Religion

[Keranu]

What's everyone's religion here? I have basically been an atheist my whole life along with everyone else in my family except my mother, who is Baptist and our family only went to church for a little bit when we were all very young. For the past two years, I was always curious about religion since I didn't know much to anything about it, and I learned some of my answers for Christianity, even though I wasn't one but it's the main religion out here in America, so it seemed like the only religion I could really learn about. Around last March though, I wanted to know why there was such a big deal with Muslims and I learned about Islam and the more I read about it, the more it made sense to me and didn't disinterest me like the other religions. I still have no religion, but I do want to convert to Islam a little later in my life. I received a free Quran from a online friend recently and I thanked him greatly for it because the Quran is simply amazing with the stuff it speaks of. It even has some scientific information that science didn't even discover until much, much later, like how man is created. Post your religion and thoughts if you want.

[TJ]

I was raised Catholic, which of course means I'm now a full-blown Satanist.

I used to skip church to go to the arcade. I'm going straight to hell for videogames and it's gonna be worth every frickin' second of it.

Actually, although I was raised Catholic as a kid, it wasn't long until I realized it was for the birds and I pretty much feel that way about Christianity in general. I got to a point where I experienced, simultaneously, the best and worst year of my life at that time, and I realized that I not only reached goals and achieved good things without praying for them, but also made it through toughest times without asking for any divine influence to help. It was at that point that I knew for sure that I'd be without religion and honestly, I have not looked back nor regretted it since.

So I guess I'm an atheist, or maybe an agnostic at best. If I was going to get into any religion, I think I'd be interested in Buddhism, because it's really all about being the best self you can be. Unfortunately I think they also give up any desire for material posessions, and well, that kinda disqualifies me. So I guess I'm just gonna coast thru life on my own.

These are strictly my own views, though -- I'm not at all against anyone wishing to subscribe to whatever they wanna believe in. Whatever makes you happy and gets ya through the night, go ahead and get into it!

[Keranu]

I was raised Catholic, which of course means I'm now a full-blown Satanist.

!!!

I was like that for awhile, but maybe not quite as extreme. I always figured that religions were bullshit made up stories, but when I learned about Islam, I started to learn why believing in a religion gives you something to live for more and you can still be yourself.

[GUTS]

Raised baptist, but they were way too strict so I left when I was in my teens.  Now when I attend church it's usually a non-denominational one so I don't have to put up with any bullshit like "You're only going to heaven if you're baptised in WATER!  No sprinkling!" and all that legalistic crap.  I'm still pretty conservative, but the churches I grew up in took it too far in my opinion, I mean hell they had no problems with catholicism and all it's made up bullshit that isn't in the Bible, yet insisted that every single mormon on earth was going to hell.  I mean I totally agree that mormonism is fucking retarded, but last I checked they believed Jesus was the son of God just like every other christian.

I think if I could have had a choice I would have been born a viking since their religion is so goddamn cool.

[Keranu]

Luckily when I went to Church, they weren't strict like that and my mom isn't strict at all. I believe Mormons are wacky as well, but they can believe in what they want to believe in and I won't stop them, even if they were special underwear to protect them from demons when they sleep.

By the way, Islam believes in Jesus as well and it's quite similar to how Christians believe in him too, only a little different.

[GUTS]

Yeah I have no problems with Islam, there's some cool stuff there.  It just needs to get pulled out of the stone age and get a facelift like Christianity has had to do to some extent.  I can't imagine why on earth a woman would want to convert to islam for example, hah.

[TJ]

I think if I could have had a choice I would have been born a viking since their religion is so goddamn cool.

No shit, huh?! That'd be the way to go. Of course, I don't see any reason we couldn't just decide to pray to Odin for victory and look forward to taking part in Ragnarok, until we are slain and cross that rainbow bridge to Valhalla.

Vikings frickin' rock.

Or I suppose I could just pray to Crom, like Conan the Barbarian.

[Keranu]

Yeah I have no problems with Islam, there's some cool stuff there.  It just needs to get pulled out of the stone age and get a facelift like Christianity has had to do to some extent.  I can't imagine why on earth a woman would want to convert to islam for example, hah.

Haha, you don't actually have to dress the way typical Middle Eastern Muslims do. I'm not sure why they still do that exactly, maybe it's more of a traditional country life style thing instead of religion. I know for sure I'm not going to wear a turban every day, even though that might be pretty sweet at the same time.

[GUTS]

How could I forget about Crom, haha.

"Crom! I have never prayed to you before. I have no tongue for it. No one, not even you will remember if we were good men or bad. Why we fought or how we died. No... all that matters is that two stood against many. That's what's important. Valor pleases you Crom, so grant me one request... grant me revenge! And if you do not listen, then the HELL with you!"

They should make kids say that in school every morning.

[esteban]

I think if I could have had a choice I would have been born a viking since their religion is so goddamn cool.

No shit, huh?! That'd be the way to go. Of course, I don't see any reason we couldn't just decide to pray to Odin for victory and look forward to taking part in Ragnarok, until we are slain and cross that rainbow bridge to Valhalla.

Vikings frickin' rock.

Or I suppose I could just pray to Crom, like Conan the Barbarian.

Oh yeah. I'm intrigued by the Celtic mythos as well, they had some really spooky stuff (Samhain, human / animal sacrifice, etc.).

I'd be scared as hell if I was transported back in time and witnessed that stuff.

I pretty much had the same experiences as TJ: raised Roman Catholic, totally believed it and prayed every night as a kid. Then in 4th. grade, I started thinking about things.

My best friend was Presbyterian, so I got exposed to that. His dad was a minister (very kool -- if unstable -- dude). (Their youth group was awesome so I attended that through high school. It was all about having fun and doing community service.... no preaching.)

My mom's best friend was Jewish, so I had a blast hiding matzah crumbs and having "dreidel wars" with my psuedo-cousins.  

It wasn't until middle school that I had enough balls to disappoint my entire family by going aetheist. It was at this time that all my aunts and uncles and grandma were becoming BORN AGAIN christians (just as bad as roman catholics, methinks).

Highlight: My grandma would give me booklets and pamphlets that warned me of the dangers of Dungeons & Dragons (she tried to convince my parents not to let me play, thankfully they didn't listen to her), Iron Maiden (she thought the felt posters in my room were horrible... she didn't like DIO either), etc. etc.

THIS IS ALSO WHEN MY MOM BEFRIENDED the Jehova Witnesses and they'd come by twice a week, indefinitely (they still see her to this day, in fact). So I started reading Awake! and The Watchtower (weekly publications) and learning about JW's beliefs.

Then I started listening to Alan Watts with my dad (a public station played his old lectures on the radio) and I learned a lot about Buddhism and religion in general.

At the same time, like lots of other corny suburban kids, I got even more interested in Buddhism when Youth of Today disbanded and Ray Cappo started Shelter. Hari Krishnas and local Buddhist temples often offered free vegetarian food after some of the punk / hardcore shows I attended, so naturally I grabbed the yummy food.

This culminated in me switching to a vegan diet.

I still go to local Buddhist temples for their free vegan food. Well, you should give a donation of $5, but you don't have to. If you ever find yourself near Hacienda Heights (southern california) on a saturday, I'll tell you where you can get the BEST DAMN vegetarian food. Bless those monks! They don't proselytize either... that wouldn't be their way.

And since I'm nice to the Jehova's Witnesses and Mormons who go door-to-door in my neighborhood, I have short talks with them weekly (it's like a mini bible study, actually!)

I'm hardcore atheist, but the sociology of religion intrigues me. I'm hardcore "division of church and state" as well.

[PCEngineHell]

Atheist.
Been that way since I was like 9.I have always felt the bible was a twisted book with a set of rules written by a bunch of old men in a time period that if the wind blew the wrong way or it rained,it was because of the gods,or god.I dont buy that shit.We now know why the wind blows.
We kno wwhy we have lightning,rain,floods,so on and so forth.
The bible was a great tool for fear,and still works on plenty of"GOD FEARING" people,bu tthats the whole point isnt it,if such a god was so holy,and caring and loving,why should you have to be a so called god fearing good christian.Why should you have to feel fear,be worried of erternal damnation in hell,or whatever.Its all make believe bs fear tatics to control people.There are soem good religeons out there I think,wether I really believe in them or not,but I still recognize the change for the good they can have on people.If  adrug abuser needs god as a crutch to kick meth,so be it.Not my say or care what the hell the doper believes.They were weak to begin with,otherwise they wouldnt have turned to drugs right?
Maybe Im just being harsh? ? ?
I dont know....I live in the bible belt area,but I didnt budge on my personal beliefs,even with all the red neck penticostal and baptist homing in on atheist like me,on a mission to save my poor soul from KMFDM,Time Killers,and Phantasm.I fucking loved it when the Tall Man gave the priest the lecture in Phantasm 2.Kicked ass.If only the Tall Man was real........If only he was real and could be paid by the hour for that matter.....

[GUTS]

I just don't get athiesm, I mean even if I wasn't partial to Christianity I would still believe in some sort of higher being.

One of the main reasons I've never gotten totally away from Christianity is that I've always believed evolution is the biggest crock of shit since people believing the world is flat.  I mean the belief that over billions of years, with odds in the billions to one, that single celled organisms evolved into our perfectly ballanced and infinitely complex eco system is WAY more ridiculous than simply believing that some being beyond our comprehension created it all.  I'm not saying that you have to believe in the Bible's version, but its just crazy to me that so many educated people can believe in such a far fetched idea.

Plus athiests are usually total condescending asses (not you Steve, I totally respect you, I'm just talking in general from my experience in real life with people who proclaim athiesm) when you bring up religion, it's annoying.

[Keranu]

Just to let you guys know, Jehova witnesses are always at my door (my mom's friend was one and, well, you see) and Mormoms, mainly thank me for the Mormons because I am the idiot who always calls to get free stuff off of commercials and I couldn't pass on these Mormon movies. I have two of the same movies from the Mormons (one DVD and one recently VHS), along with another VHS tape, and I got a Free Book of Mormom from the Mormons and I enjoy talking to them when they ask for me and schedule dates. I feel sorry though, I really shouldn't waste their time since I have no interests in joining their religion at all, but hell they are hilarious and are kind enough to give me free crap.

[Keranu]

I agree with you GUTS, and this is a main reason why I became so interested in religion. I am what you would call a "believer" too, so naturally I hate skeptics and though I love what science can discover, I don't like it completely since science can only discover with so many senses and not deal with real spiritual stuff. This could be another reason why Islam sticks out so much to me because it is a religion of great spirituality and purity.

[Ninja Spirit]

I'm, Christian, but I really don't think I've shown it lately. This past August I went to church for the first time in 2 years.

When people ask what denomination I am, I'm not the kind of person who would use the words "Baptist", "Episcopalian", "Presbyterian", "Methodist", "Catholic", etc., I mean what difference does it make? You're worshipping the same God but some have their own way of doing it. Then again, all that goes back to the Reformation ages many centuries ago.

But there are some Christians that I have doubts to, these people on TV talking Bible Prophecy and setting dates. I remember when I was 12 years old, (It was June 8, 1994), one of those men on the religious TV network said that the Rapture was going to occur on June 9, as he's talking, he throws in random Bible  verse references to try to justify it. Considering it was the next day, I was worried sick all day and couldn't sleep. Then the next day, everytime I heard a noise outside like a airplane flying over the house I ran to the window. Hey I was that "Sunday School" kid that was so naive to believe anything.

What I really don't like is when they use that spiritual stuff to make a quick buck. I mean come on, those "church" informercials that come on at 2AM with that Miracle Spring water, & Prayer Cloth?
Sprinkle this water on yourself, say a few words and the next day you see a million dollars on your doorstep?

[esteban]

I'm, Christian, but I really don't think I've shown it lately. This past August I went to church for the first time in 2 years.

When people ask what denomination I am, I'm not the kind of person who would use the words "Baptist", "Episcopalian", "Presbyterian", "Methodist", "Catholic", etc., I mean what difference does it make? You're worshipping the same God but some have their own way of doing it. Then again, all that goes back to the Reformation ages many centuries ago.

I know, but folks take their different interpretations of the Bible very seriously!  

.... Considering it was the next day, I was worried sick all day and couldn't sleep. Then the next day, everytime I heard a noise outside like a airplane flying over the house I ran to the window. Hey I was that "Sunday School" kid that was so naive to believe anything.

Well, the nuns who taught Cathetcism scared us about being sinners and going to hell. We'd go to confession every other week -- I'd get so nervous during the actuall event that I  had to plan out in advance what I was going to confess to the priest. I had "stage fright" big time because they made it seem so serious and overwhelming.

What I really don't like is when they use that spiritual stuff to make a quick buck. I mean come on, those "church" informercials that come on at 2AM with that Miracle Spring water, & Prayer Cloth?
Sprinkle this water on yourself, say a few words and the next day you see a million dollars on your doorstep?

Agreed. I honestly can't believe this stuff is still on the air, because it means that it is profitable, and if its profitable, there must be tons of poor souls out there who don't know any  better. Sad.

[esteban]

I just don't get athiesm, I mean even if I wasn't partial to Christianity I would still believe in some sort of higher being.

Well, there are many different types of "atheisms"... I think many folks, like myself, subscribe to some sort of existential-atheism (popularized by Sartre a few decades ago). Basically, I could never say with absolute, scientific certainty that there is no god / higher being / spiritual afterlife / reincarnation / etc. All of those things might very well exist. Let's assume they do -- in fact, I believe that all of these things might possibly exist.

BUT here's the twist, and this is a point that many folks, even many atheists themselves, don't fully explain or fully grasp:

Atheism is living your life AS IF there is no higher, spiritual realm. This is actually a huge point. It means that atheists don't have to waste their time  wondering "is there a god?" It doesn't matter if there is a god. It doesn't matter if I'll be re-incarnated.

Why? Because we have to live our lives as best we can now, as mortals, on earth. Hopefully, most folks will live ethical, moral lives (but nothing is preventing you from doing otherwise). I take the time to say this because many folks equate atheism with "lack of morality". Hahahahahahaha. That's the funniest thing I encounter. Ethics, morality and justice exist outside of religion (they are abstract concepts, period, nothing inherently religious about them), although you'll find that many folks are confused and think that ethics & morality are inseperable from religion / spirituality.

Personally, I believe I have a duty to live an ethical, politically progressive, active life. Human rights, animal rights, worker's rights, immigrant's rights, anti-exploitation, etc. ... you get the picture. My whole moral compass is based on these principles, which are human creations. They are abstract -- and because they are abstract, they actually DO FEEL kind of "spiritual", but by this I mean that I feel that these concepts are so important that they transcend the importance of my life. They are something that people die for. Something that will effect future generations  when I'm long dead and forgotten.

So, in a funny way, I do feel that there is "something greater than me" (and it gives my life meaning, for sure) ... it is the closest I get to the "spiritual" part of my existence, but it has absolutely nothing to do with god, religion, spirituality, etc.

I'm not perfect, by any means, but I try "put my money where my mouth is" and follow my beliefs. It often creates problems (i.e. When I go out to eat with my friends, 9 times out of 10 the only thing I can get on the menu is the salad. Except in friggin' goddam North Carolina, where they put bacon and bacon grease on EVERYTHING, including the salads! Bless them! I ended up eating an early dinner ... I still had dinner w/ friends, but I nursed a soda or a tea while they ate

PET PEEVE: Religious cliques. If there is a "heaven", then I truly doubt that God will manage it like a country club or a college fraternity and say: "Sorry, members only!"
"You led an exemplarly life, but you never professed your faith to me. In fact, you never even inquired about joining!  It's a shame, really, since you'd otherwise have been a poster-boy; a positive role-model for the community. Anyway, I'm sorry, but this security guard is going to escort you off the premises now."
If heaven is run like a country club, I'd be happier in hell. You can quote me on that one

I mean the belief that over billions of years, with odds in the billions to one, that single celled organisms evolved into our perfectly ballanced and infinitely complex eco system is WAY more ridiculous than simply believing that some being beyond our comprehension created it all.  I'm not saying that you have to believe in the Bible's version, but its just crazy to me that so many educated people can believe in such a far fetched idea.

I don't give any credence to "intelligent design" theory, myself. I think it's also called "divine creation" but this term might refer to a bunch of different things.  

Also, and I'm not doing this to antagonize you, but I honestly can't believe that "intelligent design" and "creationism" are part of any school's scientific curriculum. I feel that we've taken a huge step backwards.

But, to end things on a postive note, here's something that you will love GUTS: When my grandma gave my brother here old car, she left some of her cassettes in the glove compartment. So, one day while my brother is stuck in traffic, he pops in a tape. The band is called GLAD, they are a christian born-again band, i think, and they have an AWESOME song with lyrics like this:

"I heard it on the news today, we were once monkeys swinging from trees. I read in a book today, were were swinging from the trees."

The real lyrics are much better, I'll have to see if I can find them.

UPDATE: Oh crap, it must have been a different band. Here's the album I was thinking of:
http://www.artistopia.com/Buy-Music/Album.asp?CDid=B00000DPJ0&ArtistName=Glad&AlbumName=Romans
But the track list doesn't seem to have any silly songs on it. Hmmmmm... I wish I could remember the name of the band.

[GUTS]

Yeah I see what you're saying, I think I remember everyone arguing over the whole "ethics do/do not exist outside of religion" thing on the turbo board.  Didn't that end with everybody all pissed off and nemo comparing you to caligula or something? Haha, good times!

Also, and I'm not doing this to antagonize you, but I honestly can't believe that "intelligent design" and "creationism" are part of any school's scientific curriculum. I feel that we've taken a huge step backwards.

That's ok, I totally respect your opinion on it.  BUT evolution is still just a theory, so I just think there should be some balance in what is taught since in the end both creationism and evolution are just theories.

[Keranu]

Evolution could be a quite possible theory, but it seems like schools and stuff are trying to say this is what really happened when in fact, we can't exactly prove this either, like how we can't quite prove a god exists. I could never believe in something like Scientology because when it all comes down to what creates what, there has to be one and one only, some kind of god that created something which expanded more and more. When I am ready to convert, I will dedicate myself to believing Allah is god and the only god with Muhammad being his messenger.

[Kaminari]

No offense to anyone, but when I hear about Intelligent Design being taught in schools and gaining solid political grounds in the States, it gives me the creeps and I feel damn lucky to live in my country. Evolutionism is a scientific theory; creationism is nothing but a blind act of faith. It's just impossible to ignore the countless palaeontological evidences that organic creatures (let alone humans) are the product of millions of years of natural evolution.

Creationism was imagined by people who were so afraid to exist by mistake that they decided God must have had a plan for them (read: the Universe and Life had no purpose but to ultimately lead to humanity). What a pretentious pile of monkey snot! Those people obviously had no idea how big the Universe is, and what a humongous waste of material that would be if the Universe had been created for humanity alone.

Try thinking for a second about Life from a spiritually rational perspective. Have you ever considered the possibility that God maybe created the Universe and the elements of Life by mistake, but He let it evolve to see what would come out of it, to give it and its potential organic offspring a fair chance without favouring any of them? Imagine then what God thinks when He hears humans bragging about how much "special" and "unique" they are in the Grand Scheme of Things (and failing miserably to prove it when their primary leisure is to slaughter each others)? Give the Great Maker some slack...

Believing in both God and evolutionism is certainly not contradictory, I'd even go to say it's very healthy for the mind. It gives humans a sense of humility instead of arrogance. But to be honest, I don't really care about all this crap. I'm a Taoist. The Oracle is my goddess and Neo her prophet.

PS: Qur'an is a good read. I also suggest the Bhagavad Gita and my personal favorite, the Tao Te Ching.

[mamonohunter]

The christian religion have been around me all my life but I am a atheist. I love christmas for example but I never think about what it was supposed to be about, Im only in it for Santa, christmasgifts and the other traditional things. Just like I think that buddhism is cool because of the shaolinmonks. I dont know if I ever can be taking a religion serious and thats a pity.

[esteban]

Yeah I see what you're saying, I think I remember everyone arguing over the whole "ethics do/do not exist outside of religion" thing on the turbo board.  Didn't that end with everybody all pissed off and nemo comparing you to caligula or something? Haha, good times!

Oh yes! That was crazy. At first I thought Nemo was totally joking, but then it became apparent that he was truly disgusted with certain stances I took. Hahahahaha. That was a blast. But I felt bad for Nemo, and I felt bad that I purposely antagonized folks instead of being polite. I've been buying some items from Nemo since then and it seems we are kool now, and not simply because I'm the only who will buy his old Gameboy and Sega CD FMV titles he's trying to unload.  Nemo's gotta know I love him, I've told him countless times

Back on topic: If you ever get a chance to see any of Luis Bunuel's films, do it! I've promoted Bunuel ad nauseam elsewhere so I won't go into a rant now. BUT:

He made many films that are relevant to our discussion. One of his best films is Nazarin (accent on the "i"). It's the "life of Jesus" transposed to a new context, and it just friggin' rules because Bunuel is painfully cruel, but realistic with many issues. He's got a wicked sense of humor (his surrealist roots, I think). Ultimately, I still root for the protagonist in this film, even though Bunuel pokes fun at his idealism. Thankfully, Bunuel is much more crtitical of the Church (organized religion) in his films. I think he actually digs Jesus (who I think kicks ass).

If you want a more trashy / trippy film, then go for Simon of the Desert. It's not  as masterful as Nazarin, though. Still, quite entertaining.

But Viridiana is a much better choice. Again, an excellent exploration of "morality", the Church, and hyprocrisy. Masterful.

Warning: these films are not going to be everyone's cup of tea. If you're not into religion, there are plenty of other films of his to check out: Diary of a Chambermaid, El Bruto, Los Olvidados (Steve's TOP PICK for the year), etc.

/ end rant

[GUTS]

I'll have to see if any of those are up on any torrent sites, I usually enjoy odd movies like that.  I only have a blockbuster/hollywood video close to me so I seriously doubt they have any for rent, haha.  All the little mom & pop places are here closed down years ago, it's a shame because I used to be able to rent the most obsucre movies at a couple of them.  Thank god for bittorrent!

[Keranu]

Old video stores are the greatest. We have tons of them up here in the Chicago subburbs and I hear they are a lot cheaper than other video stores in the country. The typical rent here is two older releases for $1. Some have  a really great collection of 80's movies, cheese and all, but one of my favorite video stores has been selling a lot of them off or getting rid of them .

[esteban]

I'll have to see if any of those are up on any torrent sites, I usually enjoy odd movies like that.  I only have a blockbuster/hollywood video close to me so I seriously doubt they have any for rent, haha.  All the little mom & pop places are here closed down years ago, it's a shame because I used to be able to rent the most obsucre movies at a couple of them.  Thank god for bittorrent!

You know, there's a famous short film Bunuel did with Salvador Dali -- it's called "Un Chien Andalou", it's super-famous (or should I say infamous) surrealist film. One of the first, and still one of the best.

It's rather short, and it is well known, so bittorrent might have it. "Belle de Jour" is probably Bunuel's most famous films... I think Scorcese (sp?) re-released it here in the states like 10 years ago, so that's another one that might be availabe. While Belle de Jour is good, I really don't consider it Bunuel's best (this puts me at odds with most film critics).

Many of the films in my first post are hard to come by... they were only released on video here in the states, and usually by smaller distributors. But if someone took the time to transfer a VHS to digital format, that would rule! Definitely tell me if you find anything.

I'd recommend LOS OLVIDADOS as a your first film. My family and friends like that one, even when they hate his other stuff.

Bunuel rules because he did "trashy" films with style, and he did "artsy fartsy" films absurdly, with biting humor.

OH, and here's one you've got to see:

AGUIRRE, Wrath of God -- if you like Klaus Kinski, this is a must-see. If you don't know who Kinski is, this is a must see. Werner Herzog, who directed this film, is #2 on my list of favorite directors. GUTS, I know you, I KNOW YOU WILL LOVE THIS FILM. I know it. You can probably find it at Blockbuster if you're lucky.

/rant

[PCEngineHell]

Im a Pioneerist,and my god plays 12 inch and 8 inch platters in CAV and CLV.

[GUTS]

Whoa there's actually a torrent site with that Wrath of God movie up, hopefully it has subtitles cause it looks like it's in another language.  Sweet!

[esteban]

Whoa there's actually a torrent site with that Wrath of God movie up, hopefully it has subtitles cause it looks like it's in another language.  Sweet!

Yeah, it's in german. Don't worry, even if you had to watch it without subtitles, you'd watch it to the end -- it's not a dialogue-heavy film by any means. In fact, I  don't think you "watch" this film... you "experience" this film. You will love it

And while the film is brutally awesome from the first scene, I love the way the film closes ...

[Ninja Spirit]

Want a movie about Revelation?

Watch "Years of the Beast".

That movie scared the hell out of me seriously! We watched that during VBS one summer and I had a hard time sleeping after watching that.

http://www.christianmovies.com/store/popup_image.php?pID=185

[DragonmasterDan]

I'm a little late on this thread but the whole Intelligent Design thing quite frankly bothers me as well. We can prove Evolution, can we prove the exact steps every living creature has taken to get to where it is today? No. Does that give any creedence at all to teaching Intelligent Design, NO. It's totally based on theory and faith. Something which obviously does not belong in the classroom.

[Keranu]

There is something I am curious about in evolution and maybe someone here can answer it. If we really did evolve from star matter which evolved into tons of other things eventually leading to monkeys, which are supposedly are closests ancestors, then how come there are still all of these other creatures still living? Shouldn't everything have evolved at one point or how does that work according to the theory? We still have animals living from very long ago, shouldn't they have evolved yet?

[DragonmasterDan]

There is something I am curious about in evolution and maybe someone here can answer it. If we really did evolve from star matter which evolved into tons of other things eventually leading to monkeys, which are supposedly are closests ancestors, then how come there are still all of these other creatures still living? Shouldn't everything have evolved at one point or how does that work according to the theory? We still have animals living from very long ago, shouldn't they have evolved yet?

Well ALL of those creatures aren't still living, many (and in fact most) species of apes (and early man) have become extinct and only a small handful remain alive today.

The idea of natural selection is that life with traits better adapted to its envirionment will be more likely to succeed in competition with others and it will then spread the traits that make it successful to others. Those with the supererior characteristic are better fed and better able to compete and as a result are more likely to breed and pass on these traits to their offspring, this trend continues until those without the new dominant trait fork off and breed only with their own or intermix with the dominant eventually becoming extinct. Many of these animals have evolved but not necessarily in massive steps over the years into their current state today.

 For an animal to become extinct it has to be throughly ravaged by predators, disease, envirionmental or out-competed. In this day in age where we as humans raise livestock and field crops to feed society we don't fight with monkeys for bannanas forcing them to starvation and eventual extinction.

Humans haven't really been competing with apes directly for food and resources for thousands of years. Neanderthals are a good example of what happens when something loses out due to competetion, eventually humans out hunted and out competed neaderthals and ultimately forced them to extinction.

With that said many species of apes are close to extinction due to hunting and poaching not due to being out-done by man.

[ParanoiaDragon]

I'm a Jehovah's Witness.  I became one June 19, 1993.  It's the only religion that's ever made sense to me.  

For instance, we don't celebrate the holidays, why, most of them are pagan in origin.  It doesn't make sense to me, to be a Christian, & celebrate various non-Christian holidays, like Halloween, Christmas, Easter, Valentines days, etc.  

Obvioulsy there's ones like Presidents day that are totally evil, cuz Presidents day was started in worship of the god Hamakas, & the Hamakalites would sacrifice their parents & children, then finally themselves, to commemerate the day that Hamakas came to be.  Needless to say, the Hamakalites died off pretty quick, but somehow the holiday survived these 3, 458 years, 8 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 14 minutes, & 23 seconds since the first, & last sacrifice to Hamakas

Anyways, seriously now, another thing I don't believe in is a fiery burning hell, since the Bible doesn't teach that there is one.  Infact, the Bible even says that the soul that is sinning, it itself will die.  And everyone, including myself, is a sinner, we all make mistakes, so I believe our souls die, not live on in torment in hell, or in some imaginary bliss on a cloud.  As it is, the original meaning of the word sheol(hell) just means the common man's grave.  It teaches, that after Armageddon, there will be a ressurection of the righteous AND the unrighteous.  And there would be a 1000 year reign of peace & tranquility, where we grow towards perfection, but there will be some, that won't even try to be good, & they will perish.

I obvioulsy don't celebrate birthdays, mainly because, there's 2 examples in the Bible, involving birthdays, & they both ended up in disaster.  And it's interesting, recently, my brother in law & wife were doing research on birthdays, & it looks like there was a pagan background to the cake & candles.  As a Christian, it's amazing how many things have survived from Babylon, among other pagan nations.

I also believe the Bible doesn't teach that God, Christ, & the holy spirit are one.  From what I understand, God is the Father, 1 entity, Jesus, is his son(who actually prayed to God, if he were God, why would he pray to himself), & the holy spirit, is just God's power, or his active force.

When I think of more, that seperates my beliefs from other Christians, I'll write them down, but I gotta head over to Trader Joe's.

Oh yeah, nobody knows the day or the hour of Armageddon, not even the Son, only the Father.  So nobody, can say for sure, an exact date of when it will happen(even though I'm sure there are JW's that have made that mistake before, I don't expect perfection).  Also, there are things the Bible was right about, a loooooooong time before anybody ever discovered them.  Like the world being a sphere, & it hanging from nothing, as opposed to the views of it being flat, or on a turtles back, etc.  Also there were things the Jews, & later Christians were required to do, to keep them from getting sick, because other nations, still hadn't figured out how diseases were spread.  That's another reason why I believe in the Bible.  Not to mention, the state things are in now worldwide, are exactly as the Bible predicted.  Infact, I believe soon, religion is pretty much going to disapear.  That's what the Bible predicts, because the beast, will turn on Babylon the Great.  The beast is the governments, & Babylon the Great is the worlds religions, which has been commiting fornication with the nations(think about things like the Pope supporting Hitler).  So, I don't expect religion to be as free as it is, soon.

Ok, another thing, when the Bible says to fear God, it doesn't mean in a morbid way.  It means to fear displeasing him, letting him down.  Like how you wouldn't want to make your mate sad, or you brother, or friend, etc.  Fearing God sounds totally reasonable from that standpoint.  He truly is a God of love.  If you think he was wrathful in the Hebrew scriptures, it's because he always had a reason for destroying certain nations, that goes without saying, but I said it anyways   Plus, like I said before, there is no eternal torment(which I consider very unloving).  Even the references to Gehenna & the lake of fire are not literal.  Nor is Jesus actually going to physically come down with the clouds, during the 2nd coming, which alot of people believe, he will litteraly apear before everyone to see in some kind of physical form.  

Also, I believe God does not send someone to hell, if they don't get baptized, etc.  Baptism is a person's choice.  We weren't made as robots without a free will.  God gave us free will, & allows us to make our own descisions.  If we decide it is right to serve him, he is pleased ofcoarse.  And another thing that bothers me about some religions, is that they teach that God goes around making things happen.  Like when someone says that God has taken your baby.  No, the Bible states that time & unforeseen occurance befall us all.  That's not to say he never helps us.  And even then, I believe we need to take care of ourselves, & not expect divine intervention, like he's going to just wipe someones debt clean, or miraculously save someones life.  Not that it doesn't happen, but "faith without works is dead".  In otherwords, we can't just get along in life by faith alone, we have to actually work for what we want.  And if what we want is also what he wants, then he may help us.  But when he does help us, it's not always right away from our standpoint.  He is a being that's been around forever, timeless, so time is different to him.  And even then, that doesn't mean he helps you in the way you are expecting.  But I give God credit all the time in the dealing of my life.

Some are more obvious, like me finding my wife.  Both of us had problems with depression, & were going thru alot of problems, but we both believe that God brought us together, because we ended up helping eachother.  It's alot more complicated then that ofcoarse, but that's 1 example when I deffinitly give God credit.  Another is when we almost lost my mom, & some very strange & you might actually say miraculous things happened, all by chance, but I give him credit anyways.

[ParanoiaDragon]

Oh yeah, & I'm no judge, but, I'm pretty sure every TV envangelist is in it for a quick buck(or many quick bucks the way so many people fall for that stuff )

Oh, one interesting thing, back when I was in high school, my science teacher tought evolution as a theory, along with creation as a theory!  That was a great class, since it wasn't one sided!  When it came to evolution, my answer's were always "the book says that such & such came to be via....".  I'll never forget that

BTW, some other things.  I don't believe in creationism, no Jehovah's Witness does(unless they don't know what it means).  Creationism, unless I'm wrong, is that the world was made in 7 literal human days.  I don't believe that.  I believe that those 7 days could of been thousands of years long.  What is a day to God?  Pretty fricken long, if you ask me!  Heck, we don't even know for sure how old the earth is, in the begining, before the 7 creative days, the earth was formless & void.  So how long was it sitting there before those days?  No one knows an exact date, but, it shows that this world is older then 6000+ years(with us still be in the 7th day, the day of rest).

Also, if anyone thinks were a cult, or a sect.  Your both wrong.  We don't follow any human(I don't even know who it'd be that we follow).  We just follow God, plain & simple.  As for being a sect, once again, we're not.  The original guy who basically started the JW's checked out several religions, but ended up doing his own studying with some people, which got bigger & bigger over the years.  I mean, if we're a sect, then so is every single Christian religion, including Catholic's, since the Catholic's were not the first Christian religion.  They were just Christians, period.  And even then, they could be considered a sect from the Jew's, since you could say they sectioned off from them.

Another thing I thought of.  For some odd reason, people that believe in evolution, have this notion that it's not possible for someone to believe in aliens, if they believe in creation.  Once again, your wrong.  I believe it's possible for aliens to exist.  Where in the Bible does it say that they don't?  Nowhere.  God could've created countless worlds in countless solar systems, etc.  Filled with alien life, we don't know for sure.  I personally don't think they exist, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong, since like I said, there's nothing to say that they don't.

[ParanoiaDragon]

I'm a little late on this thread but the whole Intelligent Design thing quite frankly bothers me as well. We can prove Evolution, can we prove the exact steps every living creature has taken to get to where it is today? No. Does that give any creedence at all to teaching Intelligent Design, NO. It's totally based on theory and faith. Something which obviously does not belong in the classroom.

I can say the exact same thing about evolution, that it's all based on faith & theory, while the Bible is based on hardcore fact.  There's really no faith involved in believing in intelligent design.  BTW, I also believe that it's possible for evolution in one's own kind.  But fish, can't evolve into a monkey.

[GUTS]

Paranoia that was interesting, personally I've always thought jehovah's witness's were a little crazy and WAY over zealous with the not-celebrating-birthdays-or-holidays thing, but it was really cool to read your thoughts on stuff since most of it I can understand where you're coming from after you laid it out.  I love reading personal testamonials of what people believe in, it really makes a lot more sense when you hear it from an individual who really believes it as opposed to just reading about a religion's doctrine or belief systm in general.

[Keranu]

Ahh, I was waiting for your post here, Paranoia since I knew you were religious, just had no idea you were a Jehova! I always just thought you were a hardcore Catholic or something. You made a nice post and I now know and respect Jehova's Witnesses more now because of it. I didn't know you guys were the kind of people who prefer to just strictly believe in god, which is a reason why I love Islam because with Islam you don't need to contact with the holy ghost to talk to god, or use Hindu statues, or do anything like that; all you must do is pray to Allah and Allah only, nothing else. God is the most important part and should be what you're supposed to focus on most. Of course I love Islam for many other reasons, but this is just one nice one to point out.

[ParanoiaDragon]

Yeah, people always have the wrong idea about us.  But, I try to just live my life, treating people with respect(though, I'm imperfect, so I can lose my cool), & let them see that I'm actually a decent guy.  I'm sure there are some Witnesses that are really wierd, & ones that are fake Witnesses(people, usually teenager's, that pretend to be a JW, just to get with some girl, or to make their parents happy, which is NOT a reason to be of any religion).  And I'm sure plenty of people meet some of those JW's & get the wrong idea, then they play the telephone game(I met a Witness, who doesn't do such & such........purple monkey dishwasher).

And we do believe Jesus is important, just that, he is not God, but God's son, 2 totally seperate entities.  It does say to pray thru Jesus, to Jehovah, so like at the end of my prayer, I'll say in your son's name, or thru Jesus Christ, & then say amen.  But we do not pray TO Jesus.  That'd be pointless & probably considered blasphemous, since he ain't God.

[Keranu]

That's cool though because God is what counts. Islam believes and respects Jesus as well as the prophet he was, which is something quite a few people don't seem to know.

[TR0N]

No body expects the spanish inquisition!

oops my bad derailed thread

[GUTS]

HAHA I loved those Spanish Inquisition skits, awesome stuff.

[esteban]

HAHA I loved those Spanish Inquisition skits, awesome stuff.

fluffy pillows!

[ParanoiaDragon]

Oh, since nobody mentioned it, I'll just make sure everyone know I was kidding as to the origin of Presidents day, with Hamakas & the Hamakalites.

[DragonmasterDan]

I can say the exact same thing about evolution, that it's all based on faith & theory, while the Bible is based on hardcore fact.  There's really no faith involved in believing in intelligent design.  BTW, I also believe that it's possible for evolution in one's own kind.  But fish, can't evolve into a monkey.

There's faith involved in intelligence design in the sense that you believe some inteligent force designed everything. That's why there is so much of a controversy about it.

Also the idea of evolution isn't that monkey's evolved from fish, it's a gradual process over million and even billions of years that can quite easily be studied by looking at things like genetic evidence of how related various types of animals are. There is scientific fact behind evolution, is every single step between every living creature known. No, and it never will be due to the fact that a lot of the fossil records are lost in the seas of time. But the basic concept of evolution is more than just theory, the steps that evolution has gone through over the years as I said aren't totally known. But most of evolution is fact. There isn't any idea of "faith" behind the fact that humans and apes are related for example.

I won't that some of what is taught regarding evolution can't totally be proven and is theory, but the basic principle behind it (that animals evolved from more simple animals basically by mutation of traits which became beneficial via natural selection) is scientific fact beyond a reasonable doubt.

[ParanoiaDragon]

I have no doubt & no problem knowing that humans & apes have some of the same genes or whatever, I still say, from my point of view that takes alot of faith to believe that's our ancestor.  I know the theory isn't fish to apes, I was just shortening it.  Lot's of animals have similar traits & genes & whatever, that's fine, that still doesn't say to me, we must've come from this, that came from that, etc.  And just so you know, I'm not trying to be insulting or even debate really, I'm just speaking from my POV, what I believe  

As for intelligent design, I don't need faith to know God is there, everything on earth, shows me that there is a designer, whether it be a computer, with a human designer, or a flower with a heavenly designer.

[OldRover]

Ooh fun...a religious thread. These things bring out the asshole in me in ways you couldn't possibly imagine, so I'll try to keep it a bit civil this time.

I am a combination of many paths. To put a label on my personal views, you'd have to say I was an Atheist/Christian/Pagan/Neo-Satanist.

Atheist: I do not believe in a God whatsoever. I have no need for the spiritual safety blanket, nor the threat of godly vengeance.
Christian: Jesus was a very good teacher with a simple message: love, peace, righteousness, and justice. I try to live my life with these ideals.
Pagan: It is nature, not some divine being, that ultimately rules over us. Life is a continual cycle of birth, death, and rebirth. If we are kind to nature, it is kind to us...and vice versa.
Neo-Satanist: Respect yourself and those you love, but show no mercy for the assholes. Take responsibility for your own life and your own shortcomings, don't blame others for your faults. Never harm anyone unless they harm you or those you love. NEVER HARM A CHILD IN ANY WAY.

I was raised Roman Catholic. Bible study and Sundays chool were both things I grew up with. When I became 18 years old, I shed the dogma of Catholicism and started studying world religions. I've read a great number of holy books, and have come to the conclusion that although many of them are quite inspirational, just about all of them are complete BS when it all comes down to the facts. Even when I was growing up, I had an inquisitive mind, and I constantly questioned the Bible, which as you can imagine did nothing more than piss off the people who ran the Sunday school and Bible study sessions. If the book was so perfect, surely it could stand up to scrutiny, right? Wrong...it doesn't, and that's one of the many reasons I got away from the religion. The acts of the Popes have redoubled my opinion that I did the right thing in leaving Catholicism far behind.

I've studied no less than 100 religions in the 12 years I've dedicated to the task...from Santaria to Asatru to Islam to Wicca to Lutheranism to Shinto...I've tried to cover them all. I've documented countless parallels between world religions, making special studies of issues such as the "beginning of the world" and "the end of the world"...each religion has their own story to tell on the subject. However, what never ceases to amaze me is how much the core of Christianity has absorbed from other, much older religions. No other religion that is documented today is so heavily influenced by other religions. There are very few religions younger than Christianity, which didn't even become a major religion until about 360CE (Constantine made it the state religion of Rome, and it spread from there). Almost half of the religious concepts come from Judaism, many come from Egypt, and some come from scattered smaller religions that the Catholics labelled "pagan" ("pagan" means "country-dweller", a name given to these people by the Catholics), especially, as Paranoia Dragon has stated, major holidays. Only Orthodox Christianity and Roman Catholicism existed at the time. Skip ahead to the 16th century...a man named Martin Luther seceeded from the Catholic church, creating the first Protestant religion, Lutheranism. Other Protestant religions formed from that, and the rest is history. but what REALLY bothers me...it bothered me all throughout growing up and it bothers me now...is how SO MANY PEOPLE take the Bible seriously. About the only thing in the Bible to take seriously is the good things that Jesus taught...the rest is either complete bunk or a history lesson. Many modern-day Christians, however, seem to have an obsession with using the Bible as a weapon, picking and choosing convenient phrases from the book and ignoring the rest. This is especially bad amongst Catholics (I know, remember, this is how I was raised!). The ironic part is that for every point in the Bible, somewhere in the Bible there's a counterpoint. This makes it easy for any Christian to pull an argument from the Bible, claiming that their religion supports their viewpoint. For example: in the Old Testament, beating your child (even killing your child) is condoned. However, in the New Testament, Jesus clearly condemns it (depends on the version you read though...the NIV, for example, has a different wording on this subject). The deeper message of the "miracles" that Jesus performed has been destroyed, replaced with nonsensical mysticism that completely misses the mark. For example: when Jesus fed many hungry people from only a little food, it had nothing to do with him magically making more food and wine appear; he taught these many people how to share with each other, giving everyone a portion of the food. The deeper meaning of this is completely lost by the mystical ideal of him magically creating more food.

Now, getting down to some brass tacks here...as far as I'm concerned, there's only one religion out there that is complete BS, and that's Scientology. There are other religions with some screws loose (Wicca and Methodism, for example), but Scientology is missing more than screws...it's missing the whole engine. There's so much to tell about this, way more than I feel like writing out here. As for specific people...ALL Fundamentalists are COMPLETE morons, whether it be a Muslim, a Christian, a Buddhist, no matter...ALL fundamentalists are morons. Plain and simple. If you're a fundie, you're my enemy.

A few specific messages to followers of specific types of religions:

Christians: your Bible is not literal truth; don't take it as such, and don't try to push it onto those of us who don't want it. And besides...if it was, you'd be some of the sorriest-looking saps in the world...you'd be blind, limbless, and most of you would be dead!
Wiccans: your religion is based in theistic Satanism; stop trying to cover this fact up. Gardner was a complete idiot. We all know the routine: "We're not Satanists!" is the chant you like to use. No one accused you of it...when you make the chant of "We're not Satanists!", you draw attention to the idea that hey, maybe you ARE!
Neo-Satanists: stop trying to be dark, gloomy psuedo-intellectuals. Your religion (although it's not really a religion, more of a philosophy) is all about having FUN in your lives...start doing it!
Atheists: although not a religion, many of you handle it like it is. Knock it the fuck off. A rabid Atheist promoting Atheism is no different than a rabid Christian promoting Christianity or a rabid Wiccan promoting Wicca. Some people NEED religion...feel lucky you do not.

And a final note to anyone who supports this ID movement...keep in mind that ID has zero scientific evidence whatsoever. Evolution is accepted scientific fact, and although scientists have disagreements about specific species and other details, the core concept as a whole has been accepted fact for decades now. If you want ID to be taught, great...teach it in your Philosophy classes where it belongs. ID is NOT SCIENCE and NEVER WILL BE.

Okay, that's enough from me for now. We now return you to your regularly scheduled forum already in progress.

[ParanoiaDragon]

Alright, that's it, let's duke it out   Anyways, in my opinion, I see nothing but 100% fact of ID, it's obvious, & it's everywhere.  But from your viewpoint, you see evolution as 100% fact, & being obvious & everywhere.  And anytime anyone's tried to say one scripture ends up contradicting another, has never been able to prove it to me, with all the different scriptures, different people view them in different ways, like in the Hebrew scriptures, it deffinitly doesn't say to beat or even kill your child, I'm not even sure which version, out of the millions of different Bibles out there, that you read that.  One thing I do agree with you on, is that there is sooooooo much in the Christian religions, that takes stuff from "pagan" religions, like the worship of the saints, & Mary, all pagan stuff.  Christmas, originaly a pagan holiday, Jesus wasn't even born in December, more like October or September, since the shepards were out with there flock at the time......not exactly something they'd be doing, in that area of the world, in December   There's plenty of pagan stuff in Christendom, & it's sad, that's why I avoid Christendom, but I also don't like going around telling everybody, hey, you better stop doing such & such, because it's pagan.  Besides that fact that people believe what they want, & it's not my job to tell them they're wrong.  When we go door to door, if they want to listen, great, if not, that's there choice.  If the subject comes up, I might get into it.  I don't want to make things worse for a person by just blurting out, hey, that's pagan!  Anyways, it's all good, we all have our own views on life, that we each believe to be 100% fact.

[PCEngineHell]

nodtveidt
completelly agree with you here.Cant stand the crowd of people who say they are athiest just to make a statement.I feel most religions are designed to convert,and take away the individualness of the person,and to retain some kind of control over something or someone,if not the group of worshippers themselves.
Religion is just a tool for conformist.Conformist breed in weakness.
I also dont worry wether there is something waiting there for me when Im dead.I dont have that fear of where I will be going,and dont really think Ill be going anywhere.I think I will be dead.Im just fine with that.The idea of eternal life scares me for that matter.

[GUTS]

I love you guys who shit all over religious people like they're sheep or stupid or something.  Did you know that even fucking Einstein believed in God?  Choosing to reject religion is just as narrow minded and sheeplike as accepting it.

[OldRover]

Well, I most certainly don't shit on people who follow a religion. Religion serves its purpose for many people. Imagine what kind of world we'd live in if no one had fear of Hell...murderous rampages, anyone? Religion has its advantages too...imagine, if you will, a 75 year old woman who just lost her husband of 55 years. She believes that she will see him again in Heaven, and that comforts her. Who are you to go up to her and tell her that she's wrong and a fool? Let her enjoy the last shreds of comfort she might have! In cases like this, religion can be a very useful tool. However, I am the kind of person who will challenge most anything, and religion happens to be a VERY large target.

PD, one thing I've never been able to understand is why "pagan" traditions are "bad". I've asked this of a great number of people and have never gotten a response beyond one of two things: "The Bible says it's bad!" or "It's just bad mmmkay?". The way I see that kind of thing, it's similar to saying "don't hang out with that guy, he's black". It just bothers me, because it's prejudice. Also, it would not be possible to "prove" to you that Scriptures contradict each other, since you are predisposed to believing the Bible over everything else, so such an effort is wasted and you can "explain it away"...just as I can "explain away" an opposing viewpoint.

Some history for y'all...Christmas itself is a Christian holiday. The pagan holiday is Yule (winter solstice), and is celebrated 3 to 4 days earlier. But that's not all...December 25th was used because it was also used in Egypt as the birthday of Horus. In order to shut out the stories of Horus, they needed to move Jesus' birthday to December 25th (this was also done to fit the prophecies). The Christmas Tree is a derivation of the Yule Tree and was first adapted by the Germans in the 16th century, iirc (in the Bible, there's a passage about greenery being kept inside the home as being forbidden, because it was pagan). Easter, a Christian holiday, is celebrated exactly one week after Eostre, the spring equinox. Halloween is the one a lot of people get "spooked" about. Originally called Samhain, this was a day of reflection on the past, as it was the last day of the calendar year. It was a day to celebrate the lives of those who had passed on from this world. In some cultures, they believed the spirits of children roamed the lands, playing tricks on people. To satisfy the childrens' spirits, people would put an offering of sweets on their doorstep. This is where the "trick or treat" tradition comes from. Wearing costumes was part of great shows the ancient people put on as a show of respect for their deceased loved ones. Ironically, early Christians perverted this ritual, claiming that demons walked the earth on Samhain, and that by dressing as a demon yourself, they would leave you alone. It's no wonder this turned into "the devil's holiday".

GUTS: Choosing to reject religion isn't narrow-minded. One's personal beliefs are not your place to judge, nor can they be compared to others. A great number of scientists throughout history have been religious, and have studied to figure out "God's world and how it works". The concepts are not incompatible whatsoever, even if the frothing Atheists believe they are. Just because Einstein was religious doesn't mean he was right...all we know is that he's dead now, and that's scientific fact.