1up.com: Saving the System - TurboGrafx-16

jlued686 · 11/10/2011, 11:20 AM

Hey, I'm fairly pro-Wii (giggle). At least I WAS until they all but abandoned the damn thing. There are a fair number of really bad-ass games on that machine. (Also a mountain of steaming dog shit).

DragonmasterDan · 11/10/2011, 11:27 AM

Quote from: guest on 11/10/2011, 11:18 AMThats like saying the Wii isn't a failure though... lol

It all depends on what you expected of it, based on the N64 and the GameCube the Wii has easily met and exceeded my expectations. It clearly sold better than anyone expected it would prior to release. I would say it's not a failure.

Arkhan Asylum · 11/10/2011, 11:40 AM

I expected a fun video game console. not a motion sensor gimmick trainwreck that took what 3 or 4 years now to get games that shouldn't be used as coasters?

I didn't find holding my arm out like a dickwad with Metroid Prime 3 to be very immersive.

geise · 11/10/2011, 11:42 AM

I still use my Wii. I still play quite a few actual Wii games. I do play homebrew a lot, and VC as well. When a machine gets popular it is bombarded by "me too" games that plan to make a quick buck on shitty developed software. PSX was the same way. Same goes for the Atari and NES.

Arkhan Asylum · 11/10/2011, 11:44 AM

The difference is, PSX didn't have Carnival Games

and "Wii Sports Resort" or whatever.

WiiPlay. Screw that shit.

Lost in Shadow and Kirby Epic Pocketlint were fun though.

DragonmasterDan · 11/10/2011, 11:46 AM

Quote from: guest on 11/10/2011, 11:40 AMI expected a fun video game console. not a motion sensor gimmick trainwreck that took what 3 or 4 years now to get games that shouldn't be used as coasters?

I didn't find holding my arm out like a dickwad with Metroid Prime 3 to be very immersive.

There were good games on it for the past few years, it all depends what you like to play. Mario Galaxy, Muramasa, Smash Brothers, Punch Out, Zak and Wiki were all great games that didn't require too much of the novelty of waggle.

Arkhan Asylum · 11/10/2011, 11:52 AM

I stopped liking Mario after the SNES. The new super mario bros Wii was fun for like 30 minutes and then I went "Hey this is SMB3 but not as fun".

I never liked Smash Bros.

Muramasa was definitely a good one though. That was the first thing I'd used my wii for in awhile. The good things are few/far between. It's disappointing.

geise · 11/10/2011, 11:53 AM

Zak and Wiki is awesome! l love all those games you listed Dan. I also love Tatsunoko VS Capcom, Wario Shake It!, DQ Swords, Ravin Rabbids games, Sin and Punishment 2, Super Paper Mario, Opoona, Trauma Center: Second Opinion, Ivy the Kiwi, and Lets Tap!

Ark I do understand your disappointment with the Wii. It does take a while to wait for something really stunning to come out on the Wii. At least you have Turbo/PC-E to ease the pain in waiting haha!

Arkhan Asylum · 11/10/2011, 11:56 AM

Some of those games came out so frikkin long ago though and nothing good came out for awhile after that. Trauma Center was a fun game though. Both those ruled.

and Opoona. I liked that one. It's still not so great though. :-/

It's nintendo. there should be shitloads of games that rule, not about 15 of them, tops.

OldRover · 11/10/2011, 12:15 PM

On the subject of "failure"... I guess it depends on whether you're talking about marketing failure or gaming failure. The N64 and the Wii both tank hard on games, so gaming failure = check. Marketing failure though... the Wii can't seem to get this one wrong. Consumers like the gimmicky shit, and modern-day consumers have a serious case of amnesia, as they get screwed by one gimmick but then are in line for the next. Ridiculous.

DragonmasterDan · 11/10/2011, 12:32 PM

Quote from: geise on 11/10/2011, 11:53 AMZak and Wiki is awesome! l love all those games you listed Dan. I also love Tatsunoko VS Capcom, Wario Shake It!, DQ Swords, Ravin Rabbids games, Sin and Punishment 2, Super Paper Mario, Opoona, Trauma Center: Second Opinion, Ivy the Kiwi, and Lets Tap!

Ark I do understand your disappointment with the Wii. It does take a while to wait for something really stunning to come out on the Wii. At least you have Turbo/PC-E to ease the pain in waiting haha!

I forgot about Super Paper Mario, that is a great one. Kirbys Epic Yarn is great as well if you've not played it.

jlued686 · 11/10/2011, 12:42 PM

Arkhan: See this thread:
https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=10557.0

And in particular, this post:
https://www.pcengine-fx.com/forums/index.php?topic=10557.msg192882#msg192882

Like I said, the Wii support has all but dried up in the past year, but prior to that, I had a lot of fun with it. To call it a "failure", in either definition, is a bit of a stretch. The Jaguar was a failure. The Virtual Boy was a failure. But the Wii? I don't know that I can be convinced of that.

Arkhan Asylum · 11/10/2011, 12:47 PM

NiGHTs was total crap, and a colossal disappointment.

Noone should play that game.

DragonmasterDan · 11/10/2011, 12:49 PM

Quote from: guest on 11/10/2011, 12:47 PMNiGHTs was total crap, and a colossal disappointment.

Noone should play that game.

NiGHTs Journey into Dreams was miserable.

Arkhan Asylum · 11/10/2011, 01:34 PM

It showed everything that was wrong with the frigging WiiMote.

DragonmasterDan · 11/10/2011, 01:38 PM

Quote from: guest on 11/10/2011, 01:34 PMIt showed everything that was wrong with the frigging WiiMote.

It showed everything that is wrong with Sega's development process.

Half the game is running around as a kid on foot. That's not fun, I want to fly around as NiGHTs damnit.

SignOfZeta · 11/10/2011, 01:38 PM

The Wii has plenty of games for people who actually have a life. If you need to play new shit all day every day (or if you only use video games as a subject for internet discussion, and don't actually play them) there won't be enough.

Its very similar to the PSP situation. The good stuff is so comparatively rare that you forget it actually exists. It is there though, and if you feel like giving it a chance you'll probably have fun with it. If you get more out of hating the thing then, well, whatever, have fun with that.

jlued686 · 11/10/2011, 01:44 PM

Yes, Nights 2 sucked. Luckily that wasn't the only game on that list. ;)

Arkhan Asylum · 11/10/2011, 01:55 PM

The difference with the PSP is the controller isn't a trainwreck of annoyance.

Holding the wiimote sideways to be a ghettoNEScontroller doesn't cut it for me.

I play the Wii more now than I used to but I'm still pretty annoyed by the thing.

spenoza · 11/10/2011, 02:37 PM

Done properly I think the motion controls create a fun experience. Most developers found it wasn't easy to do fun and proper motion controls. Hey, I picked up a Classic Controller and bought the Metal Slug collection (which doesn't frikkin work with the Classic, dammit) and the Samurai Shodown collection. Both fantastic and better than the ports for other systems. Very limited/hardcore audience appeal as well. The ability to use GC controllers and games is also a plus, meaning my GC can sit in the other room doing nothing. Also picked up a VC copy of Dracula X.

I admit I don't often play the motion games, and I only own a couple, but some of the modes in Wii Sports Resort are lots of fun. I love Frisbee Golf. I can play that for a while any time. Sure, the motion controls aren't perfect, but they're damn good enough. I'm a lot better at FG on the Wii than in real life. Given how early to the market Nintendo was with motion controls I think they did a fantastic job of them. Nintendo clearly had a handle on how to use them, but most other developers didn't, as should be expected. Innovative control schemes are very hard to work with. Still, even if most of the games on the Wii didn't have a lot of staying power, Nintendo moved a ton of systems and made lots of money. And the few games that did have sticking power were excellent. If that's a failure, I sure wish my bank accounts failed as well as Nintendo's did with the Wii.

So I guess what it comes down to, as always, is that every system has something to love, and for some people there's more to love and for others there's less. Ark clearly sees less to love in the Wii. That's cool. We have enough questions about his own tastes in games ; ) My faves are the NES, the PCE, the Saturn, and the Dreamcast. We've oddly left the DC out of the debate on failed systems in this thread. The DC actually did really well in the US up until Japan pulled the plug. It was the Japanese market that had the most trouble with the DC, and there were actually some really interested games programmed by US and EU developers. This is largely a reversal of the problems with the PCE and Saturn, both of which did well in Japan and less well in the US and were dominated by Japanese developers in terms of the higher-quality output.

BigusSchmuck · 11/10/2011, 02:47 PM

QuoteWe've oddly left the DC out of the debate on failed systems in this thread. The DC actually did really well in the US up until Japan pulled the plug. It was the Japanese market that had the most trouble with the DC, and there were actually some really interested games programmed by US and EU developers. This is largely a reversal of the problems with the PCE and Saturn, both of which did well in Japan and less well in the US and were dominated by Japanese developers in terms of the higher-quality output

Yeah I definetely got down on my Dreamcast. To this day, I don't think there has been any other consoles that have sold a million units the first week it was out (9/9/99). Don't forget that thing can run most emulators like a champ too (except for snes strangely enough lolz) and homebrew! Might as well go on about the endless add ons on the genesis while we are at it.

geise · 11/10/2011, 03:11 PM

Doesn't the DC though still hold the record in Japan as the "most systems sold" on launch day? With how long it was still getting games in Japan it sure wasn't a total failure.

jlued686 · 11/10/2011, 03:17 PM

Yeah, good point about the Dreamcast. Next to the Turbo, the Dreamcast is my all-time favorite system. I've said that though the Turbo is my favorite, the Dreamcast was the best. It was the last console that I really geeked out about, subscribing to the official magazine, nabbing all the demos, and playing it obsessively. It was a true "gamer's" console, and for the year (or less) that Sega supported it, it had some amazing games. I'm not sure what could have saved it, though, other than EA signing on as a publisher and Sega not having fucked up their handling of the Saturn in the US, thus not losing assloads of cash.

DragonmasterDan · 11/10/2011, 03:22 PM

Quote from: geise on 11/10/2011, 03:11 PMDoesn't the DC though still hold the record in Japan as the "most systems sold" on launch day? With how long it was still getting games in Japan it sure wasn't a total failure.

No, they shipped only around 170,000 units. Far less than they expected to have ready, there was a very initial shortage. The PS2 and even Wii sold better on launch day.

Arkhan Asylum · 11/10/2011, 03:26 PM

http://worrydream.com/ABriefRantOnTheFutureOfInteractionDesign/

jlued686 · 11/10/2011, 03:59 PM

Quote from: Psycho Arkhan on 11/10/2011, 03:26 PMhttp://worrydream.com/ABriefRantOnTheFutureOfInteractionDesign/

Not quite sure what that article has to do with the topic at hand, but at least it's interesting. That said (and maybe a mod can split this thread and move it), the touch screen interface found on tablets and phones is a one-size-(sorta)-fits-all remedy. The alternative would be to build a new interface for every single app, game, program, etc. And there's nothing I hate more than a million accessories for my game consoles. Just gimme one that mostly does the job.

Arkhan Asylum · 11/10/2011, 04:12 PM

it has to do with the Wii/upcoming Wii-U crap, since we were talking about wii!

jlued686 · 11/10/2011, 04:39 PM

Yeah... (You really hate the Wii).

So guys, how 'bout that death of the TurboGrafx-16?

Nazi NecroPhile · 11/10/2011, 05:00 PM

Quote from: guest on 11/10/2011, 04:39 PMSo guys, how 'bout that death of the TurboGrafx-16?

'Twas more of a still birth, considering how they stumbled with it from day one. Ah well, I still love the little Turbob that could.

sheath · 11/10/2011, 07:06 PM

I think 1989 and 1990 was a pretty close race with the Genesis honestly. It wasn't until 1991 that the Genesis really started to pull away in software. Their software libraries were comparable up to about summer of 1991. Also, there was quite a bit of visibility for the TG16 on its own and even in relation to the Genesis and SNES.

DragonmasterDan · 11/10/2011, 07:28 PM

Quote from: sheath on 11/10/2011, 07:06 PMI think 1989 and 1990 was a pretty close race with the Genesis honestly. It wasn't until 1991 that the Genesis really started to pull away in software. Their software libraries were comparable up to about summer of 1991. Also, there was quite a bit of visibility for the TG16 on its own and even in relation to the Genesis and SNES.

Yep, Sonic was the big rocket that moved the Genesis permanently forward in 1991.

sheath · 11/10/2011, 07:33 PM

I don't think Sonic could have been responsible for all of those games coming out the same year. It certainly wasn't responsible for the drop off in HuCard releases that year. Really though, with the Turbo CD included the Turbo was still competitive even in 1991.

BigusSchmuck · 11/10/2011, 07:45 PM

QuoteI don't think Sonic could have been responsible for all of those games coming out the same year. It certainly wasn't responsible for the drop off in HuCard releases that year. Really though, with the Turbo CD included the Turbo was still competitive even in 1991.

I think we all agree it would have been more competitive if Nintendo didn't have such a grip on its third party developers and if we saw a U.S release of Sega arcade games like Outrun, Altered Beast and even its god awful port of Golden Axe. Or even as the article stated if we saw a Mortal Kombat exclusive for the Duo.

DragonmasterDan · 11/10/2011, 07:49 PM

Quote from: BigusSchmuck on 11/10/2011, 07:45 PMI think we all agree it would have been more competitive if Nintendo didn't have such a grip on its third party developers and if we saw a U.S release of Sega arcade games like Outrun, Altered Beast and even its god awful port of Golden Axe. Or even as the article stated if we saw a Mortal Kombat exclusive for the Duo.

Mortal Kombat didn't come out in US arcades until 1992, by then it would have been too late.

BigusSchmuck · 11/10/2011, 07:56 PM

QuoteMortal Kombat didn't come out in US arcades until 1992, by then it would have been too late.

Who knows for certain? It could have competed against the likes of the Sega CD version and stomp the piss out of it with more colors to display! We all know how much better looking the pce port of Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition compared to what the likes of the Genesis and the SNES had at the time, so why not considering Nintendo took the blood out of Mortal Kombat, changed the finishing moves and made it all wussified. We may never truly know..

DragonmasterDan · 11/10/2011, 08:00 PM

Quote from: BigusSchmuck on 11/10/2011, 07:56 PMWho knows for certain? It could have competed against the likes of the Sega CD version and stomp the piss out of it with more colors to display! We all know how much better looking the pce port of Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition compared to what the likes of the Genesis and the SNES had at the time, so why not considering Nintendo took the blood out of Mortal Kombat, changed the finishing moves and made it all wussified. We may never truly know..

By April of 1992 TTI was running the show, and they had a very limited budget and had narrowed their intended business plan to appealing to a niche audience. By the time TTI was running the show it was already too late for the Turbo to make a run at the other two big 16-bit consoles.

One other note, I suspect Mortal Kombat wouldn't have been nearly as popular if it were a Turbo exclusive.

sheath · 11/10/2011, 08:05 PM

I think that Mortal Kombat's influence on Genesis sales is almost entirely over stated. But if it had come out on the Turbo without censorship and in at least as good form as the Genesis version I would bet it would have moved more systems than actually sold that year. We really are talking about 1993 though, so we are in retro-fantasy land to think that a major third party title could be Turbo exclusive.

SignOfZeta · 11/11/2011, 12:29 AM

Quote from: BigusSchmuck on 11/10/2011, 07:56 PM
QuoteMortal Kombat didn't come out in US arcades until 1992, by then it would have been too late.
Who knows for certain? It could have competed against the likes of the Sega CD version and stomp the piss out of it with more colors to display!

First off; Mortal Kombat is shit. I wouldn't want a TG-16 that was identified with that crap series.

Leaving that aside though, I really don't see a TG-16 ver of MK being all that great. It is a very atmospheric game and the TG-16 sound chip...while its pretty good at beeps and boops, it can't really do anything very "ambient". The SNES excels in this area, and frankly I think even the Genesis is more well equipped. Of course they could have put it on CD and had great music, but then you just wouldn't have enough RAM. Even the Sega CD one loads mid-fight for when the boss changes into other characters.

QuoteWe all know how much better looking the pce port of Street Fighter 2 Champion Edition compared to what the likes of the Genesis and the SNES had at the time,

Yeah, maybe you know that. Most of us know that all three systems did about the same job. The biggest difference was the sound, and that's more of a preference thing. The most impressive thing about SFII' on PCE was just the fact that it ran at all, and held up so well in comparison to not only the MD and SFC versions but also the arcade board, which itself wasn't even developed until the PCE was a year old.

Quoteso why not considering Nintendo took the blood out of Mortal Kombat, changed the finishing moves and made it all wussified. We may never truly know..

Nintendo forcing censorship on the SNES version of MK mainly achieved one thing; it sold a lot of Genesis systems. This, combined with Sonic and EA Sports, put the Genesis on equal footing with Nintendo sales-wise, which is pretty amazing, honestly. In Japan, where nobody gave a fuck about EA or MK, the Genesis barely even existed, easily a distant fourth place in sales and in appeal.

A PCE exclusive on MK would have cost serious money for TTI. MK was on Genesis, SNES, GB, GG, and Sega CD. In order for TTI to have exclusivity they would have had to shell out millions of dollars for it...and for what? One game? MKII was already in the pipe, and there is no way TTI could afford to keep it exclusive forever. Eventually the TG-16's lock on the system would have relented, just as Sega's did when all subsequent versions of MK, even the Nintendo ones, were reverted back to full on interactive snuff porn. The same thing would have happened; the best version of MKII would have been the SNES one, and TTI wouldn't have had the money to translate the few remaining games that were released after that.

Seriously, the TG-16 was doomed. It couldn't succeed in the US unless it somehow became something it wasn't (ie: something with a lot of MK and sports shit on it) and personally I would have no appreciation of. I'm not saying NES and TTI couldn't have done a better job than they did, they sure could have, but they would always be third place.

Another thing: Nintendo having a lock on third parties...this was not a factor. Maybe Aklaim and Midway, but nobody decent. Was that shit even in effect anymore? I though it was mainly a US-only, NES-only thing. I confess to not having much knowledge about that.

spenoza · 11/11/2011, 01:52 AM

Quote from: Psycho Arkhan on 11/10/2011, 03:26 PMhttp://worrydream.com/ABriefRantOnTheFutureOfInteractionDesign/

I agree with this fellow, almost absolutely. The lack of tactile input, combined with input MASKING the damn display, which is giving you the information you are supposed to be reacting to, is really poor UI design. Then again, UI design is as much about what people want (or think they want) as it is about what works and is good for them. If you test a user interface convention and it materially saves people time and effort, but they don't like, you might as well scrap it unless you are in a position to make people use it, because if they don't like it they won't seek it out on their own.

DragonmasterDan · 11/11/2011, 05:41 AM

Quote from: SignOfZeta on 11/11/2011, 12:29 AMAnother thing: Nintendo having a lock on third parties...this was not a factor. Maybe Aklaim and Midway, but nobody decent. Was that shit even in effect anymore? I though it was mainly a US-only, NES-only thing. I confess to not having much knowledge about that.

It was a US only thing for certain.

Nintendo imposed restrictions on how many titles third parties could produce, the turnaround time for games to be manufactured (since in the US Nintendo required all licensed games to be manufactured by Nintendo) and a had rules designed to prevent companies from publishing games on multiple systems. Example, Activision had a much harder time in the days of the NES getting carts produced in a timely fashion because Nintendo wanted to make an example of them for publishing games on the SMS and 7800. By 1992 Nintendo for anti-trust related reasons started to become more lax on these restrictions and a number of third parties started publishing for the Genesis. But by 1992 it was already too late for the Turbo in the US.

jlued686 · 11/11/2011, 11:15 AM

I agree with Zeta, for the most part. By the time the big fighting game craze came around, and those games (SFII and MK) were being released on consoles, Sega and Nintendo had already pulled away from the Turbo. TTi was formed just as the Duo was released, and I remember at the time having the distinct impression that they were already on the way out, despite my love for the Duo and the games that were out at the time.

NEC, IMO, basically had to have done things better from the very beginning. TTi had a nice marketing scheme, but by then it was too little too late. If NEC had been as aggressive from the get-go, and done a better job of getting big-name third-party publishers on board right away, the fate of the Turbo might have been, at best, a cozy second place.

Arkhan Asylum · 11/11/2011, 11:34 AM

Im glad we dont have MK on the Turbob. That game fucking sucks.

The real problem is they brought over some stupid shit.

JJ and Jeff shouldn't have come since we lose the Kato and Ken of it all

We didn't get all the shooters we should've got

and no HuCard RPGs, at all.

jlued686 · 11/11/2011, 11:42 AM

Yeah, I never wept over the lack of MK back in the day. I wanted that bad ass Street Fighter 2, though! I had to settle for my shitty copy of "Fighting Street".

DragonmasterDan · 11/11/2011, 11:47 AM

Quote from: guest on 11/11/2011, 11:34 AMIm glad we dont have MK on the Turbob. That game fucking sucks.

The real problem is they brought over some stupid shit.

JJ and Jeff shouldn't have come since we lose the Kato and Ken of it all

We didn't get all the shooters we should've got

and no HuCard RPGs, at all.

It's not just what they brought over, it's that the Western developed games weren't going to impress anyone either.

Arkhan Asylum · 11/11/2011, 11:54 AM

who cares? The best NES games weren't even made by Westerners. Konami isn't round eye.

TTI should have just translated all the shooters and called it a day.

DragonmasterDan · 11/11/2011, 12:01 PM

Quote from: guest on 11/11/2011, 11:54 AMwho cares? The best NES games weren't even made by Westerners. Konami isn't round eye.

TTI should have just translated all the shooters and called it a day.

They weren't but people bought lots of terrible LJN games and they helped sell systems regardless of quality.

Arkhan Asylum · 11/11/2011, 12:05 PM

so what youre saying is we just needed a ton of shitty round-eye games, instead of just 2?

spenoza · 11/11/2011, 12:09 PM

Quote from: Psycho Arkhan on 11/11/2011, 11:34 AMIm glad we dont have MK on the Turbob. That game fucking sucks.

If MK had been released as a Turbo exclusive, reviewers and critics would have started focusing more on how crappy the play mechanics were and how frames of animation were missing and how if the game had been on the Gen or SNES it would have been much better, but since those consoles had a better game in SF2 it was no big loss.

QuoteWe didn't get all the shooters we should've got

Shooters don't sell systems, unfortunately. I'm not sure I know of any shooters that were hot-selling titles.

Quoteand no HuCard RPGs, at all.

I'm not convinced any of the HuCard RPGs released in Japan would've put up good competition for SNES or GEN RPGs.

DragonmasterDan · 11/11/2011, 12:10 PM

Quote from: guest on 11/11/2011, 12:05 PMso what youre saying is we just needed a ton of shitty round-eye games, instead of just 2?

It wouldn't have hurt, licensed games sell.

Nazi NecroPhile · 11/11/2011, 12:12 PM

Quote from: Psycho Arkhan on 11/11/2011, 11:54 AMTTI should have just translated all the shooters and called it a day.

Wouldn't have done much good, as we got many of the best shooties anyway. If people won't buy a console to play Gate of Thunder, Lords of Thunder, Soldier Blade, and Blazing Lazers, they weren't going to hop on board for Nexzr and Spriggan.

Quote from: Psycho Arkhan on 11/11/2011, 12:05 PMso what youre saying is we just needed a ton of shitty round-eye games, instead of just 2?

They needed more 'shitty round-eye games' like Beyond Shadowgate, Order of the Griffon, Shadow of the Beast, Might & Magic III and Camp California.