My thoughts on Strider

Ayce · 01/02/2015, 08:17 PM

After a long arduous journey of trying to get my hands on Strider for the PC Engine has all paid off. I was leery about purchasing this after playing Golden Axe, but I'm so glad that I did. Right away from the beginning of this game when inputting the options I was very happy to see that you could skip the extra stage that was added to this game (though I thought the desert stage fit in quite nice). Once the game started the music was familiar, yet still had a new feel to it. It was not like some of the other games that have been ported where the sound track was horribly messed up... this actually fit!

There was a lot more flicker than in the Genesis port and I got hit by an enemy that I couldn't see because of the flicker. I was not too happy about that, but once I played into the game a little more I found a modified way of playing the game to compensate for that issue. The added boss dialog was a welcomed addition as well as the cutscenes (even if I don't understand a lick of Japanese). The game seems to be on par with the Genesis as far as the difficulty level goes, but there is an option to make the game easier or harder which I've not yet tried doing.

If you have the Arcade Card and have not tried this game out yet I suggest that you pick it up. If you are fan of the original you too will not be disappointed. Seeing as though I got this game for $53 I could not complain a bit, and I will end up playing this game quite a bit in the years to come.

PukeSter · 01/02/2015, 11:58 PM

Still a good game. Disappointing port. Managed to 1CC it also.

My least favorite parts are the lack of Uroboro's theme, and the pea green background for stage 4.

At least Hiryu yells when he attacks.

ParanoiaDragon · 01/03/2015, 03:02 AM

Yeah, it's missing some tunes, & definitely could've looked & played better, but I think it gets a worse rap than it deserves. And for the record, I love the new level, always have, including the music.

Ayce · 01/03/2015, 11:05 AM

Yeah but I thought the mid is on the desert level was harder than the actual boss of the stage. Not knowing what I was getting into the tank was ultra simple.

Joe Redifer · 01/03/2015, 03:54 PM

The first thing that always put me off about the game is that the music doesn't change mid-stage multiple times. I guess because of the CD seek time they didn't want the music stopping for 2 or 3 seconds while the next track was found. Too bad.

EvilEvoIX · 01/03/2015, 04:57 PM

Quote from: Ayce on 01/02/2015, 08:17 PMThere was a lot more flicker than in the Genesis port and I got hit by an enemy that I couldn't see because of the flicker. I was not too happy about that, but once I played into the game a little more I found a modified way of playing the game to compensate for that issue.

Genesis Does.

MrFulci · 01/03/2015, 05:08 PM

What PC Engine Don't?

PC Engine CD doesn't have blast processing. I think the Turbo Grafx, does.

TurboXray · 01/03/2015, 06:14 PM

Quote from: Ayce on 01/02/2015, 08:17 PMThere was a lot more flicker than in the Genesis port and I got hit by an enemy that I couldn't see because of the flicker. I was not too happy about that

Strider is seriously unoptimized when it comes to using sprites; it layers them like an arcade system (which home consoles don't have near the same amount of sprite bandwidth for doing that effectively).

Have a look:
pcedev.net/sprite_management/strider/enemy1_comparison.png
pcedev.net/sprite_management/strider/sword_swing_comparison.png
pcedev.net/sprite_management/strider/sword_swing_crouch_comparison.png

The PCE can only show 256 pixels of sprite data on a scanline. In those pics, I show the original (how the home port handles it) and how it could have easily and quickly been fixed. The game uploads the character frames on the fly, so it's not even like they are all just sitting in vram (if you don't understand where I'm going with that point).

wildfruit · 01/03/2015, 06:27 PM

I never got into strider. Largely because I'm rubbish at it. Took me ages to beat the flying communist dragon thing. When I did finally progress to the next stage I couldn't beat the robot monkey thing. I have it on a psp Capcom collection and I tried it years ago on mega drive.

BigusSchmuck · 01/03/2015, 07:26 PM

Quote from: TurboXray on 01/03/2015, 06:14 PM
Quote from: Ayce on 01/02/2015, 08:17 PMThere was a lot more flicker than in the Genesis port and I got hit by an enemy that I couldn't see because of the flicker. I was not too happy about that
Strider is seriously unoptimized when it comes to using sprites; it layers them like an arcade system (which home consoles don't have near the same amount of sprite bandwidth for doing that effectively).

Have a look:
http://pcedev.net/sprite_management/strider/enemy1_comparison.png
http://pcedev.net/sprite_management/strider/sword_swing_comparison.png
http://pcedev.net/sprite_management/strider/sword_swing_crouch_comparison.png

The PCE can only show 256 pixels of sprite data on a scanline. In those pics, I show the original (how the home port handles it) and how it could have easily and quickly been fixed. The game uploads the character frames on the fly, so it's not even like they are all just sitting in vram (if you don't understand where I'm going with that point).

Is this another project you are working on?

TurboXray · 01/03/2015, 11:16 PM

BigusSchmuck: No. Just something that I looked into, when I was checking out the game's assets and such.

WoodyXP · 01/03/2015, 11:57 PM

Meh Strider. That's one game that could have used the Supergrafx treatment.

MrFulci · 01/04/2015, 12:00 AM

Quote from: WoodyXP on 01/03/2015, 11:57 PMMeh Strider. That's one game that could have used the Supergrafx treatment.

I don't think the Supergrafx had, "Blast Processing". Genesis did.

spenoza · 01/04/2015, 12:12 AM

The entire game smacks of an unfinished project. A little more polish could have gone a long way.

Ayce · 01/04/2015, 08:58 AM

Quote from: guest on 01/04/2015, 12:12 AMThe entire game smacks of an unfinished project. A little more polish could have gone a long way.

LOL I think the same thing can be said for almost every Turbo title.

Samuray · 01/04/2015, 04:12 PM

Quote from: Ayce on 01/04/2015, 08:58 AM
Quote from: guest on 01/04/2015, 12:12 AMThe entire game smacks of an unfinished project. A little more polish could have gone a long way.
LOL I think the same thing can be said for almost every Turbo title.

Huh? Sorry for being dense, but I don't get that, I think. What's wrong with the CD library? Or does it refer to the US versions, hence the Turbo? Were any of those modified, except for the translation and the cover artwork?

And on topic: I really, really like "Strider" on Genesis, so now I'm wondering if I should pursue the PCE version as well, flicker or no flicker. Is it worth it? Or basically just the same game, just a bit worse?

CrackTiger · 01/04/2015, 04:22 PM

Strider ACD is definitely not worth buying an original copy of until you own the hundreds of superior cheaper PCE games first.

EvilEvoIX · 01/04/2015, 04:35 PM

Quote from: Ayce on 01/04/2015, 08:58 AM
Quote from: guest on 01/04/2015, 12:12 AMThe entire game smacks of an unfinished project. A little more polish could have gone a long way.
LOL I think the same thing can be said for almost every Turbo title.

This, even I, would argue against. Many great polished titles that couldn't be matched in speed or color by the MD or the SNES I submit most shooters as evidence. Rondo Of Blood as another however I submit that the Sega CD would have made more impressive sprites at the cost of color but there you go, trade off, nothing absolute.

Quote from: WoodyXP on 01/03/2015, 11:57 PMMeh Strider. That's one game that could have used the Supergrafx treatment.

This would have undoubtedly made the game more awesome based upon Sprite count alone. I never understood how doubling the sprites wouldn't tax the CPU especially with collision detection involved but from all I have read it didn't. The Supergrafx would have been great, I wish that there were many more games made for it by super fans. Over on Sega-16 they are working on 32X games.

Ayce · 01/04/2015, 10:53 PM

Quote from: Samuray on 01/04/2015, 04:12 PM
Quote from: Ayce on 01/04/2015, 08:58 AM
Quote from: guest on 01/04/2015, 12:12 AMThe entire game smacks of an unfinished project. A little more polish could have gone a long way.
LOL I think the same thing can be said for almost every Turbo title.
Huh? Sorry for being dense, but I don't get that, I think. What's wrong with the CD library? Or does it refer to the US versions, hence the Turbo? Were any of those modified, except for the translation and the cover artwork?

Don't get me wrong I enjoy most TG games, but there are quite a few of them that really need to have "more polish" as it was put. For example: Addams Family, Andre Panza, Battle Royale, Bravoman, Champions Forever, China Warrior, Darkwing Duck, Davis Cup, Deep Blue, Falcon, Ghost Manor, Impossamole, Jack Nicklaus, JJ and Jeff, Order of the Griffon, Power Golf, Shape Shifter, Shockman, Super Volleyball, Takin' it to the Hoop, and Timeball all need quite a bit of polish. Out of all the games that I own these ones I feel have some major issues. Is that to say they are bad games? No (not all of them anyway).
Then there are games that I really enjoy playing such as Hit the Ice, Keith Courage, Legendary Axe, Space Harrier, World Class Tennis, World Court Tennis... these game I have very fond memories playing as a child and games that I still enjoy playing today that could use more polish because they are lacking in many areas... does this make them any less fun? No, could they be much better... undoubtedly yes.

QuoteAnd on topic: I really, really like "Strider" on Genesis, so now I'm wondering if I should pursue the PCE version as well, flicker or no flicker. Is it worth it? Or basically just the same game, just a bit worse?

I love Strider on the Genesis, and I don't think the PCE version would disappoint you. Again as was already mentioned it could use some more polish, but what game couldn't. There is no perfect game out there, but there are so many things that makes this version of Strider stand out that I think as a fan of the original you would enjoy.

SamIAm · 01/04/2015, 11:55 PM

Isn't Strider PCE running at 30 fps? I think I read that it is somewhere, and the game definitely seems to have that certain unsmoothness to it.

CrackTiger · 01/05/2015, 08:06 AM

Quote from: Ayce on 01/04/2015, 10:53 PMI love Strider on the Genesis, and I don't think the PCE version would disappoint you. Again as was already mentioned it could use some more polish, but what game couldn't. There is no perfect game out there, but there are so many things that makes this version of Strider stand out that I think as a fan of the original you would enjoy.

Except we already have a couple decades of people being hugely disappointed by it. It isn't missing polish, it's the inverse: it was early in development and got sewn up and kicked out the door.

It isn't as unplayably terrible as its reputation, it does have lots of nice background details, even if other elements were lost in the quick merging of backgrounds. I've never liked Strider, but have played all of the console versions/arcade emulations and if you are into the gameplay, then it's still there well enough. Even though the framerate is either 30fps or scrolling at unusual integers.

Ayce · 01/05/2015, 10:36 PM

If you already don't like the game going into it... of course you're not going to like it. I suggest watching some videos on it and if you have a way of emulating it try to do that to get a taste.

FraGMarE · 01/16/2015, 12:15 AM

Quote from: SamIAm on 01/04/2015, 11:55 PMIsn't Strider PCE running at 30 fps? I think I read that it is somewhere, and the game definitely seems to have that certain unsmoothness to it.

That is the single most off-putting thing about ACD Strider. It runs at 30 fps. 60 fps was the de facto standard for just about any game worth a damn during the 16-bit era. 30 fps just seems choppy and unpolished. Combine that with the unoptimized sprites that Bonknuts pointed out and the poor use of color and you have... a bad conversion. Sad to say it, Strider is a bad conversion. It could have been so much better...

Dicer · 01/16/2015, 12:46 AM

Quote from: WoodyXP on 01/03/2015, 11:57 PMMeh Strider. That's one game that could have used the Supergrafx treatment.

SGX Strider did indeed exist at one point and time, or so I was told a long long time ago...

esteban · 01/16/2015, 12:58 AM

Quote from: Dicer on 01/16/2015, 12:46 AM
Quote from: WoodyXP on 01/03/2015, 11:57 PMMeh Strider. That's one game that could have used the Supergrafx treatment.
SGX Strider did indeed exist at one point and time, or so I was told a long long time ago...

Mock-ups existed. NFG or Covell wrote up an article about the plausibility of an actual SGX project....I don't know if it really existed beyond mock-ups.

ccovell · 01/16/2015, 01:50 AM

All the photos of "SGX" Strider that appeared in magazines are likely to be OLD stock photos of a proto Arcade Strider.

See: https://www.chrismcovell.com/secret/sp_unreleased_pce.html#sgxstrider

So, sorry, there are no extant, unique photos of SGX Strider as proof.

esteban · 01/16/2015, 07:00 AM

Quote from: ccovell on 01/16/2015, 01:50 AMAll the photos of "SGX" Strider that appeared in magazines are likely to be OLD stock photos of a proto Arcade Strider.

See: https://www.chrismcovell.com/secret/sp_unreleased_pce.html#sgxstrider

So, sorry, there are no extant, unique photos of SGX Strider as proof.

Yes, thanks for the link.

ALSO: I love the chart of unreleased games. I just re-visited it and was surprised how many titles I had forgotten about.

geise · 01/16/2015, 07:52 AM

PCE Strider is only good for the Redbook audio and cutscenes...nothing else.

I looooooove the music in the ACD game.

EvilEvoIX · 01/16/2015, 09:06 AM

The Super Grafx has double the sprite capability of the Turbografx right? So all sprite limitations would be all but lost and the conversion would be much closer to arcade perfect. I would have preferred a SGX-SuperCD version, best grafx and CD music. Would have ruled.

Ayce · 01/17/2015, 11:44 PM

I remember seeing images of Strider for Super FX in EGM and wanting it so bad. Though the images were faked I had no idea at that age.

TurboXray · 01/18/2015, 10:59 AM

Not sure how far along strider existed for SGX, but it was officially mentioned in a 1994 article/interview that the ACD game started out on the SGX platform.

Just some speculation: As for the 30fps thing, given that NEC Ave did both this and Tenchi o Kurau - the 30fps thing probably originated pre-ACD format, where the graphics/data were streamed from the CD on the one frame and game logic on the other frame. Something along those lines.

In the ACD port, the game 'loads' data (pauses) from the AC memory as if it were far memory (CD), instead normally just streaming it directly. There's no reason to do this. Other than to convert a CD game with subsection loading during a level, into an ACD game - quick and dirty.

RyuHayabusa · 01/19/2015, 07:39 AM

Someone needs to make a SGX demo of Strider, at least a partial level, to see how it could've been. Heck, if I ever win the lottery I'm going to hire someone to port it just for the hell of it.

Ayce · 01/19/2015, 07:49 PM

Well, I hope you win the lottery then.

Kid Fenris · 01/19/2015, 08:34 PM

Yeah, the never-was SuperGrafx version of Strider inspired all sorts of stories, including one about background pandas and teddy bears being tributes to a dead programmer.

http://dreamandfriends.com/2010/05/10/from-panda-conspirator-to-beloved-wife/

Turns out it was just as much a fragile rumor as the SuperGrafx port itself.

TurboXray · 01/20/2015, 08:16 PM

Quote from: Kid Fenris on 01/19/2015, 08:34 PMTurns out it was just as much a fragile rumor as the SuperGrafx port itself.

Well, it was more than just a rumor. It was confirmed in an official interview in 1994 that Strider ACD started out on the SGX originally. How far along in development, the interview doesn't say, but it is more than just a rumor.

Psycho Punch · 01/20/2015, 09:13 PM

Screw Strider, someone should port OSMAN to the PCE!

Arcade Longplay [402] Osman

That's a game I would like to see (since Strider is already there, not an optimal port but at least it exists).

Dicer · 01/20/2015, 10:51 PM

Quote from: TurboXray on 01/20/2015, 08:16 PM
Quote from: Kid Fenris on 01/19/2015, 08:34 PMTurns out it was just as much a fragile rumor as the SuperGrafx port itself.
Well, it was more than just a rumor. It was confirmed in an official interview in 1994 that Strider ACD started out on the SGX originally. How far along in development, the interview doesn't say, but it is more than just a rumor.

What I got at the time that a prototype hu did indeed exist, where that is now is anyone's guess if it did indeed actually exist.

ParanoiaDragon · 01/20/2015, 10:58 PM

While we're at it, might as well do a Turbo version of Moon Diver!

HailingTheThings · 01/21/2015, 02:13 AM

Quote from: ParanoiaDragon on 01/20/2015, 10:58 PMWhile we're at it, might as well do a Turbo version of Moon Diver!

I remember playing this game with a friendo and getting creeped out by weird laughter in one of the songs.

pulstar · 01/21/2015, 02:52 AM

Quote from: guest on 01/20/2015, 09:13 PMScrew Strider, someone should port OSMAN to the PCE!

Arcade Longplay [402] Osman

That's a game I would like to see (since Strider is already there, not an optimal port but at least it exists).

Osman is a little strange, but quite awesome at the same time. Much better, IMO, than Strider Hiryu 2. If anyone ever did a port of that to the PCE I'd be very happy.

esteban · 01/21/2015, 06:45 AM

OSMAN.

Ayce · 01/21/2015, 09:22 AM

Quote from: pulstar on 01/21/2015, 02:52 AM
Quote from: guest on 01/20/2015, 09:13 PMScrew Strider, someone should port OSMAN to the PCE!

Arcade Longplay [402] Osman

That's a game I would like to see (since Strider is already there, not an optimal port but at least it exists).
Osman is a little strange, but quite awesome at the same time. Much better, IMO, than Strider Hiryu 2. If anyone ever did a port of that to the PCE I'd be very happy.

I really did not like Strider 2 at all... I came across this Osman game recently, but have not given it the chance yet. When I saw it was a Strider knockoff I just passed it by. I guess I need to check it out.

pulstar · 01/21/2015, 03:25 PM

Well it isn't so much a knock-off as an indirect sequel. The director of Strider moved to Mitchell Corp and made Osman which is why it's so similar. So, let's term it an 'official' knock-off

TurboXray · 01/21/2015, 05:34 PM

What about the NES Strider? Supposedly it was in development at the same time as the arcade game (ccovell's website has some stuff on that).

Mzo · 01/21/2015, 06:16 PM

Quote from: TurboXray on 01/21/2015, 05:34 PMWhat about the NES Strider? Supposedly it was in development at the same time as the arcade game (ccovell's website has some stuff on that).

Yeah, the arcade game, NES game, and manga were all being worked on at the same time by separate teams to create the Strider franchise.

Psycho Punch · 01/22/2015, 02:31 PM

Quote from: esteban on 01/21/2015, 06:45 AMOSMAN.

FraGMarE · 01/22/2015, 05:49 PM

Quote from: TurboXray on 01/18/2015, 10:59 AMJust some speculation: As for the 30fps thing, given that NEC Ave did both this and Tenchi o Kurau - the 30fps thing probably originated pre-ACD format, where the graphics/data were streamed from the CD on the one frame and game logic on the other frame. Something along those lines.

I'm sorry, but 30fps in a 16-bit era action platform game is just unacceptable. Maybe if it were a turn based strategy or RPG or something, it *might* have been excusable, but not in a game like Strider. If they can pull of 60fps in Genesis Strider, they sure as hell could have pulled it off on the Turbob as well. It just needed some optimization. Genesis does, but PC-Engine can. SNES is the only one that doesn't/can't, haha. ;)