Interesting tidbits

[bob]

I was listening to a podcast with Vic Ireland today and found it pretty interesting.
Some of you may be familiar with it, but it was new to me!  Anyway, I'm only half way through, so I'll add more if its worth it, but I liked these nuggets (I'm paraphrasing, since I don't remember word for word, but you'll get it)...

Q:  Did NEC ever tell you how many turbo CD units were sold?
A:  They did not, but we did find out that CF2 essentially sold 1:1 per cd unit. So that means just under 20,000 were out there.

Q:  How was the switch from cartridge to CD development handled at such an early time
A:  Cartridges really taught us a lesson. We did very well with Cadash, but lost our shirts on Parasol Stars. Between the two, we broke even. CD was much cheaper to develop for and I really wanted to localize RPG's

Q:  Did you ever consider localizing the other CF games?
A:  I would still like to.  I wanted to do CF stories that was on MegaCD, but the port sucked so we abandoned it.

Q:  Are there any games you completed or started that never got released?
A:  Can't talk a lot about that, but we did secure Shubibinman 3 then TTI took it from us.
We were just about done with the deal and they snuck in and got it. Then they never did it.

[CrackTiger]

Did he mention all the unsold CF2 and Exile stock that wound up on eBay years later? I think that any 1:1 ratio comments really meant that while WD was still paying attention, they believed that CD2 was bottle-necked by the number of Turbo CDs sold. Factoring in all the Turbo CDs sold in Canada, where WD Turbo games were unavailable, this is just another random off the cuff Vic Ireland comment that shouldn't be taken seriously. There are likely more copies of CF2 manufactured than Turbo CD + TurboDuos manufactured.

The Mega CD port of Cosmic Fantasy 1 & 2 has improved graphics and some new cinematics. As a port, it is an improvement overall. The main drawback compared to the originals is how the gameplay had been changed in many ways... which is the stuff that Vic likes to tinker with anyways.

I believe that Shockman 2 was going to be done the same as Dungeon Explorer II, with WD doing the voice work and helping with the translation, since they were so broke and terrible at completing projects/running a business. Vic has claimed that Cosmic Fantasy 3 was completely localized but never released.

[bob]

Didnt shubs 2 actually become shockman?

And believe me, nobody is taking his comments as law. Just thought it was interesting.
He did specifically say they sold just under 20,000 copies of CF2.  And said he "heard" it was almost 1:1.

[djolof]

I think i heard this podacast a long while back... no?

[Tatsujin]

Vic Baby

[DildoKKKobold]

I was listening to a podcast with Vic Ireland today and found it pretty interesting.
Some of you may be familiar with it, but it was new to me!  Anyway, I'm only half way through, so I'll add more if its worth it, but I liked these nuggets (I'm paraphrasing, since I don't remember word for word, but you'll get it)...

Pretty sure this is the podcast: http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=9098844

It is the one that hooked me on retronauts. Bob Mackey is an awesome host.

The original Retronauts got eaten up when ziff davis bought out 1up. Luckily, the former crew started a kickstarter, and blew away their goal, so it survives for now.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2005831476/revive-retronauts-your-favorite-classic-gaming-pod

If you are not just a TG16 fan, but a retro fan in general, this podcast is amazing. Go through, and listen to the entire history, it is still available on 1up.

[bob]

Thanks for finding it. I had it on my iPod for quite a while when I downloaded a bunch of them for a flight.  Just got around to listening it.  I'm a big fan of Jeremy Parrish.

[Gillian Seed]

Doesn't Retronauts have a video series as well? If so that's the only thing I caught from them, and it actually annoyed me because they had so many facts wrong about the game they were playing (Mega Man Legends).

[TR0N]

Doesn't Retronauts have a video series as well? If so that's the only thing I caught from them, and it actually annoyed me because they had so many facts wrong about the game they were playing (Mega Man Legends).

They did on youtube with the 1upnetwork channel.Though now the guys from retronauts have there own site.Now that 1up.com is more,they have started over again.
http://www.retronauts.com

[Deletion]

Uh oh. The Retronauts podcast goes back to 2007? Time to pull out the iDevice and say goodbye to productivity for a while.

[ApolloBoy]

Didnt shubs 2 actually become shockman?

It did, but it sounds like WD wanted to release Shubs 3 as Shockman 2.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Did he mention all the unsold CF2 and Exile stock that wound up on eBay years later?

That's not really relevant to the 1:1 sales figures.

I think that any 1:1 ratio comments really meant that while WD was still paying attention, they believed that CD2 was bottle-necked by the number of Turbo CDs sold.

It's probably the case.  Why would people buy a game they can't play.

Factoring in all the Turbo CDs sold in Canada, where WD Turbo games were unavailable, this is just another random off the cuff Vic Ireland comment that shouldn't be taken seriously.

What's not to be taken seriously about it?  I mean if you're going to factor in Canada, why not factor in Japan too, since WD games weren't available there either, for obvious reasons.

There are likely more copies of CF2 manufactured than Turbo CD + TurboDuos manufactured.

I don't think anyone has ever doubted that.  Including Vic.

[bob]

Uh oh. The Retronauts podcast goes back to 2007? Time to pull out the iDevice and say goodbye to productivity for a while.

HAHA!  Been there.
It is pretty well done.

[CrackTiger]

What's not to be taken seriously about it?  I mean if you're going to factor in Canada, why not factor in Japan too, since WD games weren't available there either, for obvious reasons.

By "CD unit"; I assumed that he meant the Turbo CD and maybe even the TurboDuo, which were sold in Canada, but not Japan. Many Americans over the years have talked about how they had a Turbo CD or TurboDuo, but never owned CF2. Nec/TTi were so disorganized, I doubt that they kept proper sales numbers through to the end. It also seems weird that Nec/TTi would withhold hardware sales figures from one of their only third/1.5 parties, yet tell them that their game was selling 1:1. Whatever was said to Vic, it was probably early on during the Nec days, back when the CD library was small and CF2 was a much more significant release and he's just throwing two variables together in the middle of a conversation. It all plays into his cospiracy of "the only thing that ever held me back was outside forces!", which continued to haunt him as he jumped from console to console.

[DragonmasterDan]

By "CD unit"; I assumed that he meant the Turbo CD and maybe even the TurboDuo, which were sold in Canada, but not Japan. Many Americans over the years have talked about how they had a Turbo CD or TurboDuo, but never owned CF2. Nec/TTi were so disorganized, I doubt that they kept proper sales numbers through to the end. It also seems weird that Nec/TTi would withhold hardware sales figures from one of their only third/1.5 parties, yet tell them that their game was selling 1:1. Whatever was said to Vic, it was probably early on during the Nec days, back when the CD library was small and CF2 was a much more significant release and he's just throwing two variables together in the middle of a conversation. It all plays into his cospiracy of "the only thing that ever held me back was outside forces!", which continued to haunt him as he jumped from console to console.

Sales figures in general weren't quite as spot on as they are today. Toy Retail Sales tracking managed most of it for the United States and were not the most accurate as their numbers came from a small number of high volume retailers and they averaged those figures based on market share estimates to fill in the blanks.

NEC/TTI definitely knew how many units were manufactured and shipped to retail. But sell-through to consumers was a lot harder to track. I recall hearing stories from TZD about the sheer mass of inventory they got back from Toys R us while TTI was shutting down.

I suspect there were probably 3 times as many TurboGrafx CD systems and Duos sold in the US as there were copies of Cosmic Fantasy 2 sold (meaning my guess is around 60,000). We could throw LaserActive TurboGrafx PAC numbers on there, but it wouldn't increase the number by much if at all. I think the Duo sold quite a bit better than the CD attachment, though still not well enough to be considered more than a niche in North America.

[bob]

Sales figures in general weren't quite as spot on as they are today. Toy Retail Sales tracking managed most of it for the United States and were not the most accurate as their numbers came from a small number of high volume retailers and they averaged those figures based on market share estimates to fill in the blanks.

NEC/TTI definitely knew how many units were manufactured and shipped to retail. But sell-through to consumers was a lot harder to track. I recall hearing stories from TZD about the sheer mass of inventory they got back from Toys R us while TTI was shutting down.

I suspect there were probably 3 times as many TurboGrafx CD systems and Duos sold in the US as there were copies of Cosmic Fantasy 2 sold (meaning my guess is around 60,000). We could throw LaserActive TurboGrafx PAC numbers on there, but it wouldn't increase the number by much if at all. I think the Duo sold quite a bit better than the CD attachment, though still not well enough to be considered more than a niche in North America.

Funny you say this, in the podcast, he states that the DUO didn't add to the user base much at all.  (barely, in his words)
He also makes an estimate that Sega CD was roughly 3X the install base at 60K.
Again, just Vic being Vic

It all plays into his cospiracy of "the only thing that ever held me back was outside forces!", which continued to haunt him as he jumped from console to console.

This.
But he does mention that WD was responsible for making Sony change the rules in regards to some areas of packaging.  Specifically, he says that Sony used to publish all the manuals themselves (for PS2) and had to be provided the content in order for the manuals to be made.  WD came in and fought this so they could produce higher quality manuals.

[DragonmasterDan]

Funny you say this, in the podcast, he states that the DUO didn't add to the user base much at all.  (barely, in his words)
He also makes an estimate that Sega CD was roughly 3X the install base at 60K.
Again, just Vic being Vic

I think that estimate was Sega CD sales around 1993 when Lunar was first published. Not eventual combined North American sales.

[bob]

Probably, I also made an assumption he was speaking in regards to when he was still publishing for both.  So a very small timeframe.

[DragonmasterDan]

Probably, I also made an assumption he was speaking in regards to when he was still publishing for both.  So a very small timeframe.

Well, the Duo was closing in on its last gasps for breath by the time Lunar came out. If I recall correctly Exile: Wicked Phenomenon came out around July or August of 1993 and Lunar came out in December as their next release. Cosmic Fantasy 3 and those Neo-Geo Ports were still apparently on the schedule while Lunar was being worked on. But as the holiday season of 1993 was not so kind to the Turbo those were cancelled.

[CrackTiger]

Probably, I also made an assumption he was speaking in regards to when he was still publishing for both.  So a very small timeframe.

The Sega-CD sold millions of units. Just how many millions depends on who you ask.

[bob]

Really? Got that high?  I would have bet the under at 1,000,000.

[ParanoiaDragon]

Didnt shubs 2 actually become shockman?

It did, but it sounds like WD wanted to release Shubs 3 as Shockman 2.

Actually, it was TTI that was going to release it as Shockman 2.  WD was going to call it Cyber Twins according to whichever Shirley Bro. I talked to.  He told me they didn't like Shubibinman 2 at all, & IIRC, they wanted to distance themselves from it.

[DildoKKKobold]

Funny you say this, in the podcast, he states that the DUO didn't add to the user base much at all.  (barely, in his words)
He also makes an estimate that Sega CD was roughly 3X the install base at 60K.
Again, just Vic being Vic

It probably didn't help him that the Duo finally had good software on it. I doubt the awful box art of CF2 was going to help sales. At that point, the only new titles from WD were Exile:WP and (sorta) DE2. I'm actually curious if WD got a flat fee for its work on DE2, or got a cut of the profits.

Its interesting hearing about how Vic would literally hop into flame wars with fans back in the day. WD is revered in most collecting circles. From the sounds of it, fans weren't as happy with him and the decisions made in localizations back in the day.

I'd love to get one of those Goemon dolls.

[CrackTiger]

Really? Got that high?  I would have bet the under at 1,000,000. 

The Genesis was insanely successful and popular. It would only take a minor percentage of Genesis owners buying Sega-CDs to get up to those numbers. The Sega-CD got the kind of marketing that the TG-16 never did.

[jeffhlewis]

Sales figures in general weren't quite as spot on as they are today. Toy Retail Sales tracking managed most of it for the United States and were not the most accurate as their numbers came from a small number of high volume retailers and they averaged those figures based on market share estimates to fill in the blanks.

I do sales analytics for a large consumer packaged goods company, and even today with RFID tracking and detailed tracking of product from vendor to warehouse to retail, stores still manage to screw up sales figures and inventories (store-level inventory numbers in particular are a crapshoot). I can only imagine how bad it was back in the early 90's.

[Gillian Seed]

The SEGA CD sold at least 1.5m, if Sonic CD figures are anything to go by. They could very well be false themselves.

[bob]

The SEGA CD sold at least 1.5m, if Sonic CD figures are anything to go by. They could very well be false themselves.

Which version of the sega cd came with sonic cd in the cardboard case?  Was that the cdx?

[CrackTiger]

The SEGA CD sold at least 1.5m, if Sonic CD figures are anything to go by. They could very well be false themselves.

Which version of the sega cd came with sonic cd in the cardboard case?  Was that the cdx?

Yes, along with cardboard Ecco CD.

[bob]

And the sega classics w/ Sherlock Holmes?

[DragonmasterDan]

And the sega classics w/ Sherlock Holmes?

Sega CD model one came with the 4 in 1 disc and Sherlock Holmes in a double case of sorts. Sol Feace was also included

[exodus]

if you want interesting tidbits, hopefully y'all have read these two old interviews I did with takahashi meijin.
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3801/the_game_master_speaks_hudsons_.php

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/132633/the_game_master_on_then_and_now.php

lots of stuff about the difficulties of the early days of CD-based game making (they didn't even have a burner yet), caravan, hi-ten bomberman, etc etc

[xcrement5x]

Yeah, here's the pack in break down for Sega CD if anyone cares:

Model 1: Classics 4-in-1 double-packed with Sherlock Holmes, and Sol Feace (All slim CD sized cases made out of cardboard)

Model 2: Mainly Sewer Shark, but there was a Joe Montana and Tomcat Alley version as well.  Maybe one more I might be forgetting.

CDX: Classics 5-in-1 double-packed with Ecco, and Sonic CD (All slim CD sized cases made out of cardboard)

XEYE: Prize Fighter in 2 disc sleeve, Compton's Encyclopedia in sleeve

[bob]

if you want interesting tidbits, hopefully y'all have read these two old interviews I did with takahashi meijin.
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3801/the_game_master_speaks_hudsons_.php

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/132633/the_game_master_on_then_and_now.php

lots of stuff about the difficulties of the early days of CD-based game making (they didn't even have a burner yet), caravan, hi-ten bomberman, etc etc

Peace out, BUD!

CDX: Classics 5-in-1 double-packed with Ecco, and Sonic CD (All slim CD sized cases made out of cardboard)

Yup, this is the one I have (and sonic). Thanks for that.
LOL Prize Fighter.

[bob]

So there seem to be two different versions of the sonic cd in the cardboard, small case.
One has pink cd art and stamped "not for resale".  The other is primarily blue art and doesn't have the resale mark.  Did they sell it seperately?

(I'm hijacking my own thread here, but now I'm curious)

[xcrement5x]

The blue one you're talking about is the retail disc which originally came in a longbox.  It's possible they started using those when they ran out of the pink/red version, or maybe simply someone in a CD store or the like swapped them along the after they were traded in at some point. 

[bob]

Makes sense. So just a mix-n-match probably.

[A Black Falcon]

Sales figures in general weren't quite as spot on as they are today. Toy Retail Sales tracking managed most of it for the United States and were not the most accurate as their numbers came from a small number of high volume retailers and they averaged those figures based on market share estimates to fill in the blanks.

NEC/TTI definitely knew how many units were manufactured and shipped to retail. But sell-through to consumers was a lot harder to track. I recall hearing stories from TZD about the sheer mass of inventory they got back from Toys R us while TTI was shutting down.

I suspect there were probably 3 times as many TurboGrafx CD systems and Duos sold in the US as there were copies of Cosmic Fantasy 2 sold (meaning my guess is around 60,000). We could throw LaserActive TurboGrafx PAC numbers on there, but it wouldn't increase the number by much if at all. I think the Duo sold quite a bit better than the CD attachment, though still not well enough to be considered more than a niche in North America.

Funny you say this, in the podcast, he states that the DUO didn't add to the user base much at all.  (barely, in his words)
He also makes an estimate that Sega CD was roughly 3X the install base at 60K.
Again, just Vic being Vic

On GAF a few years ago Vic said that he thought that the Duo sold 20,000, and the Turbo CD system that or less.  So his guess is probably 40,000 between the two systems.  He also said that his Turbo CD games sold much better compared to the size of the audience than anything he's released since.

By "CD unit"; I assumed that he meant the Turbo CD and maybe even the TurboDuo, which were sold in Canada, but not Japan. Many Americans over the years have talked about how they had a Turbo CD or TurboDuo, but never owned CF2. Nec/TTi were so disorganized, I doubt that they kept proper sales numbers through to the end. It also seems weird that Nec/TTi would withhold hardware sales figures from one of their only third/1.5 parties, yet tell them that their game was selling 1:1. Whatever was said to Vic, it was probably early on during the Nec days, back when the CD library was small and CF2 was a much more significant release and he's just throwing two variables together in the middle of a conversation. It all plays into his cospiracy of "the only thing that ever held me back was outside forces!", which continued to haunt him as he jumped from console to console.

Sales figures in general weren't quite as spot on as they are today. Toy Retail Sales tracking managed most of it for the United States and were not the most accurate as their numbers came from a small number of high volume retailers and they averaged those figures based on market share estimates to fill in the blanks.

NEC/TTI definitely knew how many units were manufactured and shipped to retail. But sell-through to consumers was a lot harder to track. I recall hearing stories from TZD about the sheer mass of inventory they got back from Toys R us while TTI was shutting down.

I suspect there were probably 3 times as many TurboGrafx CD systems and Duos sold in the US as there were copies of Cosmic Fantasy 2 sold (meaning my guess is around 60,000). We could throw LaserActive TurboGrafx PAC numbers on there, but it wouldn't increase the number by much if at all. I think the Duo sold quite a bit better than the CD attachment, though still not well enough to be considered more than a niche in North America.

So your guess would be 20,000 CD systems and 40,000 Duos or something?  Do you think the Duo sold a lot better than the CD system?  On ebay at least both are quite uncommon, I'm not sure which you see more of... but sure, those numbers sound quite plausible too.

Probably, I also made an assumption he was speaking in regards to when he was still publishing for both.  So a very small timeframe.

Well, the Duo was closing in on its last gasps for breath by the time Lunar came out. If I recall correctly Exile: Wicked Phenomenon came out around July or August of 1993 and Lunar came out in December as their next release. Cosmic Fantasy 3 and those Neo-Geo Ports were still apparently on the schedule while Lunar was being worked on. But as the holiday season of 1993 was not so kind to the Turbo those were cancelled.

And Vasteel released earlier in the year, I guess?  Finding actual release dates for any of those 1993-1994 Turbografx/CD games (even just release MONTHS!) is so ridiculously hard... it's quite frustrating.

Really? Got that high?  I would have bet the under at 1,000,000.

Supposedly the Sega CD sold 6 million systems worldwide, 2.5 million of those in the US, which puts it almost a million more than the number of Saturns sold in the US... much less Turbo CDs and their 40-60 thousand likely sales.  (Or even the TG16 itself; the best guess is like 900,000 for the TG16 in the US, right?  Versus 20-something million Genesises in the Americas...)  Some people doubt the Sega CD worldwide and US sales numbers, but those are the only numbers we have.

[DragonmasterDan]

And Vasteel released earlier in the year, I guess?  Finding actual release dates for any of those 1993-1994 Turbografx/CD games (even just release MONTHS!) is so ridiculously hard... it's quite frustrating.

Generally speaking that type of thing wasn't tracked well. Fortunately for Vasteel and Exile 2, Working Designs kept a decent record of their releases.
http://web.archive.org/web/20040605172722/http://workingdesigns.com/About_Nav.htm

Vasteel came out in June 1993.

[Sadler]

And Vasteel released earlier in the year, I guess?  Finding actual release dates for any of those 1993-1994 Turbografx/CD games (even just release MONTHS!) is so ridiculously hard... it's quite frustrating.

Generally speaking that type of thing wasn't tracked well. Fortunately for Vasteel and Exile 2, Working Designs kept a decent record of their releases.
http://web.archive.org/web/20040605172722/http://workingdesigns.com/About_Nav.htm

Vasteel came out in June 1993.

Very cool, wish there was more detail there. DE2 was probably one of the conversions listed there, what was the other? Shockman 2? The podcasts led me to believe there was somewhat of a struggle between Hudson and Working Designs on that game.

Anyway, I know Vasteel and Wicked Phenomenon were two of the last releases I got as a child. They were bargain bin in a Toys 'R Us in Baltimore, I think I got several more games with those and it was roughly Christmas '94.

[A Black Falcon]

And Vasteel released earlier in the year, I guess?  Finding actual release dates for any of those 1993-1994 Turbografx/CD games (even just release MONTHS!) is so ridiculously hard... it's quite frustrating.

Generally speaking that type of thing wasn't tracked well. Fortunately for Vasteel and Exile 2, Working Designs kept a decent record of their releases.
http://web.archive.org/web/20040605172722/http://workingdesigns.com/About_Nav.htm

Vasteel came out in June 1993.

Very cool, wish there was more detail there. DE2 was probably one of the conversions listed there, what was the other? Shockman 2? The podcasts led me to believe there was somewhat of a struggle between Hudson and Working Designs on that game.

It says at the bottom that the other one was apparently Elfaria for the SNES (never released outside of Japan of course).


As for other date issues, I'd still love to see proof of when Godzilla and The Dynastic Hero released in the US.

[CrackTiger]

I bought Vasteel in Seattle the summer that SFIICE was still the newest console version of SFII.