ACD games... feasible?

[OldRover]

Jungle Bros

wayback.frozenutopia.com/projects.html

[Arkhan Asylum]

You could always cut the sprite animations down some frames to save space. ;)   There's a reason a lot of games have only a few frames.

So, when you load everything sprite wise on the fly, what exactly do you mean?

You're using CD audio, so I am assuming you aren't loading sprites from CD as you need them like you see in some games where the background is loaded on the fly and if you remove the disc, the background ceases to exist. 

You could probably try compressing the graphics all down and only decompress/load up precisely what is needed.  Given what I've seen of Jungle Bros so far, you might be able to do that to get away with some space savings since there isn't that much crap going on all at once.   Do you have ADPCM RAM space available?  Shove stuff there if you aren't using it.


You'd just have to be really-really organized and clever/careful about how you're doing all of it.

[OldRover]

I think cutting down on sprite frames is the only way it'd work in regular system RAM... but then we're limiting the game's appearance, and one of lord_cack's driving points of this game is to have a lot of animation.

Since there are so many frames of sprite animation, each new frame a sprite has is loaded in realtime into VRAM with a load_vram() call. Each enemy has its own unique area in VRAM where its frames get loaded into. There's too many frames to load everything into VRAM at once and just change the sprite's pattern pointer. Of course, that means that all the sprite frames have to be kept in system RAM, which eats up space pretty quickly. The ADPCM RAM is mostly used for sound effects already so that option is out. Also, I used ADPCM RAM to VRAM transfers for some of MSR's cutscenes and the speed is atrocious.

Unfortunately, the project already is pretty well organized; I literally spent weeks ahead of the demo show making sure things could fit properly and nothing was wasted. The current scheme for sprite frames is about as efficient as it gets, I've got VRAM mapped out to the byte, and this project is why I went into pceas's code and modified it to send the proc size list to stdout... that allowed me to go into JB's code and do function shuffling until everything fit neatly with minimal space waste since pceas doesn't do this automatically, nor does it allow procs to cross bank boundaries. At this point, the only thing that would really help is to start converting finalized functions to inline assembly... but since we're already short on memory and we still have things to add, downsizing the code would just give more space to fill the void with more graphics, so we'll soon be right back where we were before... a slightly more functional game. Might not be worth it to do things that way since we have the ACD to utilize, which removes 95% of these problems.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Tons of animation frames from the get-go should have screamed "HuCard or Arcade CD", lol.


maybe see how stuff looks with some frames cut out before you make the jump to committing to a larger project and new format.

[OldRover]

Hucard would have been nicer, honestly. Of course, then we'd have to kick PD's butt into the realm of PSG. I honestly think that the game would fit on a hucard quite nicely when all is said and done. But regardless, it wouldn't take long to restructure it to utilize the ACD. All of the graphics data currently in the program would simply be moved to a data overlay, which would be transferred to the ACD RAM banks during the "we stole this from the Genesis" startup screen. There would be a few minor code changes in the FSMs to account for copying the data from ACD RAM instead of system RAM. The only real issue we'd run into is that it would be best to do this in one go rather than as a progressive conversion... that is to say, have ALL of the graphics and maps ready ahead of time so I can just do one big data overlay at once instead of adding to it incrementally and updating transfer points over and over again. That kind of hassle is one of the things that stalled MSR's translations. Lessons have been learned from that.

[cabbage]

I don't understand why you think compression of sprites data would not help. Couldn't you load compressed graphics data into the sys ram, thus affording you more frames in the limited space you have, and decompress them "on the fly" as they are loaded into VRAM? There would be a bit of extra processing overhead, but also there are some pretty quick algorithms to be used on pce...

[Arkhan Asylum]

My guess about that is that too many are needed at once even in that scenario.  At least that's what I assumed was meant.

[JoshTurboTrollX]

I didn't read this whole thread, but would it be possible to do a complete game as just SCD, then add a few "Levels" or "Sprites" or a cutscene or something for those that venture into the ACD realm?

Sorry if this is a duplicate question, I'm just an ass that clicks on the last page......

[Arkhan Asylum]

You could fiddle around with shit like that, sure. 

[Jammaniaclord]

I would gladly pitch in if someone was stsrting a kickstarter.com budget to make an arcade card game. I have an arcade card, and have been dying to see some one make a new ACD game to utilize a format that died shortly after it was born. I say go for it!!

[esteban]

Jammaniaclord!

[Jammaniaclord]

Jammaniaclord!

How are you Esteban?! = )

[Bardoly]

I just had a weird thought.

Would there be a possible way that a game could be made that could utilize the additional RAM of an Arcade Card Pro combined with the internal RAM of a Duo?  I mean, this would be a combined total RAM which would be higher than normal Arcade Card game requirements - higher than an Arcade Card Duo combined with a Duo.

I am not a programmer, so I have no clue if my above thought is feasible in any way.

[SignOfZeta]

Sure, but again, few homebrew programmers (ie: none) can even max out the SCD format, few pros could max out the AC back in the day, so the idea of anyone needing *more* than an Arcade Card is kind if unrealistic.

Honestly, the AC is stupid huge for an 8 bit system. Way more than enough.

[OldRover]

I just had a weird thought.

Would there be a possible way that a game could be made that could utilize the additional RAM of an Arcade Card Pro combined with the internal RAM of a Duo?  I mean, this would be a combined total RAM which would be higher than normal Arcade Card game requirements - higher than an Arcade Card Duo combined with a Duo.

I am not a programmer, so I have no clue if my above thought is feasible in any way.

When you use the ACD, you're already doing this. The ACD RAM is just a storage area; only the normal system RAM (the 256KB Duo RAM) can be used to run a program. So basically, you can use the system RAM for pretty much *just* running code, and use the ACD RAM for holding graphics and such.

[NecroPhile]

He means using the 2mb Duo system ram and the extra 1.5mb ram of the AC Pro, for a total of 19.5mb instead of the AC's normal 18mb.

[OldRover]

OK I see what he's saying. The answer is no.

[Vecanti]

He means using the 2mb Duo system ram and the extra 1.5mb ram of the AC Pro, for a total of 19.5mb instead of the AC's normal 18mb.

Then you would have to make an Arcade Card Duo Pro that is 19.5mb for the suitcase systems, and then someone would would say, "What if I stick my Arcade Card Duo Pro in my Duo so I have 22.5mb!"  Then you would have to make an Arcade Card Duo Pro Duo for the suitcases.  And if someone stuck that in their Duo!?!  --> Arcade Duo Card Duo Pro Duo!! 24.5mb!! This could go on a while. 

[TheClash603]

Sure, but again, few homebrew programmers (ie: none) can even max out the SCD format, few pros could max out the AC back in the day, so the idea of anyone needing *more* than an Arcade Card is kind if unrealistic.

Honestly, the AC is stupid huge for an 8 16 bit system. Way more than enough.

FIXED 

[CrackTiger]

Sure, but again, few homebrew programmers (ie: none) can even max out the SCD format, few pros could max out the AC back in the day, so the idea of anyone needing *more* than an Arcade Card is kind if unrealistic.

Honestly, the AC is stupid huge for an 8 bit system. Way more than enough.

How much less space does 8-bit use compared to 16-bit?

As has been explained before, homebrewers already exceeded the capacity of Super CD. Mysterious Song wouldn't need to load battles if it had more space. Another upcoming game hit a roadblock because the content for single stages couldn't fit within 2 megs.

[Tatsujin]

There's no such thing like too much of RAM.

Doesn't matter if 8 or 16bit, as long it outruns any other 16bitters.

Sapphire approved

[Arkhan Asylum]

How much less space does 8-bit use compared to 16-bit?

This is a loaded question.

As has been explained before, homebrewers already exceeded the capacity of Super CD. Mysterious Song wouldn't need to load battles if it had more space.

Neither would a lot of RPGs on the PCE SCD.  It doesn't mean the capacity was exceeded.  It just means it's working within the normal constraints of the system. 

Another upcoming game hit a roadblock because the content for single stages couldn't fit within 2 megs.

This again doesn't always immediately justify the extra space use. 

[CrackTiger]

How much less space does 8-bit use compared to 16-bit?

This is a loaded question.

Why? What do you think he meant?

As has been explained before, homebrewers already exceeded the capacity of Super CD. Mysterious Song wouldn't need to load battles if it had more space. 

Neither would a lot of RPGs on the PCE SCD.  It doesn't mean the capacity was exceeded.  It just means it's working within the normal constraints of the system.

Exactly, there's no need to limit yourself to the constraints of the outdated formats. Just as there's no need to require Super CD/System 3 if the game you want to make comfortably fits within the constraints if CD2. Unless just to have a system card warning screen, in which case it seems totally worth it to me. Couldn't Insanity have been released as a CD2 game?

Another upcoming game hit a roadblock because the content for single stages couldn't fit within 2 megs.

This again doesn't always immediately justify the extra space use.

That's why I'm talking about instances where what you want to include doesn't fit within the smaller official formats. If you make a HuCard game and polish it off and get it running as efficiently as you can and it comes in at around 6 megs, there's no reason today to cut it down to 3 megs.

The PC Engine CD officially supports up to 18 megs per load. I agree that there's no point in creating new larger formats, but the jump to ACD isn't a jump to 18 megs full of content at all times. It only means 2+ megs at times. If a programmer doesn't yet have the skills to be efficient enough to make the game they are building take up as little space as possible, then the ACD format is perfect, as long as operating it isn't so challenging that it negates its use. I appreciate the art of crafting games for tiny rom sizes, but games today aren't built around the cost of memory.

It took the "pros" an extra 8 megs to fit the SNES SSFII onto Genesis. I don't know why anyone would demand more from honebrewers.

[OldMan]

How much less space does 8-bit use compared to 16-bit?

A byte is a byte is 8 bits. Question makes no sense, actually.
Kinda like saying how much less space does 4 quarts take compared to a gallon.
The CPU is still limited by the size of the address bus (and -not- the data bus size)

Couldn't Insanity have been released as a CD2 game?

Actually, no. It comes in a bit over 128K, which is the limit on the CD 2 card for RAM.

The PC Engine CD officially supports up to 18 megs per load.

First, that's 18M *bits*...or 2.25 M bytes.
Second, part of that total is adcpm memory and VRAM. It's not like you can load 2.25 Mbytes of code.

[spenoza]

Couldn't Insanity have been released as a CD2 game?

Actually, no. It comes in a bit over 128K, which is the limit on the CD 2 card for RAM.

I would imagine it is technically possible Insanity could have been optimized to fit within the CD2 RAM size, but that is mostly speculation. I'm sure a lot of homebrew programming and assets could be shrunk and optimized a good bit, but we lack the quality tools the pros had at the time and we lack the full-time jobs devoted to using those tools to get optimal results  : )

Within the scope of the available tools, I think you guys are doing pretty well, all things considered.

[OldRover]

The develo kit was found in the wild quite some time ago, so I'm pretty sure that the official tools are already available to us. The only thing the average developer doesn't have is the hardware, so the official tools don't do us much good, but that doesn't really matter... the huc/pceas toolchain is better than the official devkit in some ways anyway. What makes things a challenge is HuC's bloat due to a lack of optimization and way too much reliance on macros. Hand-optimizing the resulting code fixes those issues, but you need to already have extensive knowledge of assembly to do that, and at that point, you might as well just code it in assembly anyway.

[Arkhan Asylum]

I have the develo kit, and the hardware, and it doesn't do much of anything except amuse me for about an hour.


The book however, is wildly useful.   You can thank Develo for Squirrel.

[BigusSchmuck]

I have the develo kit, and the hardware, and it doesn't do much of anything except amuse me for about an hour.


The book however, is wildly useful.   You can thank Develo for Squirrel.

I wants the book, is there a pdf version of it somewhere out there?

[Arkhan Asylum]

I have the develo kit, and the hardware, and it doesn't do much of anything except amuse me for about an hour.


The book however, is wildly useful.   You can thank Develo for Squirrel.

I wants the book, is there a pdf version of it somewhere out there?

yeah.  I don't remember the link.   If noone posts it, PM me, and I can email it or something.   Its like 80mb IIRC.   

[spenoza]

So the official tools were all assembly? Figures. You'd think they'd at least make a nod to higher level programming languages.

[Arkhan Asylum]

you could code in BASIC if you want.

Really though, with proper tools and real documentation, doing the entire game in all assembly wouldn't even be that bad.

Not to mention, doing things in C would've required an entire library (like HuC), and its still C, so it's fairly slow with 6502-based CPUs. 

[OldMan]

You'd think they'd at least make a nod to higher level programming languages

Which one?
C (and all of it's derivatives) was still on the drawing board.
Fortran - maybe. Cobol - maybe. Pascal ? And have the game bomb out all the time?
None of those are suitable for games, though.

So yeah, your choices were Basic or assembler. And -lots- of games were written back then with a Basic shell calling (poked in) assembler routines....

[spenoza]

You'd think they'd at least make a nod to higher level programming languages

Which one?
C (and all of it's derivatives) was still on the drawing board.
Fortran - maybe. Cobol - maybe. Pascal ? And have the game bomb out all the time?
None of those are suitable for games, though.

So yeah, your choices were Basic or assembler. And -lots- of games were written back then with a Basic shell calling (poked in) assembler routines....

I can understand why they would have chosen not to go with C. It wasn't standardized until the late 80s, but the language itself was documented and in use as early as the mid 70s. As for being on the drawing board, well, standardization does not take something off the drawing board, and just because something isn't internationally recognized as standardized doesn't mean it isn't fairly stable and developed. But that is neither here nor there.

Not all versions of Pascal were unstable. Pascal actually would have been a safe choice. It was a pretty good precursor to C in some ways.

[Arkhan Asylum]

Until something's standardized, using it for a video game console's primary development language seems like a really bad idea.


also, Pascal is... pascal.

People use Pascal on the MSX to try making games.   It goes poorly.   You might as well just use BASIC.

[spenoza]

No, I concede that point. My experience with Pascal was on the Apple II. I found it to be more powerful than BASIC by a good bit, but I didn't get very far with it. Most programming materials were for BASIC and most of the programs printed in the magazines were also BASIC, so that's where I spent a great deal more time. I'm not familiar with the memory footprint of compiled Pascal code (obviously depends on the compiler), but it did seem to perform well on the 6502 in the Apple II series.

[NightWolve]

Oh and yes, btw... it will be multidisc. Like PS1 Final Fantasy 7, it's three CDs in size. I do believe that it will be the first multidisc PCE game ever. I have already implemented its disc swap code. It's broken into three large chapters; one per disc.

Wow, you already planned this far ahead that you know right now that you'll need 3 discs ?? How much is dedicated to redbook audio ?

[PCEngineHell]

It took the "pros" an extra 8 megs to fit the SNES SSFII onto Genesis. I don't know why anyone would demand more from honebrewers.

Genesis Super SF II had more voice samples though if I remember right. The Snes port is missing some.

[spenoza]

It took the "pros" an extra 8 megs to fit the SNES SSFII onto Genesis. I don't know why anyone would demand more from honebrewers.

Genesis Super SF II had more voice samples though if I remember right. The Snes port is missing some.

Lot of good it did them. They sounded like shit.

[arromdee]

People keep saying you can get an arcade card for $20.  I have an original TG-16 CD with a super system card, so if I get an Arcade Card I'd need the Pro.  Where can a Pro be bought for $20?

[turboswimbz]

People keep saying you can get an arcade card for $20.  I have an original TG-16 CD with a super system card, so if I get an Arcade Card I'd need the Pro.  Where can a Pro be bought for $20?

Assuming you have everything needed to run the card in the US system:
You won't unless you get a great deal.  Arcade Card duo - loose is 20 and 30 complete - > pro is around 55-60 (EDIT:) COMPLETE. Both + shipping - which may have to come form Japan.

[VestCunt]

People keep saying you can get an arcade card for $20.  I have an original TG-16 CD with a super system card, so if I get an Arcade Card I'd need the Pro.  Where can a Pro be bought for $20?

Assuming you have everything needed to run the card in the US system:
You won't unless you get a great deal.  Arcade Card duo - loose is 20 and 30 complete - > pro is around 55-60 loose. Both + shipping - which may have to come form Japan.

Arromdee - Yeah, any quotes for $20 Arcade cards you've seen are probably referring to the Duo, not the Pro.

That said, Swimbz estimates on a loose Pro are rather high: Hit Japan has a CIB Pro for $60 and they usually accept offers for 20% less. Also remember that this is a month-old BIN; wait a few months for the right auction and you can do better, especially loose.

Japangamestock used to have 'em loose for $20, but that was years ago. Still... they might be worth checking once in a while.

[turboswimbz]

People keep saying you can get an arcade card for $20.  I have an original TG-16 CD with a super system card, so if I get an Arcade Card I'd need the Pro.  Where can a Pro be bought for $20?

Assuming you have everything needed to run the card in the US system:
You won't unless you get a great deal.  Arcade Card duo - loose is 20 and 30 complete - > pro is around 55-60 loose. Both + shipping - which may have to come form Japan.

Arromdee - Yeah, any quotes for $20 Arcade cards you've seen are probably referring to the Duo, not the Pro.

That said, Swimbz estimates on a loose Pro are rather high: Hit Japan has a CIB Pro for $60 and they usually accept offers for 20% less. Also remember that this is a month-old BIN; wait a few months for the right auction and you can do better, especially loose.

Japangamestock used to have 'em loose for $20, but that was years ago. Still... they might be worth checking once in a while.

My bad: Hitjapan had one up that was a loosey at that price.  I'm then assuming they'd take quite a bit less for a loos one then 40 to 45 ish?  anyone get a pro recently?