What games should I get?

[rag-time4]

I enjoyed Ys 3 more than I did 1 + 2 (blasphemy?) Ys 3 has some very retro-feeling music. I get a kick out of playing the music in my car. It's a bit of an easy game, but I really enjoyed it. One knock on the game is that the background scrolling is a bit choppy in some parts. It's not nearly as smooth in the background scrolling department as the SNES version but the music and difficulty level are much more enjoyable (in my opinion)

I posted some comments about this recently. I've personally only gotten into the Ys series this past year since I wasn't a big fan of RPGs when I was younger. I own them all now, but I haven't completed II or IV yet.

Ys III put simply, just fucking rocks. I had more fun playing through Ys III than I've had with the other three [so far]. I just couldn't put it down until I finished it. I prefer the style and melodies on III over anything I've heard of the others.

And despite a glaring technical flaw (the scrolling in certain portions), the game is still a must-own. And that's just a testament to it's greatness.

Nat, the feeling I got from playing the game wasn't that it was "flawed"...

I really felt like the programmers were trying to get everything they could out of the hardware, but the hardware limitations when the game was made let them down.

I certainly haven't played every game from the era, but as the US version came out in 1991 it's a very old game. Are there other pre-system 3.0 games that have better background scrolling? I only have a handful of pre-3.0 gaems... None of them seem better than Ys3 in terms of parallax scrolling. Anyway, there are only certain parts of the game where it is really noticeable.

I own Ys 1-4 as well, but I haven't really started 4 yet. I've played through the first 3 and Ys 3 was definitely my favorite.

[awack]

I certainly haven't played every game from the era, but as the US version came out in 1991 it's a very old game. Are there other pre-system 3.0 games that have better background scrolling? I only have a handful of pre-3.0 gaems... None of them seem better than Ys3 in terms of parallax scrolling. Anyway, there are only certain parts of the game where it is really noticeable.

Yes there are a few pre-system 3.0 games that use a similar type of scrolling, one of them is shockman 3, the scrolling is very smooth.

[nat]

Nat, the feeling I got from playing the game wasn't that it was "flawed"...

...

I certainly haven't played every game from the era, but as the US version came out in 1991 it's a very old game. Are there other pre-system 3.0 games that have better background scrolling? I only have a handful of pre-3.0 gaems... None of them seem better than Ys3 in terms of parallax scrolling. Anyway, there are only certain parts of the game where it is really noticeable.

I agree on the last point. It's an intermittent problem but a problem nontheless.

However, I would argue it is indeed a flaw. A very big one. If the programmers were unable to create a viable background layer they shouldn't have bothered. However, there is no reason they couldn't have. Nothing I've played in my life approaches the atrocity of [some] of the scrolling in Ys III. As awack pointed out, Shockman 3 is a Sys-2.0 game that has beautiful layers. In practice the first level of Shockman 3 and the first town in Ys III are very similar in the way the layered backgrounds are laid out. The difference is that Shockman works correctly and Ys doesn't. What compounds the issue for me is that the backgrounds in Ys III aren't even all that complex, technically. There were lowly cartridge games released in the late '80s that have better scrolling layers, for heaven's sake!

The game is so good it makes up for all this, but I still can't believe Hudson actually released a game with an issue like that.

[Keranu]

The programmers who made the Turbo versions of Ys seemed to have had problems with parallax since all of the games suffer that choppy scrolling at one point or another. Oddly enough, there is one screen in Ys III that had perfect scrolling as well as a couple screens in Ys IV.

[awack]

If the programmers were unable to create a viable background layer they shouldn't have bothered.

I agree, they were trying to give the graphics a sense of depth but what they ended up with was an eye sore, the same goes for ninja gaiden.

[TurboXray]

Some parts of Ninja Gaiden the scrolls are choppy but OK, but quite a few parts are distracting (the first level comes to mind).

 Anyway, the scrolling in Ys III never bothered my. Sure it was little choppy, but multi-directional scrolls on a 2.0 card was nice to see back then. While some or most people won't care, Ys III display system is insane. On those choppy parts, the game doesn't use hardware scroll registers - it doesn't scroll at all! The game dynamically rebuilds the screen from alt sets of tiles and sprites (used as tiles) every frame (or 2 frames - I forget). Console systems were tile and tilemap based, and weren't meant for this kind of computational process. I, for one, am glad they did it. Once the mood and music kicks in, the scroll choppy side effects are nothing more than an distant memory.

 Not all the scrolling in Ys III could have been replicated like Shockman 3 and other games. Some parts yes, like the town area. But multi directional scrolls techniques are so limited that most of the time they can replicated what a true multilayer system can do.

[CrackTiger]

Although the developers of the Turbo Ys III may or may not have known how to do multi plane scrolling for Ys III, I don't think that they even really tried.

The Turbo version is a straight port of the MSX version. Thats why it has the sprites and bgs from the computer versions and not much redrawn like the MD, SFC and X68000 versions. The Turbo port's scrolling is pretty much exactly the same as the MSX version, frame for frame, only everything runs faster.

At the very least, if they wanted to use the same technique, they might've been able to program it in at a smooth frame rate if it they weren't trying to simply replicate the MSX version.

[Keranu]

It seems that most Falcom game ports on PCE are closer to the computer originals than other console ports, but more polished.

[TurboXray]

Although the developers of the Turbo Ys III may or may not have known how to do multi plane scrolling for Ys III, I don't think that they even really tried.

The Turbo version is a straight port of the MSX version. Thats why it has the sprites and bgs from the computer versions and not much redrawn like the MD, SFC and X68000 versions. The Turbo port's scrolling is pretty much exactly the same as the MSX version, frame for frame, only everything runs faster.

At the very least, if they wanted to use the same technique, they might've been able to program it in at a smooth frame rate if it they weren't trying to simply replicate the MSX version.

If I remember correctly Hudson did the Falcom ports. Either way, there wasn't much of a choice for doing multi scrolling BG layers. There really isn't a way to increase the frame rate for that method. The only other option would have been to fake multi scrolling in some of the horizontal screens and static/no separate scrolls in other areas (vertical or multi directional).

[CrackTiger]

If I remember correctly Hudson did the Falcom ports. Either way, there wasn't much of a choice for doing multi scrolling BG layers. There really isn't a way to increase the frame rate for that method. The only other option would have been to fake multi scrolling in some of the horizontal screens and static/no separate scrolls in other areas (vertical or multi directional).

If it was a matter of memory, couldn't the Super CD help to increase the frame rate?

And if it was a matter of horse power, if the MSX could do it, shouldn't the PC Engine be able to do more?

[TurboXray]

Well - the game wasn't on SCD but CD (1/4 the memory size). The original CD memory size is seriously limiting.

 The game (pseudo) scrolls a tile width at a time - 8 pixels. The increased the res to 352 to help make the 8 pixel increment a smaller amount of movement overall. The PCE CPU being faster than the MSX2 Z80A ( is says 3.58mhz but divide that by 3 or 4 to get the rough equivalent speed so ~1mhz vs 7.1mhz), really can't change the specs of the display processor which is the limiting factor here.

 There is a way to do that effect with half tiles by one set normal tiles and the second set a transition between two tiles, but this method takes up a lot more memory, gives less overall tiles per area because of the extra tiles taking more vram space, and reduces the number of colors per tile since they would have to share a palette (not that this would really effect Ys III and it's low color count).

 Btw - I think they animated the enemies in a choppy frame rate to match the background, otherwise the smooth scrolling/animating sprites would make the multi BGs pitfalls even more noticeable.

[Arjak]

You won't believe what just happened to me today.

I just got a copy of Dragon Slayer: Legend of Heroes.

Complete with the map.

For $35.

On ebay of all places.

I hope it arrives soon...

[CrackTiger]

Well - the game wasn't on SCD but CD (1/4 the memory size). The original CD memory size is seriously limiting.

 The game (pseudo) scrolls a tile width at a time - 8 pixels. The increased the res to 352 to help make the 8 pixel increment a smaller amount of movement overall. The PCE CPU being faster than the MSX2 Z80A ( is says 3.58mhz but divide that by 3 or 4 to get the rough equivalent speed so ~1mhz vs 7.1mhz), really can't change the specs of the display processor which is the limiting factor here.

 There is a way to do that effect with half tiles by one set normal tiles and the second set a transition between two tiles, but this method takes up a lot more memory, gives less overall tiles per area because of the extra tiles taking more vram space, and reduces the number of colors per tile since they would have to share a palette (not that this would really effect Ys III and it's low color count).

 Btw - I think they animated the enemies in a choppy frame rate to match the background, otherwise the smooth scrolling/animating sprites would make the multi BGs pitfalls even more noticeable.

Yeah, most(all?) of the enemies move in increments different than regular games. I'm not sure if it lines up perfectly with the scrolling or not, but its one more reason why I'd take completely static bgs over this kind of effect.

[Keranu]

You won't believe what just happened to me today.

I just got a copy of Dragon Slayer: Legend of Heroes.

Complete with the map.

For $35.

On ebay of all places.

I hope it arrives soon...

Awesome! Congrats on the great deal for a great game! At least I and some others here think it's a great game.

[geise]

I am surprised no one has mentioned the Valis series.  I loved the Valis series.  Valis II and III were released here in the states and are not that expensive or hard to find.  The voice acting is bad (especially in Valis III) but I love that series.  Valis IV and Phantasm Soldier for the Japanese CD and SCD are very awesome as well.  If you'd like to see what Valis is like you can find a version for MD/Genesis of Valis III.  The Turbo version is the same with more levels and cinemas, but less or no parallax scrolling on some levels.  There used to be a bug in Magic Engine that caused Valis Phantasm Soldier to not play, but it has recently been fixed.  So these games have no problem in Magic Engine.  Also I would suggest like others have in investing  in a Turbo System.  If you're not going to bother with HU Card games find a Japanese Duo-R or RX.  One other way is to get a TG-16 with the CD add on and Super Card system 3.  That way is actually cheaper from what I could find.  Dungeon Explorer II is another one I'd recommend.  I've seen it go for a good deal on ebay but I've also seen it go at a fairly reasonable price as well.  Just depends on the seller and people wanting it at the time I guess.  BTW I'm glad you're enjoying your Turbo games! 

[CrackTiger]

I'd only recommend Valis III and then if you like it, try the others.

[Keranu]

I'd only recommend Valis III and then if you like it, try the others.

Good point.

[Arjak]

My copy of Legend of Heroes arrived a few days ago and I've finally started it. Great game! The story so far is very well done.

The only bad thing about the game is the crappy voice acting

It's amazing how bad voice acting can almost be made into an art.

This is one of my favorites:

Commander: Whatcha want!?
Logan: I... am Logan... Crown Prince of Farlayne. I hearby order you to release all prisoners slaving in the pits!
Commander: I hearby order you to lah dee dah dah!

When I first heard that on Retroware TV's Falcom episode on YouTube, I burst out laughing at how absurd that was.

Speaking of which, that commander is kicking my ass! I guess I need to level up more...

[Keranu]

Haha, I love that "lah dee dah dah" line! Bad voice acting rules.

[Arjak]

KA-BUMP! (Since everyone else is doing it...)

Since I'm planning on getting an actual system, I thought I'd bring back this old topic of mine. And BTW...

This topic now supports HuCards and TurboChips!

My current Turbo/PC Engine library (all CD games) consists of:

On Hand

-Cosmic Fantasy 2 (US)
-Exile (US)
-Gate of Thunder 4-in-1 (US)
-Implode (US)
-J.B. Harold Murder Club (US)
-The Legend of Heroes (US)
-Lords of Thunder (US)
-Meteor Blaster DX - Signature Edition (US)
-Shape Shifter (US)
-Ys Book I&II (US)

On The Way

-Ys IV - The Dawn of Ys (JP)

So if you have any suggestions, feel free to post. Don't forget 'Cards.

One thing to keep in mind: I don't know much Japanese. So try to only list games that can be played in English; officially or translated.

Games I might get:

-Alien Crush (US-HU)
-Beyond Shadowgate (US-SCD)
-Blazing Lazers (US-HU)
-Devil's Crush (US-HU)
-Dungeon Explorer (US-HU)
-Neutopia (US-HU)
-Neutopia II (US-HU)
-Soldier Blade (US-HU)
-Tennokoe Bank (JP-HU) (This is an under-rated classic, with an awesome storyline that actually changes depending on what other games you play!)
-Ys III (US-CD)
-Etc.

Thank you!