PC-FX homebrew development.

elmer · 01/26/2015, 03:40 PM

I've done enough research now to have a good idea of what the PC-FX is capable of ... and it does have it's interesting aspects.

But looking around ... as far as I can see, nobody has really attempted to do any PC-FX development since the early 2000's.

Even Mednafen's 2007 spurt of interest is still based on the Japanese GCC work done in 2000/2001.

Is this machine totally dead?

If I spend the time trying to get a C compiler working for the PC-FX ... does anyone even care anymore?

BigusSchmuck · 01/26/2015, 04:44 PM

Quote from: elmer on 01/26/2015, 03:40 PMI've done enough research now to have a good idea of what the PC-FX is capable of ... and it does have it's interesting aspects.

But looking around ... as far as I can see, nobody has really attempted to do any PC-FX development since the early 2000's.

Even Mednafen's 2007 spurt of interest is still based on the Japanese GCC work done in 2000/2001.

Is this machine totally dead?

If I spend the time trying to get a C compiler working for the PC-FX ... does anyone even care anymore?

It would be interesting to see if it is feasible to port over PCE games on it and possibly give them a graphical overhaul.. But I'm not sure how alike both platforms are and if it is too complicated might as well do pc ports.

NecroPhile · 01/26/2015, 04:44 PM

I'd be all over some sexy PC-FX homebrew!!!

But there's only a couple hundred thousand of these things in existence, compared to millions of PCE (or even more FEKA and SNERD shat), so your potential audience is definitely smaller. If excitement for PC-FX translations is any indication, you'd certainly garner some healthy interest; and if you made something gaijin friendly and fun, I bet you'd even convice a few guys that they need to buy a PC-FX.

wildfruit · 01/26/2015, 05:00 PM

Something neutopia like would be interesting. With some snazzy spell effects.

esteban · 01/26/2015, 05:54 PM

I don't know the state of PC-FX emulation... But if it is robust, that certainly helps the potential audience your work will reach.

I personally would love stuff for PC-FX, but I don't own one (yet!).

I do enjoy the soundtrack for Miraculum, though.

elmer · 01/26/2015, 06:27 PM

Quote from: BigusSchmuck on 01/26/2015, 04:44 PMIt would be interesting to see if it is feasible to port over PCE games on it and possibly give them a graphical overhaul.. But I'm not sure how alike both platforms are and if it is too complicated might as well do pc ports.

Well ... you've got the same HuC6270 video chip that the PCE uses in there ... but with double the memory (128KB instead of 64KB).

Then you've got a 2nd HuC6270 video chip in there, so it's like a SuperGrafx ... but with a total of 256KB instead of 128KB.

Then you've got the same sound chip in there (with a couple of enhancements).

And you've got 2MB of main memory, so it's like having an Arcade Card build in.

On top of that you've got the "KING" chip with another 4 background layers (including 1 with rotation/scaling) and it's own 1MB of memory.

Then, lastly, you've got the MPEG video-playback layer ... phew!

So PCE ports would mainly be case of recoding the logic from 6502 assembler into V810 assembler or C ... you could actually keep the basic graphics/flow nearly identical to the PCE, and then make whatever enhancements you want at you leisure.

The big question is ... who has the passion to do that, and with which games?

elmer · 01/26/2015, 07:14 PM

Quote from: guest on 01/26/2015, 04:44 PMI'd be all over some sexy PC-FX homebrew!!!

But would you, and the active developers here, really want to write some?

It should be possible to create a USB-based Develo-like system that talks to a retail PC-FX through the 2nd joypad port.

The Saturn guys apparently have a GDB debugger running over the Action Replay Pro's PC comms port ... so the same thing should be possible with the PC-FX through the joypad port.

It should be much easier than the PCE's Develo-board since the PC-FX hardware natively supports output through the joypad port.

That would work on a modern PC and avoid the need for an expensive-and-rare PC-FX GA board.

The GCC work that the Japanese fans did in 2000/2001 was to re-implement V810 support in GCC based upon the existing V850 support.

The main CPU in the PC-FX is the NEC V810, and the V850 is it's big brother that was developed at approximately the same time ... they are about 90% similar (from a compiler's point of view).

The V850 is still sold for the embedded market and is currently supported by GCC ... although I'm not sure that there's much reason to go more recent than GCC 3.4.6 in order to get a solid C99 implementation.

But it's all a significant amount of work to develop and put together ... for a machine that sold less than 200,000 units and had so few games that people care about.

Quote from: guest on 01/26/2015, 04:44 PMIf excitement for PC-FX translations is any indication, you'd certainly garner some healthy interest; and if you made something gaijin friendly and fun, I bet you'd even convice a few guys that they need to buy a PC-FX.

I can certainly see the value in translations that run on the original platform hardware ... that's a work of love and honor for the original creations.

But do enough people really care about new stuff for the PC-FX that they want to drag developer's attention away from PCE homebrew or (sorry to offend you

) Saturn homebrew?

ParanoiaDragon · 01/27/2015, 01:33 AM

Personally, I can't get super excited about PC-FX homebrew. If we had a lot more going on(& released) for the PCE, I'd feel more interested in it.

Arkhan Asylum · 01/27/2015, 01:50 AM

The dev tools and library are sort of non-existantish, for starts.

I would love to do PC-FX development.

I had a few ideas for games, but without a competent library to work with, it'd be a giant pain in the penis parts.'

I should really finish the PCFX Tome of Obey. Atlantean and making games kinda sucked up all my time.

SamIAm · 01/27/2015, 04:00 AM

On a console called the PC-FX, with a design that's intended to look just like a PC tower and everything, it would be neat to get a little collection of classic DOS games. I don't know how practical it would really be, but I would love to play a little Gorillas or Aldo's Adventure on PC-FX.

ParanoiaDragon · 01/27/2015, 04:33 AM

King's Quest.

NecroPhile · 01/27/2015, 10:45 AM

Quote from: elmer on 01/26/2015, 07:14 PMBut would you, and the active developers here, really want to write some?

I have no coding or pixel art abilities, so my involvement is limited to beta testing and buying the game when it's done, and I'd be just as happy to do that for either PCE or PC-FX.

Quote from: elmer on 01/26/2015, 07:14 PMBut do enough people really care about new stuff for the PC-FX that they want to drag developer's attention away from PCE homebrew or (sorry to offend you ) Saturn homebrew?

I give zero fucks about anything on the Saturn, but I wouldn't want anyone to abandon a PCE project just to do something else (anything else really, be it PC-FX, some other PCE game, etc.). If they're starting out and looking to do a project on either the PCE or the PC-FX, I'm behind either platform; the dev should pick the platform that interests them most, as game making on either is a work of passion and will never be a money maker.

elmer · 01/27/2015, 10:58 AM

Quote from: SamIAm on 01/27/2015, 04:00 AMOn a console called the PC-FX, with a design that's intended to look just like a PC tower and everything, it would be neat to get a little collection of classic DOS games. I don't know how practical it would really be, but I would love to play a little Gorillas or Aldo's Adventure on PC-FX.

Sorry, but I have trouble understanding where you're coming from with this. I may be missing something ...

Why not just buy a RaspberryPI and run DOSBOX on it? You could even put it in a PC-FX case if you like.

I believe that WindyCity is considering importing some PC-FXs in his next batch, and I'd suspect that he could get you a junker-machine's case pretty cheap.

What is there about running those games on 1994 console that's appealing? Seriously, I'm not trying to dis you ... just to understand.

NecroPhile · 01/27/2015, 11:04 AM

I'm having a hard time understanding your point. With your logic, nobody should make anything for the PCE either, as there are other platforms with better technical specs and larger audiences.

elmer · 01/27/2015, 11:23 AM

Quote from: Psycho Arkhan on 01/27/2015, 01:50 AMThe dev tools and library are sort of non-existantish, for starts.

I would love to do PC-FX development.

I had a few ideas for games, but without a competent library to work with, it'd be a giant pain in the penis parts.'

I only just saw your old post on AtariAge ...

Quotehttp://atariage.com/forums/topic/200921-pc-fx-homebrew/

Arkhan OFFLINE

Posted Wed Aug 1, 2012 9:14 AM
No. There's not much of anything.

None of the PCE developers are actively doing any PCFX development, and we're probably the best people for the job, all things considered.

I've got the official dev kit, and the unofficial library that sort-of works.

It's not worth the time investment and effort, so I passed on it to continue doing PCE instead.

As you're one of the most committed current PCE developers ... I guess that I'll probably just follow your lead and let the PC-FX rest in peace.

elmer · 01/27/2015, 11:49 AM

Quote from: guest on 01/27/2015, 10:45 AMI give zero fucks about anything on the Saturn, but I wouldn't want anyone to abandon a PCE project just to do something else (anything else really, be it PC-FX, some other PCE game, etc.). If they're starting out and looking to do a project on either the PCE or the PC-FX, I'm behind either platform; the dev should pick the platform that interests them most, as game making on either is a work of passion and will never be a money maker.

I think that's the wisest comment that I've heard in a while ... developing on these old consoles today is all about interest and passion ... and it looks like there's very little passion for the PC-FX.

Basically, I have both interest and passion for the PCE.

I played a friend's PCE-CD back in the day when it blew away everything else on the market, and I pre-ordered a SuperGrafx as soon as I heard that it was going to be released (I've still got both it and the receipt!).

The PC-FX has been a distraction because I love to learn how things work and what they're capable of ... but I don't have that personal connection to it that rises to that level of passion that you so wisely define as needed to sustain development through the boring/frustrating parts of a project.

I watched a complete Zeroigar playthrough on YouTube last night ... it looks like even Hudson didn't have much passion for the PC-FX.

The game looks like a cancelled SuperGrafx SCD project that was resurrected for the PC-FX and then had the level 1 boss recoded to use the PC-FX's transparency and scaling. Everything else is basically done within the SGX's limits and doesn't seem to use the PC-FX's extra capabilities.

Comparing it to Sapphire on the PCE ... well that was a game whose developers showed interest, passion and extreme capability!

elmer · 01/27/2015, 11:58 AM

Quote from: guest on 01/27/2015, 11:04 AMI'm having a hard time understanding your point. With your logic, nobody should make anything for the PCE either, as there are other platforms with better technical specs and larger audiences.

I think that you are spot-on with your earlier comment ... it's all about having a passion for the subject.

That passion is a very, very personal thing.

If SamIAm wants to play DOS games on a PC-FX ... then he has every right to have that desire. I'm not dissing it ... I just don't share it.

What I do have is a passion for the PCE ... and although the PC-FX has been an interesting distraction, the PCE is the real reason that I'm here.

Arkhan Asylum · 01/27/2015, 01:08 PM

It's not that there is no passion, it's that there's no tool set for us to do anything, and making those is a royal punch in the dicktip.

NecroPhile · 01/27/2015, 01:11 PM

He's confused his lack of passion for everyone else not giving a fuck.

elmer · 01/27/2015, 01:45 PM

Quote from: guest on 01/27/2015, 01:08 PMIt's not that there is no passion, it's that there's no tool set for us to do anything, and making those is a royal punch in the dicktip.

May I ask exactly which parts of a toolchain you'd need?

Trying to get the Japanese GCC built is so annoying that it has become a bit of a personal challenge ... so I'm willing to give it another couple of days if that would make a difference (I hate the GNU build process!).

elmer · 01/27/2015, 02:11 PM

Quote from: guest on 01/27/2015, 01:11 PMHe's confused his lack of passion for everyone else not giving a fuck.

Quite possibly.

My personal passion is for shmups ... and I just gave my impression of Zeroigar earlier.

If there are games on the PC-FX that you love ... then I'm sure that you'd be happy to see some new development for it.

Arkhan Asylum · 01/27/2015, 02:28 PM

Quote from: elmer on 01/27/2015, 01:45 PM
Quote from: Psycho Arkhan on 01/27/2015, 01:08 PMIt's not that there is no passion, it's that there's no tool set for us to do anything, and making those is a royal punch in the dicktip.
May I ask exactly which parts of a toolchain you'd need?

Trying to get the Japanese GCC built is so annoying that it has become a bit of a personal challenge ... so I'm willing to give it another couple of days if that would make a difference (I hate the GNU build process!).

A meaningful library to communicate with the hardware, in C, would be good. I think there was some stuff floating around awhile back but it was not anything horribly amazing and useful.

a compiler that can compile C code into runnable PCFX code is also important.

OldRover · 01/27/2015, 05:55 PM

The mednafen author and trap15 had been working on a PC-FX toolchain but I don't know what happened to it. I had started to document it on the original obeybrew.com but that was one section I didn't rewrite when I put it back up after it was hacked. They had developed a library called liberis. I added a high-level abstraction layer to make it work more like HuC for those who were already familiar with PCE coding. This was all some time ago though. trap15 had multiple examples of simple applications running on the PC-FX, including an input test and some picture display code.

elmer · 01/27/2015, 06:24 PM

Quote from: OldRover on 01/27/2015, 05:55 PMThe mednafen author and trap15 had been working on a PC-FX toolchain but I don't know what happened to it. I had started to document it on the original obeybrew.com but that was one section I didn't rewrite when I put it back up after it was hacked. They had developed a library called liberis. I added a high-level abstraction layer to make it work more like HuC for those who were already familiar with PCE coding. This was all some time ago though. trap15 had multiple examples of simple applications running on the PC-FX, including an input test and some picture display code.

Thanks for the pointer. Looks like Alex is still doing some work on it ... the last commit was only a few months ago.

bitbucket.org/trap15/liberis

Now I need to look at his docs and see what compiler he's using.

EvilEvoIX · 01/27/2015, 06:26 PM

Could the PC-FX handle a game like Marvel Vs. Streetfighter and the like?

Arkhan Asylum · 01/27/2015, 06:27 PM

Yeah if that stuff gets somewhere more usable, I'd be interested.

DeshDildo · 01/27/2015, 06:48 PM

If a homebrew scene developed and started spitting out games for the PC-FX it would give me a reason to buy one. I want one just because it's a funky and cool looking system but then I look at the library and say WTF? I can't read Japanese and I don't like dating sims.

OldRover · 01/27/2015, 07:38 PM

iirc, it is based on gcc 2.9.5.

elmer · 01/27/2015, 07:46 PM

Quote from: elmer on 01/27/2015, 06:24 PMNow I need to look at his docs and see what compiler he's using.

Well, the indications are that he's using GCC, so I'm guessing that it would be Mednafen's 2007 build based on the Japanese GCC 2.95.2 mods but with newlib added.

I wonder if they ever moved up to a more modern version of GCC?

Hahaha ... I just saw that OldRover already answered the question while I was writing this message!

GCC 2.95.x is a total swine to compile on modern machines ... it uses illegal language features that were removed from modern GCC 4.x compilers.

OldRover · 01/27/2015, 10:05 PM

afaik, moving to a more modern version wasn't possible due to a lack of V810 support or summat.

elmer · 01/27/2015, 10:28 PM

Quote from: OldRover on 01/27/2015, 10:05 PMafaik, moving to a more modern version wasn't possible due to a lack of V810 support or summat.

Neither GCC 2.95 nor any of the more modern versions actually natively support the NEC V810 ... but even the latest GCC versions support the NEC V850.

From what I can see the Japanese guys that hacked the V810 support into GCC 2.95 just based it on the existing V850 support. Remember ... when they did it, GCC 2.95 was the latest version of GCC.

It *may* be relatively straightforward to use the same methodology to add V810 support in a more-modern version of GCC.

I have now managed to build a V850 GCC 3.4.6 cross-compiler that seems to compile some test V850 code correctly.

The next step is to see if I can patch it to add the support for the V810.

It may not work, but it seems to be worth an attempt in order to get a more-modern toolchain.

deubeul · 01/28/2015, 06:18 AM

Just adding my 2 cents but I've always dreamed of a GOT II and a Nexzr II on the FX, with tons of sfx, parallaxes and crazy FMW backgrounds.

Arkhan Asylum · 01/28/2015, 03:49 PM

If I made a PC-FX game, it would involve tentacles and tits, as opposed to shooterings.

NecroPhile · 01/28/2015, 04:08 PM

Why not all of the above, ark? Steam Hearts' FX.

elmer · 02/14/2015, 05:42 PM

Here's a little PC-FX love for Valentine's Day ...

The liberis examples are now compiling (and running on Mednafen) with my V810-patched GCC 3.4.6 and binutils 2.18.

That's 6-years of compiler changes/improvements over the previous GCC 2.95.2.

Next up ... moving the V810-support forward another 8-years to GCC 4.7.4, with fully standards-compliant C99 support!

OldRover · 02/15/2015, 07:39 AM

Awesome possum.

shawnji · 02/15/2015, 05:29 PM

EDIT: Sorry, wrong thread...

elmer · 02/23/2015, 09:22 PM

Quote from: elmer on 02/14/2015, 05:42 PMNext up ... moving the V810-support forward another 8-years to GCC 4.7.4, with fully standards-compliant C99 support!

Hmmmm ... small hiccup with GCC 4.7.4 ... the V850 guys changed the system ABI in 2010, and so liberis won't run without modification. I'm still trying to decide how to handle that, and if there's any advantage in using the new ABI on the PC-FX's V810.

In the meantime, I have binutils 2.22 and GCC 4.5.4 compiling V810 code, and have the liberis demo programs running on mednafen's PC-FX eumulation with that combo.

Since GCC 4.5.4 was released in 2012, I'm still going to claim 12 years of improvements over the old Japanese GCC 2.95.2.

Early days, though, and lots more testing to do ... but good progress.

Arkhan Asylum · 03/03/2015, 01:37 PM

If this ever gets to where something usable exists with some libraries, count me in.

I'm not the type to sit and write system libraries, because I have too many game ideas/things to be working on instead.

It's a good thing Elmer exists, lol.

elmer · 03/03/2015, 07:56 PM

Quote from: guest on 03/03/2015, 01:37 PMI'm not the type to sit and write system libraries, because I have too many game ideas/things to be working on instead.

We all have our strengths and weaknesses, interests and things that bore us.

Yes, I'm one of those people that are happy to work on tools, but I'm afraid that libraries bore the heck out of me ... I rather just get on with writing a game.

Quote from: guest on 03/03/2015, 01:37 PMIf this ever gets to where something usable exists with some libraries, count me in.

There is a modern C99 compiler, a set of low-level hardware and CD access libraries, and the tools to make a bootable PC-FX .bin/.cue CD image.

That's all that I need to write a game.

I want a good debugger, so I'll try to do something about that, too ... but higher level libraries ... not my thing, I'm afraid.

I'm trying to help open things up a bit to make it easier for anyone that comes after me ... just like the Japanese PC-FX guys did in 2000, and Alex Marshall has been doing for the last few years ... but I have no interest in providing an entire game engine library.

I'll just develop a game instead, and then release the source. Anyone that's interested will be able to pick it apart to grab what they like from a working example.

I have no firm timescale for that.

If someone that does like writing libraries wants what I've done so far, then they just have to ask.

Arkhan Asylum · 03/04/2015, 02:07 AM

Yeah, because of my current PCE, MSX, and PC investments, I don't really have a strong urge to dive into the lowest level possibly library possible to start getting somewhere. Maybe when a lot of this stuff wraps up, I could put time into writing useful libraries.

but as it stands now, it'd just be taking away from me working on stuff people want to play already. Nope.

OldRover · 03/06/2015, 09:56 PM

I can normally write libraries from working examples, so I might be able to throw my hat into the ring here. I would just need a solid base to work from. Injecting new life into the PC-FX has long been a dream of mine, and trap15's work was as close as I have gotten to realizing that dream. Thus, if you are able to get a more modern build of gcc working (doesn't have to be cutting edge... that 2012 build is just fine), I can probably run with it.

Arkhan Asylum · 03/07/2015, 12:07 AM

Quote from: The Old Rover on 03/06/2015, 09:56 PMI can normally write libraries from working examples, so I might be able to throw my hat into the ring here. I would just need a solid base to work from. Injecting new life into the PC-FX has long been a dream of mine, and trap15's work was as close as I have gotten to realizing that dream. Thus, if you are able to get a more modern build of gcc working (doesn't have to be cutting edge... that 2012 build is just fine), I can probably run with it.

And then comes some sort of game for such a niche system.

My tentacle-rape-pirate-shooter-dating sim is likely the best fit for the system.

The thing has a very specific library, so it needs very specific titles.

elmer · 03/07/2015, 01:45 PM

Quote from: OldRover on 03/06/2015, 09:56 PMI can normally write libraries from working examples, so I might be able to throw my hat into the ring here. I would just need a solid base to work from. Injecting new life into the PC-FX has long been a dream of mine, and trap15's work was as close as I have gotten to realizing that dream. Thus, if you are able to get a more modern build of gcc working (doesn't have to be cutting edge... that 2012 build is just fine), I can probably run with it.

Thank you ... I'm sure that everyone would appreciate the time and effort that you'd be putting in to it.

You are welcome to the compiler any time that you wish ... or you can wait a bit longer until I verify more of the nooks-and-crannies.

There really isn't much improvement between GCC 4.5.4 and 4.7.4 when it comes to plain-old-C ... I'm disabling the whole-program-optimization in GCC 4.7.4 anyway, because it's been reported to be a bit problematic until they fixed things in 4.8 and 4.9.

I can see about doing my "starter" project on the PC-FX as well as the PCE.

It's going to look a little underwhelming on the PC-FX ... but I should be able to at least try to use most of the PC-FX's systems, even if it could be done without them.

I wish that I could find an artist as good as Black Tiger to enhance the original Amiga/Arcade graphics for both the PCE and PC-FX, since I suspect that the original artist is too busy with paying work these days ... but the game did get an award at the time, so it's not like they're actually bad.

The whole thing would hopefully still be able to serve as a programming example that you could use to help kick start some higher level libraries to go on top of liberis.

I hope that you'd be willing to release any library work under the same MIT license that Alex (trap15) is using for liberis.

OldRover · 03/07/2015, 08:08 PM

Licenses have never concerned me very much. I am even quite content to release things under the WTFPL. I'll wait until you have a stable system though. Hopefully, it'll work in Windows... I couldn't give a rat's hairy ass about Linux, and I know I'm not alone there.

elmer · 03/08/2015, 11:42 AM

QuoteI'll wait until you have a stable system though. Hopefully, it'll work in Windows... I couldn't give a rat's hairy ass about Linux, and I know I'm not alone there.

Makes sense to wait a bit ... there's no rush. Yes, Windows is the primary target ... I can work in Linux, and love some of the tools, but I prefer Windows.

It needs msys2 (sort-of-linux-on-windows) in order to compile things like GCC and Mednafen ... but I really don't want you to have to run that in order to develop for the PCE or PC-FX.

Arkhan Asylum · 03/09/2015, 12:07 AM

I am not sure what you intend to put on PC-FX elmer, but please don't let it be an Amiga game.

There a 5 extra buttons on the controller.

elmer · 03/16/2015, 02:40 PM

Some new toys finally arrived this morning

I'm seeing 2 controllers there that don't look like they have 5 extra buttons!

Not all games work best with a joypad ... even if a joypad is still a "supported" option.

Arkhan Asylum · 03/16/2015, 09:13 PM

Quote from: elmer on 03/16/2015, 02:40 PMSome new toys finally arrived this morning

I'm seeing 2 controllers there that don't look like they have 5 extra buttons!

Not all games work best with a joypad ... even if a joypad is still a "supported" option.

Yes, thank you for pointing out the obvious fact that a mouse isn't a controller and that they don't function like one, lol.

The PC-FX is sorely lacking in action games, so I would've hoped you'd carry that torch instead of making a clicky game that we have plenty of already.

I doubt you'll be able to top a game like Pia Carrot, especially if you're going to redo an Amiga game on PC-FX, lol. It'd be lacking two things: Quality, and Titties.

I myself am against putting most Amiga eurowank nonsense on my beloved PC-FX, though.

Just out of curiosity, how well versed are you in the PC-FX's library? I ask only because you may want to get on that before you try filling voids or putting similar stuff on the thing. It's basically a niche machine that lacks in quality Japanese action games, but to me has a certain flavor to it that needs to be upheld.

elmer · 03/16/2015, 11:05 PM

Quote from: guest on 03/16/2015, 09:13 PMYes, thank you for pointing out the obvious fact that a mouse isn't a controller and that they don't function like one, lol.

You're wrong there ... a mouse is a controller ... and so is a joypad ... there's a difference between the generic "controller" term and the specific case. If you ever develop a title on a platform that has strict manufacturer's standards (including terminology) ... then you'll learn to tell the difference.

Yes, I know what you meant ... but your language was imprecise, and that gave me a loophole ... so I took advantage of it.

QuoteThe PC-FX is sorely lacking in action games, so I would've hoped you'd carry that torch instead of making a clicky game that we have plenty of already.

Since you obviously don't have a clue of what I'm thinking of doing ... is there some reason that you're being so negative?