. Therein lies the problem... While I agree that having multiple projects in the works and finishing few is a tease and maybe even a bit irresponsible, it's no reason to have everyone else on this forum endure your personal grudge every time Tom posts something. If you're having some kind of marital spat with another member on this forum, take that bullshit to PM or something.

QuoteTry that same approach in the real world and you'll likely end up getting your personality "fine-tuned" because of it.
QuoteI feel sorry for people who have to start throwing punches because they can't handle talking.

I do this in the real world too. It's not a case of LOL INTERNET TUFF GUY. When I disagree, I disagree. When I think someones being stupid, I tell them. If they can't deal with it, they probably are stupid. Or a crybaby with sandyvag. The worlds a tough place. If the internets too hard, you're screwed.

QuoteIt probably has less to do with who's right or wrong than it has to do with who failed to recognize when they were pushing the situation to that point before it was too late and probably should have kept their loud mouth shut in the first place BEFORE there was physical aggression involved... and ouce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as they always say.

QuoteMore often then not, when someone is losing an argument and runs out of options, they start to get mad.

Once they get mad, they start making less sense, and eventually turn to physical interaction to assert themselves. Usually the person who starts the physical confrontation was wrong to the point where they ran out of ideas.

Happens all the time.

On the internet, the mad usually becomes apparent when their post becomes riddled with typos/sentences that are barely coherent, grammarfail9000's, lash-out personal attacks with no actual reasoning behind them, and crap like that.

So if you can't hang, I encourage you to use the "I'm a huge, fat, sandyva... " i mean the "Ignore" button.

Like I said, it's not always about being right or wrong. Sometimes its about how you present your argument. I can tell you, personally, if somebody came up to me in real life with a disagreement and was at least somewhat civil about it, I'd return the favor and have a civilized discussion about it. If they came up to me spouting off about how I had a "sandyvag" and calling me a pussy right off the bat, that's a good recipe for getting knocked out... and I'm not even a violent person! Sometimes it's not about who's right or wrong, sometimes it's about personal respect. If someone's not going to give me enough personal respect to hold at least a somewhat civilized discussion about something, I will make no guarantees the situation won't escalate to physical violence, because it seems that's what the other person wanted all along anyway. My point is, if you're bitter or butthurt about some other member here, fine, but don't make the rest of us suffer by derailing an entire thread into a flame war between the two of you. Use the PM feature or go hunt him down on IRC if you want to be over-the-top abrasive and generally annoying about it. It's like getting into a yelling match at a crowded restaurant. Take that shit elsewhere.

QuoteI wonder what'd happen with these people if the real world had an ignore button? They'd likely be wandering around oblivious to the world around them because they ignore anything that might burst their self absorbed little bubbles.

\o/

PCE sound chip is king.

Necromancer: I do proofread my posts. How often do I make typos or grammatical errors that AREN'T on purpose, and screw up the readability/point of a post?

as for the pot and kettle thing, *shrug*. I disagree.

Now that THAT'S off my chest, yes, PCE sound is king... or at least Prince of PSG. Though, I wish more was/would be done with the LFO feature using channels 1+2. I'd bet you could get some pretty FM-like sound qualities (nice sounding low notes and such) using that.

FraGMarE · January 19, 2012, 01:53:12 PM

Ark, look at it like this....

I'm in a restaurant and I'm hungry as fuck, sitting down and getting ready to enjoy a big, greasy Reuben sandwich with french fries and a tall, cold beer. I'm just about to bite into it, when I see you walk in and, Tom, sitting a couple tables over says something to you I didn't really pay attention to. A few seconds later, you're in each others' faces yelling about sandy vaginas and shit and it's pissing me off, because i'm just trying to enjoy my goddamn sandwich. So finally, I stand up and tell you BOTH to either the shut the fuck up or go outside with that bullshit. That's essentially what I'm doing here... the restaurant is this forum, the sandwich is this thread, and you and Tom are, well... you and Tom. SHUT THE FUCK UP OR LEAVE, I'M TRYING TO EAT A GODDAMN SANDWICH IN RELATIVE PEACE HERE!

roflmao · January 19, 2012, 02:08:42 PM

Quote from: fragmare on January 19, 2012, 01:53:12 PMArk, look at it like this....

I'm in a restaurant and I'm hungry as fuck, sitting down and getting ready to enjoy a big, greasy Reuben sandwich with french fries and a tall, cold beer. I'm just about to bite into it, when I see you walk in and, Tom, sitting a couple tables over says something to you I didn't really pay attention to. A few seconds later, you're in each others' faces yelling about sandy vaginas and shit and it's pissing me off, because i'm just trying to enjoy my goddamn sandwich. So finally, I stand up and tell you BOTH to either the shut the fuck up or go outside with that bullshit. That's essentially what I'm doing here... the restaurant is this forum, the sandwich is this thread, and you and Tom are, well... you and Tom. SHUT THE FUCK UP OR LEAVE, I'M TRYING TO EAT A GODDAMN SANDWICH IN RELATIVE PEACE HERE!

qft.

Arjak · January 19, 2012, 02:20:21 PM

*Facepalm*

Arkhan, I like you. I think you can be a great, fun guy, and you've usually stood up for me when I've said something that I felt was true that I feel strongly about.

However, I have to agree with fragmare on this one. Reading your last few posts, I feel like you really are getting too abrasive. I don't like the idea of you having to negate any good points you have by insulting someone in the same sentence. I also don't agree with the excuses you've made; things like, "It's just who I am," or, "This is the internet, this is how things work. Deal with it."

I remember when I made a post a while back about everyone being too sensitive and hateful on this forum, and you agreed with me, via PM. But now, I feel like you might be becoming part of that very issue.

You talk about how disagreeing with someone isn't the same as trolling. That's true...until someone throws a needless insult. I don't know the history between you and Bonknuts, so I won't comment on that specifically, however, insulting someone because you don't agree with them is what you're doing right now, and it hurts your argument greatly. It also makes you look like a troll. I know that's not the whole case; you have made great contributions to the PC-Engine community, like Insanity, but could you please try to dial back the obnoxiousness a bit?

I'll let all of you in on a little secret: I was once...like Nintega. I was obnoxious, angry, insulting, and easily butthurt. I was also 14 years old, but I was still being very immature. Overtime, I grew out of that bull. I'm now 22, and though I still get riled once in a while, I have tried to remain civil when I can. I don't think anyone here could logically accuse me of being a troll, here and now.

It used to be "just who I am." Then I changed for the better. If I can go from being like Nintega to being a good, helpful member of Internet society, can you please try to have discussions without throwing insults, Arkhan?

BigusSchmuck · January 19, 2012, 02:32:59 PM

I think the biggest opportunity lost was that there weren't enough Arcade Card games. Call me weird, but having gsmes like Metal Slug and Puzzle Bubble Bobble would have been great. Oh yeah and a duo with a built in arcade card and super grafx capabilities would have been nice.

Digi.k · January 19, 2012, 05:36:27 PM

Quote from: Keith Courage on January 18, 2012, 11:01:17 PMI agree that there are many types of games that would have helped sales of the system. However, the biggest loss was that it had no 2nd controller port and a lack of fighting action style 2 player games. I really think this made a huge difference in North America. If only Riot Zone was 2 player. What were they thinking?

I also think there was a lack of western character licenses for the pce/turbo.. honestly would love Hudson soft and NEC to have been more aggressive and produced a; mickey mouse disney /simpsons /x-men/marvel characters game. Also not having Konami release their games stateside was a blow too.

This reminds me of the old thread where me and ninja S. was photoshopping make believe covers for pce games XD

/xexex-1.jpg
/sunsetriders.jpg
/finalfight.jpg
/daimakamura.jpg
/superstreetfighterII.jpg

TurboXray · January 19, 2012, 10:39:06 PM

Two pages of drama related stuff... Look, this is what I'm actually trying to avoid. It's not that I give a crap about you or about what drama or shit you get involved in. I could careless about what you think you know and what your opinions are. I care about this PCE forum. You are not the forum, just a single member. We can't and don't get along, a plain and simple fact. Who cares why. It's irrelevant because it's not going to be fixed. I'm trying to execute some self control and avoid turning threads on this forum into a shit storm of back and fourth flaming war between. Nobody else cares. Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure people are sick of seeing it. I'm not going to setup any ignore button. It won't solve any problems. When I see your posts, I tend to skip right by them. When they're directed at me, it's not so easy. I can only ignore your tone and insults towards me for so long. I'm not a kid and I'm not your friend, so you don't get the luxury of talking to me like that - like it's just nothing. I'm not overly sensitive. I have friends in RL that I give/take shit way more than that. It's matter that we have history and it always comes down to and devolves into retarded back and fourth flaming/bashing shit 'cause neither one of us likes to back down and we both take it personally (regardless if you admit it or not). I don't want it and I'm pretty sure no one else here wants it. So I'm asking you, avoid replying to me. Avoid any conversation with me. It's that simple. And I'll keep doing the same.

This thread is derailed enough. We said our shit, so there's no reason to continue this here. If you REALLY have something so damn important to say to me, PM me.
.

FraGMarE · January 20, 2012, 04:44:59 AM

Quote from: guest on January 20, 2012, 03:03:28 AMThe SuperGrafx is a bit beefy. Not sure the PCE needed more sprites, necessarily. Sure, more would be better, but... Yeah, a GPU with a second background layer, a separate audio controller, and more CPU RAM would have made the system quite a lot more capable. Not sure what additional cost would have been incurred, though. I consider the minimal CPU RAM the single biggest hardware flaw in the system. There is no other factor which impairs the system more, IMO. I wonder if the presence of more weird graphical effects (various warping effects, software scaling, and fake 3D perspective shifts) in SNES and MD games is due in part to both increased RAM and to the CPU not having to share cycles with audio functions.

I've never really considered the lack of work RAM a big problem with the PCE. That RAM space, really only had three practical uses, all of which can be worked around, pretty easily.

a.) Storage of decompressed graphic data. Sometimes to reduce ROM size (and cartridge costs), Genesis and SNES games would store compressed graphic data in ROM, and decompress it to work RAM so that data could be called up quickly into VRAM when needed. The solution to this is to either decompress graphic data on-the-fly (slower), or simply store the data in ROM uncompressed (fast, but uses more ROM space).

b.) Self-modifying code. Sometimes, depending on the situation, code is faster and more efficient if it can modify itself to a degree. With more work RAM it's possible to store more self-modifying code. As a programmer, you'd have more options. Especially if you're used to making self-modifying code. The solution would be to simply code everything from the ground up, using static code. Or at least keep the self-modifying code to 8KB or less. Really not a huge deal, ask any of the PCE programmers here.

c.) Storage of variables, tables and other small structures that can be changed (this kind of ties in with b.) at any time. Some kinds of games use more variables than others. Shooters and platformers, for example, don't really need a lot of variables because the code is pretty straightforward. RPGs and adventure games, on the other hand, use a lot of this stuff to store things like current HP, XP, MP for both players and enemies, etc. Generally 8KB is still PLENTY for these variables. I'm sure there's some workaround for this that one of the programmers here could enlighten us on. Compression perhaps?

Samurai Ghost · January 20, 2012, 07:02:47 AM

Quote from: guest on January 19, 2012, 06:29:38 PMThat sunset riders mockup is a bonermaker.

Yes, very much so. Dammit!!

News:

Biggest lost opportunities for the PCE