Superiorities of PCE games vs. the others?

[Tatsujin]

CrackTiger kinda brought me on this idea with the sapphire statement in the other thread:

We already have Sapphire out performing any other 16-bit console game for number of sprite frames. It's a no-brainer.

So what do you love about certain PCE games that you can easily use to argue its undeniable superiority against other hardwares of the same era?

[esteban]

RUN + SELECT

[Tatsujin]

RUN + SELECT

WORD..altough i would have loved to see something like this on the screen before it was executed:



 

[Psycho Punch]

Never had any arguments and at this point I really don't care about which obsolete console is better than other...

but the color palette was an easy conversation starter!

[esteban]

RUN + SELECT

WORD..altough i would have loved to see something like this on the screen before it was executed:



 

Yeah, I was thinking:

RUN + SELECT brings up a prompt...hit RUN + SELECT again to confirm reset.

 

[Tatsujin]

RUN + SELECT

WORD..altough i would have loved to see something like this on the screen before it was executed:



 

Yeah, I was thinking:

RUN + SELECT brings up a prompt...hit RUN + SELECT again to confirm reset.

 

perfect!!

just what I always wanted 

[CrackTiger]

I believe that the PCE is the only 16-bit console which can run six good quality and long sound samples at once. The SNES sound chip's memory is supposed to be a pretty restrictive bottleneck. So the SNES is good at piecing together music from short, small sized samples and can do fewer larger longer samples. But if you're narrowing your view to the strength of the PCE, then I think that the PCE is best at running good quality sound samples.

[Nando]

I think it comes down to certain developers really having a great eye for color, design and gameplay.

Cut scenes wise, just about anything from Telnet and Falcom is mind blowing.  In graphics, some of the games developed by FACE had some really impressive sprites. Cross Wiber and Renny Blaster come to mind.

[pixeljunkie]

I definitely preferred the sound, even over SNES.

[ccovell]

I believe that the PCE is the only 16-bit console which can run six good quality and long sound samples at once.

The Neo-Geo can.  6 channels at 12 bits, 18.5Khz each, 1 additional channel at 16 bits with varying sampling rate.  Limited only by the size of sample ROMs.

[Tatsujin]

The Neo-Geo can also lick my AES

[Arkhan Asylum]

I believe that the PCE is the only 16-bit console which can run six good quality and long sound samples at once.

The Neo-Geo can.  6 channels at 12 bits, 18.5Khz each, 1 additional channel at 16 bits with varying sampling rate.  Limited only by the size of sample ROMs.

CrackTiger should've specified:  The only 16-bit console that wasn't overpriced and obnoxious.


I think the colors of the PCE games kick the piss out of both the Genesis and SNES.  While you will often see nicer layering in a Genesis game, you will almost never see better colors.

and when you do, they're dithered as fuck.    See: Ristar.



I also prefer the PCE's sound over the Genesis and SNES.   

Overall, between the card format, small formfactor console, controller that resembles an NES one but is better, and all this other stuff, it's kind of clear the thing kicks ass.


... too bad they forgot to bring the really kickass games to the USA.

[Nando]

The CD unit was 400 bones, that was quite expensive back in the day. If I recall, the console it self was about $200 which was about reg. price for consoles back then.

[Arkhan Asylum]

The CD unit was 400 bones, that was quite expensive back in the day. If I recall, the console it self was about $200 which was about reg. price for consoles back then.

The AES was what, 650$?  with one packin game that wasn't really that fun unless you like Nam or Baseball.

I'd rather drop the cash on a TGCD.  Any day.

[MotherGunner]

It's really hard for me to argue, period.  The PCE/TG-16 to me is the best system in the world.  Way ahead of its time on many fronts.  However, I also really love other systems and arcade games I grew up with.

[CrackTiger]

The AES is consolized arcade hardware that has zero original games in its library. It's literally all arcade roms.

Although he PCE is technically superior to the Neo Geo in some ways, I think most of us can agree that we're talking about PCE/MD/SNES.

[Tatsujin]

The AES is consolized arcade hardware that has zero original games in its library. It's literally all arcade roms.

Although he PCE is technically superior to the Neo Geo in some ways, I think most of us can agree that we're talking about PCE/MD/SNES.

if you go into other forums, it would more be like PCE/NES/SMS   *ignorants*

[Nando]

The CD unit was 400 bones, that was quite expensive back in the day. If I recall, the console it self was about $200 which was about reg. price for consoles back then.

The AES was what, 650$?  with one packin game that wasn't really that fun unless you like Nam or Baseball.

I'd rather drop the cash on a TGCD.  Any day.

Me too, but the Neo was on a class of its own back then, and even today. I knew more people that owned a TG16 than a Neo. Just saying, price point was okay for the core unit. The CD unit made it more expensive and a higher burden of entry, but it also gave it an edge over the other consoles. Obviously we know that marketing and the lack of WOW games killed the console here.

I just don't think price point was really the strength of the system, when it came to the CD unit. Once the Duo came out, it was an easier price tag to take.

[Nazi NecroPhile]

NeoGeo doesn't count, for it's 24 bit.  Duh.

[Opethian]

PCE über alles

[SamIAm]

To me, when it comes to what's in the actual games and not the purely on-paper stuff, the one meaningful advantage that PCE games have which relates directly to the technical side of things is the color palette. Were I to try to convince a Genesis/SNES purist about something cool and unique in PCE technology, that's what I would start with.

[Nando]

To me, when it comes to what's in the actual games and not the purely on-paper stuff, the one meaningful advantage that PCE games have which relates directly to the technical side of things is the color palette. Were I to try to convince a Genesis/SNES purist about something cool and unique in PCE technology, that's what I would start with.

I don't get it.

It's a limited color palette when compare to the SNES. Obviously blows the Genesis palette away. Now that's not to say that some gorgeous games didn't come out. I've already stated as much.

[Nando]

NeoGeo doesn't count, for it's 24 bit.  Duh.

Real Hot Dog stuff!

[CrackTiger]

To me, when it comes to what's in the actual games and not the purely on-paper stuff, the one meaningful advantage that PCE games have which relates directly to the technical side of things is the color palette. Were I to try to convince a Genesis/SNES purist about something cool and unique in PCE technology, that's what I would start with.

I don't get it.

It's a limited color palette when compare to the SNES. Obviously blows the Genesis palette away. Now that's not to say that some gorgeous games didn't come out. I've already stated as much.

He meant the displayable palettes. Golden Axe arcade has a master palette four times larger than PCE, but wound up with swatches of often-clashing monochromatic colors (several types of objects together all shaded the same, jumping from grey to blue to brown).

The most common Mode for SNES games only allows for something like 4 colors for the matte layer. This results in many games featuring NES/Gameboy looking huds. SFII is a good example. On PCE you get nicely colored and shaded fonts and icons instead.

[Nando]

Okay that makes more sense. Thanks!

[SamIAm]

I don't get it.

It's a limited color palette when compare to the SNES. Obviously blows the Genesis palette away. Now that's not to say that some gorgeous games didn't come out. I've already stated as much.

I agree about the SNES being better in a lot of ways, but I still think that the PCE palette has an inherent vibrancy that gives it a different look which is hard for the SNES to match. And yes, the greater number of sub-palettes (or whatever they're called) can be an advantage at times.

The other really meaningful advantage is the CPU power over the SNES, but that's a bit flimsier than the palette IMO. The difference in the amount of RAM can wind up balancing it out in some cases because you don't have to access/decompress stuff from the ROM so often with the SNES.

[OldRover]

IMO, the skill of the designers has a lot more to do with the way the game turns out than the hardware does. The Genesis may have a very limited set of subpalettes but can easily do things with its video hardware that are real headaches on the PCE. The SNES has the widest range of colors but can't display as many on-screen as the PCE can, though its overall graphics capabilities are beyond both the Genesis and PCE. The PCE buries both in terms of displayable colors as well as free cycles, but that's all for naught if you don't know how to exploit these things, and it seems like so few companies really knew how to work the hardware back in the day. Ultimately, if you were to take one game and develop it concurrently on all three consoles... which would look the best? My money's on either the PCE or the SNES. Which would play the best? Either the PCE or the Genesis version. Which would sound the best? Depends on whether or not you used the CD... the CD gives the Genesis and PCE a distinct advantage over the SNES in this department. Without it though, it's hard to say... just depends on how well you can work their respective sound capabilities.

There is no absolute best between the three, no matter how fanboyish we may get around here. There is always going to be *something* that one of the other consoles can do better with the same game, no matter which one you're defending.

[Nando]

I thought massive otakuness was the order of this thread.

[ccovell]

IMO, the skill of the designers has a lot more to do with the way the game turns out than the hardware does. The Genesis may have a very limited set of subpalettes but can easily do things with its video hardware that are real headaches on the PCE. The SNES has the widest range of colors but can't display as many on-screen as the PCE can...

Not true.  You're totally forgetting the SNES' transparency mode, which multiplies the number of colours on-screen, as well as the 256- and 2048-colour bitmap modes, native to the PPU(s).

[Tatsujin]

To me, when it comes to what's in the actual games and not the purely on-paper stuff, the one meaningful advantage that PCE games have which relates directly to the technical side of things is the color palette. Were I to try to convince a Genesis/SNES purist about something cool and unique in PCE technology, that's what I would start with.

that's basically what this thread is about

[OldRover]

Not true.  You're totally forgetting the SNES' transparency mode, which multiplies the number of colours on-screen, as well as the 256- and 2048-colour bitmap modes, native to the PPU(s).

Oh, I didn't know that the transparency mode actually increased the color count; I was always told it just used approximation within the current palette. I've never seen anything about a 2048 color bitmap mode though, just the 256 color one.

[EvilEvoIX]

The AES is consolized arcade hardware that has zero original games in its library. It's literally all arcade roms.

Although he PCE is technically superior to the Neo Geo in some ways, I think most of us can agree that we're talking about PCE/MD/SNES.

Samurai Showdown was quite amazing IMHO and extremely original and ground breaking for a fighter.  The KOF series was very original and novel in mixing up series fighters, even arch nemesis got into the act with Capcom/SNK.  That would be like if Coke worked with Pepsi and made a new Soda together.  Many original Puzzlers such as Puzzle Bobble which just ate millions in quarters.  I beg to differ and I could go on but yes the AES really isn't part of the 16 BIT PCE/MD/SNES argument.

[ccovell]

I've never seen anything about a 2048 color bitmap mode though, just the 256 color one.

Here: http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=9187&start=15#p97671
Here (Nintendo's 1989 SFC spec press release) : https://www.chrismcovell.com/secret/misc/IMG_1159sm.jpg  (https://www.chrismcovell.com/secret/SFC_1989Q3.html)
And Wikipedia mentions the SNES' colour specs in bpp; Direct mode has 8bpp or 11bpp.  2^11 = 2048.

[OldRover]

Well, I stand corrected then.

[OldRover]

Are there any games that actually use it though?

I've also looked into the Genesis shadow/highlight bit and it seems that it can only really be used for static stuff since it's so bloody slow. Toy Story seems to use it; I took some screenies that are >100 colors, and one that was in the 900s.

[Tatsujin]

looks like some HAM mode like the amiga could do with its 4096 onscreen colors, which was almost never used for any in-game graphics.

[OldRover]

According to what I've read, the shadow/highlight mode could technically produce up to 1536 colors, but is so amazingly slow that it can only be used for static images. Oh... as an aside, Toy Story is one of the crappiest games I've ever seen. Holy shit, what a pile. I'd rather play Fantasia... oh wait, that's a pile too... well... Chakan? Another pile... damn... running low on games to play... ah well, low-color-count Sonic it is.

[Tatsujin]

I was always wondering how much color sonic uses in the first level?

btw. any easy tools to count colors in a picture?

[roflmao]

I haven't used it, but it sounds like irfanview (http://www.irfanview.com/) has an option to count colors.  It's a free download to boot!

[Tatsujin]

I haven't used it, but it sounds like irfanview (http://www.irfanview.com/) has an option to count colors.  It's a free download to boot!

great thanks. and works

btw. sonic uses around 40 onscreen colors in the first stage (depending on locations and enemies on screen). quite nice what they could pull out with those only 40 colors, tho.

[BigusSchmuck]

According to what I've read, the shadow/highlight mode could technically produce up to 1536 colors, but is so amazingly slow that it can only be used for static images. Oh... as an aside, Toy Story is one of the crappiest games I've ever seen. Holy shit, what a pile. I'd rather play Fantasia... oh wait, that's a pile too... well... Chakan? Another pile... damn... running low on games to play... ah well, low-color-count Sonic it is.

Didn't Donkey Kong Country push the limit to 4,096 colors on screen at once using a scanline trick? I could have sworn I read that somewhere. Otherwise, the sheer fact that the PCE used hucards and pulled off what it could do for its time was a amazing feat indeed considering how small those things are in comparison to something a neo geo cart. A true predecessor to usb flash drives.

[ccovell]

According to what I've read, the shadow/highlight mode could technically produce up to 1536 colors, but is so amazingly slow that it can only be used for static images.

For accuracy's sake, shadow/highlight mode does not introduce any problems related to speed; the VDP and CPU can run at the same speed as always.

Where's your source for this being "amazingly" slow?

[CrackTiger]

I believe that S&H eats up double the visible sprites.


The SNES transparency color counts are a meaningless. It's almost always not used to increase graphical color/detail/shading and even when it is (like in Chrono Trigger), the benefit is minimal and comes with compromises. You don't get graphics that are ten times more detailed, you get the same SNES quality graphics with a piece of overlapping stained glass.

[awack]

Comparing the games the pc engine dominates(im only comparing to the snes and genesis) in a couple of areas, and these superiorities came along with the introduction of the cd especially the super cd format...it completely thrashed the competition when it came to action games, when I say action games im talking about games like horizontal and vertical shooters, side scrolling games like shinobi, castlevania, and contra, contra type games are only theoretical though.

Lets compare what many people believe to be the best 16 bit shooter,Thunderforce IV, it has around 450 frames of animation, give or take and about 13 back ground variations, now lets take winds of thunder, it has around 930 frames of animation and 44 back ground variations. The problem with card or cartridge shooters is that they range from 2 to 8 megs in memory, there is one exception and that's the 2nd paroduius game for the snes, it has a whopping 16 to 18 megs of memory, it has around 750 frames of animation and between 15 and 18 back ground variations, so as you can see much better than Thunderforce IV, there is another factor, size, sprite size, big sprites take more memory than tiny sprites, below are the regular enemies from WOT and Parodius 2, no bosses.

WOT


Parodius 2 snes


The most impressive action games are around 16 or a little over megs, like Batman & robin for the genesis, Dracula xx for the snes(yes Dracxx is one of the most impressive when it comes to sprite frames, Back ground variation and sprite size) etc, Castlevania Blood lines and Super castlevania both have around 650 frames of animation in total, the above games have about 1020 and 1030 total frames. The Batman game has between 1020 and 1050 frames of animation and 17 or 18 back ground variations, Rondo of blood has over 3000 frames of animation and 59 back ground variations, lets not forget that the pce has half a meg of memory for adpcm soundfx, which I have heard could also be used to store graphic info like sprite and tile sets, what that means is that these card and cartridge games have a good number of soundfx Rondo has a huuuuuge number of unique soundfx.....Rondo also has far more BG tile animation, on top of all of this, you also get what cds are known for cut scenes.

The sprites in Rondo are huge, SCIV, Bloodlines, Batman and robin etc don't even come close, the closest one infact is Dracxx, a lot of the enemies that were cut from dracxx were some of the largest sprites in rondo, the largest animated fx were also cut out, enemy attacks in Rondo of bloodl like lightning, skull projectiles, wave attacks and item crushes are much larger than any sprite found in SCIV, in other words Rondo of blood is pure magic.

Rondo


SCIV snes


While the PCE is my favorite system because action games are my favorite type of games, im not saying its the best system, because other genres are lacking on the super cd format, like side scrolling brawlers, one on one fighters, platform games like Yoshis island sonic 3 or ristar and platform shooters, which actually fall in the action game category, amazing games of this type could have been produced for this system like a contra game,  but the system didn't get one nor did it get a brawler of the same quality of streets of rage 2 or 3 for the genesis or final fight 3 for the snes.

I haven't talked about the ACD, which took this crap to a whole new level, Fatal fury special is probably the most impressive game for the ACD, no gen or snes fighter even comes close when you look at sprite size, animation and so on, im tired but I might go into some of this furhter a little bit later.

[ccovell]

The SNES transparency color counts are a meaningless. It's almost always not used to...

The OP asked his question in a way that could be interpreted as a "hardware superiority" question, or as a "game superiority" question, quite cleverly.  However, I do not think it is a good idea to switch the topic from the former to the latter whenever superiority of the SNES, Genesis, etc. on a specific point becomes apparent.

For example: "The TGX wins in # of onscreen colours"  "No, the SNES does, technically."  "Yeah, but the way they are used..."  leads a simple discussion down confusing avenues.  # of colours is a measurable hardware stat, while artistic talent is a whole subjective topic to itself.

Comparative capabilities of systems is a very interesting topic in and of itself.  Discussions of actual execution are great too, but not in the same breath, because it always causes the logical thread of these discussions to unravel.

[CrackTiger]

The SNES transparency color counts are a meaningless. It's almost always not used to...

The OP asked his question in a way that could be interpreted as a "hardware superiority" question, or as a "game superiority" question, quite cleverly.  However, I do not think it is a good idea to switch the topic from the former to the latter whenever superiority of the SNES, Genesis, etc. on a specific point becomes apparent.

For example: "The TGX wins in # of onscreen colours"  "No, the SNES does, technically."  "Yeah, but the way they are used..."  leads a simple discussion down confusing avenues.  # of colours is a measurable hardware stat, while artistic talent is a whole subjective topic to itself.

Comparative capabilities of systems is a very interesting topic in and of itself.  Discussions of actual execution are great too, but not in the same breath, because it always causes the logical thread of these discussions to unravel.

Okay, PCE has twice as many tile and sprite palettes as the SNES.

Why even bring transparency up if "number of colors on-screen" was already into execution territory?

The OP actually based this thread purely on an execution based comment though. I've read countless times the details of how and why the PCE is the fastest at animation, but I can never remember the specific details because I'm not a programmer intimately familiar with the inner working of all three consoles.

[JoshTurboTrollX]

There is no absolute best between the three, no matter how fanboyish we may get around here. There is always going to be *something* that one of the other consoles can do better with the same game, no matter which one you're defending.

This quote alone is why the 16-bit era was so amazing and will never be repeated!

[OldRover]

Where's your source for this being "amazingly" slow?

Charles MacDonald's tech doc seems to suggest it. I don't always trust wikipedia but it's suggested there too.

[ccovell]

Where's your source for this being "amazingly" slow?

Charles MacDonald's tech doc seems to suggest it. I don't always trust wikipedia but it's suggested there too.

I can't find such a suggestion in either source...

[OldRover]

Maybe my memory is hazy these days. Ah well, fuck it.